I'm not dodging you. I just have had a 15 hour, 17 hour and 14 hour workdays and I have to work at least 8 hours today, Sunday. Then I have family responsibilities like mow the lawn rake the leaves and clean out the garage. Then I have business responsibilities like do my billing before I forget the details. I hope you understand that I want to get back to this thread and put in my two cents. If I can make some time today, I'll get back on and post my responses.
No, I wouldn't think of neglecting you all. I think that it is obvious to all that this subject has struck a nerve in a lot of people. As such it is a subject crying out for clarification. That is something that I gravitate to and it pains me that my work schedule has gone mad this week.
There are many here who do understand, and who have benefited from your candor.
I often wonder if those who are the most vocal about wanting folks to forgive and shut up ....are simply uncomfortable with the stark reality of what was endured...and what it says about those wom perpetrated that abuse.
Acknowledging the evil opens a whole new set of problems to be addressed.... maybe, folks get mad because they would rather forget so they won`t have to alter their comfortable little world.
George, I will consider your reasoning, and apreciate your reasoning, but still do not understand how that would negate luke.
QUOTE]
Rascal, maybe I don't understand what you are reading in Luke. I believe your argument is that Luke 17:3,4 is somehow a directive NOT to forgive someone UNLESS he repents. (In other words, forgive someone ONLY if he repents.) That's not what those verses say. Am I misinterpreting your argument?
Research Geek, I think you have realised "are you ready for this" as a question to your self.
Posts: 1914 | Location: A1A, Fl, USA | Registered: June 17, 2002
Research Geek
posted October 31, 2004 09:12
Hi songremainsthesame,
I'm not dodging you. I just have had a 15 hour, 17 hour and 14 hour workdays and I have to work at least 8 hours today, Sunday. Then I have family responsibilities like mow the lawn rake the leaves and clean out the garage. Then I have business responsibilities like do my billing before I forget the details. I hope you understand that I want to get back to this thread and put in my two cents. If I can make some time today, I'll get back on and post my responses.
Sure Reaserch Geek ya have the time to answer that you are not dodging my question.
My question still remains the same..."Do you have right hand fellowship with Reverend John Shoyer? When ever you are not living your lie whoops life and ya got the time for a skin bracer and a cup o coffee~~~ jeesh ya must be the only one living a life 24 seven eh?
Do you have right hand fellowship Reverend John Shroyer? it's just a simple question ~~~ obviously you need the time to answer beyond a 24 7 your life and your thread... kewl
I'm not sure it's so much a form of forgiveness, perhaps it is simply a letting go of the hurt, anger, etc. I think there is a difference.
...I think it is healthy to let go of the hurt and anger, though each individual has to vent, grieve, and heal in their own time. But letting go of the negative emtions doesn't necessarily have to be equated with forgiveness or with forgetting.
Abigail, I was referring to a definition of forgiveness posted earlier on this thread. If you believe there is a difference between "letting go..." and forgiveness, can you cite a better definition, or at least clarify your reasons?
Few of us truly understand "forgiveness," or other common words which may be defined, but must be intuitively apprehended to be understood.
You may be drawing a distinction between "letting go..." etc, and your misapprehension of the meaning of forgiveness. I think most people do. I also believe it's the most common obstacle to realizing true forgiveness.
One of the loftiest, yet most essential concepts introduced by Jesus Christ, and one of the most foundational tenents of first-century Christianity is forgiveness.
What is lofty about it?
It a) undeniably is one of the most difficult teachings of Jesus to attain, but b)also is undeniably one of the most healing in its effects.
Chapter and verse?
My question to you is are you ready to try some forgiveness? What you say, shall I let them off the hook?
You might be talking about absolution or reconciliation, both of which pertain to "hooks," figuratively speaking. What does forgiveness have to do with letting them "off the hook?"
They are impenitent still so they do not deserve it!
An aside: aren't we commanded to forgive as we have been forgiven? - which is to say, we repented first, and then received forgiveness. Is man's "forgiveness" held to a higher standard (of grace) than God's?
But consider who gets the most benefits from forgiveness. Does the forgiver or the offender benefit the most?
Which benefits are you referring to? Stress reduction? Stuff like that?
So I ask, is anyone ready for some forgiveness? Is it not true that Job was not healed until he could bring himself to pray for his friends? Is it not true that Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and to love them. Was Jesus nuts, or did he have our best interests in mind? Consider what forgiveness may bring to you. Does anyone want to talk about this?
