Now what has that to do with the price of auto mechanics in Detroit. My point was I did your program and it failed miserably.
Criminy! It sounds like you didn't absorb it completely the first time. Let me explain...
The contents of the paper folder are NOT the contents of the cookie jar. Some people call them double doors, I call them French doors. Did you see the movie Sling Blade? It's like The Omen, but not.
Now what has that to do with the price of auto mechanics in Detroit. My point was I did your program and it failed miserably.
30 minutes ago, Mike said:
My diagnosis was right; cracked head. I had a sick feeling when I saw the aluminum poles and how strong they looked at the big tent.
It didn't work for Mike either, but the difference you can humbly admit wierwilles doctrines failed where Mike is still trying to figure out what we t wrong. Wierwilles version of Christianity is so very formulaic...so trying to figure out what went wrong one has to carefully check each component of the formula. Of course the main component that gets blamed is us...those who made the mistake of following a false prophet.
The correct way to rebound from failure in such matters is turn to God with a humble heart, ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened.
Note to self: Okay, I got on it again but at least this time my head didn't feel like it was going to explode. All right, I won't get on the hamster wheel again.
Note to self: Okay, okay, I got on it again but only because he must stop working so hard on his believing to get it to become real believing. Man, it's like he's carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders . I was just trying to help. All right, I won't get on the hamster wheel again.
Note to self: Destroy the da@mn hamster wheel! So the next time I'm tempted to spend an hour of my time typing out a reply, I'll climb through some twisty tunnels, eat some hamster pellets and sleep in my nice red hide away instead.
Moral of story: When Mike starts out by saying he wants feedback about some wacko theory of his which you know he's not going to accept but instead push vp and pfal - put on the headphones and blast away with Don't be Fooled Again !
Note to self: Okay, I got on it again but at least this time my head didn't feel like it was going to explode. All right, I won't get on the hamster wheel again.
Note to self: Okay, okay, I got on it again but only because he must stop working so hard on his believing to get it become real believing. Man, it's like he's carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders . I was just trying to help. All right, I won't get on the hamster wheel again.
Note to self: Destroy the da@mn hamster wheel! So the next time I'm tempted to spend an hour of my time typing out a reply, I'll climb through some twisty tunnels, eat some hamster pellets and sleep in my nice red hide away instead.
Moral of story: When Mike starts out by saying he wants feedback about some wacko theory of his which you know he's not going to accept but instead push vp and pfal - put on the headphones and blast away with Don't be Fooled Again !
Mike has been our resident TROLL for a full two-decades. He's addicted to GSC, perhaps because people actually still do get on the hamster wheel with him over and over.
Charity, I wish you the best. And I appreciate your music selection.
We DO have relevant scriptures which run counter to Mike's half-baked notions.
i.e. the two greatest commandments. Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Why would anyone be tempted to jump on the hamster wheel with Mike? Does his vain babblings empower or enhance any reader's ability or desire to love God or one's neighbor?
When comparing what OldSkool, Skyrider and Chockfull shared to how Mike is endeavoring to understand the scarcity of miracles, the difference between the two is striking.
How does his one hunch “that we grads have not yet really graduated to that level yet” fit in with what they experienced?
Yeah....where have we heard THAT before?
"We (YOU) have not yet really graduated to that level yet".... same ole song that wierwille played regarding "not spiritual enough to handle it." Lock box, remember? Or a number of other examples where you've got to reach spiritual maturity to see it... garbage.
Or geer, with his passing the poop manuscript.... "the way corps just haven't risen up to the level that dr. wierwille set for them." Same garbage, different trash can. We see this worn-out canard played over and over again to illicit guilt and deception. The false teachers run on the same rails because they are lazy, brain-dead hucksters. Their trappings vary little. And, Mike is one of their sycophants.
From Emotional Inheritance by Galit Atlas PhD, first two paragraphs of the last chapter (page 263):
Quote
The ability to love, to invest in life, to created and to fulfill our dreams, is in ongoing dialogue with our capacity to search for EMOTIONAL truths (emphasis mine), to tolerate pain, and to mourn.
While our journeys to healing vary, each starts with the decision to search, to open the door, and, rather than turn away from the hurt of the past, to walk toward it. We choose to unpack our emotional inheritance, to be active agents in transforming our fate into destiny.
GSC can be, and is for some, a part of journeys to process some of our emotional inheritance. Then there's Mike, stuck in a purgatory of his own making.
