Heck, nowadays......even high school students have to be WARY OF PLAGERISM when writing their papers and documenting their sources.
From what I've heard, there are websites that exclusively help to target those who plagerize others' work and will do extensive background research to investigate. High schoolers are instructed of this.......and to properly follow "research and writing protocol."
Why did veepee sidestep these ethics in his post-graduate work (??) and into his early start-up ministry work? Was veepee lazy? deceitful? jealous? conniving?
Doojable, as you might know.......this topic has run its course a dozen times or so. And, of course, Mike will show up to share "the God-breathed pfal" doctrine.
Dr did reference many of his human sources and in many ways, just not the usual academic ways.
I'm glad he didn't clutter up the main PFAL books with footnotes. When I needed a big rescue 35 years ago, I wasn't looking for pointy headed scholasticism to do it. I wasn't interested in following up on any of his references except for the KJV verses. The main collaterals were meant to be healing to the readers, and Dr wasn't building a University to someday become accredited when the collaterals were written. Some of those academic citation methods were used in some later books, though.
We don't use academic citation methods here at GSC. Why not?
The fact that "How to Enjoy the Bible" and many other source materials Dr drew from were sold in the Way Bookstore was a form of referencing. That wouldn't cut it at a University, but it was sufficient for me. Dr often mentioned many of his sources on tapes, and nearly every book's "About the Author" mentions many of the men he drew from.
I say leave the cluttering academic footnotes for every elemental idea out of both GSC and the collaterals.
Once in a while footnotes can be instructive, but the CYA use of them shouldn't be needed in a family situation, which is what we were supposedly working towards. Yes, I can see the training benefits of insisting on extensive footnotes for the Corps, but not for the family at large.
***
You wrote: "Gee, what would have happened if people actually read someone else's work instead of his? - no royalties!"
They made very little to nothing on the sale of books. This has been discussed here much.
What actually WOULD have happened had we checked the source of every paragraph Dr wrote from "proper" footnotes would have been an interrupted reading and learning environment, AND confusion for new inquisitive students swallowing whole many errors which contaminated the writings that Dr used.
There's a whole lot more thinking through on this subject that needs to be done here. I hope I helped stimulate some new thinking.
The fact that "How to Enjoy the Bible" and many other source materials Dr drew from were sold in the Way Bookstore was a form of referencing. ...
I fully agree, with the exception of B.G. Leonard and J.E. Stiles.
VP received many ideas from them, but unlike Bullinger and Kenyon, books by Leonard and Stiles were not sold in the Way bookstore.
Was VP trying to hide these books so that folks wouldn't know VP got many ideas from Leonard and Stiles?
He did mention, verbally, that he learned many good things from these folks; ... but as to why their books were not included in the bookstore, I don't know.
I speculate that perhaps a reasonable explanation could be that he believed he was teaching more accurately, and didn't want a less accurate version sold in the bookstore?
Ya otta know by now that you can trash LCM on this site...
But, if you honestly didn't know the famous Merle Haggard song - then that, sir, is a country shame. An' some redneck's gonna call you out fer sayin' it!
an' you thought it was Skokie, IL.... why that's a cryin' shame.
No hard feelin's -
Here's your song:
Okie From Muskogee
by Merle Haggard
".... And I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee
A place where even squares can have a ball
We still wave Old Glory, down at the courthouse,
In Muskogee, Oklahoma, USA."
Now in the voice of Larry the Cable Guy - I want ta heeer you say:
I speculate that perhaps a reasonable explanation could be that he believed he was teaching more accurately, and didn't want a less accurate version sold in the bookstore?
Yeah right.................
Big time plagarist veepee wanted to distance himself far from the work of BG Leonard.
Today we concur. Some of Dr's sources had tolerable error and some did not. The bookstore had only the tolerable.
I think there were PROBABLY more intolerable errors in Leonard and Styles, so reference to them was slightly more hidden so as to be only found by more advanced PFAL students.
