C.C., could be.. but I don't think his book would end up on a best seller list anytime soon. Cripe, in my opinion, people had to be brow beaten and threatened to buy any of his academia even when he was "in". His book was "required" reading- or pretty close to it.
Like you said, we don't know anything at all about where his head and heart is at, and so, since it doesn't cost me anything, I will hope for the best for him. My wife knew him way back in Oklahoma days before he was any kind of a big shot, and she said that he had a tender heart and was very kind. My wife sat with his Grand Ma once, and even she said that when Craig was little, he had great respect for life and didn't like it when other kids tortured bugs and would go to their (the bug's) defense. And now someone will proably make a crack about "well at least Craig drew the line somewhere!" But I have pre-empted that.
Through his sin, he has ruined many a human. And maybe just maybe, he can come back from that. I know that there are many an ex Way leaders who post here who had probably been on that same "Elite Way Leadership Bandwagon" who have now changed, and Craig should be afforded that same chance, for Craig followed VPW as we did at one time when he was just a "new guy"...
Though, I truly believe if LCM wanted to change and move on he would need to do some apologizing (understatement). As time goes on (now 7 years since the first lawsuit) those who were injured emotionally, financially, physically and spiritually sit in limbo in many ways and have to pick-up the pieces of their damaged lives. Would it not be ideal for him (if he was a true minister) to come forward and apologize if only to help those who needed healing?
At least those who were at one time as you say on a "Elite Way Leadership Bandwagon" have come forward and made ammends to best of their abilities.
It makes me wonder if LCM were to start up another ministry, would it really be a genuine one? Who is to say if damage was done yet again, that he wouldn't just bail like he did before?
I agree with everything you said. When it comes to your last paragraph:
quote: It makes me wonder if LCM were to start up another ministry, would it really be a genuine one? Who is to say if damage was done yet again, that he wouldn't just bail like he did before?
,
All I can say is that no one knows but God. And certainly no one is saying "let's help him start a new ministry" or anything like that. I am just saying that this is not in the realm of impossibility for a person to change, no matter how much anyone was hurt by that person. Paul got through his Christian murdering ordeal, many many ExTWI leaders repented and have had a complete change of heart with apologies extended as well, and it is not in the realm of impossibility for Craig to change also.
And as for me, it serves me better, for my own peace of mind to wish him "serious get well", pray for him, and for me not to dwell on the negatives I had while involved with him. I mentioned the thing about Craig's Grand Ma in response to Cherish Child's mention of LCM at one time having a tender heart, and that incident that my wife shared with me fit that particular sentiment.
"If thine enemy hunger, feed him. If he thirsts, give him to drink. For inso doing, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head (and warm him through and through)
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good"
Paraphrase of Romas 12, last one or two verses.
I know that I am in the right if I do that, that is, if the Good Book means anything to me. And since I am not around and am highly unlikely to ever be around LCM again while in this earthly body, the only "good" that I can do for him is to pray for him when I think about him, and hope that he gets to his knees and humbles himself before the Almighty Hand of God.
I mean, in relation to his life today, that would be the only good thing that could happen to him, right? And then, maybe God could help him from there.
I tend to think of LCM as a tired, old, beaten, depressed, SOB.
I remember after "da fog" he talked about being depressed to the point of even considering suiside. Now that may just have been a story, but I think I believe it. A man with such extreme mood swings...swings both ways. lol I think the realization of that all he had to fall back on was, as someone else said, his feeble college atheletic career, has made what he did to others hit home.
He is not beyond that. He realised at some point after kicking out tons of corps that these people didn't have a career to go back to, since many went in so young. So, his response was to incourage kids to go to college first before going corps. Of course that also meant that they could get better paying jobs and ABS more.
Anyway, I imagine him as a depressed aging old fart trying his hardest to keep fit and look young and failling miserably. He goes home after work and either watches TV all night or studies his Bible looking for ways to get it right and finding no answers, because all he has ever seen in there is how great he was and how low he is now. I bet he even thinks about ending his pathetic life occationally too.
either that or he's an anger old curmudgeon constantly talking to himself about how right he is and how the world is out to get him.
Of course this may just be my own little heaven and hell fantasy, hoping he gets waht he deserves.
