I've been thinking about this line from the Way Living in Wonderland and it has me puzzled. As we have seen over and over and over again how VP has put things in this book that are half-truths and lies. How he exaggerated the truth to make him look special and certainly 'called out'. That's what got me thinking about this line in the text.
quote:
"The next thing I recall vividly happened when I was eight or nine years old. There was a Mission Festival in New Knoxville. I was sitting with my mother. (The men and women sat separately in those days.) There was a guest minister that day, a certain Dr Lohman, and after the sermon-I don't remember much of what he said-we went up to meet him. We shook hands, you know, and he asked me what I wanted to be. I told him, "A man of God like you." That's what I said, but I thought it was just kid's talk. You know how kids talk."
This Dr. Lohman. Did he exist and if he did, did VP really say these things to him? Who would have been there who could have substantiated VP's claim when this was written? Probably no one and VP knew this and used it to his advantage if what I am suggesting is true.
What did VP mean by 'kid's talk'? Did he mean that kids talk like 'I'm gonna be an astronaut, I'm gonna be a ballerina/vetenarian, I wanna be a bull rider, a cowboy'. Is that what he meant that kids say the darndest things? But I think it interesting that he speaks of it but almost in a 3rd person...completely removed as if it wasn't him saying the stuff, but perhaps someone else and he was just an observer that day he met this Dr. Lohman.
That brings me to another question. Was there a Dr. Lohman and did this mission festival really happened in New Knoxville in or around about 1925?
quote:
When in high school, she told me, VPW was a very rough, tough, near-hoodlum type of
person. She told me he would crash parties he wasn't invited to just for spite. It was a
common thing that he would start fights, and usually win. He could win with words and with
his athletic prowess. He was a genius, ruffian, jock, bully.
When this young VPW went into the seminary, the townsfolk and country folk thought he was
going there as a joke just to beat up the seminarians This is one reason his ministry
never got to reach out to these contemporaries of his.
She then told me stories of his young pastorate and how AGAIN he was a terror to those
around him. This is one reason his ministry
never got to reach out to these contemporaries of his.
All of this does not make me think of someone displaying any 'ministerial' tendencies. Even the townsfolk couldn't believe it. So this means that what he had said that day to Dr. Lohman as well as what VP's brother Harry recounts how he used to teach to the trees ... ect... well it sounds like VP kept his aspirations very hush hush to all those around him. Like he almost lived a 'dual' life.
Wierwille seems to portray himself as "good-at-everything": basketball, motorcycle riding (and repair), guitar playing, business ("I was offered a job as Vice-President of AB Dick")...you name it, but that he "gave it all up for The Word"
In many ways these "stow-ries" remind me of the class geek who wants to inflate his importance by telling tales of all the great people he knows and the wonderful adventures he has...when no one else is around.
I thought we'd previously discussed it, but I can't find any
references to such a discussion, so...
In reading this comment, I was reminded (again) of the story and movie,
"the Secret Life of Walter Mitty"-a man who lives great adventures
I've been thinking about this line from the Way Living in Wonderland and it has me puzzled. As we have seen over and over and over again how VP has put things in this book that are half-truths and lies. How he exaggerated the truth to make him look special and certainly 'called out'. That's what got me thinking about this line in the text.
quote:
"The next thing I recall vividly happened when I was eight or nine years old. There was a Mission Festival in New Knoxville. I was sitting with my mother. (The men and women sat separately in those days.) There was a guest minister that day, a certain Dr Lohman, and after the sermon-I don't remember much of what he said-we went up to meet him. We shook hands, you know, and he asked me what I wanted to be. I told him, "A man of God like you." That's what I said, but I thought it was just kid's talk. You know how kids talk."
This Dr. Lohman. Did he exist and if he did, did VP really say these things to him? Who would have been there who could have substantiated VP's claim when this was written? Probably no one and VP knew this and used it to his advantage if what I am suggesting is true.
What did VP mean by 'kid's talk'? Did he mean that kids talk like 'I'm gonna be an astronaut, I'm gonna be a ballerina/vetenarian, I wanna be a bull rider, a cowboy'. Is that what he meant that kids say the darndest things? But I think it interesting that he speaks of it but almost in a 3rd person...completely removed as if it wasn't him saying the stuff, but perhaps someone else and he was just an observer that day he met this Dr. Lohman.
