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  1. The more I consider these myriad of tactics, the more examples come to mind. Understandably, the more one is isolated and immersed in this realm of control.... the higher the levels of abuse. That's why the corps program was the ultimate stronghold wierwille utilized to attain his narcissistic power and control over others. Everything about the corps program gave wierwille and corps coordinators access to twist and mold young minds. When you signed on the line to "be corps"... you entered the door of bait-and-switch. Generic terminology of the corps commitment was an accelerated *mission creep* bonanza. Young, committed minds surrounded by cunning leaders and peers was pressurized. Those who fell short were publically castigated for all to witness. The cult held absolute control over the daily schedule and could change it at any time. Keeping corps off-balance stripped individuals from any control over their daily lives or future. Edgy and dangerous exercises.... colon cleanse, hitch-hiking at dark, safety at work projects. Death came early for some....even then, wierwille did not adjust or change course. Some young corps girls were selected for wierwille's sexual delight and predatory nature. Resistance to wierwille's "advances" was enough to give her the bum's rush off twi-property. Corps were disposable. Dreams of "serving God" were dashed by one act of disobedience. Isolation, immersion, idolization breeds a world of absolute control over others. Twisted teachings like "the lock box" and "salt covenants" were weapons of control. Corps were used as slave-labor at Camp Gunnison and Tinney, New Mexico (and roa). L.E.A.D. replaced T.F.I. in California. Wierwille stripped John Svmmerville of his authority. Purging those who challenged vpw was evident throughout twi's history. Wierwille did NOT lead by example.... he flaunted his position to smoke and drink at will. By 1977, 1978.... dozens of elder corps were moving towards the exit doors. What's a cult leader to do? Change? LOL. Nope, move younger guys into those vacated positions. Damage control, damage control. Twi was a one-trick pony. Decades of carnival tactics for 8 years (1973-1981) of power and control. Even when transitioning to lcm and stepping down (1981).....wierwille detested giving away power. Wierwille wanted his son, Don, to lead the ministry.... but Don's teaching prowess was lame. So, martindale was chosen because he ALWAYS obeyed wierwille. Nothing about being God's servant. Twi was built on a man of the flesh and remains ungodly to this day.
    5 points
  2. I copied the emotion graph and wanted to comment on how it made me aware of the wide range of emotions we as humans are capable of. A little off topic but looking at it reminds me that we were taught not to feel them. I’m so glad I can claim my humanity and not feel condemnation that I am being earthly and leaning on sense knowledge when I feel what I feel.
    4 points
  3. You're describing confabulation via confirmation bias. You literally decide anything you want, because of your narcissistic paranoia that your adversary is "out there", and decide that whatever you like is evidence. That's how revelation you describe works. You've given no test that might disprove your claims. You've lowered the basketball hoop and invented a new move. Growth does not happen in the real world without repeated failure and pain. You've provided a painless safe-space for yourself. Enamoured by the faux-intellectual reasoning, you're blinded to the real world. When tested against reality you can't see failure. You live in a fantasy. Your research produces nothing of value to anyone but yourself. When VPW received "revelation" he was lying to cover his own cowardness. He was too weak to compete against more competent individuals. So he used "revelation" to f_ck with the heads of overly trusting others. His leverage did not stand on its own. And neither does yours.
    4 points
  4. ********* One could write a thesis paper on twi's tactics. I always find it interesting to study wierwille and the timeline of twi's "explosion of growth" between the years 1973-1980. As wierwille accumulated power and control over others, his tactics were tethered to two uncompromising positions: 1) the pfal class, and 2) the way corps program. Claiming spiritual authority from God, wierwille was relentless in subjugating his followers with tactics that can easily be categorized as emotional, psychological and spiritual abuse. Some cult experts have labeled these tactics as total thought reform of the individual. Wierwille spent years traveling the highways teaching a plagiarized version of pfal [stolen from Bullinger] trying to convert and recruit church people to join his ministry. It wasn't until he locked into "Family Camps" and targeting the youth that gave his efforts momentum that unleashed the 1970's decade of control. In studying these tactics, one can easily identify wierwille's narcissistic methods that are found in cult leaders the world over. Established spiritual authority.... called of God to lead others to enlightened truths. Build a framework of stair-climbing steps to attain this enlightened status. Isolation of the group from the evil, outside world. Us versus them. Allow enablers into the inner-circle. These "yes-men" will protect your flank. Travel with an entourage. It exudes an elevated level of importance and authority. A series of purges. Keep people off-balance and second-guessing themselves. ....... Load the language with words and phrases that only insiders understand. Anyone who bucks authority must be shunned and/or purged. Public character assassinations of one's reputation is a powerful weapon. Labeling one "possessed" scares the bejesus out of followers. Keeps them in line. Move in herds. Keep people in groupthink mode, no room for individualism. ....... Demand the tithe/abs to be in fellowship with God. Keep followers in meager, dependent state. Establish an outreach program that is "reaching the world with God's Word." Again, load the language making God's Word synonymous with pfal. Build the perception that hq is *home* further breaking ties with parents, family. Annual pilgrimage to hq's rock of ages is demanded. Strengthening bond. ....... Establish a two-tier spiritual authority structure. Way Corps are your "spiritual leaders." It's all a ruse.....because corps are NOT leaders, they're sycophant followers (suck-ups). Corps were subjected Stockholm Syndrome tactics and abuse others when given chance. Everything in twi became a herd-fest. Major events were an exercise of control. As followers grew older, married, had kids and responsibilities....reality broke these tactics. ....... Wierwille was infuriated that "his kids" were abandoning ship....thus, the corps letters. By hiding behind a cover of false humility (woe is me).... vpw was a huckster to the end. Not once, did I ever see wierwille do a "God-revelation" act to benefit the people. Hiding in the shadows, he built his mystique with enablers who amplified "his greatness." In the light of day, wierwille was nothing more than a country-bum fraudster. ....... In the end, his "kingdom" came crashing to the ground for everyone to see. Rival opportunists have been trying to mimic his tactics ever since. Irony of ironies that Mrs. Wierwille's book exposes vp's serial plagiarism and tactics. Twi continues its grip on the millions that were accumulated in the 70s. Only by isolating itself can twi continue to lay claim to its self-referential "greatness." ....... Peace to all who find the exit doors.
