God’s Budget and Double Doors .... On the Scarcity of Miracles

[oldiesman]

12 hours ago, Mike said:

God’s Budget and Double Doors

 

 

On the Scarcity of Miracles

 

 

 

 

 

Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?

 

 

I saw lots of signs and wonders in the early 1970s, some that benefitted me and some benefitting others, and maybe even a miracle or two.  This was on Long Island, just across a bridge from the Groovy Christians at Rye, NY.  The Word was hot then, and BOTH Jesus Christ and the class were talked up bigtime.  It was a genuine work of God.  The archives here have a couple of posts from Ralph D verifying this, as he too was in the middle of it all. This is undeniable.

 

 

But it is equally undeniable that NOT as many mighty signs, miracles, and wonders were being seen as the Seventies ended. Not coincidentally, by 1982 the Corps had taken over and was supervising most field work. In my most recent theory on this, the over-supervising and stifling influence of the Corps is characterizes lots of how TWI-1 phased out and TWI-2 phased in.

 

 

I think we have all agreed here, that since 1986, the higher up in leadership that you look, the less likelihood there is of seeing any signs, miracles, and wonders coming from their hands.

 

 

Most of what power I saw in the Seventies was associated with regular believers witnessing, running classes, under-shepherding new people, and splitting twigs.  That activity was hotter than hot on Long Island then, but when I moved to HQ in 1976 the local movement of the Word in New Knoxville was down to absolute zero. That was one of the reasons I left there two years later. I can hardly imagine the insularity and passage of 4 decades has only made that worse for the long-term residents at HQ. 

 

 

Because I had specialized in witnessing back on Long Island, I was able to sign up two locals in the New Knoxville area, and it was considered phenomenal by some on staff.  I had to send my sign-ups to Sidney, though, for fellowship and under-shepherding. Things were pretty dead in town, spiritually.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

But there is much more to the scarcity of miracles that I want to talk about here, than the ineptness of TWI.  I sense the scarcity of miracles is universal, almost regardless of people, and as if it were a law of some sort, with few exceptions.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

I have told this story once, but it bears repeating here.

 

 

Back in the day, on Long Island we had a wonderful new brother added to our Branch one day, pseudo-named George.  He was a super nice guy, always fun and laughing, and a real joy to be around.  He was meek and joined in on witnessing very well.  He was not all messed up and straining to be positive and renew his mind; he HAD it!  He seemed to be pretty well adjusted BEFORE taking the class, and just jumped in right away as a renewed mind believer.  I wish I had stayed there longer to get to know him better, and regret that I’ve been unable to find him.

 

 

George had one good arm and his other was completely withered from birth.  A tiny outline of a baby’s hand with some fingers could be seen protruding a tiny bit from his shoulder. He could hide it easily with a shirt, but in the Summertime we could often plainly see it.  He didn’t try to hide it, and seemed to be quite skilled at living without the arm.  He was active and got around well; an unforgettable guy.

 

 

When we would run a PFAL class, just EVERYONE held their breath during the part about the man with the withered hand. We all wanted to see George miraculously healed.  I think he went WoW or maybe in the Corps, but I’m not sure. 

 

 

But I do know for sure, that if George had ever gotten that new arm build by a miracle, I would CERTAINLY have heard about it from all my old Long Island friends.  Word about George would have traveled fast, fast, fast.  I think there are still a dozen of us still alive and friends on Facebook.

 

 

We did not see any such spectacular miracles. Maybe there were some, but word seemed to not get around much about them if they did happen.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

I have thought long and hard about this scarcity of miracles.

 

 

One hunch is that we grads have not yet really graduated to that level yet.

 

 

But that is ONLY PART of my thinking.
The scarcity of miracles is universal, and not just in the failed TWI. 

 

 

So, the question then becomes, why haven’t ANY groups of Christians in modern times gotten the same results that we see in Acts of the Apostles?

 

 

But then, looking closer at Acts, we can see the abundance of miracles there was in spurts (like Long Island?), and that most of the time, they too experienced the same scarcity of miracles.  We do see Paul sprung from jail once by a miraculous earthquake, and then some fast acting on revelation by Paul.  But then how many times later was Paul NOT sprung from jail?  And then, how many of the Apostles eventually died? All of them died. Miracles were rare for them too.

 

 

I am thinking out loud here.  Still working on all this.

 

 

At the very end of this thinking, I keep running into the very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders. 

