I agree with you completely. It is all just conjecture and educated(?)guessing. I dont know how anyone would know for sure unless God revealed it to them for some reason.
Rascal-
OK-truce. ((((((Rascal))))))
and I promise to shut up about "personal responsiblity". I've harped on that too much already.
chwester, I'm sorry. I've met people (and not just in the way) who have said that about other people and been dead serious.
Geez, just watch Pat Robertson sometime. Seems like he's privy to some special knowledge cause he seems to know all the people who have a "pact with the devil"
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
I do not think that the devil has the ability to create permanant seed within someone. Only God can do that.
Neither do I believe that there is such a thing as being "born of the wrong seed". It is is a doctrine pretty much unique to TWI and it's offshoots.
Biblically, Satan's "seed" are those that disobey God in a sinister/self- serving manner. - Like the Pharisees that Jesus confronted. (John 8:44)
The Bible says by metpahor that we are Abrahams's seed ( Romans 4:16). Yet Abraham did not create any kind of seed within us. Abraham is our "father" because we followed his example of faith. Jesus referred to Satan as these Pharisse's "father" because they followed his example of disobedience.
Satan being their "father", has nothing to do with being permanantly implanted with spiritual "devil seed".
This is just another one of TWI's errant doctrines.
Do you ever wonder why Martindale was so focused on seed boys? I am told treasury department agents focus all their attention on real money so they can spot the countefeit right off.
Why we were we inundated with knowing the adversary?
Could it be that loy boy and his ilk had more friends in the attic that just brain cells?y
Hey Goey, I'm inclined to agree with you. Another thing that hits me along these lines is that Lucifer/The Devil isn't actually the mirror image of God, as in the "opposite". God's God. Luci's a created angel of high rank with a bad attitude or something. They aren't equal. So it doesn't follow by any "logic" that ol' Luci would be utomatically able to replicate something like a "birth".
The older Dealing with the Adversary class taught that the "seed" birth thing boiled down to an impregantion that "held the mind" open. I pictured it at the time as sort of a permanent wedge. It was taught that it held the person open to the D.S.'s influence.
Al Poole - giving away my age, something a woman should never do!! However, I am glad I grew up when I did - I listened to good (natural) music, and got into twi1. Why do I think the music of the 60's and 70's is so good? Not just because I was young. I truly think it is because those people were talented. My mother thought so too (A WWII)Classic R&R is what I like - and folk rock too. JA47646 - Billy Joel born of the wrong seed? I heard back in the early 80's that a member of his band took the class. Also someone in Earth, Wind & Fire.
Nadia Comaneci - the Romanian gymnast who scored a perfect 10 in the summer olympics.
I remember sitting in a class that Gxxxxd Wxxxn was teaching and we were watching a tape of the competition. He distinctly said she was either seed or possessed because it was impossible to score a perfect 10 in anything.
If I'm not mistaken - every Secretary General of the UN has been either possessed by a "5 Star General" debbil spurt, or was a "seed boy" - according to TWI.
Yeah - Boutros Boutros Ghali and Dag Hammarskjold have me quivering in my shoes....
Hope R. color>size>face>
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>
I have a recurring dream where I'm running from a very malicious, evil presence.
I can hear the racing footsteps getting closer and closer...the icy breath...a morbid incomprehendable rush of syllables...evil emanating like a rope forming a noose around my neck...
...I keep slipping and falling...then it's too late...I look back for the last time as my mouth forms a blood curdling scream that will never be heard...
...the last thing I see is Boutros Boutros Ghali, Nadia Comaneci and Dag Hammarskjold...
quote:I remember sitting in a class that Gxxxxd Wxxxn was teaching and we were watching a tape of the competition. He distinctly said she was either seed or possessed because it was impossible to score a perfect 10 in anything.
Aw Heck!
I guess that means Bo Dereck was a "seed girl." - I suspected there was something wrong with her.
