Freud: One thing occurs to me that nobody else has touched upon. We're not sure just how much contact he has with people from the Way. We DO know that there are people from the Way who monitor posts on GSC. We call them the WAYGB. So it is very possible that already someone from TWI may have contacted him about this thread. Just a thought.
Johniam is right. This group, The Way International, the craig ran is insidious and they watch every post on here, they keep records and files of all the posts on here and have even used them to try to shut people up. They've kicked folks out of the group, caused divorces and ruined lives of people who have been bold enough to post on here. In fact, Craig Martindale is the one who was behind it and started it when a website was started to keep people informed of the lawsuits against him for raping women.
I'm afraid your posts may get back to craig and, thereby, ruin any sort of relationship you two may have been building. :( I still wouldn't let him alone with my wife, kids or any other people (men nor women) whom I love and care about.
I have little to add. Your words certainly have a ring of truth to them and are the most interesting thing I've read in a long time. Please stick around.
I completely understand the skepticism directed towards my post. The internet is a place where anyone can claim anything. I'm not sure what I could do to establish my legitimacy and still protect my privacy and others around me. On the other hand...the fact that I posted anything on this inflamatory topic means that I do owe everyone at least some followup. I am not going to be a hit and run poster.
I want to clarify a few things. What I have posted is simply my surface impression of Craig. He appears to be a broken man, he appears timid and reticent in his manner.
Now before I knew his past I had no reason to question this...thus I have honestly felt compassion for this man
in the past. I can tell you with conplete candor that I would drive away from a discussion with him and pray that God would be with him...he seemed like a lost soul.
BUT...and this is a big but, knowing what I know now...well as I have expressed....this is a situation of cogntive dissonance.
As I mentioned in my initial post, I have an interest in cult groups and dynamics that drive the leadership of such groups. It may seem suspicious that someone with this interest and background would by chance encounter a notorious cult leader..but that is exactly what has happened.
Here in lies the rub...my experience tells me that to do the things that Craig did would clearly place him in the anti-social personality category. I do not use this term lightly and have a complete understanding of the precise clinical meaning of it. If true, then he would more than likely be beyond any "help" and as a social pathology would be someone to run from.
On the other hand....a small minority of these people do seem to develop internalized moral structures as they age. Perhaps...perhaps.
Then there is the "Christian" side of me that wants to think that maybe God brought us together to minister to him.
Oh heck...I have no idea!
In no way shape or form should anyone think that I am trying to "soften" what he did to TWI members. It is clear that that he victimized so many innocent people who were just trying to do the right thing with their lives. What I read can only be described as wickedness and evil at the highest level.
At this point...I can't see going out of my way to contact him. I will probably see him soon...but that is just created by circumstances. Frankly...at this point I am more motivated to protect myself and my family than try to dig deeper into this issue.
Peace to all of you........
F
And yes...as someone posted...Sigmund was pretty messed up :)
Freud,
I'm not a specialist in psychology, so I don't know what diagnosis Craig would have been given. Ironically Craig majored in psychology in college and that was the area he dissed the most in his teaching as a minister in TWI.
If you feel that the Lord is leading you to minister to him, then you should. I honestly hope he does get healing from his sexual addictions and the burden he probably bears from being such a fraud in his own life as a minister, a husband, and a father. His actions were a major disappointment to me as a follower in The Way, but I am thankful I am no longer involved in that organization. But we are all people here. We aren't God almighty who sees all and knows all. We don't always forgive. I forgave Craig a long time ago so that I could move on. But I don't forget what he did. I pray he does become meek and make his wrongs right before he has to face Jesus.
... In fact, Craig Martindale is the one who was behind it and started it when a website was started to keep people informed of the lawsuits against him for raping women.
...
Freud,
I feel compelled to pipe in here and say that Craig never raped any woman, as far as I know. If he did, you can be sure he'd be in jail.
The website that Belle referenced was started by the husband of a woman who at one time was an employee of TWI, and Craig approached this employee for sex, and the woman didn't say no, like some others did.
She claimed in court papers that she "couldn't say no", a statement that I do not believe, and a statement that was never proven in a court of law.
