I had a close childhood friend who was diagnosed in his teens. He was in and out of treatment facilities and prescribed several medications. This was over 50 years ago. A lot has changed. Long story short, he became suicidal and ended his life just shy of his 21st birthday, just as it seemed like he was making progress with treatment.. I had the misfortune of being the one to discover his body. He was a great guy. You couldn't ask for a better friend.
It's not at all like you see in movies and it's not always scary or dangerous. They can sometimes see things, hear things, smell things that aren't really there or remember having a conversation that never took place. But, that's not always the case. Sometimes they just have a delusional perception of situations. I'll give you an example. They may look out the window every morning to look at the cute little kitten that visits every day. They might even hear it meowing. There's nothing inherently dangerous about that. Except, the kitten doesn't actually exist. There's no shadow, reflection, shrub or whatever to be misinterpreted. It's just not there. They may not even question or mention their observation because, in their mind, it's just a kitten outside the window. It's not like a dream. They believe it's really there. They have trouble discerning what is real and what is not.
This is simply an anecdotal observation of my own experience. Beyond that, I really know very little about the subject. Be as understanding and supportive as you can and try to gently steer them away from dangerous behaviors. Don't be insistent that you're right and they're wrong. That only frustrates the situation.
edit: This is not to be confused with pareidolia (seeing clouds that look like faces, etc.), which is a perfectly normal occurrence.
Schizophrenia isn't diagnosed on a hunch. To assert such an opinion as fact, is not only intellectually irresponsible and dishonest, it is as "spiritually" stupid as asserting the imaginative claim that cocks crowed at different times of the day in "Bible times."
On 4/3/2023 at 11:54 AM, waysider said:
I had a close childhood friend who was diagnosed in his teens. He was in and out of treatment facilities and prescribed several medications. This was over 50 years ago. A lot has changed. Long story short, he became suicidal and ended his life just shy of his 21st birthday, just as it seemed like he was making progress with treatment.. I had the misfortune of being the one to discover his body. He was a great guy. You couldn't ask for a better friend.
Oh, man. This is tough. I can relate. I know what it's like to lose a lifelong best friend at that age, but I don't know what it's like to discover his body. Damn.
I also know what it's like to lose a lifelong, mentally ill best friend to suicide. He was bipolar and had stopped taking the medication that was working. Came to after months of mania, looked up from the bottom of the deep crevasse he had dug for himself, and in bewildering despair, he ended it.
Nothing is quite as jarring as losing a friend to suicide. I know of nothing that will ring one's bell in quite the same way as hearing this news.
On 4/3/2023 at 11:54 AM, waysider said:
It's not at all like you see in movies and it's not always scary or dangerous. They can sometimes see things, hear things, smell things that aren't really there or remember having a conversation that never took place. But, that's not always the case. Sometimes they just have a delusional perception of situations. I'll give you an example. They may look out the window every morning to look at the cute little kitten that visits every day. They might even hear it meowing. There's nothing inherently dangerous about that. Except, the kitten doesn't actually exist. There's no shadow, reflection, shrub or whatever to be misinterpreted. It's just not there. They may not even question or mention their observation because, in their mind, it's just a kitten outside the window. It's not like a dream. They believe it's really there. They have trouble discerning what is real and what is not.
This is simply an anecdotal observation of my own experience. Beyond that, I really know very little about the subject. Be as understanding and supportive as you can and try to gently steer them away from dangerous behaviors. Don't be insistent that you're right and they're wrong. That only frustrates the situation.
edit: This is not to be confused with pareidolia (seeing clouds that look like faces, etc.), which is a perfectly normal occurrence.
I've known a few schizophrenics, but I wouldn't call any of them friends. None were scary. None were dangerous. All were rather innocent, childlike. Delusional. Even silly, if you don't know what's going on. The ones I've known were very sweet.
I have learned a full one percent of the population is afflicted with this disease. I also learned that there is very little known about schizophrenia, and that there is no chemical test for it; only the hunch of a psychiatrist can be obtained as a diagnosis.
Doctors rely on much more than a hunch when diagnosing schizophrenia. Although there is no test that can be performed in a laboratory to determine its existence, there are well defined symptoms that define the disease, as set forth in this article.
What you did not understand in my hunch statement is that unlike many other medical conditions, there is no objective chemical test for schizophrenia. Or at least, none at the time of the data I found.
