We were witnessing...running classes...encouraging people to grow with God...told them that they needed to go wow and corpes....
Thing is....when our dear sisters arrived on campus..hq...etc...while we were out on the field continuing in our spiritual responsibilities.....endeavoring to do our best for his highest...earnestly engaging in the spiritual battle on a daily basis....these fat cats were preying on these wonderfull women who thought they had made a commitmeant to God....
We sent them our money...we couldn`t repair our cars....couldn`t afford food at times....God needed the first fruits of our labors....and now we find out it was used at times to finance abortions....buy the newest toys for the mogs...or treat the mogs ladies....
All of this evil that we lured unsuspecting souls seeking God into......we were the bait for the snare.
I feel dirty.
[This message was edited by rascal on March 11, 2004 at 13:45.]
The *good* things in twi are what lured folks d into an organization...one in which their children would one day be forced to endure abuse...placed in a position to be exploited by pedophiles..women placed in the power of abusive men... mariages that would be destroyed due to interfering leaders with no skills for *counceling*
women would be forced to abort their children....
ALL of the great things we promised folks from the green cards the scriptures we taught them to win their trust...it was OUR credibility that folks bought into....
God forgive me......I don`t think I can wax nostalgic for the *good* things of twi....
Me either. Not long ago I could. Now I look back and see that there was no real loving kindness in twi. It just was not allowed.
I mean, seriously, look at things even now from the perspective of those who have been out for years...we're still having to argue whether or not rape and beatings were "really abuse".
What in the he11 did people think about such things when they were in?
quote:...that means that THESE very things are what enabled the evil to remain incognito...to wreak havock in peoples lives behind the scenes....so are they/we really such a *good* thing?
All depends on your point of view in life.
Is the world, and God's creation, such a good thing, considering all the evil that happens?
Cool Waters....I guess I am thinking about how it was our excitement that sold pfal...it was our wholesome image that told people that the way ministry was a good place to be....
There were thousands of us with the best of intentions inviting people to learn about God...running classes in our homes....promoting wow adv. class and corpes...talented teachers...inspired musicians and artists.....
and NOW we find out that we were putting folks in harms way....the sinister forces waiting to indulge themselves at these peoples expense....these people who TRUSTED us!
We had the BEST of intentions....and yet we lured people into what turned out to be their destruction....
College plans were abandoned....families were ignored....a lifetime of struggles for many of us.......
They looked at us....they saw good hearted earnest christians and so they bought into twi.
All that work that I thought I was doing for God....all of the sacrifices made....and now I find out that I was merely a tool to impliment consumption and destruction of others...
The *good* in twi....seems to have aided in the beguiling of people.... Idon`t know if I can apreciate any of the good because it is what blinded me to the harm that was being done.
If the *good* was what enabled the bad to function...does that mean that the *good* was really Bad?
[This message was edited by rascal on March 11, 2004 at 17:31.]
Were you excited about Jesus Christ? God? Being able to have the Power of God in your life? Did you tell people that God loved them?
Then YOU (and those like you) were the GOOD in TWI.
Yes, I feel bad about getting people into a CULT but I do not regret telling anyone that God loved them and would heal their hearts.
You were God's hands working in a shlt storm. And it is because God never did leave us or forsake us, because there were some people like you, we have conflicting feelings about TWI. (i.e., Gee, it was a bad cult but some people were so loving and great to me...)
I think TWI was an evil cult. But I think God is a good and loving God.
I think that God loved us despite TWI. God worked in some people to show his love despite the fact that they were in a cult.
God loved people through your excitment for the Bible and your heart despite VPW and LCM and all the evil they set up.
I am still thankful for Joe Guarini and the PFAL class (the watered down BG Leonard class), Lynn Merkel, Terry Pascoe, Leslie Olsen, LeAnn Kehr, Shelley Tishmberely, Michael Bolten, Al Poole. These, and other people brought me God like I had never known him (and I needed to know him).
I only wish I had taken BG's class or that VPW was honest enough to tell us about Leonard and others. I wish I had left sooner, but I do not blame the good people that loved God for touching my life even though it was in the context of a cult.
I resent the cult leaders and those people that turned out to NOT be nice people but servants to the cult. There is a marked difference. (IMO)
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 11, 2004 at 20:56.]
Look, I know someone who was killing herself. She had slit her wrists and lay on the floor sobbing to the Lord. She was screaming, "I believe Jesus is Lord! I believe he got up from the dead! But what the "F" good has that ever done me?"