Here’s my reasons for thinking Mike’s‘thesis’ God’s Budget and Double Doors - On the Scarcity of Miracles is a bunch of bull$hit:
1.Tendency to obfuscate
That mental assent versus real believing dichotomy is a smokescreen to tantalize the audience to look for more power and control – prosperity gospel preachers use this to sell followers on the illusion of the law of believing aka magical thinking…From the very beginning of humankind very little would have been accomplished if people didn’t believe in their ability to do something. That’s how stuff gets invented, built, troubleshoot & repaired, or create art and music…now maybe procrastination might be the closest thing to mental assent. Procrastination is waiting for the right time, inspiration or motivation “Yeah, I was going to look for a job today – but it looks like it might rain – downtown will be a mess. I’ll go next week.”
** ** ** **
2.Tendency to overcomplicate
Followers of TWI like other prosperity gospel adherents are inclined to make something more difficult than necessary. Per the trend toward point 1 obfuscation, these ‘believers’ may have the toughest time troubleshooting the problem. What is needed is to demystify the concepts. There’s been a lot of discussion on Grease Spot about the fictious law of believing– some of the most notable work is on OldSkool’s thread on Law of Believing…which inspired me to draft a few posts on commonplace believing versus religious faith – this one is probably my most concise > T-Bone's post on changed positions on doctrine Sept. 25th 2022 8:58 PM. You can check out those hyperlinks for an expansion of this – but to summarize my thoughts here: to simplify the convoluted, a clear straightforward definition is needed to distinguish between a mental function that anyone can do and the attitude of someone who trusts in God. In both instances simple believing (which anyone can do) is involved – the difference is the object or target of believing – which leads us to point 3 promotes a misplaced faith.
** ** ** **
3. Promotes a misplaced faith
When we don’t get what we want, or things don’t turn out the way we were expecting it does not automatically mean we lack faith. Disillusionment and disappointment might be a sign of misplaced faith. Faith is interwoven with our relationship with God. This point is limited to defining what Christiansdowith their faith. This is nota thesis on Bible kinds of faith, like in the faith of 1 Corinthians 12:9 .
As I hinted in point 2, the object or target of our faith is the key. In TWI, I remember one-liners in teachings that said, “you’ve got to believe in your believing”. In the blue book, the chapter on Release From Your Prisons, wierwille uses a camera analogy to instruct us to get clear and focused on what we want. Thatbecomes the object or target of your believing. In the real world of $hit that happens because of something you did– that principle works just fine.
Say I want to be a guitarist…a good guitarist…a great guitarist. What do Ido? Sit around all day looking at posters of Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, David Gilmour? Listen to their records and play air-guitar in front of the mirror to them? Well…you might begin that way…being inspired by others but it’s not magical thinking – you have to put in the effort…maybe take lessons…practice…practice…practice…you have to do stuff!
(true confessions – I was about 10-years-old – I would go in my older brother’s bedroom when he was gone – he had a killer Pioneer stereo system – he didn’t mind if I played his records…I would put on a 45 likeWalk like a Man by The Four Seasons- stand on his bed so I could see myself in the mirror over his deskand ‘play’ the badminton racket in front of the mirror – and I did the double-challenge of lip-syncing to the words and strumming the badminton racket at the same time – all you folks gloating over your chewing-gum-and-walking exploits can eat the badminton birdie – cuz I don’t need it – I’m too busy jamming in another universe…damn I was good! )
** ** ** **
4. Relies on a biased interpretation of the Bible
Proponents of the law of believing are inclined to slant definitions of faith and what it’s used for according to some blank check or wish list.
Mike said “it all narrows down to how Jesus taught on believing and the lack of believing”. Where does it say that in the Bible?
Let’s look at one account:
16“What are you arguing with them about?” he asked.
17A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.”
19“You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.”
20So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.
21Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?” “From childhood,” he answered. 22“It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”
23“ ‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”
24Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”
25When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”
26The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, “He’s dead.” 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up…Mark 9 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
Jesus mentioned an unbelieving generation – which includes his ineffective disciples - the father’s request is a good example of a doubtful generation – and in the bigger picture, lack of faith is a recurring problem see Deuteronomy 32:20andNumbers 14:11 . What is so cool about the father was that he admitted his inadequacy…Thinking a little more deeply about Mark 9, we should remember that in Mark 6 the disciples were previously successful in casting out demons; since their authority was established by Jesus Christ – it may be their faith in him was seriously shaken when Jesus revealed to them the way of the cross for him and his disciples in Mark 8 .