    4 points
  5. I’m here because I received a similar card in the mail today. The front with “Time to come home?” features a garden with fountains I can’t remember the name of at HQ, and the back says “Home is where the word lives. Come and see it’s a new day at The Way.” Yeah, no thanks. Before we left in ’94 after 10+ years, they said “we had to be strong to hang with the ministry.” No, we had to be strong to LEAVE that manipulative cult, as it was almost our entire social circle, besides the whole “grease spot” brainwashing. Thank GOD we didn’t ditch our friends and family outside The Way as instructed, or we’d have had nobody left when we exited the ministry. Yes, we’re thankful for the Word we learned, but the seemingly overnight 180° turn from “nothing is mandatory, but that nothing is mandatory” to “you WILL go to twig three days each week, you Will attend Sunday night service once a month, you WILL get the magazine and the Sunday night service tapes, you WILL sign up for the advanced class,” etc., etc., made us highly suspicious. The final straw was telling my wife she wasn’t welcome in the ministry anymore as she wasn’t “advancing fast enough,” while I would be allowed to stay. This would have effectively ended our 19-year marriage, so I told them right then and there “nope, we’re out of here” and never looked back. The fact they regarded her advancement in the ministry more important than our “’till death do us part” commitment spoke volumes. Come back to The Way? I wouldn’t urinate on it if it was on fire.
    4 points
  6. Every once in a while, in society and here, there's someone who engages in this specific fallacy. "I must be right because I'm in the minority." "I must be right because lots of people keep insisting I'm wrong." "If I wasn't right after all, people wouldn't be trying to say I'm wrong!" Since this comes up, I thought I'd give this its own thread. It's a logical fallacy, which is not unknown among ex-twi, and this specific one is the private turf of the self-appointed experts, the self-proclaimed voices in the wilderness, the ones sure they are MORE right BECAUSE people refute them all the time. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/logical-take/202006/the-galileo-gambit-and-appealing-ignorance The Galileo Gambit and Appealing to Ignorance The fact that you are probably wrong, doesn’t mean you’re right. When pseudo-scientists have been bested by the solid evidence and careful research of actual accredited experts (aka authorities on a subject), they will almost inevitably pull out this quote from Galileo: "In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." In their mind, they are like Galileo—the lone voice of reason, standing up for the truth against an onslaught of ignorant authorities. And this, more than anything else, in their minds, proves that they are right: “The mainstream laughed at Galileo when he said the sun was the center of the solar system; that flew against conventional wisdom too, but that turned out to be right. So my theory is right too.” But there’s a name for this: The Galileo Gambit—and it is a recognized and well-known fallacy. The Galileo Gambit The Galileo Gambit engages in many mistakes, but the main one is this: It’s a faulty analogy. The fact that two persons have one thing in common does not mean that they have everything in common—or even, another thing in common. Yes, the authorities thought Galileo was wrong, and they also think that you are wrong—but the fact that he turned out to be right doesn’t mean that you are. As Carl Sagan once put it: “The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” And for every genius who bucked the system and turned out to be right, there are a thousand that bucked the system and turned out to be wrong. If you disagree with the experts, statistically speaking, you are much more likely to be one of the Bozos. And disregarding all the times those who disagreed with the authorities turned out to be wrong, makes one guilty of even more fallacious reasoning: confirmation bias, availability error, and denying the evidence. Authority vs. Humble Reasoning With that clearly laid out, one might wonder why Galileo said what he said. Why would he think that the findings of one lone person could overrule expert consensus? Well, is that really what he meant? Let’s look at that quote again, and concentrate on a couple of words. In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Notice that he doesn’t say a single person can override the informed consensus of experts. He said it can override the authority of many. But what authority would Galileo have been talking about? Who said he was wrong? It wasn’t scientists. It was the church! He's talking about religious authorities. So what he is saying is that a bunch of people claiming something on authority alone (i.e., without evidence, because of tradition, or “because the Bible says so”) is not worth much. It can be easily overridden. What’s more, he’s not saying that the fact that one lone person merely disagreeing with the authorities is a good reason to think that one lone person is right. He is saying that a lone person’s humble reasoning is better than mere authority. Authority alone cannot outweigh the evidence of just one person who presents a good and careful scientific argument. In the same way, however, he would undoubtedly agree that the humble reasoning of just one individual cannot outweigh the humble reasoning of 100, especially if they are all checking each other’s work for errors (i.e., peer review). Indeed — what could be less humble than thinking that you, alone, know better than all the experts who have dedicated their lives to studying a topic? So a lone genius can overturn the consensus if the consensus is just based on tradition, or authority, but not if that consensus was reached through the long arduous careful process known as the scientific method." (For the curious, it's a good article, and it does continue.)
    3 points
  7. As a different direction with respect to all of the philosophical angles on the law of believing, I am considering Jesus teachings in Matt 6:27 “which of you by taking thought can add one cubit to his stature?” Jesus contrasted all the wasted mental effort in the “law of believing” type of magical mental focus and instead told them to trust God and enjoy life and they would be taken care of. He highlighted the fruitlessness of whatever form of mental thought game a person plays actually changing physical reality.
    3 points
  8. I knew someone who died trying to make it work. Then, the ministry blamed him for not having big enough believing. He left behind a wife and 2 young kids.
    3 points
  9. Cults, ideological tyrants, social media, abusive relationships, seem to all have cluster B behaviors and therefore thinking behind them as a common denominator. In that way yes TWI can decouple. VPW is often described as a Malignant Narcissist and therefore traits can be extracted and practiced because VPW did not write the book on Cluster B. He is one of millions of examples. However, if TWI is tied to an origin story involving snow up their gas hump, it may be unlikely to decouple.
    3 points
  10. Living Colour, "Cult of Personality." "Look in my eyes, what do you see? The cult of personality. I know your anger, I know your dreams. I've been everything you wanna be. I'm the cult of personality. Like Mussolini and Kennedy, I'm the cult of personality, The cult of personality, The cult of personality. Neon lights, Nobel Prize When a mirror speaks, the reflection lies. You won't have to follow me, Only you can set me free. I sell the things you need to be. I'm the smiling face on your TV. I'm the cult of personality. I exploit you, still you love me. I tell you one and one makes three. I'm the cult of personality. Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi, I'm the cult of personality, The cult of personality, The cult of personality. Neon lights, Nobel Prize When a leader speaks, that leader dies. You won't have to follow me, Only you can set you free. You gave me fortune. You gave me fame. You gave me power in your God's name. I'm every person you need to be. I'm the cult of personality."