That brings me to another question. Was there a Dr. Lohman and did this mission festival really happened in New Knoxville in or around about 1925?
Hm, good point.
I was thinking he was saying he was blowing smoke at the guy and
sucking up. Looking at the overall picture, it seems he meant
something else..
"I am the greatest man of God in 2000 years!
When I was 9 or 10 was when we first saw signs of this!
Then later came miraculous snowstorms and teachings I got
straight from God that you can hear nowhere else!"
quote:
quote:
When in high school, she told me, VPW was a very rough, tough, near-hoodlum type of person. She told me he would crash parties he wasn't invited to just for spite. It was a
common thing that he would start fights, and usually win. He could win with words and with his athletic prowess. He was a genius, ruffian, jock, bully.
When this young VPW went into the seminary, the townsfolk and country folk thought he was going there as a joke just to beat up the seminarians This is one reason his ministry never got to reach out to these contemporaries of his. She then told me stories of his young pastorate and how AGAIN he was a terror to those around him. This is one reason his ministry never got to reach out to these contemporaries of his.
All of this does not make me think of someone displaying any 'ministerial' tendencies. Even the townsfolk couldn't believe it. So this means that what he had said that day to Dr. Lohman as well as what VP's brother Harry recounts how he used to teach to the trees ... etc... well it sounds like VP kept his aspirations very hush hush to all those around him. Like he almost lived a 'dual' life.
-->
Right.
In public,
he was a kid who skipped all his chores, who became a teen who was
an arrogant showoff and bully.
Where no evidence exists (his mind),
he was a devout kid who preached to trees and became some sort
"The people in my congregation in Payne were prosperous and very sensitive on money. When I got there, the elders called me in and told me I had the run of the pulpit, and that I could teach on anything
as long as I never mentioned money.
That first fall, for four Sundays in a row I taught on tithing,
but I didn't once mention money.
And they called me down, right in the basement of the church, and really sounded off at me.
You see, it was that shallowness that so discouraged me.
Hm.
They told him he could do anything EXCEPT ONE,
and that was his immediate UNYIELDING focus,
and they had the nerve to be offended that he went 180 degrees from his instructions.
(ANY church where tithing is taught on for an ENTIRE MONTH looks like it's ONLY
in it for the money, and NOBODY will like it.)
"They said not to teach on money, so I didn't-I taught on tithing."
I'll bet he felt so clever, so pleased with himself for adhering-PARTLY-
to the letter while perverting the spirit of his instructions.
For those wondering if they were right to give him instructions,
they were the ELDERS-the experienced local leaders,
and he was the guy who JUST arrived and was young and lacking in experience.
Unless he had a compelling reason beyond tweaking their noses, he should have
considered their counsel wise and followed it.
pg-185-186. vpw is continuing his tour.
quote:
"This kitchen is where the elders gave it to me for preaching on tithing. They were hotter than fire crackers under the collar. They said, 'We told you-No money!' Then I had to make a stand. I said 'You told me not to mention money, and I didn't mention it once. I mentioned only tithing. Now you mind your business, and I'll mind
mine which is to take care of this church like I think God wants me to take care of it.'
That was it. After that, they didn't bother me anymore, and we had so much money come in, it blew their minds."
"How in the h*ll can you talk about tithing without bringing
money into it?"
quote:
"The people in my congregation in Payne were prosperous and very sensitive on money. When I got there, the elders called me in and told me I had the run of the pulpit, and that I could teach on anything
as long as I never mentioned money.
That first fall, for four Sundays in a row I taught on tithing,
but I didn't once mention money.
And they called me down, right in the basement of the church, and really sounded off at me.
quote:
This kitchen is where the elders gave it to me for preaching on tithing. They were hotter than fire crackers under the collar. They said, 'We told you-No money!' Then I had to make a stand. I said 'You told me not to mention money, and I didn't mention it once. I mentioned only tithing. Now you mind your business, and I'll mind mine which is to take care of this church like I think God wants me to take care of it.'
That was it. After that, they didn't bother me anymore, and we had so much money come in, it blew their minds.
Well, here's how I see this, scrutinizing it now....