Some people falsely call what Craig did rape, but I don't believe it ... I call it sexual harassment.
Be that as it may, folks are entitled to be represented correctly, even Craig Martindale.
He consistently used the "F" word even with children present. I was on staff at the way headquarters for 5 years. When Craig was upset, we all knew about it. He used us for sound boards, only we didn't get to talk back. We also didn't have a choice as to whether we wanted to be there or not. It was a lunch when he used to yell, and he required that all staff be at lunch.
Listening to some of his rantings will show you why many of us think he is mentally unstable.
I also want to mention an article called "Why It's Not An Affair". See this link: http://www.advocateweb.org/hope/notanaffair.asp. It talks about ministers using their power and influence to coerce women in to sex. It's not just sex or a consentual affair. It's rape because there is manipulation involved. It doesn't matter if it's mental or physical manipulation.
I know if I had to stand in judgement before my peers, folks could drum up enough offenses, that I should look much more horrific than I want to believe I am. I am lucky enough that I too fell from grace and it took the clawing my way back up to realize I needed to receive immeasurable grace, compassion and forgiveness. That is when I found the same grace, compassion and forgiveness for others. At the same time I would never deny another their absolute right to any feelings they have about a person, situation or experience.
LCM hurt me personally, not just as a member of the group. I am not sure if I ever forgave him or bothered to, but I do try to look at people before life damaged the hell out of them...and see goodness. To say one does not have it is to also deny the dark side of ourselves. That can't be good.
After all, he was a man of limited experience in the world. He never held a real job, never really came into his own, didn't even pick his own wife. He was an immature jock with a gift of gab and great knack for working a crowd, but with little or no depth.
Remarkable that your description of LCM precisely reminds me of the personaility of another pastor I recently came in contact with about a year ago - with the possible exception of not picking his own wife. Must be the "typical job description" for pastors in the "fundie-type" ministries.
Agree with you too Sogwap (S.on O.f G.od W.ay of A.bundance and P.ower) ? You're still an 'innie' aren't you ??!!
I hope not....anyways, as I said before. IF LCM ever genuinely repented he would have to be under 'spiritual suspicion' and 'micromanaged' for the rest of his life !!
Greetings and welcome, Freud, from a kindred spirit. I don't often get here because I carry an extremely heavy schedule, but I got a private note to check out the thread.
Here in lies the rub...my experience tells me that to do the things that Craig did would clearly place him in the anti-social personality category. I do not use this term lightly and have a complete understanding of the precise clinical meaning of it. If true, then he would more than likely be beyond any "help" and as a social pathology would be someone to run from.
Your training serves you well. You are correct here. But there are actually a constellation of problems.
I, too, have seen this "broken man" routine personally, face to face, in a Chicago hotel suite, back in 1987 some time during his first major "difficulty" commonly known as the big split. He was then exactly as you describe him now. You should know he was definitely suicidal back then. However he quickly rallied when he got enough people helping him and encouraging him and backing him up. Unfortunately, as you might suspect, he went headlong back into the same habit patterns commonly seen with that disorder. Regretably, he went on to hurt many more people than before, and was more vicious than ever.
On the other hand....a small minority of these people do seem to develop internalized moral structures as they age. Perhaps...perhaps.
Maybe. One could only hope. I just wish I could be half as optimistic.
Then there is the "Christian" side of me that wants to think that maybe God brought us together to minister to him.
That's precisely what my spouse and I thought back in 1987. However, after enjoying a brief period of time (several years, in fact) in which it looked like he was recovering well, all hell broke loose and he ended up being twofold the "child of hell" he was to begin with. If you involve yourself and your spouse with this man, you should know that you do so to your own peril and should go in with your eyes wide open.
My advice to you, would be to revisit your original conclusion:
he would more than likely be beyond any "help" and as a social pathology would be someone to run from.
Be warned: the problems this man has is bigger than the two of you can handle alone. His humility and "timidity" masks the leviathon just under the surface of those waters.
What I read can only be described as wickedness and evil at the highest level.
Precisely.
At this point...I can't see going out of my way to contact him.
Listen to your gut.
Frankly...at this point I am more motivated to protect myself and my family than try to dig deeper into this issue.
