"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" is an idiomatic expression for an avoidable error in which something good or of value is eliminated when trying to get rid of something unwanted. A slight A slightly different explanation suggests this flexible catchphrase has to do with discarding the essential while retaining the superfluous because of excessive zeal from: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - Wikipedia
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*footnote 2
Cheers back at yah – I usually get a Caramel Macchiato built upside down at Starbucks – but a Dutch Brothers opened nearby – so I get a Caramelizer hot and my wife gets a Golden Eagle hot – when it warms up, we get them cold.
Hey T Bone.
I also have come to the conclusion that throwing out the “bathwater” means throwing out VPWs plagiarism and grandiose schemes and charts and diagrams.
I actually start in scripture from where VP said he left.
Instead of throwing out all the commentaries I check them first to see what other inspired Christians in the body of Christ think. Then I also reason inductively from scripture.
I don’t think “the Word interprets itself” is legitimate as that is a ridiculous figure of speech not found in The Bible.
I think scripture interpretation is work and it helps each Christian to live their faith. And it should be done making use of standing on the shoulders of other Christians.
Just not on the sinking sand of VPWs stolen works.
You were quoting T-Bone and my post really isnt aimed at anyone Chock, just quoted you for convenience sake.
As for me, I heard that baby and bathwater analogy so many times from various offshoot leaders that I have basically decided that if the baby and the bathwater came from VPW or the way international then both the baby, the bathwater, and the entire tub that held them can go and Ive done just that. I think the offshoot leaders have a vested interest in keeping the baby so it can grow into another cash cow for them and they can maintain their positions as great ones amongst the flock or whatever they are these days.
I still read around commentaries and such but not VPW commentaries or the way international's commentaries. The entire plant is poison.
The typical deflective apologia I encountered when raising the issue of plagiarism (dishonesty, a lie) was, “If it’s true, what does it matter.” This, it seems to me, is weirdly equivalent to the bathing baby, or at least a limping step towards it.
What does it matter? It literally matters EVERYTHING. That’s what. The plagiarism is bad enough, but the plagiarized material is inaccurate or untrue, making it all so… ridiculous.
Why does the bathwater need throwing out? Because it’s filthy. Understood. We can all agree.
Why is the bathwater filthy? Oh, I don’t know… could it have anything to do with the rotting corpse of a baby floating in it?
It’s just ridiculous to keep a cadaver of a baby around. It’s absurd. It’s gross.
The typical deflective apologia I encountered when raising the issue of plagiarism (dishonesty, a lie) was, “If it’s true, what does it matter.” This, it seems to me, is weirdly equivalent to the bathing baby, or at least a limping step towards it.
What does it matter? It literally matters EVERYTHING. That’s what. The plagiarism is bad enough, but the plagiarized material is inaccurate or untrue, making it all so… ridiculous.
Why does the bathwater need throwing out? Because it’s filthy. Understood. We can all agree.
Why is the bathwater filthy? Oh, I don’t know… could it have anything to do with the rotting corpse of a baby floating in it?
It’s just ridiculous to keep a cadaver of a baby around. It’s absurd. It’s gross.
What does it matter that it's plagiarized?
Part of the whole package we were sold (where we were defrauded) was that this was the full work of some dedicated minister who tried to understand God and serve God the best he could, and the results were the entire package. Moreover, he claimed that- because he was so dedicated- that God Almighty had revealed to him levels of understanding that were unique to him, that nobody else had, and THAT was the entire package we were sold.
All of that was a lie, and all of that is provable as lies.
Yet, because we trusted- why would a minister of God lie? Why would he be less truthful than us? - we didn't examine things quite so closely. We didn't examine them for errors that weren't that hard to find once one begins looking for them.
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
From Bible Hub’s definitions of the Greek, I get the idea that destructive doctrines are completely severed from the truth of the Word of God; it does not imply annihilation (no longer being) but instead a loss of well-being. The doctrines are sick! Here’s my suggestion to reframe the question “did you throw out the baby with the bath water?”(see *footnote 1)...Assuming the baby is something of value, the great truths of the Bible - and of course this is all relative to what each person thinks is valuable , and the bath water is hermeneutical tools to help one understand and explain the Bible - I would ask “Why don’t you just start over? Why not throw out all the stuff you learned in PFAL and explore what legitimate resources have to offer.” I would venture to say just about everything wierwille taught in PFAL is illogical, fabricated, twisted, heavily biased, and inaccurate.
again T-Bone,
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables
2 Peter 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
I used to wonder how anyone could just sit around and develop a long-range plan to develop cunningly devised fables and then pass them off as being God's will for His people. There’s a lot of intent involved here. Maybe they didn't start out wanting to be deceivers but in the end 2 Peter 2:3 says they did it because of their greed. Greed, like pride, is a quicksand-like trap that pulls people deeper and deeper into darkness.
Because of vp's pride and greed, I don't want to scavenge through his writings searching for bits of "truth" here and there. When presented with one of his writings or a twi article, I will do my best to point out destructive heresies but I'm not saying my conclusions are the end all and be all. So everyone is free to question anything I post or take it all with a grain of salt.
In my earlier post, I wrote, "I'm not saying it's wrong to have a desire to study scripture. I'm saying that I needed to balance this with simply reading the scriptures for the joy of it and for what God wants me to see and learn from them." Adding to this, I'm also wanting to first read what is written a couple of times before using Bible Hub, interlinears, commentaries, etc. to help with my understanding as you pointed out and to see "what other inspired Christians in the body of Christ think" as Chockfull said.
So in this context, I do plan on keeping both the baby (the great truths of the Bible) and the bath water (hermeneutical tools) with the hope of keeping everything clean (2 Timothy 2:15).
Because of vp's pride and greed, I don't want to scavenge through his writings searching for bits of "truth" here and there. When presented with a twi article, I will do my best to point out destructive heresies but I'm not saying my conclusions are the end all and be all. So everyone is free to question anything I post or take it all with a grain of salt.
In my earlier post, I wrote, "I'm not saying it's wrong to have a desire to study scripture. I'm saying that I needed to balance this with simply reading the scriptures for the joy of it and for what God wants me to see and learn from them." Adding to this, I'm also wanting to first read what is written a couple of times before using Bible Hub, interlinears, commentaries, etc. to help with my understanding as you pointed out and to see "what other inspired Christians in the body of Christ think" as Chockfull said.