According to vpw's account...
He was a BRAND-NEW pastor, RAISING A FAMILY.
The local elders (read "authority figures") tell him he has
a free hand to teach on anything EXCEPT MONEY.
So, that week, he teaches on tithing/money.
(This can jeopardize his job, STARTING as a loose cannon.)
The NEXT week, he teaches on tithing/money.
This WOULD jeopardize his job. He's fixated on doing the
opposite of his one instruction. The church has now sat thru
precisely TWO teachings by the new guy, and BOTH were about
giving money to the church.
What conclusion would a normal person make, sitting in the
pew? "He's in it for the money." It doesn't take a
psychologist or other expert to see that.
What action do the elders take? NOTHING.
The THIRD week, he preaches on tithing/money.
The average parishoner begins to get bitter, and either stops
attending, complains the new guy's a putz, or withholds their
donations.
This SERIOUSLY jeopardizes the health of the church.
What action do the elders take?
NOTHING.
The fourth week, he teaches on tithing/money.
The average parishoner complains about him being a schmuck
on their way out to find a REAL church. Donations are
withheld or given as pocket-change.
FINALLY, the elders take action (between 1-3 weeks after
the AVERAGE council of elders would have taken action.)
They talk to him in the kitchen of the house/ the basement
of the church. He gives them a smart-aleck response,
and they go away, taking no further action.
The church responds by giving MORE money, a LOT more money.
So many of the details make NO sense on further scrutiny.
Might this be another of vpw's fairy tales about how he
tweaked the noses of authority figures? If he is to be
believed, he bucked the system as soon as he arrived, and
mouthed off when he was called on it. According to him, he
succeeded that way.
This shows the frame of mind of what he considers an
APPROPRIATE response. This shows his eagerness to make stuff
up. This shows his eagerness to paint himself as a clever
maverick who swims against the stream and gets effective
results for it.
We know that in real life, he bullied the parishoners, and
got in some trouble with a church for something he did to a
church secretary. We know that in his own mind, he was a
veritable hero who was without faults, so it was the small
minds of the elders that were always wrong.
BTW, it seems that he didn't exactly rehearse this story.
It's got a continuity error. The elders met him in 2 entirely
different locations for the portentuous chat. I didn't even
catch that until now when I compared them side-by-side.
believed, he bucked the system as soon as he arrived, and
mouthed off when he was called on it. According to him, he
succeeded that way.
HOLY HANNAH BATMAN!!!
Can you just imagine if we had tried this with VP?
or this one :
quote:
Now you mind your business, and I'll mind mine which is to take care of this church like I think God wants me to take care of it.'
Ya, say that to VP or one of his trained leaders when they were reproving you about what you should have been teaching or not teaching in the fellowship?
It is quite typical of the narcissistic personality to be mentally lazy, to take shortcuts. He thinks his potential for greatness is equal to deserving the rewards of greatness. He may be the cheater on exams, or the boss who makes everyone else do the work and then takes credit for it, or the scam artist. Although people may do these things and not be narcissists, the truly personality disordered have a pervasive tendency to be armchair quarterbacks, not doers.
It takes years of effort to play the guitar, so if Wierwille picked one up and didn't get good at it fairly quickly, he was happy to associate with a music ministry and "talk shop" with them, or make them change their lyrics and claim his ministry made them great. Did anyone actually hear him play a guitar? We certainly heard him sing -- he couldn't.
It takes years of dedicated practice to play basketball well, so it was easier for Vic to claim an association with a college and pro team and not actually be on one. (I agree, WW, his "associated with" remark could mean anything, and left wiggle room if someone looked it up. When no one did, his lies grew bolder, like "the inventor of the hook shot.") Perhaps he had enough natural talent to compete in high school, but when it came time to actually work at it, it was easier to just say he did after the fact.
It takes years of patient dedication to become a good pastor. But Vic's tendency to buck authority would not let him wait. HE knew how to run a congregation, how dare they tell the man of God what to do! I am sure he embellished the encounter with the elders, but I can certainly see him thwarting their wishes early on. Heck, if they fired him, he could always go back to Dotsie and lie about what happened, and have her go back to nursing.
