My my..so then even the Kenneth Copelands and Joyce Meyers and that dude that looks like a fat black version of Butterbean are 'plagiarists' seeing as most of their stuff comes from Billy Braham, Oral Roberts etc.. ??!! And they don't often refer to their 'sources' either !
I don't know about the others, but Kopeland and Hagin were raging plagiarists. Thanks for asking.
Sorry but as far as I'm concerned you are still running for cover. I find in you a form of (perhaps willful) ignorance which characterizes the person who is so happy to find an oasis that he mistakes it for paradise never realizing that he can move on and find a better station in life. You are stuck in the infatuation phase that most of us had when we first encountered TWI. You are like the teenager who never got over the crush. Or perhaps you have made such a strong investment in TWI, PFAL or perhaps VPW that you feel that it would be dishonorable to back down from your tenacious support of concepts and ideas that most have found to be useful but only to maintain that romantic attachment to their youthful days with TWI. But I've also considered , more recently, that you simply enjoy the attention (albeit negative) you receive from championing the VPW legacy. The anti-hero. You enjoy the infamy that comes with being a slavish supporter of the VPW legacy. At least in Gspot you have a level of attention that I suspect you might be missing in real time. I also suspect that instead of addressing the earlier statements I've made you will respond to what I just said
in mock indignance, simply to misdirect and to avoid having to discuss VPW's total lack of academic credibilty, his intellectual theft as well as the complete lack of practicality in the so called Law Of Believing that even VPW could not operate to spare himself from a disease for which other believers where denigrated for having. Some "teacher" you have there.
My my..so then even the Kenneth Copelands and Joyce Meyers and that dude that looks like a fat black version of Butterbean are 'plagiarists' seeing as most of their stuff comes from Billy Braham, Oral Roberts etc.. ??!! And they don't often refer to their 'sources' either !
Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosiing...{your answer goes here}
I've done it, I'm sure everyone has. Sometimes we have to make the best of a situation as it is.
But choosing between one preacher-strutter and another - I don't have to do that.
I've been young and am gettin' pret' near old but never have I seen a preacher who, when they get hot for the Lord, didn't do one HECK of a strut across their stage. They get that little stompin' poundin' thing going, do the "don't tell ME! GLORY!" rhetoric. VPW had his "that's RIGHT baby!"-nose-wiping thing. They all do it. I think it comes with the Preacher License to Preach, 3 e-z lessons in Biblical Body Language.
But I digress.
As to the topic of Mastering, yes, you do. No, don't argue. You do. You've all probably thrown your PFAL materials away. Good for you then that I have a supply of rewritten books available that contain what the original books really meant, at no cost and absolutely free to the first 300 souls who send me a request via emal to whyamisonice@masteringmadeeasy.com. Just include the names of 100 of your closest friends that you think would be interested in my latest book "Making Money Mastering Techniques and Secrets" and it will be sent right away. Include 59.95 for handling and this once in a lifetime offer can be yours, for free. Start mastering today!
BUT WAIT!!!! That's not all....!!!
Ever feel like nobody's listening to you, no matter how many times you say the same thing over and over again. Feel unappreciated? Well, don't wait one more minute! Included with the first 100 orders will be socks' book "Feel-Felt-Found...Selling Secrets of the Pharoahs"....!!! Don't delay - you'll be glad you didn't. The delay thing!!!
I'm going to say "maybe" here cause I don't know, and on two points.
Maybe oldiesman didn't respond much (as you charge) to the silly plagiarism charges because I have posted so many reams refuting them in the past three years. Gads! I could write a book on just that. Maybe I will, just by culling out all my posts on it.
I don't see you dealing with the many points I made. You just do as you accuse and remain silent like many others.
I'll repeat one major point. God is the real owner of truths regarding His advice and plans. The highest court on copyrights is His court AND He is the REAL owner. He owns Bullinger's right-on stuff, and Styles', and Kenyon's, and on, and on.
We don't even own OURSELVES because we were "bought with a price."
I think you're desperate to justify your abandoning God's truths. Many are.
In my opinion it is a waste of time to wade through Wierwille's works looking for "the baby" or "fish", and throwing out the bones with the bathwater. It is established, in my eyes anyway, that the man was a liar, and a thief and a con artist. Why would I want to use his works as a source for truth?
I admit, the winds that blow us all away from PFAL are strong. It's only those grads who daily yearn for, and daily seek the spiritual guidance from the Father of the BOSS Jesus Christ who can muster the motivation to come back to PFAL and check again, leaving no stone unturned.
Only the truly spiritually minded, spiritual as I just defined it, are able to see through the "evidence" that God was incapable of getting His revelations through to a sinful man.
Only the truly spiritually minded can see that the charges against Dr hold for all of us, IN THE LEAST COMMON DENOMINATOR (not the specific details) that we all have committed the greatest sin FREQUENTLY of not loving this God first.
Only the truly spiritually minded can see that the "court" here is kangaroo.
Only those who received genuine and strong and abundant spiritual help from PFAL are able to withstand the winds.
Maybe oldiesman didn't respond much (as you charge) to the silly plagiarism charges because I have posted so many reams refuting them in the past three years.
You refuted them???
ROFLMAO!!!!
Oh Gawd, Smikeol! ... Stop it!! ... You are TOO much!!! :lol:
((Wiping tears of laughter away)) *Whew* ... Well, I got my Laugh for the Week.
I'm going to say "maybe" here cause I don't know, and on two points.
