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Eagle
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WW: Good point, except that if someone's behavior is "descended" from the devil, this is more binding than if their behavior is descended from the first camper, the first cattle-rustler,

the first musician,

the first metalsmith.

I mean, the devil is a spirit; pure evil at that. If I'm descended from a musician, I can still be a good person sometimes, but if I'm descended from the devil, figuatively or not, this is a more malignant condition, no?

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I agree that it's more meaningful. I think the question at hand is whether it's more literal.

I don't believe in an incorruptible "seed of the devil" in the same vein as Christ in you. I think people are the children of the devil when they follow his example. I don't think it was ever intended to be viewed as unchangable seed, and it is never presented as the "unforgivable sin" of the gospels. The connection is only made by extrapolation, in my view.

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GSG:

Yes, you have to substantiate that the devil has to be omnicient and omnipresent in order to give "seed", of which he cannot create or give. He can only take seed. This means he steals from within the creation itself.

The Bible does substantiate God's omnicient and omnipresent power, the fact he gives seed, and the fact that by this spritual seed people are born again of him and are children of him.

To believe that the devil can get people "born again" of him makes the devil equal with God. To believe that the devil or devil spirits can possess a born again Christian with holy spirit within puts the holy spirit as well as the believer in subjection to the devil, making the devil more powerful than God.

Only TWI and some offshoots believes both of these doctrines and only a few or a handful of fringe charismatic Christian groups believes Christians can be possessed.

This is an important and critical part of Christian doctrine that TWI has most certainly perverted.

If people want to believe this, then believe it. Those that put that kind of thinking behind them will have an easier time growing spiritually and have less paranoia in their spiritual lives.

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quote:
To believe that the devil can get people "born again" of him makes the devil equal with God. To believe that the devil or devil spirits can possess a born again Christian with holy spirit within puts the holy spirit as well as the believer in subjection to the devil, making the devil more powerful than God.

That's quite a jump in logic to take. Just because there are children of the devil does not make the devil equal to God any more than there are a lot of creeps out there who are fathers of illegitimate children make them equal to men of moral integrity. Being a father just means someone is a male - it doesn't make one male equal or less equal to any other male. The devil doesn't have to be equal, omnicient, omnipresent or anything else in order to give seed - he just has to be male.

There is a group of people (typically feminists) who want to put forth the arguement God is not male. They have a difficult time accepting and dealing with that concept mainly because most of them have an extremely poor (or non-existant) relationship with their earthly father. They haven't put forth the argument of the devil not being male to the same degree, but apparently the same erroneous mentality has crept over the border line and entered into the "so-called" Christian church.

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So, Biblefan, the fact that we ALL were children of disobedience, what happens there? Guess it's seed, right, and we're all unredeemable.

Oh, contrare, my dear Evan. Your logic escapes me. When it mentions specific entities to which people are children of, such as child of God or children of the devil, the object is the parent, where the seed originated from. Disobedience is a trait or characteristic or act. It OBVIOUSLY cannot have seed. Thus, it would read literally the children of those who were disobedient. By putting as children of disobedience, the emphasis is not on the people who were disobedient but the actions or traits of those people. If someone said Prince William was born of wealth, it doesn't mean two British pounds rubbed together and, wola, out came Henry. One must pay attention to the object association with children of, or born of.

If it was impossible for the devil to have seen, why did God say that he would put enmity and thy seed and her seed. In Genesis 3:15, it mentions the serpent's seed, thus it must be available.

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I think originally the half hour segment on seed of the serpent was in PFAL session 7 or 8, but was taken out because too many people, after listening to the segment, thought they themselves might be born of the wrong seed. Even on GSC apparently the concept is too too radical.

