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He didn't mention Cartels, I'd just assumed that. Had no idea Cartels were a modern innovation, thought they'd been around since forever. We're going to meet the dude again, all of us, and we're going to live together with him forever, you know, for eternity. I'm trying hard to get my head around that and learn to put the past behind. It isn't easy sometimes.

Waxit: "Rocky, first of all Mark is not my enemy and secondly I definitely do not have the final word on what pleases God. Only the Lord Jesus Christ will judge rigteously in the end Only God knows who will and who will not enter the kingdom of God. I dont know whether you give a hoot about the sabbath which is a really important topic but instead you are picking to comment on something that you should think about before you tap on the keyboard To be honest, I did not want to comment to Mark's reply because I thought he might be in the twilight zone but i thought wait a minute, he needs to be shown so he can think along the correct lines outlined in the word of God So this is actually loving the person enough to show him and not ignore someone. It was not delivered with hatred but love " {Waxit, Welcome to the Grease Spot Cafe! Here, many different opinions and positions are allowed. People can think for themselves and don't usually have to toe a company line. Christians and non-Christians discuss what interests them. It seems like this is as new an experience for you as it is for a lot of ex-twi'ers (as well as those still in.) When you're communicating with people who may not agree with you, it is NOT effective, usually, to get on your high horse and condescend to say that you're right, they're wrong, and they'll have to get with your position or risk displeasing God Almighty. This is a common method of communication for twi innies and survivors. It is largely ineffective outside of twi and twi-style groups. A lot of us posted like that to a greater or lesser degree once- myself included. I recommend you reconsider if you want anyone to agree with you. I might think you have legitimate points to make, but few people will bother to agree with someone whose posting style makes it look like he's full of his own self-importance. It's most likely that you'll slap a label on my post and on me- which will make it easy to dismiss what I'm saying. It's possible you'll consider whether I have a legitimate point. I recommend you think on it. Paul was all things to all men so that by all means he could save some. Perhaps you could benefit from a little flexibility in your communication style.]

Waxit: "Saturday is universally recognised as the seventh day of the week. Sunday is recognised as the first day of the week." [When I see people's "rationale" for something as "it need not be defended" or "everyone knows this", I tend to get suspicious, It's not how someone explains, it's how someone ducks explaining something. In all the print calendars I've seen for the past decade (and longer), nearly all of them run Monday to Sunday, and posted work schedules have likewise been "Monday to Sunday" Sounds like your position is not " universally recognized."

There will also be people who will refuse to agree with your understanding of something in the Bible that you emphatically hold true but may indeed be your misunderstanding. Just sayin'. Pride goes before the fall. See Proverbs 16.

Names of days are arbitrary; in fact, most days are named after pagan gods. When a named day falls is arbitrary. If you're going to get really precise, you have to count the 7th day from the original first "day of rest." Don't envy you that task. Please have a little more respect for people here. You have knocked some very thoughtful people. We have reached our current views after long heart-searching, after sometimes painful journeys out of the bullying and dogmatic approach of TWI. No-one here needs anyone else to try to order us to think in a particular way. By all means, present your argument - for discussion, not for dogma or doctrine. I know you are passionate to understand God and to do your best. Please accept that others are, also, and we are all at different places of our understanding of God. Do what's right for you, now.

"Trust me you have to change your attitude to one of meekness and obedience like Moses and become humble to God's word if you want his blessings." What about Matthew 5:44-45? 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Trust me, Waxit, you may or may not have the final word on what pleases God and what doesn't.

Am I understanding your intent Waxit to be that if anyone disagrees with your understanding, they somehow aren't "in fellowship" with God? Or some variation on that theme? Or perhaps you meant to ask which part of any of them does anyone understand differently than you?