I do not disagree with what you are saying. Though LCM's track record right now is not in his favour. Therefore, if he were to start a new ministry without fixing the mess he created (at least coming forward with some form of apology)I'd have to go with my gut instinct and say, "I got a feeling this is bull....!!"
I seem to recall that in TWI it was #1 on their agenda that they come out smelling like a rose no matter what. If they had to trample someone, sweep something under the rug, defame someone's credentials, run them into the ground, they did it in order for them to come out looking like we're right, they're wrong. I saw that political game be played over and over and over both to me and to others. Of course, this was all done in order that 'the ministry be not blamed' which we all know that that has NOTHING to do with what that scripture is saying.
Now, the longer I am away from that cruel outfit, the more I see how they had things in complete reverse. Their philosophy was ... The word FIRST, humans SECOND. I disagree, I disagree, I disagree.
After all is said and done and I am six feet under I will be remembered by my family, my friends, my colleages by how I treated/loved them NOT by how much bible I spewed. God will too.
This is all hypothetical conjecture anyway. The man's track record is bad. But once again, no one knows what is in the heart of a man or a woman but God Almighty. Paul changed from a murdring priest, to a minister of the gospel of our lord Jesus Christ. Anything can happen, that's all I am saying, and I would rather be more like Jesus and say "forgive him Father, for he knew not what he did", than to be like the crowds that screamed; "Crucify him!"
If the man does want to change, then that is between he and God. If it is a bogus "Saul like" "change", then that is between he and God also. I don't really waste much time thinking about it. This thread came up, so I commented with my beliefs.
If he wants to start a new "ministry", that's his business. But I don't think it would get much of a start in this country unless he changed his name and his manner of being.
This thread has been extremely healing for me as a christian, a person.....as a woman. For those of you that followed Waydale and the early days of Gspot.....I was perplexed, hurt and venomous. Forgiveness was not even in my consideration.....EVER.
It has been five years since I left twi. FIVE LONG YEARS, filled with physical trauma, emotional enlightenment, Spiritual growth. Research Geek's recent thread on forgiveness spawned huge arguments, but started me thinking in a new way.
5 years ago, forgiving lcm was the LAST thing I would have ever considered.....I didnt even believe it was possible.......I AM STILL NOT SURE. HOWEVER, if he were to contact me, personally acknowledge the damage he he did to me, apologize for the heartbreak, and ask me to forgive him......I am pretty sure that I would have it within me.
If he were to go on with his life (which is his RIGHT) attempt to rebuild and reinstitute any sort of CHRISTIAN following, group or ministry....I would do everything I could to alert his new followers. He wouldn't be a genuine minister.....
"...if he were to contact me, personally acknowledge the damage he he did to me, apologize for the heartbreak, and ask me to forgive him......I am pretty sure that I would have it within me."
This is a huge step in your life!! Hopefully I will be able to do the same if someone who has wronged me asked forgiveness. On the flip side of the coin, if I were to go to someone and ask for their forgiveness, hopefully they would respond positively.
I started this thread with the hopes that it would end up being a list of humorous names for Lcm's splinter group...like, Martindale's Marauders, Athletes with attitudes, or followers of the prevailing turd...but oh nooooooo...you all have to go serious on me. ;)-->
Forgive Martindale? It would be the Christian thing to do. Easy?...neither is quitting smoking.
Thanks for all the heart felt and insightful responses to my original question. Legitimate questions about twi's version of the "gift ministries", our capacity to grow and forgive, God's calling in a person's life...a lot of interesting spins on where lcm's life may be at now...I guess we all have gained new and healthier perspectives in a lot of ways...
As far as Martindale goes...I don't wish bad on him. Part of the healing is not to let bitterness get the better of you...If I stayed angry forever, I would be the one who got the ulcer, not craiggers. I would like to think that he recognized the truth of what really happened and that he was repentant in his heart. Of course, this may or may not be the case...Be that as it may, the longer I am "out" of twi (17 years now)...the more distance there is between me and that nefarious chapter of my life...and the less I am bothered by any of it anymore. I suppose that is part of the reason why I post here...because I can assure those who are recently "out", that things do get much, much, much, better as time goes on...
...And whether you forgive Martindale or not is a personal choice...I do think it's important to continue posting the truth of what these scoundrals once did, because..."they" (meaning twi) are still doing it!