It should be diagnosed by a professional observing body language, and spoken responses, history of events, family history, etc. But if a second opinion is sought, a contradictory diagnosis might be given. This doesn't usually happen if there were a chemical test to aid the diagnosis. That is why the word "hunch" was very appropriate, in comparison to a chemical test.
I've known a few schizophrenics, but I wouldn't call any of them friends. None were scary. None were dangerous. All were rather innocent, childlike. Delusional. Even silly, if you don't know what's going on. The ones I've known were very sweet.
Did the odd behavior come and go? For my friend many months could pass and I'd see no signs, then then one or two would pop up for a day or two, and then everything would be fine for another long time.
Doctors rely on much more than a hunch when diagnosing schizophrenia. Although there is no test that can be performed in a laboratory to determine its existence, there are well defined symptoms that define the disease, as set forth in this article.
A dear old friend of mine has been going through multiple medical issues that are pretty extreme. For almost ten years I have thought that schizophrenia was possibly one of them. Though I've spent a lot of time studying the brain, schizophrenia was never included, so I am very ignorant here. In the meantime I have learned very little in how to deal with my friend and his family.
Sounds like you are the one diagnosing your friend on your own hunch.
Find out for yourself about the MMPI-2 test. It’s about as objective as it gets for personality disorders and mental illness.
Chemical tests have their own limits. False positives suck.
Did the odd behavior come and go? For my friend many months could pass and I'd see no signs, then then one or two would pop up for a day or two, and then everything would be fine for another long time.
I think this is called resolution or remission of symptoms, I think. I think a significant portion of schizophrenics experience this. I think.
You should do your own research. Find out for yourself. Don’t seek to beleeve, seek to find out, to understand, to know.
What you did not understand in my hunch statement is that unlike many other medical conditions, there is no objective chemical test for schizophrenia. Or at least, none at the time of the data I found.
It should be diagnosed by a professional observing body language, and spoken responses, history of events, family history, etc. But if a second opinion is sought, a contradictory diagnosis might be given. This doesn't usually happen if there were a chemical test to aid the diagnosis. That is why the word "hunch" was very appropriate, in comparison to a chemical test.
What YOU did NOT do is qualify your incomplete attempt to effectively communicate your point until after someone called you on it.
Sounds like you are the one diagnosing your friend on your own hunch.
Find out for yourself about the MMPI-2 test. It’s about as objective as it gets for personality disorders and mental illness.
Chemical tests have their own limits. False positives suck.
Yes, you got that right. I'm not a professional so my hunch is much hunchier that a professional's. I'm just thinking that IF my amateur hunch plays out as right in the coming years, I want to be prepared to help the family, and not accidentally antagonize them. Maybe they got a professional involved by now. I am sort of cut off from most news about all this now, though, since his other medical conditions have worsened.
I will look into the MMPI-2 test, so thanks for that. I had heard of that some.
Am I the only one, or did anyone else get the impression Mike's friend had already been diagnosed? I feel now like the opening post was a bit misleading. Was that done intentionally for some reason?
Am I the only one, or did anyone else get the impression Mike's friend had already been diagnosed? I feel now like the opening post was a bit misleading. Was that done intentionally for some reason?
You’re not the only one. His first paragraph suggests one thing, but, then, then, THEN… the 2nd paragraph says something else.
I don’t think the lack of clarity is intentional, that’s just his style. Like the schizophrenic, he just can’t help it.
Am I the only one, or did anyone else get the impression Mike's friend had already been diagnosed? I feel now like the opening post was a bit misleading. Was that done intentionally for some reason?
I went back and re-read my opening post. If you do the same you will see my emphasis is on how do I deal with the family IF this is what I suspect it is.
I also noticed that I did not include one of my biggest reason's for suspecting his condition is schizophrenia, because it is a little bit involved. It's the nicotine connection that I am talking about. My friend was a heavy life long smoker. Have any of you heard in the last 10 years the news about nicotine and this disease? For decades health care workers has suspected this connection.
What they noticed was that in a KNOWN population of professionally diagnosed schizophrenia patients (like in a mental hospital) the percent who are heavy smokers is significantly higher than percent heavy smokers in the general population.
STOP!
This does NOT mean that if a person is a heavy smoker they are likely to have schizophrenia.
This does NOT mean that if a person is a heavy smoker they are likely to have schizophrenia.
Please digest that. The percent differences are not that great to make such a leap in statistics.
