Please stop reading emotion where there is none catcup, this is merely a discussion of ideas, something that happens here when one posts such a simple honest question as Geek has done.
That is part of the healing annd growth process...part of evaluating and cleansing our minds from misinformation aquired from the teachings of twi.
I await the answeres Geek is courtiously willing to supply, at his leasure of course, in the meantime the discussion moves on.
All input is valuable, be it yours, mine, geeks, as I am quite sure that God has continued to aid and nurture each of us as we continue our journey after leaving twi.
Much like our laws allow people to misuse freedom and at times hide behind them resulting in unjust ends. Perhaps so it is with Grace and Forgivenesss. Was that not Pauls point in Romans
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
NO
It is reprensible that many chose to use Gods grace and forgiveness and love to their evil end but I'd have to agree with Catcup,that does not change the fact that they were freely given and He sacrificed His only begotten Son in order that I might be cleansed and forgiven.
The first person I ever heard invoke the Law that forgiveness is only available to those who humbly and meekly confess their sins against the potential forgiver, and then beg to be forgiven was LCM.
Therefore I must confess that to me that doctrine is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
Forgiveness is cleansing and healing. I must say that I have to pluck the beam from my own eye before I attempt to remove the splinter from someone else's.
I must forgive those who have offended me. For who in TWI or out of it has offended me as much as my sins have offended the Christ Who shed his blood for me?
Whether they recognise they have offended me and ask forgiveness or remain self-righteous and consider me a vile and loathsome subhuman creature, or rant and rail against me in WC meetings, etc.
I can't change what they feel and think. I CAN change what I feel and think.
I forgave twi and anyone who ever hurt me even if thought none asked for it. Why? Because I needed to move and not live in a state of rage because of the bs I endured in that organization. It does not mean that I trust them again or even respect them again. As a matter of fact, they are probably close, if not at the end, of my list of respect and trust.
It does not mean that the wrongs they did are OK now, but it does mean that I can move on from ill feelings which cause rage in my heart.
I think this whole idea of forgiveness requires someone to ask you for it first is another BS teaching from twi. We must put ourselves above their rancid doctrines and live a higher level of love.
Geek, 3 things that I'm trying to govern my life by-
-gracious living.
-merciful behavior.
-love.
These 3 things have biblical definitions but can be approached on a simple, human common sense level. I define a "good" person and a good life by them.
Gracious living is simply to give each person the highest standard of regard that I can muster at the time. "Grace" - undeserved merit or favor. I don't do good under that rule because you deserve it, I do good because I believe doing good is the right thing to do.
Likwise merciful behavior. Not extending a forgiving hand only when someone deserves it, but because I believe it allows me to aspire to a higher standard by doing so. Forgiving any one person for any one thing is minor. Learning from the experience is major.
Love - altruism in action. I Cor. 13 says it better than anything. Good done without the concern for return, where good is it's own reward. Grace and mercy in action.
None of these 3 things prevent judgment. If someone were a self-serving greedy hypocrite, it doesn't change that, nor an evaluation of that by another person. If something stinks, it stinks. That's common sense too. These things simply provide some direction as to how another reacts and responds to it if they choose to.
When I have more time I'm going to read every post here much more carefully. Until then I have just this one word to say to your originating post on this thread and to those who have harmonized with your heart....... BRAVO!!!
I couldn't get past the 2nd post here...because for just over 11 years I lived in the neighborhood that Charles Sheldon wrote about.
As a young girl and a teenager, I loved In His Steps and used it as a guide to help me in what I wanted to do in this world.
Of course, while in twi I shunned the book as sappy, powerless pablam for weak-kneed glory hounds.
Then when I moved into the neighborhood the book is about, I thought "Oh wow! Here I am! Right smack dab in the middle of it all where it all started. Yipee!"
4 years later I had seen more than enough to convince me that Jesus didn't have a whole lot to do with what had been done to the neighborhood.
It has taken all of these last 7 years to build a viable relationship with the congregants of the church which Sheldon pastored...not even considering undoing the damage that his book has done to the reputation of the neighborhood.
So it's very interesting to me that forgiveness of twi and Charles Sheldon are mentioned in the same thread in the first 2 posts...
Needless to say, forgiving is not the same as forgetting...
Repent- 1. to feel sorry for (a past error, sin, omission, etc.) 2. to feel such regret over (some past act, intention etc.) as to change one's mind.