So in this context, I do plan on keeping both the baby (the great truths of the Bible) and the bath water (hermeneutical tools) with the hope of keeping everything clean (2 Timothy 2:15).
Hi Charity,
That’s a great way to put it – and I think most folks on Grease Spot feel the same way – that’s what the Socratic method is all about – as a form of cooperative argumentativedialogue asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions.
When I first left TWI, it was like getting out from under overbearing parents – it began as a “I’d like to try exploring the Bible myself” attitude. I realized there was a lot I didn’t know or how to go about finding out – so that was also a major ‘retooling’ time – reevaluating my study methods and go-to resources. To this day I believe I’m still openminded and on many theological topics I hope Grease Spotterscan see the tentativeness in my posts. Matter of fact, about the only time I may come across as “Oh, I think I can do a better job of honestly and clearly explaining Scripture” is when certain folks try to insinuate goofy ideas into Scripture, like the law of believing and God’s budgetary constraints. And it’s not that I think I’m the only one here who tries to be honest and clear – I’m not intoabsolute thinkingor that it’s my way or the highway like our TWI-overbearing-parents would have us believe.
There’s a lot of stuff in the Bible that’s hard to understand – and we’re never going to figure it all out anyway…and I believe Scripture can be enjoyed and understood at many different levels and from different viewpoints. There’s lots of options available.
On another thread I got into the changes to my position on various TWI doctrinesand what’s significant in my post is that after 37 years of being free from TWI’s powerful influence – through my own study, checking out legitimate resources and dialoging with Grease Spotters, what is noteworthy is that I have found options – other ways of exploring my belief system – one I’m particularly proud of is point 10 – unraveling a big bugaboo - commonplace believing and religious faith.
There’s a lot of stuff in the Bible that’s hard to understand – and we’re never going to figure it all out anyway…and I believe Scripture can be enjoyed and understood at many different levels and from different viewpoints. There’s lots of options available.
On another thread I got into the changes to my position on various TWI doctrinesand what’s significant in my post is that after 37 years of being free from TWI’s powerful influence – through my own study, checking out legitimate resources and dialoging with Grease Spotters, what is noteworthy is that I have found options – other ways of exploring my belief system – one I’m particularly proud of is point 10 – unraveling a big bugaboo - commonplace believing and religious faith.
Because of my grandson's non-verbal autism, I want to understand healing more than what I presently do. So I've been looking into prayer, trust, healing, etc. and in the meantime, I know both God and Christ Jesus are watching over him as he continues to grow and learn.
Because of my grandson's non-verbal autism, I want to understand healing more than what I presently do. So I've been looking into prayer, trust, healing, etc. and in the meantime, I know both God and Christ Jesus are watching over him as he continues to grow and learn.
Charity, don’t shortchange yourself on the enormous emotional support that I know you must give your grandson and his parents! My wife’s niece has 2 sons with autism and throughout the week, wife and niece are texting/phone calling each other. This makes me think of Galatians 6:2 NLT , Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. Thank God we are not alone during this earthly journey:
Galatians 6:2-5. Bear ye one another’s burdens — Sympathize with and assist each other, in all your weaknesses, grievances, trials. The apostle alludes to the custom of travelers, who, when too heavily laden with their baggage, relieve one another by bearing the burdens of the weak or fatigued, and in that manner show their good disposition toward each other; and so fulfil the law of Christ — Even that law of love, which he particularly and especially enjoins, terming it his new commandment, and making it the distinguishing mark of his disciples; and surely we may willingly receive that law from one who was himself such an unequalled example of love, and who with so gracious a sympathy bore our burdens of sorrow, and carried away the load of our guilt.
Intangibles like love…compassion…empathy…lending an ear do a lot of the heavy lifting even when we don’t know what specifically to do or say to help lighten someone’s load.
Charity, don’t shortchange yourself on the enormous emotional support that I know you must give your grandson and his parents! My wife’s niece has 2 sons with autism and throughout the week, wife and niece are texting/phone calling each other. This makes me think of Galatians 6:2 NLT , Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. Thank God we are not alone during this earthly journey:
Galatians 6:2-5. Bear ye one another’s burdens — Sympathize with and assist each other, in all your weaknesses, grievances, trials. The apostle alludes to the custom of travelers, who, when too heavily laden with their baggage, relieve one another by bearing the burdens of the weak or fatigued, and in that manner show their good disposition toward each other; and so fulfil the law of Christ — Even that law of love, which he particularly and especially enjoins, terming it his new commandment, and making it the distinguishing mark of his disciples; and surely we may willingly receive that law from one who was himself such an unequalled example of love, and who with so gracious a sympathy bore our burdens of sorrow, and carried away the load of our guilt.
Intangibles like love…compassion…empathy…lending an ear do a lot of the heavy lifting even when we don’t know what specifically to do or say to help lighten someone’s load.
Thanks T-Bone,
My daughter has coped fairly well over the years although there have been times when she's cried her heart out when she couldn't get the help that Cameron needed or from sheer exhaustion because of his waking up for long periods of time in the night. She has an online support group with mothers who have a child with the same genetic disorder as Cameron. Through it all though she has consistently been his comforter, advocate, nurse and admirer as he reaches each milestone, big or small.
It's an awesome privilege to know, love and care for a child with special needs and the circle of support given to these wonderful caretakers (wherever it may come come) is priceless. Being with my grandson has brought me closer to God as I learn to trust in His goodness and love for all His children.
BTW, my daughter took her daughter to see the movie Champions last week and they loved it.
On the God's Budget thread,Nathan_Jr recently wrote:
"It's merely a seductive, novel, private interpretation, a pretension, designed to impress the dull mind. Like four crucified."
and T-Bone wrote:
"Jesus Christ is found everywhere in “the Word”. Who is teaching us “the Word”? Why wierwille , of course. It’s just another way to keep fans interested. wierwille used the topic of Jesus Christ like window dressing. It’s the bait of bait-and-switch. “Want to know more about Jesus Christ? Just come into my store - we have whatever you could want or need.”
