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The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school uses this type of imagery, only Wierwille. So extremist behavior dedicated to him is what he wanted in that program. Calling it Wierwilles folly is laughable as all of Wierwilles works were folly. What did he say? If we lose WOW and the Corps we lose the ministry. Just like the free volunteers in Jehovahs Witnesses, like the cheap labor in Scientology’s Sea Org, or all the missionaries in the Mormon church, using others at their expense for your benefit is what Wierwille excelled at. He didn’t even need excellor sessions in trading in peoples flesh and using them he was a natural. Zealots for the cause is what that term is intended to produce. And OMG does the Way have more than its share of self centered abusers, mostly Corps and clergy and officers and directors.

I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other Christians, rote mechanics in place of worship manifestations, conspiracy theory, lack of sexual boundaries (Schoenheit adultery paper), and wrong dividing of scripture to introduce spiritual abuse via the all powerful leadership. The easiest way to see all this is to start from the practical side. What tactics do all destructive cults have in common? Once you see they all have common elements of control and unquestioning obedience, you can work backwards easily to see the false doctrine that introduced the error. Make no mistake it was the false teachings of VPW that caused far more damage than his personal behavior.

Ah yes the Mystery! This is that concept where Jews and Gentiles are together with one Lord and Savior and together in one body of Christ. Except - 1. Did they take “the class” yet? If not they need to to really really be a part 2. All the heads of denominations are seed of the serpent and devil spirit influenced so don’t go to any of their churches, collaborate with them, have joint ministries with them, give them any money, or do anything other than witness to them the greatness of this “class” 3. If you are in debt you aren’t really really ready to fully fellowship with them 4. Any of their “causes” are second rate causes where the first rate cause is giving to TWI to support Craig’s pension, insurance payoffs from misconduct, Rosalie’s housekeepers, molten metal statues of VP for desks and lobbies, and keeping Gunnison open for like 100 people a year to visit but make sure “bless patrol “ is fully staffed to keep others including Christians out. 5. The Ways investment arm - like the Mormon church they make money from your money. 6. Militant inspired leadership training - the “Way Corps” 7. Weekly phone hookups where you dress up and play audience 8. Highly controlled “manifestations” where they are the only people who do them accurately. 9. The law of believing that works for saint and sinner alike except the saints get more blame for “not believing” enough. 10. Conspiracy theory at the Advanced Class 11. A top leadership body that listens to and is accountable to nobody on earth. Isn’t it great that we now have the Great Mystery revealed in our day and time? /s (sarcasm flag) The biggest mystery to me is why I put up with all that bullshonta for multiple decades of my life. Experience a release from that mystery and vote with your feet. Then the mystery of the scriptures with all nations and former persuasions being united in one body of Christ will become actually alive to you.

144. following the "principles" of PFAL leads to a life of discontentment. wierwille uses this proof-text to give reason for chasing after material abundance: New King James Version The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly… John 10:10 HOWEVER The author of Ecclesiastes said one who pursues abundance will never be satisfied. New King James Version He who loves silver will not be satisfied with silver; Nor he who loves abundance, with increase. This also is vanity…. Ecclesiastes 5:10 Perhaps David in the OT already clarified the abundance Jesus would bring: The LORD is my shepherd, I lack nothing… Psalm 23:1 NIV

I saw a meme once that said "We know the earth isn't flat because, if it was, cats would have knocked everything over the edge long ago."

A) On lots of threads, lots of ex-twi have talked about how much better their lives have been since twi, and sometimes about how God's given them results since twi. Mike has missed all of that- probably for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman. B) I don't need specifics of Mike's testimony, since he's already given me the biggest detail. In spite of a recent attempt to spin-doctor it, Mike started a thread with the goal of answering the question "Why don't we see miracles and lots of prayers answered anymore?" If it was a thread where the opening post was "actually, we see EVEN MORE", then that would be different. So, no, he's got squat. C) Mike's been trying to claim that Session 1 of pfal- and the books adapting it- didn't have vpw bring up material abundance and promise material abundance... despite the fact that they do, very obviously and blatantly. Someone's looking to LOWER THE BAR OF EXPECTATIONS. So, what's the complete picture? Lots of people have happiness, some prosperity, and answers to prayers- and Mike insists they don't. Mike's got little of those- and insists on getting cagey in discussing them. Where others have freely given testimony, he's said we have to earn his testimony- which, again, means he's got squat, otherwise he's be waving it around as proof his doctrine isn't all platitudes, smoke and mirrors. Mike's trying to say his alleged "pfal" doctrine isn't supposed to guarantee MATERIAL ABUNDANCE (in spite of insinuating exactly that all over Session 1)- because Mike doesn't have it and can't guarantee it despite himself. What's next- the holy Amway?

