thank you kind friends. i wasn't trying to derail and/or get anyone feeling sorry for me. i really wanted to say god is good to me.
i think i'm going to be okay. but i do love to be prayed or thought for ;)
jimmy doop helped me a lot -- mostly because he saw my faults and i saw his -- and we loved each other and saw a lot of things about god, christ, etc. when he died, i lost a friend
that is something very important to me
i really don't get hung up with churches and "the way ministry" anymore. i do love to talk to sunesis about life because she is so amazingly beautifully out there mwah
"Beautifully out there" - awesome, I love it Excie. You have a wonderful way of describing things :)
As I said somewhere in the early part of this thread. I had been researching - or learning about the "Jesus Movement" and realized, hey, these things don't happen too often.
I had always wished I could talk to one of God's men who lived earlier who led the great revivals. But then I thought, hey, we have living leaders here, let's talk to them. So, I called Jim because he had known Lonnie Frisbee - the kid who won so many thousands of young people to Christ in California - and, who, of course, was latched onto by older men to get their ministries going (Martin, Wise). But, Frisbee was the catalyst. Doop was also one of those men in the early days of the movement. I did not know him but I wanted to know about the men in that movement, what it was like - I wanted a historical account. Talking with him was profound, that's the only way to put it. We talked for hours. I was blessed enough to talk to him twice and have always been thankful I got to talk with him before he died. What a heart and love for God he had - still.
If you are members of netflix, they have a documentary that was made on Lonnie and the movement. Steve Heefner is interviewed with his wife, and Doop is in there a bit. I suggest you rent it if you are interested in knowing more. Just searh for "Lonnie Frisbee."
I got involved in TWI on Long Island in the mid 70's. I always thought there was something special about NY Believers and now I see it was because of the foundation Jim gave.
I got involved in TWI on Long Island in the mid 70's. I always thought there was something special about NY Believers and now I see it was because of the foundation Jim gave.
Yes, well, it was more directly Steve Heefner in NY, & in LI, Steve Perez. But they, & then we, were all of the same ilk. It was something Jesus was doing. There was no comparison or competition ANYWHERE.
The first time I heard Jim Doop's name, it was mentioned to me by Steve Perez. He said that Jim Doop was involved in CA like Heefner was in NY. He said he believed Doop was a prophet. He said Doop had said that we needed to witness to the greatness of the Word without any fear or holding back at all. Doop had said that, if we didn't, soon, we wouldn't be able to.
That was good enough for me. I had promised (myself) that I would do whatever Steve said for two months - not because he demanded it, or presented any kind of authority structure that I was supposed to follow to be under the protective hand of God - or anything like that. He never did that. Just because he had told me about the real presence of God & Jesus Christ in this thing. He told me amazing truths from the Word, things God promised, things we could count on. I didn't know, so I told myself i would do whatever he said. If he was right, I would love him without reservation for the rest of my life. If he was wrong, I would kill him. Yeah, I was a different sort of guy in those days - SOMEWHAT. I just figured no one had the right to promise the things he was, things that, by their very nature, required an unqualified commitment of heart and life, be lying, and live. It was a pretty thorough street education.
So, that was enough for me, & our tight little band on LI we witnessed that way. And the word exploded with signs, miracles, and wonders following I mean following right on our heals immediately.
So, if it wasnt for Doop, if it wasnt for Heefner, if it wasnt for Perez, if it wasnt for me :) . If it wasnt for Jesus.
But it was.
And it is.
If not you, who?
If not now, when?
Really, I believe that God is up to something again.
If so, I hope it is far more encompassing.. than some little movement in California, or New York..
Well, it went to CA, NY, KS, South America, Europe, Africa. They were all genuine until coopted by VPW. And God is still working in many of the fruit thereof.
But how far will it go? Until the Body is complete. This is bigger than those revivals. It is as big as God.
But I still think he is up to something extraordinary in our day - as his manner is.
It's gonna be scattered this time Tom, but it'll come from everywhere and no particular place and you know it.
It's gonna be scattered this time Tom, but it'll come from everywhere and no particular place and you know it.
