It all boils down to whether or not the other party repents, and asks, otherwise what we are offering is not really forgiveness....it`s just kind of a mental dissmissal on our part....
Come on, quit spouting platitudes long enough to think outside of the box for a miniute.
If people never forgave me, I'd be in a world of pain and suffering ALOT!
My forgiveness is selective and individual, however. I have no problem forgiving my children instantly and never thinking of it again. It was pretty easy to clear the air with a good friend yesterday, forgive each other and get on with our lives.
Realizing this is primarily TWI we are referring to, I forgave those that caused me pain. Why not? It's not worth my time and energy staying angry with them and they couldn't possibly give a crap anyway, so my anger is wasted.
Will people like TWI be able to get to me again? No freaking way, but life is too short to miss by spending time raging over them.
The only exception I have here is the death of my children's father. It's my firm belief that TWI contributed to his death. This is an area where I don't see the point in "forgiveness". It's beyond that and something that will never ever ever ever be remedied, I don't care if they apologized profusely till end of time.
So, maybe there is forgiveness, then there is foregiveness and then there might be something past that.
Either way, I have a life to live and I'm not going to waste the energy worrying about whether or not they want, need or give a crap about my feelings.
Nope, we did not recieve forgiveness untill we asked catcup....think about it...if forgiveness was automatically granted, folks then have no need to repent, change ...
Repentance and asking are required before we recieve.
I cannot believe that you can ignore such a basic spiritual principle.
quote:How bout you oldies, any thoughts as to why some folks in the bible were worthey of scorn and condemnation and others worthey of forgiveness?
Best I can come up with right now is, if they're worthy of scorn and condemnation, that's God's judgment and vengence; but if I follow Ephesians Chapter 4, there's no option there for me to keep scorning and condemning. I am asked not to keep that mindset but the precedent there is to forgive and be merciful. Also says to get rid of your wrath, before the sun goes down ...
This way seems to be more profitable and godly than having a mindset of scorn and condemnation.
Look at what Jesus said when they were killing him. Father forgive them ... wow what an example.
Forgiveness is forgiveness...whether God is granting it or us....
God requires us to repent and ask...
I will do no less.....as it is a disservice to the one forgiven to recieve without making the proper changes. Consequences are a major factor in reevaluating whether or not to continue harmfull behavior.
Do you all not see that this is a major factor in the exponential escalation of twi`s evil practices...NOBODY believed that they were required to repent first....so evil was allowed to run rampantly unchecked...
Repentance is required for the one being forgiven...or it just plain isn`t forgiveness.
Oldies, simply because I am unable to forgive, due to the offending parties refusal to repent....that in no way can be considered harboring wrath when the sun goes down....that is not applicable in this context.
Shoot, it`s not like I go to bed chanting the mantra *I hate wierwille*...lol
I have simply withheld that which is not mine to give, not untill the offending party meets the criteria that God in the scriptures has laid out, and that he requires of us.
I am able to do that and remain at complete peace, because I understand that the responsibility rests squarely on the shoulders of the offending party....when they have repented and asked for forgiveness, then I am required and will happily forgive....embracing them back into the center of God`s will :-).
God doesn't ask me to and I'm sure it's because it would be "impossible" to do, really. Sure, my memories have "softened" as time has gone on and I've been further away from them and their forms of abuse. I certainly wouldn't run back to them because I forgave them. I still think they are a corrupt, abusive, ego-centric organization and that's the complimentary part of what I think of them.
Just because I forgive them doesn't mean I want them to succeed with their mission, either. I think they should repent of their mistakes and either right themselves or fold. I'm not holding my breath for either to happen. I wish them no ill-will, just as I wish an "enemy" no ill-will. We just go our separate ways.
Rascal you ignore the sacrifice of God's only begotten Son.
Forgiveness was yours the moment he laid down his life for you... before you were even born.
It was not granted you because of any action on your part. You accepted Jesus as your Savior. You accepted him as your Saviour because you were helpless to save yourself. Forgiveness came with it because you ACCEPTED IT.
Not because of anything done by you at all.
That is why salvation and the forgiveness that came with it is of grace and not of works, lest you boast.