Maybe oldiesman didn't respond much (as you charge) to the silly plagiarism charges because I have posted so many reams refuting them in the past three years. Gads! I could write a book on just that. Maybe I will, just by culling out all my posts on it.
[so far, all your posting on plagiarism "refuted" was the notion
that you understand what plagiarism IS and is NOT.]
I don't see you dealing with the many points I made. You just do as you accuse and remain silent like many others.
[Your inability to see all your points addressed does not reflect on those who
addressed them. It's you who can't comprehend the responses.]
I'll repeat one major point. God is the real owner of truths regarding His advice and plans. The highest court on copyrights is His court AND He is the REAL owner. He owns Bullinger's right-on stuff, and Styles', and Kenyon's, and on, and on.
We don't even own OURSELVES because we were "bought with a price."
I think you're desperate to justify your abandoning God's truths. Many are.
[Doojable, since you missed the earlier discussions,
this is the fallacy known as "moving the goalposts".
See,
you and I want the truth, so when evidence shows we are wrong,
we change our minds.
Mike's approach is that he wants his doctrine,
so when evidence shows he is wrong,
he retains his doctrine and tries to change or discredit the evidence.
When the plagiarism first showed up, Mike denied it outright.
When it was proved he was wrong, he wasted no time switching
to saying that everybody else plagiarizes, so it's ok.
When it was proved he was wrong again, he wasted no time
switching to saying that God told vpw to plagiarize, so it's ok.
Yes, that means the God who said
"subject yourselves to every ordinance of man for man's sake"
now advocated breaking those ordinances.
Lately, you've seen him starting a new tack.
He's manufacturing personality defects in the REAL writers
to try to say it would have been wrong to obey the law
and footnote properly.
Since he's fond of manufacturing his points, this is hardly
innovative. He's claimed Bullinger didn't write his own
books-but was proven wrong, and has claimed that
Leonard approved of vpw stealing his work, and so on.
Of course, he's completely skipping over how the first
pfal class was 100% taken from Leonard's class when he
says that Leonard's material had errors.
Of course, he can't actually NAME an error- he's imagining
there might have been one.
Truth is irrelevant to Mike.
Mike only cares that reality be rewritten so that vpw
was right in what he did,
no matter how many lies Mike needs to get there.
Mike also rewrites the exchanges he has here in his mind.
After having been systematically refuted on EVERY point,
from the least to the greatest,
he has turned around and said that he has been getting
the better of all of us in discussion and besting us all.
It would be funny if this wasn't what he really thought.
Oh-
and he thinks that it is NOT idolatry,
but perfectly healthy and normal,
that he has referred to vpw-and thinks of vpw-
as follows:
-He was born with an overabundance of brains and brawn
devil: People versus Wierwille, your honor; plagiarism!
God: Bail?
Jesus Christ: Motion to dismiss, your honor; This man is a born again believer. These charges have nothing to do with righteousness.
God: Motion granted. Case dismissed!
I guess next then to be addressed will be the charges of assault, fornication, adultery, rape, cruelty, drunkeness......Will he be held accountable for being personally responsible for destroying OTHER believers lives? Will be accountable for each life his doctrine has destroyed?
I suppose that his label as a believer buys him a free pass here as well?
Let us hope that is not how justice or God will work, otherwise there will be no justice.
Isaiah 55:7-9 - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Rascal you don't think that God's justice is different than man's justice? What are you gonna do if God's justice isn't as good as yours? You gonna relentlessly slander Him too?
quote: And you wonder why some call themselves atheists.
Um John, I didn`t see that the wicked forsook his way, OR the unrightious his thoughts, OR him return upon the Lord. He gave every indication of being the same wicked sob right up to the very end....Guess if all accounts are true.....he might miss out on some o that mercy when he is held accountable for his *shortcomings*
I guess if there is no justice, then I will be sorely dissapointed....
It just doesn`t seem right that a person can deliberatly hurt so many for decades and then at the last miniute declare that he gets a *free passs* because he has labled himself a believer.
His actions brand him as a man of the flesh and galations declares that he will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. That makes a little more sense.
And there are folks (more and more I might add) who have gotten sick and tired of your particular rendition of 'His ways are higher than our ways' method (read: copout), and manipulating bible verses to back it up, of justifying and sanctifying what would be otherwise regarded as abusive behavior towards people, be it in the TWI context, or in wider religious contexts in general.
And we don't have to be God, or any other form of 'higher and spiritual entity' in order to see this scam for what it is. ..... So *you* get over it.
There's no way I have the time to refute all the silly and inaccurate things you say about my position, but when it enters the total lie category I think I should sometimes speak up.
You wrote: "When the plagiarism first showed up, Mike denied it outright. When it was proved he was wrong, he wasted no time switching..."
This is a downright lie. First of all, you seem to think the universe revolves around you and your post ministry expositions here at GSC and prior, both in time and in space.
What the heck do you even MEAN by "first showed up" ??? That's dumb. You assume I wasn't aware of it until GSC "first" exposed it.
When these supposed "plagiarism" charges first showed up in MY universe was 1972, and it shook me a tiny bit, until I thought it through. It was when I first bought and thumbed through "How to Enjoy the Bible" that I bought in the Way Bookstore. I dealt with it privately and slowly saw through my apprehensions.
Some more came up a few years later in how a "tripped out" friend brought that book up and then Kenyon. I dealt with it again, and much the same way I do now.
Then the next time it came up was 1988, when Ralph D came to town with his whistle blowing. I was startled that no one at that meeting had dealt with it before, and that everyone was all in a tizzy. Other things brought up there at that meeting bothered me, but not the plagiarism thing. It bothered me that no one thought it through very deeply, though. It looked like they were disparately grabbing at straws, looking of something more to get worked up about.
