"the Way:Living in Wonderland"

[WordWolf]

On page 187, vpw shows how to give a compliment and take it away at the

same time, when he's asked whatever happened to Rosalind R.

quote:

"Oh, she's still around. But she won't have much to do with me

now-because our positions on the Holy Spirit differ. She can't accept

that. But in those days, she really shook me up. She brought me back to

the Bible. I had been brought up with that Word of God, with people

around me operating the principles, but they couldn't teach them to me,

and I had forgotten them in all my years of training at seminaries.

She jarred me, at a time when I was searching and discouraged, with the

idea again that the Word of God really WAS the Will of God. It got me

started on the right track."

quote:

"On October 2, 1942, right after that snowfall, we opened a radio

broadcast called the Chimes Hour Youth Caravan on WLOK in Lima. That

broadcast and the Sunday morning service made me, made me, go to

the Word for two or threew new teachings a week. It got me into the Word,

got me growing in it, and kept me fluid."

Here comes another list of names, from page 188.

quote:

That's when I began to get interested in the healing ministries

such as Glenn Clark's camps featuring health through prayer in

Minnesota. There were others: E. Stanley Jones, Rufus Mosley, Albert

Cliffe, John Gaynor Banks. I had a tremendous hunger to know more. I

invited people to come to Van Wert and teach my "Spiritual 40 Club".

And I would listen to them and learn.

vpw has said he and 39 others passed the hat around and paid for

Christian speakers to come visit them. Anyone know anything definite

about the "Spiritual 40 Club"?

quote:

"But one of the finest educators I ever knew was a man named

Lininger...Of all the people I heard, he was the finest educator. I met

him when I got into the ministry in 1941, and he invited me to teach

homiletics and get my Doctor's Degree at his school when I was ready."

pg-189.

quote:

"You've seen that degree on my office wall. It's from Pikes

Peak Bible Seminary. You've never heard of that place either. Well, many

seminaries don't recognize it, so they don't count my Doctor's Degree.

The school isn't recognized, and yet Lininger had been the head of the

Department of Education for the state of Colorado. He had studies in all

the right schools and had gotten all the right degrees himself. But the

established religious world just didn't go for his theories."

quote:

"But my Th.D. is not recognized in some theological circles. As far

as they are concerned, I never received it."

page 190, vpw repeats one of his statements, and hopes you'll connect the

dots when he does.

quote:

"If no one is around to teach you the Word, and you are hungry,

then God has to teach you in the framework of your knowledgeable

experience. For example, if you're an athlete, He'll do it through

athletics. If you're a farmer, He'll teach you through farming."

page 192, vpw exceeds "everyone"'s expectations again, thru his

friendship with an anonymous woman who supposedly taught him about

Church history.

quote:

"When I first came to Van Wert, people told me I'd never get

along with her. No one else could, so they were sure I couldn't. But I

did. We understood each other."

[WordWolf]

pg-193, Amil Schaffner teaches him some stuff.

quote:

"There was another person from our congregation in Van Wert. I was

working the Word, putting it together, and he taught me a lot. I knew

there was so much to the Holy Spirit field, but I was just beginning to

see it. His name was Amil Schaffner. He was my hunting buddy and the man

who taught me great love, prayer and humility."

Supposedly, A.S. spoke in tongues once as a child, and was told it

wasn't of God.

pg-194.

quote:

"He shared these things with me over a period of time.

But I was working the Word in the Holy Spirit field at the time. Certain

events happened in my life leading me to receive the holy spirit. And the

night I led him into receiving the holy spirit he just cried like a baby.

He cried, 'My God, why? Why do I have to come to this knowledge of the

truth at the very end of my life, when I could have enjoyed it all along

since I was a boy?' "

We're almost to the part where he drops a bunch of names about the

holy spirit field....

[WordWolf]

pg-195.

quote:

But what was the event that happened before you led Amil

Schaffner into receiving the holy spirit? What happened?