Oh my ... Seed O' de Serpent. Almost sounds like a cologne eh. Seed Boys, born of the Devil, Children of the devil, Rosemary's Baby.... whoops :)-->
People I was informed to be "wrong seed" are:
Mohammed Ali
The Pop up Pope
Barbara Striesand
Jimmy Page
Alexis Crowley
Sir Authur Conan Doyle
Hitler
Mussolini
Stalin
Marx
John Kennedy
Fidel Castro
Mao Tse Tung
Henry Ford
M. Ghandi
Ray Krock (McDonalds Founder)
Shirley McClaine
Mother Teresa
John Travolta
Ozzy Osborne
Marlon Brando
Frank Sinatra
Martin Luther King
Abraham Lincoln
Alice Cooper
Mick Jagger
Stevie Nicks
oh yeah & that exiled guy from Tibet... Dolly Lama
Well, that's about all I can think of now & please forgive my sphelling.
Glad ya did not ask who TWI said/says was/is possessed or insane. Last I heard there are approx 5000 participants in TWI. On Oct. 12, 1999, the United Nations announced that global population had reached the 6 billion mark. So let's see: 6,000,000,000 minus 5000 = 5,999,995,000 that are not of the true Household Of Gawd & outside the huddle of the "Present Truth". Now that would be quite a list eh. Does anyone remember , gist through the years: "Those who do not believe the Word are insane. We are the true Household of God, The Body of Christ. Grease Spots By Midnight. (& an all time favorite) God won't even spit in your direction..." etc ad nauseum?
Maybe there should be a list "Seed of The Serpents" to avoid.... hahahahahahahahahahhhhh
Goey: What you said about the devil can't create permanent seed etc.? I'm listening, but in Matt.12:31&32 it says 'not forgiven in this world or in that which is to come'. Granted it doesn't say anything about a wrong seed or a trap door being permanently wedged open, but it does seem to say it's possible to still be breathing and be able to do something that will prevent the possibility of ever getting saved. What say you? (parallel records in Mark 3:28&29 and Luke 12:10) I mean, if this is possible, wouldn't such a person have a unique potential to oppose God's people or would they just be screwed for eternity but just like everybody else other than that?
and, oh, yeah, the head of the Ford Modeling Agency, whoever she is. That grad who used to model Guess jeans had an interview with the head of Ford. Afterwards, Craig had her share with TWC what happened at the interview, This chick told TWC that she "confronted" this woman, then who showed her "true colors" as "seed". I wonder if she spit pea soup?
johniam, there's nothing in the Matthew record regarding the "unforgivable sin" that ties it to other records that mention children of the devil or similar. In other words, to commit the unforgivable sin is not to become a child of the devil. There is zero biblical support for that idea.
Many mainstream commentaries make a simple & unambiguous case that the "unforgivable sin" of matthew is simply to reject Christ.
Okay, I can hear your objections to that.
There is nothing that indicates that one is ever "born of Satan's seed". That's an invention of Wierwille that doesn't enjoy biblical support. Satan has no such creative or reproductive power, being darkness & parasitic. Any place it refers to 'child of the devil', 'sons of disobedience', etc, it is metaphoric, even as you and I were both children of disobedience...we belonged to Satan. But that didn't make us his "spawn" and we remained, as all are, fully redeemable by the blood of Christ.
Christ's offer is to all, whosoever...including the Christ-rejecters. The rejecters who accept Christ aren't rejecters after all, are they?
Another angle to view Wierwille's strange doctrine is the horrendous fruit it bore. The suspicion & naming of people as "seed of the Devil", the focusing on the Deeeevil, ugh. All people, "believer" or "unbeliever" are precious in God's sight and loved by Him equally. Christ's sacrifice was & is effectual to save to the uttermost....
There is nothing that indicates that one is ever "born of Satan's seed". That's an invention of Wierwille that doesn't enjoy biblical support. Satan has no such creative or reproductive power, being darkness & parasitic. Any place it refers to 'child of the devil', 'sons of disobedience', etc, it is metaphoric,
Amen. I saw the seldom played PFAL segment "The Unforgivable Sin". Now I am so thankful that it was NOT included in the 12 session class because that teaching is so wrong!
Lucifer, Gabriel and Michael were God's archangels.
Lucifer cannot create seed any more than Gabriel or Michael.
Being "of" someone in the bible does not always indicate seed. I believe the Bible is figurative referring to certain people as "of the devil, the serpant, Belial, etc."