Luke 17:1
Then said he unto his disciples, It is
impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2. It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3. Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; AND IF HE REPENT, forgive him.
4. And if he trepass against thee seven times in a day and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I REPENT; thou shalt forgive him.
Also check out Luke 13:1-5 and 2 Corinthians 7:10-13
And as far as I know, I never heard of any godly repentance coming from the top leadership's mouths, in fact they just went on practising their crap to their heart's content.
"Uhh, uhh, uhhh, ... that's from the old wine skins scripture, non-PFAL approved. ... Remember, PFAL has *replaced* the Bible as God's Word for this our day and time! And in PFAL, it sez 'Yea, forgive VPW, no matter what he hath done or whether he has repented according to the senses!'"
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Catcup
Now, I HAVE TO GET BACK TO WORK!
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rascal
Please stop reading emotion where there is none catcup, this is merely a discussion of ideas, something that happens here when one posts such a simple honest question as Geek has done.
That is part of the healing annd growth process...part of evaluating and cleansing our minds from misinformation aquired from the teachings of twi.
I await the answeres Geek is courtiously willing to supply, at his leasure of course, in the meantime the discussion moves on.
All input is valuable, be it yours, mine, geeks, as I am quite sure that God has continued to aid and nurture each of us as we continue our journey after leaving twi.
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Catcup
I think emotion is beginning to cloud the issue when Geek is accused of wagging his finger and telling you who to forgive.
He did none of that.
Now, I really gotta go.
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rascal
That comment was more directed at the folks that jumped on his wagon the ones that had already whipped out their ever present wagging fingers.
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oldiesman
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WhiteDove
Much like our laws allow people to misuse freedom and at times hide behind them resulting in unjust ends. Perhaps so it is with Grace and Forgivenesss. Was that not Pauls point in Romans
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
NO
It is reprensible that many chose to use Gods grace and forgiveness and love to their evil end but I'd have to agree with Catcup,that does not change the fact that they were freely given and He sacrificed His only begotten Son in order that I might be cleansed and forgiven.
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Watered Garden
The first person I ever heard invoke the Law that forgiveness is only available to those who humbly and meekly confess their sins against the potential forgiver, and then beg to be forgiven was LCM.
Therefore I must confess that to me that doctrine is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
Forgiveness is cleansing and healing. I must say that I have to pluck the beam from my own eye before I attempt to remove the splinter from someone else's.
I must forgive those who have offended me. For who in TWI or out of it has offended me as much as my sins have offended the Christ Who shed his blood for me?
Whether they recognise they have offended me and ask forgiveness or remain self-righteous and consider me a vile and loathsome subhuman creature, or rant and rail against me in WC meetings, etc.
I can't change what they feel and think. I CAN change what I feel and think.
WG
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rascal
I don`t understand why you think that it would be any different for us than what God himself requires?
He doesn`t ask it, he REQUIRES it of us.
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Nottawayfer
I forgave twi and anyone who ever hurt me even if thought none asked for it. Why? Because I needed to move and not live in a state of rage because of the bs I endured in that organization. It does not mean that I trust them again or even respect them again. As a matter of fact, they are probably close, if not at the end, of my list of respect and trust.
It does not mean that the wrongs they did are OK now, but it does mean that I can move on from ill feelings which cause rage in my heart.
I think this whole idea of forgiveness requires someone to ask you for it first is another BS teaching from twi. We must put ourselves above their rancid doctrines and live a higher level of love.
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socks
Geek, 3 things that I'm trying to govern my life by-
-gracious living.
-merciful behavior.
-love.
These 3 things have biblical definitions but can be approached on a simple, human common sense level. I define a "good" person and a good life by them.
Gracious living is simply to give each person the highest standard of regard that I can muster at the time. "Grace" - undeserved merit or favor. I don't do good under that rule because you deserve it, I do good because I believe doing good is the right thing to do.
Likwise merciful behavior. Not extending a forgiving hand only when someone deserves it, but because I believe it allows me to aspire to a higher standard by doing so. Forgiving any one person for any one thing is minor. Learning from the experience is major.
Love - altruism in action. I Cor. 13 says it better than anything. Good done without the concern for return, where good is it's own reward. Grace and mercy in action.