I agree with So_Crates when he said "Here's a wild idea: why don't YOU become meek and I'll tell you about all the fruit in my life since I stopped making PLAF the center of my life." There have been so many testimonies from posters of how their lives have improved spiritually, mentally, financially, etc. after leaving and recovering from twi. Either you are skipping over them because they make you feel too uncomfortable or you can't allow yourself to believe they're true - and maybe there are other unknown reasons for your doing so. The point is that although you may miss the impact of their testimonies, many others like myself, did not.

Posted April 29, 2020 by WordWolf Every now and again, someone still claims that pfal and twi were special. Their reason for this is the claim that vpw was special. Their reason for this is the 1942 promise. vpw claimed he received a promise from God Almighty in 1942, and he used this claim to justify thinking of "his" books and classes to akin to the Bible itself. The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word ;like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm. Word Wolf posted this on April 29, 2020 All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before, this is mostly compilation. A) The miraculous snowstorm never happened. There was NO report of actual snow anywhere near where this allegedly happened. When it supposedly happened, he didn't even tell his own wife it happened. Come on, that would have been the first words out of any spouse's mouth that evening. ("Honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today...") He never claimed it until decades later. He couldn't keep the details of the miraculous event straight, even. When he first began making this claim, he said the sky looked BLACK with all the heavy snow. This, BTW, isn't what it looks like for even the heaviest snow. Later-probably because he learned that doesn't happen- he switched to saying the sky was WHITE with snow. I'm sure details can get lost over time, but if a miraculous event that turns the sky all one color, you'd at least remember the color. Finally, this wasn't the only time vpw claimed a miraculous snowstorm. In fact, he did it whenever it was convenient. When he added special significance to the minister's conference where he met Stiles, vpw claimed that the entire city was snowed in completely. He was unable to get out because planes, trains and buses were all stopped due to heavy snow conditions, a blizzard. This was a rather big lie, and one that was checkable. When someone spoke to him about it, he didn't say "I was there and saw the snow and walked in it, check again", he immediately switched his story to prevent trying to contradict the weather report. He immediately began claiming the snow was an angelic apparition- angels made him see snow that wasn't there, and when he phoned transit places, angels answered the phone and lied to him. (He would rather have us think angels lied than that he lied.) In reality, not even a single FLAKE fell from the sky in that city that day, and the temperature didn't reach freezing. This wasn't the last time vpw made up a convenient snowstorm, even. A poster here once noted that vpw was supposed to visit their area. Instead, he phoned and said that he WANTED to fly there, but he was located at a bad snowstorm and he was told it was unsafe. The poster checked the weather in vpw's area at the time, and there was neither snow nor storms predicted. So, the entire snow part was a lie. Without that, there's no 1942 promise. However, even if it was possible for there to have been a snowstorm (it's not possible), the other problems with his story would be enough to discredit it. There WAS no 1942 promise. vpw was NEVER some great one. pfal was NEVER some great class nor great study materials. It was all built up as a con-and not the most secure con, either. It needed lots of outside help to prop it up.

Mike: "You are too much the stickler on exact vocabulary." Whatever happened to "mathematical exactness and scientific precision", and "God has a purpose for everything He says, how He says it, to whom He says it..." vpw pushed being a stickler on exact vocabulary. Of course, since he was wrong, we don't have to obsess, but since you insist he was right, you're supposed to agree with him and push FOR being a stickler.

I was reminded, a few months ago, that we once discussed microwave ovens. Mike recited the internet myth that microwave ovens leak radiation. I linked the real story. AFTER that, Mike said that the link confirmed that microwave ovens are a radiation danger. I summarized the danger- according to the link (an official source) , microwave ovens may leak an inch or so past the case. So, unless you drape yourself across a microwave oven while it's running, you're safe from a radiation leak. I thought of that when he was running his lines recently on how well he grasps science.