This was just a hunch that mental health workers had and it was labeled anecdotal for decades. THEN came the Chemists in Neuroscience and ten years ago they finally determined that nicotine is nearly chemically equivalent to the best schizophrenia meds. It acts similarly on the same sites in the brain. You can now Google this connection, as the chemistry has been super verified since I first heard it 10 years ago. Lots of schizophrenia victims find that nicotine helps them think better, and they became life long heavy smokers for it. It's the old self medicating thing.
After I heard all this my suspicions increased that he had problems and I watched very closely. A few years later his doctor demanded that he cut his smoking in half. He got a little kookier in my unprofessional opinion. Then another couple years and he got some other disease and his doctor said it was cold turkey time, so he totally quit. Within 3 months he was pretty radically different. My observations ended soon after that. He is older than me and I expect to be trying my best to help his family at some point after he passes away.
So that is why I took the time to look into this disease some, and ask here how the family of such victims handle it.
Am I the only one, or did anyone else get the impression Mike's friend had already been diagnosed? I feel now like the opening post was a bit misleading. Was that done intentionally for some reason?
Here is where you suspicions took you down the wrong road.
I wrote:
"What I do mean is I am seeking information on how friends and family deal with a loved one who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia by a professional."
The professional diagnosis mentioned in that sentence refers to anyone HERE who had friends or family with the disease, and not to my friend having a professional diagnosis.
Nicotine is a nootropic. I take it in a sublingual form myself. It very slightly helps with cognition. And if one is addicted, as I am, it soothes the discomfort of withdrawal.
It helps schizophrenics to FEEL better, though I don't know if it is actually effectual in alleviating symptoms. But they sure do love it. The first schizophrenic I ever encountered would pull out the filter of his Newport 100s with his teeth, and then, then, THEN smoke the entire cigarette, filter and all, in under a minute. Then, then, THEN... he'd light another, then another...
He told me it made him feel soooo good. He couldn't get enough. Every schizophrenic I've ever known was a chain smoker.
No one ever suspected cigarette smoking to be a cause of schizophrenia.
No one ever suspected cigarette smoking to be a cause of schizophrenia.
True.
Just the opposite, it mitigates it.
AND more importantly: heavy smoking is not EVIDENCE of schizophrenia.
Thanks again. You and waysider are the first people I have discussed this with who had first hand knowledge. I've only been reading about this a little.
This does NOT mean that if a person is a heavy smoker they are likely to have schizophrenia.
This does NOT mean that if a person is a heavy smoker they are likely to have schizophrenia.
What I do mean is I am seeking information on how friends and family deal with a loved one who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia by a professional.
....
I don't think his family can handle me asking them about this. I already know for sure that they want strict privacy for even his medical conditions, and that would be even more for his mental condition. I guess I am wondering how families deal with schizophrenia, so that after he falls asleep, I can most effectively comfort them.
You appear to be asking two different questions. The first is how people deal with the person so diagnosed. The second, if I understand you correctly, is how to talk to the families. Two different things, but not necessarily two different answers.
The answer, really, is LOVINGLY. Kindly, gently, respecting where individuals "are" presently. If your friend is in a schizo phase, deal kindly. If the family are anxious, concerned, tearing their hair out, deal kindly. If you can't say anything, just be present, available, and quietly helpful. And silent.
You appear to be asking two different questions. The first is how people deal with the person so diagnosed. The second, if I understand you correctly, is how to talk to the families. Two different things, but not necessarily two different answers.
The answer, really, is LOVINGLY. Kindly, gently, respecting where individuals "are" presently. If your friend is in a schizo phase, deal kindly. If the family are anxious, concerned, tearing their hair out, deal kindly. If you can't say anything, just be present, available, and quietly helpful. And silent.
Hi Twinky. I see the two questions you mentioned as pretty merged, and both angles are in my mind.
I agree, silence with alert love is my best strategy so far.
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waysider
I had a close childhood friend who was diagnosed in his teens. He was in and out of treatment facilities and prescribed several medications. This was over 50 years ago. A lot has changed. Long story short, he became suicidal and ended his life just shy of his 21st birthday, just as it seemed like he was making progress with treatment.. I had the misfortune of being the one to discover his body. He was a great guy. You couldn't ask for a better friend.