CKnapp...You may have hit the nail on the head...who's to say that lcm didn't "test the waters" for his own splinter group only to discover that most people would rather be dragged naked from the back of a pick up truck than ever listen to another word he has to say.
Warmed the bench on the University of Kansas football team in the Orange Bowl.
Way International from ___________ to when they trew me out.
Brown nosed my way into the President slot at the height of TWI's growth.
Alienated 90% of his contemporaries while presiding over the steepest decline in the ministry's history.
Greatest athletic achievement: Having adultrous sex with the seed of the serpent while in training to hop around the stage in tights.
Not one published book in decades of "spiritual leadership."
Firmly established TWI's reputation as one of the world's most dangerous mind controlling cults.
Most famous quote: "....You'll be a GreaseSpot by midnight...." consistently refuted by the lives of thousands of EX- followers who would rather be dragged naked behind a chariot than sit through him saying ANYTHING, EVER again. (Rumor has it they would purchase said chariot and provide the horses.)
Never able to figure out what to call people in charge of stuff.
Lost more property than ministry ever had.
Available for new, start up, Godly prevailing ministry after being thrown out by prevailing insanity filled "Directors."
Come one come all we'll party til the cows come home!
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Ham
C.C., could be.. but I don't think his book would end up on a best seller list anytime soon. Cripe, in my opinion, people had to be brow beaten and threatened to buy any of his academia even when he was "in". His book was "required" reading- or pretty close to it.
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J0nny Ling0
Cherished Child,
Like you said, we don't know anything at all about where his head and heart is at, and so, since it doesn't cost me anything, I will hope for the best for him. My wife knew him way back in Oklahoma days before he was any kind of a big shot, and she said that he had a tender heart and was very kind. My wife sat with his Grand Ma once, and even she said that when Craig was little, he had great respect for life and didn't like it when other kids tortured bugs and would go to their (the bug's) defense. And now someone will proably make a crack about "well at least Craig drew the line somewhere!" But I have pre-empted that.
Through his sin, he has ruined many a human. And maybe just maybe, he can come back from that. I know that there are many an ex Way leaders who post here who had probably been on that same "Elite Way Leadership Bandwagon" who have now changed, and Craig should be afforded that same chance, for Craig followed VPW as we did at one time when he was just a "new guy"...
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A la prochaine
JL,
I think you have some valid points here.
Though, I truly believe if LCM wanted to change and move on he would need to do some apologizing (understatement). As time goes on (now 7 years since the first lawsuit) those who were injured emotionally, financially, physically and spiritually sit in limbo in many ways and have to pick-up the pieces of their damaged lives. Would it not be ideal for him (if he was a true minister) to come forward and apologize if only to help those who needed healing?
At least those who were at one time as you say on a "Elite Way Leadership Bandwagon" have come forward and made ammends to best of their abilities.
It makes me wonder if LCM were to start up another ministry, would it really be a genuine one? Who is to say if damage was done yet again, that he wouldn't just bail like he did before?
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J0nny Ling0
Ala P,
I agree with everything you said. When it comes to your last paragraph:
,All I can say is that no one knows but God. And certainly no one is saying "let's help him start a new ministry" or anything like that. I am just saying that this is not in the realm of impossibility for a person to change, no matter how much anyone was hurt by that person. Paul got through his Christian murdering ordeal, many many ExTWI leaders repented and have had a complete change of heart with apologies extended as well, and it is not in the realm of impossibility for Craig to change also.
And as for me, it serves me better, for my own peace of mind to wish him "serious get well", pray for him, and for me not to dwell on the negatives I had while involved with him. I mentioned the thing about Craig's Grand Ma in response to Cherish Child's mention of LCM at one time having a tender heart, and that incident that my wife shared with me fit that particular sentiment.
"If thine enemy hunger, feed him. If he thirsts, give him to drink. For inso doing, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head (and warm him through and through)
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good"
Paraphrase of Romas 12, last one or two verses.
I know that I am in the right if I do that, that is, if the Good Book means anything to me. And since I am not around and am highly unlikely to ever be around LCM again while in this earthly body, the only "good" that I can do for him is to pray for him when I think about him, and hope that he gets to his knees and humbles himself before the Almighty Hand of God.
I mean, in relation to his life today, that would be the only good thing that could happen to him, right? And then, maybe God could help him from there.