LISTEN TO YOUR GUT
and revisit your orginal conclusion.
Consider yourself warned.
My best regards. Now I must get back to the groves of academe.
I have not been here in nearly a year. I imagine this reply will make way for many rebuttals but that's OK with me. I did not read all pages of this post but after the first two pages, I had to write. I welcome what Freud said and am glad he posted.
LCM was described by Freud as a broken man, someone who seems to be struggling, someone with a vague past, someone carrying sadness.
I recognize that man. It could have been me that he described, when I was climbing my own uphill battle when I was down from sin, burdened with guilt and seeking answers...questioning my whole life up to that point and greatly desiring DELIVERANCE. I was carrying a heavy burden that was too heavy for me to carry alone.
I would only go to God and seek God alone because I felt like I could trust no one, talk to no one and all I wanted to do was HIDE from every one. Even strangers could not be trusted. WHo would possibly understand and listen and not judge or condemn me if they REALLY knew the facts about me, if they knew all the horrible details? I was already judged and condemned by myself. I already was living in my own misery, I did not want smeones' judgements to make it worse. I just wanted to live at peace again, like I knew a long time ago...
But Hiding did not help and finally God directed me to a local relevant church [see http://www.relevantmagazine.com] that loved me up again, showing me unconditional love and concern. They encouraged me and let me be who I am, let me rise, let me shine and let God work in me and let me fulfill the calling God has had on my life since I was a little kid. It all started with a (get this one, an X Way grad) woman teaching about intimacy with God... It was a process and it took MUCH time, but Now I am FREE.
Jesus Christ said:
Matthew 11: 28 Come unto me, {COME UNTO ME, meaning himself, JESUS} all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Now I had always gone to God. I prayed to God. I acknowledged God and I read God's word. I never before EVER came to Jesus before. So I tried it out. So when the battle got intense, I began to say, "Jesus. " Sometimes thats all I could say because my guts felt like they were wrenching apart with pain and grief. Know what happened? I got peace and was able to rest more in the promises of God and got brought up higher than I ever had, ever before.
I pray that LCM will receive the same deliverance I have known.I pray that anyone who was ever hurt by any man or woman, especially sexually, will receive deliverance from the seering pain and life changing agony of affliction.
I lived through incest. I lived through sexual abuse and sexual assault. Even after all I have known, even after all I have done as retribution for the pain that was afflicted upon me, I can honestly say now that I AM FREE.
Jesus Christ's broken body was enough for all mankinds' sins for all time and I thank God that I am free becasue of what He accomplished for me. I know I have not said I am sorry to most of the people I have hurt... Sadly, I do not know their names. I do not know where they live. I do not even remember what they look like. But I asked God to forgive me in the name of Jesus Christ and it was enough.
The people who used and abused me have NEVER asked for my forgiveness. I decided to let it go...to forgive them so I would not become bitter and resentful. Free, on both sides; unforgiveness of wrongs done to me & wrongs I inflicted upon others, is a great place to be.
I have met that very remorseful , sorrowful attitude in many who where affiliated w/ THe Way and behind that HELP me personality is a very hard person ready to snap your finger off.For some Ive met its guilt by association...which the guilt that doesnt belong to them but to perpetrator.Its a conscious you dont realy want to delve into. Without the confession and even with the confession I'd be watchful. It all looks good from the outside.Guilt is hard to face,especialy the load this man must have.
Let him bring it to you.If he has a conscious left, it will surface..
God will give him a way out when he is honest and ready if he can get back.
I was only around Craig a few times, as a part of the Way Corps that was overseen by a different person. (1979-80) So I can't comment on much about his personality, except that he came off to me as a loud-mouthed jock, nothing very subtle or compassionate. But it was clear that the Corps people who he worked with directly adored him, so there must have been something that endeared him to them.
You spoke about antisocial personality. I was reading lately that one of the identifying characteristics of a sociopath (antisocial) is that they want you to pity them. Could that be where your "fallen man" impression of Craig fits in?