My reaction to it being brought up at GSC was almost identical, with the added consternation that people had so many more years to ponder it THOROUGHLY, yet they remained insular and ignorant of many other ways to look at it. Willingly ignoring information is not a good sign of a healthy mind, except when someone has arrived at the absolute total God approved truth on a matter.
WW, you got your facts wrong, again. Not only that, but your severe abbreviation of my position on this and many other topics is a another huge lie in another category. I have posted MUCH more on this than you indicate.
I wish I did have the time to go through all your rubbish as you pretend to dissect my posts with surgical precision. You're a quack doctor with an agenda and very sloppy with the facts.
I challenge you to even produce the posting of mine from which you drew your false conclusion on this plagiarism matter and my switching positions as if new information was presented to me. If I wrote it ambiguously I'll admit it and correct it. This post should go a long way in that anyway.
Many of my posts are missing from this board due to pruning that had to be done in the old software situation. If you, or anyone else wants a full canon of my posting, I can make it available.
This may be a good time to bring up the idea of possibly restoring the pruned threads someday.
There's no way I have the time to refute all the silly and inaccurate things you say about my position,
[Especially since most of it's already documented, so trying to
defend against it just makes Mike look sadder....]
but when it enters the total lie category I think I should sometimes speak up.
[Well, that's why I speak up when you make up
imaginary personal problems on behalf of men you know nothing about,
like Bullinger, Leonard, etc.]
You wrote: "When the plagiarism first showed up, Mike denied it outright. When it was proved he was wrong, he wasted no time switching..."
This is a downright lie.
[Mike started from the position that there WAS no plagiarism.
Rather than admit there WAS plagiarism,
he attempted to redefine plagiarism,
and STILL does to this day.
Mike's definition is not the accepted one anywhere except between
Mike's ears (and presumably, for adherents to Mikean pfal.]
First of all, you seem to think the universe revolves around you and your post ministry expositions here at GSC and prior, both in time and in space.
[Gee, that explains why it takes me a long time to finish things here-
since I spend most of my time OFF GSC...]
What the heck do you even MEAN by "first showed up" ???
[From your initial posting arrival and being confronted with
the plagiarism and deception of 'the cornfield wizard'.
That's the practical definition.
You could have been lurking long before.
Of course, I care not who lurks... ]
That's dumb. You assume I wasn't aware of it until GSC "first" exposed it.
[Not at all.
I didn't say you didn't KNOW about the plagiarism-
I said you DENIED it.
Peter denied knowing Jesus during the passion.
As usual, you're reading messages into something that aren't there.
Plus, it was not exposed "first" by GSC,
but at WAYDALE.
As usual, you're rewriting history. ]
When these supposed "plagiarism" charges first showed up in MY universe was 1972, and it shook me a tiny bit, until I thought it through. It was when I first bought and thumbed through "How to Enjoy the Bible" that I bought in the Way Bookstore. I dealt with it privately and slowly saw through my apprehensions.
[if you denied it then,
your initial response was wrong.]
Some more came up a few years later in how a "tripped out" friend brought that book up and then Kenyon. I dealt with it again, and much the same way I do now.
[ignoring it until addressed,
then trying to rationalize it....that's much the way you do now...]
Then the next time it came up was 1988, when Ralph D came to town with his whistle blowing. I was startled that no one at that meeting had dealt with it before, and that everyone was all in a tizzy. Other things brought up there at that meeting bothered me, but not the plagiarism thing. It bothered me that no one thought it through very deeply, though. It looked like they were disparately grabbing at straws, looking of something more to get worked up about.
[Or it upset them where your conscience was already asleep.
Something like that.]
My reaction to it being brought up at GSC was almost identical, with the added consternation that people had so many more years to ponder it THOROUGHLY, yet they remained insular and ignorant of many other ways to look at it. Willingly ignoring information is not a good sign of a healthy mind, except when someone has arrived at the absolute total God approved truth on a matter.
[Almost a perfect sentence-
until you said God says it's healthy to willfully ignore information.]
WW, you got your facts wrong, again.
[Mike's rewritten facts, again.]
Not only that, but your severe abbreviation of my position on this and many other topics is a another huge lie in another category.
[HAHAHA!
Ok, I'll give dates and times and exact quotes AGAIN!
One would think you'd prefer I didn't,
but you went there....]
I have posted MUCH more on this than you indicate.
[Repetition of the SAME sentence in 57 varieties is hardly "more" on the
subject in any SUBSTANTIAL way.
All the ways you called people who say there ARE no "hidden messages"
where you see them are really ONE statement,
and it lacked merit the FIRST time. ] [
I wish I did have the time to go through all your rubbish as you pretend to dissect my posts with surgical precision. You're a quack doctor with an agenda and very sloppy with the facts.
[You're a little biased,
seeing as YOU'RE the one I filleted like a fish last time.
When I get bored, I'll start posted some evidence.
Until then, the others can just scroll back to responses to
your usual "sermons".]
I challenge you to even produce the posting of mine from which you drew your false conclusion on this plagiarism matter
[i wasn't paying much attention to you on this back in 2003,
and I don't care enough to dig for it at the moment.
And name-calling doesn't add merit to your posts.
Feeling insecure, Mike? ]
and my switching positions as if new information was presented to me.
[No, you "moved the goalposts" because you were unable
to refute the plagiarism, so drawing attention to it weakened your
doctrine that it was "God-given",
which is what the preface and introductions to the White and
Orange Books suggest.
