quote:If Oldies and I have been "distracting from the main topic" as you and others seem to think, then why have there been no examples of sadistic leadership given since page 4? Me and OM do not have any phantom "pause button" which stops anybody from posting about sadistic leadership. Ala prochaine and Bramble gave some examples on page 2 and a few others followed, but the last 10 pages has been the "OM and Jiam show" with special guests.
Thanks for mentioning this Johniam. What was it someone once said "do not feed the monster"? I think it was Hope R. Anyway, I think that's good advice. Some posters don't like what we post, respond with questions, comments and insults (thereby accentuating, feeding, the apparent distraction), whatever, then blame us for distracting and posting on things that "aren't the point". Ok whateva... Btw, thanks for your support.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
quote:Has anyone ever heard of VPW or LCM seeking forgiveness? I realize we can not know the heart of the man. But it would appear outwardly had either of them done so they would have also stopped taking unto themselves women that were not theirs to take.
That's a good question, and never heard of them doing that. On the flip side, I never heard of them NOT doing that. For all I know, Craig could be in fellowship with God right now, and Dr asked for forgiveness on his death bed. It's possible, isn't it? Who's to say what's in the heart of a man, especially on his death bed. There's some opinion in The Cult That Snapped that he was sorry, or felt sorry, as an observation by one of the women who knew of his misdeeds. Who knows?
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
I thought about posting some of this on the “How Much Authority…” thread, but it didn’t really seem to fit the topic. I'm not sure how well it fits here, but I’m going to post it anyway. As so many threads do, both threads turned to the topic of “adultery,” though not exclusively. I put “adultery” in quotes because, although adultery is included, it’s the minor aspect. “Ministers” using people to serve their own lusts is the major one.
From that other thread:
quote:Originally posted by shazdancer:
Dear Raf,
You said
quote:Why did the abused allow the abuses? Fear. Intimidation. Threats. Lack of knowledge and/or understanding of God's Word. Lack of confidence in God. Too much confidence in men, particularly men who claim to speak for God. Respect of persons.
And add to that list...love.
You can also add pain, hunger for love, need for comfort, counseling, instruction, and other things, as well.
People in great need are vulnerable to being deceived and abused. The greater the need, the greater the vulnerability. Ministers put themselves forth as being competent, ethical, and loving people who are uniquely qualified and willing to help people in need. In different categories, so do medical doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, and counselors. All of those professions provide unusual opportunities to help people, but also unusual access to vulnerable people and unusual opportunity to get beyond normal walls that most people erect, in order to prey on the vulnerable. Another thing – all of those professions provide opportunities for unscrupulous people to instill in others vulnerabilities they didn’t have when they first sought help. They also provide opportunities for unscrupulous people to set up situations in which they are in control and the people seeking help are less able than normal to either give or deny informed, rational consent. Sometimes, with some people, the unscrupulous “helpers” can set up situations in which it is virtually impossible for their victims to give genuine consent.
It is a good thing for former victims to look back and understand how they came to be victimized, and what part they may have played in it, if any. Doing so can facilitate closure and can strengthen them against the possibility of future, similar victimization. It is NOT a good thing for people to jump into every discussion about unscrupulous, manipulative, deceitful, scum-of-the-earth professional abusers, masquerading as “ministers” or “men of God,” and point out the so-called “sin” of their victims. There probably was some of that, in some cases. But even if every woman in the world threw themselves at those scum-balls, they had no excuse. Many, if not most, of the women did (have an excuse) AT THAT TIME, as did many, if not most of the other victims of TWI ministerial abuse. If they were to now fall victim to the same sort of abuse, then they would have a greater degree of culpability. (“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”) Even so, that would not remove one tiny bit of the culpability of the sorry bastards that prey on those they purport to help.
On the flip side, I never heard of them NOT doing that [asking forgiveness]. For all I know, Craig could be in fellowship with God right now, and Dr asked for forgiveness on his death bed. It's possible, isn't it?
It makes no difference. It doesn’t excuse years and years of preying on people. If God later forgives the men, that's his business. It doesn't change the fact that WHAT they did was wicked, harmed many people, and had consequences that lasted for years, even extending past their lifetimes. In comparison to all eternity, that may or may not mean much, but here in the real world, where real people suffer real-life consequences of their actions, "I'm sorry" doesn't wipe it all away.