Mike said “in believing for miracles make sure you have a written or direct promise from God to link your believing to and then ACT on it.” Where does it say that in the Bible?
There’s probably no simpler or more clear description of faith than in Hebrews 11. The chapter focuses on attitude – “faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see” – so how can that be referring to a written promise? Faith is a spiritual perception – it’s a sense of something intangible – like verse 3 “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible”. Like in verse 27 with reference to Moses, “By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible”. Despite all obstacles, all the believers mentioned in God’s Hall of Fame (Hebrews 11) courageously obeyed God. Read the whole chapter – not all of themcame out on top in every situation:
There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning; e they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
To summarize Hebrews 11: God was pleased with their faith – though NONE of them received what was promised! What some of them got was merely a foretaste of the greater promise now accomplished in Christ.
** ** ** **
5.Has an inappropriate fixation with demonology
And the demonology is skewed to boot! In my opinion, the prolific presence and busy activity of Satan and his army in Mike’s theology has no solid biblical basis – but rather it seems to be fueled by paranoia- which I believe was heavily influenced by the delusional and irrational teachings of wierwille – especially in the Advanced Class.
In my opinion wierwille’s demonology is lopsided spiritualism with awful lot of speculation – a lot of unproven theories. Contrary to wierwille’s teachings I drafted a couple of posts on the idiom of permission thread, with information I garnered from legitimate scholars in the biblical languages and ancient cultures. You can check out these posts at your convenience here > my idiom of permission post Oct 2nd 2022 7:04 PM andhere > my idiom of permission post Oct 4th 2022 12:30 PM- for now I’ll just summarize them: Many of the ancient cultures of the Bible had a concept of a divine councilwhich basically was an assembly of deities over which a higher-level god presides. Thus, you’ll find in passages likeII Samuel 24 a narrative of God in dialog with an angel to withdraw the angel’s hand of destructionand in Job 1 and Job 2God as a manager over lesser deities.
~ ~ ~ ~
What’s the point of all this? God is sovereign! Ephesians 1:11 says God works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will…I fail to see the necessity of Mike’s ever-developing secrets of the dark side – because he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, it lacks biblical support, it gives more attention to Satan than to God, besides the fact that it promotes a feeble and pitiful view of God Almighty.
The lack of results from believing should never be put on God, or paid much attention.
But you ARE putting it on God. Isn't that basically what you suggested when starting this thread?!
You spoke about the possibility of God's budget of miracles being scarce, then wrote:
"Now another feature of this theory or hunch of mine is that the budget not only applies to the “amount” of an intervention from the spiritual to the physical, it ALSO implies a TIME BUDGET as well."
Are you now walking it back and saying lack of results when we believe is our doing?
Here’s my reasons for thinking Mike’s‘thesis’ God’s Budget and Double Doors - On the Scarcity of Miracles is a bunch of bull$hit:
I appreciate your bullet points and agree that each is a part of Mike's emotional inheritance from his "father in da vurd."... that is, I don't necessarily need to read your explanations of the bullet points to understand.
But you ARE putting it on God. Isn't that basically what you suggested when starting this thread?!
You spoke about the possibility of God's budget of miracles being scarce, then wrote:
"Now another feature of this theory or hunch of mine is that the budget not only applies to the “amount” of an intervention from the spiritual to the physical, it ALSO implies a TIME BUDGET as well."
Are you now walking it back and saying lack of results when we believe is our doing?
IOW, Mike's convoluting (and rationalizing) plenty of stuff because he isn't prepared to cope with realization he's full of $ hit. I have to wonder if he might benefit greatly from therapy like that described in Galit Atlas' book. Nevertheless, Oldiesman, I agree with your analysis of how Mike has put it back on God.
Here’s my reasons for thinking Mike’s‘thesis’ God’s Budget and Double Doors - On the Scarcity of Miracles is a bunch of bull$hit:
1.Tendency to obfuscate
That mental assent versus real believing dichotomy is a smokescreen to tantalize the audience to look for more power and control – prosperity gospel preachers use this to sell followers on the illusion of the law of believing aka magical thinking…From the very beginning of humankind very little would have been accomplished if people didn’t believe in their ability to do something. That’s how stuff gets invented, built, troubleshoot & repaired, or create art and music…now maybe procrastination might be the closest thing to mental assent. Procrastination is waiting for the right time, inspiration or motivation “Yeah, I was going to look for a job today – but it looks like it might rain – downtown will be a mess. I’ll go next week.”