(They say outright that they were produced by vpw
working ONLY his Bible and THROWING OUT all other books.)]
If I wrote it ambiguously I'll admit it and correct it. This post should go a long way in that anyway.
[You haven't done that the past few YEARS,
so I've no confidence you'll suddenly START now.]
Many of my posts are missing from this board due to pruning that had to be done in the old software situation. If you, or anyone else wants a full canon of my posting, I can make it available.
[i've seen you edit the history of twi, vpw, and posts on the GSC
before. I'd trust a total stranger's synopsis before trusting yours.
You've a proven track-record of rewriting events. ]
This may be a good time to bring up the idea of possibly restoring the pruned threads someday.
[Fine.
Discuss with the management how much you will pay for the terabytes of memory
your endless treatises take up to store and provide access to.
Posting at GSC is STILL not a Constitutional right.
And, in case anyone recognizes my comments,
they've been made before, many times,
by myself AND others.
Naturally, Mike's continually "new" to this.
Mike's exposure to information he dislikes is much
like some tender young maidens whose 'cherished
virtue' returns after they misplace it, no matter
how frequently.
Oh, and Mike,
if GSC posting was the be-all and end-all of things
I'll document a few things I've said that Mike has said
previously.
Mike 2/2/04, 12:17am.
"When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book
in his hand and teaching you from it."
("So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL
book in his hand.")
Mike, 2/3/04, 7:53pm.
"Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once."
Mike 2/3/04, 5:22am
"Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman.
Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.
He told me so."
Thank you all and have a nice evening!
I challenge you to even produce the posting of mine
from which you drew your false conclusion on this plagiarism matter and my switching positions as if new information was presented to me. If I wrote it ambiguously I'll admit it and correct it. This post should go a long way in that anyway.
Many of my posts are missing from this board
due to pruning that had to be done in the old software situation. If you, or anyone else wants a full canon of my posting, I can make it available.
This may be a good time to bring up the idea of possibly restoring the pruned threads someday.
"My oldest posts are missing!
Anyway, I never said it-produce my oldest posts where I said that!
Why don't you want readers to see the context of my remarks?
Some of the quotes you attribute to me are unfindable, gone from this board. The largest thread in GSC history was "Masters of the Word..." and it's gone. Didn't you save the context of those quotes of mine you saved?
Or did you find them on this present board with the search function?
If so, then why withhold the URL or the thread name?
Because you don't want anyone to see the context?
You don't provide the context because you want it out of sight.
If you didn't save it along with the quotes it's because you didn't regard the context as important.
You could ask around if there are backup copies made of the pruned threads if you thought the context was important enough to retrieve, right? For instance, you could ask me for it, in a PM.
***
Back to THIS thread.
You diverted attention from my post on THIS thread.
Does that mean I get to use a significant fraction of a terra byte to re-post my protest?
You STILL can't produce me doing a turnabout on plagiarism as you charged on THIS thread, right?
Maybe you confused me with someone else?
***
You wrote:
"Mike 2/3/04, 5:22am
'Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman.
Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.
He told me so.'"
Yes. This is correct. It only needs a tiny bit of context.
He told me so on page 9 of JCNG, at the end of its Introduction, in the italic print.
This is the best I can remember it, without taking the time to look it up. I only have so much time to put into these wild goose chases of yours.
For those who are separated from their books here is the whole passage (WITH CONTEXT) where Dr says he was appointed a spokesman by Jesus Christ.
JCNG p. 8,9
"I do believe the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of man because he had a human for a mother; and he is the Son of God because of his created conception by God. So on the basis of the parentage of God alone, besides his choosing to live a perfect life, Jesus Christ is by no means a run-of-the-mill, unmarked human being. Thus, to say that I do not elevate and respect the position of the Lord Jesus Christ simply because I do not believe the evidence designates Jesus Christ as God is to speak the judgment of a fool, for to the very depth of my being I love him with all my heart, soul, mind and strength.
It is he who sought me out from darkness.
It is he who gave me access to God; even now he is my mediator.
It is he who saved me when I was dead in trespasses and sin.
It is he who gave me the new birth of God’s eternal life–which is Christ in me, the hope of glory.
It is he who gave me remission of sins and continues to give forgiveness of sins.
It is he who filled me to capacity by God’s presence in Christ in all the fullness of God’s gift of holy spirit.
It is he who was made unto me my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
It is he who called me and set me in the heavenlies.
It is he who gave me his joy, peace and love.
It is he who appointed me as a spokesman of God’s accurate Word; may I be found faithful in that calling.
It is he who is all in all to me that I might give my all for him.
Why don't you want readers to see the context of my remarks?
[2 out of 3 were the posts IN THEIR ENTIRETY.
There was no additional "post" to provide context.
One had a context of a question from another-I provided the question.]
Some of the quotes you attribute to me are unfindable, gone from this board.
[i just did a search. I quoted you three times. All three of them are still here.
I included the dates and times to make them easy to confirm.
I included your OWN emphases. The only change is once where you posted
"Jesus Chris" and I figured you meant "Jesus Christ", so I just fixed the
obvious typo.
So, all three quoted I quoted directly are FINDABLE,
CURRENTLY on this board.
You didn't see them, so you concluded they didn't exist, and that
more adept searchers than you could not find them.
As usual. ]
The largest thread in GSC history was "Masters of the Word..." and it's gone. Didn't you save the context of those quotes of mine you saved?
[No need to-I just go read the original posts.]