What is considered the first day of the week? Is it Monday or Sunday? As far as actual work in the United States and globally, Monday is considered the first day of the week regarding work. And then Sunday is the main day off with regard to work with our seven day weeks that are part of our calendars. Although grocery stores are still open even on Sunday so that people can go there to buy food to eat. Regarding comments, I think Twinky has made some good points here. And because of what we have today spiritually through Jesus Christ, making Sunday or Saturday a special spiritual day is insignificant to me. Through Jesus Christ, and God's gift of the Holy Spirit, every day can be spiritual to us. The question to me is are we getting enough sleep at night? We need sleep at least once a day to energize our lives because of our mortal in flesh human bodies. In the future when we get our Christ like spiritual bodies we may not need sleep then.

Don't you mean, Bored of (Mis)Directors?

Q: What goes well with Coronavirus? A: Lyme disease. Edit: I wanted to edit this to assure you I take this grave situation quite seriously. Sometimes, though, a bit of dark humor can help to minimize the stress.

well I think they were all being very cautious - I didn't see anyone drinking Corona

One of the things we should remember is that when God got around to fashioning our world, he did things - from rest to rest. And the evening and the morning were the first/second/… day. Your day starts from rest (sunset the day before, reset through the night, work through the day, then returns to rest in the evening. Too often we think our day starts when we get up. It doesn't it starts earlier than that: when you rest. And your working week also starts from that position of rest: a time to relax, unwind, enjoy God, breathe, before a full-on week … then rest again.

Oh goodness, 34 pages. Can you summarise a little, Waxit? So some might say, does that refer to the then Israel, or to the "spiritual Israel" meaning all believers now? You need to look at (if you don't mind the expression) The "heart behind it." Work six days, have a rest and spend time with your family. God knows it's important to have periodic rests. He also knows it's important to keep family structures together (heck, he invented "family") and all hanging out together, eating together, is important for family cohesion and family values (one of which would be respecting the Lord). Equally, however, there are some that did not "keep the Sabbath" on the "Sabbath day." These would include those working in the temple - all the Levites and other officials. We don't know when their "day of rest" would be; perhaps the day before, though that's off topic here. Exodus 31:

I saw this revision of a familiar motto on Stephen Colbert - - collaboration in light of physical distancing: United we stand divided we fall

I'll join you for that tea, George. Well, I went to church this morning. Online church. Those necessary recorded their parts - prayers, notices, songs, and of course sermon (very good, encouraging - we have a great new vicar) - and there's a chat box at the side where the congregation can log in and greet others, and another more private chat box for those who want prayer. It works really well, there's still a real sense of community and shared worship, and yet personal succour.

I look at the 'last days' as being anytime directly after the day of Pentecost...the Messiah could have come back at any given moment.

Nevertheless, keeping physical distance (6 feet) from each other is the MOST important thing we can all do to limit the reach of the virus in this pandemic.

Hi George. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we've met, long long ago. Gartmore, Birminghamor possibly London?

No problem. You didn't misinterpret my post. I just dragged it off-topic. I like the "holy kiss" advice, also. (Won't you be glad when it's OK to pick your nose again?)

Am I? Ok. This actor or actress was in: Les Miserables (not the musical) Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl Shine

Hi Allan It's Gabriel from way back to TW in New Zealand Yes- I have no idea why i stuck on to The Way for 5 long years All i can say is I had been totally brain washed by a devious VPW and in my opinion TW traps people and makes them feel guilty if they ever wanted to leave. Apart from a few people like you I never saw love in TW and it felt like a gestapo- I dont know why i never spoke up and why I never got out of it. I know that when Alan was in the way corps with his family, TW had already been bad mouthing so badly about Alan among the people in NZ so that nobdy would believe him when he opened up on the truth - It was all control, force and compliance and they always use scriptures that backed up what TW and the enforcers wanted- TW interpretation of scriptures for instance how a good soldier of The Lord is always validated when you follow what they want- Because if you don't then you miss out on salvation- Get that logic- Thats why it's a dangerous cult and once you opt to live in a way household then you are further mind controlled The instructions come from the top and filters down and I think behind your back, they keep tabs on you. If anyone has got allan's contact details- I believe he is currently in Australia. I would appreciate if you could let him know that I can be contacted via greasespot or through my face book- just type in Gabe Doraisamy or let me know how I can get in touch with Allan

Ain't that the truth!