Why is it that it is only Wierwille and his 'walking by the flesh' that usually gets your scriptural whitewash--err, defense? I don't see you rising to the like defense of trinitarians when their doctrine is attacked, or political liberals (or conservatives) are attacked and derided with equal venom as your 'preciouosssss' VPW.
Tell me why that is, hmmm? ... Perhaps that is why some of us see your ((cough)) 'biblical' defense of VPW as pure whitewash bull.....
Catcup do NOT accuse me of ignoring the sacrafice of God`s son.
That offends me deeply.
We do not recieve that which he gave untill we repent and ask.....that is entirely different.
Did you read my words at all?? Have you honestly considered how unrepentance of sins and the instant *grace* belief allowed rampant evil in twi? Had we help vp to these standards scripturally required......he would have been required to repent (change) how many lives would have been spared?
As it was he went to his grave ...hurting people till the day he died...leaving the legacy of a ministry with people who carried the evil to ever greater hights.
Do you understand how insidious and evil it is to attempt to operate forgiveness in a way OTHER than that which it was set up by God?
If one doesn`t have to repent, they remain evil.
I think that is the biggest fault I find with a lot of extwi leaders and spin offs...they seem to be of the opinion of the evil practiced...Oh well...to bad so sad...get over it...It isn`t *MY* fault that you won`t forgive...yada yada remaining in victim mentality....yada yada....no responsibility ...no repentance ...no change and therefor still practicing evil.
Repentance is required or it does the offender no good.
The only exception I have here is the death of my children's father. It's my firm belief that TWI contributed to his death. This is an area where I don't see the point in "forgiveness". It's beyond that and something that will never ever ever ever be remedied, I don't care if they apologized profusely till end of time.
So, maybe there is forgiveness, then there is foregiveness and then there might be something past that.
Interesting point Shellon I often wonder what it was like for the saints in the early church to see Paul who had consented to the death of some of their family and friends.
But to refute the sacrifice of God's son, and the blood that he spilled to cleanse you of your sins while you were at enmity with God just might be offensive to God.
Tell me now, is your salvation of works or of grace?
My bible reads that I was at enmity with God, and while in that state, He sacrificed His only begotten Son in order that I might be cleansed and forgiven.
How that offends you, I know not. How you can refute that God extended this grace to you in an unclean state, I know not.
Otherwise, we don't need a Savior.
Now, I still stand by my original posts. You might find my position agrees with you on some points if you would read it.
Geek plans on answering the questions you posed to him and will do it when he has a chance. You pose good questions and they will get good answers.
I will allow him to answer those questions, because I don't have time to spend all day digging the answers up and posting them on this site like I did one day this week already.
Both of us went out and got a life after we left TWI, and have obligations outside this site that requrire our attention in order to make a living and enjoy the life we went out and got.
I think people get hung up on the difference between forgive and absolve. Some who preach forgiveness, especially those who want to re-write TWI history and re-invent VPW in their idealized images, are REALLY saying "absolve."
----------------------------------
Do we absolve?
ab·solve
1-To pronounce clear of guilt or blame. - NO
2-To relieve of a requirement or obligation. - NO
3-To grant a remission of sin. - NO
4-To pardon or remit (a sin). - NO
----------------------------------
Do we forgive?
for·give (fr-gv, fôr-)
1-To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon. - While there is no excuse, we can excuse.
2-To renounce anger or resentment against. - Yes, while the past is past, anger and resentment are burdens we carry, and only we can put down
3-To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example). Yes, we can say, "VP, LCM, etc, you no longer owe it to me to suffer for what you've done on my behalf. I release you to the past and let God be our judge."
----------------------------------
The problem as I see it is how some (oldiesman, Dartanian and others) make it more difficult to forgive by attempting to publically absolve Wierwille, Martindale and the rest. This, consciously or unconsciously, justifies them and their actions, which is hardly different than those excusing them, or looking the other way, while still in the cult.
quote: Rascal you ignore the sacrifice of God's only begotten Son.
Forgiveness was yours the moment he laid down his life for you... before you were even born.
It was not granted you because of any action on your part.
That is why salvation and the forgiveness that came with it is of grace and not of works, lest you boast.