I remember seeing a picture of him playing the guitar at some family table/roa setting thing...he was wearing shorts with white shoes (Herb Tarlick style) and a cowboy hat. That's the only time I remember ever seeing him have anything to do with any musical instrument. I remember the picture so vividly because I had no clue he played. Now, the guitar he played seemed very small for him...almost a ukelele size.
I think that picture may have actually been in the WAY LIVING IN WONDERLAND...NOT SURE.
quote:
And I used to play the guitar in those days. Two guys and I had a
group together. We'd play and sing at dances and parties. But do you
know something? I felt embarassed about it, or something. So one day
in high school, I just put that guitar in its case and I never took it
out again. I brought 'her' with me to college even. I loved that
guitar, but I just never played it again."
I felt embarassed about it or something? That has 'fishy' written all over it.
NOW, I personally play a little guitar.. and yes, I didn't play for years...and yes I'm NOT that good..but feel embarassed?? HUH???? That is the wierdest thing I have ever heard. I think I felt more embarassed because I neglected playing for so many years...that would be the extent of the embarassment. But not because I played.???? This is bizarro!
This doesn't even fit with what we've read so far about his personality in this book. Embarassed = Having a conscience.
Conscience ??? Now that certainly doesn't fit??? -->
I remember seeing a picture of him playing the guitar at some family table/roa setting thing...he was wearing shorts with white shoes (Herb Tarlick style) and a cowboy hat. That's the only time I remember ever seeing him have anything to do with any musical instrument. I remember the picture so vividly because I had no clue he played. Now, the guitar he played seemed very small for him...almost a ukelele size.
I think that picture may have actually been in the WAY LIVING IN WONDERLAND...NOT SURE.
I shall check and get back to you on this. It doesn't sound
familiar to me and I was just in that thing. The only
conspicuous description I left out was the abortive attempt
at a hand-signal for the group.
quote:
And I used to play the guitar in those days. Two guys and I had a group together. We'd play and sing at dances and parties. But do you know something? I felt embarassed about it, or something. So one day in high school, I just put that guitar in its case and I never took it out again. I brought 'her' with me to college even. I loved that guitar, but I just never played it again."
Having packed before, I'm aware that you don't pack bulky
items you have no intention to use.
If he had packed a guitar, he was going to play it.
If he was embarassed and packed it, he was going to play it
IN PRIVATE. Even HE admitted he didn't play it at all.
Nobody EVER, I mean, EVER, saw him play in the entire run
of the ministry? Does ANYONE think this story even MIGHT
After I met Rosalind Rinker in Indiana, I invited her to visit us in Payne, and she came for a week that summer of 1942. Maybe it was August. I remember it was near
the end of summer, and she used to dog me on the Bible being the Word of God. She talked to me about getting my own life in alignment and harmony with the Bible.
The last night of her stay, she and I went into the church and knelt at the pulpit chairs. I remember I asked God for forgiveness, understanding and love,
and I said if He really wanted me to serve Him, He would have to do something about it for I was at the end of my rope.
Nothing cataclysmic happened then, except that I felt better mentally because I had been making so many negative confessions, and that prayer was the first positive one.
It just washed out a lot of mental debris.
Ok, this was the FIRST time he was ready to quit on God.
End of August, 1942. Those of you following along at home should
Then Rosalind left. It was the fall of the year. Kids were back in school already. It must have been September. I was sitting in my office, an old dentist's office just around the corner from the church where I prayed-I'll show you that too when we get there. I bet you it's still there, though I haven't been back here since I left.
I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on.
For those of you following along at home, that's the SECOND time
vpw was getting ready to chuck the whole thing. So he issues
an ultimatum to the Supreme Creator of the Universe.
Then Rosalind left. It was the fall of the year. Kids were back in school already. It must have been September. I was sitting in my office, an old dentist's office just around the corner from the church where I prayed-I'll show you that too when we get there. I bet you it's still there, though I haven't been back here since I left.
I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on.
And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would
teach it to others.
Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me."
(page-178, since "Nothing cataclysmic...")
Watch this next quote from pg-179.
quote:
"The Word is buried today. If there's no one around to teach it, God has to teach it Himself. You see, I am a product of my times. God knew me before the foundations of the world, just like He knew you and everyone else. We were all in God's
foreknowledge from the beginnings.
