Jim Doop, The Way West and VPW

[Tom]

I wonder about the relationship between the Way East & West & HQ.

It was definitely before the way was incorporated. In those days - in my mind, at least - VP wasn't the big dog back then. Jesus was.

I remember the Way Corps light bearers came to NY (in '72 or '73?) to "set us straight" because we werent following the way tree properly. One of them went witnessing with my fellowship & took me aside & asked me if I was loyal to Dr. W. That question had no place in my mind. I told him that God had placed me in a position to feed all these people that were showing up for fellowship & that I was like an animal that eats light & feeds light to these people & that was all I cared about. If VP gave me light to feed them - fine; if Heefner gave me light to feed them - fine. It was the light that mattered. I told him that I hadn't confessed VP as Lord, but Jesus.

Personally, I believe Jesus had set up what I refered to as bands of ministering - the joints and bands refered to in Ephesians by which the whole body has nourishment ministered to it from the head, Jesus. It was an organic thing - a beauty to behold. I quickly had over 30 people in my fellowship & it was like I always knew where everyone was & how they were doing. I also knew whom I should go to for what - depending on my need.

THe Way Corps light bearers came in & just chopped all that up - replaced it with the lines of authority of the way tree.

That was in Long Island after Heefner left in Rye & Perez left in Long Island.

My understanding was that God told Heefner that if he went to NY to move the Word, there would be a great following of the Lord Jesus Christ that would rise up there.

Perez came to NY - Long Island - from California - for the same reason - God told him to go to NY & that the Word would move there if he did.

All that very effective God telling people to go places to move the Word was, of course, replaced by the WOW program. As I remember it, VP said that he instituted the WOW program because people weren't rising up to go where God was telling them to go. It was to help them get over their fear, & it was just supposed to be for 2 or 3 years until people matured in their believing to follow God's lead on their own. How the fambobula are people supposed to rise up to follow God's direct direction when VP just instituted that all such guidance was to flow down from HQ? Duh!! Obviously THAT never happened.

My memory of the centralization of the ABS is similar. VP complained that immature believers were abusing the ABS - & poor little VP had no way of knowing where the ABS was going. That summer, Perez & his assistant, Eddie Goebel, a couple of sharp fellas, put together a system whereby VP could track the ABS. At summer school - I guess in '73 - they presented the plan to VP. I remember them coming back after meeting with VP - they were bummed. VP had made up his mind that all the money was going to go directly to HQ. I don't know about him saying that it was OTHERS who moved him to do that against his wishes - I find THAT very hard to believe. He might have said that, but phffft - in those days VP was all about becoming the top dog. That was the direct effect of the WOW program, the "takeover" in Kansas, California, & NY, the centralization of the ABS, the incorporation of the way, the insitition of the way tree. All those moves replaced Jesus with VP, & changed the character of the Way West & East into something that looked similar, but was, in nature and character, very different. I do remember Perez & Goebel said that VP had said that the centralization of the ABS was only going to be for a brief period until people rose up to be maturely responsible enough to hadn't the money themselves. Again, like the WOW program, THAT never happened. How the heck were all these people doing such a great job with the souls of people when they couldn't handle the unrighteous mammon? Isn't that supposed to be impossible according to the bible? VP left them in charge of souls, but took the money. Just not right, biblically!

Again, I wonder about the legal relationship of the Ways East & West to HQ. It seemed to me that Doop, Heefner, & Perez just sort of handed the thing over to VP when we all should have told him just to kiss off, but maybe there was something other than VP being THE MAN working, something legal.

Still, wouldn't it have been royal if everyone said, "Fine, VP, you keep it," and all left & kept doing what we were doing anyway?

Why didn't we?

BTW, I wish I knew who all you 5th Corps people were. I was in that 1st year in the 1st Special Corps.

Tom

[waterbuffalo]

quote:

Leonard was not a trinitarian. But he certainly taught Jesus was God. His conception of the Godhead was unique as far as I know, but it was most similar to that of Oneness Pentecostals.

Thanks, TheEvan!

[alfakat]

Thomas -- it was a nimber of years later, after the dust had settled and most of the folks he was talking to were perhaps not aware of all the details. The "others" alluded to may have been Harry, Ermal, maybe a B*ll W*neg*rner, those type who had experience and influence with vic...maybe, maybe not. Who can sort out all vic's puffery from what really went down????

I concur with all of what you say -- the early stuff I saw, before I ever took the class was really impressive stuff. Good folks were doing stuff without check-lists and orders from the structure and waytrees and kork grads or Nuttin'!! wow, how could it be??? :D-->

[diazbro]

Having entered TWI not long after some of these turbulent events in early Way history I was always amazed at how effectively they silenced discussions relating to these matters. In keeping with the deceptive nature of TWI, discussions on the early days of TWI were always focused on VPW with no mention of Doop or Heefner. Only in after Twig discussions (and usually only after a few beers or some other things) did these individuals get mentioned in a respectful context.

