Leaderboard

His words absolutely apply to us, except where he was confronting the Israelis about keeping the law. Probably the most relevant thing he said that completely applies to us, was when he boiled down the law to two commandments - love God above all else, and love our neighbor like ourselves. Following those two principles is what the love of Christ is all about, what walking in love is all about. By doing those two things, we fulfill the law in everything we do without concerning ourselves with the letter of the law. The main difference for us is that we are already forgiven for when we fall short, whereas Israel had to keep having those yearly sacrifices. In almost everything Jesus taught, he was showing the underlying meaning of all those laws and holy days. That underlying meaning is what is completely relevant to us today. So, Twinky, good question and good call!

I believe he promoted an 'us versus them' ( mainstream Christianity )mindset, deliberately causing division in the body, giving cause for 'us' to never leave twi because, well, where else would we go ?!

Would somebody please tell this clown a divided highway is a road with a median strip between the traffic going in opposite directions – and personally I think he’s going the wrong way you're going the wrong way

Hey, Rocky...........imho, neither of the two. Wierwille relished in his arrogance of power and control. Embodying an array of narcissistic pathologies, he envisioned his cult organization as the exclamation point in this contorted dispensational-theology, a perverted version of lustful "grace." And, by bringing "his keedz" to the wierwille farmstead, whatever mixture of childhood demons that haunted him........were foisted upon the rest of us in this hall-of-mirrors of his paternal german wierwille lineage. I seriously doubt that few will ever uncover the reasons why wierwille roamed the grounds at night...... That's my $.02

Script for radio commercial Seasoned TWI follower: our teachings are the best thing for depression! New attendee to fellowship: really?!?! Seasoned TWI follower: yup – that’s where I got mine.

Many of us have heard the stories of wierwille's childhood and how he hid in the woods to avoid farm work.........but Dotsie gives us earlier information as well: Mrs. W's book, page 7 ---- "Victor Paul was born to Ernst and Emma Wierwille on December 31, 1916, in the same farmhouse his forefathers had built. He was born the last of seven children: Ella Maria (born in July 1896, lived only two months and twenty-seven days), Lydia (1897), Otto (1900), Sevilla (1904), Harry Ernst (1907), Reuben (1912), and Victor (1916). Although Victor appeared to be a healthy newborn, his mother noticed after a short time that he was not developing as he should. Emma prayed for her baby, as her manner was. The doctor couldn't seem to find a cause for Victor's problem; in those days people just called it "short growth." Ernst and Emma , in seeking help for their baby, called the revered minister of their church, the Reverend L. H. Kunst, to come and water baptize him. This was the best thing they knew to do, and they acted accordingly." Also, there are stories of Lydia, the older sister, needing to "tutor" young victor thru his homework. Victor was a *needy* child........and all this pampering and attention looks like it had long-term effects on his psyche, psychological and social development. And, music was another way for young victor to gravitate to the center of attention.........page 10, "By age thirteen Victor regularly listened to a music radio program over station WLW in Cincinnati, featuring a singer named Bradley Kincaid. At that time Victor's father bought him a twenty-dollar guitar, and Victor began teaching himself to play the guitar so that he could sing and play the country-western songs of his musical hero, 'Bradley Kincaid had the greatest influence in my learning music,' Victor occasionally remarked." "After teaching himself to strum and sing, Victor was frequently invited to perform at box socials. Box socials were social events for the families whose children were attending various one-room schoolhouses. At these occasions there would be a program of entertainment, and then the food boxes were auctioned and sold to the highest bidders. The boxes were attractively decorated, and food was put in them by young girls of datable age. With no one supposedly knowing who packed the individual boxes, the young men would bid and buy them and then have the pleasure of eating the contents with the girls who had prepared them." .......and young victor confessed that one reason he enjoyed church choir was that he could "quit his farm work early on Wednesdays." (p. 11) ......."Since Victor didn't like to ride the bus to high school, he rode into town in bad weather with the neighbor boy in his horse and buggy, and in nice weather he rode his bicycle. During his sophomore year, Victor and Reuben were given a motorcycle to share by their father, and thus began Victor's lifelong romance with motorcycles. As a high schooler, Victor became quite versatile and even did trick riding, such as standing on the motorcycle seat while sailing through town." (p. 16) [Emphasis added] ~~~~~~~~~~ Connecting the dots............wierwille was always pursuing ways to get attention, to showboat, and be in the spotlight. Since he was academically challenged and lazy, so many doors were closed to him in the business and professional sectors.......so he had to look elsewhere. Thus, he spearheaded his efforts into a seminary whereby he could grasp the attention of a "captive audience" and the adulation that he craved. The seeds of his narcissistic personality disorder were growing. ........after seminary, preaching in a rural church wasn't enough. ........embarking on his own to teach b.g.'s class, wasn't enough. ........teaching class after class to church people, wasn't enough. ........filming the pfal class in 1967 was STILL not enough. ........power-grabbing Heefner/Doop movements and young firebrands, was the start. ........young firebrands begat more young firebrands, THAT started the fire ablaze. ........wierwille claimed the spotlight, but HE WAS NEVER THE TRUE SPOTLIGHT. ........the youth, and the zeal of life, were.

