Hey you !! I left in 2000 as well...Geesh, if I didnt have my but in the aDV. CLass I would of been dirt. I had to take Intermediate 5 hrs away and then be ready for a month of weekend anothers 3hrs away for AD. Class the very following week........talking about crazy......never will they have hold on my life again....come hell or high water...
Excuse me...respector of people.they are manipulators and lie'rs.(sp) never have to had to type this word..ha.
I'm still in The Way and got a LOT of grief for not attending the AC a couple years ago but I just didn't want to go - after dropping from the W.C. a decade ago, I just didn't want to get into that much "Way Commitment". Once bitten, twice shy. HOWEVER, I have to say that TWIGS must be like jobs in a certain sense of it because I changed twigs months ago and this one is wayyy (pardon the pun) different. In fact, the leadership at this Twig said that the ministry had hurt a LOT of people and was trying to come back from it. A lot of people like me who'd put their heart into the ministry and go burned by the religion of it would A) never come back or B) take a loooonnnngggg time trusting any leadership again. What's funny is that I had just come out of a fellowship that had been pushing me to increase my commitment and it was really straining my personal relationship with my spouse (who is not a (Way) Believer). Nevertheless, this new fellowship, the leadership had recently come from HQ and was telling me that we as believers needed to STOP pushing that crap down other people's throats. People don't get committed to a marriage overnight. They don't change jobs overnight. People don't change their lives overnight. Anyway, I think many, many people in The Way Ministry do want to help people. They want to spread the Word of God, the healing balm for the wounds of life. But like anything that is run by people, it can run awry! Well, to answer your questions, I think the Ministry is really trying to get back to what it was when I took the class and started going to fellowship back in the 80's. At this fellowship, we do things that (at best) would be described as unconventional but is very, very good for someone like me - who felt like they training to be a guard at Aushwitz in the 90's before leaving the W.C. It reminds me that every fellowship is self-supporting. I left because I saw what The Ministry was becoming, I came back for the same reasons. For the most part, no one is going to apologize to you for some Nazi Rhetoric that they were trained to spew at you but I have had people tell me they are sorry for what happened to me, sorry THAT it happened and maybe it was a good learning tool for me. I pour my heart out to God and no one is my priest! I confess to no one but Him and that is the way it was always supposed to be. So maybe now that they got the sh@#t kicked out of them in public spotlight, they cleaned house and the people who've kept their mouths shut (the rest of the world watching the jews be executed) are finally outraged and trying to make it right.
Thanks, I'll take sweet cream in my coffee. And I'll take another Danish too.
are you saying they are restructuring the way they handle the word or are you saying you see signs of remorse?there is a big difference. I dont think keeping ones mouth closed is the answer or the key to Power.
Welcome..sorry, I think the wait staff has left for the evening. You can put a quarter in the cup on the counter and help yourself:) You are welcomed to the cafe. :D
I am very thankful for the Advanced Class, myself.
I took AC'88 at Emporia. It was an enlightening experience for me. Being a mere peon, the highest "spiritual giant" I had met prior to that time was Joe Guarini (requisat in pacem) or Wolfgang Schneider. At that time, I thought that the VAST marjority of people in TWI were incredible men/women of God. I heard the greatness of their teachings either on tape or at the Rock. All the believers I had run into until that time had nothing but praise for these spiritual giants. It really never had occured to me that it could all be a lie.
I then had the chance to meet a few of the true giants in the ministry. T*m J*nki*s was example #1. Then I actually had the great honor of meeting Loy Craig Martin(puke). I had some questions during the conduct of the class, but, then when I met the forehead, I knew something was horribly wrong. Initially, I thought that it might have been me...but the thought was planted.
And I started looking and asking questions and reading "unapproved" stuff (this is long before Waydale or Trancechat or whatever else). ROA 88 came...unlike the previous two I had the privilege of attending since returning to the states (I got into TWI while stationed in Germany), I didn't remember being horribly "blessed," tremendously motivated to go back and "move the Word," etc. Something was HORRIBLY wrong. Literally, the only things I remember from that ROA were (1) sitting outside the big top during one of the keynote "teachings" and laughing my a$$ off and (2) having some really good sex (I'll leave the details out of this for the moment)...one incident in particular that stands out in my mind, but again, propriety tells me to leave it alone. But that's IT!!! I was, frankly, relieved it was done and was well glad to go back home.
And then I started running into more disaffected way corps and hearing things. I got ahold of a copy of the POP. etc., etc.
And then I get married and my first wife died. (she went off her epilepsy meds and had a seizure/swallowed her tongue while asleep...thank you TWI for teaching her the "law of believing" so thoroughly)
And then I have the inestimable privilege of meeting everybody's buddy Rico M, when he was on his interim corps year in Carbondale, IL.
And then I see the infamous loyalty letter, shown to me by my WC T/C. (Who, btw, was DFAC not long after I left)
And I knew it was time to leave. I had a permanent change of station move coming up, so I decided that this would be the best time to drop off the face of the planet...hoping that things would sort themselves out while I was stationed overseas...and the rest is history.
All of this started as a result of going to AC88. When I see the living h3ll that those of you who were in TWI through the '90s had to deal with, looking back on it, I think the $450-$500 price tag of the AC was CHEAP...after all, it opened my eyes so that I could start seeing the truth of the matter...and was able to avoid the hell of TWI II/ TWI III (depending upon whose breakdown you read).
So I, for one, am VERY grateful for the Advanced Class!!!
I had 2 different Adv.Classes. Both done by LCM.......spiritual disgrace. I have actualy learned more since my departure. I think God was protecting me during both. what does that tell you.
Long time ago. She was a true saint. Wonderful heart. Here's a funny: she was a born Catholic. Her father really, really wanted a Catholic funeral. Me, I thought, fine, OK. Doesn't really matter. Her sisters, as I recall, were both WC grads. Guess who said a Rosary for the repose of my late wife's soul? Guess who were the only ones saying it? Yup, right on both counts!
It suits me just fine, now, as I can imagine you realize. But it was a HUGE shock to me at that time.
Anyway, I am certain that she is with Christ. So, no worries... (mind you I still have a Mass said every year on the anniversary of her death...)