VPW was way off base on this topic, LCW was farther off...in left field. (Please excuse the baseball analogy.)
Evan: The idea that the "unforgivable sin" is simply to reject Christ doesn't make sense to me. It says no forgiveness in this world or that which is to come. There has to be something people can do before dying that would exempt them from salvation, otherwise why would it say neither in this world nor that which is to come? I agree that thinking about this topic too much genders a lot of evil thinking and all the other stuff we're not sposed to do per 1 Cor. 13.
johniam, rather than post what some popular commenataries say about this, I'll post the following link, already set for Matthew 12. You can then select the commentaries & study Bibles one at a time and read as you see fit. Just select one, then scroll down to the commentary on v31-32:
I'll just make a few remarks that reflect the consensus of what you'll read there:
(Besides I'm about to get busted for posting this here...I suppose we should sneak off to the hairy armpit of the forums, the Doctrinal section!)
The context is specifically the sin of the Pharisees, who hardened their hearts to Jesus and wilfully rejected the proofs of who he really was. They were so convincing themselves against Him as to harden themselves against ever repenting. SHOULD they never repent, they would then die unredeemed & unforgiven. That's it. It's good to know that Paul says in Timothy that we are not to be judges of such things...such judgement belongs only to the Lord. Clearly, Wierwille & Martindale were Pharisees in this regard.
From another commentary: That the Pharisees obstinately attributed Christ's charcter and works to the devil, works that could ONLY be wrought by God (which they knew full well) is evidence of such a hard heart and is the essence of blasphemy. Note that the unforgivable sin is explained in Mark 3:28&29 followed in v.30 by "BECAUSE they said, He hath an unclean spirit".
I don't feel qualified to address 'neither in this world or that which is to come'. The commentaries handle it a number of different ways...some dispensational (neither in this *age*, etc) some otherwise.
Hope that helps.
Wierwille's explanation may seem to make sense in a vacuum...taken solely on its own merits without regard to what the Bible says. But as soon as you bring in the scriptures it falls apart, becoming almost like Greek mythology in comparison. His explanation utterly divorces what Jesus said from its context.
Of course, some answers make more questions than they answer. Which is as it should be, I suppose.
To take a more simplistic stab at it, let me say that the reason there is no forgiveness is there is no repentance. Should an unrepentant repent, well, they're no longer unrepentant, are they? What i am trying to say is the "God is able to save to the uttermost", even those who are recalcitrant unrepentants...if & when they repent.
Mother Theresa? Yeah, that one gets me too. I don't believe it at all. Let's see, she lived a selfless life serving others. Yeah, that sounds devilish!
Guess she could have done it for self-recognition.
But remember the greatest was Ali... do ya remember an Advanced Class clip of the Cassuis Clay & Sonny Liston fight being shown in slow mo and the KO punch by CC totally missed Sonny, but Sonny went down KO'D anyway? After that, CC became the "Heavy Weight Champion of The World" and then changed his name to Mo Ali. And so the story goes... Mo sold out to Allah and began to promote Islam & God Blessed Howard Kosell.
Ya know WW, I think I was a little hasty with Mother T. I might just have to retract that statement and hold her in the "poZZeZo file." I do definetly remember her being disCUSSed as possessed. The truth is out there ya know.
Abe Lincoln I know for sure was labeled as Seed of the Serpent. I believe it was VP that was teaching this in context the Devil was trying to split this great country apart through the Cival War and Abe L. was the one to carry this out... and dig this... that Abe being SOS and all SOS die violent deaths, hence Boothe being possessed by a murder spirit assasinated AL. Now how is that for a spiritual political conspiracy theory? Whew, such insight into the devils back halls. Must have been all that snow at the gas pumps.
Yeah, that is what I said about those who dabbled in the occult, but was told make no mistake, they are SOS and operate in secrecy and so sometimes the "hardcore" seem harmless. Always an explaination for accusations from the witch hunters... eh.
Alexis Crowley was definetly on the dark side just from my own personal O.
