Why is it, that Christian organizations are so divided?
I wished I had a deeply spiritual answer... but I don't. I've often pondered why an all-knowing God would leave us with such a confusing state of our religion, and I don't have an answer. The easy way out is to say that Satan caused all the confusion, but I'm not sure I can buy into that..
Maybe that is why God had to make things simple for us. Why being saved is by grace and by believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior etc. God knew we could/would mess up anything else.
Of course, it's still so sad the state of most churches/denominations is where its at.
Why is it, that Christian organizations are so divided?
I don't know-it seems like every group has their pet thing that they elevate and people that are along the same type of lines gravitate to that.
There's the speaking in tongues groups, the help the poor groups, the traditions and rituals groups, the more intellectual groups, and the more emotional groups....blah blahblah, bubublahblah...and for one reason or another they each become 'right' in their own eyes and other groups (can) become suspect.
Its too bad--personally I would think that people would want to search outside of their comfortably accepted norms, break the barriers at least a little bit and find out what their 'brother and sisters' in the body are doing that they can learn from instead of attack.
I don't belong to any groups--but over the last few years I have found a bit of solace at times volunteering at a human service agancy which is supported by a mixture of faith traditions. That to me has been sort of refreshing to be involved with people from all sorts of spiritual (or nonspiritual for that matter) backgrounds working together for a common good and not fighting over who has the corner on truth
Groucho... excellent post. You succinctly put down what I've been thinking for years, and have tried to explain to others with varied success... whenever you get a group of people together, you suddenly need a leader, and hierarchy and before long the group's actions focus more on keeping the group going, than on serving its members.
There are two types of human associations, tribes and families. (I'm not talking about biological families here, but family-like groups.)
Religions generally seem to begin as "family" (non-political and cooperative) but evolve into a tribe (political and competitive).
The reason is that we all have both components (family/tribe) within us, but some of us are more opportunistic than others. As the most opportunistic establish hierarchies within the family group, others perceive the trend and respond in kind.
I wonder if a "family" model can survive without a powerful, and present, parental authority. Without that, the tribal structure is required to sustain and perpetuate itself, or the self-interest of "alpha members" (charismatic, leader-types) will pull it apart in every direction.
As an example, Wierwille may have been content with "TWI I's" casual family style until he noticed some young Turks rising up around him bringing in money and stealing the glory.
The bottom line is that every religion is a virtual personality cult, with some trappings of the original family structure, but in all other ways tribal (political, in other words) through and through. If they don't "go tribal," they are pulled apart by the gravitational force of individual personalities.
It is TWI's tribe ("TWIBE?") with which we have our greatest differences. A tribe exploits the political forces which pull families apart, by placing them into a hierarchy, and by organizing and regimenting its members. In a family, the least member is as important as the greatest, but in tribes individuals become expendable.
This is not intended to be cynical. It's just human nature, the result of eons of evolution. Or if you prefer "Creation," the result of eons of sin. We prefer not to acknowledge this, at our own expense.
I wished I had a deeply spiritual answer... but I don't. I've often pondered why an all-knowing God would leave us with such a confusing state of our religion, and I don't have an answer.
Well, I think I have an answer, but I'll spare you...
according to many models of human development/evolution/sin
once a person or group leaves the first self-centered egoic stage
they enter the second, group-think stage
were we learn how to be family and tribe
problems/pathology comes in when one goes from stage one to stage two
and excludes the realities of that first stage
or when a person/group suppresses the value of all phases but their favorite stage
when the truth is, when all stages are present and active now
its like we are to somehow experience our first stab at a mythical hierarchy
then move beyond to hierarchy based on survival, family, friendlies
then to a more scientific hierarchy based on merit
then to a non-hierarchy, pluralism
then back to another less mythical, post-rational hierarchy, more as useful neutral frame rather than "the truth"
and so forth
a common problem is when all notions of hierarchy (such as body/soul/spirit) are outright rejected simply because we got burned by our first mythical and familial hierarchies
...
i hear ya Groucho
ive put a few ten-thousand miles behind the wheel last year
doing art shows in big motels
family reunions in MO
and other travelling
i cannot count the variety of mini-cults i see in this country
small group sub-isolationism, or something
based on that ideal of sacred mythical membership
all "others" are always suspect
same is true for most other world religions, though
so many singing "Buddha loves me, this i know, because the Sutra tells me so..."
stuck in the mythic translative level of their own tradition
meanwhile, the richer transformative aspects of each religion remain kinda buried underneath
a smaller percentage of each of them
...
point is, not all religion leads to corruption
not all groupthink leads to a cult
not all heirarchies have the same intentionallity
not all "schooling" is destined to become a pack of wolves
Of course this is all anecdotal or based on my experience, but for me at the heart of a cult is control. The group think, corruption, heirarchies, wolves in sheeps clothing are all just symptoms of the control and the pressure to conform.