Jesus' true meaning was changed or lost long ago. Our standard interpretation of what remains probably is nuts. Anyone who tries too hard to follow that interpretation risks becoming nuts as well.
When you begin a discussion like this, shouldn't you define your terms at the outset?
Just my opinion, but you'd be a little more accessible if you turned off the man 'o God rhetoric around here. Your post reads a little like sermon notes.
quote:I also am thinking about the silent majority who have read this thread but not posted: our beloved lurkers. If just one of them gets healed, it was worth it.
hi lurkers ? anyone healed ?
also, if you're a lurker, i think you get the idea this place is about working through past bull...., not being afraid to say what really happened in the way ministry even under "Dr. Wierwille" and why it's good to talk about it and get over our cult heads
how does shroyers group feel about "Dr. Wierwille" may i ask ? all is forgiven ? :)-->
I'm in with rascal and satori and others on this one. Tell us your point of view, we would be interested. Preach to us about "the truth," and I think you will have lost the attention of many of us.
And your posts up to now, to me, sound like you are ready to preach.
Abigail, I was referring to a definition of forgiveness posted earlier on this thread. If you believe there is a difference between "letting go..." and forgiveness, can you cite a better definition, or at least clarify your reasons?"
Satori,
I must have missed that definition in my reading/scanning of the many posts in this thread.
For me, forgiving has to do with understanding. I have no difficulty forgiving my children, for example, because I understand the causes of the behaviors which need forgiveness. I can even forgive my ex-husband for the verbal and physical abuse, because I understand the emotions behind it and the upbringing he had.
The powers that be in TWI, LCM et al. I don't understand. I have not found a motive behind what they have done which is understandable and/or forgiveable. Perhaps if I knew them in a more face to face relationship instead of the more disengaged and objectified one, I might be able to see a series of causes and effects which would lead to their "bad behaviors" which I could find understandable and forgiveable. But that is not the case.
However, I can (and have) let go of the fear, hurt, and anger which was once so much a part of my life after I left TWI and learned what was going on behind the scenes. Additionally, I have no burning need for revenger or restitution. I tend to lean toward karma and believing that what goes around comes around and a poetic justice will be served at some point in time, but it is not something I feel a need to participate in or concern myself with and if that poetic justice never came to be, it really makes no difference to me.
Restitution is impossible. There is no way to regain what is lost so it is better to simply grieve and move on, taking with me the knowledge that despite it all and more likely because of it all, I am a stronger and better person now than I was four or five years ago.
The powers that be in TWI, LCM et al. I don't understand. I have not found a motive behind what they have done which is understandable and/or forgiveable.
Isnt that kind of the reason why we forgive tho, is because what someone done was wrong. I understand what the motivation was. It was power and control. It was self serving from the top.
This was the motive that "inspired the doctrine."
your comment:
Restitution is impossible. There is no way to regain what is lost so it is better to simply grieve and move on, taking with me the knowledge that despite it all and more likely because of it all, I am a stronger and better person now than I was four or five years ago.
I dont know about that either abby. If you swim downstream all your life you never get any muscles.
I don’t know, Sky4it. Abigail’s comment, “… taking with me the knowledge that despite it all and more likely because of it all, I am a stronger and better person now…â€, that comment is something I can relate too.
There is a lot of strength to be gained in fighting for your sanity, staying afloat amidst the reproof and corrections, simply surviving what could very well have drown me.
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Research Geek
Hi songremainsthesame,
I'm not dodging you. I just have had a 15 hour, 17 hour and 14 hour workdays and I have to work at least 8 hours today, Sunday. Then I have family responsibilities like mow the lawn rake the leaves and clean out the garage. Then I have business responsibilities like do my billing before I forget the details. I hope you understand that I want to get back to this thread and put in my two cents. If I can make some time today, I'll get back on and post my responses.
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rascal
Glad to hear that you haven`t blown us off as not worth your time or attention......lol
Your courtesy of considering our posts and replying has not gone unnoticed.
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Research Geek
No, I wouldn't think of neglecting you all. I think that it is obvious to all that this subject has struck a nerve in a lot of people. As such it is a subject crying out for clarification. That is something that I gravitate to and it pains me that my work schedule has gone mad this week.
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rascal
Thanks Geek, I know that you are adept at this, and look forward to your pov.