 

 

I have also noticed that many here are very much against the idea of God having any limitations. This thread is an opportunity for possibly thinking that through in more detail.

 

 

*/*/*/*

 

 

God uses angels to do a lot of things. There is an interesting account in the OT about this in the Book of Daniel, where Daniel was praying for some help with something, and nothing happens for a long time, like weeks. Suddenly one day an angel shows up, and says something like “I’m here to help. Sorry I’m so late. I was detained for weeks struggling with some ‘big guy’ out there.”

 

 

 

That was my Super Abbreviated Version; below is the NIV:

 

 

 

 

 

*/*/*/*

Daniel Chapter 10

 

 

In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.

 

 

At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks.  I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over.

 

 

On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

 

 

I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.

 

 

A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.

 

 

Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”

 

 

While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak.  How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”

 

 

Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. “Do not be afraid, you who are highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! Be strong now; be strong.”

 

 

When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.”

 

 

So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.”

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

Now try not to be distracted by the great example of the Great Principle that is laid out in the open here in Daniel 10, and PLEASE focus on the red fonts that show how God was limited. God’s angels were obviously limited in that chapter, and they struggled to prevail. It looks like they were on a budget that just barely worked.

 

 

From this and many other scriptures (forthcoming), I get the impression that, though God has infinite power, He has limited His use of His power for various reasons, and must work within His own constructed framework. 

 

 

I get the impression He limits Himself to some kind of “Intervention Budget” SO THAT He can limit the devil to the same budget. 

 

 

WHY it works this way I do not know.

 

 

It just seems to be implied to be the case in the scriptures.  I think this maybe is what VPW was often referring to when he said the God did things “legally” and not just willy-nilly.  I will be soon bringing out more scriptures that gave me this hunch many years ago. 

 

 

Never once have I heard VPW or anyone else in the ministry, or out of the ministry, bring up an idea like this.  I have no idea where I got it from, but it just looks that way when I read the Bible. I think the Book of Job and it’s courtroom scenes may have first planted this idea. Also in that courtroom we see the devil being limited to not killing Job. Also, the many times God’s people in the Bible just barely got delivered at the last minute suggested a budget to me.

 

 

The spiritual battles in the OT are often ones of God just barely winning, but often with an abundance of cleverness and foresight.  God knew beforehand how big to set His budget so that He could rescue the broken world from the devil. God’s budget is tight; tight enough to make it impossible for the adversary to rule HIS OWN WORLD very efficiently.  Not knowing the future, the adversary wastes his budget on failed attempts to thwart God.

 

 

*/*/*/*

 

 

Now another feature of this theory or hunch of mine is that the budget not only applies to the “amount” of an intervention from the spiritual to the physical, it ALSO implies a TIME BUDGET as well. 

Again, from a bunch of scriptures (forthcoming) I have seen situations in the Scriptures that I describe as “Double Doors.”  That mean when God opens the door between the spiritual and physical for an intervention, He must open a corresponding door to the adversary as well.  Otherwise the doors are shut tight, like the way we see an angel in Genesis that blocks and guards Eden and the Tree of Live. The doors open at just the right time, and then soon shut.

 

 

I first noted this “Double Door” phenomenon in the Road to Damascus incident when Paul was converted. God opened the door for Paul to see Jesus, but the devil pounces in through that same set of doors to try and kill Paul.  Like the limitations put on him in the Book of Job, the devil is only successful in blinding Paul. This blinding is against God’s will, but the door was then shut, so God directed Paul and Ananias to get together for healing later.

 

 

I thought I’d submit this hunch of mine for review here, and brainstorming a little outside the usual confines of issues in About the Way.  I am sure many tangential topics will be included.

 

Mike, so far I think what you said is possible but awaiting those additional scriptures you spoke about.   Interesting.

[Mike]

34 minutes ago, oldiesman said:

Mike, so far I think what you said is possible but awaiting those additional scriptures you spoke about.   Interesting.

I will be working on that this week.  It took me a whole week to bang out that first post, because I am trying to be less rushed as I write.  The posting frenzies that can happen here were times when I would use awkward grammar or forget crucial mitigation.

I'll just to throw out the one easiest to document scriptures that SOMEWHAT supports this double door part of my theory. It is:

Genesis 3:1 
Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field
which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman,
“Yea, hath God said, ‘Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

This verse often gets us wondering WHY was the serpent there in the Garden of Eden at all? !!!