In December 1957.....when wierwille started his independent undertaking of The Way, Inc., he was stumbling into the unknown. For 10 years (1957-1967), wierwille drove from city to city teaching B.G. Leonard's class, The Gifts of the Spirit, to mostly church people. By teaching 9-12 classes a year, wierwille was reaching an estimate of 200-275 new people each year. Yet, in 1960......the Troy/Piqua followers wanted vpw to move his operation from Van Wert to their area, NOT the wierwille farm. So, when Vic and Harry decided that the wierwille homestead was going to be the new headquarters of twi........a Troy/Piqua exodus was their response. Wierwille ran class after class in the 60's..............and the percentages of who committed to wierwille's "ministry" were dismal. Notice: Neither vpw or mrs. w document any signs, miracles or wonders from God during these early-to-mid 1960s. They have to reach back to the India trip or Van Wert days to fabricate anything of substance that would indicate the working of holy spirit. Seems like 1960-1967.........wierwille was in the wilderness [until the filming of pfal]. The filming of pfal in 1967 was wierwille's attempt to stay relevant. Wierwille NEEDED a steady stream of money (tithing)......or else, failure was imminent. This new pfal class was designed with a subliminal, subterfuge agenda.......to strip new students from their family, church, higher education and community and set up a new cult family. All of the support systems were to be undermined and eliminated.....and replaced. No, wierwille did not have some devious master plan behind this........just a narcissistic appetite that needed fed and the exploitation of the youth was a means to that end. Was wierwille planting a garden? Nope. Wierwille was planting a cult........one deceptive weed at a time.

I think a lot of folks - once they get some life experiences under their belt have a pretty good idea of their own core values and belief system; but maybe most folks don’t get into splitting hairs and all kinds of in-depth-thinking-Bible-nerd stuff; but in general, people are curious and like to explore things even if it’s just for fun; I’m that way…and if I’m checking out something new – I like to try and find guidelines or get some idea of the lay of the land…as you mentioned PFAL – that was like that for me…maybe a cobbled together patchwork – but it was somewhere to start for me… Yeah I understand what you’re saying…the whole social media scene is like a bizarro-world to me…everyone has something to say and they have to share it with others…or the living-vicariously-machine will stop running. On NPR I heard an interview with Bo Burnham (writer & director for the movie “Eighth Grade”) – commenting on folks who thrive on that whole social media buzz he said something like “can you enjoy living your life if there was no audience?”…so yeah I hear what you’re saying about too many alternative thoughts out there…fortunately we have the freedom to pick and choose what we want to focus on…I love the Internet for the vast resource of info on so many things…I hate the Internet for the vast resource of scams, cons, pseudo-knowledge and the goofballs that are smitten with their own image on the Internet.