Or did you find them on this present board with the search function?
[ Just reconfirmed they're searchable....]
If so, then why withhold the URL or the thread name?
[ The URL changes when changes are made to the GSC.
The dates stayed the same, however-which is why I provided them. ]
Because you don't want anyone to see the context?
[ No, because the URL changed once already,
so I gave the information someone can use to read them if he
is COMPETENT with the search function. ]
You don't provide the context because you want it out of sight.
[ Your attempts to deflect attention from your silly comments
by pretending they don't exist or can't be found will not work.
Are you really unable to find them on your own?
I will take pity on your lack of skill if it's really necessary.
Insulting someone with an ability you lack, however
(like using the search function properly) is not the
appropriate response to envying their skills.
If I didn't want them found, the dates and times would have
been silly to include. ]
If you didn't save it along with the quotes it's because you didn't regard the context as important.
[ Or, as I've said before and you keep forgetting
(since we've discussed it before),
those were one-sentence posts,
so there WAS no context.
In one case, you were just running your usual commercial,
so in that case, I DIDN'T, but since I saved the date/time,
one can go back and read it "in the original". ]
You could ask around if there are backup copies made of the pruned threads if you thought the context was important enough to retrieve, right? For instance, you could ask me for it, in a PM.
[ Or I could look it up like I just did.
Why in the world would I need an archival copy of the Mikean Manifesto?
It's the same as it's always been!
Read one thread of it, and you've read it all,
and a few pages of it's the same as HUNDREDS of pages of it.
If I had a book where all the chapters are variations of each other,
I wouldn't bother reading it-the first chapter said it all already...
Or, are you still under the impression that you're providing
CONTENT for your much-speaking?
I see no reason to ever ask you for content, since you've
got nothing that thousands of Christians can't offer BETTER
in both CONTENT and DELIVERY.
I can e-mail dozens of Christians and get better anytime I want.
I can retrieve data off websites and messageboards better.
Ask you for dead threads?
Keep dreaming. ]
***
Back to THIS thread.
You diverted attention from my post on THIS thread.
[No, just recapped your previous posts in part.
I summed up dozens of pages in a few paragraphs, too.
You seem unwilling or unable to do so, so I figured the
new people should have it from someone who could
do it... ]
Does that mean I get to use a significant fraction of a terra byte to re-post my protest?
[ You will no matter what I say... ]
You STILL can't produce me doing a turnabout on plagiarism as you charged on THIS thread, right?
[ As you pointed out, the 2003 thread with the equivalent of several thousand
printed pages is probably in data heaven. If you'd paid Paw for the forced data
storage, I'm sure he would have kept it. After all, he does this out-of-pocket
and you're exploiting his largesse to "evangelize" and finance your crusade... ]
Maybe you confused me with someone else?
[ [Not enough people who believe pfal is a new Bible to confuse you with, Mike... ]
***
You wrote:
"Mike 2/3/04, 5:22am
'Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman.
Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.
He told me so.'"
[ Technically, YOU WROTE it and I QUOTED it.]
Yes. This is correct. It only needs a tiny bit of context.
[Here comes a diversion that skips Jesus Christ "telling you he is VERY
interested in PFAL, AND JC himself saying he did this appointing.
Watch closely, folks. ]
He told me so on page 9 of JCNG, at the end of its Introduction, in the italic print.
[ JESUS told you so in the book?]
This is the best I can remember it, without taking the time to look it up. I only have so much time to put into these wild goose chases of yours.
[ Mike says JESUS tells him he's VERY interested in PFAL.
Mike says he's seen Jesus with the Orange Book in his hand,
reading from it, MANY TIMES.
Mike's attempts to defend this are "MY FAULT",
and documenting his claim is a "wild goose chase".... ]
For those who are separated from their books here is the whole passage (WITH CONTEXT) where Dr says he was appointed a spokesman by Jesus Christ.
[ The claim was JESUS CHRIST told YOU-MIKE-that he-JESUS CHRIST-
appointed vpw-"Dr"-as Jesus Christ's spokesman,
and that he-JESUS CHRIST-
was very interested in PFAL.
Now, confronted with this statement,
Mike is completely SWITCHING from that,
to some claim vpw made in a book.
vpw never wrote that Mike saw Jesus Christ make claims,
so we know this is another time Mike is switching AWAY
from what he has said but cannot defend. ]
JCNG p. 8,9
"I do believe the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of man because he had a human for a mother; and he is the Son of God because of his created conception by God. So on the basis of the parentage of God alone, besides his choosing to live a perfect life, Jesus Christ is by no means a run-of-the-mill, unmarked human being. Thus, to say that I do not elevate and respect the position of the Lord Jesus Christ simply because I do not believe the evidence designates Jesus Christ as God is to speak the judgment of a fool, for to the very depth of my being I love him with all my heart, soul, mind and strength.
It is he who sought me out from darkness.
It is he who gave me access to God; even now he is my mediator.
It is he who saved me when I was dead in trespasses and sin.
It is he who gave me the new birth of God’s eternal life–which is Christ in me, the hope of glory.
It is he who gave me remission of sins and continues to give forgiveness of sins.
It is he who filled me to capacity by God’s presence in Christ in all the fullness of God’s gift of holy spirit.
It is he who was made unto me my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
It is he who called me and set me in the heavenlies.
It is he who gave me his joy, peace and love.
It is he who appointed me as a spokesman of God’s accurate Word; may I be found faithful in that calling.
It is he who is all in all to me that I might give my all for him.
It is he who is God’s only begotten Son."