Do you think this is what motivated vp to change the armor of God to being athletic in nature - that he needed something new to captivate his audience so they would continue to believe he's this MOG doing heavy biblical research? Did he (just for once) give an explanation for why this needed to be done? In other words, what was in it for him to this? Did he somehow think we would become more spiritual if we were AOS instead of a soldier of God?
It slays me how when I start to ask questions how often a possible answer pops into my head - like couldn't I have remembered this before typing to save everyone a bunch of time . Anyways, I do remember hearing that he did it because he didn't think being a soldier fit in with the N.T. - that it's too O.T.-like or something along those lines. As a result he butchered up the Greek to prove he was right.
Somehow though, I think what Nathan_J and T-Bone said above still applies.
It's an awesome privilege to know, love and care for a child with special needs and the circle of support given to these wonderful caretakers (wherever it may come come) is priceless. Being with my grandson has brought me closer to God as I learn to trust in His goodness and love for all His children.
Charity, I think you would really enjoy and benefit from the book "Adam: God's Beloved" by Henri Nouwen. Available for pennies secondhand on Amazon. It's not a thick book, but there is profound wisdom in it.
"Henri Nouwen completed Adam: God's Beloved just weeks before his death in 1996. It is a personal memoir about his friendship with Adam, a severely handicapped man he knew at the L'Arche Daybreak Community in Canada. Although Adam could not speak and was wracked with violent seizures, Nouwen called Adam my friend, my teacher, and my guide, and credited Adam with renewing his faith in a particularly dark period of life. Thanks to Adam, Nouwen came to understand the central questions of Christian theology in a way that transcended all statements of belief, and instead found joy in the mere gift of human existence."
"In the final year before his death in 1996, Henri Nouwen set out to write a book about the Creed. His plans changed when he learned of the death of his friend Adam, a severely handicapped young man from the L'Arche Daybreak Community outside Toronto where Nouwen lived. In the story of Adam he found a way to describe his own understanding of the Gospel message. Adam could not speak or even move without assistance. Gripped by frequent seizures, he spent his life in obscurity. And yet, for Nouwen, Adam became my friend, my teacher, and my guide. It was Adam who led Nouwen to a new understanding of his faith and what it means to be Beloved of God. Through the story of Adam, Nouwen found a new way to tell God's story of Jesus and the story of all of us human creatures, broken and yet beloved, who live in a world charged with the mystery of God's overwhelming love. Completed only weeks before his own death, Adam: God's Beloved became Nouwen's final, precious gift, a fitting summation of his own message and legacy."
After that, you might like to try "Life of the Beloved" which isn't about Adam or any kind of continuation of the first book above. Actually, it's about You. And Me. And every other Christian, and their life in Christ.
Initially written for a Jewish friend, Life of the Beloved has become Henri Nouwen's greatest legacy to Christians around the world. This sincere testimony of the power and invitation of Christ is indeed a great guide to a truly uplifting spiritual life in today's world.
Henri Nouwen was born in Holland in 1932 and ordained a Catholic priest in 1957. He obtained his doctorandus in psychology from Nijmegen University in The Netherlands and taught at Notre Dame, Yale, and Harvard. He experienced the monastic life with Trappist monks at the Abbey of the Genesee, lived among the poor in Latin America with the Maryknoll missioners, and was interested and active in numerous causes related to social justice. After a lifetime of seeking, Henri Nouwen finally found his home in Canada, as pastor of L'Arche Daybreak - where people with intellectual disabilities and their caregivers live together in community.
Henri Nouwen wrote over 40 books on spirituality and the spiritual life that have sold millions of copies and been translated into dozens of languages. His vision of spirituality was broad and inclusive, and his compassion embraced all of humankind.
He died in 1996. His work and his spirit live on.
Henri Nouwen pronounced his name "Henry Now-en." For more information on his life and work, please visit www.henrinouwen.org
Charity, I think you would really enjoy and benefit from the book "Adam: God's Beloved" by Henri Nouwen. Available for pennies secondhand on Amazon. It's not a thick book, but there is profound wisdom in it.
"Henri Nouwen completed Adam: God's Beloved just weeks before his death in 1996. It is a personal memoir about his friendship with Adam, a severely handicapped man he knew at the L'Arche Daybreak Community in Canada. Although Adam could not speak and was wracked with violent seizures, Nouwen called Adam my friend, my teacher, and my guide, and credited Adam with renewing his faith in a particularly dark period of life. Thanks to Adam, Nouwen came to understand the central questions of Christian theology in a way that transcended all statements of belief, and instead found joy in the mere gift of human existence."
"In the final year before his death in 1996, Henri Nouwen set out to write a book about the Creed. His plans changed when he learned of the death of his friend Adam, a severely handicapped young man from the L'Arche Daybreak Community outside Toronto where Nouwen lived. In the story of Adam he found a way to describe his own understanding of the Gospel message. Adam could not speak or even move without assistance. Gripped by frequent seizures, he spent his life in obscurity. And yet, for Nouwen, Adam became my friend, my teacher, and my guide. It was Adam who led Nouwen to a new understanding of his faith and what it means to be Beloved of God. Through the story of Adam, Nouwen found a new way to tell God's story of Jesus and the story of all of us human creatures, broken and yet beloved, who live in a world charged with the mystery of God's overwhelming love. Completed only weeks before his own death, Adam: God's Beloved became Nouwen's final, precious gift, a fitting summation of his own message and legacy."
After that, you might like to try "Life of the Beloved" which isn't about Adam or any kind of continuation of the first book above. Actually, it's about You. And Me. And every other Christian, and their life in Christ.
Initially written for a Jewish friend, Life of the Beloved has become Henri Nouwen's greatest legacy to Christians around the world. This sincere testimony of the power and invitation of Christ is indeed a great guide to a truly uplifting spiritual life in today's world.
Henri Nouwen was born in Holland in 1932 and ordained a Catholic priest in 1957. He obtained his doctorandus in psychology from Nijmegen University in The Netherlands and taught at Notre Dame, Yale, and Harvard. He experienced the monastic life with Trappist monks at the Abbey of the Genesee, lived among the poor in Latin America with the Maryknoll missioners, and was interested and active in numerous causes related to social justice. After a lifetime of seeking, Henri Nouwen finally found his home in Canada, as pastor of L'Arche Daybreak - where people with intellectual disabilities and their caregivers live together in community.