I am not a proponent of wound addiction and nobody has to let Wierwille's misdeeds (or anyone else's) influence their life and have so much power over them that they can't function without mentioning it endlessly. That's why the bible mentions forgiveness and other goodies.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
No, you’re not a proponent of wound addiction, Oldiesman. You’re a proponent of excusing the people who caused the wounds. You’re a proponent of shifting blame, by repeatedly propounding the notion that many, if not most, of the wounds were self-inflicted. You’re a proponent of the notion that people shouldn’t discuss Wierwille’s predatory ways, that he taught to others, that have been causing new wounds continually for thirty or more years and are still causing fresh wounds to be inflicted on current TWI people today. You’re a proponent of saying that Jesus was a backbiting liar (read Matthew 23). Concerning the ongoing nature of Wierwille’s “child of hell” ministry, reread verse 15.
Now, if the only thing people do is to bitch about something that happened 20 years ago and use it as an excuse to not live well now, then they’ve given Wierwille’s wickedness too much power over their lives and failed to take the responsibility for living their own lives now. I haven’t seen anyone do that. I have seen someone (you) repeatedly opening some people’s old wounds and hindering the healing of other people’s fresher wounds. That really is about all you accomplish. You claim to believe the Bible. Sometime, you ought to make an effort to understand the heart of the Bible, particularly of Jesus.
quote:I am not a proponent of wound addiction and nobody has to let Wierwille's misdeeds (or anyone else's) influence their life and have so much power over them that they can't function without mentioning it endlessly. That's why the bible mentions forgiveness and other goodies.
I say this with all sincerity, that's easy for you to say, you've never lived through what they have. Again, I implore you to have a little compassion... understand that there is no way in heaven or he11 that you or I will ever be able to understand what they have gone through... it's a mistake from the get-go to think you can...
quote:Now, if the only thing people do is to bitch about something that happened 20 years ago and use it as an excuse to not live well now, then they’ve given Wierwille’s wickedness too much power over their lives and failed to take the responsibility for living their own lives now. I haven’t seen anyone do that.
Me either. I've seen people relate their real life stories. I've seen people 'shout from the rooftops' about veepee and his gang... I haven't seen anyone 'wallowing in self pity'... they have nothing to 'self pity' about... they are blameless... they are victims... and they're trying to help others from becoming so... IMO
It would be so much easier if the victims recognized that they were being victimized at the time. Then they wouldn't be "victims" and could be called guilty, willing participants in the evil doings "for God's sake".
I'm glad God is tender, merciful, kind and looks on the heart. I'm also glad that after the return there will be no more tears, no more pain and no more abuse.
Do you know of anyone who "can't function mentally " without harping on VPW's misdeeds?
Sure, there are those people who will remain "perpetual victims" but these are the exceptions rather than the rule. You are taking a small and non-representative sample and attempting to apply to the whole.
Even if someone did take a few moments each day to wail about VPW's misdeeds here at GS, that is not indicitive of an "inability to function mentally."
I could lay a similar charge against you. That you "can't function mentally" without blame-shifting and pointing out the sins of those that VPW wounded. However, even though it's probably closer to the truth than your charge, it would be the same logical fallacy that you used. So I won't do it.
I give you the benefit of the doubt you can "function mentally" outside of GS and that you don't spend all your waking hours blame-shifting and defending VPW/TWI-1 by tearing down folks that they harmed.
I assume that your blame-shifting and defensness of VPW is not consuming your life so much that you can't mentally function without doing it. Am I right or wrong?
quote:Even if someone did take a few moments each day to wail about VPW's misdeeds here at GS, that is not indicitive of an "inability to function mentally."
Goey, you are correct. Folks who perpetually condemn Wierwille for his misdeeds, can, and do, function mentally. Thanks.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
quote:I say this with all sincerity, that's easy for you to say, you've never lived through what they have. Again, I implore you to have a little compassion... understand that there is no way in heaven or he11 that you or I will ever be able to understand what they have gone through... it's a mistake from the get-go to think you can...
Tom, I've gone through many hurts, disappointments, wounds, in my life, so yes I've lived through them. I just don't wallow in them and perpetually think and talk about them; they're history.