[ So, then,
your only justification for saying that Jesus Christ TOLD YOU that
he appointed vpw his spokesman and is VERY interested in pfal
is one line vpw himself wrote in one book?
This may surprise you, Mike,
but one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.... ]
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oldiesman
Diazbro
Have a great weekend.
And
Have one on me:
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Raf
I don't know about the others, but Kopeland and Hagin were raging plagiarists. Thanks for asking.
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diazbro
Sorry but as far as I'm concerned you are still running for cover. I find in you a form of (perhaps willful) ignorance which characterizes the person who is so happy to find an oasis that he mistakes it for paradise never realizing that he can move on and find a better station in life. You are stuck in the infatuation phase that most of us had when we first encountered TWI. You are like the teenager who never got over the crush. Or perhaps you have made such a strong investment in TWI, PFAL or perhaps VPW that you feel that it would be dishonorable to back down from your tenacious support of concepts and ideas that most have found to be useful but only to maintain that romantic attachment to their youthful days with TWI. But I've also considered , more recently, that you simply enjoy the attention (albeit negative) you receive from championing the VPW legacy. The anti-hero. You enjoy the infamy that comes with being a slavish supporter of the VPW legacy. At least in Gspot you have a level of attention that I suspect you might be missing in real time. I also suspect that instead of addressing the earlier statements I've made you will respond to what I just said
in mock indignance, simply to misdirect and to avoid having to discuss VPW's total lack of academic credibilty, his intellectual theft as well as the complete lack of practicality in the so called Law Of Believing that even VPW could not operate to spare himself from a disease for which other believers where denigrated for having. Some "teacher" you have there.
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socks
Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosiing...{your answer goes here}
I've done it, I'm sure everyone has. Sometimes we have to make the best of a situation as it is.
But choosing between one preacher-strutter and another - I don't have to do that.
I've been young and am gettin' pret' near old but never have I seen a preacher who, when they get hot for the Lord, didn't do one HECK of a strut across their stage. They get that little stompin' poundin' thing going, do the "don't tell ME! GLORY!" rhetoric. VPW had his "that's RIGHT baby!"-nose-wiping thing. They all do it. I think it comes with the Preacher License to Preach, 3 e-z lessons in Biblical Body Language.
But I digress.
As to the topic of Mastering, yes, you do. No, don't argue. You do. You've all probably thrown your PFAL materials away. Good for you then that I have a supply of rewritten books available that contain what the original books really meant, at no cost and absolutely free to the first 300 souls who send me a request via emal to whyamisonice@masteringmadeeasy.com. Just include the names of 100 of your closest friends that you think would be interested in my latest book "Making Money Mastering Techniques and Secrets" and it will be sent right away. Include 59.95 for handling and this once in a lifetime offer can be yours, for free. Start mastering today!
BUT WAIT!!!! That's not all....!!!
Ever feel like nobody's listening to you, no matter how many times you say the same thing over and over again. Feel unappreciated? Well, don't wait one more minute! Included with the first 100 orders will be socks' book "Feel-Felt-Found...Selling Secrets of the Pharoahs"....!!! Don't delay - you'll be glad you didn't. The delay thing!!!
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Mike
diazbro,
I'm going to say "maybe" here cause I don't know, and on two points.
Maybe oldiesman didn't respond much (as you charge) to the silly plagiarism charges because I have posted so many reams refuting them in the past three years. Gads! I could write a book on just that. Maybe I will, just by culling out all my posts on it.
I don't see you dealing with the many points I made. You just do as you accuse and remain silent like many others.
I'll repeat one major point. God is the real owner of truths regarding His advice and plans. The highest court on copyrights is His court AND He is the REAL owner. He owns Bullinger's right-on stuff, and Styles', and Kenyon's, and on, and on.
We don't even own OURSELVES because we were "bought with a price."
I think you're desperate to justify your abandoning God's truths. Many are.
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Oakspear
In my opinion it is a waste of time to wade through Wierwille's works looking for "the baby" or "fish", and throwing out the bones with the bathwater. It is established, in my eyes anyway, that the man was a liar, and a thief and a con artist. Why would I want to use his works as a source for truth?
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Mike
Oakspear,
I admit, the winds that blow us all away from PFAL are strong. It's only those grads who daily yearn for, and daily seek the spiritual guidance from the Father of the BOSS Jesus Christ who can muster the motivation to come back to PFAL and check again, leaving no stone unturned.
Only the truly spiritually minded, spiritual as I just defined it, are able to see through the "evidence" that God was incapable of getting His revelations through to a sinful man.
Only the truly spiritually minded can see that the charges against Dr hold for all of us, IN THE LEAST COMMON DENOMINATOR (not the specific details) that we all have committed the greatest sin FREQUENTLY of not loving this God first.
Only the truly spiritually minded can see that the "court" here is kangaroo.
Only those who received genuine and strong and abundant spiritual help from PFAL are able to withstand the winds.
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GarthP2000
You refuted them???
ROFLMAO!!!!
Oh Gawd, Smikeol! ... Stop it!! ... You are TOO much!!! :lol:
((Wiping tears of laughter away)) *Whew* ... Well, I got my Laugh for the Week.
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johniam
Angel: All rise!
God: Next case.
devil: People versus Wierwille, your honor; plagiarism!
God: Bail?
Jesus Christ: Motion to dismiss, your honor; This man is a born again believer. These charges have nothing to do with righteousness.
God: Motion granted. Case dismissed!
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WordWolf
We've mentioned that before, as well.