This was a topic that was always puzzling to me. Mostly because I would watch what people who other people told me were these "gift ministries" and see what they did. What I observed was that first of all there was this really cool sounding expanded definition of these terms in Paul's letters that the Veepster came up with. Next they are compiled into this really cool list of 5, which appears nowhere as a list in the Bible, but people like lists, so hey. Plus 5 is a really great number. You can make little objects with 5 sides, like say little pentagon figures, which translate nicely into stained glass windows, decals, and hockey puck like objects which can be placed on people's desks to really impress others, along with a miniature bronze of VP. I mean Walt Disney didn't even accomplish that!!!! Now as I've started reading the Bible more in context, and less with a puffed up head, I see these titles which the Way handed out like the Queen of England does Baron titles with a little word of prophecy or a "reverend" word causing endless antics in people like you read about with Jesus 12 apostles. The "sons of thunder" were always measuring something, that's for sure. However, as you might guess, my views on this are more towards the interpretation that as Jesus Christ my Risen and Ascended Lord and Savior moves about and energizes His Body in the day, it is not in the fashion of the ego combined with the pyramid scheme, speaking to "right reverend so-and-so, the Limb coordinator of the great state of Confusion". No, people just help other people and God energizes and Christ brings the fire. But as a little fun, I thought I would list out all of the Way "Gift Ministries" and what I observed about the people that "had" or "operated" them: Apostle - Pimp Daddy. Owns multiple cars, motorcoaches, motorcycles, airplanes, sexual partners. Brings "new light" to a generation, and if that light in the eye is evil then how great is that evil. Prophet - @sshole Evangelist - Field Mage - once got someone to "take the class" in the 70s now organizes "witnessing charts" so everyone else can do the same now Pastor - the trickle down gift. If the "prophecy" flows down past #1 - #3 and didn't stick to you, then this is probably you. The average good joe "gift ministry" Teacher - never met anyone who admitted to having this one, it was kind of swept under the carpet. So according to the teaching of the display in the Houston art gallery "Complex 3", we are to dress in athletic rainbow colored tights to identify ourselves as the non-reptilian team, and lead others in synchronized dance so they too can avoid the lizard-people humping in the middle of the floor. What say you Spotters??? Gift Ministries ???????? !!!!!!!!! ?????????????

Thinking over my navigation of a personal journey I wanted to make mention of a change in how I usually approach the lofty, heavy, “spiritual “, and - dare I say it - existential concerns. It has been a shift from using a theological approach to more of a philosophical approach. To me “philosophical “ means more than just the study of knowledge, reality , and existence. It also refers to my attitude toward the difficult, unfathomable, mystifying or disappointing issues...basically I try to be patient and unruffled through it all...accepting the way things are and the idea that I may never find a definitive answer on many things. Having dabbled in theology for a long spell I’ve noticed my tendency - when having a strictly theological approach - that one way or another I could squeeze some answers out of the Bible - which is indeed a very malleable resource. At this stage of my journey if i had to list my most essential criteria for interpreting a passage of the Bible - it would be : Point 1: What is the most obvious meaning of the text? Point 2: Does it make sense to me? Now I don’t mean to oversimplify this - for me point 1 takes into account biblical languages / syntax / historical, cultural & geographical context, etc. - I did say at this stage of my journey - so by now I’ve learned some of the nuts & bolts of the biblical data. Point 2 - i consider more than the few systematic theologies and commentaries I’ve studied on the particular passage - I look at all the details from point 1 and see if it resonates with me as far as experiences in my life - can I wrap my mind around it ? Does it satisfy some question I have? Is it something I need to do ...or stop doing? Can I connect or relate to it somehow? Having said all that I should also mention there’s a lot of things in the Bible that still elude me...intellectually, where do you go if your answer to point 1 is “i don’t know” or “not sure”? I don’t know ...maybe speculate...philosophize...not sure. and what if your answer to point 2 is “nope”? I am not a theologian and don’t feel the pressure or see the need to formulate an answer for everything; I’m perfectly happy being a long-and-winding-roads-scholar - enjoying this strange journey called life.