Everything in the Second Earth was "very good" at that time, so how was this subtle, crafty, lying enchanter able to get in?  Answer:  Double Doors

In order for God to operate freely in the Garden with Adam, He had to allow that open door for the adversary to operate freely as well.

At the end of Eden this set of double doors was closed.

Genesis 3:22-24
And the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever” — therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken.  So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

*/*/*

This is not any kind of proof, but it does answer a long standing question of many, and it is part of a pattern that I will be documenting.  Please try to think of some "double door" or "bugetary" leaning scriptures yourself.

 

I don't mean to ignore any of the other posts.  This one was a fast easy scripture to put on the table.  The other comments here will take me more time to read better and compose my thoughts.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Mike

[skyrider]

13 hours ago, Mike said:

Again, from a bunch of scriptures (forthcoming) I have seen situations in the Scriptures that I describe as “Double Doors.”  That mean when God opens the door between the spiritual and physical for an intervention, He must open a corresponding door to the adversary as well.  Otherwise the doors are shut tight, like the way we see an angel in Genesis that blocks and guards Eden and the Tree of Live. The doors open at just the right time, and then soon shut.

I first noted this “Double Door” phenomenon in the Road to Damascus incident when Paul was converted. God opened the door for Paul to see Jesus, but the devil pounces in through that same set of doors to try and kill Paul.  Like the limitations put on him in the Book of Job, the devil is only successful in blinding Paul. This blinding is against God’s will, but the door was then shut, so God directed Paul and Ananias to get together for healing later.

I thought I’d submit this hunch of mine for review here, and brainstorming a little outside the usual confines of issues in About the Way.  I am sure many tangential topics will be included.