And it won't be all sweetness and light, I know, baby. Buckle up. But it will still be a ride filled with wonder. FILLED with wonderful things happening among God's people!! See you here and there, sweetheart.
Yes, us NYers were raised under Steve Heefner's ministry. But, many people don't know that Steve and Jim Doop were best friends growing up in California - from little boys in childhood through their times with TWI. I always found it interesting that these two grew up together and each had a wonderful ministry. Jim on the west coast, Steve on the east.
They both then left TWI after realizing they had been used by VP and I believe both went back to California. Later, Jim went back to TWI for a bit and this caused a rift between him and Steve. That is the only time I ever saw Jim. He was traveling with VP and was at a corps meeting. We were in a hotel - and I totally forget the event. But I remember looking at him thinking, so that's who he is. I did not talk to him though.
They both then left TWI after realizing they had been used by VP and I believe both went back to California.
As I recall, they were both outsted from their leadership positions when I was in rez my frist year in the Way Corps 1971-72. Those events, I believe, are reported in Karl Kahler's book, The Cult That Snapped. My former husband was present when Heefner was kicked out in Rye, NY. when VP was there to teach an Adv. class. Either just before or aftewards in Calif. at a meeting that VP taught, D*l D&ncan helped orchestrate kicking out Doop, as D*l tells it in that book.
I always wondered why Doop returned later in around 1976. Why return to the abuser? Anyway, they were good folks and kind.
They both then left TWI after realizing they had been used by VP and I believe both went back to California.
As I recall, they were both outsted from their leadership positions when I was in rez my frist year in the Way Corps 1971-72. Those events, I believe, are reported in Karl Kahler's book, The Cult That Snapped. My former husband was present when Heefner was kicked out in Rye, NY. when VP was there to teach an Adv. class. Either just before or aftewards in Calif. at a meeting that VP taught, D*l D&ncan helped orchestrate kicking out Doop, as D*l tells it in that book.
I always wondered why Doop returned later in around 1976. Why return to the abuser? Anyway, they were good folks and kind.
Left or kicked out - I guess that's somewhat a matter of terminology and perception. I thought there was still a Way East and a Way West at the time of the separation between Doop & Heefner, and The Way, but maybe VP incorporated The Way 1st & then kicked them out. I didn't think so. I wondered why Steve and Jim didn't just tell VP to kiss off at the time. There was no twi, no authoritarian hierarchical power structure, no Way Tree (VP had gotten the "revelation" as he called it, he had taught it, but it wasn't in place in NY or CA at the time), no centralized abundant sharing. Even if VP had done something legal turning the Way into a corporation (as I said, I think that came later - very soon later), it wouldn't have mattered. There was no question in anyone's mind about loyalty to VP, the man of God - in the WC, no doubt, but not on the field. Had Steve and Jim just kept up what they were doing, everyone would have just kept up what they were doing right along with them. I just don't get it.
I know one of the things VP was complaining about was that he had no way of keeping track of the money. That was his stated point of contention with Heefner; VP said Steve was doind yada, yada, yada with the money. That summer (what we were told was that Steve was taking a sabatical), Steve Perez (who God told to move to NY & told him the Word would move if he did - who started the ministry in LI) and Ed Goebel, his assistant, a couple of sharp fellows, put together a system whereby VP could track the ABS (the truly self-financing way we were doing it in NY at the time). They presented it to VP at summer school. I met them after they returned from meeting with VP. His response was that he was going to centralize the ABS.
He said that it was only a temporary measure. He said that he knew the way that we were doing it was the right way to do it, but that the believers were too immature to handle the money properly. He said that, after the believers matured, we would return to the grassroots way of handling ABS - the Word's way.
Wait a minute! Doesn't the Word say that if a man can't handle the mammon, that God is not going to entrust that man with the true spiritual riches? How then were all these signs, miracles, and wonders happening? How then did God entrust the believers with the hearts of so many that were turning on to the Word? Are they not the true spiritual riches that the same God said he would not entrust to people who could not handle the mammon? Pretty soon, the way we had been doing the ABS was no longer the RIGHT way; it was WRONG and DEVILISH, and you'd better not bring it up in a positive light, or YOU were spiritually compromised. BS.