Having said that, I think most if not all (again just extrapolating my limited observation) religions have cult like characteristics.
Being an artist kinda fuels this sort of anti-conformist and distaste for control, I suppose. I do understand the need for certain limits of course and for having rules for social interaction to a degree, and I understand that it is virtually impossible to be yourself without referencing all your experiences and personal relations. I know we become the sum of our absorbtion. Although, I think when it comes to the pressure to act a certain way or a pressure to think a certain way or a pressure to change who you are for no other reason than a major uncertainty, we are talking cultish control. I don't blame people for wanting or needing that pressure to change. As I said we become a sum of our absorbtion and sometimes we need to be squeezed to get some of the bad stuff out. There is a possitive way to do that and a negative way to do that. There are real reasons for the need for that change and there are fictional ones.
IMO, a tribe is an extended family that you have to live with, and I don't know if I have been in or seen a family where all were equal. In any family, immediate or extended, there are politics and there is a degree of control. I think the very idea of God in most religions that I know is prone to, if not designed for cult developement. IMO it is not so much the family/tribe evolution as it is a trasfomation of a conservative and useful form of control to a liberal and negative use of control (and I ain't talkin' politics).
The answer is simple: Division is caused by "evil"
Debbil Birrets
To quote a scripture:
1 Timothy 6:10  For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Seems to me that the body of Christ functions on a "different level" than man made organizations...not to say that an organization can't be a useful "tool" for the Lord's use...I imagine that some are more "useful" than others...but nevertheless, spirituality needs to come in an individual way...
Tribes/Families...sure, the herding dynamics of us pitiful humans and how we interact...ego's, power hungry jerks, nice folks...all of it...I suppose that's one reason that the bible leaves out any mention of orgaizations when it comes to describing the body of Christ...
...and also describes why Christian groups are so divided.
Sounds like you need to find another church. :)--> They're not all like you describe. I know it's easy for me to say, living in the land of the mega-church, but there is good to be found.
Maybe they need a renegade like you to shake them up a little? I know, been there, done that, but it's not always a total waste. You could be the best thing that's come along in a while.
The Way Tree...one of my favorite subjects. Not only did Wierwille take the place of the absent Christ, but the way tree took the place of the spiritual body of Christ...Instead of the Lord directing his body, it was Wierwille managing the hierarchy...money from the classes, money from the roa, money from all the advances...money, money and more money...let's buy some jets and a castle in Scottland!
What a scam the waytree was...super egos abounded, people were subjugated and controlled...
Now that one was especially fun to read in my best Groucho Marx voice. money, money money, and more money. LOL I crack myself up....well, with your help of course.
"God handed down the truth, and the Devil said,"Let me organize it." Where there is ego you will always have division.
It's interesting that the Far Eastern religious Philosophies have very little if any judgement about eachother or outside beliefs; i.e Christianity. Their whole system is to strive twards a onement with God , nature, soicity and eachother. They just figure that when there is misunderstandings or questionings of "What is life?", it's comming from that persons level of consciousness. Nothing is ever taken personally. There goal is personal enlightenment, first and formost.. What is Christianities goal?
We live in a society of Materialism. And everyhting in advertisement is geared to feed the ego,i.e instint gradification. Christianity even in its purist form is Doomed from the very start. We in this Western society are way to self-involved and ego based. It only takes one person to divide. So ..."Why division?"
I think we can learn soomething from Hinduism or Toasim. Why do they seem to generate more Peace then Christians? What is it that they understand about life and living that we in the Western Hemisphere don't understand? Without being a critic of what is so different in beliefs...Why not be the seeker and ask, "What makes for the harmony they expierance!"
I think living in the U.S.A is a great thing. But I also believe it has its disadvantages too. Spirituallity takes hard work in our culture/society and not everyone is honest and up for the task. Especially if its at the expence of ego.
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Jim
I wished I had a deeply spiritual answer... but I don't. I've often pondered why an all-knowing God would leave us with such a confusing state of our religion, and I don't have an answer. The easy way out is to say that Satan caused all the confusion, but I'm not sure I can buy into that..
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smurfette
Maybe that is why God had to make things simple for us. Why being saved is by grace and by believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior etc. God knew we could/would mess up anything else.
Of course, it's still so sad the state of most churches/denominations is where its at.
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mstar1
I don't know-it seems like every group has their pet thing that they elevate and people that are along the same type of lines gravitate to that.