** ** ** **
2.Tendency to overcomplicate
Followers of TWI like other prosperity gospel adherents are inclined to make something more difficult than necessary. Per the trend toward point 1 obfuscation, these ‘believers’ may have the toughest time troubleshooting the problem. What is needed is to demystify the concepts. There’s been a lot of discussion on Grease Spot about the fictious law of believing– some of the most notable work is on OldSkool’s thread on Law of Believing…which inspired me to draft a few posts on commonplace believing versus religious faith – this one is probably my most concise > T-Bone's post on changed positions on doctrine Sept. 25th 2022 8:58 PM. You can check out those hyperlinks for an expansion of this – but to summarize my thoughts here: to simplify the convoluted, a clear straightforward definition is needed to distinguish between a mental function that anyone can do and the attitude of someone who trusts in God. In both instances simple believing (which anyone can do) is involved – the difference is the object or target of believing – which leads us to point 3 promotes a misplaced faith.
** ** ** **
3. Promotes a misplaced faith
When we don’t get what we want, or things don’t turn out the way we were expecting it does not automatically mean we lack faith. Disillusionment and disappointment might be a sign of misplaced faith. Faith is interwoven with our relationship with God. This point is limited to defining what Christiansdowith their faith. This is nota thesis on Bible kinds of faith, like in the faith of 1 Corinthians 12:9 .
As I hinted in point 2, the object or target of our faith is the key. In TWI, I remember one-liners in teachings that said, “you’ve got to believe in your believing”. In the blue book, the chapter on Release From Your Prisons, wierwille uses a camera analogy to instruct us to get clear and focused on what we want. Thatbecomes the object or target of your believing. In the real world of $hit that happens because of something you did– that principle works just fine.
Say I want to be a guitarist…a good guitarist…a great guitarist. What do Ido? Sit around all day looking at posters of Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, David Gilmour? Listen to their records and play air-guitar in front of the mirror to them? Well…you might begin that way…being inspired by others but it’s not magical thinking – you have to put in the effort…maybe take lessons…practice…practice…practice…you have to do stuff!
(true confessions – I was about 10-years-old – I would go in my older brother’s bedroom when he was gone – he had a killer Pioneer stereo system – he didn’t mind if I played his records…I would put on a 45 likeWalk like a Man by The Four Seasons- stand on his bed so I could see myself in the mirror over his deskand ‘play’ the badminton racket in front of the mirror – and I did the double-challenge of lip-syncing to the words and strumming the badminton racket at the same time – all you folks gloating over your chewing-gum-and-walking exploits can eat the badminton birdie – cuz I don’t need it – I’m too busy jamming in another universe…damn I was good! )
** ** ** **
4. Relies on a biased interpretation of the Bible
Proponents of the law of believing are inclined to slant definitions of faith and what it’s used for according to some blank check or wish list.
Mike said “it all narrows down to how Jesus taught on believing and the lack of believing”. Where does it say that in the Bible?
Let’s look at one account:
16“What are you arguing with them about?” he asked.
17A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.”
19“You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.”
20So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.
21Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?” “From childhood,” he answered. 22“It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”
23“ ‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”
24Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”
25When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”
26The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, “He’s dead.” 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up…Mark 9 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
Jesus mentioned an unbelieving generation – which includes his ineffective disciples - the father’s request is a good example of a doubtful generation – and in the bigger picture, lack of faith is a recurring problem see Deuteronomy 32:20andNumbers 14:11 . What is so cool about the father was that he admitted his inadequacy…Thinking a little more deeply about Mark 9, we should remember that in Mark 6 the disciples were previously successful in casting out demons; since their authority was established by Jesus Christ – it may be their faith in him was seriously shaken when Jesus revealed to them the way of the cross for him and his disciples in Mark 8 .
Mike said “in believing for miracles make sure you have a written or direct promise from God to link your believing to and then ACT on it.” Where does it say that in the Bible?