There has been speculation on Greasespot that he and/or V. P. Wierwille were either antisocial or narcissistic. In the case of narcissistic personality disorder, the person often battles depression, either when his facade has been revealed, or in later life, as he realizes that his attempts at creating false selves to be admired don't bring him happiness. Perhaps this is true of the antisocial as well, I don't know. Could this be what you are seeing in Craig, or is he just one big walking narcissistic wound, because he has been found out?
Finally, there is evidence that Wierwille was always disfunctional: a bully, risk-taker, heavy drinker, emotional and sexual abuser. His father was an abuser. Some say Wierwille was a nice guy one-on-one, but it doesn't sound like any of them got real personally close to him like Craig (or Howard or Chris) did.
But in Craig's case, people have come on from time to time who seem to have known Craig as an okay jock back in the day, but quite changed as he grew in power in The Way. So I think the jury is still out as to whether Craig was born personality disordered, or whether he took on some of those traits as a result of being influenced by Wierwille and a lot of power in the closed environment of "Way World."
Guys like LCM seldom if ever reach a point of contrition in their lives. The depression and sadness they experience is typically the result of having lost influence and not being in the limelight anymore. Their sadness and pain is based on their loss of stature and certainly not out of regret for having hurt anyone. Were LCM to be somehow restored to his previous position he would pick up where left off and might in fact become worse as he would see it as God's work and think "Hey if I were really that bad then God wouldn't have brought me back. Now I'll REALLY clean house".
I always think of LCM as the bully type who abused others and saw it as something that was necessary for him to maintain control over the situation. The fact that he had to resort to obscentiies, screaming, and hatred of others (homosexuals, non Way participants "corpses") shows only that his self-image was fragile enough to be threatended by any number of personal demons (in a figurative sense) and insecurities.
I am aware that LCM used to play up his jock image but he really didn't get much playing time in college so for him to be calling the shots at the TWI was catch-up time for him. Also LCM was very vain and when he started losing his hair I think he got worse - like he had to prove that he could still "score" or that he had to keep proving that he was "the prez".
The question of whether LCM is "broken" because of what he did or "broken" because of what he lost is a valid one
IF LCM is sorry for what he did, there would still be tremendous pressure from TWI to keep his mouth shut. TWI HAS HIS CHILDREN and while many of us were put in the same situation thanks to him, it can be no less painful for him as the shoe lands on the other foot. I can see why he wouldn't want to cause them any more pain, and I don't put it past the WayGB to remind him of that little bit of leverage if the subject of apologies came up.
On the other hand, Catcup {{{{nice to see you}}} has some really valid points.
Freud, thank you for posting what you have. I've often wondered how Craig is today, and I appreciate hearing from someone with firsthand knowledge.
My sadness for the people he hurt (and I know he did) doesn't diminish the pity I feel for him. But sometimes a man has to get to the knot on the very end of his rope before he'll turn to God to pull him up. I can only hope for his sake that that's the case for Craig.
I'm no big defender of LCM. I was around him for four years ('82-'86) while I was on staff at twi's headquarters in Ohio and wasn't a big fan. I found him to be hot-headed and intimidating at times and warm and endearing at other times. He could be harsh and judgmental one day and then quiet and reflective the next. But I've heard from several people, as Evan has said here, that he was a pretty nice guy before he gained so much power in twi. I've also heard he had a genuine passion for God and the Bible and was tireless in teaching and sharing.
It's a long way down from the heights of power and control LCM once attained to the place where he apparently finds himself today. Life is a humbling experience for most of us, and I imagine life's lessons are even harder to take when you have had an inflated opinion of your own abilities and importance.
I harbor no ill will for the man. If you can help him, great. You sound like a man with your head screwed on pretty straight. I'm sure you'll use your own judgment and follow your heart. Regardless of what action or inaction you decide on, thank you for coming here and sharing your observations.
Karmic, thanks for what you shared, too...great heart and honesty. Ditto to Papertrained (welcome!) and sogwap (good to see ya here, kiddo!). Great poem, too, laleo...so poignant. I love Auden.
I've seen and heard that phrase. Not much original about TWI really. To "minister to someone" outside TWI just means providing some kind of comfort or assistance, in a Christian context.