It's not at all like you see in movies and it's not always scary or dangerous. They can sometimes see things, hear things, smell things that aren't really there or remember having a conversation that never took place. But, that's not always the case. Sometimes they just have a delusional perception of situations. I'll give you an example. They may look out the window every morning to look at the cute little kitten that visits every day. They might even hear it meowing. There's nothing inherently dangerous about that. Except, the kitten doesn't actually exist. There's no shadow, reflection, shrub or whatever to be misinterpreted. It's just not there. They may not even question or mention their observation because, in their mind, it's just a kitten outside the window. It's not like a dream. They believe it's really there. They have trouble discerning what is real and what is not.
This is simply an anecdotal observation of my own experience. Beyond that, I really know very little about the subject. Be as understanding and supportive as you can and try to gently steer them away from dangerous behaviors. Don't be insistent that you're right and they're wrong. That only frustrates the situation.
edit: This is not to be confused with pareidolia (seeing clouds that look like faces, etc.), which is a perfectly normal occurrence.
Edited by waysideradd content
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Nathan_Jr
Schizophrenia isn't diagnosed on a hunch. To assert such an opinion as fact, is not only intellectually irresponsible and dishonest, it is as "spiritually" stupid as asserting the imaginative claim that cocks crowed at different times of the day in "Bible times."
Oh, man. This is tough. I can relate. I know what it's like to lose a lifelong best friend at that age, but I don't know what it's like to discover his body. Damn.
I also know what it's like to lose a lifelong, mentally ill best friend to suicide. He was bipolar and had stopped taking the medication that was working. Came to after months of mania, looked up from the bottom of the deep crevasse he had dug for himself, and in bewildering despair, he ended it.
Nothing is quite as jarring as losing a friend to suicide. I know of nothing that will ring one's bell in quite the same way as hearing this news.
I've known a few schizophrenics, but I wouldn't call any of them friends. None were scary. None were dangerous. All were rather innocent, childlike. Delusional. Even silly, if you don't know what's going on. The ones I've known were very sweet.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Stayed Too Long
Doctors rely on much more than a hunch when diagnosing schizophrenia. Although there is no test that can be performed in a laboratory to determine its existence, there are well defined symptoms that define the disease, as set forth in this article.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/how-is-schizophrenia-diagnosed
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Nathan_Jr
And the MMPI tests. 567 yes/no/true/false questions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Multiphasic_Personality_Inventory
If I were a betting man, I'd say the psychiatric community today has more more effective tools in its bag than a jar of cookies.
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Mike
What you did not understand in my hunch statement is that unlike many other medical conditions, there is no objective chemical test for schizophrenia. Or at least, none at the time of the data I found.
It should be diagnosed by a professional observing body language, and spoken responses, history of events, family history, etc. But if a second opinion is sought, a contradictory diagnosis might be given. This doesn't usually happen if there were a chemical test to aid the diagnosis. That is why the word "hunch" was very appropriate, in comparison to a chemical test.
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Mike
Did the odd behavior come and go? For my friend many months could pass and I'd see no signs, then then one or two would pop up for a day or two, and then everything would be fine for another long time.
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Mike
Thank you. That is very helpful.
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Nathan_Jr
Sounds like you are the one diagnosing your friend on your own hunch.
Find out for yourself about the MMPI-2 test. It’s about as objective as it gets for personality disorders and mental illness.
Chemical tests have their own limits. False positives suck.
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Nathan_Jr
I think this is called resolution or remission of symptoms, I think. I think a significant portion of schizophrenics experience this. I think.
You should do your own research. Find out for yourself. Don’t seek to beleeve, seek to find out, to understand, to know.
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Rocky
What YOU did NOT do is qualify your incomplete attempt to effectively communicate your point until after someone called you on it.
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Mike
Yes, you got that right. I'm not a professional so my hunch is much hunchier that a professional's. I'm just thinking that IF my amateur hunch plays out as right in the coming years, I want to be prepared to help the family, and not accidentally antagonize them. Maybe they got a professional involved by now. I am sort of cut off from most news about all this now, though, since his other medical conditions have worsened.
I will look into the MMPI-2 test, so thanks for that. I had heard of that some.
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waysider
Am I the only one, or did anyone else get the impression Mike's friend had already been diagnosed? I feel now like the opening post was a bit misleading. Was that done intentionally for some reason?
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Nathan_Jr
You’re not the only one. His first paragraph suggests one thing, but, then, then, THEN… the 2nd paragraph says something else.