The room felt and looked lighter, the blood stopped, she began to speak in tongues and God laid a message on her heart.
So, does that make suicide a good thing? Or God a good God because he reached down through a very desperate situation and loved that woman?
God - good
Suicide - bad
But because a GOOD God reached through a bad situation, does not make the bad situation a "good one" It means there is no ocean depth, or farness of the sky that can remove God's love from us and that he will find a way to love us even when we are "out there" or "in a cult."
quote:(1)Was God REALLY guiding me there? Why would he put us in harms way...to be used and fleeced by someone who represented him?
(2)Maybe he just helped me out of there once I was ensnared....(3)maybe the great things I experienced were from God in SPITE of the evil that we were facilitating...(4)maybe I should just be gratefull to him for my good experiences rather than giving credit to the devourers
(5)Does he hold us responsible for the damage twi inflicted...since it was through our efforts that Vp and lcm were able to masquerade as a legitimate ministry....
IMHO:
1) someone who CLAIMED THEY represented Him.
2) definitely
3) I think so
4) maybe, that's something we all have to hold onto if we wish
5) NO!
:)-->
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
Rascal: Remember Paul did some bad stuff when he thought he was doing God's will. God forgave him. Paul also sometimes longed for the good times. God didn't care if he went to Jerusalem to re live old times. He just didn't want Paul to get hurt. What's done is done. Paul admitted that he did it ignorantly in unbelief. Look at all the evil that has been documented from the catholic church, yet God can work there, can't he?
quote: Is the world, and God's creation, such a good thing, considering all the evil that happens?
Were we supposed to really think about that questoin?
because when you really think about it, you get some interesting answers.
God's "masterpieces", us humans, throughout history have done more evil than imaginable and he knew we would from the beginning (whenever that was) before he made us.
I don't sweat whether or not my involvement was good or bad. I am what I am. Yes, in part because of twi. The good with the bad. Aren't we all that way?
I just move ahead trying to make myself better.
We could analyze our everyday actions and see how they adversely affect other people throughout the world and see that we are very "evil". We would probably be paralized by guilt knowing how the gas I use or the diamond i gave my wife negatively affects people in the world.
We could do the same and see a lot of good as well.
Kind of a Yin-yang sort of thing. There is not one without the other.
Who is he? The name is familiar? Iis he the Iranian guy who was in the 11th corps with the miracle story on how he got out of going to jail? If so, I am very sad.
He was in trouble for something, like owning a Bible and they were driving him to prision (?) and he was praying --and in a country where there are NO bumper stickers -- He saw one on the car in front of him saying "Help is on the way".
TWI is imploding as we live and speak. The things that attracted us to twi was yes, an organized (the way) of viewing the bible,unconditional love,a place to belong and reason for our existance. I know, back in the old days people really beieived for signs,miracles and wonders and saw them. Not because of twi's teachings or beleiving but because God is good and bigger than the organization and us.(It took me a while to figure that one out) The things that were done on a spiritual plane,(because we so loved people and wanted Gods best for them)I think made the difference between GOOD AND EVIL.Love is spiritual.
The reason i think twi cannot endure much longer. It is because of the lack of love ,limited inspiration and the meanspiritedness of the group. Those qualities are self evident and are easy now to identify. These characteristic used to be upper echolon behaviour. Now it has filtered down to a twig level. And for thoose of us that said enough is enough are witnesses to what is despirtly evil.
I am so sadened by something that was in spirit sooo healing, was used to further financal and sexual gain. Regardless of the evil, I got to experiance God in a manner that... could not be taught and sometimes shared. When you peel away the layers of twi thinking and hooopla, you are made aware of the spirituality you lived and had your being in. Your spiritual core self will affirm you.
Again as for twi it was an organization that was terribly wrong with a bunch of people(you and me)that were terribly right. And it was the right people who made it work. Those people have left and are leaving. So I dont worry about twi future...it has none. THAT IS MY FINAL ANSWER !!!!!!
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George Aar
Indeed, we were unknowing participants in a cruel charade.
Now that we're aware of that fact, how do you look back with fondness at the time when you were being actively duped, being played for a sucker?
Seems like denial to me, but then, whadoIknow?...
geo.
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rascal
We were witnessing...running classes...encouraging people to grow with God...told them that they needed to go wow and corpes....
Thing is....when our dear sisters arrived on campus..hq...etc...while we were out on the field continuing in our spiritual responsibilities.....endeavoring to do our best for his highest...earnestly engaging in the spiritual battle on a daily basis....these fat cats were preying on these wonderfull women who thought they had made a commitmeant to God....