Regarding having compassion, I can't stress this enough, but again I'll mention, that this website is available to post opinions. If folks can't take certain opinions I have without getting hurt (I think that's bogus, but assuming it's there), then perhaps one shouldn't, as they say, stay in the kitchen. I would LOVE for some posters to take a breather from their perpetual condemnational finger pointing of Wierwille's misdeeds and think from other perspectives. Some won't do it, refuse to, some even cite scripture as their justification. Ok fine. But those words hurt folks who read them, many of them who never post.
Ok, assuming then that posts hurt folks, maybe we should all have some compassion and should all be quiet? maybe that's the answer...
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
OK OM... my point is that we (you and I) are not women. "We" will never know. Nothing you or I could've gone through would or could compare... unless you were sexually abused and violated by another male (which I don't think you were, or you wouldn't have this viewpoint)...
quote:I would LOVE for some posters to take a breather from their perpetual condemnational finger pointing of Wierwille's misdeeds and think from other perspectives.
I believe that most of the condemnational finger pointing is more "responsive" than "perpetual"... I'm thinking that if you'd allow these folks to "say their piece" without arguing with them or condemning them, they wouldn't be posting over and over... there would be a telling, that's it...
I would LOVE for some posters to take a breather from their perpetual condemnational finger pointing of Wierwille's misdeeds and think from other perspectives.
I would LOVE for some posters to READ the forum title and explanation, and to THINK. “About The Way: This forum is for discussion about the Way International and its leadership.” Who started The Way International? Wierwille. Who was the leader of The Way for most of its existence? Wierwille. Who taught the leaders who followed him? Wierwille.
Think from other perspectives? What the heck do you think people (except a few) are doing? Many once thought of Wierwille as “THE Man of God” and now don’t think of him as even a godly man. Some thought that any criticism, or even any hint of “thinking evil” of “THE Man of God” was wrong, possibly a sign of being possessed by “devil spirits.” Some were horribly used by Wierwille and blamed themselves for years, because it couldn’t have been “THE Man of God’s” fault. Now they realize that it WAS the man of fraud’s fault. That’s a huge change in perspective. YOU are the one who hasn’t changed perspective. You are still doing the same sorts of things to justify abuse, licentiousness, dishonesty, and hypocrisy (they’re not the same) that TWI did, and apparently still does.
Why does Wierwille matter? Because he started the abusive organization, formulated and taught a doctrine that fostered ministerial abuse, centralized authority, and structured the whole organization in such a manner as to remove accountability from the top levels and reduce it in the mid-levels. He taught others, by word and example, not only how to abuse, but that it was their right to do it and their followers’ responsibility to submit to it.
Why is it important for people to realize the extent of Wierwille’s culpability, not only in his own actions, but also in the rampant abuse that continued and continues long after his death? Because people who think that Wierwille was a great man of God and Martindale (or whoever) screwed things up are still vulnerable to the same sorts of abuse, as long as the abuser is as slick as Wierwille, rather than as clumsy as Martindale.
This is “About The Way.” It’s not “About blaming others in order to protect our precious memories of our hero.”
The kitchen could get hotter, Oldiesman. If you can't stand the heat...
quote:OK OM... my point is that we (you and I) are not women. "We" will never know. Nothing you or I could've gone through would or could compare... unless you were sexually abused and violated by another male (which I don't think you were, or you wouldn't have this viewpoint)...
I too know what it's like to be hurt, abused and wounded, and when it comes to posting, I believe there shouldn't be any untouchable gender-based sacred cows commanding greater victim status than others.
quote:I believe that most of the condemnational finger pointing is more "responsive" than "perpetual"... I'm thinking that if you'd allow these folks to "say their piece" without arguing with them or condemning them, they wouldn't be posting over and over... there would be a telling, that's it...
As Excathedra would say: ROF "laughing my a$$ off"
Sometimes I think GS is like a soap opera. You know, like leaving it for months, come back, and one is exactly where they left off. Try it. Come back in 6 months and see if there's any lull in the relentless one-sided condemnation of Wierwille and twi.
Must be something in the nature of man to want to perpetually crush and pulverize a dead horse.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
and for the record... I don't consider it a "gender specific sacred cow"... I consider it something that I personally will never know (ginosko) about...