None of these 3 things prevent judgment. If someone were a self-serving greedy hypocrite, it doesn't change that, nor an evaluation of that by another person. If something stinks, it stinks. That's common sense too. These things simply provide some direction as to how another reacts and responds to it if they choose to.
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Mike
Dear Research Geek,
When I have more time I'm going to read every post here much more carefully. Until then I have just this one word to say to your originating post on this thread and to those who have harmonized with your heart....... BRAVO!!!
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GarthP2000
(I just KNEW that Smikeol was gonna chime in with a post like his. Anything to help out with the Great Whitewash of St. Vic.)
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CoolWaters
I couldn't get past the 2nd post here...because for just over 11 years I lived in the neighborhood that Charles Sheldon wrote about.
As a young girl and a teenager, I loved In His Steps and used it as a guide to help me in what I wanted to do in this world.
Of course, while in twi I shunned the book as sappy, powerless pablam for weak-kneed glory hounds.
Then when I moved into the neighborhood the book is about, I thought "Oh wow! Here I am! Right smack dab in the middle of it all where it all started. Yipee!"
4 years later I had seen more than enough to convince me that Jesus didn't have a whole lot to do with what had been done to the neighborhood.
It has taken all of these last 7 years to build a viable relationship with the congregants of the church which Sheldon pastored...not even considering undoing the damage that his book has done to the reputation of the neighborhood.
So it's very interesting to me that forgiveness of twi and Charles Sheldon are mentioned in the same thread in the first 2 posts...
Needless to say, forgiving is not the same as forgetting...
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Mike,
Uhmmm... i don't think RG is calling a rally for a harmony of posters here to his side, it maybe that you want to see it that way.
What "Bravo" would you have for those who have not harmonised with RG's heart? A Hiss & BOO?
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Mike
No hiss, no boo. Just understanding and patience.
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GarthP2000
... and Yet Another Dodge to boot!
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Cowgirl
Just my 2 cents worth......
Repent- 1. to feel sorry for (a past error, sin, omission, etc.) 2. to feel such regret over (some past act, intention etc.) as to change one's mind.
Luke 17:1
Then said he unto his disciples, It is
impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2. It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3. Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; AND IF HE REPENT, forgive him.
4. And if he trepass against thee seven times in a day and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I REPENT; thou shalt forgive him.
Also check out Luke 13:1-5 and 2 Corinthians 7:10-13
And as far as I know, I never heard of any godly repentance coming from the top leadership's mouths, in fact they just went on practising their crap to their heart's content.
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rascal
Wow, now THATS what I`m talking about....thanks cow girl.
How bout DEM scrips?
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GarthP2000
And Smikeol (and other VPW whitewashers) sayeth:
"Uhh, uhh, uhhh, ... that's from the old wine skins scripture, non-PFAL approved. ... Remember, PFAL has *replaced* the Bible as God's Word for this our day and time! And in PFAL, it sez 'Yea, forgive VPW, no matter what he hath done or whether he has repented according to the senses!'"
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Steve!
Just when you thought it was safe, *BAM!*, the worshippers of docvic(praise be his name) return with a vengeance.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Mike,
So the "Bravo" gives/expects "understanding and patience" to/from the unbravo?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Forgive sure.
To forget what one forgave the other is another matter.
Resolve the pollution in our souls the trust we had men and women of gawd TWI, sure.
To quote JC's forgiveness to others is not a fair example why we should forgive. JC knew what was to happen to him. We did not.
IMHO Eph 2:8,9 is contradictory Ro 10:9,10.
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Catcup
Rascal, I will repeat this:
I think emotion is beginning to cloud the issue when Geek is accused of wagging his finger and telling you who to forgive.
And you grouped him in with those you accused of wagging their fingers, and yes, you claimed he was telling you who to forgive.
PROVE IT.
HE DID NO SUCH THING.
And things Geek and I have said have been taken out of context by people on either side of our stand to support their own causes.
Some of you shouldn't think for a NY second that we support your views regarding VPW et al and their sins, in any way, shape, or form.
And others of you need to divorce yourself from the emotion, calm down, and go read what was originally written by BOTH of us.
Both extreme sides are doing what TWI LOVES TO DO:
You're twisting our words.
For those of you who understood a simple question and gave it a simple answer, thank you.
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Catcup
I think the answer to Geek's original question is painfully obvious.
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