Like any dictator, VPW wanted full credit for the organization and his suck-up yes men worked hard to keep information about these guys away from people especially from newcomers. And when they were mentioned they were typically discredited.

Most organizations go through any number of stages in their evolution and its frequently the case there are power struggles, changes in policy, and plans for growth. Yet most organizations don't try to hide all of these

historical details and make it seem like the company/organization fell out of the sky fully formed. VPW did. And he wanted full credit - always.

[excathedra]

quote:

...no mention of Doop or Heefner.

verrrry verrrry interrrrrrresting

i'd like to mention that these 2 went to kindergarten together. that touched me

[My3Cents]

quote:

Originally posted by Sunesis:

My3cents was an adorable cutie!

Takes one to know one, cutie pie!

Edited March 26, 2005 by My3Cents

[A la prochaine]

Thomas,

quote:

One of them went witnessing with my fellowship & took me aside & asked me if I was loyal to Dr. W.

Wow!

Same damned thing they pulled during the Fog Years 'Do you stand with LCM or with Geer'.

Sheeshhh.... History repeating itself!

[fortunateone]

Wow

I noticed notes in my bible today from a teaching Jim Doop did Easter in Mill Valley,

probably 1972.

Matt 26-28

Super moving when he touched on the various words in greek explaining how

Jesus was whipped and beaten prior to the crucificion.

Thank God he was raised from the dead.

I did Holy Communion for my kids and my neighbor.

At least I learned something from TWI.

[Belle]

I never heard of them till I got here. The most I ever heard about the early years of TWI was from Mrs. W's book and then a video from the 70's or early 80's on the bus trip we took to hq a couple of years ago.

[jimdoop]

I am still here. And I thank all of you for your very kind words. You have no idea how much they mean to me. I look forward to getting to know you better. As I have said I spent 5 years putting down my perpective of my years from 1966 to 1988. I believe the book will anwser a lot of questions and I don't white wash anything. I tell it like it was. I don't always name names to protect them, but the main chacters are all there. I believe it will be very healing to many and I have been told that its a fun read ect.. As I have always said The people I have loved the most in the whole world, are the saints. People who can laugh at themselves and a good joke. and if they can't? You know the rest.

Love to you in the Lord Christ Jesus and all Glory to His Name forever and ever.

Jimmy Doop

[J0nny Ling0]

Wow Jim, thanks brother. Never knew you. I got in The Way in 1975. I was witnessed to by one of the Rye New York believers though, one Ann Marie O'Reilly. I guess she was from Rochester originally, but I think she was part of the "groovy Christian" bunch. Sunesis probably knows that detail though..

I look fwd to your book. Is it finished? Or are you working on it still? Maybe I missed some info somewhere concerning your book...

Anyway, thank you for all that you do and have done as a brother in Christ! God bless you,

JL

[vickles]

I would love to read this book too, jim. How would I aquire it?

[Radar OReilly]

Jim,

This is a fascinating thread. Socks, Mark Sanguinetti, Kit, Jim and I were all there...

I still have the original WAY WEST red tshirt to prove it. I have held on to it...for sentimental reasons......does anyone hear a song coming on?

I am really glad to see you here to present your side of the story. WOW.......we were young and innocent back then.....weren't we???

Radar

[socks]

Got the T-Shirt too Radar! Geez o Peteski, forgot all about those! :)-->

[J0nny Ling0]

Wow you all, those must have been some fun and exciting days. Glad you had 'em...

Hi Socks. Did you all know John Nave? My wife was friends with him, and she tells a story about how he was camping in the Sierras and somehow got strawberry jam all over his sleeping bag and he woke up with a bear sitting on his chest and licking the jam off his beard and face. I stayed with John Nave, John Turner, and Nick Ritter(?) when I made my first pilgrimage to HQ when I was seventeen. John (Nave) taught me and my best friend who went with me, the fine art of smoking a pipe with a mixture of "mild Cavendish". He was very kind and very much like a big brother to us during that short ten days of spring break in '76. You should have seen us two goofy kids sitting at Adolphs smoking our new pipes...

[Belle]

Jim I look forward to reading your book. I didn't get involved till the early 90's and they never but never talked about "the early days" except to tell us how hard vee pee pee worked to get "the rightly divided word" to us.

[Hope R.]

I have a Way East T-Shirt somewhere around here...

Nice to see you Jim. Perhaps you can get a hold of Heefner and get the East Coast perspective. I got into TWI in 1971 - about 8 or 9 months before the time Steve and Sandi left Rye.

I was on Lawnguylan - so wasn't as close to the source as 3Cents - but remember being told that the Heefners were taking a "sabbatical" in order to spend more time with their family. I thought that was nice - little did I know what was really going on. Hell - I was 16 and loved Jesus - my glasses were very rose-colored back then, I see much clearer now.