I wonder if the leaders weren't too impressed with the value of PFAL as a tool to move the Word. We were in the midst of over a year of running back to back film classes in LI. We were so young; I think the leadership wondered what to do with people once you witnessed to them without the class & materials.
If i recollect correct, Lonnie Frisbee started the Vineyard.
He had his own "devils" to deal with, but his work has outlasted docvics.
Wikipedia: Lonnie became the charismatic spark igniting the rise of two worldwide denominations (Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard Movement).
I just finished the video. At the end, Chuck Smith, at a church service, over Lonnie's dead (March 1993) body, said a cutting remark about wondering what Lonnie's ministry could have been had he lived it fully. His ex-wife, in an interview, said she immediately rose up out of her seat, but two of her friends from the House, Steve Heefner and Jim Doop grabbed her and pulled her back down.
I thought Lonnie's life (and the movie) was a great testimony to God's willingness to work wonderfully in the life of one with childlike believing regardless of his own devils to deal with.
God doesn't change our old man; he gives us a new man. He gives us a new heart, the heart of Jesus Christ. We can no more change our selves out from any effort as of ourselves than we can get born again by our own power. We died with Jesus Christ; we are alive to God through him.
This thread reminded me (again) of how thankful I am for people who keep revealing the onion layers of deception that twi cloaked us with.
I agree that vpee's defusing the fire of so many precious ministries was a successful sneaky trick of the devil. And it was not only Heefner's and Doop's ministries that were powered-out, but also so many others as well -- for me it's Micha*l Mart*n and D*l Dunc*n I knew first hand -- along with many of the posters on this thread -- where could they have gone with the Lord if they had support and true Godly kindness instead of a web of deception covering them?
it was nice to read that Lonnie Frisbee's ministry continued with power and impact of Godliness in the world.
Thanks Pawtucket, gc and all of you who keep this place open. It's sincerely appreciated.
Tom, I was interested to get your take on the documentary. God truly worked through that young man. I found it interesting older men "used" him to reach out to kids and get their ministries going. Yes, what a nasty, self-righteous thing for Smith to say at his funeral - almost channeling the same spirit VP would use - it was said out of sheer jealousy.
These men used him, then threw him away when they got what they wanted from him. I sometimes wonder about God's "leaders."
Oh well, its a great film if anyone wants to see what us little hippies were like back then :)
Tom, I was interested to get your take on the documentary.
Ah, well now you know sister mine
almost channeling the same spirit VP would use - it was said out of sheer jealousy.
These men used him, then threw him away when they got what they wanted from him. I sometimes wonder about God's "leaders."
Sharp Shootin' there, Sunesis.
Oh well, its a great film if anyone wants to see what us little hippies were like back then :)
I and my LI buddies were sort of hybrids - 1/2 hippie & 1/2 hood. Greasers turned hippie, but you couldn't get the hood out of us. Still can't. That's why we kicked your butts in the Rye vs. LI football game - pshaw, bunch of preppies turned hippie.
Just kidding - loved ya then, love you even more now, day by day - crazy about you. Your heart is golden & linked forever with the likes of Lonnie, Steve, & Jim.
Has anyone ever posted here about the class Steve H. wanted to make about wisdom?
I think it was 1972. I was at Way East HQ on Forest Ave in Rye one day and Steve was in his office there, complaining loudly and bitterly that VPW had told him he couldn't do it. Steve saw it as a direct affront to the operation of his ministry. He had been studying Proverbs and other parts of scripture regarding the topic 'wisdom.'
This was around the time, it was rumored, that Steve took the money collected at Way East Sunday evenings and bet on "ponies" at the race track.
This was also around the time that a young (high school) Way East follower told me that he washed the light blue Mustang of a staff member there, while Way East staff smoked pot inside the car.
I was there frequently and don't doubt any of this. True or not, Steve, God bless him, was Way in over his head. He was not mature enough at that time, to be a responsible leader of so many people who trusted his ministry with such a huge part of their lives. Even as a young, glassy-eyed, naive, Waybot, I knew this man couldn't manifest the spirit (operate a ministry) out of a paper bag.