 

~~~~~

34 minutes ago, Mike said:

I'll just to throw out the one easiest to document scriptures that SOMEWHAT supports this double door part of my theory. It is:

Genesis 3:1 
Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field
which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman,
“Yea, hath God said, ‘Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

This verse often gets us wondering WHY was the serpent there in the Garden of Eden at all? !!!

Everything in the Second Earth was "very good" at that time, so how was this subtle, crafty, lying enchanter able to get in?  Answer:  Double Doors

In order for God to operate freely in the Garden with Adam, He had to allow that open door for the adversary to operate freely as well.

At the end of Eden this set of double doors was closed.

Genesis 3:22-24
And the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever” — therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken.  So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

 

 

I'm trying to understand your '"Double Doors" theory.  You stated that "God opened the door for Paul to see Jesus, but the devil pounces in through that same set of doors to try and kill Paul."  So, which is it?  .... 1) the door or 2) that same set of doors?  Aren't you adding private interpretation by injecting in a theory that the Scriptures don't specify?  

In Genesis 3:22-24.... it DOES NOT SAY that God closed the west door and then, the east door so that neither Adam nor the devil could enter.  It says He (God) drove out the man and He placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way to keep Adam, or the devil, from entering.  Where are the double doors?  One entrance/exit was guarded.... NOT two.

Maybe, you are simply referring to a wide entrance/exit when you hypothesize "double doors".... but the Scriptures give us clarity, NOT injected generics.  I fail to see your analysis as anything other than private interpretation. You are inserting a theory that can be easily disputed by just reading the Scriptures.  Now, I would agree that God gave the devil access to Paul and Adam, because he is a just and righteous God.  One access, one entrance.... not "double doors."  For Jesus Christ to completely redeem mankind to usher in the gift of eternal life, Jesus had to endure this pain, suffering and death at the cross to righteously restore man (and woman) back to their original state of fellowship with God.  For God is love and light and in Him is no darkness at all.

 

 

[Nathan_Jr]

I should budget my time and money because both are limited.

God must budget His Resources, not because they’re limited, but to make it fair for the devil?

Sounds like Ancient Greek theater.

The love of this conceptual, clown shoe wearing god is why  signs, wonders and miracles didn’t follow victor.

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[Mike]

10 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

God must budget His Resources, not because they’re limited, but to make it fair for the devil?

The love of this conceptual, clown shoe wearing god is why  signs, wonders and miracles didn’t follow victor.

No! 
It is the double doors that kinda make it fair for the devil.
Or maybe also to make life a real choice for Adam.

The tight budget that God limits Himself to is to limit the devil to the same tight budget.

Maybe you missed the part where I said that IN ADDITION to "signs, wonders and miracles didn’t follow victor"  they don't follow anybody exceptin' Jesus.  All the apostles were lacking a miracle at their time of death, and many lackings before that.

I think the scarcity of heavy duty miracles is universal, not just with you and me.  Every ministry outside of Jesus' goes for long periods of time without ever seeing a spectacular miracle.  I believe they happen; just rarely. Every now and then, when the doors are open, they happen and even in spurts.

[Mike]

14 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

As evidenced by this 7000 word post, time is no longer an issue. 

Time is always an issue.  It took me a long time to write that all out.

And no, I did not finish Penworks book yet.

[Mike]

3 hours ago, So_crates said:

Since, in biblical times, you weren't considered an adult until you were 30, I would have guessed all the apostles were 30 or older.

I was thinking the responsibilities at 30 may be too much for many to have dropped everything to follow Jesus. Younger people could withstand the hardships of touring like young Grateful Dead fans would tour with that band from city to city.

[Mike]

3 hours ago, So_crates said:

...wouldn't an all knowing being know how to get his point across quickly and efficiently and not have to monkey around for 21 days.

All we have are scriptures to guide us in these matters, and they plainly say that God's angels were hindered, and it was a tight struggle.  I believe God's handling of this matter was the best way, and He tells us, with scriptures, what His angels had to go through.   We should not second guess this situation; just learn from it.  It was a close, difficult struggle.

[T-Bone]

21 minutes ago, Mike said:

No! 
It is the double doors that kinda make it fair for the devil.
Or maybe also to make life a real choice for Adam.

This sounds like wierwille’s fixation of demonology - all speculation by him and YOU

 

21 minutes ago, Mike said:

The tight budget that God limits Himself to is to limit the devil to the same tight budget.

 

odd…you’ve conjured up a cosmic economy…God and the devil are inextricably linked together…weird and unbiblical to say the least

and 

It still sounds to me like you’re placing limits on God…Jim Croce plagiarized “if I could put god in a bottle…”
 

21 minutes ago, Mike said:

Maybe you missed the part where I said that IN ADDITION to "signs, wonders and miracles didn’t follow victor"  they don't follow anybody exceptin' Jesus.  All the apostles were lacking a miracle at their time of death, and many lackings before that.  

I think the scarcity of heavy duty miracles is universal, not just with you and me.  Every ministry outside of Jesus' goes for long periods of time without ever seeing a spectacular miracle.  I believe they happen; just rarely. Every now and then, when the doors are open, they happen and even in spurts.

ah yes the spurt-ual realm!  
 

 

16 minutes ago, Mike said:

Time is always an issue.  It took me a long time to write that all out.

And no, I did not finish Penworks book yet.

Maybe re-prioritize your time. Finish Penworks’ book first, then take that much deserved vacation from Grease Spot to mull over the implications of what is revealed in Undertow to reevaluate your thesis.

Edited February 28, 2023 by T-Bone
Typos

[Mike]

3 hours ago, So_crates said:

And your point is?

Do you think we don't know people that can't use miracles?

My point with the story about George was that HUGE undeniable miracles (like a new arm where there was never one before) were so rare that CERTAINLY if even ONE had occurred in TWI we'd all have heard about it. 

My point was that big miracles were very rare for us, and then I extended it to all ministries, and even to the ministries of the apostles.  The scarcity is universal.  Why?  I think the closed doors are to keep the devils lying signs, miracles, and wonders very scarce also. 

There will come a time, after we are gone, when the door will be wide open for the devil's power, and that way he will seduce the whole world.

 

 