God knew I would believe His Word. And every day I am more and more deeply convinced of this ministry which teaches people the accuracy and integrity of God's Word. Without this ministry the world would be in far greater spiritual darkness about His
Word. There would be less light in the world. Where else but in this ministry do you find the Word of God so living and real? This is truly a time of terrific need."
Doctor nods his head abruptly, as if to punctuate his urgency.
"Well, I couldn't believe that God talked to me right then."
pg-180.
quote:
"Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I came to the point by the next day where I said to myself-maybe it's true. So the next day I talked to God again. I said, 'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me yesterday, if that was really you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that I can really know, so that I can believe.'
The sky was crystal blue and clear. Not a cloud in sight. It was a beautiful early autumn day. I said 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were tightly shut as I prayed. And then I
opened them.
The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling station on the corner not 75 feet away." Doctor relates this phenomenon in a joyous voice.
quote:
The overcast sky turns restlessly over our heads and the sparse sprinkling of snowflakes thickens on the windshield. Doctor laughs aloud. "It reminds me of that day in 1942. It reminds me of that other time it snowed."
pg-181.
quote:
At the corner stands the Marathon Gas Station. Doctor shakes his head from side to side. His face breaks into a ready smile. His eyes are blue, laughing or crying. "It reminds me of the day..." he trails off. "That's where I was sitting when I prayed to God to teach me the Word and show me how. And when I opened my eyes, it was snowing so hard I couldn't see those gas pumps right there." He points to the pumps a dozen yards or more from the window.
Plus WordWolf's translation and commentary track...
quote:
"The Word is buried today.
The famous "you can't
find The Word anywhere if I'm not teaching you" stuff, which,
considering he learned ALL his stuff from others, was a
deliberate lie.
quote:
If there's no one around to teach it, God has to teach it Himself.
Translation: So God taught me and not any human.
Considering he was taught face-to-face by Stiles and Leonard,
that's another deliberate lie.
quote:
You see, I am a product of my times. God knew me before the foundations of the world, just like He knew you and everyone else. We were all in God's foreknowledge from the beginnings.
He's going somewhere with this...
quote:
God knew I would believe His Word.
Which is why God taught me.
Considering his story has at least THREE different times when
vpw was ready to quit, that was quite a gamble on God's part.
Do the faithful keep getting ready to quit?
quote:
And every day I am more and more deeply convinced of this ministry which teaches people the accuracy and integrity of God's Word.
Let us not mention Leonard's ministry, who did it
sooner and better.
quote:
Without this ministry the world would be in far greater spiritual darkness about His Word. There would be less light in the world.
Got enough arrogance there?
quote:
Where else but in this ministry do you find the Word of God so living and real?
That depends on where Leonard is
teaching this week. :)-->
This rhetorical question was vpw saying you couldn't learn this
anywhere else on the planet. As you all know, it was a lie-
but a CONSISTENT lie.
quote:
This is truly a time of terrific need."
Doctor nods his head abruptly, as if to punctuate his urgency.
I remember seeing a picture of him playing the guitar at some family table/roa setting thing...he was wearing shorts with white shoes (Herb Tarlick style) and a cowboy hat. That's the only time I remember ever seeing him have anything to do with any musical instrument. I remember the picture so vividly because I had no clue he played. Now, the guitar he played seemed very small for him...almost a ukelele size.
Ala -- I remember that pic too. I think it may be in one of the old way magazines (roa edition -- mid 70's).
I seem to remember that it was a Martin guitar he had. The reason it looks so small, is because it was a 00-18, or 000-18 size -- which is much smaller than the size one sees today.
These days -- the guitars have wide bodies and big *shoulders* (up by the neck where the fretboard joins the body), but the 00-18, and the 000-18 were quite small in comparision. I don't think Martin makes these anymore, but they were hugely popular back in the 20's, and 30's.
I used to have a 000-18 (kicking myself now for having sold it!) :(-->, and yes -- they are small, and almost do look like ukelele. :)-->
Ala you are correct it was at the ROA family table 1974. Now not being a player I will leave the critique up to someone else maybe Socks or Ted. But none the less he did play and sing so the answer is yes I did see him. I remember it also for he same reason as you as I had never seen him with a guitar. Somewhere around I have some pictures of it.