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lindyhopper
I tend to think of LCM as a tired, old, beaten, depressed, SOB.
I remember after "da fog" he talked about being depressed to the point of even considering suiside. Now that may just have been a story, but I think I believe it. A man with such extreme mood swings...swings both ways. lol I think the realization of that all he had to fall back on was, as someone else said, his feeble college atheletic career, has made what he did to others hit home.
He is not beyond that. He realised at some point after kicking out tons of corps that these people didn't have a career to go back to, since many went in so young. So, his response was to incourage kids to go to college first before going corps. Of course that also meant that they could get better paying jobs and ABS more.
Anyway, I imagine him as a depressed aging old fart trying his hardest to keep fit and look young and failling miserably. He goes home after work and either watches TV all night or studies his Bible looking for ways to get it right and finding no answers, because all he has ever seen in there is how great he was and how low he is now. I bet he even thinks about ending his pathetic life occationally too.
either that or he's an anger old curmudgeon constantly talking to himself about how right he is and how the world is out to get him.
Of course this may just be my own little heaven and hell fantasy, hoping he gets waht he deserves.
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A la prochaine
Jonny,
I do not disagree with what you are saying. Though LCM's track record right now is not in his favour. Therefore, if he were to start a new ministry without fixing the mess he created (at least coming forward with some form of apology)I'd have to go with my gut instinct and say, "I got a feeling this is bull....!!"
I seem to recall that in TWI it was #1 on their agenda that they come out smelling like a rose no matter what. If they had to trample someone, sweep something under the rug, defame someone's credentials, run them into the ground, they did it in order for them to come out looking like we're right, they're wrong. I saw that political game be played over and over and over both to me and to others. Of course, this was all done in order that 'the ministry be not blamed' which we all know that that has NOTHING to do with what that scripture is saying.
Now, the longer I am away from that cruel outfit, the more I see how they had things in complete reverse. Their philosophy was ... The word FIRST, humans SECOND. I disagree, I disagree, I disagree.
After all is said and done and I am six feet under I will be remembered by my family, my friends, my colleages by how I treated/loved them NOT by how much bible I spewed. God will too.
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J0nny Ling0
This is all hypothetical conjecture anyway. The man's track record is bad. But once again, no one knows what is in the heart of a man or a woman but God Almighty. Paul changed from a murdring priest, to a minister of the gospel of our lord Jesus Christ. Anything can happen, that's all I am saying, and I would rather be more like Jesus and say "forgive him Father, for he knew not what he did", than to be like the crowds that screamed; "Crucify him!"
If the man does want to change, then that is between he and God. If it is a bogus "Saul like" "change", then that is between he and God also. I don't really waste much time thinking about it. This thread came up, so I commented with my beliefs.
If he wants to start a new "ministry", that's his business. But I don't think it would get much of a start in this country unless he changed his name and his manner of being.
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Radar OReilly
This thread has been extremely healing for me as a christian, a person.....as a woman. For those of you that followed Waydale and the early days of Gspot.....I was perplexed, hurt and venomous. Forgiveness was not even in my consideration.....EVER.
It has been five years since I left twi. FIVE LONG YEARS, filled with physical trauma, emotional enlightenment, Spiritual growth. Research Geek's recent thread on forgiveness spawned huge arguments, but started me thinking in a new way.
5 years ago, forgiving lcm was the LAST thing I would have ever considered.....I didnt even believe it was possible.......I AM STILL NOT SURE. HOWEVER, if he were to contact me, personally acknowledge the damage he he did to me, apologize for the heartbreak, and ask me to forgive him......I am pretty sure that I would have it within me.
If he were to go on with his life (which is his RIGHT) attempt to rebuild and reinstitute any sort of CHRISTIAN following, group or ministry....I would do everything I could to alert his new followers. He wouldn't be a genuine minister.....
ror
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Stayed Too Long
"...if he were to contact me, personally acknowledge the damage he he did to me, apologize for the heartbreak, and ask me to forgive him......I am pretty sure that I would have it within me."
This is a huge step in your life!! Hopefully I will be able to do the same if someone who has wronged me asked forgiveness. On the flip side of the coin, if I were to go to someone and ask for their forgiveness, hopefully they would respond positively.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I started this thread with the hopes that it would end up being a list of humorous names for Lcm's splinter group...like, Martindale's Marauders, Athletes with attitudes, or followers of the prevailing turd...but oh nooooooo...you all have to go serious on me.