There’s probably no simpler or more clear description of faith than in Hebrews 11. The chapter focuses on attitude – “faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see” – so how can that be referring to a written promise? Faith is a spiritual perception – it’s a sense of something intangible – like verse 3 “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible”. Like in verse 27 with reference to Moses, “By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible”. Despite all obstacles, all the believers mentioned in God’s Hall of Fame (Hebrews 11) courageously obeyed God. Read the whole chapter – not all of themcame out on top in every situation:
There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning; e they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
To summarize Hebrews 11: God was pleased with their faith – though NONE of them received what was promised! What some of them got was merely a foretaste of the greater promise now accomplished in Christ.
** ** ** **
5.Has an inappropriate fixation with demonology
And the demonology is skewed to boot! In my opinion, the prolific presence and busy activity of Satan and his army in Mike’s theology has no solid biblical basis – but rather it seems to be fueled by paranoia- which I believe was heavily influenced by the delusional and irrational teachings of wierwille – especially in the Advanced Class.
In my opinion wierwille’s demonology is lopsided spiritualism with awful lot of speculation – a lot of unproven theories. Contrary to wierwille’s teachings I drafted a couple of posts on the idiom of permission thread, with information I garnered from legitimate scholars in the biblical languages and ancient cultures. You can check out these posts at your convenience here > my idiom of permission post Oct 2nd 2022 7:04 PM andhere > my idiom of permission post Oct 4th 2022 12:30 PM- for now I’ll just summarize them: Many of the ancient cultures of the Bible had a concept of a divine councilwhich basically was an assembly of deities over which a higher-level god presides. Thus, you’ll find in passages likeII Samuel 24 a narrative of God in dialog with an angel to withdraw the angel’s hand of destructionand in Job 1 and Job 2God as a manager over lesser deities.
~ ~ ~ ~
What’s the point of all this? God is sovereign! Ephesians 1:11 says God works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will…I fail to see the necessity of Mike’s ever-developing secrets of the dark side – because he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, it lacks biblical support, it gives more attention to Satan than to God, besides the fact that it promotes a feeble and pitiful view of God Almighty.
that's all for now folks
IOW, I hear and see you in your writings even when you don't spell it out in as much detail.
I get the impression He limits Himself to some kind of “Intervention Budget” SO THAT He can limit the devil to the same budget.
WHY it works this way I do not know.
Lemme get this straight....lets say that I am terminally ill and in need of a miracle because otherwise Im gone and im a single father raising 5 kids on my own and they all goto foster care should I pass. Hypothetical situation, but in a siutuation such as my hypothetical you are saying God limits himslelf to a certain unspecified number of miracles and does no more so he can limit the devil? So, as far as God is concerned I can go die so he can limit the devil and stay under budget?
The logic Mike employs is the same logic Victor employed when he squatted over and defecated into the mouth of God. It's a comedy show for the devil . He's laughing his foot off. Ask johniam.
The logic Mike employs is the same logic Victor employed when he squatted over and defecated into the mouth of God. It's a comedy show for the devil . He's laughing his foot off. Ask johniam.
I mean...gotta love Mike's fictional writing skills...
Sooooo----God is a car mechanic now. Who knew? He probably should have done a better job fixing the brakes on the car that squashed that poor little boy. Too bad it wasn't in the budget. He had to save some power for that lady's fire engine red drapes. If only she had settled for something in a more neutral color, there might have been enough power left for both jobs.
"We (YOU) have not yet really graduated to that level yet".... same ole song that wierwille played regarding "not spiritual enough to handle it." Lock box, remember? Or a number of other examples where you've got to reach spiritual maturity to see it... garbage.
Or geer, with his passing the poop manuscript.... "the way corps just haven't risen up to the level that dr. wierwille set for them." Same garbage, different trash can. We see this worn-out canard played over and over again to illicit guilt and deception. The false teachers run on the same rails because they are lazy, brain-dead hucksters. Their trappings vary little. And, Mike is one of their sycophants.
Levels? Not yet achieved a certain level? How Scientology of them. LOL
You've got to get to Level 8.... Going Clear.
So, pay up Bud. You don't get to pass Go.... until you pay another $5,000 in tithes, offerings and fees. And, that's still no guarantee that you're getting Full Spiritual Maturity Status. Heck, there's corps grads who've been around since 1972 who haven't gotten there.
Wierwille used to hold the final say-so. Now, it's kinda a relic of the past. But it's still there; a ghost of the pastl
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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Mike
Well, I see another flurry of posting all around me. I have lots of typing to greet me when I return.