I know Leonard was rabid on the manifestations being called gifts and very convincingly forceful about it. I liken it to the false respect that trinitarians strut by putting Jesus on a pedestal that's too high. The word "gift" SEEMS to give God more credit than a "manifestation" if it's not already well cemented in mind that God gave the gift that the manifestation is a manifestation OF! Most young students never have even heard the word "manifestation" in spiritual circles, so it sounds yucky compared to gift.
Emotional plays by trinitarians and over-pedestalizers have a strong tug on less mature and less informed minds. Anyone know if Styles was a rabid trinitarian? How about talking to the dead? There's another emotion roller coaster.
I remember hearing when I was a young PFAL student that Bullinger was great on some things, but that he missed SIT due to his wrong dividing of the administrations. Though this may also look like an intolerable error, it's not laced with emotion like an immediate life after death and the trinity are.
Bullinger's good outweighed the bad by far. Same with Kenyon and others who made it into the bookstore.
Plus, Dr did invite many of those writers not in the bookstore (and many more) to speak at HQ. I saw several speakers there who were off the wall on some things, and Dr cautioned us on it before and after. So he wasn't totally insular (like things became much later), but he did much to protect young students from footnote distraction and error derailing.
******
Allan,
Thanks.
Hey, I've been trying to e-mail you for months but can't get through. Please PM me, ok?
Might be funny to you, but not as funny as it is to me that Raf can't see with his "ignore" shields set to "Mike" that I addressed his concern already near the end of my last post with:
"Plus, Dr did invite many of those writers not in the bookstore (and many more) to speak at HQ. I saw several speakers there who were off the wall on some things, and Dr cautioned us on it before and after. So he wasn't totally insular (like things became much later), but he did much to protect young students from footnote distraction and error derailing."
PLUS, when I talk of clutter I know what I'm talking about. There's NO WAY Dr could have given credit to ALL his sources. When I worked at the bookstore at HQ every few months or so Mrs. Allen's desk would be piled two feet high with stacks of freshly ordered books just for Dr's use. Dr went through quantities of books like no other man I ever knew.
(Those "ignore" settings are insidiously beguiling. I think it should be public knowledge just who is ignoring whom so we all know more exactly what kind of information circuits are flowing and which ones are dammed up. If someone is going to stop their ears it should be seen by all. ...Just my opinion...)
I think that it is important because in than form or way you learn to rightly divide the Word. But this should be by free will choice. What Chris Geer said was wrong. He lied. One will present approved to God rightly dividing God´s Word no mastering PFAL collaterals. :D
Dr did reference many of his human sources and in many ways, just not the usual academic ways.
[Offhand remarks here and there once in a while hardly equal the moral or legal
requirements.]
I'm glad he didn't clutter up the main PFAL books with footnotes.
[The required footnoting rarely "clutters" a book.
He could always have endnoted the chapters.]
When I needed a big rescue 35 years ago, I wasn't looking for pointy headed scholasticism to do it. I wasn't interested in following up on any of his references except for the KJV verses. The main collaterals were meant to be healing to the readers, and Dr wasn't building a University to someday become accredited when the collaterals were written.
[Actually, they weren't meant to be "healing",
they were meant to MAKE MONEY. That's why they were priced RETAIL.
When the first classes started, he never had a textbook.
That's because he only had 3 months between taking BG Leonard's CTC class
and the first time he taught BG Leonard's CTC class and said it was his OWN
class on Power For Abundant Living.
It would have been just as "healing" to use the correct name,
but it would have brought less money.]
Some of those academic citation methods were used in some later books, though.
[That was when real writers did the writing.
THOSE books, BTW, feature NO work by vpw, and are labelled "BY" him
and not the staff or whoever. So the books THEMSELVES demonstrate
improper citation-and that's the ONLY part that was HIS job-
see that those who DID the work got proper credit FOR their work.
But from Day One, that was antithetical to him.]
We don't use academic citation methods here at GSC. Why not?
[We DO. YOU don't.]
The fact that "How to Enjoy the Bible" and many other source materials Dr drew from were sold in the Way Bookstore was a form of referencing.
[No, it was a source of income. MOST of his sources were never sold in the bookstore.]
That wouldn't cut it at a University, but it was sufficient for me. Dr often mentioned many of his sources on tapes, and nearly every book's "About the Author" mentions many of the men he drew from.