There's the speaking in tongues groups, the help the poor groups, the traditions and rituals groups, the more intellectual groups, and the more emotional groups....blah blahblah, bubublahblah...and for one reason or another they each become 'right' in their own eyes and other groups (can) become suspect.
Its too bad--personally I would think that people would want to search outside of their comfortably accepted norms, break the barriers at least a little bit and find out what their 'brother and sisters' in the body are doing that they can learn from instead of attack.
I don't belong to any groups--but over the last few years I have found a bit of solace at times volunteering at a human service agancy which is supported by a mixture of faith traditions. That to me has been sort of refreshing to be involved with people from all sorts of spiritual (or nonspiritual for that matter) backgrounds working together for a common good and not fighting over who has the corner on truth
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TheHighWay
Groucho... excellent post. You succinctly put down what I've been thinking for years, and have tried to explain to others with varied success... whenever you get a group of people together, you suddenly need a leader, and hierarchy and before long the group's actions focus more on keeping the group going, than on serving its members.
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krys
Perhaps it's because "...we have this treasure in earthen vessels..."
I'm not usually one to quote scriptures anywhere, but this seems to supply the perfect answer.
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satori001
There are two types of human associations, tribes and families. (I'm not talking about biological families here, but family-like groups.)
Religions generally seem to begin as "family" (non-political and cooperative) but evolve into a tribe (political and competitive).
The reason is that we all have both components (family/tribe) within us, but some of us are more opportunistic than others. As the most opportunistic establish hierarchies within the family group, others perceive the trend and respond in kind.
I wonder if a "family" model can survive without a powerful, and present, parental authority. Without that, the tribal structure is required to sustain and perpetuate itself, or the self-interest of "alpha members" (charismatic, leader-types) will pull it apart in every direction.
As an example, Wierwille may have been content with "TWI I's" casual family style until he noticed some young Turks rising up around him bringing in money and stealing the glory.
The bottom line is that every religion is a virtual personality cult, with some trappings of the original family structure, but in all other ways tribal (political, in other words) through and through. If they don't "go tribal," they are pulled apart by the gravitational force of individual personalities.
It is TWI's tribe ("TWIBE?") with which we have our greatest differences. A tribe exploits the political forces which pull families apart, by placing them into a hierarchy, and by organizing and regimenting its members. In a family, the least member is as important as the greatest, but in tribes individuals become expendable.
This is not intended to be cynical. It's just human nature, the result of eons of evolution. Or if you prefer "Creation," the result of eons of sin. We prefer not to acknowledge this, at our own expense.
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George Aar
Jim,
Well, I think I have an answer, but I'll spare you...
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satori001
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sirguessalot
ok, pardon the geek mode....
according to many models of human development/evolution/sin
once a person or group leaves the first self-centered egoic stage
they enter the second, group-think stage
were we learn how to be family and tribe
problems/pathology comes in when one goes from stage one to stage two
and excludes the realities of that first stage
or when a person/group suppresses the value of all phases but their favorite stage
when the truth is, when all stages are present and active now
its like we are to somehow experience our first stab at a mythical hierarchy
then move beyond to hierarchy based on survival, family, friendlies
then to a more scientific hierarchy based on merit
then to a non-hierarchy, pluralism
then back to another less mythical, post-rational hierarchy, more as useful neutral frame rather than "the truth"
and so forth
a common problem is when all notions of hierarchy (such as body/soul/spirit) are outright rejected simply because we got burned by our first mythical and familial hierarchies
...
i hear ya Groucho
ive put a few ten-thousand miles behind the wheel last year
doing art shows in big motels
family reunions in MO
and other travelling
i cannot count the variety of mini-cults i see in this country
small group sub-isolationism, or something
based on that ideal of sacred mythical membership
all "others" are always suspect
same is true for most other world religions, though
so many singing "Buddha loves me, this i know, because the Sutra tells me so..."
stuck in the mythic translative level of their own tradition
meanwhile, the richer transformative aspects of each religion remain kinda buried underneath
a smaller percentage of each of them
...
point is, not all religion leads to corruption
not all groupthink leads to a cult
not all heirarchies have the same intentionallity
not all "schooling" is destined to become a pack of wolves
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TheHighWay
QUOTE:
point is, not all religion leads to corruption
not all groupthink leads to a cult
not all heirarchies have the same intentionallity
not all "schooling" is destined to become a pack of wolves
No, but a hefty enough percentage of them do to keep me away!!
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johniam
Hell yes! It always rankled me when church groups would call TWI a cult when they were the same way. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
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mstar1
I am intrigued by many of these replies--bits and parts to sort through that make sense from different perspectives
IMO Geo's nonanswer answer may or may not be the truest
One time in my life i would love to hear that quote from a pulpit
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nandon
its a business
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lindyhopper
Of course this is all anecdotal or based on my experience, but for me at the heart of a cult is control. The group think, corruption, heirarchies, wolves in sheeps clothing are all just symptoms of the control and the pressure to conform.