Thank you Chockfull for bringing up "inherit the wind" (which I just found out is from Prov 11:29) and Oldiesman for the clip from the movie. I looked it up as well and learned the main theme of Inherit the Wind is freedom of speech. In the play, freedom of speech is closely related to freedom of thought. More interesting themes were listed in this website. https://www.litcharts.com/lit/inherit-the-wind/themes

Thanks, Chockfull. I thought for interest you might like to see what these churches support: Bath Abbey: https://www.bathabbey.org/donate/mission-partners/ The first four are working locally for international benefit; the fifth (Genesis) is a local charity. Holy Trinity/StACC: https://www.htcd.church/international-mission These are the international missions. There are other local (UK) missions that are supported, Genesis again being one. Genesis Trust (hyperlink) is local and small, and deals with the "dreggiest" homeless, addicted, abandoned people and tries to raise them in confidence and skill level and to reintegrate them into "normal" society. It works in partnership with other local charities to address their wider problems - housing, addiction, ill health, etc. Genesis is funded entirely by donations, mostly from the city's churches: its clientele is so chaotic in lifestyle that it can't produce the "measurable" outcomes that local authorities and other grant-giving organisations demand. The congregations get reports from time to time about the work carried on in these missions. So you see, both the churches as donors and the missions hold themselves accountable to the congregations that have given money. Oh, and by the way: neither the abbey nor StACC/HTCD ever require the congregation to give under pain of excommunication or any other sanction. Finances are talked about occasionally, especially when needed for a project; and we see the annual accounts of the churches, and the treasurers are always willing to answer questions. They're also accountable upwards to the diocese and higher church authorities. I think that's all exactly as it should be in properly run churches. I cannot see TWI ever getting involved in anything like this. What a culture shock that would be! Nor, for that matter, some of the US mega-churches where the "ministers" have huge churches and cult followings. It's time for TWI people and for those in mega-churches to "come on home" to the wider Christian community, and to properly play their humble part in building up the Body of Christ. Not build the body of any cult.

What's left unwritten in welcoming us back is the obvious: one must understand that coming home means one must return to all the beliefs, all the customs, and all rules and regulations. Sort of like this wonderful sequence from "Inherit the Wind": "But all you have to do is to knock on any door and say "if you let me in I'll live the way you want me to live and I'll think the way you want me to think", and all the blinds will go up and all the doors will open and you'll never be lonely ever again."

From the article: "a strategic plan to reach out to individuals who once fellowshipped with The Way Ministry, but, for whatever reason, currently do not." So would those individuals include those who -- for whatever reason - mostly baseless -- were M&A'd, slandered, vilified, abused - and if so, would those people firstly receive an apology from The Way Ministry; and secondly, be welcomed with open arms? My guess is that (1) no apology would be forthcoming; and also (2) that any such individuals would be put on "spiritual probation" until such time as they proved themselves sufficiently sycophantic to re-embrace TWI restrictions. Could take issue with practically every sentence in this promo. But why waste the head space? I have better things to do. For example, my toenails need cutting. It's all fake!!!!!!

Yes, it was. If one knows anything about translating foreign language, one should cringe at such an embarrassing, nonsensical phrase. Yes, because his “translation” is neither literal nor according to usage.

One would never even contemplate the baseless postulate of this topic, if only one had ears to hear and eyes to see both the good news AND the great news. They are AVAILABLE, the good news and the great news. One need only know HOW to get them. Once gotten, one must know what to do with them. Hint: keep the good news parallel to the great news. If one is feeling embarrassed about not knowing what parallel means, one need only employ imagination and fantastical thinking to get linguistically creative enough to force fit the word balance into the mix. And, if one doesn’t know what balance means (some don’t), who cares? One must simply MAKE it fit. Hey! Literal according to usage is a nonsensical phrase, also. I mean, which is it? Literal? Or according to usage? Hey! I didn’t write the book! Bless you little hearts.

Victor paul wierwille thought he knew God's timeline, too. (Actually, who tf knows what vic was thinking!) One time victor paul wierwille told a young man that his parents would be dead within five years. Boy, oh, boy, was ol' vic ever wrong about that! How wrong? Dead wrong, that's how. In fact, it was victor paul wierwille himself who was dead within five years, and that young man's parents lived on for decades. victor paul wierwille f*cked up BIG TIME. Boy, oh, boy, I'd hate to be him on THAT day. mmmmph