Ummm....maybe I was not clear. Many, many of current way believers ARE very sorry for all the S%@$t that happened. Sorry that they were hurt, sorry that they hurt others. Yes, they are restructuring some of what was taught because bad practice became bad doctrine and how can anyone say "Do what I say not what I do" when we SEE the sermon. Yes, there is remorse. People who stood up (me) - got slapped down. People who questioned - got kicked. I didn't stay in and now I can say that I didn't stay out either but what I can say is that I believe and can SEE that people are trying to change the ministry - in doctrine and in practice. Some people have been so badly burned, they will never come back and that chapter in their life is closed. So be it. Sell the books on Ebay and call it over. BUT it's not over for many, many people and The Way will come back and stronger because the heart of what I believe The Way was meant to be (is not me controlling you or you controlling some poor slob who wandered off the street and would rather come to Twig than be alone every night -) it's about The Love of God in the Renewed Mind in Manifestation. I believe in God and I believe that Satan exists and it appears that for a period of time, they were both changing work shifts at The Way but I can tell you first hand that not everybody had him (the latter) as a boss, only some and most of those have been ousted. So it's turning around. Slowly but it is turning. I only hope that the people I hurt when I was in can find it in their hearts to forgive me. I don't think I hurt many (I'd like to think) but I can remember a few and it crushes my heart when I think of some of the things I did and said because I thought it was right or because it's all I knew or because I was afraid. I wish I could tell them FACE TO FACE that I am sorry, that I was wrong but I don't even know where they are or if they'd even care. I believe the Way Ministry is changing because I am The Way Ministry and I have changed. Off with the old and on with the New. God is I AM THAT I AM. and that's enough for me.
I don't think I knew you or your wife but I am sorry for your loss. Thanks for the topic reply. It was VERY interesting and informative.
I took the advanced class on WA&P & still required to have no debt & no mortgage. I left in the year 2000. My then husband & I were having problems because I wanted out of the ministry. I suffered a stroke that year & both my then hubby & the way said it was because I was walking out from under God's protection & not submitting to my hubby. After that I had enough & left him & the ministry & have had no regrets about it.
From someone who has just left who has been in for many years, The Way Leadership is not changing.
There is many way believers who see whats wrong, some leave, some stand up and say something and get kicked out, others want to stick around and change it. I am very thankful for what I have learned growing up in this ministry, But when the people who are supposed to lead God's people, dont give a flip for the hearts of God's kids, they are no longer representitives of God!
Saul was called, Saul turned away from God. It has happened before, Has it happened again?
Ummm....maybe I was not clear. Many, many of current way believers ARE very sorry for all the S%@$t that happened. Sorry that they were hurt, sorry that they hurt others. Yes, they are restructuring some of what was taught because bad practice became bad doctrine and how can anyone say "Do what I say not what I do" when we SEE the sermon. Yes, there is remorse. People who stood up (me) - got slapped down. People who questioned - got kicked. I didn't stay in and now I can say that I didn't stay out either but what I can say is that I believe and can SEE that people are trying to change the ministry - in doctrine and in practice. Some people have been so badly burned, they will never come back and that chapter in their life is closed. So be it. Sell the books on Ebay and call it over. BUT it's not over for many, many people and The Way will come back and stronger because the heart of what I believe The Way was meant to be (is not me controlling you or you controlling some poor slob who wandered off the street and would rather come to Twig than be alone every night -) it's about The Love of God in the Renewed Mind in Manifestation. I believe in God and I believe that Satan exists and it appears that for a period of time, they were both changing work shifts at The Way but I can tell you first hand that not everybody had him (the latter) as a boss, only some and most of those have been ousted. So it's turning around. Slowly but it is turning. I only hope that the people I hurt when I was in can find it in their hearts to forgive me. I don't think I hurt many (I'd like to think) but I can remember a few and it crushes my heart when I think of some of the things I did and said because I thought it was right or because it's all I knew or because I was afraid. I wish I could tell them FACE TO FACE that I am sorry, that I was wrong but I don't even know where they are or if they'd even care. I believe the Way Ministry is changing because I am The Way Ministry and I have changed. Off with the old and on with the New. God is I AM THAT I AM. and that's enough for me.
I don't think I knew you or your wife but I am sorry for your loss. Thanks for the topic reply. It was VERY interesting and informative.
Thank you for your kind words and welcome to gsc. Hope you stick around for a while.
You will find a diversity of opinions here...everything from people who still go with basically the doctrine that twi taught, to calvinists, to Catholics (no, I'm not the only one), to Jews, to Agnostics, to burnt-out-on-it-all, to neo-Pagans, etc.
You can learn a whole bunch if you're willing to listen and look with honest, open eyes.
You may be interested in checking out the Doctrine forum...we have some pretty good scriptural discussions there from a whole host of point of views. Again, you may be able to learn something if you're willing to look honestly at what you have been taught...
The Advanced Wap class was exhausting I thought. Or maybe it was the huge fee we had to pay to stay in a motel for the whole thing. Plus we had seen some pretty ugly stuff in the past couple of years, so were no longer so rah rah way.
What, a couple thousand dollars spent for a class--with absolutely nothing of any use to show for it. Little plastic name tag. We did see a great increase in pressure on our private lives once we were WAP ADV grads. Unpleasant.
I wouldn't get too comfortable if I was IN.
I doubt they've changed the "man of god for our day and time" doctrine--if they can find one, they'll have another... pipeline to God and all. Makes them more special than other groups. Then you'll be hopping to his particular tune. New classes to pay for etc. New hoops.
Doubt they've changed the structure of authority, or the 'obey your leaders' doctrine...
Doubt that there is any way to handle a poor or manipulative or even mentally ill leader. You innies just have to watch your fellow believers drop like flies and hope like He!! you're staying under the radar, because it could be you next. Other churches--there are procedures set up to deal with situations like that.
Doubt you have any voice at all inside TWI.
Doubt that TWI discloses their financial records like real churches do.
Doubt they allow actual discussion on doctrine rather than the Word is what we say the Word is.
Doubt you can safely go to your innie friends and speak of any doubts you might have about the ministry without risking being tattled on.
Doubt that any lowly twiggie/advanced class grad has any kind of voice to bring about change.
Doubt that any actual leaders within TWI are contacting people who's lives they crushed to say sorry, I was wrong...haven't heard of even one(though I have heard of some who've left that have done that.)