Your courtesy is apreciated in taking time to reply.
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rascal
Shelly, wafer not, n CW, by the way, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt:-)
George, I will consider your reasoning, and apreciate your reasoning, but still do not understand how that would negate luke.
Washington Weather, I understand your point, and tend to agree....place me in the *screwed* catagory at this time.
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excathedra
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rascal
hee hee poor geek has jumped in it right up to his neck in here....glad he appears to be a sport.
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excathedra
thanks sky4 but i know many who would beg to differ
:)-->
soooooo if you don't have anger, you don't need to forgive. is forgiveness equal to letting go of anger ?
i also would like to hear more about satori's thoughts especially when it comes to forgiving one's self
AND if i tell my story or give my opinion, does that mean i'm angry or looking for attention ? that's how people see me a lot of times
.
Edited by excathedraLink to comment
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rascal
Only by those few who don`t get it (((ex)))
There are many here who do understand, and who have benefited from your candor.
I often wonder if those who are the most vocal about wanting folks to forgive and shut up ....are simply uncomfortable with the stark reality of what was endured...and what it says about those wom perpetrated that abuse.
Acknowledging the evil opens a whole new set of problems to be addressed.... maybe, folks get mad because they would rather forget so they won`t have to alter their comfortable little world.
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excathedra
i don't know, it just doesn't seem that difficult
why, when i say what dr. wierwille did what he did to me, do i also have to say what i learned in pfal ?
ya got me....
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rascal
I think ya make em squirm mentally ex, if what you say is true...everything isn`t in such a nice neat tidy little package anymore.
Folks would rather believe you mistaken or at fault than to have to emerge from their comfy little cocoon, imo.
If one is to accept your account, one is forced to reevalute a whole life time of perception.
It is easier to try to make you a villain, and what happened all ok somehow.
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Vertical Limit
Pfal was the launching pad for the abuse.
I don't separate pfal from the abuse.
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GeorgeStGeorge
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
posted October 31, 2004 01:32
Research Geek, I think you have realised "are you ready for this" as a question to your self.
Posts: 1914 | Location: A1A, Fl, USA | Registered: June 17, 2002
Research Geek
posted October 31, 2004 09:12
Hi songremainsthesame,
I'm not dodging you. I just have had a 15 hour, 17 hour and 14 hour workdays and I have to work at least 8 hours today, Sunday. Then I have family responsibilities like mow the lawn rake the leaves and clean out the garage. Then I have business responsibilities like do my billing before I forget the details. I hope you understand that I want to get back to this thread and put in my two cents. If I can make some time today, I'll get back on and post my responses.
Sure Reaserch Geek ya have the time to answer that you are not dodging my question.
My question still remains the same..."Do you have right hand fellowship with Reverend John Shoyer? When ever you are not living your lie whoops life and ya got the time for a skin bracer and a cup o coffee~~~ jeesh ya must be the only one living a life 24 seven eh?
Do you have right hand fellowship Reverend John Shroyer? it's just a simple question ~~~ obviously you need the time to answer beyond a 24 7 your life and your thread... kewl
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Vertical Limit
ex... you don't have to say what you learned in pfal. My last post might have been miss interpreted.
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satori001
Abigail, I was referring to a definition of forgiveness posted earlier on this thread. If you believe there is a difference between "letting go..." and forgiveness, can you cite a better definition, or at least clarify your reasons?
Few of us truly understand "forgiveness," or other common words which may be defined, but must be intuitively apprehended to be understood.
You may be drawing a distinction between "letting go..." etc, and your misapprehension of the meaning of forgiveness. I think most people do. I also believe it's the most common obstacle to realizing true forgiveness.
Regards...
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satori001
Originally posted by Research Geek:
One of the loftiest, yet most essential concepts introduced by Jesus Christ, and one of the most foundational tenents of first-century Christianity is forgiveness.
What is lofty about it?
It a) undeniably is one of the most difficult teachings of Jesus to attain, but b)also is undeniably one of the most healing in its effects.
Chapter and verse?
My question to you is are you ready to try some forgiveness? What you say, shall I let them off the hook?
You might be talking about absolution or reconciliation, both of which pertain to "hooks," figuratively speaking. What does forgiveness have to do with letting them "off the hook?"
They are impenitent still so they do not deserve it!