Quite an intriguing thread here. And, I say, shoot man, if the subject ever comes up, and he seems to be penitent, why shore, help him. I would if I could. I have no fear of him at all, but I would certainly endeavor to listen to God to see if he is for real. But shoot, help him? I ain't agin it...
My wife once knew him in Oklahoma back in the early seventies, and he was once a nice guy. I hope he can find peace again being just a "regular person" again...
Funny, but in my experience I've never heard anyone else outside of the Way International use that expression (though perhaps others here have).
hmmm...oh well. Entertaining posts anyways.
Danny
Some of my Protestant friends have. The context was a purely spiritual one (akin to counseling), as opposed to the TWI usage.
Freud,
I feel compelled to pipe in here and say that Craig never raped any woman, as far as I know. If he did, you can be sure he'd be in jail.
I personally know two women who state they were raped by LCM. Obviously it's not my place to disclose personally identifiable information...so you'll have to just take my word for it...
I feel compelled to pipe in here and say that Al Capone never was a gangster, as far as I know. If he was, you can be sure he'd have been jailed for that. All he ever did wrong was get in trouble with the IRS.
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Belle
Johniam is right. This group, The Way International, the craig ran is insidious and they watch every post on here, they keep records and files of all the posts on here and have even used them to try to shut people up. They've kicked folks out of the group, caused divorces and ruined lives of people who have been bold enough to post on here. In fact, Craig Martindale is the one who was behind it and started it when a website was started to keep people informed of the lawsuits against him for raping women.
I'm afraid your posts may get back to craig and, thereby, ruin any sort of relationship you two may have been building. :( I still wouldn't let him alone with my wife, kids or any other people (men nor women) whom I love and care about.
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I Love Bagpipes
Thanks Freud.
Dazed and speechless here. I just left TWI 6 months ago after 28 years in. Very mixed emotions here.
Initial response...Has he gotten help? Maybe there is some hope for the man.
Many great responses here.
Sowap51...thanks.
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Jim
Freud,
I have little to add. Your words certainly have a ring of truth to them and are the most interesting thing I've read in a long time. Please stick around.
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Nottawayfer
Freud,
I'm not a specialist in psychology, so I don't know what diagnosis Craig would have been given. Ironically Craig majored in psychology in college and that was the area he dissed the most in his teaching as a minister in TWI.
If you feel that the Lord is leading you to minister to him, then you should. I honestly hope he does get healing from his sexual addictions and the burden he probably bears from being such a fraud in his own life as a minister, a husband, and a father. His actions were a major disappointment to me as a follower in The Way, but I am thankful I am no longer involved in that organization. But we are all people here. We aren't God almighty who sees all and knows all. We don't always forgive. I forgave Craig a long time ago so that I could move on. But I don't forget what he did. I pray he does become meek and make his wrongs right before he has to face Jesus.
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oldiesman
Freud,
I feel compelled to pipe in here and say that Craig never raped any woman, as far as I know. If he did, you can be sure he'd be in jail.
The website that Belle referenced was started by the husband of a woman who at one time was an employee of TWI, and Craig approached this employee for sex, and the woman didn't say no, like some others did.
She claimed in court papers that she "couldn't say no", a statement that I do not believe, and a statement that was never proven in a court of law.
Some people falsely call what Craig did rape, but I don't believe it ... I call it sexual harassment.
Be that as it may, folks are entitled to be represented correctly, even Craig Martindale.
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Nottawayfer
Freud,
Here's a link with some clips of Craig yelling. It will give you an idea of what kind of minister he was.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/main/real.html
He consistently used the "F" word even with children present. I was on staff at the way headquarters for 5 years. When Craig was upset, we all knew about it. He used us for sound boards, only we didn't get to talk back. We also didn't have a choice as to whether we wanted to be there or not. It was a lunch when he used to yell, and he required that all staff be at lunch.
Listening to some of his rantings will show you why many of us think he is mentally unstable.
I also want to mention an article called "Why It's Not An Affair". See this link: http://www.advocateweb.org/hope/notanaffair.asp. It talks about ministers using their power and influence to coerce women in to sex. It's not just sex or a consentual affair. It's rape because there is manipulation involved. It doesn't matter if it's mental or physical manipulation.