IMO the structure of leadership in TWI rewards manipulators and contollers, while loving and compassionate folk get chewed and spit out, people that want to right a wrong get demonized.
Got a call from an innie not too long ago, one who had been in our twig back when we ran one many years ago. This innie thought that maybe the Way got a little too carried away with interference in private lives and also thought mark and avoid was carried out too much(six years since we left and had last spoken). I was very glad to hear that none of Innie's children, who I adored when they were in our twig, and are now all grown up, will have anything to do with TWI. I told Innie to be thankful for that--none of them would end up being ground up at some future time by some 'loving' leader.
"Ummm....maybe I was not clear. Many, many of current way believers ARE very sorry for all the S%@$t that happened. Sorry that they were hurt, sorry that they hurt others. Yes, they are restructuring some of what was taught because bad practice became bad doctrine and how can anyone say "Do what I say not what I do" when we SEE the sermon. Yes, there is remorse. People who stood up (me) - got slapped down. People who questioned - got kicked. I didn't stay in and now I can say that I didn't stay out either but what I can say is that I believe and can SEE that people are trying to change the ministry - in doctrine and in practice. Some people have been so badly burned, they will never come back and that chapter in their life is closed."
Lizzy I believed just like you & for a long time stayed in more to "protect" others who were very vulnerable. I too hoped things would change. However; God is our reason for living, not TWI. In order for God's Word to live again for any believer they have to move forward. You are part of The Body of Christ, not The Body of The Way Ministry. If the believers at TWI are truly sorry & want to really see The Mystery live again, they have to leave. They have a corrupt leadership that God can no longer work with but he can work in individuals. Whenever a new person comes what do you have to offer them, Corrupt leaders that are hard hearted and legalistic. So why not live your lifes dream and start a fellowship. You will see God as never before. You do NOT need a title over your fellowship, just The Body of Christ & you are a member in particular. The TWI will never improve they blew their chance and GOD has moved on thru those that left and are moving ahead with The Word Over The World.
God bless you and yours and have a WONDERFUL THANKSGIVING
This conversation about the Advanced Class got me thinking about how we as wayfers would often be thoroughly and obnoxiously convinced about things we did not understand.
When I took the AC in 1978 there was a handout called "the numerics of the manifestations", where Wierwille ties in the numerical order of each manifestation as it's listed with the significance of each number as taught by Bullinger in Number in Scripture.
When Martindale taught his second version of the AC (the first was just a reteaching of Wierwille's PFAL Advanced Class, the 2nd was officially The Advanced Class on the Way of Abundance and Power) he taught the manifestations in the order that they are listed in Corinthians, with the exception of the so-called worship manifestations.
Before the class was released Martindale mentioned that for years he didn't understand the whole concept of "the numerics of the manifestations", but taught it anyway!
How many things did we all spout off like "there are no starts in the north" from Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed to the whole concept of "God can only give what he is: spirit"?
A leopard can't change their spots. What TWI really is will eventually be in full evidence sooner or later sometime down the pike because it is what it is and that's all it will ever be.
I don't doubt that there are some sincere people still in there trying to help people heal. Heck, we were all part of it once too, there to help. And there were always some special leader or coordinator who cared more about the people than the rules and regulations of the corrup religion called TWI: but they were outnumbered by the power hungry, cookie cutter, fax images of the Man of God (have briefcase will travel..up the Way Tree.)
And of course, these true hearted people did make life in TWI bearable while we stood among those who berated us. But did they really help us see the true colors of TWI and help us make the right decision or only prolong the suffering of staying around a dead stinking dog because of our loyalty to good people rather than to ourselves or our families or even our supposed one on one with God?
Back to the Advanced Class. I took it in 1986. There was nothing in there that I hadn't known before. It cost what, like $450?? Plus traveling expenses to get there? It certainly wasn't worth it. I left TWI a few years after taking the class and would have puked if LCM had demanded that after all that, we had to take YET another class to be considered anything of import to them.
I didn't get to have a long honeymoon because I had to use all my vacation time to spend 2 weeks in Rome City taking the Advanced Class. I didn't have any money to buy nice presents for those helping with the wedding because I had to pay $500 for the class and travel costs to get there. I HAD to go because Moneyhands wouldn't marry us if I wasn't an Advanced Class grad.
I also thought it was exhausting. I never went to the thing after the last session because I was too tired. I'd go straight to my room and go to bed. I didn't get up till the last minute in the mornings, either and then struggled to stay awake during the dang sessions. I wasn't really happy to be there and I was an emotional wreck during the whole time, before and after, too. Georgi@ R@ve died while I was there and God had told me that was going to happen. I missed her memorial service and was sorry about that.
Think Lizzy, WELCOME TO THE CAFE!!! It's good to "read" you! I see you've already had a danish. I made some special Thanksgiving Cookies this morning; would you care for a few of these?
*edited because I forgot to actually offer the cookies.
I guess when an apology has been issued, restitution has been offered, I will believe that there is hope for the group..... Which biblically speaking is their minimal responsibility.
What the good hearted folks are now doing in attempting change is no darn different than what tens of thousands of us attempted to do for decades ....in reality, the only thing that is accomplished is that the very same evil people and policies are still being supported by good hearted folks
That is how they get their continued support.....people believe that at the core...the ministry WANTS to be good and Godly...
I`d like to point out that the people who are in charge currently are STILL the very same people that have been documented in a court of law as being aware and facillitating the most heinous abuse and practices in twi.
The only reason that the rampant abuse seen before isn`t so visable these days is because the eyes of the legal community are upon them...just waiting for them to step one single toe out of line .....
They cannot get away with what they once did.
The people who are fighting to save the ministry are no different than the tens of thousands of pure hearted souls that were used and cast aside before them.
