vpw's plagiarized sources

[WordWolf]

themex,

if I still didn't answer your question, I did not SEE your question.

If you want me to TRY to answer it, try posting it again.

Rephrase it-use different words, say it more than one way...something.

[themex]

themex,

if I still didn't answer your question, I did not SEE your question.

If you want me to TRY to answer it, try posting it again.

Rephrase it-use different words, say it more than one way...something.

:blink: What?

[Raf]

He means he didn't understand you. Try asking your question a different way.

I thought he answered you quite fully, so obviously, I didn't understand your question either.

[TheInvisibleDan]

Someone also pointed out that one of Leonard's books contains an

introduction that slightly resembles one of vpw's claims.

Expand it, add grandiose claims, and an imaginary snowstorm,

and you have the 1943 promise.

(Leonard never claimed God told him he was unique nor mentioned

the 1st century church to him.)

What was Leonard's claim?

I suppose a snowstorm, imaginary or otherwise, wouldn't have impressed too many folks

living in Canada.

Danny

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Can't you just see it?...This drunken, womanizing "preacher" sitting there copying word for word...from people he was impressed with...passing it off as his own...and then strutting around like a peacock, the "great man of gawd"...

...and how much money did I give to this grifter? <_<

[WordWolf]

What was Leonard's claim?

I suppose a snowstorm, imaginary or otherwise, wouldn't have impressed too many folks

living in Canada.

Danny

Leonard never made a claim of a "miraculous" event.

This, however, is from Leonard's foreword to his book "Gifts of the Spirit"...

"One day God spoke to me.

'If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee the revelation concerning

that which is written in My Word touching these things; the revelation my people

need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion.'

I believed God. For months I waited before His presence in solitude. During those

wonderful days, He revealed the truth to me concerning the gifts of the Spirit.

As He did, these things were proven by acting upon the knowledge thus received,

and by examining the results in light of His Word."

[Bolshevik]

Johnny-Jump-Up was plagiarized? Where does the madness end?

[Ham]

what I wonder is.. how much of that kind of *stuff* was floating around at the time? (Gifts of the spirit and all..)

Where did BG get HIS material?

just wonder..

[waysider]

what I wonder is.. how much of that kind of *stuff* was floating around at the time? (Gifts of the spirit and all..)

Where did BG get HIS material?

just wonder..

The HS field was gaining a lot of steam in the early 1900s. That's when speaking in tongues saw a revival movement of sorts.

The modern Pentecostal Christian practice of glossolalia is often said to have originated around the beginning of the twentieth century in the United States. The city of Topeka, Kansas is often cited as the center of the Pentecostal movement and the resurgence of glossolalia in the Church. Charles Fox Parham, a holiness preacher and founder of Bethel Bible College in 1900, is given credit for being the one who influenced modern Pentecostalism. During what has been called a sermon by Parham, a bold student named Agnes Ozman asked him for prayer and the laying on of hands to specifically ask God to fill her with the Holy Spirit. This was the night of New Year's Eve, 1900. She became the first of many students to experience glossolalia, coincidentally in the first hours of the twentieth century. Parham followed within the next few days, and before the end of January 1901, glossolalia was being discussed in newspapers as a sign of the second advent of Pentecost.

SOURCE

While it appears that speaking in tongues was not first received through Parham's ministry, the focus on what it meant (as the "evidence") appears to have started there, and shortly afterwards it gained momentum. Most in the Pentecostal movement would point to him as being a key person in the early days of the movement. Prior to 1906 (i.e. in 1903 - 1905), Parham held services in Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Texas, where "baptism of the holy spirit with speaking in tongues" was often present. William Seymour, the initial preacher at Azusa street, attended Parham's bible college in the winter of 1905, and went out from there to Los Angeles, bringing many of Parham's teachings with him.

Charles Parham

Edited April 12, 2010 by waysider

[Ham]

so at every step, the enigma seems to what's the word..

fold in on itself?

If what I'm seeing is correct.. no wonder leonard didn't raise hell about all of this..

it continues today..

what is it that I am looking at..

............

the vicster looked forward to the day those in governmental office would agree with him..

maybe.. ideas have life after all..

[waysider]

I wouldn't read too much depth into it.

Wierwille saw a forgotten product (call it the hula hoop, if you will.) and repackaged it for a new market.