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"I think originally the half hour segment on seed of the serpent was in PFAL session 7 or 8, but was taken out because too many people, after listening to the segment, thought they themselves might be born of the wrong seed. Even on GSC apparently the concept is too too radical."

hahahhaahahhahahhahhhhhha~~~ whoops forgive me my laughter, i was just relaxing in a lounge chair when i changed the radio station hhhahahahahahahah... oh that is so fn fn funny ~~~

Thanks johniam, you have brightened my day

Oh i so still laugh

thanks again johniam

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What The Hay

GS Regular

posted November 08, 2004 11:35

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To believe that the devil can get people "born again" of him makes the devil equal with God. To believe that the devil or devil spirits can possess a born again Christian with holy spirit within puts the holy spirit as well as the believer in subjection to the devil, making the devil more powerful than God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's quite a jump in logic to take. Just because there are children of the devil does not make the devil equal to God any more than there are a lot of creeps out there who are fathers of illegitimate children make them equal to men of moral integrity. Being a father just means someone is a male - it doesn't make one male equal or less equal to any other male. The devil doesn't have to be equal, omnicient, omnipresent or anything else in order to give seed - he just has to be male.

There is a group of people (typically feminists) who want to put forth the arguement God is not male. They have a difficult time accepting and dealing with that concept mainly because most of them have an extremely poor (or non-existant) relationship with their earthly father. They haven't put forth the argument of the devil not being male to the same degree, but apparently the same erroneous mentality has crept over the border line and entered into the "so-called" Christian church.

