"The moral of this story is that you never know what kind of pain another person may be in who is causing you problems."
And I might add-- to look beyond your own pain to see what is hurting someone else.
It wasn't until we understood how much pain he was in that we understood why I even today carry the scars of this cat on both my hands.
It was in this Jon and I learned many valuable lessons for ourselves. We haven't listed them all.
If you can learn something from what Jon chose to share with you, fine. If you can't, don't let it stop you from learning from the rest of what he said.
If after that, you still think we're trying to guilt you into forgiving someone, then, you are still missing the point and there ain't nothin I can do about it.
nevermind what i said. maybe the ash heap is not such a bad place after all. maybe the miry clay we so easily get stuck in feels good between our toes, kind of squishy.
but if you do choose to forgive and move on with your life, understand that forgiveness does not include falling for the same load of crap a la twi that was served you previously.
Hmmm ok, no address to the scriptures that state the offending brother is to repent first...I guess then that my answere to YOUR question is still not only no....but HE LL no.
So next question, does that brand me as somehow lacking as a christian or in spirituality?
Maybe not quite as good as some one else who piously espouses their forgiveness?
..."I have found personally, Shroyer to be very approachable and not offended to be asked hard questions about such things. Before I decided to attend a single meeting, I had a straight, no holds barred conversation with the man and told him I would not put up with being involved in a ministry that allowed abuse of any kind."...
Nice one CC. Cult people are always nice, how else would the love bombing go on so well to pull one through such hard questions that i am sure you have asked The Rev Shroyer~~~ did you know he marked and avoided "believers" whilst his rulership of Fla in which he said he was demoted.???
It's no personal beef with the Good Man of The Cloth who prophesied over my daughter, as you seem a fit to place 'pon me head.
He is certainly a man who rules his house and wife in good order. A jolly soul. I have no beef with the Good Man of The Cloth~~~ but just questions concerning obedience his rule over CFF as if it had nothing to do with TWI.
What were the hard questions you asked that so made you a believer that The Good Man of The Cloth has no intention of abuse?
So You and Geek do support CFF! Kewl~~~
Rok On
Song
No finger pointing except that which was spared the severence of those whom stood and against, and their fingers fell to the floor. I still have all my fingers to still knock a fine arrow.
You have a problem with John Shroyer? You know exactly how to find him, how to call him, email him, write him snail mail, etc.
In my personal opinion, he is a good man. He has lived his life, right or wrong, trying to do the will of the lord. You have something to discuss with him? DISCUSS IT WITH HIM.
If you need for him to CALL YOU, JUST LET ME KNOW. I don't communicate with him often, but I know he would take my call....he would take yours too.
Well well Research Geek, quite a moral of a story and many such words.
My question still stands, and if you answered it, then I have not seen your reply. All I know from memory is you were not dodging my questions because you had much to do. Kewl!
Do You Reasearch Geek have right hand fellowship with Reverend John Shroyer?
I hope not that I shall faint from breath before your chores allow you a moment of yeah or nay, eh!
You have a problem with John Shroyer? You know exactly how to find him, how to call him, email him, write him snail mail, etc.
In my personal opinion, he is a good man. He has lived his life, right or wrong, trying to do the will of the lord. You have something to discuss with him? DISCUSS IT WITH HIM.
If you need for him to CALL YOU, JUST LET ME KNOW. I don't communicate with him often, but I know he would take my call....he would take yours too.
radar
~~~~
Ahh radar are you trying to save my soul your defence a Good Man O the Cloth?
Have I not said he was good man!
And I certainly meant that since he laid hand 'pon my daughters head and held a word of esquiste prophecy. I love Rev John for that.
The Good Man o The Cloth, dear radar, has made his run after his emeritus status was given unto him throughout fla in which he once claimed to have been demoted. I can show you a list of people he has marked and avoided. And so hence I have heard his call many a TWIg Co. Meet. He was a gracious host for sure, no doubt!
I thinks he has a beef with TWI that he claims no knowlege to those who are asking.