Here we go...

pg-196.

quote:

"I guess that day was the second most important event in

my life-after the day that God spoke to me in that old dentist's office

in Payne-the day I received into manifestation the holy spirit and

spoke in tongues. I had been searching for years for more understanding

of the Word, of the power we have in Christ Jesus. I'd tried all kinds

of denominations, all kinds of trips. I'd gone to Pentecostal groups, to

all kinds. I can't remember them all."

quote:

"I'd asked the greatest minds, theologians, in the country about

receiving the holy spirit. No one could help me. I just knew that all I

was seeing was flesh, not spirit."

pg-197, Rufus Mosley prays for vpw, but no dice.

"I'm full, but I can't give it to you, and I don't know why."

quote:

"The day after Rufus Mosley said those words to me, a piece of

mail came regarding a Full Gospel Rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oh, all the

great names were going to be there, including a would-be-rising star in

Pentecostalism-Oral Roberts.

By then, I'd had it. I wasn't even going to go. I don't know what made me

change my mind exactly. But I said to Father, I'd go, but it would be the

last time; and if I did not receive, I'd leave. I said: there most be

something wrong. I was sick and tired of looking, but I made up my mind

I'd go this one last time.

That was the winter of 1951."

pg-198, a bunch of guys agreed to pray for him to get tongues, so

they prayed for him...

quote:

"and finally one of them said 'Speak another language.' So I

spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started

jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn't know Greek.

They said I had received and told me to speak in another language.

So I did. I spoke in Hebrew-quoted from Genesis, and they just got all

excited, congratulating themselves about it.

But in my heart, I knew I wasn't speaking in tongues. You see, they'd

just told me to speak in another language; they never taught me or

showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said 'another language'

and I spoke another language."

Although this fits neatly with his established pattern

of defying authority by hewing close to the LETTER

of an instruction and mutilating its SPIRIT,

this entire story strikes me as more of an afterthought,

an "I WISH I'd thought of this at the time" story.

If they were tuned in, they'd have known he was faking.

Plus, Hebrew and Greek are not exactly unknown languages

to Christians. Either way, I find this a persistent character

flaw that he's bragging about...which is ANOTHER persistent

character flaw....

[shazdancer]

Testify, WW!

Lessee, he was 24 years old, already has a wife and child to support, just out of college, and he ticks off his first pastorate by teaching nothing but the one thing they said not to teach on... real responsible.

Then only one year later, he's frustrated?

I also got a kick out of his "pretending" to speak in tongues by speaking Greek, then Hebrew. We'd all heard how fluent Wierwille was in those languages, he must've really fooled them... -->

And by the bye, his name-dropping, embellishment of the facts (lying), low frustration tolerance and looking for the easiest way to success are typical behavior for people with narcissistic personality.

[WordWolf]

And, we're up to the second snow job!

pg-198. vpw was fed up with the meeting, and got ready to leave.

quote:

"So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was

all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the

planes were grounded, So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed

in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!

Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the

night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said, 'No, this

is the first time.' "Doctor punctuates his story with a rumbling laugh. He continues

his account, pointing the car squarely towards the widening patch of blue sky."

pg-199.

quote:

"The next morning, I still hadn't left town. I went to breakfast at the

hotel, sat down next to a straight guy. He looked me over and recognized me. He began,

'Aren't you the Evangelical and Reformed preacher who spoke in tongues last night?'

I said, 'Yes, but it was a damn lie.' Then he said he knew I was dam*ed because I

cussed. That ended our conversation.

Then a woman came over to me, and said, 'I think God sent a man here to meet your need.

Meet me at 9am.' I thought,

'Women never tell the truth.'

But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her.

I got to the place she said at 9am, and there she was. She introduced me to a man named

J.E. Stiles. He'd com in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to

Tulsa to minister the holy spirit

to one man.

We talked for a few minutes, and he

suggested we gointo the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch.

So that's what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just

remember thinking to myself,

'There aren't going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.'

I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk- we talked about Oral

Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I picked up the check, and

then Stiles turned to his wife and said, 'Honey, I'm going with VP.' She said something

to him like, 'How long will you be?' And he said,

'That's none of your business.'

That was it, and my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent.

His stature increased in my eyes. just from the way he handled her."

I added the spaces, like I do sometimes in this thread, so you don't miss anything

vaguely important.