Yes, I am fighting to save the ministry because it saved my life. It's fine for everybody who wants to walk away and call it over but I can't do it because I remember the agony of the spirit realm. I was tortured by the spirits in my mind and then suddenly, I was 18 and made a bet with God. For years, I had went to many churches, looked up other organizations, talked to many, many folks about The Bible and I could find no power. I was in seances and there was power. I operated devil spirits and black magic and there was power. I did drugs and dealt drugs and there was power but my heart longed to know God, to be good. I knew there was spiritual power available on "the dark side" but nothing seemed to evident on the side of God. Fed up, I told God that if He didn't show me His Will and His Word, I was going to kill myself because I was DONE with this world. Then I got witnessed to and once they kicked out the devil spirits and I could read again (lost the ability to understand or read english during the witnessing encounter, which was a big deal since it was/is my primary language), I got born again. I spoke in tongues 3 months later. I had lived with pain for a couple years (from a severe injury) and I took PFAL and got miraculous healing from it during the class. I have seen the lame walk. I have been at death's door. I have been physically mamed by spirits. I know what the world has to offer without the Word of God and I know there are others who are in the same situation. This ministry saved my life. There are others who need it. I want it to live for those people too.
Okay, so maybe it almost ruined my life too but I found the balance and the desire of my heart in my spouse. God IS good always. I just remember that. God is good ALWAYS.
Thanks for the yummy turkey cookies! Super duper gobbling good! I'll have another round of coffee, if you please.
Oh before I go - Thanks for all the welcoming by the way! I really appreciate it.
I’m not retarded to what the ministry was, became, and now is. I also was Marked & Avoided when I left the W.C. in the 90's. Boy, was that pretty horrible! I took the AC 4X and each time it was exhilarating and exhausting. Of course, that was at the Indiana Campus where people stayed on campus the whole class and didn't have to shuffle between the Motels/Hotels which must be pretty awful. I talked to a friend who recently attended (last year) and the schedule was very hectic. Getting committed even one step at a time takes a LOT of time and a LOT of money but I've always believed that people make the time and find the money for what interests them so I guess I always justified to myself that that's what it was for me. I came back after nearly a decade of absence just a few years ago and found some of the changes disturbing. The Ministry was a LOT like New Orleans after the hurricane, leveled and hurting. Now many Way people would say that spiritually New Orleans brought it on themselves, just like Sodom & Gomorrah and if that is the case, then it could be reasoned that The Way Ministry had the same thing happen to them and were (in that same sense)spiritually deserving of it. Although we are not supposed to be joyful when bad things happen, at what point can we justify the relief and the true THANK GOD! feeling that we had when the spiritual hurricane leveled The Way ministry. I feel they had it coming and I hope the people who hurt me spent just as much time in tears and in frustration as I did. Now that it’s mostly done and justice has been served, I can move on. I can forgive the emotional rapists because justice was served. Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT against the ministry, nor do I want it to fall or fail. However, the cancer of pride, anger and lust for money and power corrupted many people and that was the welcome wagon to the d.s. realm to rack & ruin the ministry and what I mean by rack & ruin is not just the ministry in it's corporate HQ in Ohio but in it's members in particular. The people like me (and most of you) who were victims of the abuse. It’s terrible, just terrible what has happened but can a phoenix rise from the ashes? I believe it can. I think it is changing because it HAS TO change. When the government can come in and tell you that you’re breaking the LAW, at what point do the leaders figure out that there is more corruption than what meets the eye. Leadership is changing and many have changed. The current Way Corps is different. They are being trained differently. The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves. They are not ½ human, ½ WAYFER cyborg but rather all-heart, all-go people, like I remember them being. People with heart AND confidence – what a combination. Have we really come full circle back to “GOD WORKS IN YOU”, instead of “God is working in you only if I (being a leader) recognize God working in you and can fully agree that yes, it is God working in you and it’s not some spiritual mix-up”. When LCM said in 1992 that he didn’t get involved in people’s personal lives or their finances because people have to make the Word their own and they answer to God in their heart of hearts, he was right. If they had stayed on that track, all would have been well but alas, the deception was already weaving and the illusion clarifying and we all know what happened after that. Nevertheless, the end of my Saga is that I believe God works in us as we believe HIS Word and as we renew our minds and put off the old man nature. I am IN the ministry because I can hear the voice of God when I draw closer to Him and to His Word and the ministry helps me with that. I give and I take; they give and they take and as long as it stays within the boundaries of what I find acceptable, I will stay but experience has taught me to be warned and to be wary. Sincerity is no guarantee for truth.
The Ministry was a LOT like New Orleans after the hurricane, leveled and hurting. Now many Way people would say that spiritually New Orleans brought it on themselves, just like Sodom & Gomorrah and if that is the case, then it could be reasoned that The Way Ministry had the same thing happen to them and were (in that same sense)spiritually deserving of it. Although we are not supposed to be joyful when bad things happen, at what point can we justify the relief and the true THANK GOD! feeling that we had when the spiritual hurricane leveled The Way ministry. I feel they had it coming and I hope the people who hurt me spent just as much time in tears and in frustration as I did. Now that it’s mostly done and justice has been served, I can move on. I can forgive the emotional rapists because justice was served. Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT against the ministry, nor do I want it to fall or fail. However, the cancer of pride, anger and lust for money and power corrupted many people and that was the welcome wagon to the d.s. realm to rack & ruin the ministry and what I mean by rack & ruin is not just the ministry in it's corporate HQ in Ohio but in it's members in particular. The people like me (and most of you) who were victims of the abuse. It’s terrible, just terrible what has happened but can a phoenix rise from the ashes? I believe it can. I think it is changing because it HAS TO change.END QUOTE
The leaders I knew who did so much harm to people are still IN and still in their leadership positions, not flattened and eliminated by their own evil. They could be YOUR current leadership! People like myself are STILL M&A.
It wasn't the creeps who got eliminated from the ministry! They are still there.
Are you sure you were M&A following leaving the Corps, and not just on probation or a loa? Some probation/loa people were not to have contact during their probation/loa time frame.
My undestanding is that --if we wanted to go back to fellowship--we would have to contact the creep who M&A'd us( who is still a region coord), do whatever restitution for our weaknesses( which was basically that we didn't want our Household Fellowship coord--who is still a coord--to be actual head of OUR family, able to make decisions both personal and financial for us, two adults with children), do whatever he demands and be on a type of probation before we would be allowed back into the 'household'.
If they have learned so much about why they were so wrong, and know they hurt people, why aren't these now godly leaders contacting people to try to heal the damage they did? Most of us are easy to find on the internet white pages.
Haven't heard of any.
No offense, Thin Lizzy, but your view sounds like a fantasy not based in TWI reality. I have no interest in returning to TWI, but even if I still believed the PFAL doctrine I would not, because I wouldn't want my kids involved in a group that could turn on them, like we saw TWI do to us and many others..