He and Barbara once travelled up to Aberdeen from Gartmore to visit my home church. Found out something rather interesting about him afterwards while chatting. Before he got in the word, he ran drugs across the Mexican border. Considering his Cartel links, I think he did try to do something worthwhile with his life. God will sort it all out after the return, so relax, everything will be put right. If he can sort things out for me, I don't think anyone else will be much of a problem.

Hello, George Welcome to GSC. You and I undoubtedly have differing opinions on many topics. That's OK, though. Healthy discussion of differences leads to deeper understanding of the issues and the individuals discussing them. As you pointed out, bickering is counterproductive and to be avoided. It looks like you've put a good deal of thought into your online endeavor. I commend you for your effort and enthusiasm. Things here can seem contentious from time to time. It's all part of the process. We're glad you've decided to get on board. Feel free to ask questions and disagree whenever you feed the need. All we really ask is for the conversation to remain civil and productive. I hope you will find your time here productive.

By Reese Frederickson, Pine County Attorney The naïve part of me believes that once evil is locked away, closure and healing can begin. But, reality is complicated, and the scars from years of trauma remain even after achieving justice. Reality delivered a blow last week when I learned that Jessanna “Jess” Schlinsky took her own life. She was 32 years old. We sent the monster who had sexually abused her for all her teenage years to prison three years ago. Although the crimes were in the past and her abuser will spend many more years in prison, the suffering loomed large for Jess every day. It ultimately proved insurmountable. Jess, along with Lindsay Tornambe, bravely exposed cult leader and traumatizing narcissist Victor Barnard for the years of childhood sexual abuse suffered at his hands. Jess and Lindsay grew up in Barnard’s cult that was located on an isolated camp in Pine County. When Jess and Lindsay were 12 and 13 years old, respectively, Barnard separated them from their parents, forced them to reside in a remote spot of the camp, and began raping them. The sexual abuse and Barnard’s control of their daily lives continued for the next nine to ten years until the women escaped the cult. Jess and Lindsay’s quest for justice took many years. Barnard was eventually charged, caught hiding in Brazil and extradited to Pine County in 2016. As county attorney, the case was my responsibility to prosecute. (continued at the link above, worth the time to read)

This situation is beyond terrible. Shame on the silent ones who fail to warn about any abusive Way offshoots like that one was. In 2016 I wrote a blog about Barnard's arrest. Recently I updated that blog to honor Jess. https://charleneedge.com/update-rape-victims-demolish-cult-of-way-corps-graduate-victor-barnard/

One of these days.......I need to take the time to see what I can find concerning these mentors.