Sometimes I think GS is like a soap opera. You know, like leaving it for months, come back, and one is exactly where they left off. Try it. Come back in 6 months and see if there's any lull in the relentless one-sided condemnation of Wierwille and twi.
Must be something in the nature of man to want to perpetually crush and pulverize a dead horse.
The person who started this thread registered at GS two months ago. The first person to bring up Wierwille, on page 4 of the thread, registered this month. Why do these things get repeated so much? One major reason is because people who haven't previously discussed them (at least not here) keep popping in and bringing them up.
Ok fine. But then there's the new poster, Wonder 1, whose post, a momentarily varying reprise and opinion, was promptly carved up and cubed like diced ham.
Oops, I should not distract from the task at hand, the warnings about twi evildoers.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
P.S. could someone PLEASE instruct me how I may have the above magnificent quote added to my posts without retyping it all the time?
Oldies you are are liar...nobody has said anything ugly to wonder...only polite responses to the question asked....
Just like you cannot post the name of one poster (yoas YOu have said) who really believes that we women are mindless perpetual victim wanna be`s....yet you are perpetually saying that is our mindset...
Just like you call us liars ...but you won`t specifically say who is telling which particular lie....
You are constantly accusing folks here of mind sets that aren`t ours...or of saying things we haven`t....or assigning mindsets that are not ours....
All you DO here is point fingers and falsly accuse, because what we say makes it blatantly obvious that wierwille twi and his handpicked leaders are not what they portrayed themselves to be........
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oldiesman
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
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oldiesman
Houseisarockin
That's a good question, and never heard of them doing that. On the flip side, I never heard of them NOT doing that. For all I know, Craig could be in fellowship with God right now, and Dr asked for forgiveness on his death bed. It's possible, isn't it? Who's to say what's in the heart of a man, especially on his death bed. There's some opinion in The Cult That Snapped that he was sorry, or felt sorry, as an observation by one of the women who knew of his misdeeds. Who knows?"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
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LG
I thought about posting some of this on the “How Much Authority…” thread, but it didn’t really seem to fit the topic. I'm not sure how well it fits here, but I’m going to post it anyway. As so many threads do, both threads turned to the topic of “adultery,” though not exclusively. I put “adultery” in quotes because, although adultery is included, it’s the minor aspect. “Ministers” using people to serve their own lusts is the major one.
From that other thread:
You can also add pain, hunger for love, need for comfort, counseling, instruction, and other things, as well.People in great need are vulnerable to being deceived and abused. The greater the need, the greater the vulnerability. Ministers put themselves forth as being competent, ethical, and loving people who are uniquely qualified and willing to help people in need. In different categories, so do medical doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, and counselors. All of those professions provide unusual opportunities to help people, but also unusual access to vulnerable people and unusual opportunity to get beyond normal walls that most people erect, in order to prey on the vulnerable. Another thing – all of those professions provide opportunities for unscrupulous people to instill in others vulnerabilities they didn’t have when they first sought help. They also provide opportunities for unscrupulous people to set up situations in which they are in control and the people seeking help are less able than normal to either give or deny informed, rational consent. Sometimes, with some people, the unscrupulous “helpers” can set up situations in which it is virtually impossible for their victims to give genuine consent.
It is a good thing for former victims to look back and understand how they came to be victimized, and what part they may have played in it, if any. Doing so can facilitate closure and can strengthen them against the possibility of future, similar victimization. It is NOT a good thing for people to jump into every discussion about unscrupulous, manipulative, deceitful, scum-of-the-earth professional abusers, masquerading as “ministers” or “men of God,” and point out the so-called “sin” of their victims. There probably was some of that, in some cases. But even if every woman in the world threw themselves at those scum-balls, they had no excuse. Many, if not most, of the women did (have an excuse) AT THAT TIME, as did many, if not most of the other victims of TWI ministerial abuse. If they were to now fall victim to the same sort of abuse, then they would have a greater degree of culpability. (“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”) Even so, that would not remove one tiny bit of the culpability of the sorry bastards that prey on those they purport to help.
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LG
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oldiesman
Sure it does.