His successors there did no better... and one, at least, was cruel in a way Steve never was.
I noticed that TWI leaders that seemed the most mature or enlightened quit or were booted. Why, then did I hang around TWI for another 6 years or so? I guess I "needed the eggs."
Has anyone ever posted here about the class Steve H. wanted to make about wisdom?
I think it was 1972. I was at Way East HQ on Forest Ave in Rye one day and Steve was in his office there, complaining loudly and bitterly that VPW had told him he couldn't do it. Steve saw it as a direct affront to the operation of his ministry. He had been studying Proverbs and other parts of scripture regarding the topic 'wisdom.'
Yes, I was in on part of that class. It was eminently practical - no wonder VP had problems with it.
Later, in my "Way Career," during Body, Soul, & Spirit week, I decided to teach on wisdom, It was a hit, but now, listening to what you say about Steve's "seminar" on wisdom, I don't doubt that the roots came from Steve.
Steve, God bless him, was Way in over his head. He was not mature enough at that time, to be a responsible leader of so many people who trusted his ministry with such a huge part of their lives.
Apparently, God thought different.
Even as a young, glassy-eyed, naive, Waybot, I knew this man couldn't manifest the spirit (operate a ministry) out of a paper bag.
His successors there did no better... and one, at least, was cruel in a way Steve never was.
I noticed that TWI leaders that seemed the most mature or enlightened quit or were booted. Why, then did I hang around TWI for another 6 years or so? I guess I "needed the eggs."
Ha, "Waybot," maybe that's a clue to why you "knew" what you did about what God couldn't do in the hearts of men. What he was doing before your very eyes.
"I noticed that TWI leaders that seemed the most mature or enlightened quit or were booted."
And that showed you nothing?
"Why, then did I hang around TWI for another 6 years or so?"
Maybe you're real McCoy experience with the ilk of Steve Heefner was arguing with your Waybot identity - maybe you just wanted to see something real again, & were confused about what you saw. Long argument.
By design,
But Jesus Christ is still our peace.
Our only peace - as so many have been trying to say.
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Ham
If so, I hope it is far more encompassing.. than some little movement in California, or New York..
Tom
Wow, well here’s what I see, and what I think I’m seeing. As always, God has the big picture. I’m just following the tracks the best I can. Sunesis: “…does it seem to you, less people are getting b
geisha779
Feel better? Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "d
krys
love and prayers from me too, ex.
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potato
my thoughts are with you, too.
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excathedra
thank you kind friends. i wasn't trying to derail and/or get anyone feeling sorry for me. i really wanted to say god is good to me.
i think i'm going to be okay. but i do love to be prayed or thought for ;)
jimmy doop helped me a lot -- mostly because he saw my faults and i saw his -- and we loved each other and saw a lot of things about god, christ, etc. when he died, i lost a friend
that is something very important to me
i really don't get hung up with churches and "the way ministry" anymore. i do love to talk to sunesis about life because she is so amazingly beautifully out there mwah
the past hurts me and the way bores me
god/christ never does
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Sunesis
"Beautifully out there" - awesome, I love it Excie. You have a wonderful way of describing things :)
As I said somewhere in the early part of this thread. I had been researching - or learning about the "Jesus Movement" and realized, hey, these things don't happen too often.
I had always wished I could talk to one of God's men who lived earlier who led the great revivals. But then I thought, hey, we have living leaders here, let's talk to them. So, I called Jim because he had known Lonnie Frisbee - the kid who won so many thousands of young people to Christ in California - and, who, of course, was latched onto by older men to get their ministries going (Martin, Wise). But, Frisbee was the catalyst. Doop was also one of those men in the early days of the movement. I did not know him but I wanted to know about the men in that movement, what it was like - I wanted a historical account. Talking with him was profound, that's the only way to put it. We talked for hours. I was blessed enough to talk to him twice and have always been thankful I got to talk with him before he died. What a heart and love for God he had - still.
If you are members of netflix, they have a documentary that was made on Lonnie and the movement. Steve Heefner is interviewed with his wife, and Doop is in there a bit. I suggest you rent it if you are interested in knowing more. Just searh for "Lonnie Frisbee."