[Nathan_Jr]

Who contrives limits? Who constructs limits? Who conceives of limits? Who perceives limits? Who beleeeves limits?

Man or God?

 

These are rhetorical questions for contemplation. 

[So_crates]

39 minutes ago, Mike said:

I was thinking the responsibilities at 30 may be too much for many to have dropped everything to follow Jesus. Younger people could withstand the hardships of touring like young Grateful Dead fans would tour with that band from city to city.

Yah. I'm sure those bibical parent would have let their kids go off with any stranger that came along.

By the way, what responsibilities did a 30 year old have then that a 20 year old didn't have? Some of the apostles were fishermen, one was a physician. Both positions suggest age, not youth.

Christ didn't start his ministry until after he was 30. Don't you think he would have started it earlier if he could have? Now, why would the apostles be able to galavant all over the countryside if Christ couldn't?

[So_crates]

41 minutes ago, Mike said:

All we have are scriptures to guide us in these matters, and they plainly say that God's angels were hindered, and it was a tight struggle.  I believe God's handling of this matter was the best way, and He tells us, with scriptures, what His angels had to go through.   We should not second guess this situation; just learn from it.  It was a close, difficult struggle.

I could make the same claims about your theories. All we have are scriptures to guide us in these matters. They say nothing about "two doors" or God limiting himself to limit the devil. We should not second guess the situation; just learn from it.

Isn't it amazing how when you want to shoehorn your theories it's okay, but everybody else has t riggedly go by what the text says?

[So_crates]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

The tight budget that God limits Himself to is to limit the devil to the same tight budget.

You obviously haven't consulted the bible on this.

First off, the devil is on a tight budget. God is all powerful; the devil is limited in his power. This is best witnesses in Job where it says the devil was going to and fro about the earth. God is everywhere; the devil can only be one place at a time.

Second, God created the devil, making the devil a lesser being.

Third, why was the snake in Eden? Because after the war in heaven God cast him down to earth and he became the God of this world?

Edited February 28, 2023 by So_crates

[Nathan_Jr]

If you’ve got to make the shoes fit like the gloves, they might as well be clown shoes. 

[So_crates]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

 I believe God's handling of this matter was the best way

This is a cop out.

It's right up there with "It wasn't God's will" or "God works in mysterious ways."

It be more honest if you said you didn't know.

[Nathan_Jr]

During the filming of PFAL, when God sent an angel in the form of a professional lighting technician to advise victor how NOT to proceed, and victor rejected the sound pleadings from this angel by spitting in his face, who was limited? Who lacked an in depth spiritual awareness and perception?

A message was sent. It was sound. God didn’t reject his own message. Victor did. And look what happened.

Who is limited? God or man?

 

[Mike]

5 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I think I understand one of your points – to a degree anyway...

 

I think I understand one of your points – to a degree anyway – what I acknowledge is that God is all-powerful, and that He is limited only by His own designs and purposes – and we should not assume we know all about His designs and purposes.

I totally agree. The only way we can have any surety here is to the extent that we see it in the scriptures. 

Over the years I kept on THINKING that I was seeing this in the scriptures. I will soon be processing my collection for posting. I have them all in one folder already, so it won’t take too long.

*/*/*

But to say that He “MUST work within His own constructed framework” is to dictate what an all-powerful being can and cannot do.

Here, I think we already have pretty clear scriptures that confirm this part, like God cannot lie, and the scripture cannot be broken.

*/*/*

Imagine a 6-year-old throwing a tantrum at Walmart because Mom won’t let him grab stuff off the shelves and mess with everything – like he does at home. Maybe the kid doesn’t understand something about the ‘all-powerful’ Mom. She’s a single Mom and works online from home. When at home she devotes a lot of her time and energy to online work. Most folks at Walmart will probably think she doesn’t discipline the kid at home…But maybe she’s a great single mom doing the best she can to provide for 2, loves the kid and just makes sure the kid doesn’t burn down the house.

At Walmart – maybe the kid is trying to figure out what the ‘all-powerful’ Mom can and cannot do. In this silly parenting metaphor, to the kid the mom is like a god. At 6-years-old maybe he doesn’t get that an all-powerful Mom can have different strategies and purposes in different situations – but her love and concern for the kid’s well-being and development doesn’t change – no external force…not even a tantrum throwing 6-year-old can alter mom’s love.

Why did God create angels with free will? Why did God create humankind with free will? Why didn’t God immediately fix the rebellion in heaven or the screw up in the Garden of Eden? There’s lots of questions this little kid has. file:///C:/Users/mike7/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif 

*We know very little about angels.  Again we are totally limited to what the scriptures tell us about them, and it seems they tell us far less about angels than what they tell us about God, and Jesus, and us. We can barely understand free will of our own; far less angels’ free will.

As far as our free will goes, we have precious little said in the scripture about that. I hear rumors Calvin launched a whole religion that has no free will in their doctrine.  The Bible does seem to favor determinism at times, a little. 

But most of all I think the Bible assumes or implies SOME kind of choice is available to us, without going into the Biology at all.   We need to have choice to be individuals.

As for your last question of God fixing problems quickly, versus dragging it all out this way, possibly with a budget and double doors, there is an answer to that.  It is in Romans, but the best translation I’ve seen that makes this clear is the New English Translation.

Romans 5  N.E.T.

 

But death held sway from Adam to Moses,

even over those who had not sinned as Adam did,

by disobeying a direct command,

and Adam foreshadows The Man who was to come.

 

But God’s act of grace

is out of all proportion

to Adam’s wrongdoing.

 

For if the wrongdoing of that one man

brought death upon so many,

its effect is vastly exceeded

by the grace of God

and the gift that came to so many

by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ.

 

And again:

the gift of God

is not to be compared in its effect

with that one man’s sin;

 

for the judicial action,

following upon the one offence,

issued in a verdict of condemnation,

 

but the act of grace,

following upon so many misdeeds,

issued in a verdict of acquittal.

 

For, if by the wrongdoing of that one man,

death established its reign