    3 points
  11. I think when VPW taught that sincerity is no guarantee for the truth that is what they call a “Freudian slip”.
    3 points
  12. I'd like to reboot the thread, maybe make it a little less Mikish and a little more what were we talking about again? No longer having a stake in the "rightly-divided" answer opens up various avenues of exploration. I've seen you guys discussing this "absent Christ" issue for years now, and I honestly don't even remember the various things I've said about it. Is it possible, in my desire to find fault with VPW, that I hopped on the "how dare he say Christ is absent" bandwagon? It would have been easy. CES (STFI, John Lynn, Schoenheit, et al) criticized the "absent Christ" doctrine without overly criticizing Wierwille. I know I've recently said some variation of the following, and I stand by it: To some extent, Christ MUST be absent, or anticipating his return would be rather pointless. At the last supper, Jesus says do this "in remembrance" of me. You don't "remember" something that's present. You recognize it. You acknowledge it. You don't remember it. Christ must in some way be absent. But let's go a little further (as I believe some of you have). The Bible does not speak of a "return" of Christ, or a "second coming." The word translated "coming" is better translated "presence," as in, it's his presence, not his return, that is the hope of the Christian. Now you may say, same thing. And I may agree, except God (or Paul, or whoever chose the word paraousia) has a purpose for everything he says... So if your hope is in his return (Biblically, his presence), then the current state of affairs must necessarily imply, in some manner, his absence. So I don't think the "absent Christ" is unBiblical at all. It's the present Christ that needs defending, for if he is currently present, how can his presence be your hope? And yes, I understand there are ways in which he is present as well. They've been articulated effectively. The problem, as I see it, is this need to have one answer be correct and the other incorrect, when the Bible clearly teaches both. He is present with us by way of (the H)holy (S)spirit [I am not taking sides on that one]. He is present with us in prayer. He is the Word, and as such is present where his word is taught. "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is a problematic statement, but not because it posits an absent Christ. The Bible posits an absent Christ. "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is problematic because it doesn't. At least not completely. No one thing takes the place of the absent Christ. But all these things together do. The Word. The spirit. Fellowship. Prayer. Love. Mercy. The manifestation of the spirit. The fruitage of the spirit. YOU. YOU take the place of the absent Christ. Isn't God wonderful?
    3 points
  13. He vanished into a cloud. Or behind it. We think it was a cloud. Or fog. Maybe. https://bigthink.com/13-8/limits-of-knowledge-big-bang-origin-life/
    3 points
  14. "Someday we’re going to find a manuscript that verifies this." "“We probably won’t find a manuscript in my lifetime that verifies this, but my spiritual awareness tells me what the original has to say.” Well, most people will look at this, if not through the lens of adoration of the speaker, and say that this is obviously an attempt by a person to disregard all the available evidence and claim something for which no evidence exists, allowing them to make ridiculous claims that contradict Scripture. When lcm said this stuff, his go-to phrase for pulling stuff out of his sit-upon was "You'd know this if you worked The Word on this." In vpw's case, it was the manuscripts that nobody's ever seen that somehow still support vpw's claims even if they have been read by nobody and there's no proof they even exist. Their existence is all predicated on the "spiritual awareness" of a plagiarizing rapist who lied and claimed to hear from God, who plagiarized the works of many others and still flubbed it often, who listened to conspiracy nuts then turned around and reported what they said and pretended it was Divine Revelation that told him, and got his "doctorate" from a degree mill. Once all that is known, what kind of credibility does the speaker have? That's right- none at all. It was all smoke and mirrors. But when we didn't know any better, that nonsense played a LOT better because we trusted someone untrustworthy and thought we could trust him. "I heard a complaint, circa 1977-78, about the research department from 2 associates or members of that department, just a month or two before they were kicked out of the 7th Corps. They told me that VPW was manipulating things and not doing valid research. " Sure sounds like what was just documented. It's remarkably straightforward. He appealed to the authority of what was written in IMAGINARY DOCUMENTS. That's "not doing valid research" to say the least. (To say the most, it's champion-level Bullshirting to pull that and get away with it.) "It all depends on what the goal of the research is. (A) If the goal is to FIND truths not yet known, using only methods of the senses and logic, then the known manuscripts must be recognized as the only evidence available to work with. Everything must be built on that known evidence." That's called "RESEARCH." That's how RESEARCH WORKS. "(B) If the goal is to VERIFY truths already known spiritually, then unknown manuscripts may be sought in that verification. Of course, method B is not recognized by academia at all. The possibility of spiritually knowing anything like this is denied there totally. In other words the students of the Bible forbid the Author from giving revelation to explain the Bible. They want to do it all themselves." There's no demonstrated difference between "truths already known spiritually" and "outright bullshirt" here, neither is there one in practice. vpw was looking for imaginary manuscripts that matched what he CLAIMED to know, and is ASSUMED he knew "spiritually" because he implied that, insinuated that, and (rarely) actually said it outright. All of it rests entirely on the credibility of the claimant- and he was proven to be a liar, fraud, plagiarist..... Academia doesn't recognize IMAGINARY MANUSCRIPTS. Nor should it. How would you feel if someone announced that everything you believed was now specifically disproven and forbidden due to an IMAGINARY MANUSCRIPT that MUST contradict you? Academia is based on what can actually be shown and entered into evidence, not things IMAGINARY. Revelation is fine, but is no substitute for actual manuscripts. This is easy for almost anyone to understand. "The fact that the devil was the one who cleverly obscured and scrambled the originals, does not daunt these academia students. They think they can match wits with the devil and win." The poor scholarship that can