As for this thread though.. with above post in mind, it makes me wonder how in the world W*yn* and J*hn and crew ended up being really nice guys, after going through the snake-pit of TWI.
Turning questions around on people was a witnessing technique taught in TWI. I remember that from my Wow year. It helped you to wiggle out of discussions about things that might be deal breakers to getting them in the class.
Its hardly a surprise that even a simple,basic inquiry about a specific splinter would spawn a more general discussion about the efficacy of Way offshoots. After all these groups are first generation derivatives of TWI so what thinking ex-Way person would not wonder if stepping into a relationship with one of these groups is a wise thing to do. One shouldn't expect the forum to suspend discussions on CFF or any other Way derivative simply because an offshoot participant feels that its demeaning or insulting to do so. (This reminds me of the Wierwille loyalist who seeks to stop critical discussions of VPW on the basis that its rude to speak ill of the dead).
If a person wants to "fellowship" with XYZ Way offshoot then have it it but don't be surprised or offended if not everyone thinks highly of the group or posts with questions about the general appeal of the group. There are people here who do find some good in them and I'm sure they will kick in their 2 cents to reflect their experience but in general I don't find them seeking to block meaningful exchange on the purpose of the offshoots.
In my view (speaking ONLY for myself at this point ) - I think that anything that is derivative of TWI is not for me so I don't need to go to each group to see if they are "right on" or "tapped in" or "working the word". TWI for me had massive problems in many different areas including the general behavior and attitudes that existed.
So the various cosmetic "fixups" , minor adjustments, and "errata" that each splinter might have applied to and issued against various points of Way theology could never be enough to make Way teachings appealing
since the bulk of the foundational material was stolen from other sources yet there are so many who still refuse to acknowlwedge that. Furthermore I've spoken with splinter members and I still observe the attitudes of entitlement and arrogance that was so characteristic of TWI mindset that no church other than your group is valid. I'm aware of least one splinter that thinks all others are counterfeits so the dysfunction of the parent is now in the child. No thanks. I don't want to be in the vicinity of that poisonous thinking.
Some of the people who run the splinters were total P***ks while in TWI and have yet to issue even miminal apologies to people they hurt yet they expect people to support them as full time clergy so they can continue to exist as they did while in TWI ? It seems to me that if anything its the obligation of the splinter group to make a strong and convincing case that they are sufficiently different from TWI to warrant a closer look. After all they need me (more specifically my money) a great deal more than I need them. They should be reaching out, cutting your grass, babysitting your children, cooking your meals becaues God knows they got that tons of that type of free labor from many here. But you won't get apologies or acknowledgements of wrong doing from leaders who are so far down the wrong road that they think if they stay on it long enough it'll intersect with the right road.
So on a human level these groups and their leaders have a lot of owning up to do. Just because they left TWI or were M&Aed or doesn't mean that the reset button has been pushed and that the influences and attitudes of TWI just disappeared. Highly unlikely.
"I think someone here had called the offshoots in general a halfway house of sorts."
I'm the person who said some offshoots can be a half way houe to "un-waybrain".
What I mean by that is for those who left TWI and still have the "waybrain" attitude, some offshoots can offer a sense of familiarity.
Some offshoots have attempted to correct the erroneous TWI doctrines, so when you fellowship with them, you start to think, which can lead to "un-waybraining" your mind.
My experience with CFF was that I got involved with them at their inception around 96/97, the people involved were wonderful, loving and caring. My biggest complaint with them was they praised Wierwille, often referring to him as "father in the Word" or "Man of God".
Since I knew Wierwille was a plagerist, adulterer, liar, drunkard and taught many erroneous doctrines, this was a big turn off.
But of all the offshoots I checked out CFF definately had the nicest folks involved, and John Shroyer is one of the most caring, loving and sincere leaders I've ever met.
I haven't been involved with CFF since late 97 so it's very possible things have changed.
When they first started, they were attempting to become like TWI of the 70's. And they very much were.
For me, when I left TWI I just couldn't bring myself to go to a church, due to my still being waybrained, I just didn't trust churches, so offshoots offered a place to fellowship.
After a while, I felt that offshoots were not the place God wanted me to be at and began checking out churches.
I found that some of the churches were great, and I had been wrong about church.
My advice Smurfette, is check out different offshoots, listen to the teachings that differ from what TWI taught and check the Word to see if these things are so.
CES(Jal, Scheonheit) has something like 25 different doctrines then TWI, CBC(VF) teaches several differences then TWI such as administrations and LMCI(Dale Sides) teaches almost everything different then TWI.