So do I have a problem with this man you so have a problem with his good name to be tarnished by such a rogue as me?
You are a good man, I have never made so much as a mean or hard hearted comment toward you.
I am IN NO WAY associated with CFF, I don't financially support them, attend their fellowships, send anyone associated with them so much as a birthday card.
That said, I completely believe that John Shroyer is a good man, and does all he can to be a good minister. I have seen many sides to him, good, bad, ugly and indifferent. I believe that he is a good man, not that he has never made mistakes.
I do not personally know you song.....but over the years I have read your posts. All I am saying is that if you have something within you that you need to clarify/settle with John Shroyer.....it is my opinion, that he will be willing to talk it out with you. John is the kind of man that really, really, really, wants to do the right thing.
After all is said and done, doesn't that count for something? Two men (you and John,) two different points of view, trying to reconcile their differences?
I am in no way degrading you.....just hoping that there can be a resolution for you.
Ya know, to compare a feral cat with no understanding, one who inflicted pain due to misunderstanding and fear, to a serial adulterer, a rapist, and general all around scounderals, is mind boggeling.
These were men who claimed to work for God and then assaulted, robbed and deeply hurt the people whom they promised to guide....some unto death.
They with conscious malice, inflicted harm on God`s people, they did it because the sating of THEIR lusts was of more importance than their duty to the people placed in their care as ministers.....and YOU want to compare THAT ... the conscious desire to embrace evil, uncaring of the harm inflicted on inocent people, to a frightened feral cat with no understanding????
You are a good man, I have never made so much as a mean or hard hearted comment toward you.
I am IN NO WAY associated with CFF, I don't financially support them, attend their fellowships, send anyone associated with them so much as a birthday card.
That said, I completely believe that John Shroyer is a good man, and does all he can to be a good minister. I have seen many sides to him, good, bad, ugly and indifferent. I believe that he is a good man, not that he has never made mistakes.
I do not personally know you song.....but over the years I have read your posts. All I am saying is that if you have something within you that you need to clarify/settle with John Shroyer.....it is my opinion, that he will be willing to talk it out with you. John is the kind of man that really, really, really, wants to do the right thing.
After all is said and done, doesn't that count for something? Two men (you and John,) two different points of view, trying to reconcile their differences?
I am in no way degrading you.....just hoping that there can be a resolution for you.
Radar
Radar,
Since you have chosen to be a mediator between John & I, I respect your wish to reconcile such enigmas our views of TWI.
John has chosen to promote TWI because of all his indepth experinces said cult. He patterns after it with all respect his ordination TWI.
For him and I to even discuss any questions without public veiw, he knows as well as i, I would signing another green card.
I am also a fellow who is really really really TRYING to do the right thing. But I do not go about as a savior those left in the hurt of twi and also the one who has marked and avoided IN the same breath.
Believe me, I saw the list, most probably I saw the list before you ever dreamed of the list. While working in the trunk office, I might have even helped ASSEMBLE that damn list. I don't doubt the pain that all of the m&a caused. Last night, I had a nightmare about those days in my former life....it was creepy and included an infestation of cochroaches. I woke up this morning and rearranged my freaking bedroom and sewing room because of that dream.
John Shroyer has been gone from twi for nearly ten years. He has become a different person as hopefully, I have, and many of our fellow twi *** --- hole--- idiot, contemporaries.
My point in addressing you is just THAT. We have all moved on, changed, grown, hopefully, matured.
*Forgive* me. I was hoping to inspire you to personally handle this with a person you believe has wronged you. I am an idiot.....I have no business putting myself in your pain.
Radar
And another thing, that dream I had last night is nothing new. Just different in perspective. Shellon, Catcup and Rascal can probably remember a recurring dream I had right after I left twi....that I lived at Camp Gunnison and the twi safety dogs were constantly following me wanting to rip out my throat.