Meanwhile, I noticed earlier that the term "mental assent" only comes up ONCE in the 1968 PFAL class.
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So_crates
Now what has that to do with the price of auto mechanics in Detroit. My point was I did your program and it failed miserably.
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Nathan_Jr
Criminy! It sounds like you didn't absorb it completely the first time. Let me explain...
The contents of the paper folder are NOT the contents of the cookie jar. Some people call them double doors, I call them French doors. Did you see the movie Sling Blade? It's like The Omen, but not.
See?
Math.
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OldSkool
It didn't work for Mike either, but the difference you can humbly admit wierwilles doctrines failed where Mike is still trying to figure out what we t wrong. Wierwilles version of Christianity is so very formulaic...so trying to figure out what went wrong one has to carefully check each component of the formula. Of course the main component that gets blamed is us...those who made the mistake of following a false prophet.
The correct way to rebound from failure in such matters is turn to God with a humble heart, ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened.
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Charity
How Not to Deal with Mike
Note to self: Don't get on the hamster wheel.
Note to self: Okay, I got on it again but at least this time my head didn't feel like it was going to explode.
All right, I won't get on the hamster wheel again. 
Note to self: Okay, okay, I got on it again but only because he must stop working so hard on his believing to get it to become real believing. Man, it's like he's carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders
. I was just trying to help. All right, I won't get on the hamster wheel again. 
Note to self:
Destroy the da@mn hamster wheel! So the next time I'm tempted to spend an hour of my time typing out a reply, I'll climb through some twisty tunnels, eat some hamster pellets and sleep in my nice red hide away instead.
Moral of story: When Mike starts out by saying he wants feedback about some wacko theory of his which you know he's not going to accept but instead push vp and pfal - put on the headphones and blast away with Don't be Fooled Again
!
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Rocky
Mike has been our resident TROLL for a full two-decades. He's addicted to GSC, perhaps because people actually still do get on the hamster wheel with him over and over.
Charity, I wish you the best. And I appreciate your music selection.
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OldSkool
Strangely, I think GSC is addicted to Mike....
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Rocky
We DO have relevant scriptures which run counter to Mike's half-baked notions.
i.e. the two greatest commandments. Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Why would anyone be tempted to jump on the hamster wheel with Mike? Does his vain babblings empower or enhance any reader's ability or desire to love God or one's neighbor?
Just sayin'
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Rocky
I don't necessarily agree. Perhaps certain individual readers/posters might be. But not the community as a whole, IMO.
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OldSkool
Oh any time you see my little green faced smiley guy, rest assured that I am being a smart donkey.
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skyrider
Yeah....where have we heard THAT before?
"We (YOU) have not yet really graduated to that level yet".... same ole song that wierwille played regarding "not spiritual enough to handle it." Lock box, remember? Or a number of other examples where you've got to reach spiritual maturity to see it... garbage.
Or geer, with his passing the poop manuscript.... "the way corps just haven't risen up to the level that dr. wierwille set for them." Same garbage, different trash can. We see this worn-out canard played over and over again to illicit guilt and deception. The false teachers run on the same rails because they are lazy, brain-dead hucksters. Their trappings vary little. And, Mike is one of their sycophants.
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Rocky
OTOH,
From Emotional Inheritance by Galit Atlas PhD, first two paragraphs of the last chapter (page 263):
GSC can be, and is for some, a part of journeys to process some of our emotional inheritance. Then there's Mike, stuck in a purgatory of his own making.
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T-Bone
Here’s my reasons for thinking Mike’s ‘thesis’ God’s Budget and Double Doors - On the Scarcity of Miracles is a bunch of bull$hit:
1.Tendency to obfuscate
That mental assent versus real believing dichotomy is a smokescreen to tantalize the audience to look for more power and control – prosperity gospel preachers use this to sell followers on the illusion of the law of believing aka magical thinking…From the very beginning of humankind very little would have been accomplished if people didn’t believe in their ability to do something. That’s how stuff gets invented, built, troubleshoot & repaired, or create art and music…now maybe procrastination might be the closest thing to mental assent. Procrastination is waiting for the right time, inspiration or motivation “Yeah, I was going to look for a job today – but it looks like it might rain – downtown will be a mess. I’ll go next week.”