So in the Way mag May June 2023 there is a “Word Over the World Report” entitled “A Time to Come Home”. This highlights the BOD deciding a year ago on a new campaign A Time To Come Home a strategic plan to reach out to former Way Int followers and invite them to “come and see”. The scriptures quoted here are from 2 Chronicles 30 where Hezekiah sent letters to all Israel and Judah saying they should come to the house of the Lord at Jerusalem and keep the Passover. Rom 12 is also quoted referencing one body of Christ. So clearly the BOD has an unspoken view of themselves along with HQ as “Jerusalem” and can quote one body of Christ while translating it into a cult view with zero remorse or even a second breath. To correct this doctrinal and practical error, first HQ is not Jerusalem where God had his physical center in one location. By the Ways own teaching this is not written to the modern day church. Yet that doesn’t matter one iota in building images of HQ as “Jerusalem”. If that were the case then there would be no need for other denominations in the body of Christ to have centers themselves. But they twist scripture even while trying ti share the most benign verses. Next, seriously how can you be so blind to quote Rom 12 about one body of Christ out of one side of your mouth, then completely discounting 95% of the actual body of Christ including your former followers out of the other side of your mouth? Dont trust lying words in magazines whose design is to carry you off captive. The campaigns designed behind closed doors are for one purpose only - to benefit one organization and its leaders. Blind guides lead others into ditches.

A long time ago, I got to be pretty good friends with this guy at work who knew a lot more about the job than I did because he had learned it from his father. He was always ready to offer help and teach me new skills. I was appreciative. We weren't really friends outside of work, but one day I offered to buy him a beer and a burger after work as a way of thanking him. As we sat there talking, the conversation turned to high school and working on old cars. "Well", he said, "I didn't work on cars because I was too busy learning about makeup and clothes." He saw my startled response and laughed out loud. "Yeah", he said, "When I was born, I was a girl." He showed me a picture of his kid and an old Mother's Day card and we talked about it a little more. He said his family had disowned him. He really opened my eyes to things I'd never thought about before. Then the conversation shifted back to work and we had a couple more beers. We both moved on to other jobs not long after that, but I tried to look him up a few times, maybe have a couple beers for old times' sake. Do you know how hard it is to find someone with the most common last name in America? Life is short, everybody. Just accept people for who they are instead of who you want them to be. We're all gonna leave this planet some day. Let's make the best of the time we have and be good to each other... That is all. Carry on.

Yes more details! It is interesting for sure. I’m pretty sure the RNE book is treated with the cone of silence by TWI lol. Meaning no quoting in Wag mag articles or teachings. It is an example of research which they have released no other research books since I’m aware of which is probably why they still sell it. Yes Acts is pretty much the only canonical history of the Christian church so it’s easy to see why some would get all caught up in it. I think some of those “figures of speech” are just ways people can make scripture say something it really doesn’t. I can appreciate things in native languages but they use it to twist and shoehorn scripture into places it is not naturally. It should be just an enhancer like cinnamon on rice pudding as opposed to changing rice pudding to banana pudding like they do with it. Peter and Paul. Very different lives and callings. Jerusalem and traveling the world by wooden ship. And letters. Then the conflict at the end with Paul over the legalistic Jerusalem crowd. The problem with the great statements is they basically just extracted sales numbers out of “growing and prevailing” and put them down for field assignment quotas. That’s where you see it today - the Way Tree and all the Pharisee responsibility lists. “Run classes while quoting the BOD” or something. Actually “carry the heart of the BOD to the field” is more the nonsense. The problem is the Pharisee heart just leaves people wanting to run for the hills. I think the Word prevails more here than under the “dull Way traditions where believers are controlled and censored”. Here we have a rich input of scripture, psychology, and many other fields blending together to help people escape the grasp of the legalists who would put you to work for free.

No problem Annio. Grieving such a loss over what you missed out on in your relationship with Christ because of twi will be according to your own personal timetable. Check back in if and when you want - the best thing I learned from being on GSC was that I'm not alone and neither are you.

Good lord, is that Craig? His vaunted golden hair has slipped down to his chin, and gone grey? Still got the scowl, though.

Yes. All of TWI Will pretty much interpret 1 Timothy 4:1 as proof that those of us here on GSC have fallen prey to “seducing spirits and doctrines of devils”. They take the first part of the verse as proof we have departed from the “faith” by defining that usage of “faith” as “family faith” and equate that with being an active TWI follower. The reality of the situation is that TWI has 3 fingers pointing back at themselves because the true “doctrine of devils” lies right within PFAL re defining family faith and the body of Christ as terms that are correlated to active involvement in “the ministry”. The ministry is the Word and the Word is the ministry doncha know. PFAL is rife with doctrines of devils. #145 - I’m going to start numbering every time I refute an ad hominem attack with truth and logic.