Here's a great statement when he was talking about Rinker and how she pushed him:
...but the Bible is the Word of God... in all my years of school-not believing it anyway.
Note: "Not believing it [the Bible] anyway."
I can't believe he let that slip.
I have often thought he was not born again - here he basically admits with all he education, he did not believe the Bible. This is no wonder, many pastors, reverends and people who make a living pastoring their flocks don't either.
VP's concern was his ministry and his people. His "product" was the Word. It paid off handsomely.
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penworks
I agree that it is "garbage" insofar that it is propaganda. But I think it does have a certain value: it's a good case study on VPW's sick thinking (and lack thereof) and a red flag about the dangers
A la prochaine
If 'Calling him everynight' wasn't enough..then she visited him every weekend ... wowza That's quite the committed individual to Wierwille. What kind of life did she have? Man oh man...I can hard
A la prochaine
WW,
I've been thinking about this line from the Way Living in Wonderland and it has me puzzled. As we have seen over and over and over again how VP has put things in this book that are half-truths and lies. How he exaggerated the truth to make him look special and certainly 'called out'. That's what got me thinking about this line in the text.
This Dr. Lohman. Did he exist and if he did, did VP really say these things to him? Who would have been there who could have substantiated VP's claim when this was written? Probably no one and VP knew this and used it to his advantage if what I am suggesting is true.
What did VP mean by 'kid's talk'? Did he mean that kids talk like 'I'm gonna be an astronaut, I'm gonna be a ballerina/vetenarian, I wanna be a bull rider, a cowboy'. Is that what he meant that kids say the darndest things? But I think it interesting that he speaks of it but almost in a 3rd person...completely removed as if it wasn't him saying the stuff, but perhaps someone else and he was just an observer that day he met this Dr. Lohman.
That brings me to another question. Was there a Dr. Lohman and did this mission festival really happened in New Knoxville in or around about 1925?
All of this does not make me think of someone displaying any 'ministerial' tendencies. Even the townsfolk couldn't believe it. So this means that what he had said that day to Dr. Lohman as well as what VP's brother Harry recounts how he used to teach to the trees ... ect... well it sounds like VP kept his aspirations very hush hush to all those around him. Like he almost lived a 'dual' life.
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WordWolf
I thought we'd previously discussed it, but I can't find any
references to such a discussion, so...
In reading this comment, I was reminded (again) of the story and movie,
"the Secret Life of Walter Mitty"-a man who lives great adventures
in his own mind as he goes about his normal life.
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WordWolf
Hm, good point.
I was thinking he was saying he was blowing smoke at the guy and
sucking up. Looking at the overall picture, it seems he meant
something else..
"I am the greatest man of God in 2000 years!
When I was 9 or 10 was when we first saw signs of this!
Then later came miraculous snowstorms and teachings I got
straight from God that you can hear nowhere else!"
Right.
In public,
he was a kid who skipped all his chores, who became a teen who was
an arrogant showoff and bully.
Where no evidence exists (his mind),
he was a devout kid who preached to trees and became some sort
of star athlete.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
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Oakspear
How in the h*ll can you talk about tithing without bringing money into it?
--> Or can you tithe soemthing other than money in this day and time?
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A la prochaine
Dear Oak,
AREN'T YOU SUPPOSED TO BE AT A WEDDING RIGHT NOW?
-->
I'm telling Susie what you've been up to!!!
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Oakspear
set up is in a half hour...the wedding is in 4 1/2.
I got the time
:D-->
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WordWolf
"How in the h*ll can you talk about tithing without bringing
money into it?"
Well, here's how I see this, scrutinizing it now....
According to vpw's account...
He was a BRAND-NEW pastor, RAISING A FAMILY.
The local elders (read "authority figures") tell him he has
a free hand to teach on anything EXCEPT MONEY.
So, that week, he teaches on tithing/money.
(This can jeopardize his job, STARTING as a loose cannon.)
The NEXT week, he teaches on tithing/money.
This WOULD jeopardize his job. He's fixated on doing the
opposite of his one instruction. The church has now sat thru
precisely TWO teachings by the new guy, and BOTH were about
giving money to the church.