lead to statements like this are endemic to people whose lack of study led to cutting corners. vpw pulled this, and his sychophants follow along blindly- even though average students have no trouble understanding how false this is. This is the internet age, Anyone can find proof that the originals were not "scrambled", nor "obscured" nor "unreliable" nor "tattered remnants." Anyone looking through the Masoretic text and the Samaritan Pentateuch can see that the OT is remarkably well-preserved. Anyone comparing the contents of the Cairo Genizah to modern Texts can see that the NT is remarkably well-preserved- at least in Greek. (But not in Aramaic.) "In the early days of VPW's research he knew he had to start with senses approach, or method (A). But God's assurance to him was that when he did his best and was getting stuck, the revelation would be there to get him over the hump. " No, vpw plagiarized Bullinger and others, and made it sound as if he'd actually done research into the manuscripts. He NEVER studied them. He studied HOMILETICS, how to preach, which is an incredibly soft option compared to Bible history, Bible languages, study of manuscripts..... The "God's assurance" part is ASSUMED- based on the authority he claimed and the integrity of which he was bankrupt. We used to take his word for things before we learned it was worthless and lacked integrity. "As time went by, it became useful to "prove" these little leaps of revelation to others to help them in their believing. Occasionally finding a manuscript that verified what God had told him would make it easier to teach others. It would also help VPW's believing for the next round of research." No. As time went by, twi gathered people who could actually study the manuscripts. So, vpw- who lacked facility with them and even lacked real understanding of their contents- would occasionally send one of his in-house experts on a fools errand to find imaginary manuscripts that "must" exist- since he wanted some manuscript SOMEWHERE to say what he WANTED it to say. Furthermore, sending them to look over the manuscripts to see what they could learn could yield something valuable, something he could monetize, something he could claim God Almighty revealed to him. "There were a few other reasons for this kind of Verification Research being useful. Something to remember is this. Finding a manuscript that verifies what VPW already had committed to DOES NOT PROVE that VPW was right in that prior commitment. But it does help make it easier to believe. " It was a fools errand that did NOT turn up the imaginary manuscripts that agreed with vpw. He admitted as much in the previous quote. "There are ALL KINDS of manuscripts out there and hardly any ways to figure out how valid each one is. It is all guesswork. Sometimes it can be a well educated piece of guesswork. But without revelation, all Biblical research is really guesswork, especially when you factor in that the devil intelligently scrambled things for us." That's an astonishingly- ignorant quote. It's easy to prove otherwise now, between books easy to acquire, and documentation available online 24/7. There's entire fields of study, and how one manuscript is rated above another is clear- and it is hard work. That's what distinguishes vpw from the researchers in another way- vpw always skipped the hard work. But learning HOW manuscripts are rated is NOT hard. It is painstakingly done, and anything BUT "guesswork." All of that isn't terrible shocking from someone whose final word on things is "the limits of what vpw taught." vpw's notable IGNORANCE of the entire field was covered by his dismissal of the entire field. Seeing people STILL doing that is a shame, and they can avoid it easily. And most people do.
    3 points
  15. Yes they tried to gaslight us into having marriage problems like they have done with so many couples. Gaslight, attack, drop from Corps and make them go back thru. You see absolute cult control is a stronger bond than marriage. It backfired on them. We went to a very qualified marriage counselor who basically told us the only problem with our marriage was these gaslighting arseholes. Amazingly once we dumped those from our lives and no longer listened to the gaslighters our lives improved amazingly for the better. Dropping the cult Bible interpretations we much more easily developed friendships in our community and with many local Christians. All of the other areas in our lives also improved. I guess from my life lessons if you want an abundant life or power stay as far away from the PFLAP cult that you can. And don’t believe one Word that the Pharisees tell you about your life.
    3 points
  16. Hey, listen. If the King James was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.
    3 points
  17. But but but . . . . Four crucified!
    3 points
  18. Here's some philosophical wisdom that readers may or may not relate to, but I see it definitely as concerns twi: There is SOOOOOOOOOO much more knowledge about so SOOOOOOOOOOOO many, many things in life today than there were when we were enchained by TWI.
    3 points
  19. Oh, really?! So where are the places it says in the bibical text, "God can only give that which He is, which is Spirit." Or is it you, like Saint Vic, reading something in the text that isn't there? Everybody repeat after me: Add to the Word of God and you no longer have the Word of God.
    3 points
  20. One way to face reality is to let oneself experience the pain. Then insight and growth can possibly happen. Or one can distort reality through a variety of means, avoiding the pain.
    3 points
  21. What’s ironic are the times when I have admitted being young and naïve to fall for wierwille’s con – and Mike jumps on that to say how smart and discerning he was to ignore wierwille’s ‘petty shortcomings’ and just absorb ‘The Word’. A weird role reversal for sure… maybe a pot calling the kettle black thing. "The pot calling the kettle black" is a proverbial idiom that may be of Spanish origin, of which English versions began to appear in the first half of the 17th century. It means a situation in which somebody accuses someone else of a fault which the accuser shares, and therefore is an example of psychological projection,[1] or hypocrisy.[2] Use of the expression to discredit or deflect a claim of wrongdoing by attacking the originator of the claim for their own similar behavior (rather than acknowledging the guilt of both) is the tu quoque logical fallacy.” From: The pot calling the kettle black - Wikipedia "oh, I feel so stupid! Why didn't I just ignore wierwille's petty shortcomings of plagiarism, delusions of grandeur, egocentrism, hypocrisy, moral depravity and just absorb 'The Word'...(then looking upward toward a predator's haven, with tears streaming down face - as seen on TV - hi Jimmy Swaggonmeister ) I have sinned Lord Anti-Idol !"