I might be opening up a pandora's box here but it wasn't only the "twig members" that were sacrificed and suffered as a result of twi. It was 99% of all of their followers, pfal grad to clergy that were totally B *** U *** TT F *** U *** CK ***ED.
Believe me, I saw the list, most probably I saw the list before you ever dreamed of the list. While working in the trunk office, I might have even helped ASSEMBLE that damn list. I don't doubt the pain that all of the m&a caused. Last night, I had a nightmare about those days in my former life....it was creepy and included an infestation of cochroaches. I woke up this morning and rearranged my freaking bedroom and sewing room because of that dream.
~~~~
Socks
posted November 07, 2004 18:03
Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I want to see the list.
I want El Listos. Listos El Grande. Show me La List. Le List. Li List. The List of Shame. The List of Rejection.
Give it to me, Song. Hard.
Show
the
list.
~~~
Well Socks, it seems to me, one has a list even ever before i was spanked being born. That's the list I thinks then those who had a desk to ponder such the fates of believers I would want to see! My list would be, I suppose less than the one who has fessed a list more might than mine!
Say on Radar
I'm just a guy who may have fallen 'pon your desk.
..."John Shroyer has been gone from twi for nearly ten years. He has become a different person as hopefully, I have, and many of our fellow twi *** --- hole--- idiot, contemporaries."
And so have I. I have learned to see Wolf N Wool.
TWIster Sisters, whoops, offshoots are turn the steak over on the grill. of course that is not a humble opinion. My az$ hole sings a different tune than the bread broken between those whose diet is the same TWI.
"My point in addressing you is just THAT. We have all moved on, changed, grown, hopefully, matured."
Radar, i am humbled the maturity your address.
May I move forward an advanced pace as you have obviously considered yourself. I always love the "WE". Hence, I shall follow your bread crumbs this forest floor and come upon the merriment and surety of the "WE".
Where does the trail, maze begin that I may sniff my way to the "WE"??
I wit the din my supposed beef with The Good Man O The Cloth would come forth this forum Grease Spot By Midnight Cafe and proclaim his justification CFF.
Have you heard that he told a certain person to sell her car because she could not afford the debt while he lived in a 200 thousand dollar home living off the tithes+%% beleivers he was a leader?
I guess that means we aren't going to see The List.
So be it. I guess, well. Dunno.
I'm very disappointed, Song. You've, well, you've kind of let me down here.
But you're forgiven.
:D--> :D--> :D-->
(you knew that was coming, right? c'mon, gimme at least a chuckle or two, it took awhile to set that up. I knew there wasn't going to A List, but at least, we got a laugh! This ain't easy, it looks easy but it ain't. Takes time, experience, skill and patience. Please, if you're watching - don't try this at home!)
"Awww, I don't get no respect, no respect. When I was born, the Doc, he spanked my mother! My Dad slapped him! He said 'Lemme do that!'...awww, I don't get no respect. No respect!"
Anybody else wondering if Research Geek and Catcup are trolls? They're like a tag-team. One starts a controversial and provocative topic, then virtually disapppears, the other becomes extremely defensive, then gets everybody riled up with insinuations, recriminations and denials...
Fiery darts are what they look like to me, zinging and whizzing back and forth, left and right, over and under...
And now almost everybody's outta fellowship (except for Oldiesman)! Let's ask, where's the profit? Hmm? Well, hmmm??
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"The moral of this story is that you never know what kind of pain another person may be in who is causing you problems."
And I might add-- to look beyond your own pain to see what is hurting someone else.
It wasn't until we understood how much pain he was in that we understood why I even today carry the scars of this cat on both my hands.
It was in this Jon and I learned many valuable lessons for ourselves. We haven't listed them all.
If you can learn something from what Jon chose to share with you, fine. If you can't, don't let it stop you from learning from the rest of what he said.
If after that, you still think we're trying to guilt you into forgiving someone, then, you are still missing the point and there ain't nothin I can do about it.
