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On God-Breathed Scriptures


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35 minutes ago, Raf said:

Which is how Jews felt about Paul.

Identical.

There is a huge percentage of people I notice on Reddit exmormon and exjw channels that move from a strong belief to the rejection of any supernatural belief at all.

I would estimate at 60-70 percent.

I understand I accept I don’t want to criticize that choice in any fashion.  I myself did not choose that path and am solid in my choice.

I think the Jews as well as early Christians felt many things about Paul.  In Jerusalem he was not accepted at all but they looked for his circumcision in the bathroom stalls.  The Christians.

I have met some pretty sharp Rabbis with respect to scripture logic.  Have really enjoyed discussions with 2 rabbis in different towns.  The Talmud is super interesting.

 

 

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And ultimately they reject the New Testament as God-breathed on the same grounds that you reject PFAL. They reject the writers and the profitability of their message. It's uncanny. 

 

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9 hours ago, Raf said:

And ultimately they reject the New Testament as God-breathed on the same grounds that you reject PFAL. They reject the writers and the profitability of their message. It's uncanny. 

 

What is uncanny is your ability to see into all the people I’ve interacted with and tell me their thoughts.

 

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The reasons for Jewish rejection of the inspiration of New Testament scriptures are not mysteries that can only be revealed through individual interrogation. The idea that it takes mindreading skills to determine their thoughts on this question is ludicrous. We KNOW why Jews reject the New Testament.

They reject the authors' reliability, they reject the interpretation of the Old Testament and they see the New Testament as the inspiration behind centuries of anti-Semitism. This is not mindreading, it's history.

Just like you reject PFAL because of its author's unreliability, its interpretation of the scriptures you hold sacred, and its inspiration of decades of abuse.

The parallels are not invented for the sake of a thread.

But please, go back to your Jewish sources and tell me two things:

1. What reasons do they give for their rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament?

2. Do you not reject PFAL as God-breathed for precisely the exact same reasons?

 

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30 minutes ago, Raf said:

The reasons for Jewish rejection of the inspiration of New Testament scriptures are not mysteries that can only be revealed through individual interrogation. The idea that it takes mindreading skills to determine their thoughts on this question is ludicrous. We KNOW why Jews reject the New Testament.

They reject the authors' reliability, they reject the interpretation of the Old Testament and they see the New Testament as the inspiration behind centuries of anti-Semitism. This is not mindreading, it's history.

Just like you reject PFAL because of its author's unreliability, its interpretation of the scriptures you hold sacred, and its inspiration of decades of abuse.

The parallels are not invented for the sake of a thread.

But please, go back to your Jewish sources and tell me two things:

1. What reasons do they give for their rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament?

2. Do you not reject PFAL as God-breathed for precisely the exact same reasons?

 

1. They don’t accept the Messiah.  Or most don’t.  There are Messianic Jews who do.  And those don’t reject inspiration of NT.

2. No

 

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56 minutes ago, Raf said:

That answer is a dodge.

They don't accept the Messiah BECAUSE they don't accept the inspiration of the NT, not the other way around. 

With respect, your recent posts on this thread suggest you have NOT dropped your stake in this subject years ago.

The purpose of discussion is not to win. Chockful isn't likely to change your position, unless something like happened to Paul on the road to Damascus happens to you. Likewise, you're not going to change his position unless...

IOW, why do your comments sound like you haven't let go of the subject?

I don't GAF what anyone's position is on this topic. I just feel compelled to make the point about discussion not being a contact sport.

:love3: 

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1 hour ago, Raf said:

That answer is a dodge.

They don't accept the Messiah BECAUSE they don't accept the inspiration of the NT, not the other way around. 

Im not being persnickty here, but just connecting a few historical dots. Of all the groups in Judea at the time (Sadducess, Herodians, Scribes, Pharisees, Sanhedrin, Zealots, etc) the group that won the support of the people and therefore survived the day was the Pharisees. The Pharisees is the main group that had Jesus Christ crucified. They rejected Jesus as the Messiach. It was from the Pharisees that modern day Judaism took it's roots. That rejection stayed put and if anything gained steam as Christianity gained steam. So it wasnt so much a rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament but a blanket rejection of anything to do with Jesus Christ, and thus rejection of the New Testament surely followed as well as inspiration of anything else Christ like. Thats a summation from memory so I may be a tad bit off on a point or two so feel to correct as needed. I can provide some references later if you guys wanna read along. Peace!

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Rocky,

I'll engage in a conversation as long as there's a conversation in which to engage. 

"I dropped my stake in this argument a decade ago" is about the argument over whether the Bible is God-breathed and whether PFAL is God-breathed and what God-breathed even means.

That's NOT what this discussion and dialog have been about. What we're discussing here is the parallel between the arguments and methods used to defend or reject PFAL as compared to those used to reject and defend the Bible. I contend those methods are precisely the same. That's THIS discussion, and I never claimed to be uninterested in the conversation.

But you are correct: At some point the points are made and it's time to move on. 

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3 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Im not being persnickty here, but just connecting a few historical dots. Of all the groups in Judea at the time (Sadducess, Herodians, Scribes, Pharisees, Sanhedrin, Zealots, etc) the group that won the support of the people and therefore survived the day was the Pharisees. The Pharisees is the main group that had Jesus Christ crucified. They rejected Jesus as the Messiach. It was from the Pharisees that modern day Judaism took it's roots. That rejection stayed put and if anything gained steam as Christianity gained steam. So it wasnt so much a rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament but a blanket rejection of anything to do with Jesus Christ, and thus rejection of the New Testament surely followed as well as inspiration of anything else Christ like. Thats a summation from memory so I may be a tad bit off on a point or two so feel to correct as needed. I can provide some references later if you guys wanna read along. Peace!

Ok, let's go there.