    2 points
  22. Some people don’t know this - but there are 2 kinds of logic: 1. There’s logic logic and then there’s 2. cult-logic
    2 points
  23. No it isnt. VPW likely had a Freudian slip when he made the statemtent "It’s the Word, even if it never comes to pass" because that's not a statement of faith such as the one Jesus made in the gospels where he stated that not one jot or tittle shall pass before all is fulfilled. However, Im not here to debate the unknown and wierwille's motivations and faith are unknown at this time....well...Im talking about his true hearts intent...A lot can be discerned from his actions that arent at all favorable to the man's legacy but that's not my point. So digression aside. Shadrack, Meshack, and Abednego didnt indicate that they doubted God's promises. God had made no specific promise in the scrolls that anyone would be saved alive out of a burning fiery furnace but they simply stated they were willing martyrs in case that's what it came to. It's a rather poor comparison because S,M, and A are listed in scripture as examples of having unmoveable commitment and faith to God, where victor paul wierwille is someone who preyed on the flock. That's in scripture too and there's plenty of references to ravenous wolves and false prophets having eyes full of adultery....those would more appropriate for VPW. For wierwille to even introduce the concept "even if it never comes to pass" reeks of a faithless heart...but Im not the searcher of hearts and that's not for me to say, though it doesn't look favarouble. Mike, the law of believing caused me to have blurry lines when it comes to the promises of God. You see, you or I (or anyone else) are not the agents to bring the promises of God to pass by our believing. The law of believing introduces that sort of doubt into the promises of God because if they dont come to pass in your life the way we were taught to demand then it indicates that we lack believing to bring them to pass. One would not have enough faith in themselves to believe big enough to bring those promises to fruition. I ask ine question: Who made the promises? God! So it's God's business to bring them to pass according to the counsel of his own will: God needs no advisor and he needs no agent. However, he did choose to make us his children and he did choose to make us fellow-workers and re-create us after the image of his only begotten son and for that I am thankful. God is the object of our faith and scripture also tells us to have faith in Jesus Christ as well. We are to trust God that not one jot or tittle will pass. Once I started living this way a huge weight fell off my shoulders because I dont have to bring Gods promises to pass: I cant. I can "claim" them in the sense that I make them my own in my heart, thinking and expectation. But the agency belongs to God. I approach God with love, humility, and respect and ask in faith...I no longer approach the throne of Grace with a demanding, entitled attitude. Im not saying you are either...it's simply what we were taught by wierwille.
    2 points
  24. God is not at all involved in the law of believing. As an occultic practice I would say it's antithetical to his nature. God didn't give everything in a cookie jar where only the tall can reach. God doesn't ever support or teach the strong survive...that's actually luciferian in nature as is the law of believing. The lob wassnt even popularized until the 1800s, before that it wasn't accepted in Christology. Phineas Parkhurst Quimby was the brainchild and he taught Mary Eddy Baker the founder of Christian science. The law of believing is Christian witchcraft.
    2 points
  25. So, in other words, as instructed by vpw, twi, etc, to "operate the Law of Believing", is to engage in white magic, witchcraft? (The answer is yes. Shocking, isn't it?)
    2 points
  26. vpw wasn't savvy enough to copyright the tapes. vpw slapped a copyright on every single book, starting with the first ones that he plagiarized all down the line. See, Mike, you can't have it both ways. Either it's wrong to plagiarize everybody- so don't plagiarize vpw but he was wrong to do it first, or it's perfectly fine to plagiarize everybody so it's ok to plagiarize vpw all you want. You've claimed vpw was ok to plagiarize, but if we do it to vpw's books, it's wrong.
    2 points
  27. Cutting through all the rationalization, here we are again having to explain to mike the most basic ethical issues in life. So be it. https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-plagiarism.html (I have no doubt mike will disregard the source because its not wierwille: but for those reading along who still have an unseared conscience) Plagiarism is the act of taking someone else’s work or ideas and presenting them as your own. Plagiarism is most commonly associated with written work, such as research papers or books, but it can also occur with artistic expressions or in spoken work, such as a speech. While it is true that imitation is the highest form of flattery, such imitation is only flattering when proper credit is given to the original. When proper credit or permission is not given, imitation becomes plagiarism. Plagiarism is dishonest because it advances a falsehood, passing off as one’s own the work of another, and the Bible has much to say about lying (e.g., Exodus 20:16; Proverbs 6:17). Plagiarism is also self-seeking, since the plagiarizer attempts to promote himself through the stolen work, and the Bible condemns self-seeking (see Romans 2:8; Philippians 2:3; 2 Timothy 3:2). Plagiarism is also stealing, and the Bible has much to say about the evils of stealing (e.g., Exodus 20:15). To steal is to take something that belongs to another, without permission, and make it one’s own. It’s easy to see how taking someone’s physical property is wrong. But taking someone’s intellectual property is just as wrong. Ideas, creative work, and written expressions belong to the person who created them. Plagiarism takes from the creator what was produced from his or her own mind and heart. Plagiarism robs authors, artists, musicians, and other creators of their right to profit from their own original work. It also robs them of the right to build a reputation based upon their work. Stealing is a sin that was part of our old lives, not to be continued after we meet Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17). Ephesians 4:28 says that stealing must be replaced with something good: “Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.” This principle applies to the theft of intellectual property as well. If plagiarism has been a part of someone’s old life, it must be renounced and confessed to the Lord as sin (see 1 John 1:9). In order to live in honesty and integrity, we must give proper credit to people whose work we admire, and we should request permission before using the work of others as part of our own creations. Plagiarism has no part in the life of a follower of Christ (1 Peter 4:15).
    2 points
  28. I just got off the phone with a friend. In our talks, he asked me if I'd gotten this postcard from twi. He and another corps grad in my city received this postcard a few weeks back. Apparently, twi is targeting those who they think might be susceptible to nostalgic messaging to return to twi. For the record, I never received this postcard. Could it be that twi monitors GSC to see who the outspoken critics are.... and then, (obviously) does NOT send them this postcard knowing that it's not possible to seduce and deceive you or me, AGAIN? In my opinion, yes... that's their deceptive marketing strategy. Those who have not done their due diligence in dismantling twi's deception and web of lies is STILL vulnerable to the cult's trappings. Everything that upholds common sense, tells us that twi operates as a cult to instigate total thought reform of the individual. Study Scientology and you'll see the same "steps to enlightenment," loaded language, isolation, destruction of the authentic-self, dependency, groupthink, totalitarian tactics, etc. Seemingly, at this time twi has settled on using nostalgia as a weapon to entice. What is left at The Way International that could possibly lure someone to "come back?" The people, so-called leaders, "friends" and acquaintances have scattered to the winds. Campuses sold off. Programs altered. An auditorium that can seat 1,440 has generally the first 5-6 rows on the main level occupied on any given regular STS. Staff members who do their duties and quickly head back to their trailers after the meeting. Everything reeks of a dying organization. I am sometimes reminded of one of the final lines in the movie, The Devil's Advocate.... where the sleazy reporter says to Keanu Reeves, "Vanity.....gets them every time." Could it be that vanity is used as a form of ju-jitsu to leverage one's past experiences with present common sense reality? I mean, it's just nuts to even consider returning to the trappings of a cult.