through a single sinner,

much more shall those who receive

God’s grace in far greater measure,

and His gift of righteousness,

live and reign through the one man, Jesus Christ.

What I take away from that is that I trust God that IN THE END it will have been worth all the crap and delays.  That passage in Romans 5 is a PROMISE that we will not be disappointed when we get there. It will be the big Ah Ha! moment.  The delays will look puny, and all the tears will be wiped away.  I think it is connected with Jesus leaving to prepare a place for us, and it takes time.  Likewise, in the OT, it took time for angels to get jobs done.  Why? We can ask that then, but now we clearly see this happens.

 

[Charity]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

No! 
It is the double doors that kinda make it fair for the devil.
Or maybe also to make life a real choice for Adam.

The tight budget that God limits Himself to is to limit the devil to the same tight budget.

Maybe you missed the part where I said that IN ADDITION to "signs, wonders and miracles didn’t follow victor"  they don't follow anybody exceptin' Jesus.  All the apostles were lacking a miracle at their time of death, and many lackings before that.

I think the scarcity of heavy duty miracles is universal, not just with you and me.  Every ministry outside of Jesus' goes for long periods of time without ever seeing a spectacular miracle.  I believe they happen; just rarely. Every now and then, when the doors are open, they happen and even in spurts.

I'm just going to focus on this part of your sentence that "signs, wonders and miracles didn’t follow victor."  Wasn't it vp who taught that believers can operate all 9 all the time?  If this was true then doesn't it contradict what you are sharing now about "the tight budget that God limits Himself to?"  How do you reconcile the two?

[Nathan_Jr]

There are more than 9 manifestations, but God's budget limits them to just 9.
 

God had to limit them in order to limit the devil. He just had to.

[So_crates]

42 minutes ago, Charity said:

I'm just going to focus on this part of your sentence that "signs, wonders and miracles didn’t follow victor."  Wasn't it vp who taught that believers can operate all 9 all the time?  If this was true then doesn't it contradict what you are sharing now about "the tight budget that God limits Himself to?"  How do you reconcile the two?

Further, it was Saint Vic that stated, "Signs, miracles, and wonders follow the Man of God the way a tail foliws a dog."

But because The Way--and by extension Saint Vic and PLAF--fail this text, it doesn't mean The Way is a counterfeit ministry. It's because God overspent his budget with Jesus Christ and Paul and he has nothing left in the coffers for contemporary believers.

[Mike]

6 minutes ago, Charity said:

I'm just going to focus on this part of your sentence that "signs, wonders and miracles didn’t follow victor."  Wasn't it vp who taught that believers can operate all 9 all the time?  If this was true then doesn't it contradict what you are sharing now about "the tight budget that God limits Himself to?"  How do you reconcile the two?

We heard of some miracles in VPW's ministry in the years prior to the filming of PFAL in 1968. I have reason to believe they were genuine. HOWEVER, I have never heard of any big, huge, undeniable miracles coming from VPW, nor from anyone in top leadership. 

I am not sure about a lot of things, but we all have to make temporary models to understand how things went down.  I juggle these models from time to time. 

In the 70s, part of the early TVT  (it wasn’t all bad) was that Oral Roberts did have a genuine ministry of healing miracles. However, as the TVT went, the adversary sort of “bought him out” by clearing the path for Oral to set up a College or a University. Then his healings went down.  The adversary had identified a soft spot in his stand, and tempted him with good (Bible School) to get him to relinquish the best (healings).

This could even be looked at as an example of the Peter Principle, from that book from the 80s. Now, I imagine this was not a black-and-white sudden change in Oral’s life.  It may have taken years, with lotsd of back and forth.

It looks like something similar may have happened to VPW with his “School of the Prophets” that the Corps was supposed to become.  It looks to me that VPW’s ministry worked great, until around 1972 and it started rapidly changing from being "PFAL for new people" oriented, to being totally Corps oriented. 

I was outraged at how the top leadership TOTALLY ignored all the need-to-know issues we non-Corps people had while the ministry was melting down in the years after 1986.  Top leadership acted as if we did not exist.

I can imagine VPW doing a back and forth in those last years of his life, but the pattern was set in stone for his top leaders.

*/*/*/*

Now let’s look at your question. 

All nine all the time NEVER meant miracles all the time. 

It pretty much mean SIT most of the time, and look for ways to do T.I.P. as often as once a day.   The rest of the time could be in helping others and asking God what to do.

All nine all the time was just a meme, a slogan for us to remember easily, that we always have these great manifestations to learn. 

*/*/*

It has occurred to me that ONE reason the doors may be closed when a miracle is needed is because the believer, the potential miracle worker, needs to be spiritually strong enough to withstand the adversary rushing in to mess up the miracle. 

If that believer is taught things like PFAL and memes like “all 9 all the time,” then that believer can SIT a lot and work the Word and his walk to BECOME strong enough to withstand the devil rushing in, and get that miracle done. 

I see no contradiction in VPW teaching “all nine all the time” and YET he himself  (or the structure of top Corps leaders he built)  being out of fellowship, or just not disciplined enough to handle God open that door. 

There have been PLENTY of times I was not up to my best, yet I would still teach what I knew to be the best, even if I often fell short of it.

HQ is a terrible place to get the fire to move the Word face-to-face with a new person. 

It was very challenging to me to get those two locals signed up for the class. In a little over 2 years, that was all I got.  I can understand HQ people sliding into complacent easy-believing there, and not rising to the challenge of witnessing to the end of changing someone’s life for the better. I imagine that top leadership circles at lots of the States was equally boring, and lots of paperwork and putting out ego fires.

But on Long Island in the 70s, it was exciting and loaded with signs, miracles, and wonders when a large team of “know nothings” with holy spirit started speaking the Word boldly in public.

*/*/*

I believe, and am thankful for minor miracles, like ones that are so private that no one can know about them save the ones who benefited. That can be happening a lot.  But it seems some miracles, like my friend George getting a miraculously built arm, are rare and require a big hit on the “budget.”  

Remember that “budget” is just a word I came up with to describe God limiting Himself and the devil simultaneously. At the Christ’s return we can probably expect to see that budget busted after the adversary is gone.

[waysider]

Summary:

VP good.

Way Corps bad.

[Mike]

5 hours ago, skyrider said:

~~~~~

 

I'm trying to understand your '"Double Doors" theory.  You stated that "God opened the door for Paul to see Jesus, but the devil pounces in through that same set of doors to try and kill Paul."  So, which is it?  .... 1) the door or 2) that same set of doors?  Aren't you adding private interpretation by injecting in a theory that the Scriptures don't specify?  

In Genesis 3:22-24.... it DOES NOT SAY that God closed the west door and then, the east door so that neither Adam nor the devil could enter.  It says He (God) drove out the man and He placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way to keep Adam, or the devil, from entering.  Where are the double doors?  One entrance/exit was guarded.... NOT two.

Maybe, you are simply referring to a wide entrance/exit when you hypothesize "double doors".... but the Scriptures give us clarity, NOT injected generics.  I fail to see your analysis as anything other than private interpretation. You are inserting a theory that can be easily disputed by just reading the Scriptures.  Now, I would agree that God gave the devil access to Paul and Adam, because he is a just and righteous God.  One access, one entrance.... not "double doors."  For Jesus Christ to completely redeem mankind to usher in the gift of eternal life, Jesus had to endure this pain, suffering and death at the cross to righteously restore man (and woman) back to their original state of fellowship with God.  For God is love and light and in Him is no darkness at all

I am recalling way back to the 1970s to when I first started a paper folder for this topic.

The term "double doors" is merely an alliteration for an idea, making it easy go remember, and there are the iconic bar room double doors in our vocabulary.   The idea may be in scriptures, but not with my nomenclature.