Henri Nouwen wrote over 40 books on spirituality and the spiritual life that have sold millions of copies and been translated into dozens of languages. His vision of spirituality was broad and inclusive, and his compassion embraced all of humankind.
He died in 1996. His work and his spirit live on.
Henri Nouwen pronounced his name "Henry Now-en." For more information on his life and work, please visit www.henrinouwen.org
I just finished reading the introduction of Adam: God's Beloved. It's so extraordinary in nature - I can't wait to ready it. Thank you so much for mentioning it.
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables
2 Peter 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
I used to wonder how anyone could just sit around and develop a long-range plan to develop cunningly devised fables and then pass them off as being God's will for His people. There’s a lot of intent involved here. Maybe they didn't start out wanting to be deceivers but in the end 2 Peter 2:3 says they did it because of their greed. Greed, like pride, is a quicksand-like trap that pulls people deeper and deeper into darkness.
Because of vp's pride and greed, I don't want to scavenge through his writings searching for bits of "truth" here and there. When presented with one of his writings or a twi article, I will do my best to point out destructive heresies but I'm not saying my conclusions are the end all and be all. So everyone is free to question anything I post or take it all with a grain of salt.
In my earlier post, I wrote, "I'm not saying it's wrong to have a desire to study scripture. I'm saying that I needed to balance this with simply reading the scriptures for the joy of it and for what God wants me to see and learn from them." Adding to this, I'm also wanting to first read what is written a couple of times before using Bible Hub, interlinears, commentaries, etc. to help with my understanding as you pointed out and to see "what other inspired Christians in the body of Christ think" as Chockfull said.
So in this context, I do plan on keeping both the baby (the great truths of the Bible) and the bath water (hermeneutical tools) with the hope of keeping everything clean (2 Timothy 2:15).
Hey Charity,
That is super cool with the dual approach of tools plus simple reading.
I am probably focused 80% currently on simplicity, reading and untangling doctrine and maybe 20% on using Bibleworks to dissect scripture. For me that works to keep out of the “scribe mentality” another group of legalists confronted by Christ.
I am currently less enamored with the “how maths work” aspect of scriptures fitting “with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision” I kind of feel that path leading to more traps. But without your hands in the recipe making the dish doesn’t turn out at all.
Trying for a balanced approach. Usually I see it swinging by the balance lol.
I am currently less enamored with the “how maths work” aspect of scriptures fitting “with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision” I kind of feel that path leading to more traps.
Where did he get that rubbish phrase anyway?
I can appreciate that a trained physicist might feel that way. But vpw? If his maths skills were anything like as good as his English skills - well, hahahaha. The man didn't understand English, neither words nor grammar. (Let alone Greek or Aramaic, what a joke.)
That has to be another phrase that this thief stole from some more worthy person.
I can appreciate that a trained physicist might feel that way. But vpw? If his maths skills were anything like as good as his English skills - well, hahahaha. The man didn't understand English, neither words nor grammar. (Let alone Greek or Aramaic, what a joke.)
That has to be another phrase that this thief stole from some more worthy person.
Not sure where he got it from but it was nothing more than a sales pitch.
I wouldn't say he took it from A.W. Tozzer, but Tozzer said something that speaks to the essence of it.
“All nature has come to expect from God a sense of orderliness. Whatever God does carries with it His fingerprint. And in the world around us His fingerprint of orderliness is evident to anybody who is honest with the facts. If you look at nature, you will discover a mathematical exactness. Without this precision, the entire world would be in utter confusion. One plus one always equals two no matter what part of the universe you happen to be in. And the laws of nature operate in beautiful harmony, a harmony that is ordered by God Himself.” ―A.W. Tozer,And He Dwelt Among Us: Teachings from the Gospel of John
Of course, in reality, one plus one does not always equal two and the laws of nature are chaotic, at best.
But vpw? If his maths skills were anything like as good as his English skills - well, hahahaha. The man didn't understand English, neither words nor grammar. (Let alone Greek or Aramaic, what a joke.)
This is demonstrably, objectively true. I would add Hebrew and Latin to the list of languages he simply didn’t understand. Anyone who is curious or doubtful of this observable fact can find out for themselves.
Language skills are sadly lacking among every demographic in this country, even among our educators. I am constantly correcting the poorly written documents my son brings home from school.
This is demonstrably, objectively true. I would add Hebrew and Latin to the list of languages he simply didn’t understand. Anyone who is curious or doubtful of this observable fact can find out for themselves.
Language skills are sadly lacking among every demographic in this country, even among our educators. I am constantly correcting the poorly written documents my son brings home from school.
It also is telling way publications had to rework all of his printed publications to take his crazy claims out, sanitize his rants, and hide his lacking command of languages.
I can appreciate that a trained physicist might feel that way. But vpw? If his maths skills were anything like as good as his English skills - well, hahahaha. The man didn't understand English, neither words nor grammar. (Let alone Greek or Aramaic, what a joke.)
That has to be another phrase that this thief stole from some more worthy person.
41 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
This is demonstrably, objectively true. I would add Hebrew and Latin to the list of languages he simply didn’t understand. Anyone who is curious or doubtful of this observable fact can find out for themselves.
Language skills are sadly lacking among every demographic in this country, even among our educators. I am constantly correcting the poorly written documents my son brings home from school.
30 minutes ago, OldSkool said:
It also is telling way publications had to rework all of his printed publications to take his crazy claims out, sanitize his rants, and hide his lacking command of languages.
My oh my…we’ve come a long way from the 1942 promise, God’s audible voice, snow covered gas pumps, a guy with a lame arm, plagiarized material, doggie porn and molesting women …oh…I’m sorry - just trying to remember why I was supposed to trust and believe wierwille.
1. not looking past all of wierwille’s shortcomings
and
2. Going in the way corps and following the man of god’s exact orders.
1. I mean...its those exact shortcomings he nurtured, hid, and lusted for his entire ministry. One has to ignore to make it fit because if one acknowledges them and believes what the Bible says then it become quite obvious he was a wolf in sheeps clothing.