[That suggests he learned from them, not that he took whole chapters of their work and
slapped his name on them. That it was sufficient for you demonstrates your lax
standards, not that this would work in a grad school, university, community college,
high school, or a junior high school. Try telling that one in court and see how far you get.]
I say leave the cluttering academic footnotes for every elemental idea out of both GSC and the collaterals.
[You say a lot of things.]
Once in a while footnotes can be instructive, but the CYA use of them shouldn't be needed in a family situation, which is what we were supposedly working towards.
[Wierwille disagrees. He put copyright notices on EVERYTHING he supposedly "wrote".
That's what everyone except Mike calls "hypocrisy". ]
Yes, I can see the training benefits of insisting on extensive footnotes for the Corps, but not for the family at large.
[Then explain to vpw that HE was in ERROR when he used copyrights,
when the only people who COULD by the books we just "the family at large." ]
***
You wrote: "Gee, what would have happened if people actually read someone else's work instead of his? - no royalties!"
They made very little to nothing on the sale of books. This has been discussed here much.
[The books were charged RETAIL. They had almost NO overhead on them and charged RETAIL
for them. The "markup" on the books was a LOT. This HAS been discussed here.
Those of us with insufficient reading skills may have MISSED that.]
What actually WOULD have happened had we checked the source of every paragraph Dr wrote from "proper" footnotes would have been an interrupted reading and learning environment, AND confusion for new inquisitive students swallowing whole many errors which contaminated the writings that Dr used.
[sounds scary. Of course, that doomsday scenario NEVER plays out when proper creditation
is given. Mike supposedly has a scientific background, and doesn't know that
bedlam doesn't break out as students read their textbooks,
in grad school,
college,
high school,
etc. ]
There's a whole lot more thinking through on this subject that needs to be done here. I hope I helped stimulate some new thinking.
[No, it's the same old, same old...]
Well said Mike.Even the companion Bible the Way produced has Bullingers name all over it.
I think mastering pfal is of great benefit to anyone who ever wondered about the Bible 'fitting together."
Why LCM didn't just 'improve' on it all is beyond me.( Guess he really was just an Okie from the Skokie)
whatever that means !!!!!
Your level of ignorance occasionally astounds me.
The Way didn't PRODUCE a Companion Bible.
They purchased the rights to PRINT a run of that book.
If they made the slightest alteration to its contents,
they would have been committing an illegal act and
VIOLATING THE LICENSE THEY PURCHASED.
EW Bullinger wrote the Companion Bible.
ANYONE altering it in the slightest breaks the law,
and whenever vpw used exerpts from it WITHOUT
citation, he was breaking the law.
So, twi had no authority to REMOVE his name from the book,
nor to switch anyone else's name for it.
That's not "noble" of them-that's avoiding a trip to prison.
Some of those academic citation methods were used in some later books, though.
WordWolf, thank you for the more accurate rendering of a Mike post.
I'm quoting this particular section to establish that the academic citation methods used by "Dr." Wierwille did not clutter up the work, as Mike falsely asserts.
Today we concur. Some of Dr's sources had tolerable error and some did not. The bookstore had only the tolerable.
I think there were PROBABLY more intolerable errors in Leonard and Styles, so reference to them was slightly more hidden so as to be only found by more advanced PFAL students.
[Considering that vpw copied Leonard WORD-FOR-WORD, that is both incorrect
and slanderous. It's also UNFOUNDED, since you have no exposure to Leonard's
work. You're GUESSING Leonard's work was full of errors. ]
I know Leonard was rabid on the manifestations being called gifts and very convincingly forceful about it.
[so you think Leonard would kick you out of the room or something for
calling them "manifestations?"
He never sued vpw when he CAUGHT him breaking the law.
He's famous for having a pleasant and patient disposition.
"Rabid?" "Forceful?"
If he was, vpw would have been turfed on his butt the first day he showed
up on Leonard's doorstep.]
I liken it to the false respect that trinitarians strut by putting Jesus on a pedestal that's too high.
[Yeah-that really will lead to the fall of Western civilization, won't it.....]