A Tribute to E.W. Kenyon E.W. Kenyon: A Tribute Essek William Kenyon (1867-1948) was considered one of the all-time greatest of God's teachers of the 19th and 20th century. He did more to teach and spread the truth of Christ's finished work on Calvary than perhaps any other ministry in the 20th century. Although he spent many years as an evangelist, and then a pastor, he was known as the teacher of teachers. Over the air on his radio broadcasts, he was known as "the faith builder." Every preacher and teacher has his mentors. For E.W. Kenyon, these were the leading evangelical preachers of his day: D.L. Moody, the American evangelist; Dr. A.J. Gordon, under whose ministry he rededicated his life to God; Dr. A.T. Pierson, one of the strongest voices for evangelism and an associate of D.L. Moody; and others of Moody's "warriors" such as R.A. Torrey, S.D. Gordon, A.B. Simpson, G. Campbell Morgan, Andrew Murry, F.B. Meyer. These were all household names in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Articles by many of these writers can be found in our Library. Having a long and fruitful ministry for over 50 years, the Word of God was taught by this devoted man of God with unusual clarity, as deep and profound revelations of the Word were preached and taught in the Divine simplicity of the Gospel. His sermons were filled with incredible love, inspiration and Divine anointing, and were all geared towards increasing the faith of the hearers. In the days when many holiness pioneers were teaching sanctification as a second work of grace, Kenyon boldly heralded the biblical truth of sanctification by the finished work of Jesus Christ alone. This won a decisive victory for God's people. Kenyon's ministry has inspired millions to believe God for healing, deliverance and salvation all upon the finished work which our Lord Jesus Christ accomplished for us on the cross! E.W. Kenyon was a man of God who lived a devoted life to God above reproach. When faced with the seemingly impossible adversities of life, he conquered them all confidently, and victoriously by his simple faith in the Word of God. Kenyon's ministry needs no other vindication when we realize that his faith teachings have produced the exact same transformations in his converts. It is no small surprise that his ministry continues today, 50 years after his death, through his writings -- which are producing the same faith results in those who read his books! Kenyon's biblical teachings place us into the realm of a superman! John 14:12, "He that believeth upon Me, the works that I do, shall he do also" becomes a living reality! Kenyon's life and ministry was so faith inspiring and uplifting that many ministries today emulate his life and faith teachings! The words and teachings of E.W. Kenyon are quoted by more ministers who teach faith and healing today than perhaps any other minister of the 20th Century! Some have suggested this is a negative thing, but this is a not a negative thing, but a positive one, because it clearly shows how one man of God has influenced an entire generation for God! The Apostle Paul continually reminded his disciples to say just what he said, because what he said was Scriptural! E.W. Kenyon was used by God to lead men back to faith in the Word of God. Men of God such as F.F. Bosworth, who had a notable healing ministry throughout his life, continually referred to and applied E.W. Kenyon's teachings throughout his entire life. John G. Lake was also fond of E.W Kenyon's teachings. The great healing revivalist T.L. Osborn considered E.W. Kenyon one of the greatest exponents and teachers on the subject of Divine Healing in his book "Healing The Sick." E.W. Kenyon influenced a generation for God! In a day when very little real faith in the Word of God existed, E.W. Kenyon began teaching people how to have faith based upon the Integrity of the Word of God alone. He taught and demonstrated to people of all walks of life, how to live by faith in the Word of God, based upon the sole foundation of the Authority of God's Word. He dominated and utterly mastered all circumstances supernaturally by his simple faith in God's Word. You can too! Kenyon's teachings will make your Bible a new Book! If you have never read any of E.W. Kenyon's books, I strongly encourage you to order some of E.W. Kenyon's books [see below], for your faith will be strengthened, Jesus will become an absolute personal Reality to you, and you will truly learn what is is to walk by faith in God's Word! His books will teach you how to have your own faith life, how to be a master of circumstances, how to pray for sick folk and see instant results, and most of all, how to have a close and deep relationship with God through our Lord Jesus Christ! Articles by E.W. Kenyon These extracts are from books and articles gathered from all over the Internet. Some are short; some are long. Enjoy! Claiming Our Rights The Danger of Seeking Experiences Do You Believe in Miracles? God-Inside Minded God Reproducing Himself The Helpless Babe The Integrity of the Word Jesus the Healer The Price is Paid Raised With Him The Reality of Redemption Satan Defeated! This Jesus Kind of Love What We Are In Christ Why Have the People Failed? Books by E.W. Kenyon See the complete collection of individual titles online. This page layout Copyright © 2000 Peter Wade. The Bible text in this