I was thinking of interventions between the spiritual realm into the physical realm as being possible for BOTH God and the devil. That is what the "double" refers to:  both God and the devil are limited by them being shut.  But when God opens them, both of them suddenly have access.

*/*/*/*/*

If what I am talking is an abundantly clear pattern in the scriptures, then it can rise above the charge of private interpretation. If not then I have to drop it and not teach it.   I will be producing the scriptures that convinced me enough to at least bring it up here in the "Doctrinal Dungeon" as opposed to teaching it in a twig.  I have never taught this all these years.  I have brought it up to about 3 or 4 people I thought could handle it, and they encouraged me to look into it deeper.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Mike

[Charity]

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

We heard of some miracles in VPW's ministry in the years prior to the filming of PFAL in 1968. I have reason to believe they were genuine. HOWEVER, I have never heard of any big, huge, undeniable miracles coming from VPW, nor from anyone in top leadership. 

 

 

I am not sure about a lot of things, but we all have to make temporary models to understand how things went down.  I juggle these models from time to time. 

 

 

In the 70s, part of the early TVT  (it wasn’t all bad) was that Oral Roberts did have a genuine ministry of healing miracles. However, as the TVT went, the adversary sort of “bought him out” by clearing the path for Oral to set up a College or a University. Then his healings went down.  The adversary had identified a soft spot in his stand, and tempted him with good (Bible School) to get him to relinquish the best (healings).

 

 

This could even be looked at as an example of the Peter Principle, from that book from the 80s. Now, I imagine this was not a black-and-white sudden change in Oral’s life.  It may have taken years, with lotsd of back and forth.

 

 

It looks like something similar may have happened to VPW with his “School of the Prophets” that the Corps was supposed to become.  It looks to me that VPW’s ministry worked great, until around 1972 and it started rapidly changing from being "PFAL for new people" oriented, to being totally Corps oriented. 

I was outraged at how the top leadership TOTALLY ignored all the need-to-know issues we non-Corps people had while the ministry was melting down in the years after 1986.  Top leadership acted as if we did not exist.

 

 

I can imagine VPW doing a back and forth in those last years of his life, but the pattern was set in stone for his top leaders.

 

 

*/*/*/*

 

 

Now let’s look at your question. 

 

 

All nine all the time NEVER meant miracles all the time. 

It pretty much mean SIT most of the time, and look for ways to do T.I.P. as often as once a day.   The rest of the time could be in helping others and asking God what to do.

 

 

All nine all the time was just a meme, a slogan for us to remember easily, that we always have these great manifestations to learn. 

 

 

*/*/*

It has occurred to me that ONE reason the doors may be closed when a miracle is needed is because the believer, the potential miracle worker, needs to be spiritually strong enough to withstand the adversary rushing in to mess up the miracle. 

If that believer is taught things like PFAL and memes like “all 9 all the time,” then that believer can SIT a lot and work the Word and his walk to BECOME strong enough to withstand the devil rushing in, and get that miracle done. 

 

 

I see no contradiction in VPW teaching “all nine all the time” and YET he himself  (or the structure of top Corps leaders he built)  being out of fellowship, or just not disciplined enough to handle God open that door. 

There have been PLENTY of times I was not up to my best, yet I would still teach what I knew to be the best, even if I often fell short of it.

 

 

HQ is a terrible place to get the fire to move the Word face-to-face with a new person. 

It was very challenging to me to get those two locals signed up for the class. In a little over 2 years, that was all I got.  I can understand HQ people sliding into complacent easy-believing there, and not rising to the challenge of witnessing to the end of changing someone’s life for the better. I imagine that top leadership circles at lots of the States was equally boring, and lots of paperwork and putting out ego fires.

 

 

But on Long Island in the 70s, it was exciting and loaded with signs, miracles, and wonders when a large team of “know nothings” with holy spirit started speaking the Word boldly in public.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

I believe, and am thankful for minor miracles, like ones that are so private that no one can know about them save the ones who benefited. That can be happening a lot.  But it seems some miracles, like my friend George getting a miraculously built arm, are rare and require a big hit on the “budget.”  

Remember that “budget” is just a word I came up with to describe God limiting Himself and the devil simultaneously. At the Christ’s return we can probably expect to see that budget busted after the adversary is gone.

 

 

I think of Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1 often and wonder how it can become a reality in our lives. 

16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.