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Tom Strange
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The runner on third base is forced out at the plate and the game is over...Here's why: The dropped third strike rule with first base occupied is applied in the same manner as the infield fly rule,..to protect the offence...With one out or less, a catcher can purposely drop a a third strike and quickly retrieve the ball and turn a double play (second to first)..With two outs, first base being occupied doesn't matter since you can't gain anything by turning two, so a dropped third strike is no longer considered an automatic out with first base occupied...In your scenario, Lifted, with the ball being ON homeplate, the catcher would have had to grab control of the ball while it was touching the plate in order to pick it up and heave it to first...By his having control of the ball while it was touching home plate, the runner on third was automatically forced out and the game is over...All the overthrowing and baserunning became moot...

If you guys noticed, the infield fly ruling was not in effect because of the high wind conditions the other day...Popups were not routine and the infield fly ruling would have had the reverse affect---protecting the defense by giving them an automatic out on a difficult play...

Yea, the overthrowing and baserunning are moot. But it pretty much has to be done, at least at the levels I call, because most don't know the rules in this case, or are not sure. Like a defensive football player who picks up a fumble and runs with it because he didn't hear the whistle after the runner was judges to be down before losing the ball.

Of course Simon is right, and is hereby designated my umpiring assistant, which might be kind of presumptive, since I don't know for sure that he doesn't know more than I do about the rules. With two outs, anything goes for the batter/runner, no matter which base(s) are occupied or empty. He's not automatically out on an infield pop up, or on a third strike.

Simon even well knows about that infield fly situation; i.e. even if the situation applies ((runners on first and second or bases loaded; less than two outs) the ball has to be catchable with ordinary effort. With very strong winds and a stadium to swirl them around, ordinary effort does not do it. By the same token, an infield fly may be called on a ball caught by an outfielder on the outfield grass if, in the ump's judgement, it could have been easily enough handled by an infielder.

Geez, I think Simon's been hiding something.

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Geez, I think Simon's been hiding something.

If you think Simon's been hiding that he's a smart person, I would disagree... he doesn't hide it, but he doesn't go out of his way to disclose it either...

He's about the smartest non-college (other than the Way College) educated guy I know.

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If you think Simon's been hiding that he's a smart person, I would disagree... he doesn't hide it, but he doesn't go out of his way to disclose it either...

He's about the smartest non-college (other than the Way College) educated guy I know.

Yea, I suppose my problem is that in the short time I spent with him, I did hot have enough time to observe this fully; plus TWI HQ may not have been the best environment to see how versatile he is.

You don't suppose you could delete the "non-college educated" part and still have your statement be true, could you?

But, you might be surprised in my baseball environment not only how many players and coaches don't know these rules, but even fellow umpires (At the level I have been working at in recent years, I am the senior old fart (in experience as well as age) of the group.

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Yea, I suppose my problem is that in the short time I spent with him, I did hot have enough time to observe this fully; plus TWI HQ may not have been the best environment to see how versatile he is.

You don't suppose you could delete the "non-college educated" part and still have your statement be true, could you?

But, you might be surprised in my baseball environment not only how many players and coaches don't know these rules, but even fellow umpires (At the level I have been working at in recent years, I am the senior old fart (in experience as well as age) of the group.

If I did THAT, I'd have to remove the strikethrough from the word "about."

Which would, in no way, be demeaning to Simon.

Apparently, they are going to attempt to finish game 5 tonight.

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We get a half hour pep talk first---- :)

Hope the weathers good in Philly its like a damn blizzard where I am....

mid 80s here as I type this... and I don't get the "pep talk" until 7pm mountain time... about an hour and a half from now...

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Well, no snow here Mstar. Not a flake. You are way up in those pretty hills though. Just got the wood stoves cranking this week. Cozy--wish I was more into this series. At least it is baseball--but will be over very soon.

Getting that winter blah just hearing about the snow so close by---- :(

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I really really don't like that baseball is played in such cold weather... it's sacreligous I tell ya...

whatever happened to those days when we took our transistor radios to school with the earplugs running up inside our shirts, hidden until they popped out to snake their ways to our ears?

Lidge is looking pretty good...

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I really really don't like that baseball is played in such cold weather... it's sacreligous I tell ya...

whatever happened to those days when we took our transistor radios to school with the earplugs running up inside our shirts, hidden until they popped out to snake their ways to our ears?