I think it is fascinating to try and deconstruct wierwille’s patchwork theology - though I believe there was something mercurial about him - be it his temperament...mood...thought process...persona ...whatever...I don’t know - I’m not a real behavioral psychologist, I just pretend to be one on Grease Spot ...perhaps "mercurial" might describe how wierwille could assume various roles to fit his agenda (man of god, bible scholar, charismatic leader, a loving and caring pastor, etc.)...kinda like the T-1000 in Terminator 2....ok, that was silly - so here's the real thing where the T-1000 is the tile floor moving like liquid mercury he shape-shifts to move in on his prey. . But seriously - I think you do bring up some intriguing ideas...I tend to get frustrated trying to fathom the rhyme or reason on some of his theology...I mean, he wasn’t an absolute idiot - he had something going for him - after all he had mastered the art of deception ...but thinking back now to some of his live teachings to the corps, PFAL ‘77 and Advanced Class ‘79, I must say :wierwille was sometimes inconsistent in using the principles of interpretation that he himself taught in the original PFAL class and occasionally revealed his incompetency by failing to show the work of how he arrived at a conclusion. I remember times where he would just say “father showed me this”...the reason that bugs me now is because it's along the lines of a teacher suspecting a student had copied off of someone else during a math test - so the teacher asks "the alleged" copycat to "show me the work" and the student can't solve the problems from scratch. busted ! Trying to understand what drove his plagiarism might prove more interesting though. Now I’m no real theologian - but I pretend to be one on Grease Spot . I tend to think the common threads of his patchwork theology were his baser instincts for fame, power and pleasure.... Fame: Plagiarizing the work of others to garner the admiration and allegiance of folks. Power: Construe teachings and policies in such a way so as to manipulate and control followers; use his position of authority to take advantage of others. Pleasure: twist scripture and foster ideas to justify (and also to hide) his sexual predations and lascivious and decadent lifestyle.

T-Bone, that's the only way I've ever done it. I didn't know the other way to get the thread! In answer to the original poster, what I know offhand isn't much. I know that he started "his ministry" while on the denomination's dime. While taking his paycheck for work as their pastor, he was quietly looking for enough material and enough people to make it alone as a separate church organization. (I thought of that while reading the Pillai links above- looks like Pillai- or whatever his real name was- was one of several people making up a sound-alike organization that sounded like an existing, respected church group. vpw might have copied him.) While vpw was doing that, he was trying to make contacts and connections. When he first set up "his ministry" called "The Way Inc" , his correspondence reflected both an ecumenical perspective as well as a Trinitarian one. The ecumenical one made sense to me whether he was sincere or not. If he was sincere, he might have considered an eclectic approach to Christianity. (When we thought he was legit, he resembled this to me.) If he was not sincere, it served him well to claim ecumenism as his ticket to enter where other Christians were. So, he either claimed to be a Trinitarian at the time, or he thought he was one at the time. vpw could always be counted upon to follow odd or idiosyncratic positions. Some of the time, I think it was because he could fake knowing esoteric things if he could spit back something esoteric that someone else said. Some of the time, I think it was because he thought obscure things were more marketable. I think the change in vpw's position was after his exposure to one of B.G. Leonard's books, "The Godhead, or The Water in the Bottle". It doesn't look like the same thing vpw taught, but it probably got him thinking. The exact position he arrived at was not the same as Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, or Bullinger claimed to hold, so I don't know where he got it. He was so famously UNoriginal that it's my opinion he picked it up SOMEWHERE rather than actually arriving at it himself.