So as an individual functioning, you would not tend to notice in what area your talents are showing results? Or are you saying this is a Zen kind of thing? Just stay your mind on stringing those chairs, and people walking by will know you're a pastor? People with talent who brag about it are intolerable in any field, sport, group, or sense. Those with talent who display humility are usually universally loved.

(blushes again) Thank you, Skyrider. Yep. If it's "you" that got hurt, it is a big deal. "You," basically are all you've got. Yep again. I've posted this before: I was so desperate and destroyed that I was prepared to crawl across broken glass to get back to TWI after ten years in the wilderness. I got on the net to find their zip code. The first result for TWI was - GreaseSpot Cafe! I looked. I was appalled, horrified. And ultimately healed. My grovelly letter of apology for my imagined sins never got written. I thank God for Saint Pawtucket and this place.

There was an episode of "Gilligan's Island" where the Professor did "word association" with Thurston Howell III. At every word, the first thing that came to Thurston's mind was "money." "Hot." "Money." "Cold." "Money." (Until he finally gave a different answer...) "Child." "Tax deduction." lcm had this fixation that became an obsession with homosexuality. Eventually he started seeing it everywhere. So, "What was the original sin?" "Homosexuality/" "What is the worst sin?" "Homosexuality." "Why did we have problems with this program that's tanking?" "Homosexuality." "How can we make twi better?" "Remove homosexuality." "What's twi's biggest problem right now?" "Homosexuality." "What's the capital of Paraguay?" "Homosexuality." "Who was the 16th US President?" "Homosexuality." "What do you see when you look at art?" "Homosexuality." I don't think it was a matter of plagiarism, as much as it was playing a piano that only had one key.

AOS has to be one of the great highlights of TWI’s hypocrisy...the production was to reveal the wiles of the devil and how a believer can be strong and stand up against all the deceptions and temptations...meanwhile the “star of the show” believer boy (craig) is boinking the “wrong seed” chick...oh no, Obi-Wan we lost another to the dark side!

Why didn't Walter Cummins teach the class instead of VPW? Wierdwillies arrogance would not allow him

I'm not so certain I really favor that "translation"... I think it could be understood a couple other ways... According to "Elliot's Commentaary" it reads: Thus, the emphasis, and the point is not as to marking what is "theopneustos", but that whatever is "theopneustos" has a purpose.. The question of what is "theopneustos" is still left open. Another view from Greek, is that there are 2 things noted.. Both are types of "writings" - (graphe), as in "Every God inspired and profitable writings are for doctrine, for reproof, ....." Again, nothing is being labelled as "theopneustos", but whatever is, along with "other" profitable" writings are once again for a reason...