    2 points
  29. I don’t mean to belabor this - but maybe to point out some distinctions: wierwille taught about the Christ in you and the gift of holy spirit (lower case “h” and “s”) but in my opinion there might have been a twofold purpose : he was blowing smoke up ‘believers’ a$$es - to inflate their egos and have them draw a correlation with the power behind wierwille’s ministry - in other words, he probably wanted followers to assume he exemplified living by the power of Christ in you. The idea of wierwille subliminally substituting himself in place of Christ’s authority has been touched on a few times on this thread. I think that is the nuance that needs to be highlighted. Sure, he taught it was Christ in you. But I think here is another one of those wierwille switcheroos - like a Stepford Wives ‘syndrome’. What I think wierwille taught as the real you - the Christ in you - was his ideal of the perfect TWI-follower - compliant…obedient to the man of God…’not my will but thine (the cult-leader’s will ) be done’. The real…actual…immanent Christ may very well be present - but if His authority and directives are not acknowledged - for all practical purposes one could consider Him absent. Religion deals in a lot of abstracts. For those who believe in a God - I bet no two people think of him or her in exactly the same way. At the center of Christianity is Jesus Christ - I know I’m stating the obvious here - but the message of the gospel gives us a bunch of reference points to think somewhat more objectively of Jesus Christ and by extension the Father. To reinterpret John 14:9 - he who is observes Jesus’ words and deeds is also seeing the Father. The fact that wierwille focused primarily on Pauline letters may also be a factor in why his theology was unmoored from traditional Christianity. While it is true, we don’t know Christ after the flesh as II Corinthians 5:16 says - I don’t think that means we ignore His words and deeds recorded in the gospels. It’s about our perspective being changed. A natural view of Christ led to His crucifixion and Paul persecuting followers of Christ. After Paul’s conversion he had a divine perspective of Christ. And so do we when we read of His words and deeds. The gospels provide us with the touchstone for living Christ-like. On the other hand, reflecting on some of the things I’ve witnessed wierwille say and do - it’s obvious to me now his reference point was not Jesus Christ - but himself. So he came up with ‘great’ redefinitions like “anything done in the love of God is okay.” Where does it say that in Paul’s letters - or for that matter in the gospels? A TWI-follower thinking about the ‘Christ in you’ could mean something totally different from a member of a local church feeling compelled to help a homeless person.
    2 points
  30. Funny I just don’t see that playing out in Jesus life and example in any fashion. He portrayed a lot of emotion as well as sharp logic. What I most certainly do see suppressed all the time is common logic due to emotional attachment. When you make a habit of suppressing things it leaks out in other areas.
    2 points
  31. I am so grateful to you OldSkool for taking the time to put the above together. It's clear and precise and absolutely proves from scripture how involved Christ is in our lives. And it so negates the "absent Christ" dogma of twi. As you might remember, I only began posting on GSC recently (in late November of last year to be exact), and it was only after I began reading many of the posts on this thread at the time. That was when I realized that buying into the "absent Christ" doctrine and practices of twi had resulted in me only having an intellectual knowledge of Christ as you wrote about above, "Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesn’t do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplished works." Since then, you and many others helped me to understand that Christianity is all about having a personal relationship with Christ. That's when everything changed between Christ and I. It's like instead of watching the same player in the same old hockey game over and over again , you can now get on the ice and actually play the game with him (or her) . I have made a word document of what you wrote as it's a great reference of truth concerning this topic.
    2 points
  32. I wonder if Mike got mixed up with his responses and who he was replying to…But it doesn’t matter…what’s really important is that in the mix-up Mike may have inadvertently revealed his motivation…the multi-quotes above are in sequential order – and I will make a few comments about each one to show Grease Spotters how I got to this discovery…My persistence in doing stuff like this is for the benefit of those still in The Way International…I don’t think Mike’s habit of denial is representative of many folks in TWI. At least I hope not – it probably becomes more prevalent the longer folks stay involved with a cult that encourages cognitive distortions . Denial is a defense mechanism in which an individual refuses to recognize or acknowledge objective facts or experiences. It’s an unconscious process that serves to protect the person from discomfort or anxiety from: Denial | Psychology Today . See also: Denial (Freud) - Wikipedia 50 Common Cognitive Distortions | Psychology Today ~ ~ ~ ~ The road to discovery starts here( numbers in red correspond to above quoted posts) 1.Before I quote my post of January 25, 2023 at 1:25 AM, I want to give you some sense of what drove me to start questioning everything about wierwille. My cognitive skills were reawakened in the aftermath of Chris G reading the Passing of the Patriarch (which, I guess, was supposed to be something like wierwille’s last will and testament to the way corps ) one night while I was in residence…It was like so many red flags that were heavily blanketed by the dust of denial were suddenly uncovered by tornadic storms of long forgotten doubts, questions and bad personal experiences in TWI…I began an intense review and reevaluation of wierwille’s teachings – in PFAL and beyond! I even looked into his credentials and things he claimed he accomplished – like “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses” . That is why In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a person’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher? … T-Bone quote ~ ~ ~ ~ 2. On January 25th 2023 9:16 AM Mike quotes this portion of my post “Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher?” T-Bone quote And then Mike says this: That is a very telling phrase: "...the foundation of my faith was built upon..." I am so sorry to see so many built their faith on what they thought was a traditional holy man who doubled as a scholar. In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible and especially Paul's Epistles to my mind so that I could use them to benefit my live and others. The ministry was merely a vehicle to help this process in my mind. My suspicions and respects toward VPW went up and down over the decades. But my understanding of the Bible has just increased and increased over the years, due to the start I got in PFAL. I am so glad I built my faith on the Bible, and still do.”