Skyrider, WordWolf and any others I’ve failed to mention, I really appreciate the detailed work you all have done regarding wierwille’s plagiarism. I’ve got an open Word doc that I keep amending by copying the link to the starter post of threads that deal with plagiarism – Something I was wondering – there used to be a way you could download the whole thread on the old Grease Spot website – but this new format doesn’t seem to have that feature; if it does, would someone be so kind as to tell me how…I know at the bottom of the page there are various ways to share the page but all they appear to do is provide a link to the page…so again – just to be clear on what I’m looking for is a way I can download the entire thread. ...for now what I've been doing is copying and pasting a page at a time (from Grease Spot to a laptop Word doc); takes a lot of time and since I am a neat freak - I am compelled to reformat and delete all the big spaces in between some stuff. I don't mean to be such a worry wort but I feel if I don't have a neat and complete record of this stuff we're doomed ...just kidding...it felt good to be so melodramatic - even if it was only for A quadrillionth of a second...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PFAL: A plagiarized (stolen) class .... run in a church basement (St. Peter's Evangelical and Reformed Church) .... and one of the new students (Dr. E.E. Higgins) .... introduces wierwille to the influential research of E.W. Bullinger .... whereby vpw gains access to further plagiarize another. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In the Van Wert church basement, vpw ran Leonard's class. No charts. No books. No syllabus. One of the twenty-seven new students in attendance was Dr. E.E. Higgins, an osteopathic physician. She is pictured on page 99 of Mrs. Wierwille's book.....standing behind VPW and next to Dorothy Owens. Mrs. W's book [p.102] ..... "Dr. Higgins was the person who introduced Dr. Wierwille to the great and influential works of an Englishman named E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913). She gave Dr. Wierwille his first Companion Bible, containing the notes and appendix information of E.W. Bullinger, and a copy of How to Enjoy the Bible, also written by Dr. Bullinger." "After reading these books by Dr. Bullinger, Dr. Wierwille wanted to consume his Journal of Biblical Literature, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible and his other writings. Dr. Wierwille obtained the book The Witness of the Stars which aroused his curiosity concerning the star that led the wise men to the house of the young child Jesus. He read all the research he could find....."

Obviously plagiarism was the linchpin of wierwille’s “ministry “.

Thanks WW........yes, the different names of Pillai is very interesting. During the 1940s thru early-'50s........wierwille found "influential" men via three ways: Radio broadcasts.......programs and announcements Church congregants and others......relaying information of upcoming speaker, event or book Happenstance or divine intervention (as wierwille often claimed) Clearly, the E. Stanley Jones Ashram was announced well in advance.....as church leaders from near and far registered for this conference and traveled far distances to be there. This was in July 1944.......during gas rationing and World War II. Those four contacts: 1) Jones, 2) Moseley, 3) Daily and 4) Clark led the 27 year old wierwille to other men, books and writings. As noted above, every Sunday morning ( 1941, 1942) before wierwille went to church or his office, he listened to Rev. Charles Fuller's radio program......"The Old-Fashioned Revival Hour." This evangelist, Rev. Fuller, reached a vast amount of people with these radio broadcasts. On page 94.....Mrs. W depicts that Albert Cliffe was "a cold Episcopalian" until he heard Fuller's morning sermon......a phenomenal thing occurred. Cliffe was healed and born again......and later, wrote Let Go and Let God. Albert Cliffe was an invited guest of the Spiritual 40 Club in January 1953...and taught extensively on "The Miracle of Believing." The roots of wierwille's teaching, "The Law of Believing," can be traced back to Albert Cliffe. Another radio program.......E.W. Kenyon's morning broadcast, "Kenyon's Church of the Air." This program was an inspiration and blessing to thousands across the country. One woman who had brief involvement with the wierwilles told them her mother was a member of Kenyon's church......and thus, vpw began studying Kenyon's writings: Kenyon's fixed goal: Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman....." Writings: The Blood Covenant The Two Kinds of Faith The Two Kinds of Knowledge Identification Jesus the Healer Interesting of note, wierwille does not gain influential direction or contacts from the 1948 Pikes Peak degree-mill "educators. " None is recorded. Mrs. Wierwille's book gives a half-page overview of this commencement with a picture [p.67]. The brevity speaks volumes. .

