I have considered this. Now that I know who he is...I thought of approaching him with this very issue.
But I dunno....the person described in ex-Way material is a psychopathic loon.
Uh, yeah, that's him. I worked on staff while he held the great Man of God position, and I can truly verify that he is a psychopathic loon. My only regrets are putting him on a pedestal where he didn't belong. But then again, he lied about his life-style. His loonacy was apparent though. I drank The Way's koolaid for 20 years. It took me awhile before I realized it.
I have heard from reliable sources that he is not remorseful for what he did and that he feels he did nothing wrong. That is true sadness. He hurt a lot of people and ruined a lot of lives in the name of God.
I still could not find anything on the web by googling "L. Craig Martindale" or "The Way International" that specifically states that Martindale is currently living in the Toledo area, until I saw your post on GS tonight. If I missed that elsewhere here at GS, I apologize.
If you do a google search for L Craig Martindale then go down a few pages you will find the Ballys thing. There are a couple more that refer to Toledo elswhere.
Freud,
Excuse us if some of us seem skeptical of your story. There may be a few sycophantic Martindale fans still around who might try to post something like you have in order to get folks to feel sorry for Craig. It also could be a (sick) joke from someone wanting to stir the pot. We are not easily deceived.
Martindale did some very dispicable things and has yet to offer those whose lives he tainted or destroyed any kind of apology. Neither has he shown any thing like contrition for his dispicable actions. Seem like the man you described may just be on a pity pot. Sorry becasue he lost his kingdom and perks.
If you are for real, then you know by now that this man was not completely honest with you. Personally, I wonder why you posted this stuff here. What is to be gained? Sympathy for Craig? Not likely.
Listen to this and see if this sounds like the Craig you met ....
If he is truly hurting and wants to get a load off, then he should stop being a coward and be a man and come here and face many of the folks that he harmed. He knows what he did and he knows what he needs to do if he ever hopes to have any kind of peace in hie life. Hiding and running won't do it.
I have not experienced what I would call a strong sense of humor. He does have a interest in sports and enjoys talking sports and athletes. Otherwise I sense a "broken man"...a phrase that came to my mind after my first conversation with him. There is a timidy to him now. He is a physically a big-boned man, but is almost obsequious in conversations.
I do believe in repentance and forgiveness...but I was not the one wronged by him.
I did relate to him that I was a " Christian" and a pretty traditional one. He didn't delve into any serious theological debate with me. He prefered to discuss other personal struggles when the topic was raised.
Again...this is all new to me. I have no agenda or plan beyond getting this info off of my chest.
Pax et bonum!
Timidity huh? I believe in repentance and forgiveness also. But if Craig Martindale wants to repent and ask for forgiveness of all of those he hurt, that would be a HUGE liability on The Way's part. They would go bankrupt from the lawsuits that would be started by his demands of people in the name of God. He would be admitting to a lot while he was basically the CEO of tha organization. Keeping the money for the cult is more important than people's hearts and lives.
I hope Craig does get the opportunity to some day apologize for his wrongs. He must be in agony if he has (or ever had) a heart or conscience. You can thank him personally for me because it was his very own words which kept ringing in my ears that helped me leave the cult. His manner was to always yell in public and go on for hours like a drama queen. He always yelled, "Practical error ALWAYS leads to doctrinal error!!!" Remembering that and then finding out his life-style helped me to realize that I couldn't trust the doctrine I had been taught all of my adult life. I also found out that the Man of God before him did the same things. Thanks Craig! My life is soooo much better now.
Up until the time I started reading this thread I was one of those who would have been glad to tear that man apart with my bare hands....piece by piece if necessary.
Now - I'm not so sure. Is he worthy of my pitty? I dunno that either.
I believe he is probably medicated. He was once seriously depressed and it may be that he is again. But the brokenness you describe lies outside that. He did fall from greatness. Are you seeing genuine remorse? I hope so because if it is genuine, he has an opportunity to make it right again at least with the Father if not with us. Or is this sorrow over getting caught? Again, I have no way to know.
I would hate to see anyone with his set of circumstances go into eternity with these things not made as right as possible with God - so if you can point him in that direction I hope you will. Don't go against your own conscience though.
I'm going to disengage from all my negative "evil" dreams and maybe even pray for him...not because I want to...but because it's what the Word of God says. (I read it in there once.)
Thanks Freud. I would also like to hear from time to time if you are so inclined.
I read two posts ( not here I don't believe)...sounds like different incidents....that reference a child and Martindale and God". The first is that a child had watched the video where he dances...and then that night telling his mom that he should pray to Martindale instead of God.
That you read here.
Here's the background...
vpw-victor paul wierwille-was the first president of the way international.
He carefully constructed an aura of specialness around himself, partly thru
concealing his sources and convincing people he was getting it all from God.
lcm-l craig martindale-was the second president of the way international.
vpw recruited him pretty much out of college. He put the super-loyal
(impressed by the aura of specialness) craig in charge of the way corps
(vpw's eliteness program which became his instrument of control over
the organization.)
When it came time to choose a successor, vpw listened to everyone
recommend everyone BUT lcm-then chose lcm. lcm, you see, was the
most blindly loyal, follow-vpw-off-a-cliff man he could find,
and figured the way corps would follow him.
lcm's only real education came as an athlete in college, and the rest
of his life was spent in twi. When he got the big chair, he put his
athletic emphasis on it. When he saw "Staying Alive", and the
dance sequence "Satan's Alley", he insisted on ripping it off and
doing a 2-hour production on it. He hinted around until someone
suggested he play the lead, and had the nerve to look surprised
when it was suggested. That production was called
"Athletes of the Spirit".
That's what that little kid was talking about. He saw craig onstage,
dancing around, bopping devils on the head or whatever,
and got the message craig wanted the adults to get but they
didn't.
The actual quote from the kid was that they didn't need to
pray, since craig would protect them.
The second..I just read a few hours ago (not sure where...but I can track down the link) that a child said that listening to Rev. Martindale was the same as listening to God.
I don't remember that quote from here.
It certainly was the essence of what he wanted the ADULTS
I completely understand the skepticism directed towards my post. The internet is a place where anyone can claim anything. I'm not sure what I could do to establish my legitimacy and still protect my privacy and others around me. On the other hand...the fact that I posted anything on this inflamatory topic means that I do owe everyone at least some followup. I am not going to be a hit and run poster.
I want to clarify a few things. What I have posted is simply my surface impression of Craig. He appears to be a broken man, he appears timid and reticent in his manner.
Now before I knew his past I had no reason to question this...thus I have honestly felt compassion for this man
in the past. I can tell you with conplete candor that I would drive away from a discussion with him and pray that God would be with him...he seemed like a lost soul.
BUT...and this is a big but, knowing what I know now...well as I have expressed....this is a situation of cogntive dissonance.
As I mentioned in my initial post, I have an interest in cult groups and dynamics that drive the leadership of such groups. It may seem suspicious that someone with this interest and background would by chance encounter a notorious cult leader..but that is exactly what has happened.
Here in lies the rub...my experience tells me that to do the things that Craig did would clearly place him in the anti-social personality category. I do not use this term lightly and have a complete understanding of the precise clinical meaning of it. If true, then he would more than likely be beyond any "help" and as a social pathology would be someone to run from.
On the other hand....a small minority of these people do seem to develop internalized moral structures as they age. Perhaps...perhaps.
Then there is the "Christian" side of me that wants to think that maybe God brought us together to minister to him.
Oh heck...I have no idea!
In no way shape or form should anyone think that I am trying to "soften" what he did to TWI members. It is clear that that he victimized so many innocent people who were just trying to do the right thing with their lives. What I read can only be described as wickedness and evil at the highest level.
At this point...I can't see going out of my way to contact him. I will probably see him soon...but that is just created by circumstances. Frankly...at this point I am more motivated to protect myself and my family than try to dig deeper into this issue.
Peace to all of you........
F
And yes...as someone posted...Sigmund was pretty messed up :)
Here in lies the rub...my experience tells me that to do the things that Craig did would clearly place him in the anti-social personality category. I do not use this term lightly and have a complete understanding of the precise clinical meaning of it. If true, then he would more than likely be beyond any "help" and as a social pathology would be someone to run from.
On the other hand....a small minority of these people do seem to develop internalized moral structures as they age. Perhaps...perhaps.
Then there is the "Christian" side of me that wants to think that maybe God brought us together to minister to him.
Oh heck...I have no idea!
Tough call, I agree. But what is at risk for you? What would you be running from, if you choose to run? You're not a vulnerable teen-ager confused about the meaning of life, stumbling onto a Bible group. You aren't seeking his counsel, his trust, his companionship. You aren't offering him your wife.
Go with the Christian side, unless you have something to lose that you're not mentioning here. In fact, from what you've said, you have nothing to lose. What you stand to gain is experience, and from that experience, wisdom, especially if this is an area you feel you have some expertise in. And you have the chance to help someone else. We're talking about an investment of a few conversations, right?
And yes...as someone posted...Sigmund was pretty messed up :)
Freud, my first thought reading your initial post was that this was a hoax. No offense intended. Just seemed unlikely.
I hope you'll continue to post your thoughts and impressions. True or false, you have my attention.
Regards...
I'm kind of leaning this way as well... no offense Freud, but you mentioned in your first post that “some of my work centers around the various aspects of religious belief and the dynamics of cults and religious leaders.”
Then later you said “I have an interest in cult groups and dynamics that drive the leadership of such groups. It may seem suspicious that someone with this interest and background would by chance encounter a notorious cult leader..but that is exactly what has happened.”
And I guess I’m picking nits here, or maybe I just misunderstood… but first you referenced it as “some of your work” and the second time it was “an interest”… I suppose it could be work you are interested in, or an interest as well as your work…
I guess that’s not a big deal, I’m just a little leery here… mainly wondering how someone whose “work” or “interest” was the “dynamics of cults and religious leaders” didn’t already know about The Way International (TWI) or L Craig Martindale until accidentally stumbling on the material the other day…
As Satori said: “I hope you'll continue to post your thoughts and impressions. True or false, you have my attention.” I’m curious to see where this goes…
I'm kind of leaning this way as well... no offense Freud, but you mentioned in your first post that “some of my work centers around the various aspects of religious belief and the dynamics of cults and religious leaders.”
Then later you said “I have an interest in cult groups and dynamics that drive the leadership of such groups. It may seem suspicious that someone with this interest and background would by chance encounter a notorious cult leader..but that is exactly what has happened.”
And I guess I’m picking nits here, or maybe I just misunderstood… but first you referenced it as “some of your work” and the second time it was “an interest”… I suppose it could be work you are interested in, or an interest as well as your work…
I
As you point out...interest and work are not mutually exclusive. I am vague...but not to be deceptive...but rather protective.
As far as knowing about TWI...well I must admit that my knowledge about it was pretty much ziltch...yes I had a distant recollection of the name...but nothing of substance.
My main focus has been on quasi-political cults with a passing interest in purely religious ones. I did a lot of research on the American Militia movement back in the early 90's...prior to the Waco debacle and the Oak City bombing. I have spoken extensively on the Michigan Milita and other para-military groups.
I have also spoken to several churches but my lectures concern various aspects of belief...not religious ideology. In addition I've been on Christian Radio stations discussing various aspects of belief and faith.
Anyhow....I'll be away from the 'puter for a few days...but I'll check back mid week.
Whoever LCM really is as a person...the folks here who have seen him in action over several years probably have a clearer picture of the man than the selective and filtered one that I have experienced.
I just thought that I would add my experiences into the arena of discussion. Take them and do what them whatever you will!
I'm normally firmly in the ranks of the skeptics here at GS, but, everything you've said thus far has the ring of truth to it, and my B.S. meter hasn't registered anything yet, so...
My take on LCM is that - despite the carnage that he himself wrought in people's lives - he was ultimately one of the biggest victims of VPW (Victor Paul Wierwille, founder of the cult of The Way International).
Craig became the victim because he actually believed the B.S. Where as Wierwille - driven, no doubt by some sort of anti-social pathology - played the game of being "The Man of God for Our Day and Time", LCM actually thought that he WAS that.
I never was overwhelmed with Craig's intellect. And ultimately he was simply a buffoon caught up in some surreal role-playing game, who ended up in way over his head, trying to fill the shoes of a master-grifter. And he had neither the personna nor the aptitude to really pull off a con of that magnitude. And really, he didn't even know that it was a con.
After all, he was a man of limited experience in the world. He never held a real job, never really came into his own, didn't even pick his own wife. He was an immature jock with a gift of gab and great knack for working a crowd, but with little or no depth. Then he was turned loose to man the helm of a modest-sized, but voriaciously loyal group of cultists. Geeze, what could possibly go wrong with that?
So, while my heart doesn't wellup in sympathy for the gimp, I would guess that he's a pretty pathetic wretch about now. Oh well, reality can be a harsh taskmaster...
Are you aware that he was "THE Man of God For Our Day and Time". He was Joshua/Paul/Elijah/Moses all rolled into one (or so he tried to have us believe). I think he actually believed a that he was the only guy on the planet who really knew what was going on.
Yea him -that guy you met - was THE guy once.
Pride does come before the fall--and he had placed himself way way up there-so the fall was mighty far.
I don't wish him any ill, everyone has to break with their illusions from time to time and deal with it although they are usually much much smaller in there scope than his were It's never easy --in fact it can be devastating--but it is necessary.
I'm sure he is broken now but i dont count that as a bad thing, He just has one helluva lot of crap to clean up.
I do hope you're able to help the man. He was a genuinely nice guy before he drank the Way Koolaid. I think some of his antisocial nuttiness he displayed when in power was a result of his being in way over his head...
You have some truth in your posting here. Although not words some would care to read nor could one blame them for it. Still you speak things that I know to be true.
Welcome to a site where you are the highlight right now.
I'm one of ED's consumer advocates over on ROR. As you know, there is no way to leave contact info on ripoffreport for the lady that did that rebuttal.
I can't reveal who that advocate is obviously, as there is nothing allowed but first name and city given out on that forum, to protect the people who file a report. I do know her though, we live in the same area and I can tell you she posted it for exactly the goal it accomplished. So people would find Craig's name, dig a little deeper and find this forum. ROR's get found on Goggle very easily, so it was a good place to do a post ... on a Bally's thread.
If you ever posted on the usenet cult groups in the past, chances are we know each other already. You sound like you get around the net like I do. Those who find ROR are usually searching for something, so I tend to believe your story.
excathedra, I remember those things being posted, but don't have the time or energy to search for them....sowwwy.
I have to say, though, that I think his broken demeanor may be attributed to serious levels of prescription drugs, more than genuine remorse. Sorry for getting caught. Sorry for not having his pick of women to rape and abuse. Sorry for not having Dottie Moynihan and others to cover for him. Sorry for having to fix his own meals, wash his own laundry, clean his own toilet..... but not remorse for the lives he destroyed.
I'm sorry that I can't feel sorry for the guy. If he was truly sorry, don't you think that, after establishing a relationship of trust with you, he would have come clean or at least expressed some sort of remorse for who he was in his past?
I know my Daddy does....he was just very, very authoritarian and a strict perfectionist, but it was out of all the pressure to provide and be a good Daddy and husband at a much younger age than he was ready for. He'll tell people he was an foot when us kids were growing up and then he'll tell you what's more important to him than anything these days is us kids and that he learned his lesson and tries to put the most important things first these days.
No need for either to go into details, but I would expect that if he was truly remorseful, he'd at least throw bits out there admitting as much as he was comfortable with. *shrug*
Not skeptical of your posts, Freud, just skeptical that craig has any true remorse about his actions. I think he's sorry he's not having his feet kissed and kids praying to him anymore.
Freud: One thing occurs to me that nobody else has touched upon. We're not sure just how much contact he has with people from the Way. We DO know that there are people from the Way who monitor posts on GSC. We call them the WAYGB. So it is very possible that already someone from TWI may have contacted him about this thread. Just a thought.
Freud, interesting posts. I know when he was made president of TWI, his and his wife's parents were against it, they thought it was too much power and money for such a young man.
People who weren't in TWI really don't realize how much power this man had over people's lives. In public he was a dynamic speaker and teacher. But, the verse from Timothy comes to mind - "not a novice, lest being lifted up, he fall into condemnation of the devil." I think this is as close to what happened to him as I can gather.
In the beginning, he was a genuinely nice guy, but when he found TWI, he did latch onto and basically worship VPW and set about parroting and imitating everything VP did or said. LCM's father even had a confrontation with VP saying, he stole his son.
LCM was used to having the authority from VP and being the "boss" for years. He oversaw the Way corps - that was hundreds, and even thousands of "top leadership" he ruled over, plus all the people of the ministry. It was over the years he went more and more off the deep end. When the pressure would be on, as during the "fog years" and after the POP was read, he would get suicidal and be medicated, maybe this is what you are seeing now.
But, if he liked you, and for some reason he did me, even after I refused to sleep with him twice, he could be the greatest guy. Once you spent time with him offstage, so to speak, when he didn't have to be "on" we'd talk about different things, joke around - he was just great to be with. I'd almost say we were friends.
TWI taught that if you renewed your mind enough, you can walk like Christ in this day and age. And, if you were spiritually heavy enough, basically nothing was a sin if you could "handle it." Power, adulation, money, never working a day in his life, having all of his needs taken care of - take a look at pictures of TWI Headquarters - he truly had it made. I believe his fall was caused by pride and hubris.
I remember when he had a heart. Now, he needs true repentance and to humbly ask people's foregiveness. Yes, I can imagine he's in a daze, still kind of wondering "what happened?" But, if he truly wants to know God and Christ, I would think, after being out for awhile, he would start coming to his senses.
It sounds as if he's wallowing in self-pity - not sorry for what he's done, but that he's lost his kingdom.
Freud, thank you for posting and sharing about your encounters with this man. I certainly understand and respect your reasons for keeping confidentiality standards. You strike me as someone who is probably a clinical pastoral counselor, or the like.
It's not easy to think about this man as being under-employed, having humuility, or even feeling broken about his situation.
The LCM I knew wore $$$$ Armani suits, screamed "teachings", and demanded 101% loyality to him and TWI. He boasted that he could easily run any Fortune 500 Company. He lived in a home that most of us could only dream about, with free housekeeping and nanny service 24/7. People had to stand when he walked in the room - even those who were also ordained, as he was THE MAN of GOD. This man sent out a picture of himself dressed as Joshua, as a Christmas present to the ministry's college alumni, because he thought he brought the ministry to "The Promised Land." He made decisions about peoples' lives that lead to abortions, divorces, children walking away from their dying parents, and engaged couples breaking up - all because he thought he knew "what was best" for them "according to the Word."
The slight discomfort he is experiencing as a "broken man" is nothing compared to the utter pain he has caused people. Whether it be the posters here, those who are still "in" TWI, who are still under some of the madates he set up that the ministry still subscribes to, he caused much more pain than he will probably ever realize.
In reading your posts it struck me that LCM was maybe reaching out for help. I certainly hope so, but he really needed it a long, long, time ago. Part of me feels that he was a monster and knowingly abused the power that was so easily handed to him. I feel that he may now be reaching for help, but perhaps he is hindered because of his own teachings about how not to look for help outside of the Household (ministry) because you don't need to pay someone to be your friend. Either way, I feel he is now where he needs to be, for the most part, although I think some time behind bars wouldn't have hurt him any. I hope he has a good, long, dose of how it feels to be brought to nothing - because many of us, myself included, were broght to that level because of him and his ministry.
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excathedra
what other sites do you post on while you post and work and work and post
thank you for the hair answer
wasn't sigmund a messed up dude
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satori001
Freud, my first thought reading your initial post was that this was a hoax. No offense intended. Just seemed unlikely.
I hope you'll continue to post your thoughts and impressions. True or false, you have my attention.
Regards...
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Nottawayfer
Uh, yeah, that's him. I worked on staff while he held the great Man of God position, and I can truly verify that he is a psychopathic loon. My only regrets are putting him on a pedestal where he didn't belong. But then again, he lied about his life-style. His loonacy was apparent though. I drank The Way's koolaid for 20 years. It took me awhile before I realized it.
I have heard from reliable sources that he is not remorseful for what he did and that he feels he did nothing wrong. That is true sadness. He hurt a lot of people and ruined a lot of lives in the name of God.
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Goey
If you do a google search for L Craig Martindale then go down a few pages you will find the Ballys thing. There are a couple more that refer to Toledo elswhere.
Freud,
Excuse us if some of us seem skeptical of your story. There may be a few sycophantic Martindale fans still around who might try to post something like you have in order to get folks to feel sorry for Craig. It also could be a (sick) joke from someone wanting to stir the pot. We are not easily deceived.
Martindale did some very dispicable things and has yet to offer those whose lives he tainted or destroyed any kind of apology. Neither has he shown any thing like contrition for his dispicable actions. Seem like the man you described may just be on a pity pot. Sorry becasue he lost his kingdom and perks.
If you are for real, then you know by now that this man was not completely honest with you. Personally, I wonder why you posted this stuff here. What is to be gained? Sympathy for Craig? Not likely.
Listen to this and see if this sounds like the Craig you met ....
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/realmedia/prayers.rm
If he is truly hurting and wants to get a load off, then he should stop being a coward and be a man and come here and face many of the folks that he harmed. He knows what he did and he knows what he needs to do if he ever hopes to have any kind of peace in hie life. Hiding and running won't do it.
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Nottawayfer
Timidity huh? I believe in repentance and forgiveness also. But if Craig Martindale wants to repent and ask for forgiveness of all of those he hurt, that would be a HUGE liability on The Way's part. They would go bankrupt from the lawsuits that would be started by his demands of people in the name of God. He would be admitting to a lot while he was basically the CEO of tha organization. Keeping the money for the cult is more important than people's hearts and lives.
I hope Craig does get the opportunity to some day apologize for his wrongs. He must be in agony if he has (or ever had) a heart or conscience. You can thank him personally for me because it was his very own words which kept ringing in my ears that helped me leave the cult. His manner was to always yell in public and go on for hours like a drama queen. He always yelled, "Practical error ALWAYS leads to doctrinal error!!!" Remembering that and then finding out his life-style helped me to realize that I couldn't trust the doctrine I had been taught all of my adult life. I also found out that the Man of God before him did the same things. Thanks Craig! My life is soooo much better now.
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krys
Up until the time I started reading this thread I was one of those who would have been glad to tear that man apart with my bare hands....piece by piece if necessary.
Now - I'm not so sure. Is he worthy of my pitty? I dunno that either.
I believe he is probably medicated. He was once seriously depressed and it may be that he is again. But the brokenness you describe lies outside that. He did fall from greatness. Are you seeing genuine remorse? I hope so because if it is genuine, he has an opportunity to make it right again at least with the Father if not with us. Or is this sorrow over getting caught? Again, I have no way to know.
I would hate to see anyone with his set of circumstances go into eternity with these things not made as right as possible with God - so if you can point him in that direction I hope you will. Don't go against your own conscience though.
I'm going to disengage from all my negative "evil" dreams and maybe even pray for him...not because I want to...but because it's what the Word of God says. (I read it in there once.)
Thanks Freud. I would also like to hear from time to time if you are so inclined.
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WordWolf
Hello.
I can try to summarize a few things, if you want.
That you read here.
Here's the background...
vpw-victor paul wierwille-was the first president of the way international.
He carefully constructed an aura of specialness around himself, partly thru
concealing his sources and convincing people he was getting it all from God.
lcm-l craig martindale-was the second president of the way international.
vpw recruited him pretty much out of college. He put the super-loyal
(impressed by the aura of specialness) craig in charge of the way corps
(vpw's eliteness program which became his instrument of control over
the organization.)
When it came time to choose a successor, vpw listened to everyone
recommend everyone BUT lcm-then chose lcm. lcm, you see, was the
most blindly loyal, follow-vpw-off-a-cliff man he could find,
and figured the way corps would follow him.
lcm's only real education came as an athlete in college, and the rest
of his life was spent in twi. When he got the big chair, he put his
athletic emphasis on it. When he saw "Staying Alive", and the
dance sequence "Satan's Alley", he insisted on ripping it off and
doing a 2-hour production on it. He hinted around until someone
suggested he play the lead, and had the nerve to look surprised
when it was suggested. That production was called
"Athletes of the Spirit".
That's what that little kid was talking about. He saw craig onstage,
dancing around, bopping devils on the head or whatever,
and got the message craig wanted the adults to get but they
didn't.
The actual quote from the kid was that they didn't need to
pray, since craig would protect them.
I don't remember that quote from here.
It certainly was the essence of what he wanted the ADULTS
to think, however.
You can find a lot more about craig here:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...topic=9019&st=0
It's a thread called "vp and me in wonderland",
and studies a book by lcm, called "vp and me."
You'll get to see how the humanity and compassion was trained out
of him, so that he became the monster that so many people credit
with ruining lives all thru the 1990s.
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Freud
WordWolf...thanks for the historical background.
To Everyone,
I completely understand the skepticism directed towards my post. The internet is a place where anyone can claim anything. I'm not sure what I could do to establish my legitimacy and still protect my privacy and others around me. On the other hand...the fact that I posted anything on this inflamatory topic means that I do owe everyone at least some followup. I am not going to be a hit and run poster.
I want to clarify a few things. What I have posted is simply my surface impression of Craig. He appears to be a broken man, he appears timid and reticent in his manner.
Now before I knew his past I had no reason to question this...thus I have honestly felt compassion for this man
in the past. I can tell you with conplete candor that I would drive away from a discussion with him and pray that God would be with him...he seemed like a lost soul.
BUT...and this is a big but, knowing what I know now...well as I have expressed....this is a situation of cogntive dissonance.
As I mentioned in my initial post, I have an interest in cult groups and dynamics that drive the leadership of such groups. It may seem suspicious that someone with this interest and background would by chance encounter a notorious cult leader..but that is exactly what has happened.
Here in lies the rub...my experience tells me that to do the things that Craig did would clearly place him in the anti-social personality category. I do not use this term lightly and have a complete understanding of the precise clinical meaning of it. If true, then he would more than likely be beyond any "help" and as a social pathology would be someone to run from.
On the other hand....a small minority of these people do seem to develop internalized moral structures as they age. Perhaps...perhaps.
Then there is the "Christian" side of me that wants to think that maybe God brought us together to minister to him.
Oh heck...I have no idea!
In no way shape or form should anyone think that I am trying to "soften" what he did to TWI members. It is clear that that he victimized so many innocent people who were just trying to do the right thing with their lives. What I read can only be described as wickedness and evil at the highest level.
At this point...I can't see going out of my way to contact him. I will probably see him soon...but that is just created by circumstances. Frankly...at this point I am more motivated to protect myself and my family than try to dig deeper into this issue.
Peace to all of you........
F
And yes...as someone posted...Sigmund was pretty messed up :)
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laleo
Go with the Christian side, unless you have something to lose that you're not mentioning here. In fact, from what you've said, you have nothing to lose. What you stand to gain is experience, and from that experience, wisdom, especially if this is an area you feel you have some expertise in. And you have the chance to help someone else. We're talking about an investment of a few conversations, right?
Maybe. But then again, as Auden said of him . . .
He would have us remember most of all
To be enthusiastic over the night
Not only for the sense of wonder
It alone has to offer, but also
Because it needs our love: for with sad eyes
Its delectable creatures look up and beg
Us dumbly to ask them to follow;
They are exiles who long for the future
That lies in our power. . .
From In Memory of Sigmund Freud -- W.H. Auden
That's my take.
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Tom Strange
I'm kind of leaning this way as well... no offense Freud, but you mentioned in your first post that “some of my work centers around the various aspects of religious belief and the dynamics of cults and religious leaders.”
Then later you said “I have an interest in cult groups and dynamics that drive the leadership of such groups. It may seem suspicious that someone with this interest and background would by chance encounter a notorious cult leader..but that is exactly what has happened.”
And I guess I’m picking nits here, or maybe I just misunderstood… but first you referenced it as “some of your work” and the second time it was “an interest”… I suppose it could be work you are interested in, or an interest as well as your work…
I guess that’s not a big deal, I’m just a little leery here… mainly wondering how someone whose “work” or “interest” was the “dynamics of cults and religious leaders” didn’t already know about The Way International (TWI) or L Craig Martindale until accidentally stumbling on the material the other day…
As Satori said: “I hope you'll continue to post your thoughts and impressions. True or false, you have my attention.” I’m curious to see where this goes…
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Freud
As you point out...interest and work are not mutually exclusive. I am vague...but not to be deceptive...but rather protective.
As far as knowing about TWI...well I must admit that my knowledge about it was pretty much ziltch...yes I had a distant recollection of the name...but nothing of substance.
My main focus has been on quasi-political cults with a passing interest in purely religious ones. I did a lot of research on the American Militia movement back in the early 90's...prior to the Waco debacle and the Oak City bombing. I have spoken extensively on the Michigan Milita and other para-military groups.
I have also spoken to several churches but my lectures concern various aspects of belief...not religious ideology. In addition I've been on Christian Radio stations discussing various aspects of belief and faith.
Anyhow....I'll be away from the 'puter for a few days...but I'll check back mid week.
Whoever LCM really is as a person...the folks here who have seen him in action over several years probably have a clearer picture of the man than the selective and filtered one that I have experienced.
I just thought that I would add my experiences into the arena of discussion. Take them and do what them whatever you will!
F
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George Aar
I'm normally firmly in the ranks of the skeptics here at GS, but, everything you've said thus far has the ring of truth to it, and my B.S. meter hasn't registered anything yet, so...
My take on LCM is that - despite the carnage that he himself wrought in people's lives - he was ultimately one of the biggest victims of VPW (Victor Paul Wierwille, founder of the cult of The Way International).
Craig became the victim because he actually believed the B.S. Where as Wierwille - driven, no doubt by some sort of anti-social pathology - played the game of being "The Man of God for Our Day and Time", LCM actually thought that he WAS that.
I never was overwhelmed with Craig's intellect. And ultimately he was simply a buffoon caught up in some surreal role-playing game, who ended up in way over his head, trying to fill the shoes of a master-grifter. And he had neither the personna nor the aptitude to really pull off a con of that magnitude. And really, he didn't even know that it was a con.
After all, he was a man of limited experience in the world. He never held a real job, never really came into his own, didn't even pick his own wife. He was an immature jock with a gift of gab and great knack for working a crowd, but with little or no depth. Then he was turned loose to man the helm of a modest-sized, but voriaciously loyal group of cultists. Geeze, what could possibly go wrong with that?
So, while my heart doesn't wellup in sympathy for the gimp, I would guess that he's a pretty pathetic wretch about now. Oh well, reality can be a harsh taskmaster...
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mstar1
Well yea, you might say that.
Are you aware that he was "THE Man of God For Our Day and Time". He was Joshua/Paul/Elijah/Moses all rolled into one (or so he tried to have us believe). I think he actually believed a that he was the only guy on the planet who really knew what was going on.
Yea him -that guy you met - was THE guy once.
Pride does come before the fall--and he had placed himself way way up there-so the fall was mighty far.
I don't wish him any ill, everyone has to break with their illusions from time to time and deal with it although they are usually much much smaller in there scope than his were It's never easy --in fact it can be devastating--but it is necessary.
I'm sure he is broken now but i dont count that as a bad thing, He just has one helluva lot of crap to clean up.
Welcome to the cafe
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TheEvan
Geo's assessment is mine.
I do hope you're able to help the man. He was a genuinely nice guy before he drank the Way Koolaid. I think some of his antisocial nuttiness he displayed when in power was a result of his being in way over his head...
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houseisarockin
Freud,
You have some truth in your posting here. Although not words some would care to read nor could one blame them for it. Still you speak things that I know to be true.
Welcome to a site where you are the highlight right now.
House
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BikerBabe
Mr Freud,
I'm one of ED's consumer advocates over on ROR. As you know, there is no way to leave contact info on ripoffreport for the lady that did that rebuttal.
I can't reveal who that advocate is obviously, as there is nothing allowed but first name and city given out on that forum, to protect the people who file a report. I do know her though, we live in the same area and I can tell you she posted it for exactly the goal it accomplished. So people would find Craig's name, dig a little deeper and find this forum. ROR's get found on Goggle very easily, so it was a good place to do a post ... on a Bally's thread.
If you ever posted on the usenet cult groups in the past, chances are we know each other already. You sound like you get around the net like I do. Those who find ROR are usually searching for something, so I tend to believe your story.
My 2 cents everyone.
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Belle
I agree with Geo, too....
excathedra, I remember those things being posted, but don't have the time or energy to search for them....sowwwy.
I have to say, though, that I think his broken demeanor may be attributed to serious levels of prescription drugs, more than genuine remorse. Sorry for getting caught. Sorry for not having his pick of women to rape and abuse. Sorry for not having Dottie Moynihan and others to cover for him. Sorry for having to fix his own meals, wash his own laundry, clean his own toilet..... but not remorse for the lives he destroyed.
I'm sorry that I can't feel sorry for the guy. If he was truly sorry, don't you think that, after establishing a relationship of trust with you, he would have come clean or at least expressed some sort of remorse for who he was in his past?