The word "gift" SEEMS to give God more credit than a "manifestation" if it's not already well cemented in mind that God gave the gift that the manifestation is a manifestation OF! Most young students never have even heard the word "manifestation" in spiritual circles, so it sounds yucky compared to gift.
[And yet,
a LOT of people who only call them "gifts" know how to use them PROPERLY.
I've communicated with some of them.]
Emotional plays by trinitarians and over-pedestalizers have a strong tug on less mature and less informed minds.
[Emotional plays include things like connecting the usage of the manifestations
EXCLUSIVELY with PAID CLASSES, ensuring BRAND LOYALTY...]
Anyone know if Styles was a rabid trinitarian? How about talking to the dead? There's another emotion roller coaster.
[Don't let anything like lack of evidence stop you from
manufacturing complaints about Stiles like you just did about
Leonard... Be consistent with your immoral libel. ]
I remember hearing when I was a young PFAL student that Bullinger was great on some things, but that he missed SIT due to his wrong dividing of the administrations.
[interesting how you heard that, when NOBODY who took or taught PFAL was ALIVE when
Bullinger was, so charges like this are, again, wild speculation.
Since you were taught to do this as a young PFAL student, one might not
blame you fully for behaving immorally towards your brothers in Christ.
Plus, Bullinger's breakdown of the administrations makes more sense
than vpw's. ]
Though this may also look like an intolerable error, it's not laced with emotion like an immediate life after death and the trinity are.
[baseless speculation does resemble intolerable error, I agree.
It IS also laced with emotion-and is meant to stir them up while
avoiding EVIDENCE for a charge.]
Bullinger's good outweighed the bad by far. Same with Kenyon and others who made it into the bookstore.
[so far you've yet to mention any "bad" by Bullinger that wasn't made up
by you or someone else.
Not from lack of trying-you've manufactured OTHER charges against
him BEFORE...]
Plus, Dr did invite many of those writers not in the bookstore (and many more) to speak at HQ. I saw several speakers there who were off the wall on some things, and Dr cautioned us on it before and after. So he wasn't totally insular (like things became much later), but he did much to protect young students from footnote distraction and error derailing.
[Actually,
he invited guests who were fans of the Liberty Lobby and so on.
He went out of his way to insulate "his" group from all other Christians.]
I have read many a book with citations. I don't run to every source and read it nor do I find it distracting. What they tend to do is show that work was done and respect was paid.
I wasn't around 35 years ago. I never had the benefit of hearing all these speakers although I heard aobut the "good old days." I WAS around 27 years ago so you would think that some of that habit of bringing in speakers like BG Leonard would have still persisted. No such luck.
Look, it was always supposed to be about God and His Word - not the man with the research. It never bugged me tht the books on Orientalisms didn't have VP's name on them. Didn't make me want to run out and join his church. I was glad that I was in a ministry where what was (or seemed ) to be important was that we all learn to think for ourselves.
And THAT is why the citings should have been made......
Making books by other writers availabe in a bookstore (which they weren't by the time I got into TWI - at least not at meetings) is not giving credit - it is making money. Someone is intent on giving a very wde berth to VPW. He was a minister - but they make mistakes and can even screw up big time. That was a mistake that at least has the appearance of dishonesty. And it seems to me that we are to avoid such appearances if possible.
Oh and TWI didn not come out with the companion Bible - that would be Zondervan. You can get that bible even today at any Christian bookstore - I know because I bought one for my husband.
Wordwolf - I saw threads like this but they seemed to be too old for me to add my two cents worth and I wanted to have a say.
Might be funny to you, but not as funny as it is to me that Raf can't see with his "ignore" shields set to "Mike" that I addressed his concern already near the end of my last post with:
"Plus, Dr did invite many of those writers not in the bookstore (and many more) to speak at HQ. I saw several speakers there who were off the wall on some things, and Dr cautioned us on it before and after. So he wasn't totally insular (like things became much later), but he did much to protect young students from footnote distraction and error derailing."
PLUS, when I talk of clutter I know what I'm talking about. There's NO WAY Dr could have given credit to ALL his sources. When I worked at the bookstore at HQ every few months or so Mrs. Allen's desk would be piled two feet high with stacks of freshly ordered books just for Dr's use. Dr went through quantities of books like no other man I ever knew.