"Fear is the sand in the machinery of life."...E.Stanley Jones Even this quote, for which Wierwille is famously remembered, originated with a source other than himself

Look at this expansive work! How much of it inspired wierwille? How much of it did he plagiarize? E. Stanley Jones books.......... The Christ of the Indian Road (1925). German transl. Der Christus der indischen Landstraße. Jesu Nachfolge in Indien by Paul Gäbler (1928). Christ at the Round Table (1928). German transl. Christus am Runden Tisch. Offene Aussprachen unter Jesu Augen in Indien by Paul Gäbler (1930). The Christ of Every Road – A study in Pentecost (1930). German transl. by H[einrich] Fellmann (1931) The Christ of the Mount – A Working Philosophy of Life (1931). German transl. by H[einrich] Fellmann (1933) Christ and Human Suffering - Hodder & Stoughton, First English Edition, August 1933. Christ’s Alternative to Communism (1935) US title Christ and Communism (1935) UK title Victorious Living (1936) (devotional) The Choice Before Us (1937) Christ and Present World Issues (1937) Along the Indian Road (1939) Is the Kingdom of God Realism? (1940) Abundant Living (1942) (devotional) How to Pray (1943) The Christ of the American Road (1944) The Way (1946) (devotional) Mahatma Gandhi: An Interpretation (1948); 2nd ed.: Gandhi – Portrayal of a Friend (Abingdon, 1993) The Way to Power and Poise (1949) (devotional) How to be a Transformed Person (1951) (devotional) Growing Spiritually (1953) (devotional) Mastery (1953) (devotional) Christian Maturity (1957) (devotional) Conversion (1959) In Christ (1961) (devotional) The Word Became Flesh (1963) (devotional) Victory Through Surrender (1966) Song of Ascents (1968) (autobiography) The Unshakable Kingdom and the Unchanging Person (1972) The Reconstruction of the Church – On what Pattern? (1970) The Divine Yes (1975) (posthumously)