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oenophile
nevermind what i said. maybe the ash heap is not such a bad place after all. maybe the miry clay we so easily get stuck in feels good between our toes, kind of squishy.
but if you do choose to forgive and move on with your life, understand that forgiveness does not include falling for the same load of crap a la twi that was served you previously.
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rascal
Hmmm ok, no address to the scriptures that state the offending brother is to repent first...I guess then that my answere to YOUR question is still not only no....but HE LL no.
So next question, does that brand me as somehow lacking as a christian or in spirituality?
Maybe not quite as good as some one else who piously espouses their forgiveness?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
..."I have found personally, Shroyer to be very approachable and not offended to be asked hard questions about such things. Before I decided to attend a single meeting, I had a straight, no holds barred conversation with the man and told him I would not put up with being involved in a ministry that allowed abuse of any kind."...
Nice one CC. Cult people are always nice, how else would the love bombing go on so well to pull one through such hard questions that i am sure you have asked The Rev Shroyer~~~ did you know he marked and avoided "believers" whilst his rulership of Fla in which he said he was demoted.???
It's no personal beef with the Good Man of The Cloth who prophesied over my daughter, as you seem a fit to place 'pon me head.
He is certainly a man who rules his house and wife in good order. A jolly soul. I have no beef with the Good Man of The Cloth~~~ but just questions concerning obedience his rule over CFF as if it had nothing to do with TWI.
What were the hard questions you asked that so made you a believer that The Good Man of The Cloth has no intention of abuse?
So You and Geek do support CFF! Kewl~~~
Rok On
Song
No finger pointing except that which was spared the severence of those whom stood and against, and their fingers fell to the floor. I still have all my fingers to still knock a fine arrow.
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Radar OReilly
SONG!!!!
You have a problem with John Shroyer? You know exactly how to find him, how to call him, email him, write him snail mail, etc.
In my personal opinion, he is a good man. He has lived his life, right or wrong, trying to do the will of the lord. You have something to discuss with him? DISCUSS IT WITH HIM.
If you need for him to CALL YOU, JUST LET ME KNOW. I don't communicate with him often, but I know he would take my call....he would take yours too.
radar
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Well well Research Geek, quite a moral of a story and many such words.
My question still stands, and if you answered it, then I have not seen your reply. All I know from memory is you were not dodging my questions because you had much to do. Kewl!
Do You Reasearch Geek have right hand fellowship with Reverend John Shroyer?
I hope not that I shall faint from breath before your chores allow you a moment of yeah or nay, eh!
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Radar O'Reilly
I'm fine, really
posted November 07, 2004 16:31
SONG!!!!
You have a problem with John Shroyer? You know exactly how to find him, how to call him, email him, write him snail mail, etc.
In my personal opinion, he is a good man. He has lived his life, right or wrong, trying to do the will of the lord. You have something to discuss with him? DISCUSS IT WITH HIM.
If you need for him to CALL YOU, JUST LET ME KNOW. I don't communicate with him often, but I know he would take my call....he would take yours too.
radar
~~~~
Ahh radar are you trying to save my soul your defence a Good Man O the Cloth?
Have I not said he was good man!
And I certainly meant that since he laid hand 'pon my daughters head and held a word of esquiste prophecy. I love Rev John for that.
The Good Man o The Cloth, dear radar, has made his run after his emeritus status was given unto him throughout fla in which he once claimed to have been demoted. I can show you a list of people he has marked and avoided. And so hence I have heard his call many a TWIg Co. Meet. He was a gracious host for sure, no doubt!
I thinks he has a beef with TWI that he claims no knowlege to those who are asking.
So do I have a problem with this man you so have a problem with his good name to be tarnished by such a rogue as me?
Song
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Radar OReilly
Song,
You are a good man, I have never made so much as a mean or hard hearted comment toward you.
I am IN NO WAY associated with CFF, I don't financially support them, attend their fellowships, send anyone associated with them so much as a birthday card.
That said, I completely believe that John Shroyer is a good man, and does all he can to be a good minister. I have seen many sides to him, good, bad, ugly and indifferent. I believe that he is a good man, not that he has never made mistakes.