Jimmy Page played in the occult and was a huge fan of Crowley in so much he purchased Crowley's home. It is rumoured that John Bonham's death is a direct result of Pagy making a pact with the Devil. Some one had to be the sacrifice. Sounds like one of them "went down to the crossroads" rocknroll images, hammer of the gods type of thing. Oh well, such are the rumours...
Speaking of rumours... Stevie Nicks is a witch! The song Rhiannon was used to show her obedience to the Adversary.
Rhiannon
Lyrics by Fleetwood Mac
Rhiannon rings like a bell thru the night
and wouldn't you love to love her?
she rules her life like a bird in flight
and who will be her lover?
all your life you've never seen
a woman , taken by the wind
would you stay if she promised you heaven?
will you ever win.........?
CHORUS: Rhiannon......
Rhiannon......
Rhiannon......
she is like a cat in the dark
and then she is the darkness
she rules her life like a fine skylark
and when the sky is starless
all your life you've never seen
a woman..taken by the wind...
would you stay if she promised you heaven?
will you ever win.....?
will you ever win.....?
CHORUS:
Rhiannon......
Rhiannon......
Rhiannon......
Dreams unwind
Love's a state of mind
Rhiannon Lyrics
Hmmm... Makes ya wonder eh?
Here's another couple I heard was SOS:
Houdini
David Copperfield
But that Elton Jon & Bernie Tarpin were Homo Po's
Ya know WW what interests, fascinates, intrigues me now about SOS & Po's?.... It's the stories, the drama of the dark side vs the light side, the continuing & developing of myths in this present age based upon ancient gods & godesses & Star Wars, & that there may just be other life on other planets and if they were to visit us it won't be a Close Encounters of the Third Kind or ET, but more like Independence Day.... oh well, that would be another thread.
But all in all, I think this SOS & PoZzeZzo's deal is along the lines the sun revolves around the earth and the earth is the centre of the universe.
and, oh, yeah, the head of the Ford Modeling Agency, whoever she is. That grad who used to model Guess jeans had an interview with the head of Ford. Afterwards, Craig had her share with TWC what happened at the interview, This chick told TWC that she "confronted" this woman, then who showed her "true colors" as "seed". I wonder if she spit pea soup?
Catcup
>>>>>>>>
Hey Catcup, I heard that sharing at a ROA . I know the Guess jeans Model. The impact I remember was the Model quoting a response from the head of FMA: "My God is bigger than your God."
Looking back, it seems to me an obvious ploy to promote TWI Devil Spirit doctrine by having a grad celebrity figure as a prop their pretenses of holiness thereby issuing an alert to the true household..."It's The Word! The Word ! The Word! & nothing but the WORD!!!!!!! Come out from among them.... blah blah blah
Catcup, I have not thought about that Model in quite a few some time...last time i heard was during the "fog".. said Model split from TWI & said... quote... "Craig has a spirit of slumber..."
& Craig is saying in ref to CG**r "He has herds of devil spirits stampeeding through his mind."
What a story eh Catcup!!!!!!!
And the beat goes on...
Rok On!!!!!!!
Where is that confounded bridge?
ZOSO
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on March 02, 2003 at 17:44.]
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
4
4
5
9
Popular Days
Feb 26
39
Feb 27
17
Mar 2
8
Mar 1
7
Top Posters In This Topic
TheEvan 4 posts
TheSongRemainsTheSame 4 posts
Larryg 5 posts
chwester 9 posts
Popular Days
Feb 26 2003
39 posts
Feb 27 2003
17 posts
Mar 2 2003
8 posts
Mar 1 2003
7 posts
chwester
Rottie-
I agree with you completely. It is all just conjecture and educated(?)guessing. I dont know how anyone would know for sure unless God revealed it to them for some reason.
Rascal-
OK-truce. ((((((Rascal))))))
and I promise to shut up about "personal responsiblity". I've harped on that too much already.
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
RottieGrrrl
chwester, I'm sorry. I've met people (and not just in the way) who have said that about other people and been dead serious.
Geez, just watch Pat Robertson sometime. Seems like he's privy to some special knowledge cause he seems to know all the people who have a "pact with the devil"
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
On a serious note.
I do not think that the devil has the ability to create permanant seed within someone. Only God can do that.