A wise man will be the master of his mind. A fool WILL BE ITS SLAVE!!! dig it

~~~

Oh my I am falling out my lounge chair such a laughter~~~ whops have i said something like a fool ? Does God have a prick, or am i misunderstanding something ?

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"Yes, you have to substantiate that the devil has to be omnicient and omnipresent in order to give "seed", of which he cannot create or give. He can only take seed. This means he steals from within the creation itself."

I am sure the devil acknowleges your understanding a multi billion old being~~~ eh?

oh hahahahahahah

ahh forgive me ya'll talk beyound my understandin and Other Stuff

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What the Hay:

Hardly a jump in logic. It IS logic. To think these ways about the devil makes you think higher about the devil than he really is.

I am informing people here, that this TWI doctrine must go. It is like hanging on to a rotting trash heap.

But those that want to believe it will believe it. You may find excuses in the Word for it, but no sound doctrinal backup. If you give up anything from TWI, it is the devil spirit field they taught about.

The doctrine was and is completely and utterly bogus and fake.

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Originally posted by Eagle:

Hardly a jump in logic. It _IS_ logic.

QUOTE]

No. It's not.

What is your premise, adn what conclusion do you draw from it? As best as I can tell, your argument is:

God is omniscient and omnipresent.

God has children.

Therefore, if the Devil has children, he must be omniscient and omnipresent.

Non sequitur.

If you feel the idea of the Devil having seed is unscriptural, fine. But don't try to make up reasons. Equality with God is not a prerequisite for fatherhood.

George

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GSG:

You missed the point entirely. I did not say the devil had children. You did. I am saying I disagree with the fact that he can other than to have children as a figure of speech.

I believe you know what I explained. You certainly put a spin on it. Fact still remains, the devil is not God, cannot get people born of him or born again of him, and cannot possess a born again spirit-filled Christian, and is not omnicient and not omnipresent.

Oh well, at least I know how people feel about this. That was the object of the thread.

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God

God loves you my dear friends

Lets talk about the seed of the devil or what it may be.

The words “Children of the devil” is used in John 8:44 but how are they children of the devil

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Lets think back Adam was born son of God and God began to raise Adam with love but the devil trick Adam unto following him

I would say that the devil kidnap Adam and he lived by the flesh from then on which is what the devil is

Adam was created in the image of God but the devil was created in the image of flesh

Now Adam had a flesh side and an spirit side but his spirit image die and he live with an dead spiritual image but an living flesh image

Yes Adam became only that which can be seen and not longer greater than flesh kind but less than because he lost his leadership and past it over to the devil

Now some say animals can not live forever but I never read that but for them to rise after death it must be in the image of flesh

Spirit rises spirit and flesh rises flesh

But lets move on

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Did we once walk in darkness and is not the devil being called darkness but there are many verses on darkness and here are a few

John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

John 1246 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Turn us from being children of darkness unto children of light

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Cast off the fleshly things and put on the spiritual things

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

What fellowship have children of the devil with children of light

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Once you were children of darkness but now you are children of light

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Yes we wrestle against the image of the dead spirit we were in the past the image of fleshly things

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

There are many verses on darkness to help us understand

Here more to think about in the Old Testament the children that long after God were over shower by the light of God

This was like a show were there is a spot light the actor is lighted by the spot light but the actor can walk out side the spot light and the more distance he gets from it the less people can see him

In O.T. they were dark inside with light of God over showering them and they were clean from outside in but we are clean from inside out

I would say children of God were kidnap by the devil until they call God to free them

But in O.T. they would go back to live with their kidnaper the devil Now God free them with holy spirit upon them

Now today we are free by Jesus Christ

now we can still call the fleshly side of darkness but we can never be kidnap again

just some thinking on this subject

with love and an holy kiss Roy

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I followed the opening lines of your post, 2027, and I think I agree.

Biblefan & others. Nothing you offer as "proof" comes close to confirming that people are "born of the wrong seed". Your looking through glasses that got dipped in some seriously tainted tint. Satan has no such power or ability.

"in him is the life, and his life was the light of men". Satan cannot impart life. Period. He is not a god, he is a created being.

Also teh Way's wacky bible literalism does great damage to perfectly understandable scriptures. And rationaization. And through it you come up with born of the wrong seed, or Wierwiiles unbelieveable exegesis of John 1:1

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Again, I ask, "Who cares?" Does it matter if people are "born of the wrong seed" vs. just plain evil? What does it help to know if it's literal or not?

I'm born again. I'm going to heaven and I can spot evil (most of the time) and I can make choices that keep me out of trouble. Beyond that I don't care if the anti-christ in the cube next to me is truly born again of the devil's spirit. All I need to know is to watch my back around him and to deal very carefully with him.

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1. Strangely, I believe this because of the words kakourgi and lestai in the gospels.

2. Never could see this.

3: This always bothered me, because it gets people thinking about the devil and not God and if it really exists, why are we teaching the hows and whys?

4. I believe Christians can be oppressed. But Christ who has defeated the devil cannot be controlled by Satan.

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quote:
Originally posted by TheEvan:

Biblefan & others. Nothing you offer as "proof" comes close to confirming that people are "born of the wrong seed". Your looking through glasses that got dipped in some seriously tainted tint. Satan has no such power or ability.

"in him is the life, and his life was the light of men". Satan cannot impart life. Period. He is not a god, he is a created being.


Perhaps you or Eagle could explain why you believe that to have seed someone (or something) must be God. I've got plenty of seed and no illusions of Godhood.

And, incidentally, Satan IS the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4).

George

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I do not hold the view that in order to have seed, the devil must be equal to God.

I do hold to the belief that there is no category of human beings that God cannot save. There is no class of people who "sold out" to the devil in a way that makes true repentance and salvation unavailable to them. They may not take advantage of it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't available.

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Good question. I believe I've already answered it:

quote:
They may not take advantage of it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't available.

Let me turn the tables on you:

If someone who was once "born of the wrong seed" recognizes his error and turns to Christ and confesses Romans 10:9,10, SHALT he be saved or not?

Using the principle of difficult verses being interpreted in light of the clear: it is clear in the Bible that ANYONE who comes to Christ will be saved by him (would you like me to list the verses?). This one verse, which you cite, is the difficult one to be interpreted in light of those clear ones.

I'd like to spend some more time studying that verse before delving into a satisfactory answer. In the meantime, please consider my question.

Edited by Raf
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