I do not personally know you song.....but over the years I have read your posts. All I am saying is that if you have something within you that you need to clarify/settle with John Shroyer.....it is my opinion, that he will be willing to talk it out with you. John is the kind of man that really, really, really, wants to do the right thing.
After all is said and done, doesn't that count for something? Two men (you and John,) two different points of view, trying to reconcile their differences?
I am in no way degrading you.....just hoping that there can be a resolution for you.
Radar
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rascal
Ya know, to compare a feral cat with no understanding, one who inflicted pain due to misunderstanding and fear, to a serial adulterer, a rapist, and general all around scounderals, is mind boggeling.
These were men who claimed to work for God and then assaulted, robbed and deeply hurt the people whom they promised to guide....some unto death.
They with conscious malice, inflicted harm on God`s people, they did it because the sating of THEIR lusts was of more importance than their duty to the people placed in their care as ministers.....and YOU want to compare THAT ... the conscious desire to embrace evil, uncaring of the harm inflicted on inocent people, to a frightened feral cat with no understanding????
Geeze, we ARE on different planets.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Song,
You are a good man, I have never made so much as a mean or hard hearted comment toward you.
I am IN NO WAY associated with CFF, I don't financially support them, attend their fellowships, send anyone associated with them so much as a birthday card.
That said, I completely believe that John Shroyer is a good man, and does all he can to be a good minister. I have seen many sides to him, good, bad, ugly and indifferent. I believe that he is a good man, not that he has never made mistakes.
I do not personally know you song.....but over the years I have read your posts. All I am saying is that if you have something within you that you need to clarify/settle with John Shroyer.....it is my opinion, that he will be willing to talk it out with you. John is the kind of man that really, really, really, wants to do the right thing.
After all is said and done, doesn't that count for something? Two men (you and John,) two different points of view, trying to reconcile their differences?
I am in no way degrading you.....just hoping that there can be a resolution for you.
Radar
Radar,
Since you have chosen to be a mediator between John & I, I respect your wish to reconcile such enigmas our views of TWI.
John has chosen to promote TWI because of all his indepth experinces said cult. He patterns after it with all respect his ordination TWI.
For him and I to even discuss any questions without public veiw, he knows as well as i, I would signing another green card.
I am also a fellow who is really really really TRYING to do the right thing. But I do not go about as a savior those left in the hurt of twi and also the one who has marked and avoided IN the same breath.
John is a contradiction his stand.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Radar,
Would you be willing to see the list of people The Good Man O Cloth Marked and Avoided?
SONG!
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Radar OReilly
So be it.
I was just adding my thoughts.
radar
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
So, I suppose you do not want to see the list, eh good mediator?
Well Radar~~~~~???
Addition is just that eh?
Exposure is another reality~~~
song
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Radar OReilly
Oh Song,
Believe me, I saw the list, most probably I saw the list before you ever dreamed of the list. While working in the trunk office, I might have even helped ASSEMBLE that damn list. I don't doubt the pain that all of the m&a caused. Last night, I had a nightmare about those days in my former life....it was creepy and included an infestation of cochroaches. I woke up this morning and rearranged my freaking bedroom and sewing room because of that dream.
John Shroyer has been gone from twi for nearly ten years. He has become a different person as hopefully, I have, and many of our fellow twi *** --- hole--- idiot, contemporaries.
My point in addressing you is just THAT. We have all moved on, changed, grown, hopefully, matured.
*Forgive* me. I was hoping to inspire you to personally handle this with a person you believe has wronged you. I am an idiot.....I have no business putting myself in your pain.
Radar
And another thing, that dream I had last night is nothing new. Just different in perspective. Shellon, Catcup and Rascal can probably remember a recurring dream I had right after I left twi....that I lived at Camp Gunnison and the twi safety dogs were constantly following me wanting to rip out my throat.