2. But...but...its the way corps that messed everything up...didnt ya know?
I wouldn't say he took it from A.W. Tozzer, but Tozzer said something that speaks to the essence of it.
“All nature has come to expect from God a sense of orderliness. Whatever God does carries with it His fingerprint. And in the world around us His fingerprint of orderliness is evident to anybody who is honest with the facts. If you look at nature, you will discover a mathematical exactness. Without this precision, the entire world would be in utter confusion. One plus one always equals two no matter what part of the universe you happen to be in. And the laws of nature operate in beautiful harmony, a harmony that is ordered by God Himself.” ―A.W. Tozer,And He Dwelt Among Us: Teachings from the Gospel of John
Of course, in reality, one plus one does not always equal two and the laws of nature are chaotic, at best.
I highly suspect that if you look in Tozers sock drawer you will see the same “beautiful harmony, a harmony that is ordered by God Himself” right there.
Under my own personal definition of an athlete, with a dash/heap of anecdotal experience, I think athletes of the spirit is a very apt description of at least Christians, but most definitely wafers.
Dictionary.com states that an athlete is a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill.
In today's world I operationalize it as someone who is not only participating in a physical sport, but their master status and life is oriented around the notion of being an athlete. Generally speaking, but not in all cases, said person would have to be actively participating/training in a sport as well (and perhaps even at the highest level of competition that they can). AAU, the high school team, college, military, and so on.
I have been an athlete for my entire life up until about 5 years go through team sports, my job in the military, racing motorcycles and cars, and surfing competitions. As an athlete and a teacher at a very large Division 1 University who has literally had entire basketball, football, baseball, softball, and soccer teams in my classroom at the same time - athletes are not something that anyone should look up to. Athletes in this world are children. They are dumb, they are ignorant, and they do not care about things that do not affect their sport, team, or own physical abilities. They have no respect for those not in their circle. Those I taught in my classes were all Division 1 athletes and some have gone onto being professional athletes as children. I would never look up to any of them and I never have told anyone about my being an athlete because of how I see them and because I can unequivocally say that I was just as bad as anyone I am referring to. They are too narrow-minded and only care about their physical abilities in so much that it elevates them above others. They believe they are better than others because they can do X or Y better than the next person, or you.
Also, these teams would only be in my 300 person classrooms, not the 75 person ones, and they would sit in the back corners with their backs to me and their headphones on. They would have a chaperone follow them to my class to make sure they made it and then would come back after to make sure they were still there. EVEN THE UNIVERSITY KNEW THESE KIDS DIDN'T HAVE THERE SH!T TOGETHER. But all of the money that Universities get is basically through sport. All Division 1 schools shut down the campus for game days, fyi. Learning does not matter when millions of dollars are about to pour in.
I am generalizing. I understand not all athletes are like this. But I would say that over 50% definitely are. Based on GPA's of said athletes I am being very generous in my opinion. I remember when my favorite Kansas University point guard back in the day graduated with a 4.0 and went on to the NBA, it was such a big deal lol.
Anywhooo, I see no difference between athletes in college/professional level and those in TWI. Their way or the highway. Listen to what I have to say I'm better than you. I don't talk to people like you because you are not at the same level as me. I see athletes as young and dumb and willing to do whatever they are told to be on the team, much like TWI. Once on said team they will take almost any type of mental or physical abuse to stay or the team, or to be ranked higher within their own team, let alone their sport. I see coaches, trainers, and any other type of leadership as the same as in TWI/Christianity. Utilizing their position for their own status and egos at the cost of those beneath them. Yet those involved will defend the leadership because it is "making them stronger, better, more disciplined," et cetera. Leaders will control the athlete (read ignorant child still figuring out him/herself through the only lens they know, competition). Athletes have huge mental problems today, huge. The higher up you go in competition the more you will see how these athletes are not well-rounded and have little to no social and cognitive thinking skills. As long as they "strive to be #1 in everything they do" no one cares, let alone themselves, how skewed these kids' mental capacities really are.
(And yes, I am including myself here. For the record, I decided I no longer wanted to be one of these people and literally threw my surfboard down at a competition as a symbol to myself and decided to go back to college. I thought I was better than everyone around me and I had no basis to think that. I told myself I had to prove it. So I stopped being an athlete and instead took a new path and outlook on how to approach life.)
Everything I have said gets compounded 10 fold when said athletes participate in non-team sports, any type of racing, and especially any Olympic sport. Sociology, the discipline I have studied for a fortnite or two *wink*, lays out how they are basically slaves in the modern era. I would agree. But we look the other way because we have created a society in which only having one physical skill is supposedly better than having a hundred cognitive/social skills, and we put the highest dollar amount to this physical skill. If you are a man anyway...
So when I see the term "athletes of the spirit" I think wafers definitely are an Christians are but not as badly. I smile inside when I see the term and I don't think it should stopped being used. Their viewpoint of the spiritual is just as skewed as athletes' viewpoints and reasoning are in the physical. They both believe they are better than you because...of this one thing they have that you don't.
Just an alternative perspective from someone who has had some of the same spiritual experiences as you.
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Twinky
It's actually not a bad article - but it's ruined by the pseudo-intellectualism of stuffing in assorted Greek words, which in context add absolutely nothing to the article. If they were removed, the
chockfull
Well my observations are the “second thoughts” of VP had more to do with the extremity of LCMs antics than actual scripture concerns. “The ministry is the Word and the word is the ministry”. VPW
OldSkool
You were quoting T-Bone and my post really isnt aimed at anyone Chock, just quoted you for convenience sake. As for me, I heard that baby and bathwater analogy so many times from various o
chockfull
Hey T Bone.
I also have come to the conclusion that throwing out the “bathwater” means throwing out VPWs plagiarism and grandiose schemes and charts and diagrams.
I actually start in scripture from where VP said he left.
Instead of throwing out all the commentaries I check them first to see what other inspired Christians in the body of Christ think. Then I also reason inductively from scripture.
I don’t think “the Word interprets itself” is legitimate as that is a ridiculous figure of speech not found in The Bible.