I was recently reading II Timothy 3:16 in the American Standard Version (note, not the NEW American Standard Version, which I prefer). I found it interesting that they worded it: "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness." So in this translation (and not in many others), the impression is not that "All scripture is inspired of God," which is nonsense*, but rather that all scripture inspired by God is useful, implying that there are scriptures not inspired by God. And here we get to what I think is a significant point (which you folks have been raising) about "semantics." *That is, what do the Bible's writers mean when they use the word "scripture." I don't think Paul was referring to his own writings when he talked about scripture being "God-breathed." The preceding verse (context) talks about the sacred writings his readers would have known from the time they were children. THOSE are the "scriptures" of verse 16, not the letter he was writing to them at the time! A few years back I started a thread about a letter Chris Geer wrote to his followers in the USA (Geer was running the show in Scotland at the time of the massive 1989 TWI split). I called the thread "The Epistle of Chris Geer to the Americans." I'll never forget the reaction: people accused Geer of being so arrogant and narcissistic that he would write an actual epistle! The nerve! Meanwhile, that wasn't Geer's word. It was mine. And I was using an old-timey word in jest, because as you all know, an "epistle" is just a letter. That's it. There's nothing magical in the word "epistle" that makes it "The Word Of God Uh." Same with the Bible's use of "scripture." It just means "writings." We can't assume every time we encounter that word that the writer (or author, or Author, or whatever you want to put as the word there -- lol) is making some ontological statement about the nature of the scribbling. Not all scripture is God-breathed, obviously. Whether everything written in the Bible is God-breathed is for believers to debate, discuss and decide (naturally, I contend none of it is, but that comes with the territory these days). But I don't think it's appropriate to cite II Timothy 3:16 as evidence that the writer of II Timothy 3:16 believed II Timothy 3:16 is The Word Of God Uh. That, as others have pointed out, would be quite circular.

Twinky.......I totally agree with you on that aspect. In the wider Christian world, vpw was nonexistent. He plagiarized other men's work and cherry-picked scripture to twist and plant a hybrid crop of wierwille-doctrinesque theology. In terms of large-scale, wierwille wasn't even a pimple on a flea on an elephant. But..........as you so elaborated above, the damage this cult did to one's heart, soul and mindset was extensive. Ten years in a daze......confusion, hurt, broken, anguish.....is a swath of life that you should have not entered. THAT is why I believe in the mission of Greasespot Café: to tell the other side of the story. This site may not be a Christian-site......but there is sure a lot of compassion and healing going on. What is the worth of a soul? We know from scripture the answer to that. How many hundreds, thousands even, have come to GSC to glean what they needed to be delivered from burdens, wounds or a broken heart? As WordWolf notes often.........the fact that scores and scores of people have left GSC is great! They've moved on. They are the success stories. This site continues to sound and expound a warning shot to those who were sucked into the vortex of a cult, or might be. Our purpose is clear. Our results are profound. I like being a part of this G-team. God Bless you, Twinky.........I find your life's story compelling and marvel at your incredible ministry of service to others. You are a gem. Your deep compassion and fortitude to "hit the streets" to minister to others is remarkably inspiring. You are truly one of God's treasured servants.

Exactly................"people wouldn't stick." This is well documented in Mrs. W's book as she details a list in 1958, 1959 and 1960 of wierwille's pfal classes in various cities. When you consider the hundreds of people who sat thru his classes each year (1957-1967)........the question becomes, "What happened to all these people who, having heard these truths taught live by Dr. Wierwille (cough, cough), were supposed to commit their lives, effort and money toward word-over-the-world twi servitude?" Apparently, they didn't see -- 1) power or 2) abundant living.........as highlighted in its promotion. So......when vpw films the class in 1967, what does he do? He adds and augments certain preemptive strikes against the denominational churches. Wierwille not only wants his new students to sit thru his series of classes, but to stick with him. He demonizes church elders and their motives.......to guilt and shame anyone who, having taken pfal, would even think of going back to their church. With each passing year, the rhetoric escalates.........until vpw and others were teaching that denominational church hierarchy have the seed of the serpent. Egads! The level of hyperbole and accusations was absurd. Then, once you attend the "advanced class".......you hear about the Illuminati, the Thirteenth Tribe, Marxist Minstrels, None Dare Call It Conspiracy, Seed of the Serpent, etc......you're indoctrinated into the inner sanctum and servitude. Add......a year or two of going WOW, or Corps Training and you become absorbed into the cult blob. Leaders over leaders over leaders......each following orders of next higher (or lower) unit. As a leaf on a mighty tree (LOL).....you give respect to the twig leader, branch, limb, and trunk leader. Seems like more and more.......you are getting closer and closer to the dirt. Then, work on staff AT THE ROOT.........now, you've gone underground. Wowsers!!! It seems clear to me that wierwille took stock of all those pfal students LEAVING HIM IN THE 60s.............and struck out on a subterfuge agenda. What was this new hidden objective? To entrap new students into his organization by destroying their old support systems of family, religion and community........and erect a new system, a spiritual family that replaced their "earthly family." In essence: A Cult. Wierwille needed to separate these young students from their support systems for longer and longer periods of time. Not just a three week class.......else, they go back to friends, family and work/education. Start summer camps......like the churches do, but for the purposes of building an *us versus them* mentality. Later, add WOW program......and then, the corps program. The youth are malleable and fall prey to indoctrination. The corps program was a multiplier in wierwille's climb to power: 1) Isolation of these "training centers" gave twi the availability, time and power over the individual without outside interference, and 2) Conformity to be obedient and follow "elder" corps established a pecking order that permeated the campus and fed the egos of even the most inept "elder" corps. In the end..........it all came tumbling down. Lots of reasons, I suppose......but the youth grew up and real life responsibilities, decisions and motivations were staring them in the face. Who has the means to give "volunteer services" to twi for a lifetime? Why? Why is this opportunistic cult hoarding millions? Where is this power and abundance that wierwille taught? Everyone is selling soap........and it's all being washed down the drain. The whole damn thing was a scam........as wierwille took every opportunity to advance himself into the spotlight. It's a scam...........and that's why "people don't stick." .