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Hey you !! I left in 2000 as well...Geesh, if I didnt have my but in the aDV. CLass I would of been dirt. I had to take Intermediate 5 hrs away and then be ready for a month of weekend anothers 3hrs away for AD. Class the very following week........talking about crazy......never will they have hold on my life again....come hell or high water...
Excuse me...respector of people.they are manipulators and lie'rs.(sp) never have to had to type this word..ha.
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Jim
I thought it was the cool green nametag....
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Thin Lizzy
I'm still in The Way and got a LOT of grief for not attending the AC a couple years ago but I just didn't want to go - after dropping from the W.C. a decade ago, I just didn't want to get into that much "Way Commitment". Once bitten, twice shy. HOWEVER, I have to say that TWIGS must be like jobs in a certain sense of it because I changed twigs months ago and this one is wayyy (pardon the pun) different. In fact, the leadership at this Twig said that the ministry had hurt a LOT of people and was trying to come back from it. A lot of people like me who'd put their heart into the ministry and go burned by the religion of it would A) never come back or B) take a loooonnnngggg time trusting any leadership again. What's funny is that I had just come out of a fellowship that had been pushing me to increase my commitment and it was really straining my personal relationship with my spouse (who is not a (Way) Believer). Nevertheless, this new fellowship, the leadership had recently come from HQ and was telling me that we as believers needed to STOP pushing that crap down other people's throats. People don't get committed to a marriage overnight. They don't change jobs overnight. People don't change their lives overnight. Anyway, I think many, many people in The Way Ministry do want to help people. They want to spread the Word of God, the healing balm for the wounds of life. But like anything that is run by people, it can run awry! Well, to answer your questions, I think the Ministry is really trying to get back to what it was when I took the class and started going to fellowship back in the 80's. At this fellowship, we do things that (at best) would be described as unconventional but is very, very good for someone like me - who felt like they training to be a guard at Aushwitz in the 90's before leaving the W.C. It reminds me that every fellowship is self-supporting. I left because I saw what The Ministry was becoming, I came back for the same reasons. For the most part, no one is going to apologize to you for some Nazi Rhetoric that they were trained to spew at you but I have had people tell me they are sorry for what happened to me, sorry THAT it happened and maybe it was a good learning tool for me. I pour my heart out to God and no one is my priest! I confess to no one but Him and that is the way it was always supposed to be. So maybe now that they got the sh@#t kicked out of them in public spotlight, they cleaned house and the people who've kept their mouths shut (the rest of the world watching the jews be executed) are finally outraged and trying to make it right.
Thanks, I'll take sweet cream in my coffee. And I'll take another Danish too.
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likeaneagle
thin lizzy,
are you saying they are restructuring the way they handle the word or are you saying you see signs of remorse?there is a big difference. I dont think keeping ones mouth closed is the answer or the key to Power.
Welcome..sorry, I think the wait staff has left for the evening. You can put a quarter in the cup on the counter and help yourself:) You are welcomed to the cafe. :D
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markomalley
I am very thankful for the Advanced Class, myself.
I took AC'88 at Emporia. It was an enlightening experience for me. Being a mere peon, the highest "spiritual giant" I had met prior to that time was Joe Guarini (requisat in pacem) or Wolfgang Schneider. At that time, I thought that the VAST marjority of people in TWI were incredible men/women of God. I heard the greatness of their teachings either on tape or at the Rock. All the believers I had run into until that time had nothing but praise for these spiritual giants. It really never had occured to me that it could all be a lie.
I then had the chance to meet a few of the true giants in the ministry. T*m J*nki*s was example #1. Then I actually had the great honor of meeting Loy Craig Martin(puke). I had some questions during the conduct of the class, but, then when I met the forehead, I knew something was horribly wrong. Initially, I thought that it might have been me...but the thought was planted.
And I started looking and asking questions and reading "unapproved" stuff (this is long before Waydale or Trancechat or whatever else). ROA 88 came...unlike the previous two I had the privilege of attending since returning to the states (I got into TWI while stationed in Germany), I didn't remember being horribly "blessed," tremendously motivated to go back and "move the Word," etc. Something was HORRIBLY wrong. Literally, the only things I remember from that ROA were (1) sitting outside the big top during one of the keynote "teachings" and laughing my a$$ off and (2) having some really good sex (I'll leave the details out of this for the moment)...one incident in particular that stands out in my mind, but again, propriety tells me to leave it alone. But that's IT!!! I was, frankly, relieved it was done and was well glad to go back home.
And then I started running into more disaffected way corps and hearing things. I got ahold of a copy of the POP. etc., etc.
And then I get married and my first wife died. (she went off her epilepsy meds and had a seizure/swallowed her tongue while asleep...thank you TWI for teaching her the "law of believing" so thoroughly)
And then I have the inestimable privilege of meeting everybody's buddy Rico M, when he was on his interim corps year in Carbondale, IL.
And then I see the infamous loyalty letter, shown to me by my WC T/C. (Who, btw, was DFAC not long after I left)
And I knew it was time to leave. I had a permanent change of station move coming up, so I decided that this would be the best time to drop off the face of the planet...hoping that things would sort themselves out while I was stationed overseas...and the rest is history.
All of this started as a result of going to AC88. When I see the living h3ll that those of you who were in TWI through the '90s had to deal with, looking back on it, I think the $450-$500 price tag of the AC was CHEAP...after all, it opened my eyes so that I could start seeing the truth of the matter...and was able to avoid the hell of TWI II/ TWI III (depending upon whose breakdown you read).
So I, for one, am VERY grateful for the Advanced Class!!!
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likeaneagle
I had 2 different Adv.Classes. Both done by LCM.......spiritual disgrace. I have actualy learned more since my departure. I think God was protecting me during both. what does that tell you.
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excathedra
so sorry about your dear wife, mark
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markomalley
Long time ago. She was a true saint. Wonderful heart. Here's a funny: she was a born Catholic. Her father really, really wanted a Catholic funeral. Me, I thought, fine, OK. Doesn't really matter. Her sisters, as I recall, were both WC grads. Guess who said a Rosary for the repose of my late wife's soul? Guess who were the only ones saying it? Yup, right on both counts!
It suits me just fine, now, as I can imagine you realize. But it was a HUGE shock to me at that time.