I think scripture interpretation is work and it helps each Christian to live their faith. And it should be done making use of standing on the shoulders of other Christians.
Just not on the sinking sand of VPWs stolen works.
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OldSkool
You were quoting T-Bone and my post really isnt aimed at anyone Chock, just quoted you for convenience sake.
As for me, I heard that baby and bathwater analogy so many times from various offshoot leaders that I have basically decided that if the baby and the bathwater came from VPW or the way international then both the baby, the bathwater, and the entire tub that held them can go and Ive done just that. I think the offshoot leaders have a vested interest in keeping the baby so it can grow into another cash cow for them and they can maintain their positions as great ones amongst the flock or whatever they are these days.
I still read around commentaries and such but not VPW commentaries or the way international's commentaries. The entire plant is poison.
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Nathan_Jr
Yep. Yep. And yep.
The typical deflective apologia I encountered when raising the issue of plagiarism (dishonesty, a lie) was, “If it’s true, what does it matter.” This, it seems to me, is weirdly equivalent to the bathing baby, or at least a limping step towards it.
What does it matter? It literally matters EVERYTHING. That’s what. The plagiarism is bad enough, but the plagiarized material is inaccurate or untrue, making it all so… ridiculous.
Why does the bathwater need throwing out? Because it’s filthy. Understood. We can all agree.
Why is the bathwater filthy? Oh, I don’t know… could it have anything to do with the rotting corpse of a baby floating in it?
It’s just ridiculous to keep a cadaver of a baby around. It’s absurd. It’s gross.
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WordWolf
What does it matter that it's plagiarized?
Part of the whole package we were sold (where we were defrauded) was that this was the full work of some dedicated minister who tried to understand God and serve God the best he could, and the results were the entire package. Moreover, he claimed that- because he was so dedicated- that God Almighty had revealed to him levels of understanding that were unique to him, that nobody else had, and THAT was the entire package we were sold.
All of that was a lie, and all of that is provable as lies.
Yet, because we trusted- why would a minister of God lie? Why would he be less truthful than us? - we didn't examine things quite so closely. We didn't examine them for errors that weren't that hard to find once one begins looking for them.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030220025532/http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/plagiarism-wierwille.htm
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Charity
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables
2 Peter 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
I used to wonder how anyone could just sit around and develop a long-range plan to develop cunningly devised fables and then pass them off as being God's will for His people. There’s a lot of intent involved here. Maybe they didn't start out wanting to be deceivers but in the end 2 Peter 2:3 says they did it because of their greed. Greed, like pride, is a quicksand-like trap that pulls people deeper and deeper into darkness.
Because of vp's pride and greed, I don't want to scavenge through his writings searching for bits of "truth" here and there. When presented with one of his writings or a twi article, I will do my best to point out destructive heresies but I'm not saying my conclusions are the end all and be all. So everyone is free to question anything I post or take it all with a grain of salt.
In my earlier post, I wrote, "I'm not saying it's wrong to have a desire to study scripture. I'm saying that I needed to balance this with simply reading the scriptures for the joy of it and for what God wants me to see and learn from them." Adding to this, I'm also wanting to first read what is written a couple of times before using Bible Hub, interlinears, commentaries, etc. to help with my understanding as you pointed out and to see "what other inspired Christians in the body of Christ think" as Chockfull said.
So in this context, I do plan on keeping both the baby (the great truths of the Bible) and the bath water (hermeneutical tools) with the hope of keeping everything clean (2 Timothy 2:15).
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T-Bone
Hi Charity,
That’s a great way to put it – and I think most folks on Grease Spot feel the same way – that’s what the Socratic method is all about – as a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions.
When I first left TWI, it was like getting out from under overbearing parents – it began as a “I’d like to try exploring the Bible myself” attitude. I realized there was a lot I didn’t know or how to go about finding out – so that was also a major ‘retooling’ time – reevaluating my study methods and go-to resources. To this day I believe I’m still openminded and on many theological topics I hope Grease Spotters can see the tentativeness in my posts. Matter of fact, about the only time I may come across as “Oh, I think I can do a better job of honestly and clearly explaining Scripture” is when certain folks try to insinuate goofy ideas into Scripture, like the law of believing and God’s budgetary constraints. And it’s not that I think I’m the only one here who tries to be honest and clear – I’m not into absolute thinking or that it’s my way or the highway like our TWI-overbearing-parents would have us believe.
There’s a lot of stuff in the Bible that’s hard to understand – and we’re never going to figure it all out anyway…and I believe Scripture can be enjoyed and understood at many different levels and from different viewpoints. There’s lots of options available.
On another thread I got into the changes to my position on various TWI doctrines and what’s significant in my post is that after 37 years of being free from TWI’s powerful influence – through my own study, checking out legitimate resources and dialoging with Grease Spotters, what is noteworthy is that I have found options – other ways of exploring my belief system – one I’m particularly proud of is point 10 – unraveling a big bugaboo - commonplace believing and religious faith.
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Charity
Because of my grandson's non-verbal autism, I want to understand healing more than what I presently do. So I've been looking into prayer, trust, healing, etc. and in the meantime, I know both God and Christ Jesus are watching over him as he continues to grow and learn.
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T-Bone
Charity, don’t shortchange yourself on the enormous emotional support that I know you must give your grandson and his parents! My wife’s niece has 2 sons with autism and throughout the week, wife and niece are texting/phone calling each other. This makes me think of Galatians 6:2 NLT , Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. Thank God we are not alone during this earthly journey:
Benson Commentary
Galatians 6:2-5. Bear ye one another’s burdens — Sympathize with and assist each other, in all your weaknesses, grievances, trials. The apostle alludes to the custom of travelers, who, when too heavily laden with their baggage, relieve one another by bearing the burdens of the weak or fatigued, and in that manner show their good disposition toward each other; and so fulfil the law of Christ — Even that law of love, which he particularly and especially enjoins, terming it his new commandment, and making it the distinguishing mark of his disciples; and surely we may willingly receive that law from one who was himself such an unequalled example of love, and who with so gracious a sympathy bore our burdens of sorrow, and carried away the load of our guilt.