Everything from "the Stiles.." on was pg-200.

[WordWolf]

Continuing in pg-200.

quote:

"We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach

me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses. Also Luke 11:11, where it talks about fathers giving

gifts to their children: If a child asked for bread, would the earthly father give him a

stone? He just went over and over those things, used those verses in Luke hundreds of times

to get that fear out of me. He just drove it home to me-God wouldn't give a lousy gift.

We worked till 3pm. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn't know the language. It was

like a burning light. It just cooked me on the inside. Such a flood came out.

For the next half hour, Stiles had me speak and stop, just start and stop. Then he left. But I

went on all night-speaking in tongues, praying in my understanding, reading from the Word.

I was up all night, higher than a kite, I never ate. I couldn't sleep. I was so thrilled, so

overjoyed and burning.

And that has been the greatest night of my life.

Father showed me things that night. Some of them have come to pass, and others not yet."

pg-201.

quote:

"You see, learning is a process. You don't learn overnight.

The holy spirit field-that's the field God raised me up for.

There's not a question that cannot be answered biblically.

And there's no one I can't lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do

it.

No matter how much knowledge you have of God, God seldom allows you to teach more than

people are able to receive.

Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able

to receive them."

Well, aren't WE special?

pg-204.

quote:

"When I came back from Tulsa, Mal George and his wife, Jan, were the first ones

I led into receiving the holy spirit. They live in New Knoxville now, both of them teachers,

have seven kids. They stood with the ministry over twenty years now, never wavered.

Next time, we hear about B.G. Leonard. Try and keep track what Leonard supposedly is good at,

and what he's lousy at. Also, vpw quotes exactly THREE sentences from Leonard. On my last

reread the past few days, it occurred to me that the exact quotes are utterly fascinating.

Guy teaches vpw more than 1/2 what he knows at the time concerning the Bible and so on,

vpw just 'photocopies' his class and runs it as-is at first,

and WHAT does he really remember Leonard saying?

[rascal]

*Women are all liars*....*Women aren`t gonna be around when HE speaks in tongue*....JE Stiles was inexcusably rude to his wife, thus rising him up 99% in vp`s opinion.... whatta guy!

Now THERES a guy I wanna learn everything pertaining to life and Godliness from.....

That story ALWAYS bugged me ...grrrr

Edited August 30, 2005 by rascal

[Ham]

quote:

There's not a question that cannot be answered biblically.

Yep. But is it the RIGHT answer? Or does every question live in a biblical context?

"Why is the sky blue"..

Better get out a concordance to find the answer to this one..

Maybe the book should have been named: "Da Vey. vic (and later loy), living in la-la land".

quote:

It was

like a burning light. It just cooked me on the inside

Questionable. Sounds more like an LSD experience.. maybe somebody slipped the old codger a "mickey"..

quote:

Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able to receive them

Perhaps this supposedly validated his claim that he forgot more than that poor ole preacher ever knew.. at least to him.

[Ham]

quote:

Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able to receive them

I dunno. Could've been the same "experience".. but when he "came back" he somehow lacked the wherewithal to explain it to anybody..

[Ham]

quote:

I was up all night, higher than a kite, I never ate. I couldn't sleep

Maybe I'm not so far off the mark.. ;)-->

[Ham]

Heck, it'd even explain the blizzard he "saw".. :)-->

[def59]

For those who think vpw was this awesome man of God, compare his words on women to how Jesus treated women.

Then see who is the absent one.

[Ham]

Gives me a real good idea for a novel. A greasy old preacher accidently eats the wrong kind of mushrooms, falls over a log, and plummets down a hole..

[frank123lol]

T.oo funny Ham

[Ham]

Thanks friend!

[Belle]

quote:

... I said 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a

sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were tightly shut as I prayed. And then I

opened them.

The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling

station on the corner not 75 feet away." Doctor relates this phenomenon in a joyous

voice.

Don't know about you but if I squeeze my eyes shut really tight for a while, when I open them up I see snowflakes and white, too. Especially if I've been sipping Drambuie.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Dear Ham, Uncle Hairy, and WW, check out Karl Kahler's book The Cult That Snapped which gives more info om TWLIL, UH, and BTS(Born to Serve) and how all 3 don't line up together. Also, I hve been informed that Jim Doop is writing his own book about his Way experinces. I am surprised that VPW didn't mention Dietrich Bonhoffer as one of his proffessors at Princeton.