** ** ** **
2.Tendency to overcomplicate
Followers of TWI like other prosperity gospel adherents are inclined to make something more difficult than necessary. Per the trend toward point 1 obfuscation, these ‘believers’ may have the toughest time troubleshooting the problem. What is needed is to demystify the concepts. There’s been a lot of discussion on Grease Spot about the fictious law of believing – some of the most notable work is on OldSkool’s thread on Law of Believing …which inspired me to draft a few posts on commonplace believing versus religious faith – this one is probably my most concise > T-Bone's post on changed positions on doctrine Sept. 25th 2022 8:58 PM . You can check out those hyperlinks for an expansion of this – but to summarize my thoughts here: to simplify the convoluted, a clear straightforward definition is needed to distinguish between a mental function that anyone can do and the attitude of someone who trusts in God. In both instances simple believing (which anyone can do) is involved – the difference is the object or target of believing – which leads us to point 3 promotes a misplaced faith.
** ** ** **
3. Promotes a misplaced faith
When we don’t get what we want, or things don’t turn out the way we were expecting it does not automatically mean we lack faith. Disillusionment and disappointment might be a sign of misplaced faith. Faith is interwoven with our relationship with God. This point is limited to defining what Christians do with their faith. This is not a thesis on Bible kinds of faith, like in the faith of 1 Corinthians 12:9 .
As I hinted in point 2, the object or target of our faith is the key. In TWI, I remember one-liners in teachings that said, “you’ve got to believe in your believing”. In the blue book, the chapter on Release From Your Prisons, wierwille uses a camera analogy to instruct us to get clear and focused on what we want. That becomes the object or target of your believing. In the real world of $hit that happens because of something you did – that principle works just fine.
Say I want to be a guitarist…a good guitarist…a great guitarist. What do I do? Sit around all day looking at posters of Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, David Gilmour? Listen to their records and play air-guitar in front of the mirror to them? Well…you might begin that way…being inspired by others but it’s not magical thinking – you have to put in the effort…maybe take lessons…practice…practice…practice…you have to do stuff!
(true confessions – I was about 10-years-old – I would go in my older brother’s bedroom when he was gone – he had a killer Pioneer stereo system – he didn’t mind if I played his records…I would put on a 45 like Walk like a Man by The Four Seasons - stand on his bed so I could see myself in the mirror over his desk and ‘play’ the badminton racket in front of the mirror – and I did the double-challenge of lip-syncing to the words and strumming the badminton racket at the same time – all you folks gloating over your chewing-gum-and-walking exploits can eat the badminton birdie – cuz I don’t need it – I’m too busy jamming in another universe…damn I was good!
)
** ** ** **
4. Relies on a biased interpretation of the Bible
Proponents of the law of believing are inclined to slant definitions of faith and what it’s used for according to some blank check or wish list.
Mike said “it all narrows down to how Jesus taught on believing and the lack of believing”. Where does it say that in the Bible?
Let’s look at one account:
16“What are you arguing with them about?” he asked.
17 A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18 Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.”
19 “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.”
20 So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.
21 Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?” “From childhood,” he answered. 22 “It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”
23“ ‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”
24Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”
25When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”
26The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, “He’s dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up…Mark 9 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
Jesus mentioned an unbelieving generation – which includes his ineffective disciples - the father’s request is a good example of a doubtful generation – and in the bigger picture, lack of faith is a recurring problem see Deuteronomy 32:20 and Numbers 14:11 . What is so cool about the father was that he admitted his inadequacy…Thinking a little more deeply about Mark 9, we should remember that in Mark 6 the disciples were previously successful in casting out demons; since their authority was established by Jesus Christ – it may be their faith in him was seriously shaken when Jesus revealed to them the way of the cross for him and his disciples in Mark 8 .
Mike said “in believing for miracles make sure you have a written or direct promise from God to link your believing to and then ACT on it.” Where does it say that in the Bible?
There’s probably no simpler or more clear description of faith than in Hebrews 11 . The chapter focuses on attitude – “faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see” – so how can that be referring to a written promise? Faith is a spiritual perception – it’s a sense of something intangible – like verse 3 “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible”. Like in verse 27 with reference to Moses, “By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible”. Despite all obstacles, all the believers mentioned in God’s Hall of Fame (Hebrews 11) courageously obeyed God. Read the whole chapter – not all of them came out on top in every situation:
There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning; e they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
To summarize Hebrews 11: God was pleased with their faith – though NONE of them received what was promised! What some of them got was merely a foretaste of the greater promise now accomplished in Christ.