Lidge is looking pretty good...

I agree wit you on those two points!

It is FINISHED.

The 2008 MLB season is HISTORY.

How many days until pitchers and catchers report?

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Watching the celebration never gets old --Fox did a nice bit focussing on each Philly during the last out

best part ----the entire stadium booing Bud Selig mercilessly :biglaugh:

LOL!!--you got love Philly!!

Yeah... Bud earns that. Who better to give it to him, eh?

And depending on what day pitchers and catchers report, it's roughly 110 days until mid-February 2009.

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--Ive been working on next season for a coupla weeks now!

---soon as we figure out who kicked that field goal--it should be in full force

I know It wasnt me

Aw, cmon, nobody should need any more hints!

I've given up on trying to figure out the Indians ahead of time. Dunno why nobody knew how to hit until the second half of the season when it was too late.

When Cabrera got his unassisted TP, I think it was in May, all it did was save Cliff Lee from a loss. The Tribe scored only one run in that game and lost it in extra innings after Lee left.

Of course one thing I can do in the offseason is come up with more umpiring quizzes to keep you on your toes; hopefully there is someone besides Simon who is good on the rules

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Rocky and Lifted...You two are very kind...Thank you....

Lifted, I'm guessing either you or Martindale kiched that field goal....

You know, Lifted, in your hypothetical question, I was reminded of two MLB instances where outs happened so fast that in spite of the heads-up playing of the players involved, they were a little confused...

One was a few years ago when the Yanks were playing the Red Sox (and I'm sure Mstar will remember) and the Bosox had the bases loaded with none out...Batter grounded a smash down the third base line that A-Rod snared and fell on third base---and had no choice but to force the runner out from second...Then he got up, threw to home, and the catcher was heads up enough to know he now had to tag the runner out coming home because of the force...After the catcher tagged the runner out at home, he saw the runner who was on second, running to third, and threw back to third where A-Rod applied the tag, looked at the ump for the call, and the ump just laughed with a "he's already out, dummy" look on his face....

Another, was when, I think it was shortstop Troy Tulowitzski, who turned an unassisted triple play for the Rockies...Tulo ran in and to his left to spear a line drive off the hitter, and after catching it had so much momentum that he probably would have hurt himself had he tried skipping over second base instead of letting his foot cross over it naturally, and with his momentum still carrying him after stepping on second base, noticed he was about to bump into a player with a gray unifom on and no glove in his hand, so to avoid a hard collision, stuck his fielder's glove (that he hadn't yet had the time to take the ball out of) between himself and this other gentleman to soften the impact so neither of them would get hurt..After all of that, Tulowitzski, being the heads-up SS that he is and being taught in little league to try and double off a runner after catching a line drive, looked around to see who he might be able to double-off and noticed nobody on first, and then threw it there,...sort of confusedly and then maybe realized, or maybe somebody told him, that he had just become one of the dozen or so players in Major League history to turn an unassisted triple play....

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Rocky and Lifted...You two are very kind...Thank you....

Lifted, I'm guessing either you or Martindale kiched that field goal....

You know, Lifted, in your hypothetical question, I was reminded of two MLB instances where outs happened so fast that in spite of the heads-up playing of the players involved, they were a little confused...

One was a few years ago when the Yanks were playing the Red Sox (and I'm sure Mstar will remember) and the Bosox had the bases loaded with none out...Batter grounded a smash down the third base line that A-Rod snared and fell on third base---and had no choice but to force the runner out from second...Then he got up, threw to home, and the catcher was heads up enough to know he now had to tag the runner out coming home because of the force...After the catcher tagged the runner out at home, he saw the runner who was on second, running to third, and threw back to third where A-Rod applied the tag, looked at the ump for the call, and the ump just laughed with a "he's already out, dummy" look on his face....

Another, was when, I think it was shortstop Troy Tulowitzski, who turned an unassisted triple play for the Rockies...Tulo ran in and to his left to spear a line drive off the hitter, and after catching it had so much momentum that he probably would have hurt himself had he tried skipping over second base instead of letting his foot cross over it naturally, and with his momentum still carrying him after stepping on second base, noticed he was about to bump into a player with a gray unifom on and no glove in his hand, so to avoid a hard collision, stuck his fielder's glove (that he hadn't yet had the time to take the ball out of) between himself and this other gentleman to soften the impact so neither of them would get hurt..After all of that, Tulowitzski, being the heads-up SS that he is and being taught in little league to try and double off a runner after catching a line drive, looked around to see who he might be able to double-off and noticed nobody on first, and then threw it there,...sort of confusedly and then maybe realized, or maybe somebody told him, that he had just become one of the dozen or so players in Major League history to turn an unassisted triple play....

