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Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.

It is almost impossible to overstate how much this reeks of bullcrap. I'll be gentle: If Euclidian geometry were wrong on one point, Euclidian geometry would be perfectly content to remove that one point and salvage all the others. This is not true of PFAL and God's Word. By PFAL's standard, if the wrong pronoun is used in the wrong place, the entire word of God falls to pieces. Nothing in Euclidian geometry makes that kind of assertion about the whole of geometry. Further, let's dispense with the intelligence-insulting conditional "if" in your opening sentence. We produced more than 30 such contradictions and errors, even after handicapping ourselves with a ludicrously generous definition of "error," and for you to come here 20 years later and say "IF there are contradictions" is such a craptacular crapfest of crappy crap that it needs to be flushed before toilet paper is applied because no septic or sewage system could handle the volume. By the way, to avoid an allegation of plagiarism, the old poster Mr. PMosh gets partial credit for the preceding paragraph. If PFAL were God-breathed, it would be correct about the characteristics of the God-breathed Word. And if it were God-breathed and therefore correct about the characteristics of the God-breathed Word, it would share those characteristics. It doesn't. We've demonstrated it time and again. In 20 years, you have not adequately addressed a single demonstrated error/contradiction. You just pretend they don't exist. Dodge. Distract. Deny. Never admit an error is an error. It's dishonest handling of "The Word" and it would insult our intelligence if it were possible for us to think any lesser of your tactics.

Not only does scripture interpret itself, it writes itself and reads itself. Similarly, poetry interprets itself, writes itself and reads itself. Or, art interprets itself, paints itself, views itself. See? Isn't that just wonderful!! Bless your little hearts. I wish you could read it in the original.

I came over here so I wouldnt have to respond to you at all.

Excerpts from the first draft for a totally revised burnt orange book “Power For Materialistic Living Today”, page 3, Introduction: The Materialistic Life …This post literally changed my life. My extraordinary life first began on Myspace, plodding ahead with keeping up with the Joneses; but somehow, I lacked a very materialistic life. Then one time I was especially alerted when I read on social media that there was a man with a Th.M. (a degree in Materialistic Theology) who said he had come to give us an even more materialistic life. I was stupefied into submission. I looked about on social media and compared my current Facebook account where I post mostly pictures of myself. I could see that many online communities were manifesting a more materialistic life than I was. Thus, I earnestly began to pursue the question, “If this materialistic specialist came so that men and women might have a more materialistic life, why is it that my selfies on Facebook do not manifest even a materialistic life?”

Is it my imagination or do many of these letters have the same specificity of a daily horoscope? Vague missives designed just for you. Well, you and roughly 1/12 of the entire planet.

I'd give that claim a LOT more credence if it had a matching track record. If there were no Actual Errors for an Actual Errors list, I'd say that was remarkable, to say the least. pfal- and all of vpw's teachings- were visibly flawed- visible unless one refuses to consider the possibility they were flawed. For most people, that wouldn't really be a problem. Anyone teaching can mess up (although this particular field calls for harder work at quality control than some.) It's only when someone goes around saying God Almighty was personally involved with it, so it has no errors, THAT is when the errors REALLY become an issue.

How do deaf people speak in tongues? Asking for a friend.

Looks like they are just reading the book and too damn happy. Nothing "today" about it.

I laughed out loud on that one...because its TRUE! Too bad Spin Doctors name is taken. It's Wierwille and the Spin Doctors!

"I wlll teach you the Word as it has not been known since the First Century." Umm.. the Word was not known in the First Century. Most of it was not written in the first century. And no one had a collection of all the documents. "Exactly!" The Bible teaches that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Wierwille tells us God reached him at a point he no longer believed the words Holy or Bible on the cover of the book. The ministry of VPW was NOT the ministry of a believer. It was the ministry of a con man who wanted "abundance" and no longer believed the Bible was holy. No wonder he scratched out verses and replaced them with "literal translations according to usage." In the end, he had no more respect for the Bible then than I have now. He was a counterfeit.

https://www.heraldopenaccess.us/openaccess/dissociation-and-confabulation-in-narcissistic-disorders Narcissists and psychopaths dissociate (erase memories) a lot (are amnesiac) because their contact with the world and with others is via a fictitious construct: The False Self. Narcissists never experience reality directly but through a distorting lens darkly. They get rid of any information that challenges their grandiose self-perception and the narrative they had constructed to explicate, excuse and legitimize their antisocial, self-centred and exploitative behaviors, choices and idiosyncrasies. In an attempt to compensate for the yawning gaps in memory, narcissists and psychopaths confabulate: They invent plausible "plug ins" and scenarios of how things might, could, or should have plausibly occurred. To outsiders, these fictional stopgaps appear as lies. But the narcissist fervently believes in their reality: He may not actually remember what had happened-but surely it could not have happened any other way! These tenuous concocted fillers are subject to frequent revision as the narcissist's inner world and external circumstances evolve. This is why narcissists and psychopaths often contradict themselves. Tomorrow's confabulation often negates yesterday's. The narcissist and psychopath do not remember their previous tales because they are not invested with the emotions and cognitions that are integral parts of real memories.

C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance. twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him. But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise." How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word? They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. Saul of Tarsus joined them - a former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof. The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.) So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not. vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."

B) The alleged promise was a lie. Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.

All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before. A) The miraculous snowstorm never happened. There was NO report of actual snow anywhere near where this allegedly happened. When it supposedly happened, he didn't even tell his own wife it happened. Come on, that would have been the first words out of any spouse's mouth that evening. ("Honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today...") He never claimed it until decades later. He couldn't keep the details of the miraculous event straight, even. When he first began making this claim, he said the sky looked BLACK with all the heavy snow. This, BTW, isn't what it looks like for even the heaviest snow. Later-probably because he learned that doesn't happen- he switched to saying the sky was WHITE with snow. I'm sure details can get lost over time, but if a miraculous event that turns the sky all one color, you'd at least remember the color. Finally, this wasn't the only time vpw claimed a miraculous snowstorm. In fact, he did it whenever it was convenient. When he added special significance to the minister's conference where he met Stiles, vpw claimed that the entire city was snowed in completely. He was unable to get out because planes, trains and buses were all stopped due to heavy snow conditions, a blizzard. This was a rather big lie, and one that was checkable. When someone spoke to him about it, he didn't say "I was there and saw the snow and walked in it, check again", he immediately switched his story to prevent trying to contradict the weather report. He immediately began claiming the snow was an angelic apparition- angels made him see snow that wasn't there, and when he phoned transit places, angels answered the phone and lied to him. (He would rather have us think angels lied than that he lied.) In reality, not even a single FLAKE fell from the sky in that city that day, and the temperature didn't reach freezing. This wasn't the last time vpw made up a convenient snowstorm, even. A poster here once noted that vpw was supposed to visit their area. Instead, he phoned and said that he WANTED to fly there, but he was located at a bad snowstorm and he was told it was unsafe. The poster checked the weather in vpw's area at the time, and there was neither snow nor storms predicted. So, the entire snow part was a lie. Without that, there's no 1942 promise. However, even if it was possible for there to have been a snowstorm (it's not possible), the other problems with his story would be enough to discredit it. There WAS no 1942 promise. vpw was NEVER some great one. pfal was NEVER some great class nor great study materials. It was all built up as a con-and not the most secure con, either. It needed lots of outside help to prop it up.

Word salad is a great way to deal with rejection.

So, let's sum it up. You know, math. If you don't believe that pfal and the collaterals and vpw and, of course mike are not breathing out god's word then you are going to endure the wrath of god. Too funny

The first problem we have here is "According to the Univ of Life teachings by VPW on 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians." Did you actually go back and check this statement for accuracy in any way? How does VPW know that Paul, Silas, and Timothy formed an Epistle comittee to discuss revelation that Jesus Christ gave to Paul? Is there a chapter and verse? Can we see that historically? Serious questions. Follow the logic: All scripture is God breathed, it's given to holy men of God who were moved by holy spirit. Why would Paul need to talk it over with Silas and Timothy? The Church epistles are new light. None of the information existed before it was given by Jesus Christ to various epistle authors - it was a mystery hidden in God! What would Timothy and Silas do...proovide accuracy checks somehow? She most definately did not take part of any process even remotely similar to anything we imagine Silas and Timothy did with Paul. For one we don't really know what they did besides what can be inferred from a few scriptures, the rest is conjecture. Way publications is a department where editors aren't even allowed to talk to one another during work hours. You think they are in there having lively discussions on biblical accuracy? Ha! They are treated like kids in there, heck, they had to sign in and out to go use the bathroom. It's one of the most mundane, heavily micromanaged departments around headquarters. Do you think they sit there and do developmental edits for content accuracy using the Bible or something? If anything comes up they query their supervisors in writing and they compare the points in question with other way ministry publications for accuracy. When ministry publications do not agree amongst themselves (which was often) then the issue is passed over to the research department. The research department was ONE part time person when I was there! Everything the so called research department does is subjec to approval by the directors. Do you see the glaring problem? They don't take it to scripture in any meaningful way. They ues their own proven ministry research to double check their own publications to make them all agree. The biggest cover up pulled off by the way international is editing VPS's works for the past 40 years to make them look legitimate when in fact they were a cobbed together, plagairaised mess.

What are the odds water is wet?

Yet there is no Easy way out.

you mean with something like... Sunday Night Teaching duct Tape

You hit the nail on the head. I was honest enough to make a clean break with the way international in 2008 and I also avoided offshoots, though I was recruited by three of them when I made the mistake of reaching out to see what they were about. They wanted me to goto work for them. Sorry...not in the cards. It's a tough pill to swallow at first when you cut ties and are back to being an average Joe instead of some spiritual heavyweight kicking it in the cornfields of Ohio.....im rolling my eyes as I type. But seriously, once I checked my ego at the door and realized I had always been just like everyone else then life was a lot easier to adjust too, and a lot more enjoyable than it had ever been. I also sorted through the various theological points I learned from the way international and discarded a lot of things that have not stood as scriptural. It's a tough process all in all. However, I can say on the other side of the process I am a stronger Christian than I have ever been and more humble than I have ever been. I am a happy guy these days.

One has to wonder what else they think they can do? Isn't being a formal cult big shot a limited resume? Imagine being white haired with no skills other than manipulating people. Other than politics, what else is there for them? So sad. Like being the last professor of Soviet economics. When your grandkids look at you, what do you say? I preyed on innocent people and other people's spouses? I realized way too late in life that I add no value to society? (I also have very little in social security and am therefore living in your basement) For me, I apologized to anyone I harmed, tried my best to make amends and have tried really hard to be a good and kind human being since TWI. I wasn't for a while for which I will be eternally ashamed. But to double down on that s**t show? SMH....

So funny! I didn't have a particular K&P sketch in mind, but I love their dark satire, and I was imagining vp's narrative as a 1st draft from which they could work. The BS translator suits that little charlatan. ALSO, I imagined vp's fictional story as a Family Guy cutaway. if one can read vp's narrative through a glass of Light, one can see the darkness of his lie. Satire is one way to shine the Light of Truth. Victor doesn't scare me, he doesn't teach me, he makes me laugh - I appreciate dark humor. "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy." John 10:10 Victor opens PFAL with John 10:10, but almost no one recognizes that by this verse he is introducing himself.

And teaching leeching ministry.

Was that meant to be sarcastic? He didn't have a "research ministry." He had a deceiving ministry. Now, who would that be from? The father of lies, perhaps.

The Old Switcheroo In PFAL wierwille said: you tell me what you think of Jesus Christ, and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually. How cults work: you tell me what you think of wierwille, and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go in The Way International.

It seems there's no reason at all to believe the India trip experiences. It's too conveniently inconvenient to verify. After that segment in PFAL, one of the sycophants at my "class" told a story about the "healed" Hindi's daughter being present at an advanced class or something at headquarters. That same flying monkey rushed to show me a photo of the 18th century French cemetery after the 4 crucified segment, as if that was evidence of anything at all. You can't believe your way to Truth. Belief is not required to find out what is true. Only a lie requires belief.

I Cor 3:17 God chose the figure of speech personification in an extended allegory here. OT times people had a building associated with worship. The new gospel of Jesus Christ has the collective group as personifying worship of God. When Christians gather it is something God loves, it is kind of like He is saying enjoy each other that’s the worship I want. Not all the Towers of Babel man constructs.

I have been doing the same thing, in essence. I get tired of reading my Cambridge wide margin at times, with Bic 4-color fine point pen notes all over the text and margins to supply better renderings. What I am slowly doing, mainly for personal study and easy flow reading is making the MVB, or Mike Version of the Bible. It's just a VERSION, and nothing God-breathed, but some of it is! Here is my handling of 1 Cor. 3 and it's house building imagery, remembering that Jesus was a house building type of carpenter, and used a lot of house building imagery in his teaching. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal! For whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? For while one says, “I am of Paul” and another “I am of Apollos” are you all not carnal? Who then is Paul? …and who is Apollos? Just servants, by whom you all believed, even as the Lord gave to every man. I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then, he that plants is no big deal, neither is he that waters; but God makes it all grow. In all this, he that plants and he that waters are unified and equal in their focused goals. HOWEVER! Every man shall receive HIS OWN reward according to HIS OWN labor. For WE are construction workers together with God, and YOU GUYS are God’s lush acreage, YOU are God’s strong family farmhouse. According to the grace of God which is given unto me as a wise contractor, I have laid the foundational class, so each student can build on the solid concrete. But every such homeowner needs to be sharp, and careful how they build their cozy hangout for God. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that’s already poured, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any of you build upon this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, or with wood, hay, stubble… it’s going to eventually be obvious who cut corners, because The Day will bring it all out, and into the open, and make it totally obvious. This cleansing fire will do the job, and the fire shall test every man’s work of what quality it is. If any man’s work survives where he has built, he will feel richly rewarded. If any man’s work shall be burned up, he shall suffer serious losses! HOWEVER! He himself shall be rescued! He will be cleaned up by this cleansing fire. Don’t forget that you are the temple of God, and that pneuma hagion from God dwells inside you! If any man cheats in building the temple of God, this cheating shall God’s fire destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple you ARE! Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seems to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may REALLY be wise, for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He tricks the wise in their own craftiness.” And again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.” Therefore, let no man glory in men. For all things are yours! Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Peter, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours! And you are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

This is precisely why Mike and his bloody "Easter eggs" that "doctor" hid in his various books annoys me so much. Who the h3ll needs to hide "God's secrets" when God himself wants to reveal them to us and so states, very plainly, very many times?

Have you checked them for grammar errors?

Funny thing is dispensations didn't exist as a formal doctrine until John Nelson Darby in the 1800. BTW - the link I am posting is simply a random link. There's a lot of sources out there that documant the history I am referring to. I have no affiliation with then, and nor do I NECESARRILY agree with them...lol Dispensationalism doctrine, or administrations, as we know it didn't exist in the first century. So the 1942 promise falls flat on that note too. Think thats a pretty big flop though...God would teach VPW the word like it hadn't been known since the first century and one of the doctrines God taught Wierwille didn't exist before the 1800s.,,,not the only doctrinal point either...law of believing fits here as well. https://christianobserver.net/the-history-of-dispensationalism/

It's like splitting (black and white thinking) . . . The reasoning behind each is Word Salad.

So, if you want to receive something, you need to get a clear picture of it, stay focused, confess positives, renew your mind, speak in tongues, etc. But, if you fear something, there's no escaping it. It will find you. Live in fear of whatever it is you want to receive. BOOM! Works for saint and sinner alike,

I think one of the big attractions of PFAL is the promise of divine knowledge…special revelations…secret knowledge…Gnosticism incognito. And I believe one of the big retention tactics of TWI is to engender an us-versus-them mentality…which can often lead to a persecution complex… Joseph Smith claimed the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on Earth in History of the Church by Joseph Smith . The doctrines of Mormonism began with the farm boy, Joseph Smith in the 1820s in Western New York during a period of religious excitement which is known as the Second Great Awakening. After praying about which denomination he should join, Smith said he received a vision in the spring of 1820. Called the "First Vision", Smith said that God the Father and his son Jesus Christ appeared to him and instructed him to join none of the existing churches because they were all wrong. During the 1820s Smith chronicled several angelic visitations, and was eventually told that God would use him to re-establish the true Christian church. Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon was translated from writing on golden plates in a reformed Egyptian language, translated with the assistance of the Urim and Thummim and seer stones. He said an angel first showed him the location of the plates in 1823, buried in a nearby hill. With the assistance of Martin Harris, an early follower, Smith began dictating the text of the Book of Mormon on April 12, 1828. Although translation was interrupted by persecution, Smith's continued employment in order to support his family, and Harris's loss of 116 pages, the Book of Mormon manuscript was finished in June 1829. Smith said the plates were returned to the angel after he finished the translation. During the time Smith said he possessed the plates, 15 people were allowed to witness their existence. From: Wiki - Mormonism Mormons have Joseph Smith’s vision and golden plates…TWI has wierwille’s snow job and plagiarized material with a side order of spiritualism, Gnosticism, and Fundamentalism. An “us vs. them” mentality is an essential ingredient in the recipe that makes up cults. A persecution complex is optional but common. Both create stronger group cohesion and a group sense of identity. Both support the cult leadership in controlling the narrative and beliefs of members. Both aid the cult leadership in separating their members from the world at large, which in turn, is important in perpetrating cult mind control. Additionally, promoting the specific behaviors that stimulate opposition in outsiders (which results in a opposition and a persecution complex) also aids the cult leadership in creating separation, and thus empowering the leadership to control minds. An alienated group is an isolated group. Isolation supports information control, and reduces outside social influence. Yes, cults bring upon themselves the opposition of outsiders by having stimulated that opposition. They do it to serve a dark agenda (aware or not, control is a dark agenda), and the reap the consequences. Cult organizations that violate the standards of the surrounding culture are causing the conflict by having violated cultural standards. All cults operate the same way. They differ from one another only in nuance and style. Cult mind control is one thing. Quora – cults have us-versus-them mentality and a persecution complex

Great catch. If WE can do so properly, I suppose we wouldn't need Wierwille's or his lackeys to do it for us. Hence, they were able to keep the REAL underlying purpose of the cult, human need for belonging, obscured so they didn't have to disclose it up front.

“Scripture interprets itself” is nonsensical – it implies no other agency is needed. Consider some definitions from the internet for interpret, translate and interpreter: Interpret: explain the meaning of information, words, or actions; translate orally or into sign language the words of a person speaking a different language. Translate: express the sense of (words or text) in another language; to express in more comprehensible terms: EXPLAIN, INTERPRET. An interpreter is responsible for facilitating communication between different language speakers by translating information from one language to another for easy comprehension. ~ ~ ~ ~ Note in all of the above there is an intermediary or go-between involved - a person who acts as a link between people of different languages. In a sense translators of the ancient biblical manuscripts are bridging the gap between the original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek and the modern languages of various cultures like English, Spanish, French, etc. I believe the phrase “scripture interprets itself” is something wierwille erroneously bastardized from Bullinger’s works. In Bullinger’s “How to Enjoy the Bible” the idea is expressed along the lines of “these are the keys to interpreting the Bible, paying attention to the verse, context, previous usage, etc.” It’s a given that a human’s cognitive skills are involved rather than expecting inanimate words on a page to do the job. In other words what Bullinger was saying is "To do it properly and logically this is how YOU should interpret the Bible". That's a big difference from the befuddling nonsense that wierwille was teaching

Learning is pretty much Axiomatic. Sounds complicated, but not really- one assumes that a few set of rules or tenets are true, or commonly agreed upon. And include agreeable assumptions. Then you build your whole existence or Theology based on these few "irrefutable" truths.. Euclid's successors figured that they could explain it all without being able to draw a straight line.. they abandoned the parallel postulate. Some fantastic results followed. But it did not explain everything. Then come Godel. The tenets of any closed mathematical system cannot be proved by the axioms of the system. Some among us are trying to do the impossible here.. Some think that the Axioms are sacrosanct. But Axioms are pretty much self-assured truths. They only have relevance if one assigns it to them. Same works for Religion.

In case anyone is late to this 20-some-odd-year-old "conversation," the real problem is that Wierwille in his writings which ARE allegedly God-breathed provides us with very specific characteristics of the "God-breathed" word, characteristics his own writings do not live up to. We have cited multiple examples, any one of which would disqualify the thesis that Wierwille's writings are God-breathed according to Wierwille's outline of the characteristics of God-breathed writings. The preferred method of dealing with these... let's call them Actual Errors in PFAL, has been to dodge. Distract. Deny. Anything but admit an error is an error. I swear I am not making any of that up. Anywho, My views have changed dramatically since we first engaged in this debate. I've come to the realization that the only thing Wierwille wrote that was genuinely true was that he reached the point in his life where he no longer believed the words "holy" or "bible" on the cover of the book. Everything he said and did in his life from that point forward is consistent with a con man milking gullible people for everything they're worth, abusing their sincerity for his own personal profit. But to be certain, one can remain a faithful believer in Christ while also realizing that Wierwille's characteristics of the God-breathed Word not only don't apply to his own writings, but they don't apply to the Bible either. Because the Bible is not God's Word. I'm not saying that because I'm an unbeliever. I'm saying that because if you read the Bible, you realize very quickly that it does not consider itself God's Word. It doesn't even consider itself a thing. The Bible is not aware of itself as "a" book. That's why Wierwille can say he didn't believe the word "holy" (because his education showed him it wasn't) or "Bible" (because that gives the 66 documents a unity they never had in authorship or compilation). Wierwille came to the same realization I did. He just chose to milk the church where I chose to leave it. The Bible is not the God-breathed Word even according to the Bible! God's Word, Biblically, can be learned from reading the Bible, but they are not the same thing. They do not pretend to be. When you see it that way, contradictions and errors are just things to ignore. Mistakes made by men making a good faith effort to communicate God's will. Nothing falls apart if a preposition is out of place. Luke and Matthew can just disagree about what happened to Judas, neither of them knowing for sure because they didn't know any apostles. Biblical errors and contradictions are the natural result of different authors writing about the same characters decades apart with conflicting sources of information. And Wierwille's errors can just be ignored as the growing pains of someone who adjusted his teaching as he learned more, whether he was sincere about it or not. But Wierwille's books are God-breathed? Nonsense. Not if Wierwille was right about what God-breathed means. And you can bank on that regardless of how you feel about my current beliefs.

I have no desire to read the book. If there are "MANY", as you say, a listing of them should be a simple task.

I'm curious. How do you "stretch" a coffee pod?

Let's hope they got rid of the red drapes, Johnny Jumpup, Maggie Muggins, and some of the more obvious errors. No doubt they've also reworked the Orange and White books. Do they still push the collaterals, I wonder? I won't be signing up again to find out!!!!

Hi Mike, I sincerely wish you the best and a speedy recovery from eye surgeries. It’s unnecessary for you to trudge through the points of my long-and-drawn-out-posts – I do apologize for the length of my posts – I’m still learning how to make my point…and it’s also tough when I want to cover a lot of ground – but I appreciate all you’ve said here. Maybe one of my problems is I tend to talk AT you instead of dialoging WITH you. I may be having a miraculous and hilarious moment of clarity as to the recurring issues I have with trying to get my point across to you - . So, instead of rehashing what’s gone before maybe we can try a simpler approach going forward…In my opinion – I think these points might help make for more productive discussions – and I’m just as guilty as anyone else in violating or disregarding these points: 1. Grease Spot is a bunch of discussion forums. just bear that in mind when you promote something or run an idea up the flagpole. other folks may not feel the same way you do about a particular point or your “promotional”. I have no problem with you or anyone else promoting PFAL. But remember a particular point may have sold you on PFAL, but it might mean little or nothing to others. Speaking just for myself, at its best discussions / debates are a chance to unpack our beliefs/opinions and those of others through questions and challenges. If others acknowledge you’ve made a valid point, bask in the glow of success. If on the other hand others shoot a bunch of holes in your argument – accept that and move on to explore other items. 2. Let’s shoot for a real dialog instead of talking past each other. It’s not a discussion when two or more people talk about different subjects, while believing that they are talking about the same thing. Someone may bring up a valid point about an error in logic or doctrine in PFAL. It makes no sense to try and counter that by saying “you folks don’t see the greatness of PFAL because you focus on the shortcomings of the messenger.” 3. Let’s find common ground - opinions or interests shared by all involved in the discussion. That may be a tall order – but instead of going all over the map – let’s try to limit it to only one or two things. If there’s a thread that asked what good things you got out of PFAL, I would mention several things: PFAL demystified the Bible for me, turned me on to Bullinger’s works (especially where he focused on the more technical stuff of the biblical languages, textual criticism, and literary correspondence – I’m not really a fan of his dispensationalism, and dubious theories like the supposed 4 crucified with Jesus Christ) , and PFAL also got me interested in the philosophy of religion. Now it’s been some 48 years since I first took PFAL and there’s been an evolution in my belief system – but those things still hold my interest even though they’ve developed into more complex studies. I will usually give credit where credit is due – but nothing is perfect – so when a poster’s argument is based on PFAL being the gold standard, I feel compelled to challenge that too besides whatever point they’re trying to make. 4. Avoid hidden agendas. Even if one doesn’t have a hidden agenda – it can seem like there is one if a person keeps bringing the discussion back to the same thing. (like my example in # 2 , someone points out an actual error in PFAL and someone else counters with “you folks don’t see the greatness of PFAL because you focus on the shortcomings of the messenger”). One-track-mindedness is often a telltale sign of a hidden agenda. When someone cycles through different tactics with the same end in mind, it tends to give me the feeling they’re trying to sell me something or sway my thinking. If something a person says doesn’t ring true – I tend to feel they’re being disingenuous and are trying to manipulate me. Shields go up and I’m preparing to launch countermeasures.

Enlightenment does have a cost..

Very jaded view, Bolshy. Maybe some males - husbands - would think the wife is the boss. That's not what marriage is supposed to be. Not a "cult of two."

Dude....the main opening riff and subsequent verses are heavily inspired by Rod Stewart.

Great point and I appreciate the feedback! I was a little wordy and could have been more concise. I did mean to say it that way to emphasize the need for adoration by some way corps. So while way corps are safe and free to leave at anytime, many of them (from my own personal relationships and from being way corps) will not leave because they will "lose their precious" - and that is a position of authority with an audience. So for a group of them to all leave at once and start a new splinter; they safeguarded their positions.

Well, the dissent had been building for years. Most of the way corps who left would not have had the guts to bail on their own. I did that in 2008 and was happy with obscurity! Most way corps still crave a lectern and some people to admire them and that they can boss around. The exodus actually started with an advanced class grad who mailed an anon. letter to Rosie the RIveter enumerating many typical grievances. Same ole same ole: STS sucks, way mag sucks, everyone is micromanaged, etc. However, Rosie's goofy a$$ thought the letter came from one of her very loyal cabinet men that I won't name. She put him through holy heck for no reason at all. Raked this man over the coals really bad. Other letters followed from a group of way corps and I guess the damn of dissent broke from there. So as time went Rosie, Rupp, and the gang started calling in corps who had signed the subsequent letter(s) of dissent, of course seperated married couples from one another, and interrogated them. They marked and avoided a bunch of corps during this time, which again, was extremely stupid for them since they don't have that many corps to go around any more. A lot of your average followers of course followed their favorite way corps over to revival and restoration. I went to a couple fellowships over in Indy at the urging of a former friend. They were typical twig fellowship formats from the days of old with more room for people to express themselves and such, but same doctrinal package that wierwille pieced together. Same errors, etc. I never went back and that was at least four years ago. As to what took them so long? Most didn't have the guts to push the envelope on their own but when others started doing it the whole gang jumped in when they felt safe that they could remain relevant to somebody. That's my opinion, but Im pretty sure it's fact based on a broad scale.

Now if you could just get them to cover their mouths you might be on to something.