I am not a proponent of wound addiction and nobody has to let Wierwille's misdeeds (or anyone else's) influence their life and have so much power over them that they can't function without mentioning it endlessly. That's why the bible mentions forgiveness and other goodies.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
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LG
No, you’re not a proponent of wound addiction, Oldiesman. You’re a proponent of excusing the people who caused the wounds. You’re a proponent of shifting blame, by repeatedly propounding the notion that many, if not most, of the wounds were self-inflicted. You’re a proponent of the notion that people shouldn’t discuss Wierwille’s predatory ways, that he taught to others, that have been causing new wounds continually for thirty or more years and are still causing fresh wounds to be inflicted on current TWI people today. You’re a proponent of saying that Jesus was a backbiting liar (read Matthew 23). Concerning the ongoing nature of Wierwille’s “child of hell” ministry, reread verse 15.
Now, if the only thing people do is to bitch about something that happened 20 years ago and use it as an excuse to not live well now, then they’ve given Wierwille’s wickedness too much power over their lives and failed to take the responsibility for living their own lives now. I haven’t seen anyone do that. I have seen someone (you) repeatedly opening some people’s old wounds and hindering the healing of other people’s fresher wounds. That really is about all you accomplish. You claim to believe the Bible. Sometime, you ought to make an effort to understand the heart of the Bible, particularly of Jesus.
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Tom Strange
OM said:
I say this with all sincerity, that's easy for you to say, you've never lived through what they have. Again, I implore you to have a little compassion... understand that there is no way in heaven or he11 that you or I will ever be able to understand what they have gone through... it's a mistake from the get-go to think you can...Link to comment
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Tom Strange
LG said:
Me either. I've seen people relate their real life stories. I've seen people 'shout from the rooftops' about veepee and his gang... I haven't seen anyone 'wallowing in self pity'... they have nothing to 'self pity' about... they are blameless... they are victims... and they're trying to help others from becoming so... IMOLink to comment
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simpleton
It would be so much easier if the victims recognized that they were being victimized at the time. Then they wouldn't be "victims" and could be called guilty, willing participants in the evil doings "for God's sake".
I'm glad God is tender, merciful, kind and looks on the heart. I'm also glad that after the return there will be no more tears, no more pain and no more abuse.
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Goey
Oldies,
Do you know of anyone who "can't function mentally " without harping on VPW's misdeeds?
Sure, there are those people who will remain "perpetual victims" but these are the exceptions rather than the rule. You are taking a small and non-representative sample and attempting to apply to the whole.
Even if someone did take a few moments each day to wail about VPW's misdeeds here at GS, that is not indicitive of an "inability to function mentally."
I could lay a similar charge against you. That you "can't function mentally" without blame-shifting and pointing out the sins of those that VPW wounded. However, even though it's probably closer to the truth than your charge, it would be the same logical fallacy that you used. So I won't do it.
I give you the benefit of the doubt you can "function mentally" outside of GS and that you don't spend all your waking hours blame-shifting and defending VPW/TWI-1 by tearing down folks that they harmed.
I assume that your blame-shifting and defensness of VPW is not consuming your life so much that you can't mentally function without doing it. Am I right or wrong?
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oldiesman
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
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washingtonweather
Oldies and John, when I read your posts':
What I see, is the idea that the followers had to be more perfect than the leaders in your eyes.
what I see, is the idea that people should not have wanted leaders in the first place...consequently it is thier fault they were duped.
What I see is the idea that the tail is supposed to wag the dog.
What kind of understanding of human nature and the abuses of that very nature is that?
As I said on the "no authority" thread, the idea completely ignores the complexities of human psychology.
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oldiesman
Regarding having compassion, I can't stress this enough, but again I'll mention, that this website is available to post opinions. If folks can't take certain opinions I have without getting hurt (I think that's bogus, but assuming it's there), then perhaps one shouldn't, as they say, stay in the kitchen. I would LOVE for some posters to take a breather from their perpetual condemnational finger pointing of Wierwille's misdeeds and think from other perspectives. Some won't do it, refuse to, some even cite scripture as their justification. Ok fine. But those words hurt folks who read them, many of them who never post.
Ok, assuming then that posts hurt folks, maybe we should all have some compassion and should all be quiet? maybe that's the answer...
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
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Zixar
Well let's try that, shall we?
...Hitler just suffered from "little man" syndrome, which is why he was such a bully. The Jews should just get over it.