Yea, Simon, well, you know I was 8th corps, and I mentioned the FG won the game for the staff, so you could have eliminated me. Your other guess is correct.

BTW, despite not having played organized football, I could kick a field goal; have practiced them...but no more than 35 yards, even with nobody rushing.

Being a Penn Stater, I remember my first year there, with the Lions having an unbeaten season, and watching the Orange Bowl where they beat Kansas when the Jayhawks has 12 players on the field when the two point conversion initially failed. Later, I remember LCM telling us at Emporia how he had been on that Kansas team.

That catcher probably either realized right after his throw that he was trying to catch an already out runner, or in making the play at the plate, couldn't be sure that it was that runner or the runner originally on first coming around. With the play happening so quickly, the latter seems unlikely, but possible.

Years ago I was a Washington Senators fan when Ron Hansen did the unassisted TP thing for them.

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uh oh. The Yankees are expressing 'interest' in Manny.

I question the Dodgers desire to sign him, as amazing as that sounds after what he accomplished in 2 months. The 2 year deal is quite generous but they know he wants a long term contract. He'd generate enough revenue in a year to cover 4 years in my opinion, but I'm afraid he's going elsewhere.

Manny in pinstripes would certainly give them the kick in the pants they need, at least in the short term. I can't imagine trouble not brewing long before the contract is over. The Yankees really need to go younger.

Having said that, if the Dodgers are too inept to do the right thing, it would be fun watching Manny on the Yankees, at least for awhile. I know I'm the only one in here that thinks so.

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it would be fun watching Manny on the Yankees, at least for awhile. I know I'm the only one in here that thinks so.

Not really, if you use that terminology. It would be fun to watch.

Now where is Barack when you need him? We need a little redistribution of wealth in this sport!

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This sounds like another jab at the Yankees and their money-which hasn't won too many championships for a few years, anyway.

Let's see-the Dodgers,Angels, Mets, Red and White Sox, , just for starters, are big market, big money teams, willing and able to pay big bucks when they want to. I don't think it's a cooincidence that most of these teams compete with other teams in the same market. In a perfect world it would be great if the Yankees were to scale back to a Twins like payroll. They'd be watching the Mets grab the NY market, but it would make those who don't care happy.

Speaking of redistribution of wealth, Joe Maddon was thanking the Yankees and Red Sox for supplying the Rays with the very redistribution referred to.

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I missed that--I'd be curious what he had to say...

The Rays played it smart taking their time building by draft choices..The AL East is a tough competive market with the Yanks, Rays, Red Sox... and the Blue jays are nothing to sneeze at either...This offseason will be interesting to see how each team plays their hand....for the future or for next season...balancing that is always tough.

It eventually worked (for me) that the Yanks decimated their farm system during the years they opted to sign the big free agents. As much as I wouldnt want to see a Yankee lineup with Manny and Arod back to back, I would wonder how much Manny's playing would revert if he werent playing for a contract. Plus NY is a tougher fanbase and media market to deal with-- Maybe it would absolutely nothing, but he could be fickle and be a 20HR/80 RBI guy instead of 40/135 and the Yanks could be stuck at 30m for 4 years.

Its really hard to tell, if the first round draft choice they give up would be more valuable in a few years than what could be an aging moody guy. Its a very tough call.

No matter what happens and the moves that are made this division will be tough next year, no one is going to stand pat.

I know Boras is going to go for the biggest money with Manny but he seemed to really love his time in LA --hopefully the Dodgers'll figure some way to leverage the California lifestyle and big MannyLove out there to him in the deal and keep him over on that coast. I dont know how it was in LA exactly but Manny plays best when its fun for him, NY is tough town --the first time he goes into a slump or dogs a flyball--he'll be hearing a chorus of boos that can last for weeks..He has played there enough to know that--

-Whether intangibles like that will have an effect on where he signs --who knows? This is Manny where talking about--no one knows what he'll do next

Edited by mstar1
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