Anyway, I am certain that she is with Christ. So, no worries... (mind you I still have a Mass said every year on the anniversary of her death...)
But thanks for the kind thoughts.
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Thin Lizzy
Ummm....maybe I was not clear. Many, many of current way believers ARE very sorry for all the S%@$t that happened. Sorry that they were hurt, sorry that they hurt others. Yes, they are restructuring some of what was taught because bad practice became bad doctrine and how can anyone say "Do what I say not what I do" when we SEE the sermon. Yes, there is remorse. People who stood up (me) - got slapped down. People who questioned - got kicked. I didn't stay in and now I can say that I didn't stay out either but what I can say is that I believe and can SEE that people are trying to change the ministry - in doctrine and in practice. Some people have been so badly burned, they will never come back and that chapter in their life is closed. So be it. Sell the books on Ebay and call it over. BUT it's not over for many, many people and The Way will come back and stronger because the heart of what I believe The Way was meant to be (is not me controlling you or you controlling some poor slob who wandered off the street and would rather come to Twig than be alone every night -) it's about The Love of God in the Renewed Mind in Manifestation. I believe in God and I believe that Satan exists and it appears that for a period of time, they were both changing work shifts at The Way but I can tell you first hand that not everybody had him (the latter) as a boss, only some and most of those have been ousted. So it's turning around. Slowly but it is turning. I only hope that the people I hurt when I was in can find it in their hearts to forgive me. I don't think I hurt many (I'd like to think) but I can remember a few and it crushes my heart when I think of some of the things I did and said because I thought it was right or because it's all I knew or because I was afraid. I wish I could tell them FACE TO FACE that I am sorry, that I was wrong but I don't even know where they are or if they'd even care. I believe the Way Ministry is changing because I am The Way Ministry and I have changed. Off with the old and on with the New. God is I AM THAT I AM. and that's enough for me.
I don't think I knew you or your wife but I am sorry for your loss. Thanks for the topic reply. It was VERY interesting and informative.
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Vyctorya911
I took the advanced class on WA&P & still required to have no debt & no mortgage. I left in the year 2000. My then husband & I were having problems because I wanted out of the ministry. I suffered a stroke that year & both my then hubby & the way said it was because I was walking out from under God's protection & not submitting to my hubby. After that I had enough & left him & the ministry & have had no regrets about it.
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jackdaniels
Thin Lizzy,
From someone who has just left who has been in for many years, The Way Leadership is not changing.
There is many way believers who see whats wrong, some leave, some stand up and say something and get kicked out, others want to stick around and change it. I am very thankful for what I have learned growing up in this ministry, But when the people who are supposed to lead God's people, dont give a flip for the hearts of God's kids, they are no longer representitives of God!
Saul was called, Saul turned away from God. It has happened before, Has it happened again?
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markomalley
Thank you for your kind words and welcome to gsc. Hope you stick around for a while.
You will find a diversity of opinions here...everything from people who still go with basically the doctrine that twi taught, to calvinists, to Catholics (no, I'm not the only one), to Jews, to Agnostics, to burnt-out-on-it-all, to neo-Pagans, etc.
You can learn a whole bunch if you're willing to listen and look with honest, open eyes.
You may be interested in checking out the Doctrine forum...we have some pretty good scriptural discussions there from a whole host of point of views. Again, you may be able to learn something if you're willing to look honestly at what you have been taught...
Regardless, welcome aboard!
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
lizze
yes welcome
stick around and learn
i for one will never knock you for what you believe
god bless and peace
dennis
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Bramble
The Advanced Wap class was exhausting I thought. Or maybe it was the huge fee we had to pay to stay in a motel for the whole thing. Plus we had seen some pretty ugly stuff in the past couple of years, so were no longer so rah rah way.
What, a couple thousand dollars spent for a class--with absolutely nothing of any use to show for it. Little plastic name tag. We did see a great increase in pressure on our private lives once we were WAP ADV grads. Unpleasant.
I wouldn't get too comfortable if I was IN.
I doubt they've changed the "man of god for our day and time" doctrine--if they can find one, they'll have another... pipeline to God and all. Makes them more special than other groups. Then you'll be hopping to his particular tune. New classes to pay for etc. New hoops.
Doubt they've changed the structure of authority, or the 'obey your leaders' doctrine...
Doubt that there is any way to handle a poor or manipulative or even mentally ill leader. You innies just have to watch your fellow believers drop like flies and hope like He!! you're staying under the radar, because it could be you next. Other churches--there are procedures set up to deal with situations like that.
Doubt you have any voice at all inside TWI.
Doubt that TWI discloses their financial records like real churches do.
Doubt they allow actual discussion on doctrine rather than the Word is what we say the Word is.
Doubt you can safely go to your innie friends and speak of any doubts you might have about the ministry without risking being tattled on.
Doubt that any lowly twiggie/advanced class grad has any kind of voice to bring about change.
Doubt that any actual leaders within TWI are contacting people who's lives they crushed to say sorry, I was wrong...haven't heard of even one(though I have heard of some who've left that have done that.)
IMO the structure of leadership in TWI rewards manipulators and contollers, while loving and compassionate folk get chewed and spit out, people that want to right a wrong get demonized.
Got a call from an innie not too long ago, one who had been in our twig back when we ran one many years ago. This innie thought that maybe the Way got a little too carried away with interference in private lives and also thought mark and avoid was carried out too much(six years since we left and had last spoken). I was very glad to hear that none of Innie's children, who I adored when they were in our twig, and are now all grown up, will have anything to do with TWI. I told Innie to be thankful for that--none of them would end up being ground up at some future time by some 'loving' leader.
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LornaDoone
"Ummm....maybe I was not clear. Many, many of current way believers ARE very sorry for all the S%@$t that happened. Sorry that they were hurt, sorry that they hurt others. Yes, they are restructuring some of what was taught because bad practice became bad doctrine and how can anyone say "Do what I say not what I do" when we SEE the sermon. Yes, there is remorse. People who stood up (me) - got slapped down. People who questioned - got kicked. I didn't stay in and now I can say that I didn't stay out either but what I can say is that I believe and can SEE that people are trying to change the ministry - in doctrine and in practice. Some people have been so badly burned, they will never come back and that chapter in their life is closed."