I might be opening up a pandora's box here but it wasn't only the "twig members" that were sacrificed and suffered as a result of twi. It was 99% of all of their followers, pfal grad to clergy that were totally B *** U *** TT F *** U *** CK ***ED.
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socks
Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I want to see the list.
I want El Listos. Listos El Grande. Show me La List. Le List. Li List. The List of Shame. The List of Rejection.
Give it to me, Song. Hard.
Show
the
list.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Radar O'Reilly
posted November 07, 2004 17:46
Oh Song,
Believe me, I saw the list, most probably I saw the list before you ever dreamed of the list. While working in the trunk office, I might have even helped ASSEMBLE that damn list. I don't doubt the pain that all of the m&a caused. Last night, I had a nightmare about those days in my former life....it was creepy and included an infestation of cochroaches. I woke up this morning and rearranged my freaking bedroom and sewing room because of that dream.
~~~~
Socks
posted November 07, 2004 18:03
Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I want to see the list.
I want El Listos. Listos El Grande. Show me La List. Le List. Li List. The List of Shame. The List of Rejection.
Give it to me, Song. Hard.
Show
the
list.
~~~
Well Socks, it seems to me, one has a list even ever before i was spanked being born. That's the list I thinks then those who had a desk to ponder such the fates of believers I would want to see! My list would be, I suppose less than the one who has fessed a list more might than mine!
Say on Radar
I'm just a guy who may have fallen 'pon your desk.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Oh where o where is the forgivness vs skeletons in the closet
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
..."John Shroyer has been gone from twi for nearly ten years. He has become a different person as hopefully, I have, and many of our fellow twi *** --- hole--- idiot, contemporaries."
And so have I. I have learned to see Wolf N Wool.
TWIster Sisters, whoops, offshoots are turn the steak over on the grill. of course that is not a humble opinion. My az$ hole sings a different tune than the bread broken between those whose diet is the same TWI.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
"My point in addressing you is just THAT. We have all moved on, changed, grown, hopefully, matured."
Radar, i am humbled the maturity your address.
May I move forward an advanced pace as you have obviously considered yourself. I always love the "WE". Hence, I shall follow your bread crumbs this forest floor and come upon the merriment and surety of the "WE".
Where does the trail, maze begin that I may sniff my way to the "WE"??
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I wit the din my supposed beef with The Good Man O The Cloth would come forth this forum Grease Spot By Midnight Cafe and proclaim his justification CFF.
Have you heard that he told a certain person to sell her car because she could not afford the debt while he lived in a 200 thousand dollar home living off the tithes+%% beleivers he was a leader?
Yes he is a good man.
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sky4it
Radar;
With all due respect, to adhere to old TWI doctrine is "chilling."
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
There is nothing old about twi doctrines sky4it,
the doctrines of cult are the same no matter the color rose they hold.
That is what really makes all due respects chilling!
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socks
Soooooo...
I guess that means we aren't going to see The List.
So be it. I guess, well. Dunno.
I'm very disappointed, Song. You've, well, you've kind of let me down here.
But you're forgiven.
(you knew that was coming, right? c'mon, gimme at least a chuckle or two, it took awhile to set that up. I knew there wasn't going to A List, but at least, we got a laugh! This ain't easy, it looks easy but it ain't. Takes time, experience, skill and patience. Please, if you're watching - don't try this at home!)
"Awww, I don't get no respect, no respect. When I was born, the Doc, he spanked my mother! My Dad slapped him! He said 'Lemme do that!'...awww, I don't get no respect. No respect!"
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satori001
Anybody else wondering if Research Geek and Catcup are trolls? They're like a tag-team. One starts a controversial and provocative topic, then virtually disapppears, the other becomes extremely defensive, then gets everybody riled up with insinuations, recriminations and denials...
Fiery darts are what they look like to me, zinging and whizzing back and forth, left and right, over and under...
And now almost everybody's outta fellowship (except for Oldiesman)! Let's ask, where's the profit? Hmm? Well, hmmm??
Don't feed the monster!
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