So then, the way you portray it, it IS 'legislated', in a round about, and somewhat dishonest way too. The old "Well, its not like I'm REQUIRING you to forgive, BUT Jesus died for you w/o you asking for him to, so-o-o ....." song-and-dance.
Besides, where is the part about the offender being required to take the initiative and asking forgiveness portrayed? Otherwise there is no obligation for the perp to make right what he did wrong.
I've been trying to figure out how to say that for years and years. Thank you for your post. On the difference between forgiveness and absolution, I agree with it wholeheartedly.
Is it insidious and evil that I have forgiven Don Wierwille for the sin he committed against me?
He asked for my forgiveness and I gave it to him. By the way he is the ONLY trustee to have apologized to me. And yes, I forgave him.
To do so, in your eyes, is insidious and evil?
I think to suggest if I decide to forgive someone is evil, I would tell you that the fact I forgave them is none of your business.
Do I forgive Don Wierwille for sins he committed against other people?
No, I don't have that authority.
Have I forgiven his father for what he did to me and my sister and my family? That is something I am working out between me and God.
Do I forgive him for what he did to others? I don't have that authority. And I hold him accountable and responsible.
Don Wierwille, and his father, and those who behaved likewise, are STILL RESPONSIBLE for what they did to others, and accountable to those people and accountable to GOD. I CANNOT EXCUSE THEIR BEHAVIOR.
Bur for you to insert yourself into WHOM I forgive is none of your business.
For me to insert myself into who you forgive, I do not have the authority.
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rascal
It all boils down to whether or not the other party repents, and asks, otherwise what we are offering is not really forgiveness....it`s just kind of a mental dissmissal on our part....
Come on, quit spouting platitudes long enough to think outside of the box for a miniute.
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Catcup
Rascal:
Forgiveness was yours before you even asked... as the first drop of his blood hit the dust of Golgotha's soil.
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Catcup
It was a gift then.
And it is a gift now, if we choose to bestow it upon an unworthy person, as was done for us.
But that is a choice which CANNOT BE LEGISLATED.
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Shellon
Sure, I can, have and will forgive.
If people never forgave me, I'd be in a world of pain and suffering ALOT!
My forgiveness is selective and individual, however. I have no problem forgiving my children instantly and never thinking of it again. It was pretty easy to clear the air with a good friend yesterday, forgive each other and get on with our lives.
Realizing this is primarily TWI we are referring to, I forgave those that caused me pain. Why not? It's not worth my time and energy staying angry with them and they couldn't possibly give a crap anyway, so my anger is wasted.
Will people like TWI be able to get to me again? No freaking way, but life is too short to miss by spending time raging over them.
The only exception I have here is the death of my children's father. It's my firm belief that TWI contributed to his death. This is an area where I don't see the point in "forgiveness". It's beyond that and something that will never ever ever ever be remedied, I don't care if they apologized profusely till end of time.
So, maybe there is forgiveness, then there is foregiveness and then there might be something past that.
Either way, I have a life to live and I'm not going to waste the energy worrying about whether or not they want, need or give a crap about my feelings.
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rascal
Nope, we did not recieve forgiveness untill we asked catcup....think about it...if forgiveness was automatically granted, folks then have no need to repent, change ...
Repentance and asking are required before we recieve.
I cannot believe that you can ignore such a basic spiritual principle.
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rascal
Any answeres as to why some were worthey and some were not?
Seems to me betrayal of Gods people were pretty high on the sh-t list...and as of yet I have read of no forgiveness granted those.
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oldiesman
This way seems to be more profitable and godly than having a mindset of scorn and condemnation.
Look at what Jesus said when they were killing him. Father forgive them ... wow what an example.
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rascal
Forgiveness is forgiveness...whether God is granting it or us....
God requires us to repent and ask...
I will do no less.....as it is a disservice to the one forgiven to recieve without making the proper changes. Consequences are a major factor in reevaluating whether or not to continue harmfull behavior.
Do you all not see that this is a major factor in the exponential escalation of twi`s evil practices...NOBODY believed that they were required to repent first....so evil was allowed to run rampantly unchecked...
Repentance is required for the one being forgiven...or it just plain isn`t forgiveness.
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rascal
Oldies, simply because I am unable to forgive, due to the offending parties refusal to repent....that in no way can be considered harboring wrath when the sun goes down....that is not applicable in this context.