[vpw COULD have given credit to all the sources he USED. All OTHER writers
do it all the time.
Further, if he was going to forget SOMEONE, it should NOT be the 3 writers he completely
stole PFAL from in its entirety.]
(Those "ignore" settings are insidiously beguiling. I think it should be public knowledge just who is ignoring whom so we all know more exactly what kind of information circuits are flowing and which ones are dammed up. If someone is going to stop their ears it should be seen by all. ...Just my opinion...)
[No worries.
We all know EXACTLY whose ears are stopped up.]
One will present approved to God rightly dividing God´s Word no mastering PFAL collaterals. :D
See,
themex,
that's where you and I agree,
and you and Mike DISagree.
Mike believes the Bible is NOT God's Word.
Mike believes the PFAL COLLATERALS are God's Word.
Mike believes that Jesus is very interested in PFAL.
Mike believes Jesus appointed VPW the spokesman for Jesus.
Since leaving TWI many years ago I have learned many things. The main thing being that many people know what we thought we had exclusive rights to.
I am glad that when I speak to Christians they realize that I have a pretty good working knowledge of the Word. I can credit the class for helping me see that the Bible can be treated as an accurate book and not just a bunch of fairy tales. (Hey Craig - I used the words "bible" and "fairy" in the same sentence and I'm still here! oh sorry i'm back now.)
The Roman Catholic Church kept the Bible in latin because they felt that the common man couldn't handle it. Suppose they too were trying to protect their congregation from intolerable error?
No matter how many reasons you concoct it was wrong.
Controlling information is still control. When you are trying to empower people with the truth you give them enough information to help them learn how to see the truth.
Just for the record, since I saw it in WW's post, whom I do read and whom I do respect, I have Mike and Allan set to be ignored, have recently added OM and am currently considering adding yet one more poster to that setting. I happen to LOVE having that option! I can't recommend it highly enough!
Why should it matter to me if someone is ignoring me? I choose to correspond with those who want to correspond with me. I certainly don't waste my time worrying about or hanging around people who don't like me - it just frustrates both of us.
(Those "ignore" settings are insidiously beguiling. I think it should be public knowledge just who is ignoring whom so we all know more exactly what kind of information circuits are flowing and which ones are dammed up. If someone is going to stop their ears it should be seen by all. ...Just my opinion...)
Mike,
I AM IGNORING YOU.
Clear enough?
As for information circuits getting dammed up in a mountain of mixed metaphors...
I seem to recall you saying that you will not listen to any information that goes against your thesis, and that your response to any real challenge is to dodge.
I am very sorry to hear that, Excathedra. I wasn't my experience. I am no fan of TWI. I just can't throw it all out since it didn't totally wreck my like.
Slipping off topic - I never had to deal with the sexual abuse - I had a friend that did - but I had no idea that it was rampant.
I had more problems in that category after leaving - with ex-way-clergy. THEN I understood why John S had to write a paper about adultery (seemed like it didn't really need saying - but I didn't know that anyone was condoning it)
In the 10 years I was "in" overall things weren't that bad for me. Now that I read posts by others I know more than I can bear about all the abuses that went on in God's name. - sort of like a grand crusade.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
45
44
64
30
Popular Days
Feb 9
42
Dec 12
39
Dec 8
35
Dec 13
33
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 45 posts
WordWolf 44 posts
Mike 64 posts
doojable 30 posts
Popular Days
Feb 9 2006
42 posts
Dec 12 2005
39 posts
Dec 8 2005
35 posts
Dec 13 2005
33 posts
skyrider
Heck, nowadays......even high school students have to be WARY OF PLAGERISM when writing their papers and documenting their sources.
From what I've heard, there are websites that exclusively help to target those who plagerize others' work and will do extensive background research to investigate. High schoolers are instructed of this.......and to properly follow "research and writing protocol."
Why did veepee sidestep these ethics in his post-graduate work (??) and into his early start-up ministry work? Was veepee lazy? deceitful? jealous? conniving?