[Ham]

I dunno. It just seems.. if there wasn't something to this, it wouldn't deceive one generation after another..

heh.. just a thought.

[waysider]

I dunno. It just seems.. if there wasn't something to this, it wouldn't deceive one generation after another..

heh.. just a thought.

Well, it's not like each generation becomes progressively smarter. If you live 80 years, you get 80 years "smart". The next generation lives 80 years and they, too, get 80 years "smart". But, collectively, the next generation to follow doesn't start out with 160 years of "smart" built in.

[Ham]

Well, it's not like each generation becomes progressively smarter. If you live 80 years, you get 80 years "smart". The next generation lives 80 years and they, too, get 80 years "smart". But, collectively, the next generation to follow doesn't start out with 160 years of "smart" built in.

Mathematics almost demands it..

I don't know if this makes much sense..

sometimes I think we are painting ourselves into a corner..

[waysider]

Mathematics almost demands it..

I don't know if this makes much sense..

sometimes I think we are painting ourselves into a corner..

With technical knowledge and advancements, I can see your point about mathematics demanding it.

This stuff, however, has much more to do with what appeals to human psyche and emotion.

Man is hardwired with a sense of curiosity that needs to make sense out of that which, otherwise, makes little or no sense. Have you ever watched any of the currently popular TV shows about paranormal activity? They try to use "science" to prove the unprovable. Why haven't they gotten "smart" enough to realize their efforts are futile? Because that hardwired sense of wonder and curiosity is not completely satisfied with reason and logic.

Edited April 13, 2010 by waysider

[Ham]

so.. they pick up little scraps, or even whole scripts, of days gone by..

now does man indeed have a genuine NEED to believe the unbelievable (or unexplainable).. I don't think so. I think people on a fundamental level remember where they came from..

some just don't like the implications..

[Bolshevik]

You two crack me up

[waysider]

I don't think man has a need to believe the unbelievable. I just think that his mind is made in such a way that it constantly tries to reconcile thoughts and concepts that are at odds with each other.

Cognitive dissonance.

[Ham]

Perhaps..

but I still believe.. man has the "trump card" to render all that nonsense.. as nonsense.

does one want to pull the card in an evangelical, *we have da answer* environment? Probably not..

on a fundamental level.. (not to be confused with fundamentalism or some such nonsense )

Its like.. one has to let go of something.. which annoying belief is it going to be..

at one point, one has to choose..

or does one.

where did that little fundamental belief come from.. have to choose one side or another.. pretty limited options..

[waysider]

Here's an example:

When faced with the reality that Wierwille actually stole the materials in PLAF (The Wonder Class), there are those who will say, "Yes, but Gawd told him what things to steal and how to arrange them in a way that they hadn't been arranged since the last time they were arranged. And, anyhow, it was all for the betterment of mankind."

You see, the concept of VP being a crook as well as a great Man-o-Gawd, simply doesn't fit well into one mind simultaneously, so the mind finds a way to make it seem to be justified

Edited April 13, 2010 by waysider

[Ham]

Hmmmm...

*stole*?

Heh..

maybe the new euphemism will be "recycled"..

[Ham]

You two crack me up

I'm glad somebody is getting some entertainment..

but really.. who says looking at the eternal has to be all that serious..

[leafytwiglet]

Here's an example:

When faced with the reality that Wierwille actually stole the materials in PLAF (The Wonder Class), there are those who will say, "Yes, but Gawd told him what things to steal and how to arrange them in a way that they hadn't been arranged since the last time they were arranged. And, anyhow, it was all for the betterment of mankind."

You see, the concept of VP being a crook as well as a great Man-o-Gawd, simply doesn't fit well into one mind simultaneously, so the mind finds a way to make it seem to be justified

HAAAAAAAAA! you two are full of Win and awesome sauce. Thanks for making me laugh!!!

[sirguessalot]

Perhaps..

but I still believe.. man has the "trump card" to render all that nonsense.. as nonsense.

does one want to pull the card in an evangelical, *we have da answer* environment? Probably not..

on a fundamental level.. (not to be confused with fundamentalism or some such nonsense )

Its like.. one has to let go of something.. which annoying belief is it going to be..

at one point, one has to choose..

or does one.

where did that little fundamental belief come from.. have to choose one side or another.. pretty limited options..

[WordWolf]

Someone asked about the actual sources of material, like Bullinger...