He did not teach at Gordon , but rather was guest preacher for chapel and

optional lecture for only 1 day. Moody Bible Institute know suspects that Wierwille attended one day during open house sitting in class as visitor, also checking out their library and bookstore on Ruben Archer Torrey(2nd president of MBI after Moody himself). Also Wierwille's writtings seem to be influenced by Albert Benjamin Simpson, Smith Wigglesworth(who taught Stiles, Leonard, Kenyon, Oral Roberts, Hagin, and Copeland), Lester Sumrall, Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale, a young Robert Schuller,etc.

[shazdancer]

Funny you should mention that about Moody, Thomas. I was thinking the same thing about the University of Chicago Divinity School. He hints that he studied there, though that fact doesn't show up in later bios.

I'm guessing he just attended a couple of one-day seminars, which they still do, according to their website.

Regards,

Shaz

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by Belle:

quote:

... I said 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a

sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were tightly shut as I prayed. And then I

opened them. The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling station on the corner not 75 feet away." Doctor relates this phenomenon in a joyous voice.

Don't know about you but if I squeeze my eyes shut really tight for a while, when I open them up I see snowflakes and white, too. Especially if I've been sipping Drambuie.

Ah, yes, "phosphenes".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphene

Apparently, drugs DO induce them more as well. I didn't realize that until a few minutes ago.

(I suspected that, but a quick search showed it.)

==========

Shaz, good point.

Sitting in on a seminar becomes "I took every class they offered."

However, he mentioned their correspondence programs. Was that an intentional lie to cover

up the fact that he wasn't gone for years to take all their classes?

=====

Thomas,

I'm hoping someone with a copy of Born to Serve will chime in once I've finished posting

clips from this book. I expect a lot of people are withholding their lengthier comments to

make it easier to find the direct quotes on the opening pages. That's certainly my idea,

and I've confined my comments to a few brief things so far for that reason.

If someone with the UH biography chimes in too, that's a bonus.

I have ONE quote from JD that I'm saving for the end, and if you post how to get

Karl Kahler's book, I'm sure we'd appreciate it. We all reserve the right to disagree with

his conclusions, however. That doesn't mean I don't want to READ them, however.

Heck, if KK wants to post excerpts, I'd welcome it.

[oldiesman]

quote:

"It's not a building

or a denomination, but the people who believe and act on the Word of God"

Lets see, we have the Way HQ , we have buildings, we have tax exempt status, we have security to keep people away that aren't up to our standards

We also had people who believed and acted on the Word of God...

I miss Elena...first met her in 1973 at my first PFAL class on Shelter Island in July of 1973. I will never forget those evenings she led the "Hillside Sings".

Went over her apartment a few times in Manhattan. First met Murphy P.G. there, strangely enough,...just in from Oklahoma.

Elena and I kept in loose contact for a number of years. Always pleasant to be around and talk to.

She also went on the motorcycle trip with us in 1984...she wrote a nice day by day journal about it which I still treasure.

Last time I saw her was at the ROA in 1989... I think she left twi shortly after that.

She was one of those pleasant kind believers who made twi a nice place to be, once upon a time.

[WordWolf]

Ok, let's see....

This episode we'll see BG Leonard, what vpw admits to learning from him, what vpw says about

him, and the 3 things that vpw finds quoteworthy from BG Leonard.

pg-205.

quote:

"But how did you get the class started?" I asked him. "It was happening while

you were here in Van Wert."

quote:

"After that trip to Tulsa lots of things fell into place. God just keeps giving it

to you as you can take it. Someone in Tulsa gave me the name of B.G. Leonard, or sent my

name to him, I can't remember which. Anyway, after Tulsa I began to get his monthly

newsletter from Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

I never read that thing. It was so badly printed, you could hardly make out a word. I never

read it for two years. And then a couple of years after Tulsa, I had been working the Word

about laying on of hands. I'd worked every scripture and seen how they worked together

perfectly.

That particular day, just after I'd worked it through, I'd gotten B.G. Leonard's newssheet.

Well, I just crumpled it up and threw it in the wastebasket as usual. I did some other

things, and later that day I took the wastebasket out to burn the rubbish. As I shook it

out, this thing, which was on the bottom, fell out on top of the heap in the incinerator--

opened.

There staring me in the face was an article about laying on of hands. I read the first two

lines fast, and they are perfectly accurate. So I pulled the whole thing out of the fire

before it burned and read it through. The whole article was exactly what I had come up with

in my months of research. So I went in and called B.G. Leonard on the telephone.

He told me he loved me, but I couldn't come up to see him because he was in the middle of a

class. So I took the next plane to Calgary. His place was called the Christian Training

Centre."

Now here are ALL the direct quotes from Leonard.

Please note that, like everyone else, he can ID vpw on sight.

quote:

"And then he started preaching. Boy, oh, boy, was he with it! He taught his heart

out for another hour and a half. Then everyone left, and I just sat there. He said, 'Hi, ya,

there, Wierwille, I thought I told you, you couldn't come.' And I said, "Yeh, but I didn't

hear you.' 'Well, where are you staying?' he asked me, and I told him. And he said

"Why, you're in the middle of the red light district. That's all whores!' "

That was ALL the direct quotes from Leonard.

pg-207.

quote:

"He loved me, and I learned some stuff from him. He had tremendous believing.

That's why I love the guy."

quote:

"The summer of 1953, our whole ministry went up-Dotsie and Donnie and some of the

others from Van Wert. We took his whole trip- really learned a lot about the other

manifestations of the holy spirit. But he worked from personal experiences. I worked what

he taught from the accuracy of the Scriptures. When I came home, I made up my mind that I

was going to tie the whole thing together from Genesis to Revelation. So I did, and in

October, I had the very first 'Power for Abundant Living' Class.

At that time, the Foundational Class and the Advanced Class were together-then whole thing

in two weeks. But the syllabus today is basically the same. The basic principles from the

Word are the same. The class has filled out. But I knew the greatness of our age-the age of

holy spirit and that every truth must fit in the framework of the manifestations. I just had

to teach it to somebody."

pg-208.

quote:

"I taught without a syllabus, but the class was the same. You could throw

the syllabus away now and I could still teach it. It's a burning reality in my soul."

[Ham]

quote:

And then a couple of years after Tulsa, I had been working the Word

about laying on of hands. I'd worked every scripture and seen how they worked together

perfectly.

quote:

There staring me in the face was an article about laying on of hands. I read the first two

lines fast, and they are perfectly accurate. So I pulled the whole thing out of the fire

before it burned and read it through. The whole article was EXACTLY WHAT I HAD COME UP WITH IN MY MONTHS OF RESEARCH

Emphasis: mine.

Another "amazing" coincidence- first he comes up with Bullinger's stuff independantly, other folks stuff, and now, B.G.'s.

It's just "amazing" to me..

[Ham]

A little side note, hopefully not too far off the beaten track..

Why is it that the bookstore offered other works, like Bullinger, Kenyon, etc.- but NOT Leonards?

Leonards materials were available for purchase, just as well as the others.

The name "Leonard" was almost whispered under vic's Drambuie soaked breath..

All I heard about Leonard was this little exerpt in TWLIL.

I dunno- I can only guess, but perhaps vic was TERRIFIED at the prospect of "HIS" people picking up Leonard's book, and reading RHST line by line, and word by word..

[Ham]

There is some logic in this question, I think..

Lessee. vic "borrowed" a plenty from Bullinger, Kenyon, etc. Yet he still allowed their works to be sold in the bookstore. Why?

But we get to Leonard, who was still alive at the time..

Why not Leonard's materials? The idea that Leonard's works were somehow "messed up" or "incomplete" do not agree with this statement:

quote:

There staring me in the face was an article about laying on of hands. I read the first two

lines fast, and they are perfectly accurate

PERFECTLY accurate, in vics own words.

[def59]

Bullinger's copyrights probably expired. Leonard was still alive.