An aside: aren't we commanded to forgive as we have been forgiven? - which is to say, we repented first, and then received forgiveness. Is man's "forgiveness" held to a higher standard (of grace) than God's?
But consider who gets the most benefits from forgiveness. Does the forgiver or the offender benefit the most?
Which benefits are you referring to? Stress reduction? Stuff like that?
So I ask, is anyone ready for some forgiveness? Is it not true that Job was not healed until he could bring himself to pray for his friends? Is it not true that Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and to love them. Was Jesus nuts, or did he have our best interests in mind? Consider what forgiveness may bring to you. Does anyone want to talk about this?
Jesus' true meaning was changed or lost long ago. Our standard interpretation of what remains probably is nuts. Anyone who tries too hard to follow that interpretation risks becoming nuts as well.
When you begin a discussion like this, shouldn't you define your terms at the outset?
Just my opinion, but you'd be a little more accessible if you turned off the man 'o God rhetoric around here. Your post reads a little like sermon notes.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
RG over THREE THOUSAND VIEWS~~~ and you honestly think you have to mow the lawn?
You KNEW the response your thread/title
would generate!!!
Continue mowing your lawn and cleaning out your garage of manipulation you acquired TWI...
AND if I might be so bold to gesture a one finger up ~~~ lourdy have the mercy your forgiveness you solicit
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
ahhh the attic now needs a buff
sure geek
garage sale
One Rev to the Other
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excathedra
also, if you're a lurker, i think you get the idea this place is about working through past bull...., not being afraid to say what really happened in the way ministry even under "Dr. Wierwille" and why it's good to talk about it and get over our cult heads
how does shroyers group feel about "Dr. Wierwille" may i ask ? all is forgiven ?
:)-->
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shazdancer
RG,
I'm in with rascal and satori and others on this one. Tell us your point of view, we would be interested. Preach to us about "the truth," and I think you will have lost the attention of many of us.
And your posts up to now, to me, sound like you are ready to preach.
Regards,
Shaz
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Abigail
"
Abigail, I was referring to a definition of forgiveness posted earlier on this thread. If you believe there is a difference between "letting go..." and forgiveness, can you cite a better definition, or at least clarify your reasons?"
Satori,
I must have missed that definition in my reading/scanning of the many posts in this thread.
For me, forgiving has to do with understanding. I have no difficulty forgiving my children, for example, because I understand the causes of the behaviors which need forgiveness. I can even forgive my ex-husband for the verbal and physical abuse, because I understand the emotions behind it and the upbringing he had.
The powers that be in TWI, LCM et al. I don't understand. I have not found a motive behind what they have done which is understandable and/or forgiveable. Perhaps if I knew them in a more face to face relationship instead of the more disengaged and objectified one, I might be able to see a series of causes and effects which would lead to their "bad behaviors" which I could find understandable and forgiveable. But that is not the case.
However, I can (and have) let go of the fear, hurt, and anger which was once so much a part of my life after I left TWI and learned what was going on behind the scenes. Additionally, I have no burning need for revenger or restitution. I tend to lean toward karma and believing that what goes around comes around and a poetic justice will be served at some point in time, but it is not something I feel a need to participate in or concern myself with and if that poetic justice never came to be, it really makes no difference to me.
Restitution is impossible. There is no way to regain what is lost so it is better to simply grieve and move on, taking with me the knowledge that despite it all and more likely because of it all, I am a stronger and better person now than I was four or five years ago.
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sky4it
abigail:
Your comment:
The powers that be in TWI, LCM et al. I don't understand. I have not found a motive behind what they have done which is understandable and/or forgiveable.
Isnt that kind of the reason why we forgive tho, is because what someone done was wrong. I understand what the motivation was. It was power and control. It was self serving from the top.
This was the motive that "inspired the doctrine."
your comment:
Restitution is impossible. There is no way to regain what is lost so it is better to simply grieve and move on, taking with me the knowledge that despite it all and more likely because of it all, I am a stronger and better person now than I was four or five years ago.
I dont know about that either abby. If you swim downstream all your life you never get any muscles.
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Shelly
I don’t know, Sky4it. Abigail’s comment, “… taking with me the knowledge that despite it all and more likely because of it all, I am a stronger and better person now…â€, that comment is something I can relate too.
There is a lot of strength to be gained in fighting for your sanity, staying afloat amidst the reproof and corrections, simply surviving what could very well have drown me.
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