I certainly don't buy into everything they teach, but they will make you think.
Try going to CFF fellowship, and some of the others, and see if it's where you want to be.
I did, Merriam-Webster On Line, a pretty good one. So, assuming that it's an actual word, and not one you made up, or spelled incorrectly, what does "dissitate" mean?
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As for this thread though.. with above post in mind, it makes me wonder how in the world W*yn* and J*hn and crew ended up being really nice guys, after going through the snake-pit of TWI.
Miracles DO occur..
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Bramble
Stating a belief is Pushing? Since when?
Hey--here's a big one. I believe caffiene is unhealthy!!!
Now, I bet I just influenced a ton of posters here to quit caffiene!!!
Oh the power I have! If I'd only known earlier!
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WordWolf
Allan said
Bramble challenge Allan's assertion of 'pushing' beliefs...
rascal agreed with Bramble...
Allan replied to them both...
Those paying attention may notice that Allan asserted that non-Christians were
pushing their POV, and then one non-Christian challenged him to find one place she
did so-thus challenging his claim. Allan then dodged the challenge
(refusing to acknowledge that HE said she was pushing her POV, and asked her to
find one place he did.
Now, I CAN find it, but I'd rather see Allan answer BRAMBLE's question FIRST.
She asked him FIRST, he REFUSED to answer, then turned the SAME question on her.
====
BTW, Allan?
"Pushing one's beliefs" is not "debating".
Dictionary.com lists definitions of "debate" as
1-To consider something; deliberate.
2-To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
3-To engage in a formal discussion or argument.
"Formal arguments", BTW, are not "yelling at each other",
which some people call an argument.
Any Monty Python fan should be able to tell you that an 'argument' is a
series of statements intended to establish a proposition.'
Dictionary.com says it's
"a course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood".
=========
Hm,
now we have the latest "sole defender of the faith" here.
Please note, everyone, that he has now said
as of 8/17/05 5:33pm Eastern.
This is sure to come up again, especially when he "stops" GSC from
"being overrun by pagans, atheists, new agers and spiritualists."
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Bramble
Turning questions around on people was a witnessing technique taught in TWI. I remember that from my Wow year. It helped you to wiggle out of discussions about things that might be deal breakers to getting them in the class.
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diazbro
Its hardly a surprise that even a simple,basic inquiry about a specific splinter would spawn a more general discussion about the efficacy of Way offshoots. After all these groups are first generation derivatives of TWI so what thinking ex-Way person would not wonder if stepping into a relationship with one of these groups is a wise thing to do. One shouldn't expect the forum to suspend discussions on CFF or any other Way derivative simply because an offshoot participant feels that its demeaning or insulting to do so. (This reminds me of the Wierwille loyalist who seeks to stop critical discussions of VPW on the basis that its rude to speak ill of the dead).
If a person wants to "fellowship" with XYZ Way offshoot then have it it but don't be surprised or offended if not everyone thinks highly of the group or posts with questions about the general appeal of the group. There are people here who do find some good in them and I'm sure they will kick in their 2 cents to reflect their experience but in general I don't find them seeking to block meaningful exchange on the purpose of the offshoots.
In my view (speaking ONLY for myself at this point ) - I think that anything that is derivative of TWI is not for me so I don't need to go to each group to see if they are "right on" or "tapped in" or "working the word". TWI for me had massive problems in many different areas including the general behavior and attitudes that existed.
So the various cosmetic "fixups" , minor adjustments, and "errata" that each splinter might have applied to and issued against various points of Way theology could never be enough to make Way teachings appealing
since the bulk of the foundational material was stolen from other sources yet there are so many who still refuse to acknowlwedge that. Furthermore I've spoken with splinter members and I still observe the attitudes of entitlement and arrogance that was so characteristic of TWI mindset that no church other than your group is valid. I'm aware of least one splinter that thinks all others are counterfeits so the dysfunction of the parent is now in the child. No thanks. I don't want to be in the vicinity of that poisonous thinking.
Some of the people who run the splinters were total P***ks while in TWI and have yet to issue even miminal apologies to people they hurt yet they expect people to support them as full time clergy so they can continue to exist as they did while in TWI ? It seems to me that if anything its the obligation of the splinter group to make a strong and convincing case that they are sufficiently different from TWI to warrant a closer look. After all they need me (more specifically my money) a great deal more than I need them. They should be reaching out, cutting your grass, babysitting your children, cooking your meals becaues God knows they got that tons of that type of free labor from many here. But you won't get apologies or acknowledgements of wrong doing from leaders who are so far down the wrong road that they think if they stay on it long enough it'll intersect with the right road.