Shoot, it`s not like I go to bed chanting the mantra *I hate wierwille*...lol
I have simply withheld that which is not mine to give, not untill the offending party meets the criteria that God in the scriptures has laid out, and that he requires of us.
I am able to do that and remain at complete peace, because I understand that the responsibility rests squarely on the shoulders of the offending party....when they have repented and asked for forgiveness, then I am required and will happily forgive....embracing them back into the center of God`s will :-).
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ChasUFarley
I forgive them. Pure, simple, honest.
But, I won't forget what they did.
God doesn't ask me to and I'm sure it's because it would be "impossible" to do, really. Sure, my memories have "softened" as time has gone on and I've been further away from them and their forms of abuse. I certainly wouldn't run back to them because I forgave them. I still think they are a corrupt, abusive, ego-centric organization and that's the complimentary part of what I think of them.
Just because I forgive them doesn't mean I want them to succeed with their mission, either. I think they should repent of their mistakes and either right themselves or fold. I'm not holding my breath for either to happen. I wish them no ill-will, just as I wish an "enemy" no ill-will. We just go our separate ways.
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Dartanian3m
rascal...I will forgive you for your unforgiving heart as soon as you say 7 our fathers and 5 holy marys...
--> 
:)-->
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Catcup
Rascal you ignore the sacrifice of God's only begotten Son.
Forgiveness was yours the moment he laid down his life for you... before you were even born.
It was not granted you because of any action on your part. You accepted Jesus as your Savior. You accepted him as your Saviour because you were helpless to save yourself. Forgiveness came with it because you ACCEPTED IT.
Not because of anything done by you at all.
That is why salvation and the forgiveness that came with it is of grace and not of works, lest you boast.
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rascal
Wow, even before I asked....lol Dartanion You are a better person than I :-)
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GarthP2000
Got a question for you Oldies:
Why is it that it is only Wierwille and his 'walking by the flesh' that usually gets your scriptural whitewash--err, defense? I don't see you rising to the like defense of trinitarians when their doctrine is attacked, or political liberals (or conservatives) are attacked and derided with equal venom as your 'preciouosssss' VPW.
Tell me why that is, hmmm? ... Perhaps that is why some of us see your ((cough)) 'biblical' defense of VPW as pure whitewash bull.....
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rascal
Catcup do NOT accuse me of ignoring the sacrafice of God`s son.
That offends me deeply.
We do not recieve that which he gave untill we repent and ask.....that is entirely different.
Did you read my words at all?? Have you honestly considered how unrepentance of sins and the instant *grace* belief allowed rampant evil in twi? Had we help vp to these standards scripturally required......he would have been required to repent (change) how many lives would have been spared?
As it was he went to his grave ...hurting people till the day he died...leaving the legacy of a ministry with people who carried the evil to ever greater hights.
Do you understand how insidious and evil it is to attempt to operate forgiveness in a way OTHER than that which it was set up by God?
If one doesn`t have to repent, they remain evil.
I think that is the biggest fault I find with a lot of extwi leaders and spin offs...they seem to be of the opinion of the evil practiced...Oh well...to bad so sad...get over it...It isn`t *MY* fault that you won`t forgive...yada yada remaining in victim mentality....yada yada....no responsibility ...no repentance ...no change and therefor still practicing evil.
Repentance is required or it does the offender no good.
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WhiteDove
Edited QUOTE: by Shellon
The only exception I have here is the death of my children's father. It's my firm belief that TWI contributed to his death. This is an area where I don't see the point in "forgiveness". It's beyond that and something that will never ever ever ever be remedied, I don't care if they apologized profusely till end of time.
So, maybe there is forgiveness, then there is foregiveness and then there might be something past that.
Interesting point Shellon I often wonder what it was like for the saints in the early church to see Paul who had consented to the death of some of their family and friends.
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Catcup
I am sorry you are offended, rascal.
But to refute the sacrifice of God's son, and the blood that he spilled to cleanse you of your sins while you were at enmity with God just might be offensive to God.
Tell me now, is your salvation of works or of grace?
My bible reads that I was at enmity with God, and while in that state, He sacrificed His only begotten Son in order that I might be cleansed and forgiven.