Doojable, as you might know.......this topic has run its course a dozen times or so. And, of course, Mike will show up to share "the God-breathed pfal" doctrine.
It's bound to happen.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Since I was just invited:
Hi doojabble,
Dr did reference many of his human sources and in many ways, just not the usual academic ways.
I'm glad he didn't clutter up the main PFAL books with footnotes. When I needed a big rescue 35 years ago, I wasn't looking for pointy headed scholasticism to do it. I wasn't interested in following up on any of his references except for the KJV verses. The main collaterals were meant to be healing to the readers, and Dr wasn't building a University to someday become accredited when the collaterals were written. Some of those academic citation methods were used in some later books, though.
We don't use academic citation methods here at GSC. Why not?
The fact that "How to Enjoy the Bible" and many other source materials Dr drew from were sold in the Way Bookstore was a form of referencing. That wouldn't cut it at a University, but it was sufficient for me. Dr often mentioned many of his sources on tapes, and nearly every book's "About the Author" mentions many of the men he drew from.
I say leave the cluttering academic footnotes for every elemental idea out of both GSC and the collaterals.
Once in a while footnotes can be instructive, but the CYA use of them shouldn't be needed in a family situation, which is what we were supposedly working towards. Yes, I can see the training benefits of insisting on extensive footnotes for the Corps, but not for the family at large.
***
You wrote: "Gee, what would have happened if people actually read someone else's work instead of his? - no royalties!"
They made very little to nothing on the sale of books. This has been discussed here much.
What actually WOULD have happened had we checked the source of every paragraph Dr wrote from "proper" footnotes would have been an interrupted reading and learning environment, AND confusion for new inquisitive students swallowing whole many errors which contaminated the writings that Dr used.
There's a whole lot more thinking through on this subject that needs to be done here. I hope I helped stimulate some new thinking.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Allan
Well said Mike.Even the companion Bible the Way produced has Bullingers name all over it.
I think mastering pfal is of great benefit to anyone who ever wondered about the Bible 'fitting together."
Why LCM didn't just 'improve' on it all is beyond me.( Guess he really was just an Okie from the Skokie)
whatever that means !!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I fully agree, with the exception of B.G. Leonard and J.E. Stiles.
VP received many ideas from them, but unlike Bullinger and Kenyon, books by Leonard and Stiles were not sold in the Way bookstore.
Was VP trying to hide these books so that folks wouldn't know VP got many ideas from Leonard and Stiles?
He did mention, verbally, that he learned many good things from these folks; ... but as to why their books were not included in the bookstore, I don't know.
I speculate that perhaps a reasonable explanation could be that he believed he was teaching more accurately, and didn't want a less accurate version sold in the bookstore?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jkboehme
Let's get David Machado of the B.G. Leonard Christian Training Center to weigh in:
http://www.ctcoftexas.com/index.html
leonardBG@cs.com
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Let's get Jayson Blair and Stephen Glass to weigh in, too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Too Gray Now
Allan - Ahem!
Get it right....dude!
Ya otta know by now that you can trash LCM on this site...
But, if you honestly didn't know the famous Merle Haggard song - then that, sir, is a country shame. An' some redneck's gonna call you out fer sayin' it!
an' you thought it was Skokie, IL.... why that's a cryin' shame.
No hard feelin's -
Here's your song:
Okie From Muskogee
by Merle Haggard
".... And I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee
A place where even squares can have a ball
We still wave Old Glory, down at the courthouse,
In Muskogee, Oklahoma, USA."
Now in the voice of Larry the Cable Guy - I want ta heeer you say:
"Lord , Forgiv-mee"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yeah right.................
Big time plagarist veepee wanted to distance himself far from the work of BG Leonard.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
oldiesman,
Today we concur. Some of Dr's sources had tolerable error and some did not. The bookstore had only the tolerable.
I think there were PROBABLY more intolerable errors in Leonard and Styles, so reference to them was slightly more hidden so as to be only found by more advanced PFAL students.