What conclusion would a normal person make, sitting in the
pew? "He's in it for the money." It doesn't take a
psychologist or other expert to see that.
What action do the elders take? NOTHING.
The THIRD week, he preaches on tithing/money.
The average parishoner begins to get bitter, and either stops
attending, complains the new guy's a putz, or withholds their
donations.
This SERIOUSLY jeopardizes the health of the church.
What action do the elders take?
NOTHING.
The fourth week, he teaches on tithing/money.
The average parishoner complains about him being a schmuck
on their way out to find a REAL church. Donations are
withheld or given as pocket-change.
FINALLY, the elders take action (between 1-3 weeks after
the AVERAGE council of elders would have taken action.)
They talk to him in the kitchen of the house/ the basement
of the church. He gives them a smart-aleck response,
and they go away, taking no further action.
The church responds by giving MORE money, a LOT more money.
So many of the details make NO sense on further scrutiny.
Might this be another of vpw's fairy tales about how he
tweaked the noses of authority figures? If he is to be
believed, he bucked the system as soon as he arrived, and
mouthed off when he was called on it. According to him, he
succeeded that way.
This shows the frame of mind of what he considers an
APPROPRIATE response. This shows his eagerness to make stuff
up. This shows his eagerness to paint himself as a clever
maverick who swims against the stream and gets effective
results for it.
We know that in real life, he bullied the parishoners, and
got in some trouble with a church for something he did to a
church secretary. We know that in his own mind, he was a
veritable hero who was without faults, so it was the small
minds of the elders that were always wrong.
BTW, it seems that he didn't exactly rehearse this story.
It's got a continuity error. The elders met him in 2 entirely
different locations for the portentuous chat. I didn't even
catch that until now when I compared them side-by-side.
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A la prochaine
HOLY HANNAH BATMAN!!!
Can you just imagine if we had tried this with VP?
or this one :
Ya, say that to VP or one of his trained leaders when they were reproving you about what you should have been teaching or not teaching in the fellowship?
Can anyone spell 'double standard'?
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WordWolf
Convenient coincidence that what served God just happened to be the easy path for him.
pg-177, he meets Rosalind Rinker in Indiana.
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shazdancer
It is quite typical of the narcissistic personality to be mentally lazy, to take shortcuts. He thinks his potential for greatness is equal to deserving the rewards of greatness. He may be the cheater on exams, or the boss who makes everyone else do the work and then takes credit for it, or the scam artist. Although people may do these things and not be narcissists, the truly personality disordered have a pervasive tendency to be armchair quarterbacks, not doers.
It takes years of effort to play the guitar, so if Wierwille picked one up and didn't get good at it fairly quickly, he was happy to associate with a music ministry and "talk shop" with them, or make them change their lyrics and claim his ministry made them great. Did anyone actually hear him play a guitar? We certainly heard him sing -- he couldn't.
It takes years of dedicated practice to play basketball well, so it was easier for Vic to claim an association with a college and pro team and not actually be on one. (I agree, WW, his "associated with" remark could mean anything, and left wiggle room if someone looked it up. When no one did, his lies grew bolder, like "the inventor of the hook shot.") Perhaps he had enough natural talent to compete in high school, but when it came time to actually work at it, it was easier to just say he did after the fact.
It takes years of patient dedication to become a good pastor. But Vic's tendency to buck authority would not let him wait. HE knew how to run a congregation, how dare they tell the man of God what to do! I am sure he embellished the encounter with the elders, but I can certainly see him thwarting their wishes early on. Heck, if they fired him, he could always go back to Dotsie and lie about what happened, and have her go back to nursing.
Regards,
Shaz
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WhiteDove
Did anyone actually hear him play a guitar?
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i don't post long post cause i ain't smart enough
but i do know this
that man and his ministry was and is a great big fake
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A la prochaine
WhiteDove,
I remember seeing a picture of him playing the guitar at some family table/roa setting thing...he was wearing shorts with white shoes (Herb Tarlick style) and a cowboy hat. That's the only time I remember ever seeing him have anything to do with any musical instrument. I remember the picture so vividly because I had no clue he played. Now, the guitar he played seemed very small for him...almost a ukelele size.