End of commentary excerpts from Galatians 6:2 Commentaries
~ ~ ~ ~
Intangibles like love…compassion…empathy…lending an ear do a lot of the heavy lifting even when we don’t know what specifically to do or say to help lighten someone’s load.
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Charity
Thanks T-Bone,
My daughter has coped fairly well over the years although there have been times when she's cried her heart out when she couldn't get the help that Cameron needed or from sheer exhaustion because of his waking up for long periods of time in the night. She has an online support group with mothers who have a child with the same genetic disorder as Cameron. Through it all though she has consistently been his comforter, advocate, nurse and admirer as he reaches each milestone, big or small.
It's an awesome privilege to know, love and care for a child with special needs and the circle of support given to these wonderful caretakers (wherever it may come come) is priceless. Being with my grandson has brought me closer to God as I learn to trust in His goodness and love for all His children.
BTW, my daughter took her daughter to see the movie Champions last week and they loved it.
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Charity
On the God's Budget thread,Nathan_Jr recently wrote:
"It's merely a seductive, novel, private interpretation, a pretension, designed to impress the dull mind. Like four crucified."
and T-Bone wrote:
"Jesus Christ is found everywhere in “the Word”. Who is teaching us “the Word”? Why wierwille , of course. It’s just another way to keep fans interested. wierwille used the topic of Jesus Christ like window dressing. It’s the bait of bait-and-switch. “Want to know more about Jesus Christ? Just come into my store - we have whatever you could want or need.”
Do you think this is what motivated vp to change the armor of God to being athletic in nature - that he needed something new to captivate his audience so they would continue to believe he's this MOG doing heavy biblical research? Did he (just for once) give an explanation for why this needed to be done? In other words, what was in it for him to this? Did he somehow think we would become more spiritual if we were AOS instead of a soldier of God?
It slays me how when I start to ask questions how often a possible answer pops into my head
- like couldn't I have remembered this before typing to save everyone a bunch of time 
. Anyways, I do remember hearing that he did it because he didn't think being a soldier fit in with the N.T. - that it's too O.T.-like or something along those lines. As a result he butchered up the Greek to prove he was right.
Somehow though, I think what Nathan_J and T-Bone said above still applies.
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Twinky
Charity, I think you would really enjoy and benefit from the book "Adam: God's Beloved" by Henri Nouwen. Available for pennies secondhand on Amazon. It's not a thick book, but there is profound wisdom in it.
"In the final year before his death in 1996, Henri Nouwen set out to write a book about the Creed. His plans changed when he learned of the death of his friend Adam, a severely handicapped young man from the L'Arche Daybreak Community outside Toronto where Nouwen lived. In the story of Adam he found a way to describe his own understanding of the Gospel message. Adam could not speak or even move without assistance. Gripped by frequent seizures, he spent his life in obscurity. And yet, for Nouwen, Adam became my friend, my teacher, and my guide. It was Adam who led Nouwen to a new understanding of his faith and what it means to be Beloved of God. Through the story of Adam, Nouwen found a new way to tell God's story of Jesus and the story of all of us human creatures, broken and yet beloved, who live in a world charged with the mystery of God's overwhelming love. Completed only weeks before his own death, Adam: God's Beloved became Nouwen's final, precious gift, a fitting summation of his own message and legacy."
After that, you might like to try "Life of the Beloved" which isn't about Adam or any kind of continuation of the first book above. Actually, it's about You. And Me. And every other Christian, and their life in Christ.
Initially written for a Jewish friend, Life of the Beloved has become Henri Nouwen's greatest legacy to Christians around the world. This sincere testimony of the power and invitation of Christ is indeed a great guide to a truly uplifting spiritual life in today's world.
Henri Nouwen was born in Holland in 1932 and ordained a Catholic priest in 1957. He obtained his doctorandus in psychology from Nijmegen University in The Netherlands and taught at Notre Dame, Yale, and Harvard. He experienced the monastic life with Trappist monks at the Abbey of the Genesee, lived among the poor in Latin America with the Maryknoll missioners, and was interested and active in numerous causes related to social justice. After a lifetime of seeking, Henri Nouwen finally found his home in Canada, as pastor of L'Arche Daybreak - where people with intellectual disabilities and their caregivers live together in community.
Henri Nouwen wrote over 40 books on spirituality and the spiritual life that have sold millions of copies and been translated into dozens of languages. His vision of spirituality was broad and inclusive, and his compassion embraced all of humankind.
He died in 1996. His work and his spirit live on.
Henri Nouwen pronounced his name "Henry Now-en." For more information on his life and work, please visit www.henrinouwen.org
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Charity
I just finished reading the introduction of Adam: God's Beloved. It's so extraordinary in nature - I can't wait to ready it. Thank you so much for mentioning it.
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chockfull
Hey Charity,
That is super cool with the dual approach of tools plus simple reading.
I am probably focused 80% currently on simplicity, reading and untangling doctrine and maybe 20% on using Bibleworks to dissect scripture. For me that works to keep out of the “scribe mentality” another group of legalists confronted by Christ.
I am currently less enamored with the “how maths work” aspect of scriptures fitting “with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision” I kind of feel that path leading to more traps. But without your hands in the recipe making the dish doesn’t turn out at all.
Trying for a balanced approach. Usually I see it swinging by the balance lol.
Best,
C
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Twinky
Where did he get that rubbish phrase anyway?
I can appreciate that a trained physicist might feel that way. But vpw? If his maths skills were anything like as good as his English skills - well, hahahaha. The man didn't understand English, neither words nor grammar. (Let alone Greek or Aramaic, what a joke.)
That has to be another phrase that this thief stole from some more worthy person.
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OldSkool
Not sure where he got it from but it was nothing more than a sales pitch.
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waysider
I wouldn't say he took it from A.W. Tozzer, but Tozzer said something that speaks to the essence of it.
“All nature has come to expect from God a sense of orderliness. Whatever God does carries with it His fingerprint. And in the world around us His fingerprint of orderliness is evident to anybody who is honest with the facts. If you look at nature, you will discover a mathematical exactness. Without this precision, the entire world would be in utter confusion. One plus one always equals two no matter what part of the universe you happen to be in. And the laws of nature operate in beautiful harmony, a harmony that is ordered by God Himself.”