Neither do I believe that there is such a thing as being "born of the wrong seed". It is is a doctrine pretty much unique to TWI and it's offshoots.
Biblically, Satan's "seed" are those that disobey God in a sinister/self- serving manner. - Like the Pharisees that Jesus confronted. (John 8:44)
The Bible says by metpahor that we are Abrahams's seed ( Romans 4:16). Yet Abraham did not create any kind of seed within us. Abraham is our "father" because we followed his example of faith. Jesus referred to Satan as these Pharisse's "father" because they followed his example of disobedience.
Satan being their "father", has nothing to do with being permanantly implanted with spiritual "devil seed".
This is just another one of TWI's errant doctrines.
Goey
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
def59
Do you ever wonder why Martindale was so focused on seed boys? I am told treasury department agents focus all their attention on real money so they can spot the countefeit right off.
Why we were we inundated with knowing the adversary?
Could it be that loy boy and his ilk had more friends in the attic that just brain cells?y
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Yanagisawa
Can't remember if Mike Singletary was "seed" or just garden variety possessed...remember how wide his eyes were on the field?
Of course he's now a minister...isn't that just like the adversary?...take a seed boy and make him a preachin' ex-middle linebacker.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Hey Goey, I'm inclined to agree with you. Another thing that hits me along these lines is that Lucifer/The Devil isn't actually the mirror image of God, as in the "opposite". God's God. Luci's a created angel of high rank with a bad attitude or something. They aren't equal. So it doesn't follow by any "logic" that ol' Luci would be utomatically able to replicate something like a "birth".
The older Dealing with the Adversary class taught that the "seed" birth thing boiled down to an impregantion that "held the mind" open. I pictured it at the time as sort of a permanent wedge. It was taught that it held the person open to the D.S.'s influence.
I know why Ali won the Louis fight though.
He was one BAD mothah!
-----------------------------
quack
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Yes. Our adversary, the fallen arch, loves to
broadcast that he is equal to, but diametrically
opposed to, the True God. Of course, he is a
liar, and the father of lies, also.
All his best efforts are cheap knockoffs of God's
stuff.
God rules "up" in Heaven.
Satan, at one point, set his minions so as to
claim rulership of the air, "up" to us.
And so on.
_______
Goey. thanks for the explanation. I knew that
stuff was wrong, but I didn't have a verse handy.
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
CircleGame
Al Poole - giving away my age, something a woman should never do!! However, I am glad I grew up when I did - I listened to good (natural) music, and got into twi1. Why do I think the music of the 60's and 70's is so good? Not just because I was young. I truly think it is because those people were talented. My mother thought so too (A WWII)Classic R&R is what I like - and folk rock too. JA47646 - Billy Joel born of the wrong seed? I heard back in the early 80's that a member of his band took the class. Also someone in Earth, Wind & Fire.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hope R.
Nadia Comaneci - the Romanian gymnast who scored a perfect 10 in the summer olympics.
I remember sitting in a class that Gxxxxd Wxxxn was teaching and we were watching a tape of the competition. He distinctly said she was either seed or possessed because it was impossible to score a perfect 10 in anything.
If I'm not mistaken - every Secretary General of the UN has been either possessed by a "5 Star General" debbil spurt, or was a "seed boy" - according to TWI.
Yeah - Boutros Boutros Ghali and Dag Hammarskjold have me quivering in my shoes....
Hope R. color>size>face>
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Yanagisawa
I have a recurring dream where I'm running from a very malicious, evil presence.
I can hear the racing footsteps getting closer and closer...the icy breath...a morbid incomprehendable rush of syllables...evil emanating like a rope forming a noose around my neck...
...I keep slipping and falling...then it's too late...I look back for the last time as my mouth forms a blood curdling scream that will never be heard...
...the last thing I see is Boutros Boutros Ghali, Nadia Comaneci and Dag Hammarskjold...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Aw Heck!
I guess that means Bo Dereck was a "seed girl." - I suspected there was something wrong with her.
Goey
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheSongRemainsTheSame
Hiya chwester,
Oh my ... Seed O' de Serpent. Almost sounds like a cologne eh. Seed Boys, born of the Devil, Children of the devil, Rosemary's Baby.... whoops
:)-->
People I was informed to be "wrong seed" are:
Mohammed Ali
The Pop up Pope
Barbara Striesand
Jimmy Page
Alexis Crowley
Sir Authur Conan Doyle
Hitler
Mussolini
Stalin
Marx
John Kennedy
Fidel Castro
Mao Tse Tung
Henry Ford
M. Ghandi
Ray Krock (McDonalds Founder)
Shirley McClaine
Mother Teresa
John Travolta
Ozzy Osborne
Marlon Brando
Frank Sinatra
Martin Luther King
Abraham Lincoln
Alice Cooper
Mick Jagger
Stevie Nicks
oh yeah & that exiled guy from Tibet... Dolly Lama
Well, that's about all I can think of now & please forgive my sphelling.
Glad ya did not ask who TWI said/says was/is possessed or insane. Last I heard there are approx 5000 participants in TWI. On Oct. 12, 1999, the United Nations announced that global population had reached the 6 billion mark. So let's see: 6,000,000,000 minus 5000 = 5,999,995,000 that are not of the true Household Of Gawd & outside the huddle of the "Present Truth". Now that would be quite a list eh. Does anyone remember , gist through the years: "Those who do not believe the Word are insane. We are the true Household of God, The Body of Christ. Grease Spots By Midnight. (& an all time favorite) God won't even spit in your direction..." etc ad nauseum?
Maybe there should be a list "Seed of The Serpents" to avoid.... hahahahahahahahahahhhhh
Rok On
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
you're great sws
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Abraham Lincoln and Mother Teresa?
No kidding.
I think a couple of those guys have dabbled
in occultism, but I don't know that any of
them was 'hardcore'.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
Goey: What you said about the devil can't create permanent seed etc.? I'm listening, but in Matt.12:31&32 it says 'not forgiven in this world or in that which is to come'. Granted it doesn't say anything about a wrong seed or a trap door being permanently wedged open, but it does seem to say it's possible to still be breathing and be able to do something that will prevent the possibility of ever getting saved. What say you? (parallel records in Mark 3:28&29 and Luke 12:10) I mean, if this is possible, wouldn't such a person have a unique potential to oppose God's people or would they just be screwed for eternity but just like everybody else other than that?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Catcup
Muhammad Ali
Barbara Streisand
and, oh, yeah, the head of the Ford Modeling Agency, whoever she is. That grad who used to model Guess jeans had an interview with the head of Ford. Afterwards, Craig had her share with TWC what happened at the interview, This chick told TWC that she "confronted" this woman, then who showed her "true colors" as "seed". I wonder if she spit pea soup?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
johniam, there's nothing in the Matthew record regarding the "unforgivable sin" that ties it to other records that mention children of the devil or similar. In other words, to commit the unforgivable sin is not to become a child of the devil. There is zero biblical support for that idea.
Many mainstream commentaries make a simple & unambiguous case that the "unforgivable sin" of matthew is simply to reject Christ.
Okay, I can hear your objections to that.
There is nothing that indicates that one is ever "born of Satan's seed". That's an invention of Wierwille that doesn't enjoy biblical support. Satan has no such creative or reproductive power, being darkness & parasitic. Any place it refers to 'child of the devil', 'sons of disobedience', etc, it is metaphoric, even as you and I were both children of disobedience...we belonged to Satan. But that didn't make us his "spawn" and we remained, as all are, fully redeemable by the blood of Christ.
Christ's offer is to all, whosoever...including the Christ-rejecters. The rejecters who accept Christ aren't rejecters after all, are they?
Another angle to view Wierwille's strange doctrine is the horrendous fruit it bore. The suspicion & naming of people as "seed of the Devil", the focusing on the Deeeevil, ugh. All people, "believer" or "unbeliever" are precious in God's sight and loved by Him equally. Christ's sacrifice was & is effectual to save to the uttermost....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Golfie
Evan wrote
==================================================
There is nothing that indicates that one is ever "born of Satan's seed". That's an invention of Wierwille that doesn't enjoy biblical support. Satan has no such creative or reproductive power, being darkness & parasitic. Any place it refers to 'child of the devil', 'sons of disobedience', etc, it is metaphoric,
===================================================
Amen. I saw the seldom played PFAL segment "The Unforgivable Sin". Now I am so thankful that it was NOT included in the 12 session class because that teaching is so wrong!