WHY did the Pharisees reject Jesus as Messiah?

 

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3 minutes ago, Raf said:

Ok, let's go there.

WHY did the Pharisees reject Jesus as Messiah?

 

They were interested in retaining their own power and influence, Jesus rejected what he called the traditions of men, which was basically the Babylonian Talmud and the oral traditions of the elders, which the Pharisees held in higher regard than Torah. I mean there's more...you want all or is just a couple clif notes sufficient?

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Ok, so we have the Torah (the Bible) and the Babylonian Talmud/traditions of men (PFAL) and the Pharisees rejected Jesus because he rejected the Babylonian Talmud (PFAL) and thereby posed a threat to their power and influence. The Pharisees in this comparison are Mike, minus the Power and Influence, as he has none. 

I think Power and Influence is where my analogy falls apart, because we in this conversation do not really have any, so we're more of the laity than "Pharisees" or The Vatican. 

But I wouldn't presume that anyone in this group rejects PFAL as God-breathed merely because some higher-up is pressuring us to maintain power.

I would contend, nonetheless, that 2,000 someodd years later, no Jews are worried about maintaining Pharasaic power and influence. If you ask them, they reject Jesus on scriptural grounds. They don't reject the New Testament because they reject Jesus. It's the other way around.

But that's my contention and I have no qualms if you decline to embrace it.

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4 minutes ago, Raf said:

Ok, so we have the Torah (the Bible) and the Babylonian Talmud/traditions of men (PFAL) and the Pharisees rejected Jesus because he rejected the Babylonian Talmud (PFAL) and thereby posed a threat to their power and influence. The Pharisees in this comparison are Mike, minus the Power and Influence, as he has none. 

I think Power and Influence is where my analogy falls apart, because we in this conversation do not really have any, so we're more of the laity than "Pharisees" or The Vatican. 

But I wouldn't presume that anyone in this group rejects PFAL as God-breathed merely because some higher-up is pressuring us to maintain power.

I would contend, nonetheless, that 2,000 someodd years later, no Jews are worried about maintaining Pharasaic power and influence. If you ask them, they reject Jesus on scriptural grounds. They don't reject the New Testament because they reject Jesus. It's the other way around.

But that's my contention and I have no qualms if you decline to embrace it.

What I stated is historical. That's about it.

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It was historical. Would you agree that it was an oversimplified history that did not fully account for Pharisaic devotion to the Torah, or that the Talmud was developed by people who loved and cherished and revered the Torah? And that the Pharisees' interpretation of Torah was at odds with multiple sects, not just Jesus, and that they genuinely thought they were right? Or do you think they just wanted power and had no sincere faith in Yahweh?

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1 minute ago, Raf said:

was historical. Would you agree that it was an oversimplified history that did not fully account

I stated that initially. Look...I'm not here to spar with you. I get my full with that with Mike and less and less at that. 

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38 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

They were interested in retaining their own power and influence, Jesus rejected what he called the traditions of men, which was basically the Babylonian Talmud and the oral traditions of the elders, which the Pharisees held in higher regard than Torah. I mean there's more...you want all or is just a couple clif notes sufficient?

 

7 minutes ago, Raf said:

Ok, as long as we're agreed on that :wave:

We already were. Goof goof.

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Weren’t the Pharisees, and other sects, expecting the messiah to be a kingly figure like David who would lead a military revolution to defeat the enemy (Romans?) and unite Israel? And it will be obvious to everyone who the messiah is when he appears?

The NT tells a story of a completely different messiah. Jesus is not depicted as a military statesman leading a revolution to defeat a geopolitical enemy and unite a nation. He’s depicted as an itinerant, peasant preacher, who is not apparent as messiah, even to his own followers.

I can agree that most Jews reject Jesus as messiah because they reject the NT.

 

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6 hours ago, Raf said:

The reasons for Jewish rejection of the inspiration of New Testament scriptures are not mysteries that can only be revealed through individual interrogation. The idea that it takes mindreading skills to determine their thoughts on this question is ludicrous. We KNOW why Jews reject the New Testament.

They reject the authors' reliability, they reject the interpretation of the Old Testament and they see the New Testament as the inspiration behind centuries of anti-Semitism. This is not mindreading, it's history.

Just like you reject PFAL because of its author's unreliability, its interpretation of the scriptures you hold sacred, and its inspiration of decades of abuse.

The parallels are not invented for the sake of a thread.

But please, go back to your Jewish sources and tell me two things:

1. What reasons do they give for their rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament?

2. Do you not reject PFAL as God-breathed for precisely the exact same reasons?

 

I will offer this opinion to try to summarize what Raf means, maybe its correct:   

The Jews rejected Jesus because they believed he was a liar and a con artist.

Former TWI members reject PFAL because they believe VPW was a liar and a con artist.

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Jesus was a Jew. His flowers were Jews. The early Jesus movement was comprised mostly of Jews.

Which Jews believed Jesus to be a liar and a con artist? The Jews depicted and characterized by the authors of the NT Gospels? Did these authors, writing in Greek two generations after Jesus' death, have an agenda? Were they, intentionally or not, advancing a narrative about Jews and their rebellion in the context of the War in 70CE?

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2 hours ago, Raf said:

Close enough

Except VP didn’t claim the PFAL class was God breathed.  Mike did.

This is vastly different than the Judeans rejecting the Messiah.  Also they didn’t reject scripture they rejected the canon of scripture that originated from the Messiah.  

Not close enough for a cigar.

Unless we are playing horse shoes and hand grenades.

I mean real honestly here I feel like I am being corralled or gaslighted into agreeing that it is the same logic rejecting the resident trolls position that PFAL is somehow more supernatural than even the teacher of it claims and the Jews rejecting Christ.

Ludicrous!

Edited by chockfull
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