― A.W. Tozer, And He Dwelt Among Us: Teachings from the Gospel of John
Of course, in reality, one plus one does not always equal two and the laws of nature are chaotic, at best.
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Nathan_Jr
This is demonstrably, objectively true. I would add Hebrew and Latin to the list of languages he simply didn’t understand. Anyone who is curious or doubtful of this observable fact can find out for themselves.
Language skills are sadly lacking among every demographic in this country, even among our educators. I am constantly correcting the poorly written documents my son brings home from school.
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OldSkool
It also is telling way publications had to rework all of his printed publications to take his crazy claims out, sanitize his rants, and hide his lacking command of languages.
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T-Bone
My oh my…we’ve come a long way from the 1942 promise, God’s audible voice, snow covered gas pumps, a guy with a lame arm, plagiarized material, doggie porn and molesting women …oh…I’m sorry - just trying to remember why I was supposed to trust and believe wierwille.
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OldSkool
I dunno...you'll have to ask Mike.
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T-Bone
I’d rather not start that vicious cycle again …I don’t like it when I sense certain wierwille fans may be trying to guilt-trip me for :
1. not looking past all of wierwille’s shortcomings
and
2. Going in the way corps and following the man of god’s exact orders.
But then again - I’m a glutton for punishment so maybe I will ask him…
…and gluttony is a sin…that’s part of that viscious cycle I guess.
Edited by T-BoneF.E.A.R. = fake editor appearing real
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OldSkool
1. I mean...its those exact shortcomings he nurtured, hid, and lusted for his entire ministry. One has to ignore to make it fit because if one acknowledges them and believes what the Bible says then it become quite obvious he was a wolf in sheeps clothing.
2. But...but...its the way corps that messed everything up...didnt ya know?
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chockfull
I highly suspect that if you look in Tozers sock drawer you will see the same “beautiful harmony, a harmony that is ordered by God Himself” right there.
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Beguiled
Under my own personal definition of an athlete, with a dash/heap of anecdotal experience, I think athletes of the spirit is a very apt description of at least Christians, but most definitely wafers.
Dictionary.com states that an athlete is a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill.
In today's world I operationalize it as someone who is not only participating in a physical sport, but their master status and life is oriented around the notion of being an athlete. Generally speaking, but not in all cases, said person would have to be actively participating/training in a sport as well (and perhaps even at the highest level of competition that they can). AAU, the high school team, college, military, and so on.
I have been an athlete for my entire life up until about 5 years go through team sports, my job in the military, racing motorcycles and cars, and surfing competitions. As an athlete and a teacher at a very large Division 1 University who has literally had entire basketball, football, baseball, softball, and soccer teams in my classroom at the same time - athletes are not something that anyone should look up to. Athletes in this world are children. They are dumb, they are ignorant, and they do not care about things that do not affect their sport, team, or own physical abilities. They have no respect for those not in their circle. Those I taught in my classes were all Division 1 athletes and some have gone onto being professional athletes as children. I would never look up to any of them and I never have told anyone about my being an athlete because of how I see them and because I can unequivocally say that I was just as bad as anyone I am referring to. They are too narrow-minded and only care about their physical abilities in so much that it elevates them above others. They believe they are better than others because they can do X or Y better than the next person, or you.
Also, these teams would only be in my 300 person classrooms, not the 75 person ones, and they would sit in the back corners with their backs to me and their headphones on. They would have a chaperone follow them to my class to make sure they made it and then would come back after to make sure they were still there. EVEN THE UNIVERSITY KNEW THESE KIDS DIDN'T HAVE THERE SH!T TOGETHER. But all of the money that Universities get is basically through sport. All Division 1 schools shut down the campus for game days, fyi. Learning does not matter when millions of dollars are about to pour in.
I am generalizing. I understand not all athletes are like this. But I would say that over 50% definitely are. Based on GPA's of said athletes I am being very generous in my opinion. I remember when my favorite Kansas University point guard back in the day graduated with a 4.0 and went on to the NBA, it was such a big deal lol.
Anywhooo, I see no difference between athletes in college/professional level and those in TWI. Their way or the highway. Listen to what I have to say I'm better than you. I don't talk to people like you because you are not at the same level as me. I see athletes as young and dumb and willing to do whatever they are told to be on the team, much like TWI. Once on said team they will take almost any type of mental or physical abuse to stay or the team, or to be ranked higher within their own team, let alone their sport. I see coaches, trainers, and any other type of leadership as the same as in TWI/Christianity. Utilizing their position for their own status and egos at the cost of those beneath them. Yet those involved will defend the leadership because it is "making them stronger, better, more disciplined," et cetera. Leaders will control the athlete (read ignorant child still figuring out him/herself through the only lens they know, competition). Athletes have huge mental problems today, huge. The higher up you go in competition the more you will see how these athletes are not well-rounded and have little to no social and cognitive thinking skills. As long as they "strive to be #1 in everything they do" no one cares, let alone themselves, how skewed these kids' mental capacities really are.
(And yes, I am including myself here. For the record, I decided I no longer wanted to be one of these people and literally threw my surfboard down at a competition as a symbol to myself and decided to go back to college. I thought I was better than everyone around me and I had no basis to think that. I told myself I had to prove it. So I stopped being an athlete and instead took a new path and outlook on how to approach life.)
Everything I have said gets compounded 10 fold when said athletes participate in non-team sports, any type of racing, and especially any Olympic sport. Sociology, the discipline I have studied for a fortnite or two *wink*, lays out how they are basically slaves in the modern era. I would agree. But we look the other way because we have created a society in which only having one physical skill is supposedly better than having a hundred cognitive/social skills, and we put the highest dollar amount to this physical skill. If you are a man anyway...
So when I see the term "athletes of the spirit" I think wafers definitely are an Christians are but not as badly. I smile inside when I see the term and I don't think it should stopped being used. Their viewpoint of the spiritual is just as skewed as athletes' viewpoints and reasoning are in the physical. They both believe they are better than you because...of this one thing they have that you don't.
Just an alternative perspective from someone who has had some of the same spiritual experiences as you.
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