Lucifer, Gabriel and Michael were God's archangels.
Lucifer cannot create seed any more than Gabriel or Michael.
Being "of" someone in the bible does not always indicate seed. I believe the Bible is figurative referring to certain people as "of the devil, the serpant, Belial, etc."
VPW was way off base on this topic, LCW was farther off...in left field. (Please excuse the baseball analogy.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
Evan: The idea that the "unforgivable sin" is simply to reject Christ doesn't make sense to me. It says no forgiveness in this world or that which is to come. There has to be something people can do before dying that would exempt them from salvation, otherwise why would it say neither in this world nor that which is to come? I agree that thinking about this topic too much genders a lot of evil thinking and all the other stuff we're not sposed to do per 1 Cor. 13.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
johniam, rather than post what some popular commenataries say about this, I'll post the following link, already set for Matthew 12. You can then select the commentaries & study Bibles one at a time and read as you see fit. Just select one, then scroll down to the commentary on v31-32:
http://www.ccel.org/wwsb/Matthew/12.html
I'll just make a few remarks that reflect the consensus of what you'll read there:
(Besides I'm about to get busted for posting this here...I suppose we should sneak off to the hairy armpit of the forums, the Doctrinal section!)
The context is specifically the sin of the Pharisees, who hardened their hearts to Jesus and wilfully rejected the proofs of who he really was. They were so convincing themselves against Him as to harden themselves against ever repenting. SHOULD they never repent, they would then die unredeemed & unforgiven. That's it. It's good to know that Paul says in Timothy that we are not to be judges of such things...such judgement belongs only to the Lord. Clearly, Wierwille & Martindale were Pharisees in this regard.
From another commentary: That the Pharisees obstinately attributed Christ's charcter and works to the devil, works that could ONLY be wrought by God (which they knew full well) is evidence of such a hard heart and is the essence of blasphemy. Note that the unforgivable sin is explained in Mark 3:28&29 followed in v.30 by "BECAUSE they said, He hath an unclean spirit".
I don't feel qualified to address 'neither in this world or that which is to come'. The commentaries handle it a number of different ways...some dispensational (neither in this *age*, etc) some otherwise.
Hope that helps.
Wierwille's explanation may seem to make sense in a vacuum...taken solely on its own merits without regard to what the Bible says. But as soon as you bring in the scriptures it falls apart, becoming almost like Greek mythology in comparison. His explanation utterly divorces what Jesus said from its context.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Of course, some answers make more questions than they answer. Which is as it should be, I suppose.
To take a more simplistic stab at it, let me say that the reason there is no forgiveness is there is no repentance. Should an unrepentant repent, well, they're no longer unrepentant, are they? What i am trying to say is the "God is able to save to the uttermost", even those who are recalcitrant unrepentants...if & when they repent.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Mother Teresa, that's the one that always gets me. Sheesh.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chwester
Mother Theresa? Yeah, that one gets me too. I don't believe it at all. Let's see, she lived a selfless life serving others. Yeah, that sounds devilish!
Guess she could have done it for self-recognition.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheSongRemainsTheSame
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
you're great sws
excathedra
>>>>>>>>
Hiya Exc!!!!!!!
har de ha ha deha ha + 2 guffaws
Awe,Shucks,Naw.... you're more greater mon ami.
But remember the greatest was Ali... do ya remember an Advanced Class clip of the Cassuis Clay & Sonny Liston fight being shown in slow mo and the KO punch by CC totally missed Sonny, but Sonny went down KO'D anyway? After that, CC became the "Heavy Weight Champion of The World" and then changed his name to Mo Ali. And so the story goes... Mo sold out to Allah and began to promote Islam & God Blessed Howard Kosell.
sws
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abraham Lincoln and Mother Teresa?
No kidding.
I think a couple of those guys have dabbled
in occultism, but I don't know that any of
them was 'hardcore'.