Lizzy I believed just like you & for a long time stayed in more to "protect" others who were very vulnerable. I too hoped things would change. However; God is our reason for living, not TWI. In order for God's Word to live again for any believer they have to move forward. You are part of The Body of Christ, not The Body of The Way Ministry. If the believers at TWI are truly sorry & want to really see The Mystery live again, they have to leave. They have a corrupt leadership that God can no longer work with but he can work in individuals. Whenever a new person comes what do you have to offer them, Corrupt leaders that are hard hearted and legalistic. So why not live your lifes dream and start a fellowship. You will see God as never before. You do NOT need a title over your fellowship, just The Body of Christ & you are a member in particular. The TWI will never improve they blew their chance and GOD has moved on thru those that left and are moving ahead with The Word Over The World.
God bless you and yours and have a WONDERFUL THANKSGIVING
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WordWolf
My suggestion would be to have a few ways
to keep communication open between as many
HEALTHY CHRISTIANS as you can.
If things happen exactly as you say,
the open communication will only make
things better.
If they happen the way most of us saw
them happen to us,
then you'll NEED to be able to communicate
with each other.
Given a corrupt structure you're trying to
change,
one or more of you is likely to be stepped
on or kicked out and M&A'ed.
ONCE THAT HAPPENS,
open communication can help that person,
and the rest of you can see he was
better off OUT and so are you.
So, either way, open communication
networks are better.
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Oakspear
This conversation about the Advanced Class got me thinking about how we as wayfers would often be thoroughly and obnoxiously convinced about things we did not understand.
When I took the AC in 1978 there was a handout called "the numerics of the manifestations", where Wierwille ties in the numerical order of each manifestation as it's listed with the significance of each number as taught by Bullinger in Number in Scripture.
When Martindale taught his second version of the AC (the first was just a reteaching of Wierwille's PFAL Advanced Class, the 2nd was officially The Advanced Class on the Way of Abundance and Power) he taught the manifestations in the order that they are listed in Corinthians, with the exception of the so-called worship manifestations.
Before the class was released Martindale mentioned that for years he didn't understand the whole concept of "the numerics of the manifestations", but taught it anyway!
How many things did we all spout off like "there are no starts in the north" from Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed to the whole concept of "God can only give what he is: spirit"?
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Samurai
A leopard can't change their spots. What TWI really is will eventually be in full evidence sooner or later sometime down the pike because it is what it is and that's all it will ever be.
I don't doubt that there are some sincere people still in there trying to help people heal. Heck, we were all part of it once too, there to help. And there were always some special leader or coordinator who cared more about the people than the rules and regulations of the corrup religion called TWI: but they were outnumbered by the power hungry, cookie cutter, fax images of the Man of God (have briefcase will travel..up the Way Tree.)
And of course, these true hearted people did make life in TWI bearable while we stood among those who berated us. But did they really help us see the true colors of TWI and help us make the right decision or only prolong the suffering of staying around a dead stinking dog because of our loyalty to good people rather than to ourselves or our families or even our supposed one on one with God?
Back to the Advanced Class. I took it in 1986. There was nothing in there that I hadn't known before. It cost what, like $450?? Plus traveling expenses to get there? It certainly wasn't worth it. I left TWI a few years after taking the class and would have puked if LCM had demanded that after all that, we had to take YET another class to be considered anything of import to them.
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Belle
I didn't get to have a long honeymoon because I had to use all my vacation time to spend 2 weeks in Rome City taking the Advanced Class. I didn't have any money to buy nice presents for those helping with the wedding because I had to pay $500 for the class and travel costs to get there.
I HAD to go because Moneyhands wouldn't marry us if I wasn't an Advanced Class grad.
I also thought it was exhausting. I never went to the thing after the last session because I was too tired. I'd go straight to my room and go to bed. I didn't get up till the last minute in the mornings, either and then struggled to stay awake during the dang sessions. I wasn't really happy to be there and I was an emotional wreck during the whole time, before and after, too. Georgi@ R@ve died while I was there and God had told me that was going to happen. I missed her memorial service and was sorry about that.
Think Lizzy, WELCOME TO THE CAFE!!! It's good to "read" you! I see you've already had a danish. I made some special Thanksgiving Cookies this morning; would you care for a few of these?
*edited because I forgot to actually offer the cookies.
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oldiesman
Welcome Thin Lizzy.
I wasn't sure about what you said about "still being in The Way"; are you in or out?
Anyway, hope you stick around and share.
Oakspear, did you take your class at Virginia Beach? me too. :P
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outandabout
If they're actually trying to change, well, good for them.
But I think they're too far gone at this point, too much damage done. It's too late.
All the changing will never get me back there. Once you leave, and find out that life is better without TWI, why ever go back?
I don't care how much they change.
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rascal
I guess when an apology has been issued, restitution has been offered, I will believe that there is hope for the group..... Which biblically speaking is their minimal responsibility.
What the good hearted folks are now doing in attempting change is no darn different than what tens of thousands of us attempted to do for decades ....in reality, the only thing that is accomplished is that the very same evil people and policies are still being supported by good hearted folks
That is how they get their continued support.....people believe that at the core...the ministry WANTS to be good and Godly...
I`d like to point out that the people who are in charge currently are STILL the very same people that have been documented in a court of law as being aware and facillitating the most heinous abuse and practices in twi.
The only reason that the rampant abuse seen before isn`t so visable these days is because the eyes of the legal community are upon them...just waiting for them to step one single toe out of line .....
They cannot get away with what they once did.
The people who are fighting to save the ministry are no different than the tens of thousands of pure hearted souls that were used and cast aside before them.
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Thin Lizzy
Yes, I am fighting to save the ministry because it saved my life. It's fine for everybody who wants to walk away and call it over but I can't do it because I remember the agony of the spirit realm. I was tortured by the spirits in my mind and then suddenly, I was 18 and made a bet with God. For years, I had went to many churches, looked up other organizations, talked to many, many folks about The Bible and I could find no power. I was in seances and there was power. I operated devil spirits and black magic and there was power. I did drugs and dealt drugs and there was power but my heart longed to know God, to be good. I knew there was spiritual power available on "the dark side" but nothing seemed to evident on the side of God. Fed up, I told God that if He didn't show me His Will and His Word, I was going to kill myself because I was DONE with this world. Then I got witnessed to and once they kicked out the devil spirits and I could read again (lost the ability to understand or read english during the witnessing encounter, which was a big deal since it was/is my primary language), I got born again. I spoke in tongues 3 months later. I had lived with pain for a couple years (from a severe injury) and I took PFAL and got miraculous healing from it during the class. I have seen the lame walk. I have been at death's door. I have been physically mamed by spirits. I know what the world has to offer without the Word of God and I know there are others who are in the same situation. This ministry saved my life. There are others who need it. I want it to live for those people too.