I don’t think the lack of clarity is intentional, that’s just his style. Like the schizophrenic, he just can’t help it.
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Mike
LoL You folks are WAY too suspicious.
I hope for your own sakes that you aren't like that in real life.
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Mike
I went back and re-read my opening post. If you do the same you will see my emphasis is on how do I deal with the family IF this is what I suspect it is.
I also noticed that I did not include one of my biggest reason's for suspecting his condition is schizophrenia, because it is a little bit involved. It's the nicotine connection that I am talking about. My friend was a heavy life long smoker. Have any of you heard in the last 10 years the news about nicotine and this disease? For decades health care workers has suspected this connection.
What they noticed was that in a KNOWN population of professionally diagnosed schizophrenia patients (like in a mental hospital) the percent who are heavy smokers is significantly higher than percent heavy smokers in the general population.
STOP!
This does NOT mean that if a person is a heavy smoker they are likely to have schizophrenia.
This does NOT mean that if a person is a heavy smoker they are likely to have schizophrenia.
Please digest that. The percent differences are not that great to make such a leap in statistics.
This was just a hunch that mental health workers had and it was labeled anecdotal for decades. THEN came the Chemists in Neuroscience and ten years ago they finally determined that nicotine is nearly chemically equivalent to the best schizophrenia meds. It acts similarly on the same sites in the brain. You can now Google this connection, as the chemistry has been super verified since I first heard it 10 years ago. Lots of schizophrenia victims find that nicotine helps them think better, and they became life long heavy smokers for it. It's the old self medicating thing.
After I heard all this my suspicions increased that he had problems and I watched very closely. A few years later his doctor demanded that he cut his smoking in half. He got a little kookier in my unprofessional opinion. Then another couple years and he got some other disease and his doctor said it was cold turkey time, so he totally quit. Within 3 months he was pretty radically different. My observations ended soon after that. He is older than me and I expect to be trying my best to help his family at some point after he passes away.
So that is why I took the time to look into this disease some, and ask here how the family of such victims handle it.
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Mike
Here is where you suspicions took you down the wrong road.
I wrote:
"What I do mean is I am seeking information on how friends and family deal with a loved one who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia by a professional."
The professional diagnosis mentioned in that sentence refers to anyone HERE who had friends or family with the disease, and not to my friend having a professional diagnosis.
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Nathan_Jr
No one here is suspicious. Literally, no one.
Nicotine is a nootropic. I take it in a sublingual form myself. It very slightly helps with cognition. And if one is addicted, as I am, it soothes the discomfort of withdrawal.
It helps schizophrenics to FEEL better, though I don't know if it is actually effectual in alleviating symptoms. But they sure do love it. The first schizophrenic I ever encountered would pull out the filter of his Newport 100s with his teeth, and then, then, THEN smoke the entire cigarette, filter and all, in under a minute. Then, then, THEN... he'd light another, then another...
He told me it made him feel soooo good. He couldn't get enough. Every schizophrenic I've ever known was a chain smoker.
No one ever suspected cigarette smoking to be a cause of schizophrenia.
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Mike
True.
Just the opposite, it mitigates it.
AND more importantly: heavy smoking is not EVIDENCE of schizophrenia.
Edited by MikeThanks again. You and waysider are the first people I have discussed this with who had first hand knowledge. I've only been reading about this a little.
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Nathan_Jr
STOP!
No one ever asserted such a claim. No one. Ever.
Read more. It's YOUR friend.
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Mike
My statement there was a preventive measure, here.
Many people are prone to make that mistake that I warned against.
I have seen people misread that way, the statistics I mentioned.
Not here, though.
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Twinky
You appear to be asking two different questions. The first is how people deal with the person so diagnosed. The second, if I understand you correctly, is how to talk to the families. Two different things, but not necessarily two different answers.
The answer, really, is LOVINGLY. Kindly, gently, respecting where individuals "are" presently. If your friend is in a schizo phase, deal kindly. If the family are anxious, concerned, tearing their hair out, deal kindly. If you can't say anything, just be present, available, and quietly helpful. And silent.
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waysider
Uh huh.
And, I hope, for your own sake, that you learn to be less ambiguous in real life.
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Mike
Hi Twinky. I see the two questions you mentioned as pretty merged, and both angles are in my mind.
I agree, silence with alert love is my best strategy so far.
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Nathan_Jr
Here ya go, Mike. This is what it looks like. Does this confirm your hunch?
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