We sent them our money...we couldn`t repair our cars....couldn`t afford food at times....God needed the first fruits of our labors....and now we find out it was used at times to finance abortions....buy the newest toys for the mogs...or treat the mogs ladies....
All of this evil that we lured unsuspecting souls seeking God into......we were the bait for the snare.
I feel dirty.
[This message was edited by rascal on March 11, 2004 at 13:45.]
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rascal
The *good* things in twi are what lured folks d into an organization...one in which their children would one day be forced to endure abuse...placed in a position to be exploited by pedophiles..women placed in the power of abusive men... mariages that would be destroyed due to interfering leaders with no skills for *counceling*
women would be forced to abort their children....
ALL of the great things we promised folks from the green cards the scriptures we taught them to win their trust...it was OUR credibility that folks bought into....
God forgive me......I don`t think I can wax nostalgic for the *good* things of twi....
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CoolWaters
rascal,
Me either. Not long ago I could. Now I look back and see that there was no real loving kindness in twi. It just was not allowed.
I mean, seriously, look at things even now from the perspective of those who have been out for years...we're still having to argue whether or not rape and beatings were "really abuse".
What in the he11 did people think about such things when they were in?
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oldiesman
All depends on your point of view in life.
Is the world, and God's creation, such a good thing, considering all the evil that happens?
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oldiesman
Roy, I agree. (there are two sides to everything)
actually, it's been said there may even be three sides to everything:
your side
my side
the truth
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rascal
Cool Waters....I guess I am thinking about how it was our excitement that sold pfal...it was our wholesome image that told people that the way ministry was a good place to be....
There were thousands of us with the best of intentions inviting people to learn about God...running classes in our homes....promoting wow adv. class and corpes...talented teachers...inspired musicians and artists.....
and NOW we find out that we were putting folks in harms way....the sinister forces waiting to indulge themselves at these peoples expense....these people who TRUSTED us!
We had the BEST of intentions....and yet we lured people into what turned out to be their destruction....
College plans were abandoned....families were ignored....a lifetime of struggles for many of us.......
They looked at us....they saw good hearted earnest christians and so they bought into twi.
All that work that I thought I was doing for God....all of the sacrifices made....and now I find out that I was merely a tool to impliment consumption and destruction of others...
The *good* in twi....seems to have aided in the beguiling of people.... Idon`t know if I can apreciate any of the good because it is what blinded me to the harm that was being done.
If the *good* was what enabled the bad to function...does that mean that the *good* was really Bad?
[This message was edited by rascal on March 11, 2004 at 17:31.]
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Dot Matrix
Rascal
Were you excited about Jesus Christ? God? Being able to have the Power of God in your life? Did you tell people that God loved them?
Then YOU (and those like you) were the GOOD in TWI.
Yes, I feel bad about getting people into a CULT but I do not regret telling anyone that God loved them and would heal their hearts.
You were God's hands working in a shlt storm. And it is because God never did leave us or forsake us, because there were some people like you, we have conflicting feelings about TWI. (i.e., Gee, it was a bad cult but some people were so loving and great to me...)
I think TWI was an evil cult. But I think God is a good and loving God.
I think that God loved us despite TWI. God worked in some people to show his love despite the fact that they were in a cult.
God loved people through your excitment for the Bible and your heart despite VPW and LCM and all the evil they set up.
I am still thankful for Joe Guarini and the PFAL class (the watered down BG Leonard class), Lynn Merkel, Terry Pascoe, Leslie Olsen, LeAnn Kehr, Shelley Tishmberely, Michael Bolten, Al Poole. These, and other people brought me God like I had never known him (and I needed to know him).
I only wish I had taken BG's class or that VPW was honest enough to tell us about Leonard and others. I wish I had left sooner, but I do not blame the good people that loved God for touching my life even though it was in the context of a cult.
I resent the cult leaders and those people that turned out to NOT be nice people but servants to the cult. There is a marked difference. (IMO)
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 11, 2004 at 20:56.]
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Dot Matrix
Look, I know someone who was killing herself. She had slit her wrists and lay on the floor sobbing to the Lord. She was screaming, "I believe Jesus is Lord! I believe he got up from the dead! But what the "F" good has that ever done me?"
The room felt and looked lighter, the blood stopped, she began to speak in tongues and God laid a message on her heart.
So, does that make suicide a good thing? Or God a good God because he reached down through a very desperate situation and loved that woman?