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karmicdebt
I know if I had to stand in judgement before my peers, folks could drum up enough offenses, that I should look much more horrific than I want to believe I am. I am lucky enough that I too fell from grace and it took the clawing my way back up to realize I needed to receive immeasurable grace, compassion and forgiveness. That is when I found the same grace, compassion and forgiveness for others. At the same time I would never deny another their absolute right to any feelings they have about a person, situation or experience.
LCM hurt me personally, not just as a member of the group. I am not sure if I ever forgave him or bothered to, but I do try to look at people before life damaged the hell out of them...and see goodness. To say one does not have it is to also deny the dark side of ourselves. That can't be good.
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What The Hey
Remarkable that your description of LCM precisely reminds me of the personaility of another pastor I recently came in contact with about a year ago - with the possible exception of not picking his own wife. Must be the "typical job description" for pastors in the "fundie-type" ministries.
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allan w.
Agree with you too Sogwap (S.on O.f G.od W.ay of A.bundance and P.ower) ? You're still an 'innie' aren't you ??!!
I hope not....anyways, as I said before. IF LCM ever genuinely repented he would have to be under 'spiritual suspicion' and 'micromanaged' for the rest of his life !!
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Nottawayfer
Allan,
I think SOGWAP stood for Son of God With All Power. Remember the song?
"You are a son of God with all power
you are here to worship the one true God"
Acts 29 around 1984?
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Catcup
Greetings and welcome, Freud, from a kindred spirit. I don't often get here because I carry an extremely heavy schedule, but I got a private note to check out the thread.
Your training serves you well. You are correct here. But there are actually a constellation of problems.
I, too, have seen this "broken man" routine personally, face to face, in a Chicago hotel suite, back in 1987 some time during his first major "difficulty" commonly known as the big split. He was then exactly as you describe him now. You should know he was definitely suicidal back then. However he quickly rallied when he got enough people helping him and encouraging him and backing him up. Unfortunately, as you might suspect, he went headlong back into the same habit patterns commonly seen with that disorder. Regretably, he went on to hurt many more people than before, and was more vicious than ever.
Maybe. One could only hope. I just wish I could be half as optimistic.
That's precisely what my spouse and I thought back in 1987. However, after enjoying a brief period of time (several years, in fact) in which it looked like he was recovering well, all hell broke loose and he ended up being twofold the "child of hell" he was to begin with. If you involve yourself and your spouse with this man, you should know that you do so to your own peril and should go in with your eyes wide open.
My advice to you, would be to revisit your original conclusion:
Be warned: the problems this man has is bigger than the two of you can handle alone. His humility and "timidity" masks the leviathon just under the surface of those waters.
Precisely.
Listen to your gut.
LISTEN TO YOUR GUT
and revisit your orginal conclusion.
Consider yourself warned.
My best regards. Now I must get back to the groves of academe.
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papertrained
I have not been here in nearly a year. I imagine this reply will make way for many rebuttals but that's OK with me. I did not read all pages of this post but after the first two pages, I had to write. I welcome what Freud said and am glad he posted.
LCM was described by Freud as a broken man, someone who seems to be struggling, someone with a vague past, someone carrying sadness.
I recognize that man. It could have been me that he described, when I was climbing my own uphill battle when I was down from sin, burdened with guilt and seeking answers...questioning my whole life up to that point and greatly desiring DELIVERANCE. I was carrying a heavy burden that was too heavy for me to carry alone.
I would only go to God and seek God alone because I felt like I could trust no one, talk to no one and all I wanted to do was HIDE from every one. Even strangers could not be trusted. WHo would possibly understand and listen and not judge or condemn me if they REALLY knew the facts about me, if they knew all the horrible details? I was already judged and condemned by myself. I already was living in my own misery, I did not want smeones' judgements to make it worse. I just wanted to live at peace again, like I knew a long time ago...
But Hiding did not help and finally God directed me to a local relevant church [see http://www.relevantmagazine.com] that loved me up again, showing me unconditional love and concern. They encouraged me and let me be who I am, let me rise, let me shine and let God work in me and let me fulfill the calling God has had on my life since I was a little kid. It all started with a (get this one, an X Way grad) woman teaching about intimacy with God... It was a process and it took MUCH time, but Now I am FREE.