** ** ** **
5.Has an inappropriate fixation with demonology
And the demonology is skewed to boot! In my opinion, the prolific presence and busy activity of Satan and his army in Mike’s theology has no solid biblical basis – but rather it seems to be fueled by paranoia - which I believe was heavily influenced by the delusional and irrational teachings of wierwille – especially in the Advanced Class.
In my opinion wierwille’s demonology is lopsided spiritualism with awful lot of speculation – a lot of unproven theories. Contrary to wierwille’s teachings I drafted a couple of posts on the idiom of permission thread, with information I garnered from legitimate scholars in the biblical languages and ancient cultures. You can check out these posts at your convenience here > my idiom of permission post Oct 2nd 2022 7:04 PM and here > my idiom of permission post Oct 4th 2022 12:30 PM - for now I’ll just summarize them: Many of the ancient cultures of the Bible had a concept of a divine council which basically was an assembly of deities over which a higher-level god presides. Thus, you’ll find in passages like II Samuel 24 a narrative of God in dialog with an angel to withdraw the angel’s hand of destruction and in Job 1 and Job 2 God as a manager over lesser deities.
~ ~ ~ ~
What’s the point of all this? God is sovereign! Ephesians 1:11 says God works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will…I fail to see the necessity of Mike’s ever-developing secrets of the dark side – because he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, it lacks biblical support, it gives more attention to Satan than to God, besides the fact that it promotes a feeble and pitiful view of God Almighty.
that's all for now folks
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oldiesman
But you ARE putting it on God. Isn't that basically what you suggested when starting this thread?!
You spoke about the possibility of God's budget of miracles being scarce, then wrote:
"Now another feature of this theory or hunch of mine is that the budget not only applies to the “amount” of an intervention from the spiritual to the physical, it ALSO implies a TIME BUDGET as well."
Are you now walking it back and saying lack of results when we believe is our doing?
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Rocky
I appreciate your bullet points and agree that each is a part of Mike's emotional inheritance from his "father in da vurd."... that is, I don't necessarily need to read your explanations of the bullet points to understand.
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Rocky
IOW, Mike's convoluting (and rationalizing) plenty of stuff because he isn't prepared to cope with realization he's full of $ hit. I have to wonder if he might benefit greatly from therapy like that described in Galit Atlas' book. Nevertheless, Oldiesman, I agree with your analysis of how Mike has put it back on God.
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Rocky
IOW, I hear and see you in your writings even when you don't spell it out in as much detail.
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OldSkool
Lemme get this straight....lets say that I am terminally ill and in need of a miracle because otherwise Im gone and im a single father raising 5 kids on my own and they all goto foster care should I pass. Hypothetical situation, but in a siutuation such as my hypothetical you are saying God limits himslelf to a certain unspecified number of miracles and does no more so he can limit the devil? So, as far as God is concerned I can go die so he can limit the devil and stay under budget?
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Nathan_Jr
The logic Mike employs is the same logic Victor employed when he squatted over and defecated into the mouth of God. It's a comedy show for the devil . He's laughing his foot off. Ask johniam.
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OldSkool
I mean...gotta love Mike's fictional writing skills...
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Nathan_Jr
Hey! I didn’t write the book. I didn’t coordinate the music.
Did you see The Omen?
Cookies don’t lie.
It’s true, even if you don’t believe it.
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waysider
Sooooo----God is a car mechanic now. Who knew? He probably should have done a better job fixing the brakes on the car that squashed that poor little boy. Too bad it wasn't in the budget. He had to save some power for that lady's fire engine red drapes. If only she had settled for something in a more neutral color, there might have been enough power left for both jobs.
Why, if I was a bettin' man...
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skyrider
Levels? Not yet achieved a certain level? How Scientology of them. LOL
You've got to get to Level 8.... Going Clear.
So, pay up Bud. You don't get to pass Go.... until you pay another $5,000 in tithes, offerings and fees. And, that's still no guarantee that you're getting Full Spiritual Maturity Status. Heck, there's corps grads who've been around since 1972 who haven't gotten there.
Wierwille used to hold the final say-so. Now, it's kinda a relic of the past. But it's still there; a ghost of the pastl
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Stayed Too Long
You nailed that one, for sure. There must not be adequate discussion on the website for people to give Mike even a second glance.
Mike and Bolshevik are like two peas in a pod. Ignore them and eventually the silence will chock them out.
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