I know Leonard was rabid on the manifestations being called gifts and very convincingly forceful about it. I liken it to the false respect that trinitarians strut by putting Jesus on a pedestal that's too high. The word "gift" SEEMS to give God more credit than a "manifestation" if it's not already well cemented in mind that God gave the gift that the manifestation is a manifestation OF! Most young students never have even heard the word "manifestation" in spiritual circles, so it sounds yucky compared to gift.
Emotional plays by trinitarians and over-pedestalizers have a strong tug on less mature and less informed minds. Anyone know if Styles was a rabid trinitarian? How about talking to the dead? There's another emotion roller coaster.
I remember hearing when I was a young PFAL student that Bullinger was great on some things, but that he missed SIT due to his wrong dividing of the administrations. Though this may also look like an intolerable error, it's not laced with emotion like an immediate life after death and the trinity are.
Bullinger's good outweighed the bad by far. Same with Kenyon and others who made it into the bookstore.
Plus, Dr did invite many of those writers not in the bookstore (and many more) to speak at HQ. I saw several speakers there who were off the wall on some things, and Dr cautioned us on it before and after. So he wasn't totally insular (like things became much later), but he did much to protect young students from footnote distraction and error derailing.
******
Allan,
Thanks.
Hey, I've been trying to e-mail you for months but can't get through. Please PM me, ok?
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
sheesh, and here we go again.......
Plagerism aside, PFAL isn't worth "mastering" simply because it's full of error.
There. I've said it.
As you were, ladies and gents.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
wow... Mike AND Allan AND Oldiesman all "concurring"... who woulda thunk it?
Funny Raf! very funny!
Edited by Tom StrangeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Tom,
Might be funny to you, but not as funny as it is to me that Raf can't see with his "ignore" shields set to "Mike" that I addressed his concern already near the end of my last post with:
"Plus, Dr did invite many of those writers not in the bookstore (and many more) to speak at HQ. I saw several speakers there who were off the wall on some things, and Dr cautioned us on it before and after. So he wasn't totally insular (like things became much later), but he did much to protect young students from footnote distraction and error derailing."
PLUS, when I talk of clutter I know what I'm talking about. There's NO WAY Dr could have given credit to ALL his sources. When I worked at the bookstore at HQ every few months or so Mrs. Allen's desk would be piled two feet high with stacks of freshly ordered books just for Dr's use. Dr went through quantities of books like no other man I ever knew.
(Those "ignore" settings are insidiously beguiling. I think it should be public knowledge just who is ignoring whom so we all know more exactly what kind of information circuits are flowing and which ones are dammed up. If someone is going to stop their ears it should be seen by all. ...Just my opinion...)
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
themex
I think that it is important because in than form or way you learn to rightly divide the Word. But this should be by free will choice. What Chris Geer said was wrong. He lied. One will present approved to God rightly dividing God´s Word no mastering PFAL collaterals. :D
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[WordWolf in bold and brackets again.]
[No, it's the same old, same old...]
Your level of ignorance occasionally astounds me.
The Way didn't PRODUCE a Companion Bible.
They purchased the rights to PRINT a run of that book.
If they made the slightest alteration to its contents,
they would have been committing an illegal act and
VIOLATING THE LICENSE THEY PURCHASED.
EW Bullinger wrote the Companion Bible.
ANYONE altering it in the slightest breaks the law,
and whenever vpw used exerpts from it WITHOUT
citation, he was breaking the law.
So, twi had no authority to REMOVE his name from the book,
nor to switch anyone else's name for it.
That's not "noble" of them-that's avoiding a trip to prison.
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
WordWolf, thank you for the more accurate rendering of a Mike post.
I'm quoting this particular section to establish that the academic citation methods used by "Dr." Wierwille did not clutter up the work, as Mike falsely asserts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[ WordWolf in boldface and brackets again...]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Well, that was a can of worms.....
I have read many a book with citations. I don't run to every source and read it nor do I find it distracting. What they tend to do is show that work was done and respect was paid.
I wasn't around 35 years ago. I never had the benefit of hearing all these speakers although I heard aobut the "good old days." I WAS around 27 years ago so you would think that some of that habit of bringing in speakers like BG Leonard would have still persisted. No such luck.