I know my Daddy does....he was just very, very authoritarian and a strict perfectionist, but it was out of all the pressure to provide and be a good Daddy and husband at a much younger age than he was ready for. He'll tell people he was an foot when us kids were growing up and then he'll tell you what's more important to him than anything these days is us kids and that he learned his lesson and tries to put the most important things first these days.
No need for either to go into details, but I would expect that if he was truly remorseful, he'd at least throw bits out there admitting as much as he was comfortable with. *shrug*
Not skeptical of your posts, Freud, just skeptical that craig has any true remorse about his actions. I think he's sorry he's not having his feet kissed and kids praying to him anymore.
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johniam
Freud: One thing occurs to me that nobody else has touched upon. We're not sure just how much contact he has with people from the Way. We DO know that there are people from the Way who monitor posts on GSC. We call them the WAYGB. So it is very possible that already someone from TWI may have contacted him about this thread. Just a thought.
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SafariVista
This is exactly what I was thinking... BeWare!
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Sunesis
Freud, interesting posts. I know when he was made president of TWI, his and his wife's parents were against it, they thought it was too much power and money for such a young man.
People who weren't in TWI really don't realize how much power this man had over people's lives. In public he was a dynamic speaker and teacher. But, the verse from Timothy comes to mind - "not a novice, lest being lifted up, he fall into condemnation of the devil." I think this is as close to what happened to him as I can gather.
In the beginning, he was a genuinely nice guy, but when he found TWI, he did latch onto and basically worship VPW and set about parroting and imitating everything VP did or said. LCM's father even had a confrontation with VP saying, he stole his son.
LCM was used to having the authority from VP and being the "boss" for years. He oversaw the Way corps - that was hundreds, and even thousands of "top leadership" he ruled over, plus all the people of the ministry. It was over the years he went more and more off the deep end. When the pressure would be on, as during the "fog years" and after the POP was read, he would get suicidal and be medicated, maybe this is what you are seeing now.
But, if he liked you, and for some reason he did me, even after I refused to sleep with him twice, he could be the greatest guy. Once you spent time with him offstage, so to speak, when he didn't have to be "on" we'd talk about different things, joke around - he was just great to be with. I'd almost say we were friends.
TWI taught that if you renewed your mind enough, you can walk like Christ in this day and age. And, if you were spiritually heavy enough, basically nothing was a sin if you could "handle it." Power, adulation, money, never working a day in his life, having all of his needs taken care of - take a look at pictures of TWI Headquarters - he truly had it made. I believe his fall was caused by pride and hubris.
I remember when he had a heart. Now, he needs true repentance and to humbly ask people's foregiveness. Yes, I can imagine he's in a daze, still kind of wondering "what happened?" But, if he truly wants to know God and Christ, I would think, after being out for awhile, he would start coming to his senses.
It sounds as if he's wallowing in self-pity - not sorry for what he's done, but that he's lost his kingdom.
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oldiesman
Welcome Freud and thanks for posting.
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ChasUFarley
Freud, thank you for posting and sharing about your encounters with this man. I certainly understand and respect your reasons for keeping confidentiality standards. You strike me as someone who is probably a clinical pastoral counselor, or the like.
It's not easy to think about this man as being under-employed, having humuility, or even feeling broken about his situation.
The LCM I knew wore $$$$ Armani suits, screamed "teachings", and demanded 101% loyality to him and TWI. He boasted that he could easily run any Fortune 500 Company. He lived in a home that most of us could only dream about, with free housekeeping and nanny service 24/7. People had to stand when he walked in the room - even those who were also ordained, as he was THE MAN of GOD. This man sent out a picture of himself dressed as Joshua, as a Christmas present to the ministry's college alumni, because he thought he brought the ministry to "The Promised Land." He made decisions about peoples' lives that lead to abortions, divorces, children walking away from their dying parents, and engaged couples breaking up - all because he thought he knew "what was best" for them "according to the Word."
The slight discomfort he is experiencing as a "broken man" is nothing compared to the utter pain he has caused people. Whether it be the posters here, those who are still "in" TWI, who are still under some of the madates he set up that the ministry still subscribes to, he caused much more pain than he will probably ever realize.
In reading your posts it struck me that LCM was maybe reaching out for help. I certainly hope so, but he really needed it a long, long, time ago. Part of me feels that he was a monster and knowingly abused the power that was so easily handed to him. I feel that he may now be reaching for help, but perhaps he is hindered because of his own teachings about how not to look for help outside of the Household (ministry) because you don't need to pay someone to be your friend. Either way, I feel he is now where he needs to be, for the most part, although I think some time behind bars wouldn't have hurt him any. I hope he has a good, long, dose of how it feels to be brought to nothing - because many of us, myself included, were broght to that level because of him and his ministry.
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SafariVista
Very well put ChasUFarley
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oldiesman
You won't get attacked by me.
Good post...
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