His lack of character reflects on his lack of integrity,
which shows he's unfit for the office of leader.
Right.And so the "law of believing", and the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king"
parts of pfal, for example, should be rejected because they're error.
For those of you who think that pfal is a new Bible,
according to its OWN standard,
if it is imperfect in ANY place, the whole Bible falls to pieces.
Naming just those 2 examples, pfal falls to pieces as a Bible.
Wrong.
His sins demonstrate he was unworthy to be counted a minister of God.
They don't, in and of themselves, address what he taught.
Of course, we've said this lots of times,
so by now,
this is either you failing to read what is written,
or you failing to retain what is written.
You have a right to your opinion.
We've SHOWN it IS relevant, however.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in boldface and brackets again.]
[Doojable, since you missed the earlier discussions,
this is the fallacy known as "moving the goalposts".
See,
you and I want the truth, so when evidence shows we are wrong,
we change our minds.
Mike's approach is that he wants his doctrine,
so when evidence shows he is wrong,
he retains his doctrine and tries to change or discredit the evidence.
When the plagiarism first showed up, Mike denied it outright.
When it was proved he was wrong, he wasted no time switching
to saying that everybody else plagiarizes, so it's ok.
When it was proved he was wrong again, he wasted no time
switching to saying that God told vpw to plagiarize, so it's ok.
Yes, that means the God who said
"subject yourselves to every ordinance of man for man's sake"
now advocated breaking those ordinances.
Lately, you've seen him starting a new tack.
He's manufacturing personality defects in the REAL writers
to try to say it would have been wrong to obey the law
and footnote properly.
Since he's fond of manufacturing his points, this is hardly
innovative. He's claimed Bullinger didn't write his own
books-but was proven wrong, and has claimed that
Leonard approved of vpw stealing his work, and so on.
Of course, he's completely skipping over how the first
pfal class was 100% taken from Leonard's class when he
says that Leonard's material had errors.
Of course, he can't actually NAME an error- he's imagining
there might have been one.
Truth is irrelevant to Mike.
Mike only cares that reality be rewritten so that vpw
was right in what he did,
no matter how many lies Mike needs to get there.
Mike also rewrites the exchanges he has here in his mind.
After having been systematically refuted on EVERY point,
from the least to the greatest,
he has turned around and said that he has been getting
the better of all of us in discussion and besting us all.
It would be funny if this wasn't what he really thought.
Oh-
and he thinks that it is NOT idolatry,
but perfectly healthy and normal,
that he has referred to vpw-and thinks of vpw-
as follows:
-He was born with an overabundance of brains and brawn
-He was gifted, even OVERgifted
-Where he walked, the earth shook
Just thought you'd like to be kept up to speed.]
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rascal
I guess next then to be addressed will be the charges of assault, fornication, adultery, rape, cruelty, drunkeness......Will he be held accountable for being personally responsible for destroying OTHER believers lives? Will be accountable for each life his doctrine has destroyed?
I suppose that his label as a believer buys him a free pass here as well?
Let us hope that is not how justice or God will work, otherwise there will be no justice.
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GarthP2000
:o And you want us to worship this kind of critter?? :o
And you wonder why some call themselves atheists.
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johniam
Isaiah 55:7-9 - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Rascal you don't think that God's justice is different than man's justice? What are you gonna do if God's justice isn't as good as yours? You gonna relentlessly slander Him too?
quote: And you wonder why some call themselves atheists.
It's out of your hands, Garth. Get over it.
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rascal
Um John, I didn`t see that the wicked forsook his way, OR the unrightious his thoughts, OR him return upon the Lord. He gave every indication of being the same wicked sob right up to the very end....Guess if all accounts are true.....he might miss out on some o that mercy when he is held accountable for his *shortcomings*
I guess if there is no justice, then I will be sorely dissapointed....
It just doesn`t seem right that a person can deliberatly hurt so many for decades and then at the last miniute declare that he gets a *free passs* because he has labled himself a believer.
His actions brand him as a man of the flesh and galations declares that he will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. That makes a little more sense.
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GarthP2000
And there are folks (more and more I might add) who have gotten sick and tired of your particular rendition of 'His ways are higher than our ways' method (read: copout), and manipulating bible verses to back it up, of justifying and sanctifying what would be otherwise regarded as abusive behavior towards people, be it in the TWI context, or in wider religious contexts in general.
And we don't have to be God, or any other form of 'higher and spiritual entity' in order to see this scam for what it is.
..... So *you* get over it.
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Too Gray Now
Can't we all just get along? :)
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likeaneagle
are you kidding---the mud is slinggin..duck now!
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Too Gray Now
duck now...
very funny...
duck now...
very funny...
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Mike
WordWolf,
There's no way I have the time to refute all the silly and inaccurate things you say about my position, but when it enters the total lie category I think I should sometimes speak up.
You wrote: "When the plagiarism first showed up, Mike denied it outright. When it was proved he was wrong, he wasted no time switching..."
This is a downright lie. First of all, you seem to think the universe revolves around you and your post ministry expositions here at GSC and prior, both in time and in space.
What the heck do you even MEAN by "first showed up" ??? That's dumb. You assume I wasn't aware of it until GSC "first" exposed it.
When these supposed "plagiarism" charges first showed up in MY universe was 1972, and it shook me a tiny bit, until I thought it through. It was when I first bought and thumbed through "How to Enjoy the Bible" that I bought in the Way Bookstore. I dealt with it privately and slowly saw through my apprehensions.