…Mike quote Unless you are familiar with Mike’s unsolicited ‘tenure’ of 20 years at Grease Spot Café – you probably won’t see how laughable Mike’s hypocrisy is – as revealed in this typical response above. Mike has adopted wierwille’s position on a lot of stuff related to the Bible – but at this stage of his game Mike has mutated so much of wierwille’s doctrine that I bet wierwille himself probably wouldn’t recognize it…To be clear – Mike has NOT built his faith on the Bible – rather he has complete confidence in what wierwille said about the Bible…and it’s usually after I open up and make myself vulnerable – that Mike likes to brag about his 'retroactive cognitive skills' to show how he was smarter than me and was not duped like I was – Mike said In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible Mike quote ~ ~ ~ ~ 3.On January 25th 2023 8:04 PM Mike said this in responding to OldSkool: Now, let’s get up front about something. No matter what I write as a summary of handling that list, and no matter what amount of text I devote to each scripture, you will find SOMETHING(s) about it to totally reject it, and even if lose the argument with me, you’ll find another set of arguments to maintain your position. Isn’t that so? In other words you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people, right? You aren’t thinking, “What am I going to do if Mike unravels my anti-idol that I’ve built my religious service faith on protecting people from?” I just want you to know that I know that. And of course, you will (and have often) accuse me of the exact same; isn’t that right? You were sure you were right when you slaved for TWI, but now your are sure you are right, again. But THIS time you are really right….Mike quote This one really threw me. Why did Mike say you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people to OldSkool? I was the one who said I had an ominous feeling…dread...that I would I find I had based my confidence on the lies of a false teacher…Perhaps Mike got mixed up in his responses. ~ ~ ~ ~ What have we learned here? I believe Mike’s habit of denial, obfuscating the evidence, ignoring doctrinal issues are some of the main reasons why folks are still trapped in The Way International. A lot of Mike’s shtick is a caricature of the cult-mindset fostered in TWI. What it does is it gets people to disengage their cognitive skills. ~ ~ ~ ~ To all those still involved in The Way International and any of its offshoots, as a believer in our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I beg you in His name to check out threads that expose TWI for what it is – a whitewashed mausoleum of a dead cult-leader. Check out this list of dubious doctrines taught in the 1967 PFAL class – that I made on another thread – and this is by no means complete. My challenge to all was to ask if all these questionable dogmas are still taught in the new PFAL Today. I have yet to get a definitive answer – you can see the list here > at least 28 problematic doctrines in PFAL and check out these other threads: The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write The Book? wierwille’s pathological ministry wierwille wanted to control the money The Way: Living in Wonderland The Secret Agenda Society TWI the pseudo-Christian cult TWI servitude Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps The Original Letter Sent to TWI by top leaders leaving ~ ~ ~ ~ In analyzing wierwille’s dubious phrase the Word takes the place of the Absent Christ, I’ve thought about John 5:39 a few times: Amplified Bible You search and keep on searching and examining the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and yet it is those [very Scriptures] that testify about Me…John 5:39 In a manner of speaking wierwille had me doing something similar. Without realizing it, I believed wierwille’s teaching on the Bible was transparent and was just the same as me reading the Bible for myself. I was not aware I had wierwille’s filter in my thought process. And not only that, I had this vague notion that “The Word” as taught by wierwille was the best and only substitute for a dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ. That’s all for now, folks
    2 points
  33. I try to teach my son how (H-O-W) to find out. I try to teach him how (H-O-W) to research. (He knows the accurate meaning of that word.) How to question, inquire, test, doubt. How to always follow the evidence wherever it might lead - especially evidence presented after he thinks he knows. I try to teach him that dogma is rarely good. I try to teach him to pay attention to his own confirmation bias and to be aware of biases held by others. I try to teach him the more he embraces the not knowing, the more he can know. HOWEVER,
    2 points
  34. "It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is. If the—if he—if ‘is’ means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement. … Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.”
    2 points
  35. Ugh. The lack of boundaries. Commitment until death?! And Ruth's special assignment was to get married and have a child.
    2 points
  36. The eight symptoms of groupthink include an illusion of invulnerability or of the inability to be wrong, the collective rationalization of the group’s decisions, an unquestioned belief in the morality of the group and its choices, stereotyping of the relevant opponents or out-group members, and the presence of “mindguards” who act as barriers to alternative or negative information, as well as self-censorship and an illusion of unanimity. Decision making affected by groupthink neglects possible alternatives and focuses on a narrow number of goals, ignoring the risks involved in a particular decision. It fails to seek out alternative information and is biased in its consideration of that which is available. Once rejected, alternatives are forgotten, and little attention is paid to contingencyplans in case the preferred solution fails. https://www.britannica.com/science/groupthink The two entries directly following groupthink are persuasion and brainwashing. So, I mean to use the term in the context of cult. --------- I don't think it is always best to put one's self ahead of the group. I usually put others before myself, to a fault. This is not groupthink. It's selfless generosity guided by something greater than myself or the group. Ostracism is a real threat when one has given away EVERYTHING to join a cult. --------- When I was in the corporate world, I saw groupthink as a liability, not an asset. Though I expected my team to to be aligned with certain top line goals and values, I challenged them to be creative and think outside the box to find solutions. "We do it that way because we've always done it that way" is a bullshonta, lazy cop out that I strongly discouraged. (I was the black sheep in a good ol boy culture, but I delivered results that couldn't be denied.) --------- I understand the need for a sense of belonging, but if one must sacrifice one's individuality, independence and free thought for the group, then one should reconsider belonging to that group.
    2 points
  37. Twi is nothing but a one-trick pony. When I look at this postcard there are several things that jump out at me.... Why is it time to come home? Impersonal and presumptuous..... they have NO IDEA where my life is today. What is the benefit for me at this time? Once again, it reeks of a self-serving agenda to attract those who'd already had their minds grooved with cult-indoctrination rather than go out and find NEW PEOPLE. Plus, the non-subtle agenda of desperation attempts to increase revenue flow. Maybe they consider it "home"..... but I don't. That type of juvenile loaded-language has long lost its appeal. Wierwille used these types of deception when he referenced "Uncle Harry." Old man Harry was NOT my uncle.... nor was I one of wierwille's "corps kids." With attained critical thinking skills, these tricks of deception NO LONGER WORK. Is this picture of wierwille's burial site supposed to trigger nostalgic memories? Again, this is such juvenile marketing 101 that tells us more about them than they realize. Whether its been 10, 20 or 30 years since exiting that place.... most all have discarded memories and trashed those books from that abusive cult. In fact, I would wager that most have connected the dots to see how wierwille/twi conned them into years of indentured servitude. And further, doesn't every corporation have a burial site to showcase their product? Knowing what I know today about signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder ... wierwille was a prime example. Was he so consumed with this disorder that he perceived himself as some "Egyptian Pharoah" entombed *front-and-center* at the entrance of twi-property for ALL TO SEE? Was he expecting his legacy to pass from generation to generation? Yes. This postcard reeks of deception, manipulation and exploitation.... just like wierwille's tactics and policies. Donna and Rosalie are simply running on the railroad tracks that brought twi to this point in time. It's just the latest form of redux manipulation sent to those who might fall for it. P.S. This tactic is similar to wierwille's corps letters. .