How that offends you, I know not. How you can refute that God extended this grace to you in an unclean state, I know not.
Otherwise, we don't need a Savior.
Now, I still stand by my original posts. You might find my position agrees with you on some points if you would read it.
Geek plans on answering the questions you posed to him and will do it when he has a chance. You pose good questions and they will get good answers.
I will allow him to answer those questions, because I don't have time to spend all day digging the answers up and posting them on this site like I did one day this week already.
Both of us went out and got a life after we left TWI, and have obligations outside this site that requrire our attention in order to make a living and enjoy the life we went out and got.
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satori001
I think people get hung up on the difference between forgive and absolve. Some who preach forgiveness, especially those who want to re-write TWI history and re-invent VPW in their idealized images, are REALLY saying "absolve."
----------------------------------
Do we absolve?
ab·solve
1-To pronounce clear of guilt or blame. - NO
2-To relieve of a requirement or obligation. - NO
3-To grant a remission of sin. - NO
4-To pardon or remit (a sin). - NO
----------------------------------
Do we forgive?
for·give (fr-gv, fôr-)
1-To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon. - While there is no excuse, we can excuse.
2-To renounce anger or resentment against. - Yes, while the past is past, anger and resentment are burdens we carry, and only we can put down
3-To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example). Yes, we can say, "VP, LCM, etc, you no longer owe it to me to suffer for what you've done on my behalf. I release you to the past and let God be our judge."
----------------------------------
The problem as I see it is how some (oldiesman, Dartanian and others) make it more difficult to forgive by attempting to publically absolve Wierwille, Martindale and the rest. This, consciously or unconsciously, justifies them and their actions, which is hardly different than those excusing them, or looking the other way, while still in the cult.
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rascal
You bet Catcup, as have we all,
I thank you for the courtesy of consideration of my questions as they are genuine.
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GarthP2000
Catcup,
So then, the way you portray it, it IS 'legislated', in a round about, and somewhat dishonest way too. The old "Well, its not like I'm REQUIRING you to forgive, BUT Jesus died for you w/o you asking for him to, so-o-o ....." song-and-dance.
Besides, where is the part about the offender being required to take the initiative and asking forgiveness portrayed? Otherwise there is no obligation for the perp to make right what he did wrong.
I'm with Rascal on this one.
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Raf
Satori,
I've been trying to figure out how to say that for years and years. Thank you for your post. On the difference between forgiveness and absolution, I agree with it wholeheartedly.
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Catcup
Is it insidious and evil that I have forgiven Don Wierwille for the sin he committed against me?
He asked for my forgiveness and I gave it to him. By the way he is the ONLY trustee to have apologized to me. And yes, I forgave him.
To do so, in your eyes, is insidious and evil?
I think to suggest if I decide to forgive someone is evil, I would tell you that the fact I forgave them is none of your business.
Do I forgive Don Wierwille for sins he committed against other people?
No, I don't have that authority.
Have I forgiven his father for what he did to me and my sister and my family? That is something I am working out between me and God.
Do I forgive him for what he did to others? I don't have that authority. And I hold him accountable and responsible.
Don Wierwille, and his father, and those who behaved likewise, are STILL RESPONSIBLE for what they did to others, and accountable to those people and accountable to GOD. I CANNOT EXCUSE THEIR BEHAVIOR.
Bur for you to insert yourself into WHOM I forgive is none of your business.
For me to insert myself into who you forgive, I do not have the authority.
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rascal
Nope, Don Wierwille asked for forgiveness...he met the requirement. I am with you on that.
Where do you get that I am telling you whom to forgive? I never intimated it was any of my business at all.
Was it not Geek who was telling me whom *I* am to forgive?
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Catcup
Garth, go read my original posts and you will see my position.
I do not ABSOLVE these people for what they have done to anyone else.
If I choose to forgive them for what they did to me, I can do so and STILL hold them responsible for their actions.
AND
I do not have the authority to forgive them for what they did to you. That's between you and them and God
Nor do I have the authority to LEGISLATE what you decide to do about your issues with them.
I do NOT EXCUSE any of these people for what they did to you.
Some of you have not read my original posts, nor do you remember my positions which have not changed since WD.
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