;)-->
Forgive Martindale? It would be the Christian thing to do. Easy?...neither is quitting smoking.
Thanks for all the heart felt and insightful responses to my original question. Legitimate questions about twi's version of the "gift ministries", our capacity to grow and forgive, God's calling in a person's life...a lot of interesting spins on where lcm's life may be at now...I guess we all have gained new and healthier perspectives in a lot of ways...
As far as Martindale goes...I don't wish bad on him. Part of the healing is not to let bitterness get the better of you...If I stayed angry forever, I would be the one who got the ulcer, not craiggers. I would like to think that he recognized the truth of what really happened and that he was repentant in his heart. Of course, this may or may not be the case...Be that as it may, the longer I am "out" of twi (17 years now)...the more distance there is between me and that nefarious chapter of my life...and the less I am bothered by any of it anymore. I suppose that is part of the reason why I post here...because I can assure those who are recently "out", that things do get much, much, much, better as time goes on...
...And whether you forgive Martindale or not is a personal choice...I do think it's important to continue posting the truth of what these scoundrals once did, because..."they" (meaning twi) are still doing it!
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Ham
OK Uncle H. How about:
The Spasmodic spandex bearing sphincters
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Steve!
How bout:
Craig's Crapeaters
Loy's Boys
Present Spewth Ministries
Who's Your Daddy in da Wurd? ministries
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JustThinking
Ok, I'll stop being so serewious.
Goos for Jesus
The BustyMarion Church
The WAP-Tryst Church
Bootyism
My Way International
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Steve!
The Way of the King (as in: Droit du Seigneur)
One Way
All! Powerful! Brand! Spankin! New! Ministry!
Abundantly Powerful Power of Loy's Enterprises (APPLES)
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Belle
The Way of the Wedies
Spandex Spirituals
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Stayed Too Long
Loy's Way or the Hiway.
Fortune 500 Ministries
Prevailing Greasespots
Ladies Nite In Ministries
The Cleaned up Household
HomoErectus Blaster's
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JustThinking
The "1/2 As Smart As The Last Guy" Ministry
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CKnapp3
An answer to the question begged on this thread:
"Who would be stupid enough to join such a group?"
See??? I answered a question with a question!
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GrouchoMarxJr
CKnapp...You may have hit the nail on the head...who's to say that lcm didn't "test the waters" for his own splinter group only to discover that most people would rather be dragged naked from the back of a pick up truck than ever listen to another word he has to say.
Of course, if he did start one...
;)-->
"FCFC"...(Former Clergy For Christ)
"FCLC"...(First Church of the Last Chance)
"FAGS"...(Foreheads Against Grease Spot)
"FBWIC"..(Former Bench Warmer in Charge)
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HCW
Imagine what his history would be:
Warmed the bench on the University of Kansas football team in the Orange Bowl.
Way International from ___________ to when they trew me out.
Brown nosed my way into the President slot at the height of TWI's growth.
Alienated 90% of his contemporaries while presiding over the steepest decline in the ministry's history.
Greatest athletic achievement: Having adultrous sex with the seed of the serpent while in training to hop around the stage in tights.
Not one published book in decades of "spiritual leadership."
Firmly established TWI's reputation as one of the world's most dangerous mind controlling cults.
Most famous quote: "....You'll be a GreaseSpot by midnight...." consistently refuted by the lives of thousands of EX- followers who would rather be dragged naked behind a chariot than sit through him saying ANYTHING, EVER again. (Rumor has it they would purchase said chariot and provide the horses.)
Never able to figure out what to call people in charge of stuff.
Lost more property than ministry ever had.
Available for new, start up, Godly prevailing ministry after being thrown out by prevailing insanity filled "Directors."
Come one come all we'll party til the cows come home!
Let's PREVAIL!!!!!!!
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Steve!
HC, actually, loyboy *did* have a couple of books published. O course, he probably had ghost writers.
docvic(praise be his name) and me
rise and expansion of the first century church
which should be retitled:
bloat and crash of a twentieth century cult
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Ham
Heh heh.. but I think even that is over-rating him..
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Steve!
The "Twice the Commitment" Ministry (translated: twice as many people get commmitted to institutions)
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