Okay, so maybe it almost ruined my life too but I found the balance and the desire of my heart in my spouse. God IS good always. I just remember that. God is good ALWAYS.
Thanks for the yummy turkey cookies! Super duper gobbling good! I'll have another round of coffee, if you please.
Oh before I go - Thanks for all the welcoming by the way! I really appreciate it.
I’m not retarded to what the ministry was, became, and now is. I also was Marked & Avoided when I left the W.C. in the 90's. Boy, was that pretty horrible! I took the AC 4X and each time it was exhilarating and exhausting. Of course, that was at the Indiana Campus where people stayed on campus the whole class and didn't have to shuffle between the Motels/Hotels which must be pretty awful. I talked to a friend who recently attended (last year) and the schedule was very hectic. Getting committed even one step at a time takes a LOT of time and a LOT of money but I've always believed that people make the time and find the money for what interests them so I guess I always justified to myself that that's what it was for me. I came back after nearly a decade of absence just a few years ago and found some of the changes disturbing. The Ministry was a LOT like New Orleans after the hurricane, leveled and hurting. Now many Way people would say that spiritually New Orleans brought it on themselves, just like Sodom & Gomorrah and if that is the case, then it could be reasoned that The Way Ministry had the same thing happen to them and were (in that same sense)spiritually deserving of it. Although we are not supposed to be joyful when bad things happen, at what point can we justify the relief and the true THANK GOD! feeling that we had when the spiritual hurricane leveled The Way ministry. I feel they had it coming and I hope the people who hurt me spent just as much time in tears and in frustration as I did. Now that it’s mostly done and justice has been served, I can move on. I can forgive the emotional rapists because justice was served. Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT against the ministry, nor do I want it to fall or fail. However, the cancer of pride, anger and lust for money and power corrupted many people and that was the welcome wagon to the d.s. realm to rack & ruin the ministry and what I mean by rack & ruin is not just the ministry in it's corporate HQ in Ohio but in it's members in particular. The people like me (and most of you) who were victims of the abuse. It’s terrible, just terrible what has happened but can a phoenix rise from the ashes? I believe it can. I think it is changing because it HAS TO change. When the government can come in and tell you that you’re breaking the LAW, at what point do the leaders figure out that there is more corruption than what meets the eye. Leadership is changing and many have changed. The current Way Corps is different. They are being trained differently. The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves. They are not ½ human, ½ WAYFER cyborg but rather all-heart, all-go people, like I remember them being. People with heart AND confidence – what a combination. Have we really come full circle back to “GOD WORKS IN YOU”, instead of “God is working in you only if I (being a leader) recognize God working in you and can fully agree that yes, it is God working in you and it’s not some spiritual mix-up”. When LCM said in 1992 that he didn’t get involved in people’s personal lives or their finances because people have to make the Word their own and they answer to God in their heart of hearts, he was right. If they had stayed on that track, all would have been well but alas, the deception was already weaving and the illusion clarifying and we all know what happened after that. Nevertheless, the end of my Saga is that I believe God works in us as we believe HIS Word and as we renew our minds and put off the old man nature. I am IN the ministry because I can hear the voice of God when I draw closer to Him and to His Word and the ministry helps me with that. I give and I take; they give and they take and as long as it stays within the boundaries of what I find acceptable, I will stay but experience has taught me to be warned and to be wary. Sincerity is no guarantee for truth.
Keep your stick on the ice!
Happy Thanksgiving!
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Bramble
QUOTE:
The Ministry was a LOT like New Orleans after the hurricane, leveled and hurting. Now many Way people would say that spiritually New Orleans brought it on themselves, just like Sodom & Gomorrah and if that is the case, then it could be reasoned that The Way Ministry had the same thing happen to them and were (in that same sense)spiritually deserving of it. Although we are not supposed to be joyful when bad things happen, at what point can we justify the relief and the true THANK GOD! feeling that we had when the spiritual hurricane leveled The Way ministry. I feel they had it coming and I hope the people who hurt me spent just as much time in tears and in frustration as I did. Now that it’s mostly done and justice has been served, I can move on. I can forgive the emotional rapists because justice was served. Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT against the ministry, nor do I want it to fall or fail. However, the cancer of pride, anger and lust for money and power corrupted many people and that was the welcome wagon to the d.s. realm to rack & ruin the ministry and what I mean by rack & ruin is not just the ministry in it's corporate HQ in Ohio but in it's members in particular. The people like me (and most of you) who were victims of the abuse. It’s terrible, just terrible what has happened but can a phoenix rise from the ashes? I believe it can. I think it is changing because it HAS TO change.END QUOTE
The leaders I knew who did so much harm to people are still IN and still in their leadership positions, not flattened and eliminated by their own evil. They could be YOUR current leadership! People like myself are STILL M&A.
It wasn't the creeps who got eliminated from the ministry! They are still there.
Are you sure you were M&A following leaving the Corps, and not just on probation or a loa? Some probation/loa people were not to have contact during their probation/loa time frame.
My undestanding is that --if we wanted to go back to fellowship--we would have to contact the creep who M&A'd us( who is still a region coord), do whatever restitution for our weaknesses( which was basically that we didn't want our Household Fellowship coord--who is still a coord--to be actual head of OUR family, able to make decisions both personal and financial for us, two adults with children), do whatever he demands and be on a type of probation before we would be allowed back into the 'household'.
If they have learned so much about why they were so wrong, and know they hurt people, why aren't these now godly leaders contacting people to try to heal the damage they did? Most of us are easy to find on the internet white pages.
Haven't heard of any.
No offense, Thin Lizzy, but your view sounds like a fantasy not based in TWI reality. I have no interest in returning to TWI, but even if I still believed the PFAL doctrine I would not, because I wouldn't want my kids involved in a group that could turn on them, like we saw TWI do to us and many others..
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