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excathedra
jim was so amazed people remembered him and cared
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TOMMYZ
I got involved in TWI on Long Island in the mid 70's. I always thought there was something special about NY Believers and now I see it was because of the foundation Jim gave.
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Tom
Yes, well, it was more directly Steve Heefner in NY, & in LI, Steve Perez. But they, & then we, were all of the same ilk. It was something Jesus was doing. There was no comparison or competition ANYWHERE.
The first time I heard Jim Doop's name, it was mentioned to me by Steve Perez. He said that Jim Doop was involved in CA like Heefner was in NY. He said he believed Doop was a prophet. He said Doop had said that we needed to witness to the greatness of the Word without any fear or holding back at all. Doop had said that, if we didn't, soon, we wouldn't be able to.
That was good enough for me. I had promised (myself) that I would do whatever Steve said for two months - not because he demanded it, or presented any kind of authority structure that I was supposed to follow to be under the protective hand of God - or anything like that. He never did that. Just because he had told me about the real presence of God & Jesus Christ in this thing. He told me amazing truths from the Word, things God promised, things we could count on. I didn't know, so I told myself i would do whatever he said. If he was right, I would love him without reservation for the rest of my life. If he was wrong, I would kill him. Yeah, I was a different sort of guy in those days - SOMEWHAT. I just figured no one had the right to promise the things he was, things that, by their very nature, required an unqualified commitment of heart and life, be lying, and live. It was a pretty thorough street education.
So, that was enough for me, & our tight little band on LI we witnessed that way. And the word exploded with signs, miracles, and wonders following I mean following right on our heals immediately.
So, if it wasnt for Doop, if it wasnt for Heefner, if it wasnt for Perez, if it wasnt for me :) . If it wasnt for Jesus.
But it was.
And it is.
If not you, who?
If not now, when?
Really, I believe that God is up to something again.
Who says so?
Let the redeemed of the Lord say...
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Ham
If so, I hope it is far more encompassing.. than some little movement in California, or New York..
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Gen-2
It's gonna be scattered this time Tom, but it'll come from everywhere and no particular place and you know it.
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Tom
Well, it went to CA, NY, KS, South America, Europe, Africa. They were all genuine until coopted by VPW. And God is still working in many of the fruit thereof.
But how far will it go? Until the Body is complete. This is bigger than those revivals. It is as big as God.
But I still think he is up to something extraordinary in our day - as his manner is.
Fine with me. The more the merrier.
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Tom
And it won't be all sweetness and light, I know, baby. Buckle up. But it will still be a ride filled with wonder. FILLED with wonderful things happening among God's people!! See you here and there, sweetheart.
Tom
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Sunesis
Yes, us NYers were raised under Steve Heefner's ministry. But, many people don't know that Steve and Jim Doop were best friends growing up in California - from little boys in childhood through their times with TWI. I always found it interesting that these two grew up together and each had a wonderful ministry. Jim on the west coast, Steve on the east.
They both then left TWI after realizing they had been used by VP and I believe both went back to California. Later, Jim went back to TWI for a bit and this caused a rift between him and Steve. That is the only time I ever saw Jim. He was traveling with VP and was at a corps meeting. We were in a hotel - and I totally forget the event. But I remember looking at him thinking, so that's who he is. I did not talk to him though.
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penworks
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Tom
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Tom
Me too.
BTW, I'm about to view a movie I received from Netflix, Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher.
Tom
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dmiller
If i recollect correct, Lonnie Frisbee started the Vineyard.
He had his own "devils" to deal with, but his work has outlasted docvics.
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Tom
Wikipedia: Lonnie became the charismatic spark igniting the rise of two worldwide denominations (Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard Movement).
I just finished the video. At the end, Chuck Smith, at a church service, over Lonnie's dead (March 1993) body, said a cutting remark about wondering what Lonnie's ministry could have been had he lived it fully. His ex-wife, in an interview, said she immediately rose up out of her seat, but two of her friends from the House, Steve Heefner and Jim Doop grabbed her and pulled her back down.
I thought Lonnie's life (and the movie) was a great testimony to God's willingness to work wonderfully in the life of one with childlike believing regardless of his own devils to deal with.