God - good
Suicide - bad
But because a GOOD God reached through a bad situation, does not make the bad situation a "good one" It means there is no ocean depth, or farness of the sky that can remove God's love from us and that he will find a way to love us even when we are "out there" or "in a cult."
Racal - do not be so hard on yourself.
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Trefor Heywood
The good memories were always the people and the love and sharing and fellowship I had with them.
I was reminded of a good memory today when hearing about the sad death of Kaveh Kamyar and tears come to my eyes.
I never cried about VPW nor all the evil that grew around him.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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Tom Strange
IMHO:
1) someone who CLAIMED THEY represented Him.
2) definitely
3) I think so
4) maybe, that's something we all have to hold onto if we wish
5) NO!
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
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johniam
Rascal: Remember Paul did some bad stuff when he thought he was doing God's will. God forgave him. Paul also sometimes longed for the good times. God didn't care if he went to Jerusalem to re live old times. He just didn't want Paul to get hurt. What's done is done. Paul admitted that he did it ignorantly in unbelief. Look at all the evil that has been documented from the catholic church, yet God can work there, can't he?
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lindyhopper
oldies....
Were we supposed to really think about that questoin?
because when you really think about it, you get some interesting answers.
God's "masterpieces", us humans, throughout history have done more evil than imaginable and he knew we would from the beginning (whenever that was) before he made us.
Kind of interesting.
OK then...Who's your mommy?
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lindyhopper
Kind of not.
OK then...Who's your mommy?
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lindyhopper
BTW...
I don't sweat whether or not my involvement was good or bad. I am what I am. Yes, in part because of twi. The good with the bad. Aren't we all that way?
I just move ahead trying to make myself better.
We could analyze our everyday actions and see how they adversely affect other people throughout the world and see that we are very "evil". We would probably be paralized by guilt knowing how the gas I use or the diamond i gave my wife negatively affects people in the world.
We could do the same and see a lot of good as well.
Kind of a Yin-yang sort of thing. There is not one without the other.
OK then...Who's your mommy?
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Oakspear
B.O.C. prescience...
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
Oakspear
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Dot Matrix
Trefor
Kaveh Kamyar
Who is he? The name is familiar? Iis he the Iranian guy who was in the 11th corps with the miracle story on how he got out of going to jail? If so, I am very sad.
He was in trouble for something, like owning a Bible and they were driving him to prision (?) and he was praying --and in a country where there are NO bumper stickers -- He saw one on the car in front of him saying "Help is on the way".
I forget the rest of the story but he was saved.
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Dot Matrix
Sorry for the choo- choo
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Ginger Tea
(referring back to page 1, lol)
Do you really believe there are only 3 ways to look at life?
Our humanity is shet out of luck then, I think!
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Trefor Heywood
Yes Dot - see the in memorium section.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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Ginger Tea
I think some of the meanest people I ever met were 'Christians'...
...those 'certain' types who are unconscious people, hiding behind their Christianity.
You know the type!
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Dot Matrix
Oh Trefor
I am so sad. He could not have been that old.
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Dot Matrix
Back to the topic...
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imbus
Hey Rascal,
TWI is imploding as we live and speak. The things that attracted us to twi was yes, an organized (the way) of viewing the bible,unconditional love,a place to belong and reason for our existance. I know, back in the old days people really beieived for signs,miracles and wonders and saw them. Not because of twi's teachings or beleiving but because God is good and bigger than the organization and us.(It took me a while to figure that one out) The things that were done on a spiritual plane,(because we so loved people and wanted Gods best for them)I think made the difference between GOOD AND EVIL.Love is spiritual.
The reason i think twi cannot endure much longer. It is because of the lack of love ,limited inspiration and the meanspiritedness of the group. Those qualities are self evident and are easy now to identify. These characteristic used to be upper echolon behaviour. Now it has filtered down to a twig level. And for thoose of us that said enough is enough are witnesses to what is despirtly evil.
I am so sadened by something that was in spirit sooo healing, was used to further financal and sexual gain. Regardless of the evil, I got to experiance God in a manner that... could not be taught and sometimes shared. When you peel away the layers of twi thinking and hooopla, you are made aware of the spirituality you lived and had your being in. Your spiritual core self will affirm you.
Again as for twi it was an organization that was terribly wrong with a bunch of people(you and me)that were terribly right. And it was the right people who made it work. Those people have left and are leaving. So I dont worry about twi future...it has none. THAT IS MY FINAL ANSWER !!!!!!
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