Having said that, I think most if not all (again just extrapolating my limited observation) religions have cult like characteristics.
Being an artist kinda fuels this sort of anti-conformist and distaste for control, I suppose. I do understand the need for certain limits of course and for having rules for social interaction to a degree, and I understand that it is virtually impossible to be yourself without referencing all your experiences and personal relations. I know we become the sum of our absorbtion. Although, I think when it comes to the pressure to act a certain way or a pressure to think a certain way or a pressure to change who you are for no other reason than a major uncertainty, we are talking cultish control. I don't blame people for wanting or needing that pressure to change. As I said we become a sum of our absorbtion and sometimes we need to be squeezed to get some of the bad stuff out. There is a possitive way to do that and a negative way to do that. There are real reasons for the need for that change and there are fictional ones.
IMO, a tribe is an extended family that you have to live with, and I don't know if I have been in or seen a family where all were equal. In any family, immediate or extended, there are politics and there is a degree of control. I think the very idea of God in most religions that I know is prone to, if not designed for cult developement. IMO it is not so much the family/tribe evolution as it is a trasfomation of a conservative and useful form of control to a liberal and negative use of control (and I ain't talkin' politics).
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LornaDoone
The answer is simple: Division is caused by "evil"
Debbil Birrets
To quote a scripture:
1 Timothy 6:10  For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
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Kevlar2000
Hmmm, Lorna, could division also be caused by...differences of opinion?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Seems to me that the body of Christ functions on a "different level" than man made organizations...not to say that an organization can't be a useful "tool" for the Lord's use...I imagine that some are more "useful" than others...but nevertheless, spirituality needs to come in an individual way...
Tribes/Families...sure, the herding dynamics of us pitiful humans and how we interact...ego's, power hungry jerks, nice folks...all of it...I suppose that's one reason that the bible leaves out any mention of orgaizations when it comes to describing the body of Christ...
...and also describes why Christian groups are so divided.
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satori001
Hey wait a minute!! You mean the "Way Tree" isn't in the bible??
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Kevlar2000
Sure it is - it's the one Adam and Eve had a problem with.
;)-->
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nandon
i've seen people literally get into fist fights (without alcohol or drugs in their system) over football.
-->
and thats just a sport.
so i guess we can only expect more division in something as important as who we are supposed to give 10% of our income to
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ex10
Groucho,
Sounds like you need to find another church.
:)--> They're not all like you describe. I know it's easy for me to say, living in the land of the mega-church, but there is good to be found.
Maybe they need a renegade like you to shake them up a little? I know, been there, done that, but it's not always a total waste. You could be the best thing that's come along in a while.
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GrouchoMarxJr
The Way Tree...one of my favorite subjects. Not only did Wierwille take the place of the absent Christ, but the way tree took the place of the spiritual body of Christ...Instead of the Lord directing his body, it was Wierwille managing the hierarchy...money from the classes, money from the roa, money from all the advances...money, money and more money...let's buy some jets and a castle in Scottland!
What a scam the waytree was...super egos abounded, people were subjugated and controlled...
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lindyhopper
Now that one was especially fun to read in my best Groucho Marx voice. money, money money, and more money. LOL I crack myself up....well, with your help of course.
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imbus
"God handed down the truth, and the Devil said,"Let me organize it." Where there is ego you will always have division.
It's interesting that the Far Eastern religious Philosophies have very little if any judgement about eachother or outside beliefs; i.e Christianity. Their whole system is to strive twards a onement with God , nature, soicity and eachother. They just figure that when there is misunderstandings or questionings of "What is life?", it's comming from that persons level of consciousness. Nothing is ever taken personally. There goal is personal enlightenment, first and formost.. What is Christianities goal?
We live in a society of Materialism. And everyhting in advertisement is geared to feed the ego,i.e instint gradification. Christianity even in its purist form is Doomed from the very start. We in this Western society are way to self-involved and ego based. It only takes one person to divide. So ..."Why division?"
I think we can learn soomething from Hinduism or Toasim. Why do they seem to generate more Peace then Christians? What is it that they understand about life and living that we in the Western Hemisphere don't understand? Without being a critic of what is so different in beliefs...Why not be the seeker and ask, "What makes for the harmony they expierance!"
I think living in the U.S.A is a great thing. But I also believe it has its disadvantages too. Spirituallity takes hard work in our culture/society and not everyone is honest and up for the task. Especially if its at the expence of ego.
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