God doesn't change our old man; he gives us a new man. He gives us a new heart, the heart of Jesus Christ. We can no more change our selves out from any effort as of ourselves than we can get born again by our own power. We died with Jesus Christ; we are alive to God through him.
Reckon so.
Tom
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Kit Sober
This thread reminded me (again) of how thankful I am for people who keep revealing the onion layers of deception that twi cloaked us with.
I agree that vpee's defusing the fire of so many precious ministries was a successful sneaky trick of the devil. And it was not only Heefner's and Doop's ministries that were powered-out, but also so many others as well -- for me it's Micha*l Mart*n and D*l Dunc*n I knew first hand -- along with many of the posters on this thread -- where could they have gone with the Lord if they had support and true Godly kindness instead of a web of deception covering them?
it was nice to read that Lonnie Frisbee's ministry continued with power and impact of Godliness in the world.
Thanks Pawtucket, gc and all of you who keep this place open. It's sincerely appreciated.
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Sunesis
Tom, I was interested to get your take on the documentary. God truly worked through that young man. I found it interesting older men "used" him to reach out to kids and get their ministries going. Yes, what a nasty, self-righteous thing for Smith to say at his funeral - almost channeling the same spirit VP would use - it was said out of sheer jealousy.
These men used him, then threw him away when they got what they wanted from him. I sometimes wonder about God's "leaders."
Oh well, its a great film if anyone wants to see what us little hippies were like back then :)
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Tom
Sharp Shootin' there, Sunesis.
I and my LI buddies were sort of hybrids - 1/2 hippie & 1/2 hood. Greasers turned hippie, but you couldn't get the hood out of us. Still can't. That's why we kicked your butts in the Rye vs. LI football game - pshaw, bunch of preppies turned hippie.
Just kidding - loved ya then, love you even more now, day by day - crazy about you. Your heart is golden & linked forever with the likes of Lonnie, Steve, & Jim.
And Tom
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Pax
Has anyone ever posted here about the class Steve H. wanted to make about wisdom?
I think it was 1972. I was at Way East HQ on Forest Ave in Rye one day and Steve was in his office there, complaining loudly and bitterly that VPW had told him he couldn't do it. Steve saw it as a direct affront to the operation of his ministry. He had been studying Proverbs and other parts of scripture regarding the topic 'wisdom.'
This was around the time, it was rumored, that Steve took the money collected at Way East Sunday evenings and bet on "ponies" at the race track.
This was also around the time that a young (high school) Way East follower told me that he washed the light blue Mustang of a staff member there, while Way East staff smoked pot inside the car.
I was there frequently and don't doubt any of this. True or not, Steve, God bless him, was Way in over his head. He was not mature enough at that time, to be a responsible leader of so many people who trusted his ministry with such a huge part of their lives. Even as a young, glassy-eyed, naive, Waybot, I knew this man couldn't manifest the spirit (operate a ministry) out of a paper bag.
His successors there did no better... and one, at least, was cruel in a way Steve never was.
I noticed that TWI leaders that seemed the most mature or enlightened quit or were booted. Why, then did I hang around TWI for another 6 years or so? I guess I "needed the eggs."
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Tom
Yes, I was in on part of that class. It was eminently practical - no wonder VP had problems with it.
Later, in my "Way Career," during Body, Soul, & Spirit week, I decided to teach on wisdom, It was a hit, but now, listening to what you say about Steve's "seminar" on wisdom, I don't doubt that the roots came from Steve.
Apparently, God thought different.
Ha, "Waybot," maybe that's a clue to why you "knew" what you did about what God couldn't do in the hearts of men. What he was doing before your very eyes.
"I noticed that TWI leaders that seemed the most mature or enlightened quit or were booted."
And that showed you nothing?
"Why, then did I hang around TWI for another 6 years or so?"
Maybe you're real McCoy experience with the ilk of Steve Heefner was arguing with your Waybot identity - maybe you just wanted to see something real again, & were confused about what you saw. Long argument.
By design,
But Jesus Christ is still our peace.
Our only peace - as so many have been trying to say.
Tom
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