...Jeffrey Dahmer just happened to want a snack.
...Imelda Marcos was saving up shoes for the needy.
Excuse me while I go puke.
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Tom Strange
OK OM... my point is that we (you and I) are not women. "We" will never know. Nothing you or I could've gone through would or could compare... unless you were sexually abused and violated by another male (which I don't think you were, or you wouldn't have this viewpoint)...
I believe that most of the condemnational finger pointing is more "responsive" than "perpetual"... I'm thinking that if you'd allow these folks to "say their piece" without arguing with them or condemning them, they wouldn't be posting over and over... there would be a telling, that's it...Link to comment
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LG
Think from other perspectives? What the heck do you think people (except a few) are doing? Many once thought of Wierwille as “THE Man of God” and now don’t think of him as even a godly man. Some thought that any criticism, or even any hint of “thinking evil” of “THE Man of God” was wrong, possibly a sign of being possessed by “devil spirits.” Some were horribly used by Wierwille and blamed themselves for years, because it couldn’t have been “THE Man of God’s” fault. Now they realize that it WAS the man of fraud’s fault. That’s a huge change in perspective. YOU are the one who hasn’t changed perspective. You are still doing the same sorts of things to justify abuse, licentiousness, dishonesty, and hypocrisy (they’re not the same) that TWI did, and apparently still does.
Why does Wierwille matter? Because he started the abusive organization, formulated and taught a doctrine that fostered ministerial abuse, centralized authority, and structured the whole organization in such a manner as to remove accountability from the top levels and reduce it in the mid-levels. He taught others, by word and example, not only how to abuse, but that it was their right to do it and their followers’ responsibility to submit to it.
Why is it important for people to realize the extent of Wierwille’s culpability, not only in his own actions, but also in the rampant abuse that continued and continues long after his death? Because people who think that Wierwille was a great man of God and Martindale (or whoever) screwed things up are still vulnerable to the same sorts of abuse, as long as the abuser is as slick as Wierwille, rather than as clumsy as Martindale.
This is “About The Way.” It’s not “About blaming others in order to protect our precious memories of our hero.”
The kitchen could get hotter, Oldiesman. If you can't stand the heat...
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oldiesman
Tom
I too know what it's like to be hurt, abused and wounded, and when it comes to posting, I believe there shouldn't be any untouchable gender-based sacred cows commanding greater victim status than others. As Excathedra would say: ROF "laughing my a$$ off"Sometimes I think GS is like a soap opera. You know, like leaving it for months, come back, and one is exactly where they left off. Try it. Come back in 6 months and see if there's any lull in the relentless one-sided condemnation of Wierwille and twi.
Must be something in the nature of man to want to perpetually crush and pulverize a dead horse.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
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Tom Strange
maybe so... but LG does have a point as well...
and for the record... I don't consider it a "gender specific sacred cow"... I consider it something that I personally will never know (ginosko) about...
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Raf
Oldiesman,
Some of us do write about, and post about, other things. That's what Tom was trying to say.
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LG
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oldiesman
Ok fine. But then there's the new poster, Wonder 1, whose post, a momentarily varying reprise and opinion, was promptly carved up and cubed like diced ham.
Oops, I should not distract from the task at hand, the warnings about twi evildoers.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
P.S. could someone PLEASE instruct me how I may have the above magnificent quote added to my posts without retyping it all the time?
Pretty please? Garth ol' buddy?
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Steve!
Click on "Go", "My Space", "Profile", "Edit Profile", and then type it into your "Signature" box. You can include bold, italics, etc, if you know how.
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rascal
Oldies you are are liar...nobody has said anything ugly to wonder...only polite responses to the question asked....
Just like you cannot post the name of one poster (yoas YOu have said) who really believes that we women are mindless perpetual victim wanna be`s....yet you are perpetually saying that is our mindset...
Just like you call us liars ...but you won`t specifically say who is telling which particular lie....
You are constantly accusing folks here of mind sets that aren`t ours...or of saying things we haven`t....or assigning mindsets that are not ours....
All you DO here is point fingers and falsly accuse, because what we say makes it blatantly obvious that wierwille twi and his handpicked leaders are not what they portrayed themselves to be........
You are one nasty customer....
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oldiesman
Thanks Steve. The italics didn't work, that's ok.
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