Some more came up a few years later in how a "tripped out" friend brought that book up and then Kenyon. I dealt with it again, and much the same way I do now.
Then the next time it came up was 1988, when Ralph D came to town with his whistle blowing. I was startled that no one at that meeting had dealt with it before, and that everyone was all in a tizzy. Other things brought up there at that meeting bothered me, but not the plagiarism thing. It bothered me that no one thought it through very deeply, though. It looked like they were disparately grabbing at straws, looking of something more to get worked up about.
My reaction to it being brought up at GSC was almost identical, with the added consternation that people had so many more years to ponder it THOROUGHLY, yet they remained insular and ignorant of many other ways to look at it. Willingly ignoring information is not a good sign of a healthy mind, except when someone has arrived at the absolute total God approved truth on a matter.
WW, you got your facts wrong, again. Not only that, but your severe abbreviation of my position on this and many other topics is a another huge lie in another category. I have posted MUCH more on this than you indicate.
I wish I did have the time to go through all your rubbish as you pretend to dissect my posts with surgical precision. You're a quack doctor with an agenda and very sloppy with the facts.
I challenge you to even produce the posting of mine from which you drew your false conclusion on this plagiarism matter and my switching positions as if new information was presented to me. If I wrote it ambiguously I'll admit it and correct it. This post should go a long way in that anyway.
Many of my posts are missing from this board due to pruning that had to be done in the old software situation. If you, or anyone else wants a full canon of my posting, I can make it available.
This may be a good time to bring up the idea of possibly restoring the pruned threads someday.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in brackets and boldface again.]
[Fine.
Discuss with the management how much you will pay for the terabytes of memory
your endless treatises take up to store and provide access to.
Posting at GSC is STILL not a Constitutional right.
And, in case anyone recognizes my comments,
they've been made before, many times,
by myself AND others.
Naturally, Mike's continually "new" to this.
Mike's exposure to information he dislikes is much
like some tender young maidens whose 'cherished
virtue' returns after they misplace it, no matter
how frequently.
Oh, and Mike,
if GSC posting was the be-all and end-all of things
for me,
I'd have your posts all ready for re-use,
from 2003 on. ]
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WordWolf
Since Mike requested,
I'll document a few things I've said that Mike has said
previously.
Mike 2/2/04, 12:17am.
"When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book
in his hand and teaching you from it."
("So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL
book in his hand.")
Mike, 2/3/04, 7:53pm.
"Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once."
Mike 2/3/04, 5:22am
"Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman.
Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.
He told me so."
Thank you all and have a nice evening!
"My oldest posts are missing!
Anyway, I never said it-produce my oldest posts where I said that!
You can't? Then that's proof I never said it!"
Just in case any of you missed that one....
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Mike
WW,
Context, comtext context.
Everything has a context.
Why don't you want readers to see the context of my remarks?
Some of the quotes you attribute to me are unfindable, gone from this board. The largest thread in GSC history was "Masters of the Word..." and it's gone. Didn't you save the context of those quotes of mine you saved?
Or did you find them on this present board with the search function?
If so, then why withhold the URL or the thread name?
Because you don't want anyone to see the context?
You don't provide the context because you want it out of sight.
If you didn't save it along with the quotes it's because you didn't regard the context as important.
You could ask around if there are backup copies made of the pruned threads if you thought the context was important enough to retrieve, right? For instance, you could ask me for it, in a PM.
***
Back to THIS thread.
You diverted attention from my post on THIS thread.
Does that mean I get to use a significant fraction of a terra byte to re-post my protest?
You STILL can't produce me doing a turnabout on plagiarism as you charged on THIS thread, right?
Maybe you confused me with someone else?
***
You wrote:
"Mike 2/3/04, 5:22am
'Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman.
Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.
He told me so.'"
Yes. This is correct. It only needs a tiny bit of context.
He told me so on page 9 of JCNG, at the end of its Introduction, in the italic print.
This is the best I can remember it, without taking the time to look it up. I only have so much time to put into these wild goose chases of yours.
For those who are separated from their books here is the whole passage (WITH CONTEXT) where Dr says he was appointed a spokesman by Jesus Christ.
JCNG p. 8,9
"I do believe the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of man because he had a human for a mother; and he is the Son of God because of his created conception by God. So on the basis of the parentage of God alone, besides his choosing to live a perfect life, Jesus Christ is by no means a run-of-the-mill, unmarked human being. Thus, to say that I do not elevate and respect the position of the Lord Jesus Christ simply because I do not believe the evidence designates Jesus Christ as God is to speak the judgment of a fool, for to the very depth of my being I love him with all my heart, soul, mind and strength.
It is he who sought me out from darkness.
It is he who gave me access to God; even now he is my mediator.
It is he who saved me when I was dead in trespasses and sin.
It is he who gave me the new birth of God’s eternal life–which is Christ in me, the hope of glory.
It is he who gave me remission of sins and continues to give forgiveness of sins.
It is he who filled me to capacity by God’s presence in Christ in all the fullness of God’s gift of holy spirit.
It is he who was made unto me my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
It is he who called me and set me in the heavenlies.
It is he who gave me his joy, peace and love.
It is he who appointed me as a spokesman of God’s accurate Word; may I be found faithful in that calling.
It is he who is all in all to me that I might give my all for him.
It is he who is God’s only begotten Son."
.
.
.
.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in boldface again.]
[ So, then,
your only justification for saying that Jesus Christ TOLD YOU that
he appointed vpw his spokesman and is VERY interested in pfal
is one line vpw himself wrote in one book?
This may surprise you, Mike,
but one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.... ]
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