Jesus Christ said:
Matthew 11: 28 Come unto me, {COME UNTO ME, meaning himself, JESUS} all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Now I had always gone to God. I prayed to God. I acknowledged God and I read God's word. I never before EVER came to Jesus before. So I tried it out. So when the battle got intense, I began to say, "Jesus. " Sometimes thats all I could say because my guts felt like they were wrenching apart with pain and grief. Know what happened? I got peace and was able to rest more in the promises of God and got brought up higher than I ever had, ever before.
I pray that LCM will receive the same deliverance I have known.I pray that anyone who was ever hurt by any man or woman, especially sexually, will receive deliverance from the seering pain and life changing agony of affliction.
I lived through incest. I lived through sexual abuse and sexual assault. Even after all I have known, even after all I have done as retribution for the pain that was afflicted upon me, I can honestly say now that I AM FREE.
Jesus Christ's broken body was enough for all mankinds' sins for all time and I thank God that I am free becasue of what He accomplished for me. I know I have not said I am sorry to most of the people I have hurt... Sadly, I do not know their names. I do not know where they live. I do not even remember what they look like. But I asked God to forgive me in the name of Jesus Christ and it was enough.
The people who used and abused me have NEVER asked for my forgiveness. I decided to let it go...to forgive them so I would not become bitter and resentful. Free, on both sides; unforgiveness of wrongs done to me & wrongs I inflicted upon others, is a great place to be.
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likeaneagle
Beware of your own doings-
I have met that very remorseful , sorrowful attitude in many who where affiliated w/ THe Way and behind that HELP me personality is a very hard person ready to snap your finger off.For some Ive met its guilt by association...which the guilt that doesnt belong to them but to perpetrator.Its a conscious you dont realy want to delve into. Without the confession and even with the confession I'd be watchful. It all looks good from the outside.Guilt is hard to face,especialy the load this man must have.
Let him bring it to you.If he has a conscious left, it will surface..
God will give him a way out when he is honest and ready if he can get back.
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sogwap51
Allan W. - I am not an innie. I got out in 1990 and Wayfer Not is correct on SOGWAP = Son Of God With All Power.
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shazdancer
Welcome, Dr. Freud.
I was only around Craig a few times, as a part of the Way Corps that was overseen by a different person. (1979-80) So I can't comment on much about his personality, except that he came off to me as a loud-mouthed jock, nothing very subtle or compassionate. But it was clear that the Corps people who he worked with directly adored him, so there must have been something that endeared him to them.
You spoke about antisocial personality. I was reading lately that one of the identifying characteristics of a sociopath (antisocial) is that they want you to pity them. Could that be where your "fallen man" impression of Craig fits in?
There has been speculation on Greasespot that he and/or V. P. Wierwille were either antisocial or narcissistic. In the case of narcissistic personality disorder, the person often battles depression, either when his facade has been revealed, or in later life, as he realizes that his attempts at creating false selves to be admired don't bring him happiness. Perhaps this is true of the antisocial as well, I don't know. Could this be what you are seeing in Craig, or is he just one big walking narcissistic wound, because he has been found out?
Finally, there is evidence that Wierwille was always disfunctional: a bully, risk-taker, heavy drinker, emotional and sexual abuser. His father was an abuser. Some say Wierwille was a nice guy one-on-one, but it doesn't sound like any of them got real personally close to him like Craig (or Howard or Chris) did.
But in Craig's case, people have come on from time to time who seem to have known Craig as an okay jock back in the day, but quite changed as he grew in power in The Way. So I think the jury is still out as to whether Craig was born personality disordered, or whether he took on some of those traits as a result of being influenced by Wierwille and a lot of power in the closed environment of "Way World."
Regards,
Shaz
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diazbro
Guys like LCM seldom if ever reach a point of contrition in their lives. The depression and sadness they experience is typically the result of having lost influence and not being in the limelight anymore. Their sadness and pain is based on their loss of stature and certainly not out of regret for having hurt anyone. Were LCM to be somehow restored to his previous position he would pick up where left off and might in fact become worse as he would see it as God's work and think "Hey if I were really that bad then God wouldn't have brought me back. Now I'll REALLY clean house".