By the words Mike used above, I think he is believing that we have problems with a certain devil spirit. OldSkool mentioned something to this effect in a recent post of his. I once stumbled across an old thread titled Are Grease Spotters "Possessed?" There were some pretty humorous comments I enjoyed reading.

What I do here is straighten out the humongous pile of bullshonta that appears after your attempts to “straighten out errors”. Usually it’s some new abstract theory about the legitimacy of Plaffy that helps you regurgitate dead collaterals. I am not “over the edge n darkness”. But that reminds me. Usually along with shoveling bullshonta from you I always need to refute some kind of unfounded accusation that involves an ad hominem attack on my and others characters. The only gotcha involved here already sunk it’s hooks in you 30 plus years ago.

I have had different mindsets when I've replied to Mike since being on GSC. It's like a pendulum where I swing back and forth between extremes and sometimes I'm more in the middle. At times I know my posts are pure emotional reactions to what he had written and other times, I'm a lot more contemplative in my word choice. There's also the spiritual side where Christ might have been guiding me as to what to say. Because I have these metal balls banging back and forth in my brain and because this is an open forum, I think it's fair to let posters relate to Mike in whatever way they choose, within rules of course . In Mike's case, years of striking at a rock has produced little to nothing, but who knows, maybe one day Christ will cause water to flow out of it (I've been reading Exodus 17 ). I'm not moralizing here, I just like there to be peace and quiet like in "What about Bob?" Dr. Leo Marvin: I want some peace and quiet! Bob Wiley: Well, I'll be quiet. Siggy: I'll be peace! A lot of wisdom in that movie .

Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

After reading through all of this my impression is you are recollecting the evolution of your image of VPW. As opposed the the real man. Kind of like OS is saying. VP didn’t go thru all those evolutions of character he pretty much was the same guy thru the 60s 70s and 80s - except he was dying in the 80s. His biographical material doesn’t depict a character shift. It also doesn’t record the snowstorm story. What was your job at HQ 1976-1978? Why do you continue to use denigrating terms like “snappers”? Whatever that means you use it in a pejorative sense. The base meaning of an idol is an image different than the real deal. We have American Idol the vocal show trying to build the stars of tomorrow. So that Kelly Clarkson can become rich and famous. And Carrie Underrwood. The real people are different than the images portrayed of them to sell millions of records.

The context is so obvious. vpw was expounding on how the people at schools he went to were "top men in their fields" and how he got a superior education, oh, and how he took all of Moody's correspondence classes that he could. No comments on what he learned from any of them. no comments about what any covered, no substance from the entire experience. It's as if his entire exposure to Moody's correspondence classes started and ended with his claim that he took them. Then, as it turns out, Moody confirmed he didn't complete any of their classes- that was proven, and they are unable to prove he even signed up for any- because they didn't keep records of incomplete classes for decades. So, zero impact on him except to say he took the classes, and documentation shows he completed NONE, and no documentation to show he even applied for one (which, by itself, proves nothing, but IN THE CONTEXT OF THE REST, says a lot.) What conclusions would a reasonable person draw? Would they say Moody was lying or their records were in error? Would they say he started a bunch of their classes but didn't finish them? This is a man who was incredibly cheap financially. Would he PAY for a single class he didn't finish and get the credit? Would they say he was interested only in the study of the material? This was a man who went out of his way to AVOID studying material, and whose only strengths were in plagiarizing and in presenting sermons. So, NO, this is not a man who would have taken their classes, let along left them incomplete. This is a man who would FAKE taking their classes, to claim to know the material, and claim the cachet of the classes. As above, who would check on a ridiculous lie like that? He faked his way through everything he could, and got the credentials he could buy.

BTW, If someone's trying to push the idea that they understand God better than I do, and that I should study with them or under them, and one of the things they're trying to explain is why they aren't seeing miracles in their lives, they're not going to get far with me. If you're not seeing miracles, and you're supposedly a Christian, I'll tell you this for free- if you're looking to blame God Almighty, you're looking to place the blame where it doesn't belong.

In "vp and me", lcm documented vpw telling one corps class they were all kicked out, then quietly allowed them individually to rejoin, provided they swore more loyalty to him. According to lcm, MOST of them chose to do so. The WOW program was remarkable for twi for not only being a free sales force for twi classes and tithing, not only for providing their own transportation and lodging wherever they were TOLD to go, but for PAYING for the privilege! It cost money to go WOW.

If you ask me the WOW program was a glorified trick to make PFAL grads think it’s biblical - spreading the gospel - but it’s just motivating them to get another PFAL class together…each one reach one new customer- sell them on the greatest con in the world today…always be closing. if wierwille was genuinely interested in spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, I think he should have instructed all his followers to share stuff out of the 4 gospels and how having a genuine dynamic transformative relationship with their Lord Jesus Christ changed their life - - instead of blabbing about the stupid PFAL class . And the corps program is the mini-wierwille clone factory. “ we have ways of making you stick with PFAL”. Indoctrination on steroids! From the heart of our beloved cult-leader - - drop-shipped into a living room near you. Shipping charges (corps sponsorship is optional but highly recommended) will redeem blessings 10, 20 and a hundredfold of wadded up counterfeit money. Each one blood-let one.

Threatening to terminate the Corps was a hollow, phony threat used to elicit loyalty. The same exact tactic was used in FellowLaborers. (I was there.) Terminating the WoW program, on the other hand, would have been a monumentally stupid business decision. I mean, why on earth would you ever terminate an entire salesforce that was working without salary or commission?

"The true test of a man's character is what he does when no one is watching," - John Wooden, coach, led UCLA men's basketball to 10 NCAA national championships 1964-1975. (Did NOT invent the dunk shot.) "[Your behavior that people don't see] doesn't matter, unless you believe it will." - victor paul wierwille, charlatan, 1973 Romans Corps Teaching Q&A with Loy Craig Martindale. (vpw claimed himself the inventor of the hook shot.) Which one of these men would you have your children imitate? On whose shoulders would you have them stand? With whom would you leave your daughter alone for ten minutes?

In his final hours, vpw was seen searching his memory, determined to find some imperfection in his life in which God Almighty disapproved. He was unable to find it. vpw went to his grave feeling NO remorse for being a sexual predator, let alone drunk, false prophet, etc.

We refute the class because the class is riddled with contradictions and error and you resort to typical way international bullying tactiics. Allow me to elucidate: The poor ole me crap is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day. The blaming the victims card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day. The resort to insults when challenged card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day. The superiority complex card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day. The attack other's faith as if it's not genuine card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day. All you wierwille-ites can do when legitametely challenged is turn hostile and then blame the one who raised the issue for wierwille's shortcomings. So you do what all good wafers do, you go on the attack then play the victim card when people stand up to it and then charge everybody with being stupid and hateful. An accusation that leaves three fingers pointing at yourself. I really wasnt even in this conversation and vouched for you being a real human, which people around here doubt because we have had "aggregate accounts" before where the account was used by a group of people, so would be no surprise that it happens again, but that's not you. You are real and sincere in posting here, I get that and realize I was wrong in my suspicions. And what do you do? You turn insulting and mean with me. So, you wanna go, let's go. We both know you lack the reasoning and debate skills to carry on an intelligent, calm, reasonable discussion on the matters. Its doubtful you will concede wierwille is wrong on anything and may well goto your grave convinced of his con game. You can't say you were never told otherwise.

Agreed. I would tweak that last statement, though, to note that his personal behavior functioned as instruction by example and, thus, encouraged others to indulge in harmful behavior as well..

Same old load of horse spit I had to listen to, all the way back in 1975, when I voiced concern over the direction of the FellowLaborer program. Substitute the name of any infamous villain from the past (Dahmer, Gacy, Manson, Stalin...) and try to justify their actions using the same line of reasoning. Wierwille wasn't "one of the good guys". It's really just that simple.

Right on. Im also thinking, from my own time as a good little wayfer, that mike imaginies he is battling devil spirits with the information we post. I mean, disagreements with wierwille always pointed to posession. So we are likely all hate filled, devil posessed cop outs and mike is here exercising his prowess in the spiritual competition. I saw, and participatied, in that delusional behavior my entire time in TWI. Example: Walmart witnessing, (silly made up example that actually happened ad infinitum) as I have a copy of golf digest (I hate golf) at the magazine aisle as I try and creep my way into a conversation I can turn to the class...finally I make eye contact and ask the person reading sport illustrated if they are an athelete...I then pounce and start preaching the spiritual competition....as they walk away hurriedly from the wacko reading golf digest who hates golf....I suddenly exercise discerning of spirits and realize that the guy who was reading sports illustrated and ran from me trying to preach the spiritual competition...is....posessed! See -- spiritual matrurity.

After all this detail from you, I'm not convinced you understand what victor was saying in his little fiction about the red drapes. Those scriptures you cite are not about balancing nor paralleling needs and wants. They just aren't, even if you beleeeve they are. Balanced is not an accurate, precise, nor effectual synonym for parallel, especially in this context. We all know what parallel means -- side by side, at the same time, analogous, equivalent, aligned... In the Fire Engine Red Drapes (FERD) story, that broad needed an apartment and wanted red drapes for the apartment that she needed. Her want was at the same time and corresponding to her need. Drapes go hand in hand, side by side with modern dwellings with windows She didn't need an apartment and want a younger, handsome lover. Lovers and apartments don't match, they aren't aligned, because anyone can get their kicks in a car or in an alley or in a minister's office. That need and want aren't parallel. But drapes and apartments with windows line up side by side. They correspond naturally. They line up. They fit. Like a hand in a... The lesson is make sure your arbitrary, carnal wants are aligned (parallel) with your needs -- there's a better chance of getting what you want that way. In FERDS no one asked for anything in accordance with God's Will.

Of course, the videos of Professor Irwin Corey were facetious. But THIS is NOT. That Mike self-aggrandizes counters any and all credibility he might think he has.

Right. Either Jesus said this or the author of John put those words in Jesus's mouth to advance his own agenda/theology/narrative. The lesson I take is clearly not the one the author of John intended, the lesson religious leaders feel justified to teach. Like I said, the author is positioning himself against Thomas, so he tells this story and puts those words in Jesus's mouth to bolster his position. The words belief/believing/believe do not occur in the Gospel of Thomas. An observation I find interesting. Yeah, John is obviously different from the synoptics. And only John has Jesus giving very long speeches. It seems unlikely to me, especially given the dating of John, that very long dialogues and soliloquies would have been recorded accurately, or recorded at all. If any sayings of Jesus were preserved by oral tradition, and then written down, the shorter sayings would be the most likely to endure, it seems to me. None of this is to say that I don't find value in John's Gospel. And that value is not dependent on its historicity. Do I find all of what is written in the Gospels to be credible? No. For me the value of Mythos transcends historical credibility.

In Power For Abundant Living (PFAL), Wierwille said he saw unbelievers manifesting more abundance than the believers. Was he talking about spiritual abundance? If so, how was that possible?

I've spoken to Mike on the phone. For what it's worth, he only had one voice. :) Hey, back on the topic of Ralph Dubofsky's horses hit story about SIT, anyone have his father's name or the years he taught at CCNY? I tried googling "least competent linguists imaginable," but nothing came back. Ditto for "linguists who wouldn't recognize a Nobel Prize winning paper falling into his lap." Zero results.

142. PFAL = landlords No PFAL means you don’t need to have a landlord if you don’t want one.

You are patently wrong !!!!!!! I think what you’re good at encoding is converting the twisted theology of a megalomaniac-drunken-liar-money-grubbing-plagiarizing-sexual-predator into some kind of obfuscating bull-$hit that you like to push on Grease Spot. Keep your damn mutating toxic folders infested with the inner demons of wierwille to yourself. Without opening a single page of the collaterals I can cite numerous references of wierwille’s fixation and promotion of greed and materialism - because I’ve had that cultic propaganda drilled into my head. Challenging the reader to think bigger for whatever their hearts desired by asking “are you limiting God?” Tempting the reader toward greed and materialism by instructing them to “get clear on what you want in your mind” what do you think - we’re morons? why do you think there was so much disappointment and disillusionment in TWI and why most people only lasted so long - and then left or slowly faded away because wierwille promised so much but his “law of believing” , positive affirmations techniques , and tithing / abundant sharing / law of giving and receiving delivered nothing!

So what?

Thanks - I hadn't noticed this about Mike but I've been learning not to give many of his posts my complete attention.

But that is exactly what was promised in PFAL - book and the movie - I can still hear wierwille's envy coming through loud and clear when teaching on John 10:10 when i looked around the community and saw unbelievers with all their abundance - Mike minister to thyself - come out old foul and turd-like spirit of wierwille