    2 points
  38. "Someday we’re going to find a manuscript that verifies this." "“We probably won’t find a manuscript in my lifetime that verifies this, but my spiritual awareness tells me what the original has to say.” ========================= Well, most people will look at this, if not through the lens of adoration of the speaker, and say that this is obviously an attempt by a person to disregard all the available evidence and claim something for which no evidence exists, allowing them to make ridiculous claims that contradict Scripture. When lcm said this stuff, his go-to phrase for pulling stuff out of his sit-upon was "You'd know this if you worked The Word on this." In vpw's case, it was the manuscripts that nobody's ever seen that somehow still support vpw's claims even if they have been read by nobody and there's no proof they even exist. Their existence is all predicated on the "spiritual awareness" of a plagiarizing rapist who lied and claimed to hear from God, who plagiarized the works of many others and still flubbed it often, who listened to conspiracy nuts then turned around and reported what they said and pretended it was Divine Revelation that told him, and got his "doctorate" from a degree mill. Once all that is known, what kind of credibility does the speaker have? That's right- none at all. It was all smoke and mirrors. But when we didn't know any better, that nonsense played a LOT better because we trusted someone untrustworthy and thought we could trust him.
    2 points
  39. I was surprised to receive the card today myself.....a measly 25 years or so after being marked and annoyed. What was missing though, was the apology. Not that an apology would make me believe that the real me would be welcome there. It would be quite nostalgic to check the old place out again though. However, nothing would be worth going back to putting on the blinders. they no doubt picked this program up from the Roman Catholics, who have been promoting a 'come home' program for some time now.
    2 points
  40. Yeah some things are bigger than cults. Family is one of them, especially the one we made on our own outside of them. Christianity is another. Let all those isolationist fundamentalist arseholes all move the word cult over the world and leave me alone while I interact with real people in my community. My Lord’s body is not so narrow minded. Community is yet another. People are not a piece of meat for the class or an empty floating by. Removing the cult mentality means enjoying community with neighbors who are Methodist, Catholic and Community Christian like brothers and sisters in the body of Christ. Sometimes we attend each others churches and small groups. Owning a home with a mortgage is a big part of being community paying those taxes and contributing. Career is another. Why not enjoy working rather than suffering through it so you can fully give yourself to a volunteer demanding cult position? I mean why waste our lives on second-rate causes when God has given us richly so many things to enjoy?
    2 points
  41. All that effort spent and all so they can deify wierwille and maintain the vpw preservation society. Crazy. Thank God I'm out of that place and have the best relationship with God I've ever had
    2 points
  42. Scrolls and such containing what we know as the Old Testament we're kept in the Synagogues and Temple. Those scrolls we're not an exact match of our Old Testament, books have been removed. The Septuagint was the text of the day so to speak. Most likely Jesus, and most others learned from the Septuagint. The New Testament was compiled from cyclical letters. Nobody in the first century had the Bible as we have it. The first Bible wasn't printed until 1455 in Germany: The Gutenberg Bible. There's been various Canons developed. Some of the books that were dropped from our Canon likely shouldn't have been. Then there were the oral traditions that were passed down amongst Israel...many of those traditions were codified into modern day Judaism. Same old schtick as wierwille. The pharisees told people they needed their traditions to interpret the Torah. There was also the Babylonian Talmud. Jesus Christ referred to the oral traditions as well as the Babylonian Talmud as the traditions of men. He was against them fully.
    2 points
  43. When God created in Genesis he spoke things into being. The Logos --> Christ --> The Word. Out of chaos came creation. As a new human being the world and life is chaos. As we grow and understand things our minds give persons, places, things, emotions, concepts, ideas etc . . . we give them names. Out of the perceived chaos our minds create meaning over time. Anytime we go into something new this happens. Not sure where I'm going with that but the connection between language and creation and The Logos I think is neat. In that way the use of language can be considered part of the act of creation.
    2 points
  44. Anyone who actually has something worthwhile to say, and an opportunity to address an audience- and you had that for a few years while people asked you to speak clearly and make your points- can address the audience and communicate CLEARLY. I've done that, and had people line up afterwards and wait to shake my hand. (Surprised the heck out of me- they'd just spend 90 minutes listening to me, and some wanted to continue for hours where I'd stopped. I finally had to beg off out of physical hunger.) So, you supposedly have something important to say. You've had decades to find how to phrase it. And you still have no end of excuses as to why you're not going to just get to the point. But that's anything BUT news now. You'll go on for paragraphs on some self-congratulatory diversion, but actually get to the point? No, you don't have time.
    2 points
  45. I can't remember learning to SIT, just like I can't remember learning to walk or talk. I must have just picked it up when I was very small. During children's fellowships, there was an unspoken game to fake it. You got caught. It was funny. Children can tell who's faking Speaking in Tongues. As I grew older the more I resented it. I hated it. I would break a sweat in Fellowship at the idea of manifestations. When it came to manifestations, I'd rather be hit with a spoon. There's something twisted about Speaking in Tongues, or telling yourself some higher power giving you this ability. Since the feeling is subjective, nobody has reason to take your doubts seriously.
    2 points
  46. After that we'll sing "A Mighty Principle Is Our God."
    2 points
  47. Hence the reason The Way International continues with the whitewash program - to conceal the unpleasant fact that it is STILL a pseudo-Christian organization…NOT based on the person and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ - but on the challenging counterfeit, wierwille! 50 years ago, if you would have said to me “how would you like to learn about God and the Bible by following a hypocritical unabashed plagiarist delusional megalomaniac malignant narcissist money-grubbing chain-smoking drunkard misogynistic sexual predator who will exploit you until you’re all used up?” I probably would have responded by saying “no thanks, if that’s what God and the Bible are all about, I’ll look elsewhere.” ~ ~ ~ ~ There’s a time coming when all those who have misled others will have to answer for their crimes: At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 He called a little child to him and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. 6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! Matthew 18
    2 points
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