I like to listen to different Bible teachers on You-tube and read books about the Bible from different scholars. There are many many people who have studied the Bible for years and have a lot to share. It now amazes me that I accepted one class as the final say on God's Word. We were programmed that we were not to consider any teachings from any other source other than VP or PFAL or the higher-ups in TWI. Blows my mind now that I look back on it. We were led to think that we were so special and we had the Truth, unlike all the other schlubs in the body of Christ who didn't have the knowledge that WE had. Oh yes, we were SO special. And I would like to add that sometimes these Bible teachers don't agree. Does that mean I have to close myself off? The worst that can happen is I have to know I don't know about something.

Poltergeist !

Why pay for insurance when you can pay for a class that will make you think you don’t need it.

IIRC, the premiere of Spirits In The Athletes, was Pentecost, 1985. That was roughly 2 or 3 weeks after dictor croaked in May of that year, during the Annual Corpse Placements Meetings at HQ, which, THANKFULLY, the forehead barely attended cuz he was busy dancing and screwing the dancers. Most fun placements evah! Dictor was dead, and King Okie was owning every woman in his kingdom! I was “awarded” the prize for “Most lewd and lascivious comments” ever spoken at a placements meeting! LOL! I don’t think that’s necessarily anything to brag about, but it sure was funny. Pat Lynn put on a little birthday -party-like “ceremony” complete with candles-on-cupcakes, and those little cone-shaped party hats. LOL! IIRC, SITA, premiered on the Saturday of Pentecost weekend, 1985. There was this yuuuge after-party in the OSC. Da forehead wore a red velvet, black-collared smoking jacket with a belt ala Hugh Hefner, and allowed a receiving line of adoring fans to congratulate him. I got all the the region boys to the front of the line so we could be the first ones out. We spent the rest of the night at the WOODEN SHOE INN in Minster, chowin’ down on the best fried chicken and ice cold beer I have ever had! it was a total complete and total farce! But, EVERYONE, most especially Don and Howard was very happy to waste all that money just to keep the dope out of the day-to-day running, planning, thinking, and outreach of the minustray, which required higher functioning morons. LOL!............Peace all.

Nice set of buns, lol

You...you mean the snow on the gas pumps story wasn't real???? Well, shut the front door. Next thing you'll be saying is that his doctorate was phony. Ladies and gentlemen, it's been a DISGRACE to have been in this fellowship this evening!! :lol: