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I had the forums hosted by others for a number of years. We were shut down when Twi made complaints. This happened, I believe, twice. So the solution was to have my own server. And then we wouldn't be shut down. I covered the costs out of my own pocket up until a few years back. I moved from a physical server to a virtual server a number of years ago to reduce costs. Donations are completely voluntary, you are under no obligation to donate. I chose the most reliable companies, not the cheapest so there would be the least downtime. Companies like SiteGround are great, but they can shut you down. I have to ensure that the site can't get shut down. I've used PHPBB and I've found that Invision is more robust and have better support when you need it.

This is more a suspicion than an observation, so take it with a grain of salt. I think part of the problem in discussions about "critical thinking" is a lack of agreement on what "critical" means. It sounds to me like one person is using it to mean "searching for and finding fault," while another is using it to mean "examining the argument and determining whether its logical bases are flawed. Someone who is engaged in critical thinking is NOT looking to find flaws or fault. He's not being cynical. If you're not engaged in critical thinking, you can be suckered into anything. If you are engaged in cynical thinking, you won't believe the truth even when is is staring you in the face. Anyway, just a thought.

I also give monthly to Medicine San Frontiers aka Doctors Without Borders. Why? They're definitely not a Christian organization. Why? Because I'm so thankful for the extraordinary access and free healthcare available to me under our National Health Service. Some people have to walk days for medical treatment and even then it's not good. MSF provides services in remote areas, free of charge. I can't help those citizens directly, but indirectly via MSF works for me. And, of course, because God makes his rain, his blessings, fall on the just and the unjust. He has compassion on the needy. He doesn't expect payment, just thanks, and sometimes he gets it.

paw, I am a relative newcomer and a techie. In my zeal to be helpful I obviously have only been insulting. For that I am truly sorry. I come to you with my hat in my hand and my head held low. Rocky is correct - this is something I should have done with a private message. But since I insulted you publicly I apologize publicly. I realize, too late, that you have many years of experience with this site. My good intention was no excuse for being a knucklehead. I hope you do keep the site up, but if you decide to shut it down please don't let it be because of my stupid comments.

Pay no attention to shiftthis. He has the credibility of a chia pet. (No offense to chia pets.) I wish you well with your situation.

Not for everyone, WW. But yeah, I get what your'e saying I think. Your "selective memory" may parse the experience one way, but someone else, particularly someone who actually had an experience with VPW's "system" and it's "perfect" status as you called it, or otherwise will have theirs. In fact I think a person's actual experience is going to be primarily for them to evaluate. They may be wrong or right by any number of values including yours and my opinion and informed evaluation - but it's theirs to have. And I would add in my own sphere of contacts I would say there are people who see their past experience differently than I do, and who in fact see certain things more favorably and positive than I do, or would and vice versa. I've come to understand through extensive conversations with them - as friends and not to debate or condemn or even arbitrarily correct anything but just to share the loving friendship we have - that they do think differently than I do about certain things. I offer my perspective and where I think it's a matter of "handling the Word of truth" I do my best to help where I can but it's up to them to consider and decide. Interestingly these are not all cut and dry matters looking at it within people's lives and not as an academic reconstruction of a past I have only heard about. And to be clear, I have NO skin in this game, theirs or any other, other than to put forth my own ideas and information. I am still not a member of any Way or ex-Way ministries, fellowships, groups, churches or organizations, formally or ex officio. I'm still me. And I can promise you that barring a hand written granite card from God showing up on a Grand Canyon wall addressed to me saying do otherwise, I have no intention of joining in anyone's effort to restore, revive or restuff and pickle anything to do with The Way. I'm just fine, thankya. I do know some of these people being named and have varying interests in their well being but overall I'd say I have an interest for anyone and everyone to be well and learn and enjoy the life God has for them.

With the emphasis on how freaking perfect vpw's system allegedly was, nobody's eager to REMOVE or REPLACE it. To keep the money moving and the people in their seats, they want to claim to just "revive" and "restore" the "classic" twi- since selective memory makes that a paradise that in few ways resembles the actual experience.

Paw, thanks for all you do and have done. Gsc helped free me from twi, and being free i seldom post anymore. Over the past decade GSC gave me a voice to expose what I witnessed during my years in twi. I can honestly say I kept no secrets and did all i could to expose twi. So I completely understand you need to do what you need for your own reasons and peace of mind. Whether you continue with GSC or free yourself from the hassle, thank you so very much. Peace!!

Sure, thanks. I've picked that up, yes. I think you're pretty astute in your estimation that all of this is different for those who had experience with how all this went down over the years we were involved. While that teaching is Vintage Way and actually fairly consistent with what is taught by many other non-Way sources, there's one part that is easy to gloss over and actually freaks a lot of old timers out when they hear that it might not state exactly what VPW taught about it, and that's his teaching on 2:15, "study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that doesn't need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth". Once I got it clear for myself my Bible didn't exactly "fall to pieces", simply because my understanding was different, rather it came together right in front of me. Whenever I hear Vintage VPW teachings being repeated, I'm reminded of this. Bear with me if you would. VPW taught 2:15 as a foundational scripture for every Christian, every believer, and his own research and teaching ministry. "Rightly cutting" the Word of truth, described by him as the exact "working" of scripture by the "workman" to properly "divide it", sort it out, parse it out to line up properly "just like in the original". 2:15 is carved in stone for those of us who took PFAL in the 60's and 70's, and who remember that story about Mrs. Dotsie VPW cuttin' that pie of hers so accurately. In fact, further study over the years has led me to some additional understanding on this - first that "study" means exactly what he taught, "spoudazo", or "earnestly endeavor".....so it isn't specifically saying crack open the books and start studying, Paul is saying to "Work hard" to do something......and to be a "workman".....the kind of workman referred to is someone like a laborer or a field worker. We already are told in 2:6 that "the husbandman that labors must be first partaker of the fruits". The workman is a farmer, vineyard tenders, laborers, those growing a crop, tending a field, bringing up a crop, fruit.......so we can read it as "Work hard to show yourself approved to God by being a worker that doesn't need to be ashamed (of his work)..... Rightly dividing is the single word orthotomounta, or orthotomeo per many sources and it means among other things "to make straight and smooth" as well as "to cut straight ways, to cut a straight path, to proceed by straight paths, hold a straight course, and equivalent to - to do right". So we have "Work hard to show yourself approved to God by being a worker that isn't ashamed of his work, making sure to hold to a straight, right course with the Word of truth"...... There's a better translation of that I've worked up, I'm doing this from memory, but that's the basic idea and if put forth that way is truer to the context of chapter 2, which is handling the behaviors and correct actions of a church leader in the church, with others. It's not talking about academic study, it's talking about accurately "handling" God's revealed Word, of how it's lived and taught - not a mechanical process of efforts to set it straight, separate it or literally "divide" it. To this we can consider Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.", and then John 1:23, ""I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Make straight the way of the Lord"...... Here the word euthyno is used, meaning "to make straight, level, plain, to lead or guide straight, keep straight"....... I'd also have to consider the use in chapter 2's context the usage of the word "husbandman" - Jesus compared God to a husbandman in John 15 - “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit” ........A husbandman cultivates the earth, his plants, and naturally expects them to produce fruit as a result of the amount of effort he has invested in them. Our heavenly Father, the divine Husbandman, seeks to produce fruit through us as we ... abide in Christ. All of which leads me to understand that ll Timothy 2:15 is talking about bringing people to God through Christ, "showing them the way", to make the way to Him clear, to help others through what we teach and what we do to come to Christ. As if to say "here He is, this is who He is, this is the Way".....Remove obstacles, clear the "way", make the path clear and open. Work hard to do that, be diligent in bringing forth fruit. This involves much much more from a person than teaching if they really want to have skin in the game. Timothy is told a lot about that, how to, what to do, what to look for, etc. etc. Teaching isn't excluded, far from it, but it's not limited to public speaking. I'm NOT saying that we should never study the Bible, or never attempt to do the work to allow it to be so clearly and plainly understood that it can literally "interpret itself", nor am I saying that there aren't many wrong interpretations of the Bible, resulting in wrong teaching that makes it hard and difficult if not impossible to come to God through Christ and that those do need to be handled as part of "making that way" straight - but all of this fits very well with the words of Jesus when He said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but through me"....

Taxidev, I've spoken to a couple people who were at the Florida Labor Day conference. As to the teachings, I doubt the majority of what was taught would seem foreign to anyone who dates back to VPW's early ministry years, specifically the early Way Corps that were centered at the Farm and heard him in various settings settings ranging from the BRC, "Night Owls" in the Woods, under the "Apple Trees", Corps teachings and the many times he taught on other occasions and I'd also include Walter Cummins' teaching in that mix. The content followed a similar path that he took on the topic of "the Hope" and the presentations themselves, while unique to the individuals presenting, were very similar to his style and the style that was developed later by Craig Martindale, WITH THE EXCEPTION that there's a noticeable lack of the insulting, degrading motor-mouth childish imprecation and meaningless innuendo that he developed in his latter years at the lectern. For example Moynihan's teaching on ll Tim 2:8-19. He held forth in a very compact 30". It's a very simple setting forth of those verses, and in the context of the theme of the weekend, "the Hope", carries some significant, relevant points. It carries the context of what VPW taught to the 4th Corps, in his Timothy teachings, which I was there for as were the Moynihan's who were also in residence at that time. A minor point but worth noting about those Timothy teachings is that the 4th Crops started as a 2 year program and early in the first year the 3 year program was put in motion (which eventually became a full 4 year plan, including a pre-Corps year, a res-year, field "Interim" year and then a final year in res.) The original intention was to complete the study with VPW of both l and ll Timothy with the majority of it being done in the first year, but it extended out over the entire 2 in res years. Walter Cummins handled a lot of material too. My point is that from my standpoint, hearing what Moynihan taught, it's a pretty systematic rendering of what VPW taught, with an emphasis on the 5, arguably 6, encouragements that Paul gives Timothy in that chapter. My point - I'm not a fan of the Moynihan I knew years ago or have heard about from others more recently but I don't really know him at this point and arguably would have to give him the benefit of at least recognizing he finally left/got booted by/extricated himself from that snake pit at the Way. Saying that, I wouldn't have any problem with anything he taught, as one example of what was set forth that weekend. In fact, it's a teaching that nearly any Christian, AKA "Mystery minded" believer as he called it, or "those faithful followers in the household" or whatever context they choose to put it into, would benefit from hearing. Aside from that his presentation style is one that is respectful of both material and audience. What's not to like? It's certainly not the only place that could be heard, but it was the place it was heard that day, there. I do want to also note, I heard a Pastor of a church who is completely disconnected from any Way history, people or teachings - no exposure whatsoever - teach essentially the same thing a few years ago. In fact, I've heard that taught and taught it myself, many times, and covered the same ground, without any specific adherence to anything VPW taught. That's because what he taught, what I've studied, what others have studied, will be pretty much the same in those verses if they're just read and not interpreted or placed into a self serving context to make a point. I've spot checked some of the others earlier that I was interested in, I don't have anything to add really, other than the "simplicity" of God's Word, salvation through Christ, is a living simplicity, not a doctrinal exposition. It's very very simple to understand what we are to do if we simply see what Jesus Christ did and bring the message to others by being the ones who don't simply talk to them or shun them when we think it's necessary but rather prepare, engage and support, which is what Jesus Christ did for the many weak, suffering, hurting people of His time, and for all time.

Critical thinking skills are crucial for people who want to avoid the very human condition of being subject to con games. Wierwille was a con artist. Martindale, though he exercised misdirection more often by way of bullying, was still a con artist. TWI splinter groups are con games. The truth isn't hidden now for people who actually are interested in it. For those who are not, they often resort to calling critical thinking and analysis "speculation." Your analogy about "evil persons" changing and then invoking Saul of Tarsus is a logical fallacy and unrelated to the discussion on this thread. But you'd know that if you weren't actively avoiding critical analysis.

Unfortunately there aren't very many religious organizations that don't ask for money and all seem ready to accept it. Some teach the tithe as (insert any number of doctrines here), others sell products. Most accept donations. Jesus Christ accepted donations but He didn't fund brand a "worldwide ministry of hope and deliverance" or whatever and run it with donations. By all appearances He and His followers lived pretty basic lives, didn't accumulate possessions, buy land or property or invest or for that matter, loan. To me it IS a fundamental issue if a religious business asks for and accepts donations from people. The IRS doesn't require a group of people who form a "church" let's call it, to apply for any exempt status or to classify themselves as anything. In fact, it's only after a certain amount which I think is $25K that they recommend an organization file. If they make over a $1K on unrelated activities they have to file. There's nuances to it all and a lawyer or good accountant could advise on best steps to take but the truth is, if a group of people wanted to meet formally and informally to share their faith and paid their own way doing it, the government doesn't want or need to know about it. Once a group of people "form and file" with an external licensing agent (IRS) they can accumulate and use tax free income and those giving the group money can deduct it from their taxes. But there''s no need to do any of that to read the Bible, study it, teach it and conduct activities around a shared common interest. Compare a small group of Christian believers to say, the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts can be tax exempt, and are asked to file now using a 990-N form. But a group of families don't need to be tax exempt to get together to camp, or learn carpentry skills or build go-karts and have picnics and sleep overs with the kids. The issue of "mammon" and serving God is huge - today many churches of all types would consider it persecution if their tax exemptions were threatened, I'm sure. The real question isn't why do they have it and who's being served by it - it's why do it at all? When a Church like The Way restricts it's members from giving anywhere else and penalizes them, socially or otherwise, if they do, is that really in the spirit of our laws, or the Bible's teaching for that matter? This is all so embedded in our country's religious culture it's difficult for people to see a way out. Which is exactly why as of 2020 I will be fully set up to receive any and all offerings from anyone, for anything they believe in, don't believe in or would like to consider either way, including money, precious metals, cars, recreational vehicles, homes, property or anything else you'd be blessed to share with someone who, like me - socks - could accept and use in a fashion that will reflect the appropriate "no strings attached or accepted" philosophy of giving. (For all who have recently left the Way and are still working out what it's like to decide what's funny or not for themselves, that last paragraph is meant to be a joke, comparing accepting money from those who....well, just give it a day or two and if it's not funny to you, it's not. Enjoy the rush of fresh air freedom brings!)

I belong to two churches here. One I rarely support except for special things. Nobody ever enquires. There are occasionally invitations to donate. The other, that I regard as my main church, is a group of churches very active in supporting the community. Again, regular attendees are invited to donate, but nobody knows who does or doesn't, and there's absolutely no compulsion. I give, because I WANT to, because I know it costs money to help those with nothing. To provide the weekly free meal and hangout time for very lonely, or rather strange, or really impoverished, people hereabouts. To run after-school clubs, homework club, toddler group for young mums. To pay for the outgoings on our building and to heat it. Why would I NOT want to support that? And every year, the church treasurers present a report to explain how money is spent and answer any questions. Oh, and both churches support external groups - partner ministries overseas and such like. Sometimes an individual or couple undertaking work in Christian or non-Christian communities overseas. The question isn't whether one should donate or not, but is there compulsion? And who benefits from the money received?

That's certainly a big part of it. Perhaps another major reason was the sense of belonging we had as a part of what the cult labeled the "household of God." For many years before and during my time in TWI, I couldn't figure out why people stayed in denominational Christian churches that had glaring major flaws. They often overlooked those flaws because of their "tribe." They had people they felt comfortable with, they felt they belonged.

Rocky, excellent post! I know the GSC, has helped me move on with my life. I know my time in the TWI, left me with a lot of questions; why did I put up with so much Donkey Dung, for so many years. I think that the GSC has helped my process my time with that cult. Quite honestly, I had some great times in TWI, and met some wonderful people, for which I am thankful. However, now I know that I had to deal with a lot of Bullsheet also. For example, there was a lot of pressure, to ABS, and go WOW, and Corps, even when it was not in my best interest to do so. I took the AC, and it was a huge waste of time, and money. But, I felt a lot of pressure to take it, so I did. Big mistake on my part, but it was a learning experience for me. When I was finally ready to join the Navy, Brenda H from the 14th Corps, wanted me to go WOW again, and I told her, I wasn't going to go again, once was more than enough. So instead of going WOW, or Corps, I joined the Navy. For me, it was a good decision. But, I know from reading the GSC, many people regret the years they spent in TWI; they could have used those years getting an education, or building their careers. They will never get those years back. Rocky, I think most of us stayed in TWI, because we loved God, and wanted to live a Godly life. However, VPW and his inner circle, lived ungodly lives, and destroyed those around them.

It IS relevant. But we mustn't judge whether others are as able as Elizabeth S to move on and take charge of their emotional destiny. Thanks for sharing the link. I dare say that most of us who have been here at Greasespot Cafe HAVE moved on and no longer allow twi to control our lives, our moods, our interactions with others. But it's a process that takes different times for each individual. One thing Elizabeth had and has is strong family ties with tremendous emotional support. That's one of the things GSC can help with to some extent.

Let's boil the cabbage down, shall we? We were The Way's sales force. No salary, no commissions, just ridicule and chastisement if we failed to meet sales quotas. It's important to understand that PFAL was not the main product. PFAL and the accompanying series of classes were the enticement The real product, or goal, if you prefer, was to find people who would faithfully donate 10, 15, 20% (or more) of their income... paycheck after paycheck, month after month and year after year. Yes, they made a profit on the classes, but it was chump change compared to a lifetime of handing over your hard earned cash. It was a scam, folks. The sooner someone comes to grips with that realization, the more time and resources they have left to rise back up from the rubble. Sunk Cost Fallacy

I am soooo glad to be snuggled into a vibrant Christian community, where words are profound yet simple, and actions abound in service to others. I know this : if I'd known then of church communities like those I'm involved with now, I'd have called some of the things I saw when I was first beginning to get involved with TWI for what they were - unkind, unloving, egotistical. Scratch the surface of R&R. Hmm. Wonder what's underneath?

Hey, Chocky, your response seems a bit OTT. You've enjoyed posting here for some years. Why notoffer help in some way - financially or as an administrator, or in some other way.

Pawtucket has taken the “brunt” of this place from the day of it’s inception. Financially, socially, and emotionally. This site has benefited tens of thousands of people through it’s 18 year history. I have never questioned the choices Paw and Greasy Tech had to make through the years, to secure the site and it’s contents from the constant attacks from those destructive cults who have been vividly exposed to the light of REAL FACTS and not mere obfuscation and cult triple-speak which offshoots need to survive. From Wierwille to Da Dancing Forehead and his Board Of Terrorists, to Rose-a-lie and Donna and the Rise of The Lesbian Mogettes, through Waydale and the Allen case, to the disaster of the last 18 years of incompetence, hubris, psychosocial insanity, and the institutionalization of dictor paul’s personal peccadilloes of Nazi fascism, serial sexual predation, perversely distorted and self-serving “Christian theology”, along with continued outworking of their own most distasteful psychiatric dysfunctions, to the phony selection of Yves-de-liar as the “new prez” and the defections, mutinies, and splinters which followed, The Greasespot has been here! Why try to fix what ain’t broke??? Like Rocky, I am not financially able to donate much at all. But, i’d rather see the Cafe close down than tell Pawtucket how I think he should run his site. That’s just me. And, YES! I am personally biased. The man has endured so much beyond what many of you and I know. He is a good man. He is a giver. Thanks Paw for all you’ve done and Godspeed in whatever you choose to do! PEACE.......

These stories didn't happen, but they cleary did. That is more difficult to describe. The stories came from somewhere, a long time ago. Without the printing press, or an initial single writer, it seams. And arguing, "The sun didn't move for a day" . . "that's not scientifically valid" . . ."yeah but einstein if you cross your eyes" . . . this could go on ad infinitum. Is that the right tactic?

I've got to tell you about this guy I was "witnessing to" or whatever it is you want to call it one time. I was having lunch with this Moslem - very kind soul. The conversation came around to God and religion. I was describing to him my faith. He related to me some of his faith, and where it led him. One very interesting path is that he received a telephone call from someone from his home country (Iran) for charitable donations. Instead of blowing them off or blindly giving money he decided he wanted to be involved. The charity was one that placed homeless children from back home in Iran with families living in the United States that were seeking adoption. So he became involved, ended up donating quite a bit of money and was personally responsible for placing 6 children in adopting families. We had a great time discussing God, truth, man, religion over smoked meat in Montreal Quebec. He told me he was always skeptical of those whose livelihood was enhanced by the growth of their flock, as they were a biased witness. He equated it to a company he was working for giving an opinion about it. Was I being an ambassador for Christ towards him, or was he being an ambassador for Mohammed towards me? Or both? What I do know is I seldom remember a man's words, but I always remember a man's actions. This man's actions helped me remember his words.

Cain was the one with the internal struggle. As with Adam. As with Eve. As with the serpent. Abel didn't have a struggle as the other four did. Just an observation.

After the fall, Genesis mentions five characters. Adam. God speaks to him directly. Eve. God speaks to her directly. The serpent. God speaks to him directly. Cain. God speaks to him directly. Abel. F@#! that guy.