Look, it was always supposed to be about God and His Word - not the man with the research. It never bugged me tht the books on Orientalisms didn't have VP's name on them. Didn't make me want to run out and join his church. I was glad that I was in a ministry where what was (or seemed ) to be important was that we all learn to think for ourselves.
And THAT is why the citings should have been made......
Making books by other writers availabe in a bookstore (which they weren't by the time I got into TWI - at least not at meetings) is not giving credit - it is making money. Someone is intent on giving a very wde berth to VPW. He was a minister - but they make mistakes and can even screw up big time. That was a mistake that at least has the appearance of dishonesty. And it seems to me that we are to avoid such appearances if possible.
Oh and TWI didn not come out with the companion Bible - that would be Zondervan. You can get that bible even today at any Christian bookstore - I know because I bought one for my husband.
Wordwolf - I saw threads like this but they seemed to be too old for me to add my two cents worth and I wanted to have a say.
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[vpw COULD have given credit to all the sources he USED. All OTHER writers
do it all the time.
Further, if he was going to forget SOMEONE, it should NOT be the 3 writers he completely
stole PFAL from in its entirety.]
[No worries.We all know EXACTLY whose ears are stopped up.]
See,
themex,
that's where you and I agree,
and you and Mike DISagree.
Mike believes the Bible is NOT God's Word.
Mike believes the PFAL COLLATERALS are God's Word.
Mike believes that Jesus is very interested in PFAL.
Mike believes Jesus appointed VPW the spokesman for Jesus.
Mike believes Jesus told him this.
Mike has said that when Jesus Christ returns,
he will be holding a copy of the Orange PFAL Book
AND be TEACHING YOU from it.
themex,
you and Mike DISagree on those things.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bliss
Holy cow Mike, I think there is NO pedestal HIGH ENOUGH for Jesus Christ! And, I am no trinitarian.
That is ONE BIG PROBLEM with going "back to PFAL", not enough ESTEEM for our Lord and Savior.
Where was he all the years we uttered words from the "PFAL" days, huh? I think he was only at the end of our prayers!
Shame , shame
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Since leaving TWI many years ago I have learned many things. The main thing being that many people know what we thought we had exclusive rights to.
I am glad that when I speak to Christians they realize that I have a pretty good working knowledge of the Word. I can credit the class for helping me see that the Bible can be treated as an accurate book and not just a bunch of fairy tales. (Hey Craig - I used the words "bible" and "fairy" in the same sentence and I'm still here! oh sorry i'm back now.)
The Roman Catholic Church kept the Bible in latin because they felt that the common man couldn't handle it. Suppose they too were trying to protect their congregation from intolerable error?
No matter how many reasons you concoct it was wrong.
Controlling information is still control. When you are trying to empower people with the truth you give them enough information to help them learn how to see the truth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
dooj, once and for all, pfal and everything that happened after it, hurt me way more than i had already been hurt. what can i say ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Just for the record, since I saw it in WW's post, whom I do read and whom I do respect, I have Mike and Allan set to be ignored, have recently added OM and am currently considering adding yet one more poster to that setting. I happen to LOVE having that option! I can't recommend it highly enough!
Why should it matter to me if someone is ignoring me? I choose to correspond with those who want to correspond with me. I certainly don't waste my time worrying about or hanging around people who don't like me - it just frustrates both of us.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Mike,
I AM IGNORING YOU.
Clear enough?
As for information circuits getting dammed up in a mountain of mixed metaphors...
I seem to recall you saying that you will not listen to any information that goes against your thesis, and that your response to any real challenge is to dodge.
You're a hypocrite, Mike.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I am very sorry to hear that, Excathedra. I wasn't my experience. I am no fan of TWI. I just can't throw it all out since it didn't totally wreck my like.
Slipping off topic - I never had to deal with the sexual abuse - I had a friend that did - but I had no idea that it was rampant.
I had more problems in that category after leaving - with ex-way-clergy. THEN I understood why John S had to write a paper about adultery (seemed like it didn't really need saying - but I didn't know that anyone was condoning it)
In the 10 years I was "in" overall things weren't that bad for me. Now that I read posts by others I know more than I can bear about all the abuses that went on in God's name. - sort of like a grand crusade.
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.