I always think of LCM as the bully type who abused others and saw it as something that was necessary for him to maintain control over the situation. The fact that he had to resort to obscentiies, screaming, and hatred of others (homosexuals, non Way participants "corpses") shows only that his self-image was fragile enough to be threatended by any number of personal demons (in a figurative sense) and insecurities.
I am aware that LCM used to play up his jock image but he really didn't get much playing time in college so for him to be calling the shots at the TWI was catch-up time for him. Also LCM was very vain and when he started losing his hair I think he got worse - like he had to prove that he could still "score" or that he had to keep proving that he was "the prez".
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templelady
The question of whether LCM is "broken" because of what he did or "broken" because of what he lost is a valid one
IF LCM is sorry for what he did, there would still be tremendous pressure from TWI to keep his mouth shut. TWI HAS HIS CHILDREN and while many of us were put in the same situation thanks to him, it can be no less painful for him as the shoe lands on the other foot. I can see why he wouldn't want to cause them any more pain, and I don't put it past the WayGB to remind him of that little bit of leverage if the subject of apologies came up.
On the other hand, Catcup {{{{nice to see you}}} has some really valid points.
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TheEvan
That's a beautiful post, papertrained. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
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Linda Z
Freud, thank you for posting what you have. I've often wondered how Craig is today, and I appreciate hearing from someone with firsthand knowledge.
My sadness for the people he hurt (and I know he did) doesn't diminish the pity I feel for him. But sometimes a man has to get to the knot on the very end of his rope before he'll turn to God to pull him up. I can only hope for his sake that that's the case for Craig.
I'm no big defender of LCM. I was around him for four years ('82-'86) while I was on staff at twi's headquarters in Ohio and wasn't a big fan. I found him to be hot-headed and intimidating at times and warm and endearing at other times. He could be harsh and judgmental one day and then quiet and reflective the next. But I've heard from several people, as Evan has said here, that he was a pretty nice guy before he gained so much power in twi. I've also heard he had a genuine passion for God and the Bible and was tireless in teaching and sharing.
It's a long way down from the heights of power and control LCM once attained to the place where he apparently finds himself today. Life is a humbling experience for most of us, and I imagine life's lessons are even harder to take when you have had an inflated opinion of your own abilities and importance.
I harbor no ill will for the man. If you can help him, great. You sound like a man with your head screwed on pretty straight. I'm sure you'll use your own judgment and follow your heart. Regardless of what action or inaction you decide on, thank you for coming here and sharing your observations.
Karmic, thanks for what you shared, too...great heart and honesty. Ditto to Papertrained (welcome!) and sogwap (good to see ya here, kiddo!). Great poem, too, laleo...so poignant. I love Auden.
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TheInvisibleDan
"minister to him"?
Funny, but in my experience I've never heard anyone else outside of the Way International use that expression (though perhaps others here have).
hmmm...oh well. Entertaining posts anyways.
Danny
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satori001
I've seen and heard that phrase. Not much original about TWI really. To "minister to someone" outside TWI just means providing some kind of comfort or assistance, in a Christian context.
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J0nny Ling0
Well Sigmund,
Quite an intriguing thread here. And, I say, shoot man, if the subject ever comes up, and he seems to be penitent, why shore, help him. I would if I could. I have no fear of him at all, but I would certainly endeavor to listen to God to see if he is for real. But shoot, help him? I ain't agin it...
My wife once knew him in Oklahoma back in the early seventies, and he was once a nice guy. I hope he can find peace again being just a "regular person" again...
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markomalley
Some of my Protestant friends have. The context was a purely spiritual one (akin to counseling), as opposed to the TWI usage.
I personally know two women who state they were raped by LCM. Obviously it's not my place to disclose personally identifiable information...so you'll have to just take my word for it...
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TheEvan
I feel compelled to pipe in here and say that Al Capone never was a gangster, as far as I know. If he was, you can be sure he'd have been jailed for that. All he ever did wrong was get in trouble with the IRS.
Right, oldies?
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