M. D. Vaden

If I remember correctly, MD Vaden is notorious for swooping in puking his judgement on everyone and then leaves. I suspect that he will not be back, certainly not to have any meaningful dialog about anything.

But I do swoop out, and for a reason.

Frequent use of this forum can "fix" a perception.

I don't like to dwell here very long, because the purpose in Grease Spot, is understood a bit differently by stepping away from it for a while.

Now check out this....

"Hey Vader. You some kind of child molester? You sound like one. No kidding.

Anybody who draws a moral equivalency between teaching the bible fifteen minutes too long and the crimes Wierwille & Martindale (and their sadistic, self-serving toadies) committed against many Way believers has to be some kind of twisted, amoral freak. That's what you sound like.

I'd say you are a sick puppy Vader, a Wierwillian monstrosity of the first order. I see no evidence of conscience in you. You are primordial slime, oozing into a pool at the base of the scale of human moral evolution.

If I knew where you lived I'd tip the police to search your house and property. And your computer, too. You reek of depravity, even across the internet."

That post is one reason this site doesn't keep some people around very long.

The person who wrote it probably didn't spend more than a minute before their mind raced to write.

Grease Spot is supposed to help people - and I'd like for it too, too. But it's going to get neutralized when users start slinging rude or false statements about well-known cititzens. What a disgrace, really.

People have to take more than a millisecond or a minute before they disgrace themselves or the forum. The forum takes the biggest hit really.

VPW, LCM or TWI are not responsible for all our problems. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. That's part of why this thread. Also, why I just "swoop" into the forum.

The Grease Spot is very unique when read infrequently.

It reminds me of a lady who hired me after lurking in the nation's most used arborist forum. It was interesting to hear her feedback about that website and how she percieved it as a "lurker" or person who was not "one" with the forum's frequent users.

Oh... about sin. I know that actions in the bible were to bring different consequences than some sins. Like execution for murder, but not for lying. But the action of murder goes a lot deeper than just sin.

But within the scope of "sin", I firmly believe that sin is sin. I don't believe that there are big sins or little sins. To me, stealing is sin as much as lying is a sin. So no matter what a leader in a church may have taught or led people to do, I don't see - in the Word - where that sin is higher or lower on the totem pole of our sins.

When I run a "ministry" that tries to get 10+% of your money, assault young women in my motorcoach and put out a class that I claim is the truth that has not been taught since the 1st century, then you can post about my sins

That reminds me of sin rating systems where some sins are rated higher than other sins.

In one way, that may be true, such as a proud look or sowing discord between brethren.

I can see the images of the white shot glasses, but where are the glasses?

With all the posts about TWI, LC Martindale and WP Wierwille, doesn't it make sense to have a thread about us too?

You see, it's one big body in Christ. Every member in particular is as important as another no matter who we are.

Why limit the venting, sharing and information on Grease Spot to just TWI or Dr. Wierwille? Why not share and reveal the stuff about ourselves and each other on here as well?

That would paint a much bigger picture. We all attended and participated in the fellowships. So even if TWI tried to coordinate or manipulate the meetings and fellowships, we are still the ones who taught, the ones who sang, the ones who recruited, the ones who led meetings, the ones who attended.

So I'll go first.

There was a Branch meeting in Portland, Oregon area where I taught. I was asked to limit my teaching to 10 minutes so another person could share. But, I squeezed out near 25 minutes because that's what I felt I needed to get the job done. The next person had to cut thier's short.

Later, I realized that I was selfish, and most of my reason for teaching long was ego. Eventually, I figured out how I could have presented the same material in as little as 10 minutes.

But I was stubborn, egotistical and selfish. Nobody in the audience knew it. But now we know.

Now, who has a little bit of trash about themselves?

I've already heard about VP Wierwille. How about you?

We can't shift all the blame onto a few people. We still carried out many naughty or wrong things because we choose to. Dr. Wierwille could not have been in every state to control and influence everybody. Even his leadership were insufficient. We all did it. We are all responsible. We believed to act as we did as much as VPW believed to act the way he did.

In the late 70s, wierwille's corps meetings and staff meetings at hq were laced with cop-out terminology. He was most venomous when a twi clergyman walked away from "his" ministry.

Long before the days of mark/avoid..........wierwille was planting the seeds of banishment from twi and cursed by God. This cultish doctrine of "standing with only the way ministry till death" was watered and fertilized with out-of-context scripture. In fact, didn't several of those 4th corps men make a pact.....that if one of them should ever decide to leave twi, then it would be better that he just died [and not lose his accummulated rewards]..??

Martindale, the scapegoat for this mark/avoid doctrine in twi........was ONLY following wierwille's teachings. Now granted, he took the doctrine to newer heights (or lows), but nonetheless, he was obedient to what twi's founding president had endorsed!

In every sense of the word, wierwille promoted an "US versus THEM" mindset. Isolation was the name of the game.......and comformity to wierwillisms set the tracks for this train to run. As long as you were ON THE MYSTERY TRAIN.....you were counted among the privileged.

What a ride......?????

Martindale was too blunt and open about it......whereas, Rivenbark has merely adapted to the suble version that wierwille had used. But make no mistake about it........this cult environment is deeply rooted in the in-house terminology, the mindset, the elitism of the faithful remnant, etc.

Wierwille was a cop-out..........he copped-out on the true doctrine of The Mystery, The One Body.

Amazing ?? !!

So you are saying that he was a sinner? That he did something wrong?

What a revelation.

I don't agree with all that Dr. Wierwille said, and certainly he (like you, me and "them") has done things I or we don't know about...

... but what I remember about the man is that his teaching delivered me from 100 more fears and problems than he ever would have caused for me.

To a degree in Grease Spot, and to a big degree in the general populace that's not trinitarian, that's the hazard in making accusations against Dr. Wierwille even if you are absolutely right. The problem lies in the fact that many people were freed from many fears and edified in many ways despite small flaws; despite some secrets they may not have known.

DesertVis,

Many have come to GS and told us that twi reads their sunday script each week......which has to be pre-approved by the board of directors weeks in advance. The consensus is that these "teachings" are booooring......

The new foundational class in March has not generated even a fizzle of excitement. Seems that mum is the order of the day. No one seems to want to share anything.....except that its a mix of veepee's stuff and craig's wap class.

Not too much else at this time.

When I read this, I thought this was an old post from 2003 or something. But then I saw the date.

Inside information I gleaned from someone talking to a teacher for SNS twice in recent years, indicates a much different approach. Whereas previous teaching was constrained, the person teaching was encouraged, much more recently, to basically cut-loose with what they were really inspired to teach.

I know the person whom the information came from and the teacher, very well; so I'm taking it as reliable since no other mouths brought it to me.

That's not to say the TWI is on the high road to success, but I'd toss any notion of read scripts out the window...

...unless someone did an administrative change in the past few months.

According to thier anual reports submitted to the Arizona Corporate Commission, TWI's balance sheet has not changed much in the last three years. It remains right around the 50 million mark. If there is a money crunch, is has been in the last 6 months or so. Too bad we can't see what TWI's actual ABS income is.

TWI generates revenue from 2 basic sources. Interest income on investments and donations (ABS).

ABS is undoubtedly the financial life-blood if TWI. 2000 people giving only $100 per month amounts to about $2.4 million in income per year. 2000 people giving $200 per month is twice that or about 5 million.

Interest income on $25 million ( asuming a nice 8 percent interest rate) amounts to about 2 million. Less than even the most conservative estimate of ABS

When and if ABS ever becomes less than interest income, TWI will really begin to feel the crunch. They will have to make some hard financial decisions. Reduce staff, sell property, etc. OR ....they could go all out and actually try to recruit some new mullets... er followers. (which is not likely to happen)

Maybe they are at that point now. Maybe they see it coming in the future ... we can only speculate.

Apologies? TWI as an organization will never apologize. The BOD, past and present will never apologize.

Even if they did, I doubt that it would make a difference as far as getting anyone to return, especially in the face of declining numbers and revenue.

As for me, I would buy an apology from TWI about like I would buy one from Robert Tilton or Jimmy Swaggert.

If the cost of living, wages and fuel (to a great degree) have risen each of the past few years, would those figures be significant if they remained static?

This was a subject in itself that probably should have alarmed me more about the TWI's ideals or teachings. For the more part, I don't disagree with a great amount of TWI's teaching, but the "Jews" and "Halocaust" teaching seemed very awkward. The evidence, the locations and the number of witnesses is remarkable.

As a group, the proclaimed "Jew" religion is still a worldly counterfiet, but they are people and reality is still reality.

I never saw Schindler's list until 2005, and I thought that the film was a tremendous way to portray the worth of a life over the worth of stuff.

If the witnesses and evidence of the Nazi's persecution of the Jew's is a fake, then we may as well say George Washington never existed either.

You've got it backwards. Only a little of VPW's writing wasn't plagiarized.

Pat, from the evidence I've seen, only a small portion of Dr. Wierwille's books were actually plagiarized. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm open to revising my beliefs.

P.S. I've already seen the evidence from Juedes...which seems to me is only a small portion of the totality of Wierwille's books...if you have more, please feel free to supply it.

I like that posted reply. You don't seem to have jumped the gun or hopped into a band wagon. It reminded me of a verse "Thy words were found and I did eat them, and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of my heart" (punctuation?).

I think many times about OT men who went to the already written word and took possession of the words as their own too.

Nothing under the sun is new.

Unless Dr. Wierwille knowingly concealed that other people had the same teaching as himself, it would not really be stealing or plagerism.

Any teaching that Dr. Wierwilled had, could not have originated with anybody whom he supposedly "stole" it from. Because any valid teaching material would have been in the scripture for hundreds of years. Possibly hundreds of men and women would have recognized and taught portions of it through the centuries without a guarantee of it being recorded.

Many critics that cry "plagerism" spend little time holding the spotlight on the people they think are the ones stolen from. Why don't they take it a step further; take it deeper by another layer? Did it originate with the person whom it was stolen from? Or did the other person plagerize it too.

It can still boil down to the "from one extreme to another mentality".

The important part is not the person with whom a teaching originated, but "what does the word say?" Is it the Word?

It's again the game of putting the focus on a man or woman, and taking the focus off of God. When the focus is taken off God and put on any man or woman, that's an indirect and subtle attack of Satan: a way of gaining indirect worship.

And the "pawns" that carry out that task unknowingly become Satan's little alter boys; Satan's little priests.

Such men and women are then "dished-out" the little reward of feeling important, of apparently looking smart like they have solved some difficult case.

No one's disputing that it's an ekklesia. That's not an opinion. It's an objective fact. My movie mistakes buddies are an ekklesia too.

It's just not a church. Ekklesia does not mean "church" the way we mean it in English.

That's kind of a joke.

dmiller had posted a URL which displayed a picture from my site of a forest. I swapped images in my site, which triggered an image change in that post because it was still pulling from my server under the first image address.

That was my doing - just being pesky.

(Short derail, here.)

Lovely countryside you have there, MDV.

Now --- back to topic. :)

Yes, good country.

By the way, did you know that by hotlinking to that image, every time this thread displays, whether months or years, my server bandwidth gets used up a bit?

It does not copy that image to GSC's server.

That's why I usually put a text hyperlink in posts. It took me a while to find that out myself.

When you get a chance, edit the post so that it hyperlinks to that specific image. Maybe give it name like "mdvaden's Rogue River National Forest Photo". Then folks can click the link.

Thanks.

Now, I needed to borrow the title of master-derailer for a few hours.

When you make it a hyperlink, use the new photo address on my Applegate page. I'm not going to rename it again - the image I swapped will be deleted in a day or two. I just added a "2" to the end of the scenery image and reloaded that webpage to my server.

MDV,

I think if you spend more time here (or anywhere) outside twi, you will see that not everyone heals at the same pace. When I came here, I had the attitude of "It's been ___ many years, get over it!!!" But some hurts were just downright evil. Everyone takes a different path. I think God's grace and mercy allows people to learn from situations in their lives and from their mistakes; however long it takes or however it happens whether we agree with it or not. Some need to touch the hot stove MANY times before they realize it hurts. That does not mean it's wrong, it means they learn at a different level than some. It's not a lower level either. It's just "their" level.

Some paths may be Christian-based. Some are not. I've since learned tolerance and the ability to see through others' eyes (instead of my own)in situations. Not all embrace the Bible becaue they feel they were led astray when it comes to all they were taught in twi. Some don't have the confidence that the Word gives them all they need in life because it didn't prove to be true based on their experiences in twi. I give that to them even though I still believe in the Bible wholeheartedly.

I do believe recovery is the heart intended for GSC participants. Some are just slower at getting there. Some may never get there.

There is comfort to speak your mind about things you didn't dare bring up in twi. There are people who understand what you experienced.

You might be amazed how often often I've popped in and out of here over the years to see who says what, and how long they have posted.

It almost reminds me of growing trees. I can pop in on a neighborhood, forest or grove of trees every few months and still tell if they are declining or improving in their environment by the characteristics. People are so similar, it's amazing. Trees, or people, you don't have to be around them every day to know if there is change. Change is still change. And lack of change is still lack of change.

One interesting thing about some forums is the info space that shows the number of users online and the number of non-members. Everyone who is not logged in should display as a non-member.

One arborist forum I visit has about 20 to 30 non-members reading the forum for every registered logged in member. It's almost amusing.

I actually was hired from a lady in Beaverton, OR who had been lurking in the background for months reading posts. That's why I told some of the tree guys to watch their mouth in the forums regarding vocabulary - they will never know if good customer in online reading.

One thing about healing - "He sent his Word and healed them".

But we are not all Christian. I'm not. A few other's aren't. I'm not part of your church, nor am I here to join a church. Pawtucket has not declared this to be a Christian forum. If he does, then I would leave out of respect for him and the type of forum he wants to run.

I don't see this forum as a type of church or fellowship. I see it a place to speak out, after having been without a voice during my TWI years. Also, it is healing to see that things I thought were wrong and unloving were seen that way by others who experienced similar situations.

Also, I have found that outside of the ex way folk, very few people have any understanding about groups like TWI. They just think you are nuts.

The silversmith's of Ephesus were not christians either, but were still a "church" or "ekklesia". So based on either biblical terminology, or old Greek terminology, you are the participant of a "church" by participation here. You are here for a purpose - a similar purpose..

When I look at this forum and site, I see primarily a Christian base of concept and usership, regardless of the technicality about some non-Christians users..

If this is not intended to be a site of profit to the chiristian church, I'd like someone who represents the site to clearly state such - that it's not a christian site, but just a place for any person whosoever to ramble on about one particular religious group.

I was under the impression that this site was christian owned, maybe I'm wrong. If it is, then this quote from the "who we are" part conveys a meaning to me:

Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees. Our hope is that GreaseSpot Cafe serves as a place where those who have been impacted by The Way can make connections with people and information which will support their particular process of recovery.

If it's a christian operated forum, then people are expected to "recover" if they are Christians capable of renewing their mind, being edified with the Word, and taking on an easier yoke.

If it's not a christian forum, then people will not "recover" - they will merely transform or conform to another fashion of worldly living - if they intend not to believe and become a christian.

That's my perspective as a christian.

If the Way was bad for you, and you are not a christian, great: pick another alternative. I don't call any alternative to the Word "recovery" though. I lived in "recovery" land before I was a christian or knew how to believe the Word, and "recovery" in the world is not any real recovery.

The world's "recovery" is just one cult after another - near-perfect counterfiets that could each have their own forum against them for information. Except that they are so subtle as counterfiets, that they still seem appealing to the non-christians, and to some christians.

1 Corinthians 2:6

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world , nor of the princes of this world , that come to nought:

KJV

Outside of the the christianity of the Word, is the world. And that world has princes and rulers and it's wisdom. It has no recovery. Not God's idea of recovery. Maybe God's idea of a pacifier, but not recovery.

WORDWOLF - Now, then,

can you see the relevance of discussing the past of twi

when looking at its present?

The Word teaches a procedure in the law, proverbs, gospels and epistles, about how certain matters are to be exposed, proved, witnessed to, etc.. I don't think some issues in this forum follow those procedures, wisdom or profit.

WAYFER NOT - You'll have to give me a link to the church you attend if they have a website. We will definitely be looking for churches when we get there.

I won't post their link, but use Google and enter

Jacksonville Applegate Fellowship Coursen

That should bring it up. It's in Ruch with a Jacksonville address.

This would be disconcerting if the GSC was supposed to be a church

or a Christian ministry or something.

The GSC is a church. Just as the church in the house of Aquilla and Priscilla, or the mob of silversmiths in Ephesus are both called an "ekklesia", so likewise are the participants of the GSC an ekklesia in the basics of participation.

Assuming we are all christians, we still all have the ministry of reconciliation. So participating in an on-line forum or going to a restaurant does not remove us from adhering to the doctrine and ministry of the Word. Our conduct and conversation should be the same basic standard wherever we are, if there are enough christians to enable the practices and the doctrines.

So from what the Word teaches, I view the GSC as a church.

Maybe some people LEFT THE WAY, but I sure hope they did not come here thinking that they left the Word. If christians are going to come to this forum and claim they have some kind of profitable information or edification to dish out, I sure hope they plan to do it exactly as God, Jesus Christ or the Apostle Paul taught it should be done.

I won't do anybody and good in here if I think I can add, subtract or change the Word in how I speak, edify, confront, prove or excuse in my conversation.

Many of us left the Way International, but THE WAY still stands firm.

Hey MDV! Welcome back! So am I correct in saying that you left twi?

I really liked the pictures on your website, and my last visit there I saw that you moved south. Ironically my hubby and I plan to move to that nick of the woods in the next year or so.

I'm glad to hear you're doing well. IMHO the churches I've been to since leaving twi had a lot more information and truth that twi ever gave them credit for. It was a hard pill to swallow at first because I believed nobody but twi had the truth. That turned out to be a lie.

That is correct. We quit "attending" the ""fellowships"" last June just before moving to Medford. Actually, we are in Ruch about 13 miles west of Medford, with a Jacksonville address.

I made a page for our new location > scroll down the page; several images:

Area near our new south Oregon home

The page link is also in the small drop-down menu at the bottom of my home page.

Yes, I was impressed at how much some churches have advanced in many areas of the Word and teaching. It might be that the influence of the early Way and people who left it triggered part of that advancement. But now it's fairly irrelevant who caused what as long as truth is taught. I'm amazed at how many websites list E. W. Bullinger's work on figures of speech.

I think we should get off the subject of what Dr.Wierwille did or LCM but we should do as the bible says to do . The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry, when we believe the bible we can do all things. We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it. I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians and see what we learn just from that . Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone

God Bless,

ckmckeon

I like this thread.

For months, I have not been on this forum, not so much that I was still at Way fellowships, but that 1/3 or more of the posts in this forum are worse in nature than current Way problems; and on par with past Way negatives.

We moved to another part of our state. We attend what's mainly a trinity type church, but after I "just happened" to work next door to the ministers house, we had iced tea together; then I learned that he's meek to know more.

The heart and caring in that church exceeds what I saw at much of the Way fellowships during the past decade. I'd rather attend where people lack some knowledge, but have some heart.

The insight of this minister is quite astounding. He, and his dad, teach as good as any minister I've heard in the Way - aside from the few trinity comments.

No wonder people flock to this church. It's congregation is a few thousand, with offshoots routinely occuring to keep the size down. They do have home fellowships and also believe in speaking in tongues for several of the reasons that many of us were taught in the Way.

When I left the last Way fellowship, I confronted the coordinator about the "dry as a bone" nature of the fellowship. Over 6 years in two fellowships, only 3 or 4 people ever visited and nobody new ever stayed. That's the combined effort of 15 to 20 people witnessing (spinning their wheels) over a 6 year period.

And the meeting structure was so redundant that it may as well have been a recording - led to a script it seemed.

It's been challenging living in a new region of the state and starting business again from scratch, but in general, I feel great. My attitude is better, and I feel 10 years younger in my work. I'm more thankful for my work and what I have. And I enjoy the fellowship at the church so much, I go several times a week to hear the Word and visit with people, whereas I had to drag myself to one Way fellowship per week.

I still greatly care for the people who I left behind. They are still my buddies, and I wish no ill or collapse of their situation. If they can rise to higher standards of fellowship - good for them.

On the other hand, I believe there is truth in "what's in a name". The Way name has been seriously damaged, even if it were just for C. Martindale alone. Jumping back and forth between foundational classes was not a rock solid example either. It's a swaying back and forth.

If the Way were to rise to a smooth running ministry according to the Word, I think they would do well to rename the group and file all required legal papers to change corporate entity. The internet is to heavily loaded about the Way International.