WordWolf
>>>>>>>>
Ya know WW, I think I was a little hasty with Mother T. I might just have to retract that statement and hold her in the "poZZeZo file." I do definetly remember her being disCUSSed as possessed. The truth is out there ya know.
Abe Lincoln I know for sure was labeled as Seed of the Serpent. I believe it was VP that was teaching this in context the Devil was trying to split this great country apart through the Cival War and Abe L. was the one to carry this out... and dig this... that Abe being SOS and all SOS die violent deaths, hence Boothe being possessed by a murder spirit assasinated AL. Now how is that for a spiritual political conspiracy theory? Whew, such insight into the devils back halls. Must have been all that snow at the gas pumps.
Yeah, that is what I said about those who dabbled in the occult, but was told make no mistake, they are SOS and operate in secrecy and so sometimes the "hardcore" seem harmless. Always an explaination for accusations from the witch hunters... eh.
Alexis Crowley was definetly on the dark side just from my own personal O.
Jimmy Page played in the occult and was a huge fan of Crowley in so much he purchased Crowley's home. It is rumoured that John Bonham's death is a direct result of Pagy making a pact with the Devil. Some one had to be the sacrifice. Sounds like one of them "went down to the crossroads" rocknroll images, hammer of the gods type of thing. Oh well, such are the rumours...
Speaking of rumours... Stevie Nicks is a witch! The song Rhiannon was used to show her obedience to the Adversary.
Rhiannon
Lyrics by Fleetwood Mac
Rhiannon rings like a bell thru the night
and wouldn't you love to love her?
she rules her life like a bird in flight
and who will be her lover?
all your life you've never seen
a woman , taken by the wind
would you stay if she promised you heaven?
will you ever win.........?
CHORUS: Rhiannon......
Rhiannon......
Rhiannon......
she is like a cat in the dark
and then she is the darkness
she rules her life like a fine skylark
and when the sky is starless
all your life you've never seen
a woman..taken by the wind...
would you stay if she promised you heaven?
will you ever win.....?
will you ever win.....?
CHORUS:
Rhiannon......
Rhiannon......
Rhiannon......
Dreams unwind
Love's a state of mind
Rhiannon Lyrics
Hmmm... Makes ya wonder eh?
Here's another couple I heard was SOS:
Houdini
David Copperfield
But that Elton Jon & Bernie Tarpin were Homo Po's
Ya know WW what interests, fascinates, intrigues me now about SOS & Po's?.... It's the stories, the drama of the dark side vs the light side, the continuing & developing of myths in this present age based upon ancient gods & godesses & Star Wars, & that there may just be other life on other planets and if they were to visit us it won't be a Close Encounters of the Third Kind or ET, but more like Independence Day.... oh well, that would be another thread.
But all in all, I think this SOS & PoZzeZzo's deal is along the lines the sun revolves around the earth and the earth is the centre of the universe.
PS... The Cross has no effect on Vampires.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Muhammad Ali
Barbara Streisand
and, oh, yeah, the head of the Ford Modeling Agency, whoever she is. That grad who used to model Guess jeans had an interview with the head of Ford. Afterwards, Craig had her share with TWC what happened at the interview, This chick told TWC that she "confronted" this woman, then who showed her "true colors" as "seed". I wonder if she spit pea soup?
Catcup
>>>>>>>>
Hey Catcup, I heard that sharing at a ROA . I know the Guess jeans Model. The impact I remember was the Model quoting a response from the head of FMA: "My God is bigger than your God."
Looking back, it seems to me an obvious ploy to promote TWI Devil Spirit doctrine by having a grad celebrity figure as a prop their pretenses of holiness thereby issuing an alert to the true household..."It's The Word! The Word ! The Word! & nothing but the WORD!!!!!!! Come out from among them.... blah blah blah
Catcup, I have not thought about that Model in quite a few some time...last time i heard was during the "fog".. said Model split from TWI & said... quote... "Craig has a spirit of slumber..."
& Craig is saying in ref to CG**r "He has herds of devil spirits stampeeding through his mind."
What a story eh Catcup!!!!!!!
And the beat goes on...
Rok On!!!!!!!
Where is that confounded bridge?
ZOSO
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on March 02, 2003 at 17:44.]
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.