Welcome to the Cafe, Jim. Glad you're here. I'd also like a copy of your book.

[oldiesman]

Jim Doop, since you're not hawking your book, may I please have a complimentary copy.

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

hi jim so great to here from you! i can't remember the last name of your right hand man and his wife marty ans sue? was it turner they were great!! do you knou what they are up to? God's best to you.

dennis arsenault

rumford me

[waterbuffalo]

Jim, my cousin, after all these years, has asked me about my time in twi and I was very happy to hear about your book. This will give me the proper background concerning the move of the Holy Spirit that existed at that time and how vp hooked up with certain, spirit filled Christians, to promote his class.

This is great! When do you plan to release it?

[Sunesis]

Johnny Lingo, as I was a little high school "groovy Christian of Rye" kid, I did not know Mr. Doop. But I knew Steve and Sandy Heefner - I loved them. Those two had a wonderful evangelistic ministry. They were open to the kids, we could go over to their house and hang when we weren't fellowshipping - there were no rules - to us young kids they were so cool and wise, like real biblical saints come to life. I will never forget them. Steve's teaching at my first fellowship at Tim Bishop's house opened my eyes.

I believe it was a true revival of God - hippies, dopers, kids and adults being reaching by God in a way our tumultuous society and the church could not at that time. I am glad I lived to see a "true" revival in my lifetime.

I saw Mr. Doop here and there in later years but never knew him. I am much looking forward to reading your book.

[socks]

Yes, Johnny. Knew John Nave well. A fine fellow indeed! He married Frannie C. of Alameda later, and my wife was good friends with John and her family too.

John Nave stories - love it! John really characterized kindness. We had a few escapades ourselves. He had a very personal way about him.

You and that Alameda group were the finest folks. Many many good times.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Gosh.....dmiller...thanks for bringing this thread back to our attention.

Some great testimonies from folks who were there in the early years. A reminder of the heart that people had...the way that it evolved...seeing how Veepee stepped in and grabbed the power and glory for himself.

I hope that some of the "innies" venture in here and read this stuff...this was how it started. Doop and Heefner were SO instrumental in the early years...great hearts, humble men, men of faith who worked hard for the Lord...and then came the great ego...VP farking Wierwille.

For anyone who really wants to know about twi...these years tell the story of how the cornfield preacher stepped in and proclaimed "I am the great one!"...grabbing the money and trashing the honest work that had begun.

[hiway29]

So when will we be able to buy Jim's book ?

I am so looking forward to reading it. I used to think I got in relatively early in '75, and it's been an education to realize that it was really over by then.

[Sunesis]

If you do a search on the net re: Jesus Movement or Jesus Freaks, you can find the history of a true revival among us young kids that was a true movement of God in the mid'60s through early '70s.

As time goes on, I believe it is us who have loved God since those days and our kids and grandkids who may be the last generation before the Lord returns.

The Jesus movement was a true revival, which has not been seen since in the U.S. Wise, Heefner, Dopp, Lonnie Frisbee, and a few others, were the ones God worked with to bring this about. It all started with a vision and revelation to Lonnie Frisbee, who won literally thousands to the Lord in California. He was 18, 19? I consider Jim Dopp to be not only a spiritual man, but a founder, and historical figure of this movement, along with Frisbee, Heefner and a handful of others. Jim Dopp is living history.

My take, from what I know is that these men, inspired of God, started a true revival.

VP reads about it and went to California for the sole reason of finding these men. He did not go for loving reasons. He plays the class for them, Frisbee and others leave after a few sessions and decide to keep doing what they were doing, the result is the Vineyard here and in Canada.

Dopp and Heefner liked the class, go to H.Q. and one does the Way West, the other the Way East. I was there - a "groovy Christian of Rye" in high school in the Way East in NY. I have never seen another revival like this in my lifetime. It truly was amazing.

VP promises them there will be little intereference in their ministries.

Then, VP sits back and waits.

He waits for these men to grow THEIR ministries.

Once it gets big enough, he fires them - publically. He humiliates, shames and demeans them, in front of the body of Christ, and the money is now sent to H.Q. VP now takes over.

My feeling is, VP hijacked these mens' ministries. VP was a wolf in sheep's clothing, - he waited until the evangelization these men and their ministries were doing for God resulted in thousands of people being won to Christ through them. VP waited until it was exploding then fired them, and took their ministries for himself. He was able to get two of the founders of a true revival of God to our baby-boom generation, away from the true movement and into his.

The men were young, they loved God and his Word, and were manipulated by VP. They woke up soon enough though.

Compare the fruit of those men who, in the meetings and class VP ran for them when he first visited, decided not to go with him and continue with their ministries. Result?

The Vineyard is still thriving and growing today, TWI is a dead ministry.

Regardless though, Dopp, Heefner, and others will have their rewards in heaven.