I think that picture may have actually been in the WAY LIVING IN WONDERLAND...NOT SURE.
I felt embarassed about it or something? That has 'fishy' written all over it.
NOW, I personally play a little guitar.. and yes, I didn't play for years...and yes I'm NOT that good..but feel embarassed?? HUH???? That is the wierdest thing I have ever heard. I think I felt more embarassed because I neglected playing for so many years...that would be the extent of the embarassment. But not because I played.???? This is bizarro!
This doesn't even fit with what we've read so far about his personality in this book. Embarassed = Having a conscience.
Conscience ??? Now that certainly doesn't fit???
-->
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WordWolf
I shall check and get back to you on this. It doesn't sound
familiar to me and I was just in that thing. The only
conspicuous description I left out was the abortive attempt
at a hand-signal for the group.
Having packed before, I'm aware that you don't pack bulky
items you have no intention to use.
If he had packed a guitar, he was going to play it.
If he was embarassed and packed it, he was going to play it
IN PRIVATE. Even HE admitted he didn't play it at all.
Nobody EVER, I mean, EVER, saw him play in the entire run
of the ministry? Does ANYONE think this story even MIGHT
be true?
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WordWolf
Summer 1942.
pg-177, he meets Rosalind Rinker in Indiana.
Ok, this was the FIRST time he was ready to quit on God.
End of August, 1942. Those of you following along at home should
begin your tally here.
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WordWolf
For those of you following along at home, that's the SECOND time
vpw was getting ready to chuck the whole thing. So he issues
an ultimatum to the Supreme Creator of the Universe.
Please adjust your scorecards.
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WordWolf
(page-178, since "Nothing cataclysmic...")
Watch this next quote from pg-179.
pg-180.
pg-181.
Folks?
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WordWolf
Here we get to some of the classic vpw...
Plus WordWolf's translation and commentary track...
The famous "you can'tfind The Word anywhere if I'm not teaching you" stuff, which,
considering he learned ALL his stuff from others, was a
deliberate lie.
Translation: So God taught me and not any human.
Considering he was taught face-to-face by Stiles and Leonard,
that's another deliberate lie.
He's going somewhere with this... Which is why God taught me.Considering his story has at least THREE different times when
vpw was ready to quit, that was quite a gamble on God's part.
Do the faithful keep getting ready to quit?
Let us not mention Leonard's ministry, who did itsooner and better.
Got enough arrogance there? That depends on where Leonard isteaching this week.
:)-->
This rhetorical question was vpw saying you couldn't learn this
anywhere else on the planet. As you all know, it was a lie-
but a CONSISTENT lie.
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dmiller
Ala -- I remember that pic too. I think it may be in one of the old way magazines (roa edition -- mid 70's).
I seem to remember that it was a Martin guitar he had. The reason it looks so small, is because it was a 00-18, or 000-18 size -- which is much smaller than the size one sees today.
These days -- the guitars have wide bodies and big *shoulders* (up by the neck where the fretboard joins the body), but the 00-18, and the 000-18 were quite small in comparision. I don't think Martin makes these anymore, but they were hugely popular back in the 20's, and 30's.
I used to have a 000-18 (kicking myself now for having sold it!)
:(-->, and yes -- they are small, and almost do look like ukelele. 
:)-->
David
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WhiteDove
Ala you are correct it was at the ROA family table 1974. Now not being a player I will leave the critique up to someone else maybe Socks or Ted. But none the less he did play and sing so the answer is yes I did see him. I remember it also for he same reason as you as I had never seen him with a guitar. Somewhere around I have some pictures of it.
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dmiller
Sorry White Dove -- didn't mean to steal your gif or anything. Was just trying to copy it!!
David
Woops -- back to topic now!
:D-->
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Sunesis
Here's a great statement when he was talking about Rinker and how she pushed him:
...but the Bible is the Word of God... in all my years of school-not believing it anyway.
Note: "Not believing it [the Bible] anyway."
I can't believe he let that slip.
I have often thought he was not born again - here he basically admits with all he education, he did not believe the Bible. This is no wonder, many pastors, reverends and people who make a living pastoring their flocks don't either.
VP's concern was his ministry and his people. His "product" was the Word. It paid off handsomely.
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