So on a human level these groups and their leaders have a lot of owning up to do. Just because they left TWI or were M&Aed or doesn't mean that the reset button has been pushed and that the influences and attitudes of TWI just disappeared. Highly unlikely.
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excathedra
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Oakspear
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Allan
Bramble said "how are you going to stop things being posted.."
I never said I was!!
Wordwolf, do you want to dissitate over 'pushing' versus 'debating'? Get a life mate !!
Sorry, that was a 'rhetorical' 'parambole' of a remote context statement..geeesh.
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karmicdebt
Hey, hey, hey, some of my best friends are
Thank Allah...
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
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Allan
try an English one !!
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Ham
Well, just a "little" thought..
The WHOLE STINKING WORLD is "overrun" by "them".
Pagans, Atheists, Spiritualists, Devil worshippers, Muslims, Catholics, you name it.
And I don't think they are going to relinquish their tiny bit of real estate- on your terms.
I think you are out numbered, fella..
"Good luck"
:)-->
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rascal
Yeah, but no doubt Mr. Hamm, that to the twi way of thinking, Dad loves HIM best....the planet should be relinquished to him on those grounds alone.
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WordWolf
Allan posted the word
Oakspear said
Allan replied
===
http://www.dictionary.com said
Since I'm on the subject, Allan also said
and Dictionary.com said
Allan also used the word
in another thread.Dictionary.com said
which I thought was an interesting coincidence. Since the term seems to have an inconsistent
spelling, one would expect at least one to be wrong. (Or, as is the case, all of them.)
======
Now, someone might think I was taking this too seriously.
To this I say 2 things.
A) I didn't take out a collegiate dictionary, thumb thru it, and post the results, but I
COULD have. This would have required caring enough.
B) I actually WOULD have let the original post go, but Allan WAS the one wrangling about
words...
and when Oakspear pointed out the error, Allan DENIED he made a mistake
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rascal
Ahh, but Word Wolf, since when does a lack of accuracy, honesty, compassion and good character matter when you have GOD on your side?
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Outin88!
Smurfette said;
"I think someone here had called the offshoots in general a halfway house of sorts."
I'm the person who said some offshoots can be a half way houe to "un-waybrain".
What I mean by that is for those who left TWI and still have the "waybrain" attitude, some offshoots can offer a sense of familiarity.
Some offshoots have attempted to correct the erroneous TWI doctrines, so when you fellowship with them, you start to think, which can lead to "un-waybraining" your mind.
My experience with CFF was that I got involved with them at their inception around 96/97, the people involved were wonderful, loving and caring. My biggest complaint with them was they praised Wierwille, often referring to him as "father in the Word" or "Man of God".
Since I knew Wierwille was a plagerist, adulterer, liar, drunkard and taught many erroneous doctrines, this was a big turn off.
But of all the offshoots I checked out CFF definately had the nicest folks involved, and John Shroyer is one of the most caring, loving and sincere leaders I've ever met.
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Outin88!
I haven't been involved with CFF since late 97 so it's very possible things have changed.
When they first started, they were attempting to become like TWI of the 70's. And they very much were.
For me, when I left TWI I just couldn't bring myself to go to a church, due to my still being waybrained, I just didn't trust churches, so offshoots offered a place to fellowship.
After a while, I felt that offshoots were not the place God wanted me to be at and began checking out churches.
I found that some of the churches were great, and I had been wrong about church.
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Outin88!
My advice Smurfette, is check out different offshoots, listen to the teachings that differ from what TWI taught and check the Word to see if these things are so.
CES(Jal, Scheonheit) has something like 25 different doctrines then TWI, CBC(VF) teaches several differences then TWI such as administrations and LMCI(Dale Sides) teaches almost everything different then TWI.
I certainly don't buy into everything they teach, but they will make you think.
Try going to CFF fellowship, and some of the others, and see if it's where you want to be.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i think some people on this thread should forget the java and cocoa and have a nice glass of wine and chill out
allan and white dove
would you like me to send you a chill out pill?
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WhiteDove
No thanks there Coolchef I'm feeling fine quite comfortable thanks! Maybe you should just keep it for yourself.
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Oakspear
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Allan
Mr Hammeroni sais (and yes I checked it was him,because people keep changing their pictures under their pseudenum..sp? )
'the whole stinkin' world is overrun by atheists, pagans, new agers..'
Well..thats why it's so stinkie see !
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Allan
Rascal..for someone who doesn't even know my life what an accusatory, nasty, 'flamey' thing to say !!
And i thought you were such a sweet,well balanced, thinking, person !
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