Hey Jim......good to "see" you again. To answer your two questions.......I have, again, searched Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, to attain this information. Yes, vpw was ordained in June 1941 as an Evangelical and Reformed minister. On July 6, 1941 "reverend wierwille" was installed as minister for St. Jacob's Evangelical and Reformed Church in Payne, Ohio. With this little church and limited activity, vpw was in constant search of other avenues and opportunities. Every Sunday morning before wierwille went to church or his office, he listened to Rev. Charles Fuller's radio program......"The Old-Fashioned Revival Hour." This evangelist, Rev. Fuller, inspired vpw with his charisma and moving sermons. In June 1944, the wierwille family of four, soon to be five, moved to Van Wert. The St. Peter's Evangelical and Reformed Church enticed wierwille to pastor their church as it was a bigger church with a parsonage to accommodate his growing family. Van Wert was located on one of the crossroads of America. U.S. Route 127 ran north and south from Canada to Florida, and U.S. Route 30, called the Lincoln Highway, reached from the East Coast to the West Coast. 1) When did wierwille renounce the trinity? As far as I know.......there is nothing definitive in Whiteside's book, The Way: Living in Love or Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, that documents this transition. Clearly, wierwille built his ministry and mystique on "how he took truths from all these sources and put it all together." Even in the vaunted pfal class......there is one point where wierwille gets all hyper-excited and claims of Jesus Christ.......that he is coming back as "God Almighty." In my opinion...........wierwille's narcissism was undiagnosed, undetected and advancing in leaps and bounds by 1972. After power-grabbing the youth minister movements of Steve Heefner [The Way East] and Jimmy Doop's ministry work [The Way West]......wierwille consolidated power and funneled all monies into twi's headquarters. And, with in-residence corps in training (cough, cough)......wierwille's persona as "the man of God" had evolved to the point that he refused to be questioned or reveal his evolving on certain doctrines or beliefs. Others here at GSC might know the timeline better than I........but it seems to me the 1975 book "Jesus Christ is NOT God" was his definitive way of staking out his position that ran contrary to a widely-accepted denominational church doctrine. Wierwille had been searching and learning from his contemporaries since the mid-40s.........and, as documented in Mrs. W's book, most all of these men were teaching outside the confines of denominational churches of their day and time. In conclusion......I would say that attempts to get into the thicket of explaining the "trinity" was something most preferred to avoid. When people are moving thru the struggles of life and living, shortages and famine, the Great Depression, World War II, etc.......perhaps, even clergymen understandably kept it on the back burner. 2) Secondly, did VPW ever mention the evangelist William M. Branham? The short answer is no ........I never heard wierwille, or in his writings, ever mention Branham. Mrs. Wierwille's book gives us a timeline and listing of men who were influential to her husband and there is not even an acknowledgement of Branham. Although this book is sanitized and strategically attempts to prop up wierwille in every way ........it is clear that one of the MAJOR breakout points was in July 1944. Wierwille was a young preacher of 27 years old when he rode with three other people to North Carolina to attend E. Stanley Jones' Ashram ( a religious retreat ). E. Stanley Jones was nearly 60 years old at that time. He had amassed a mountain of powerful biblical work, writings and good will to others.......as church leaders from near and far gathered at this Ashram to learn from him. Young wierwille is among the younger participants and stands in the back row when the picture is taken to document the event. Rufus Mosely was also a key-noted speaker. So, when vpw later boasts of his time with "Brother Stanley"...... it is doubtful that wierwille had any personal contact with him at all. And, if he did, it would have been very brief at a retreat/conference with 220 or more. Rufus Mosely did visit wierwille later in Ohio on two separate occasions......and then, moved on. Starr Daily and Glenn Clark were also at this North Carolina Ashram. So, when one goes to the Founders' Room at twi's auditorium and sees those 12-14 pictures on the wall...... keep in mind, that FOUR of those men were from this one event: 1) Jones, 2) Moseley, 3) Daily, and 4)Clark. Birds of a feather, flock together.........and wierwille was "flocking" with those OUTSIDE the denominational church system, per se. In all this, I see wierwille as a "searching opportunist"......not as someone who wanted to infuse this gained knowledge back into his Van Wert church congregants. His narcissist pathologies were driving his interests and agenda toward a position of power and control over his surroundings, over others. Wrangling with church boards was growing tiresome. With each passing year, wierwille was searching for a path outside the confines of the church.......and B.G. Leonard's class and class-based ministry, in 1953, provided that lane to run in. Wierwille took it (literally). Whether it was another man's radio program, books, teachings or pamphlets.........wierwille garnered from these men, in full. Wierwille did not produce anything original. His claim "to fame".......as he said, was "putting it all together." Mrs. Wierwille's book unveils the timeline, the sequence, of wierwille's gleanings and relationships. Truth be told, some of it was pure happenstance......like when Harry Wierwille was traveling thru Tennessee in 1953 and ran across Bishop K.C. Pillai at a Christian children's camp called the "Tennessee Mountain Mission' [p.96]. Pillai, like other men through the years, was invited to Ohio to teach wierwille and his close-knit followers. In this manner, wierwille accumulated his "wall of fame" of men who were influential to his life. And then, after attending (twice) B.G. Leonard's class in February 1953 and July 1953 in Calgary, Alberta..... wierwille taught this same class for several years. Along the way, he was introduced to Bullinger's work so more research material was added.....and thereby, vpw had enough to RE-package the material. So, after the filming of the 1967 pfal class.......the doctrine was "set in stone." Within years, twi became a closed society...... a cult. .

Thomas, thanks for pointing that out - that’s a HUGE credibility gap!

Both may be true accounts of what wierwille actually said. I don’t think it’s a matter of conflation on wierwille’s part – where he had combined the two ideas. Maybe in a deluded mind that’s usually inclined towards plagiarism the source of the idea for The Way Tree simply “evolved” ... ...and the more I think about it, the imagery of the way tree may very well be the moot point in all this...as far as the structure - how the whole organization was arranged to supposedly function "properly", it does seem to emulate the AA somewhat - although I think TWI's HQ is far more overreaching in authority and control (when compared to the 12 steps of AA ) ....and as far as describing the function of TWI, it's more along the lines of multi-level marketing " ...where the revenue of the MLM company is derived from a non-salaried workforce selling the company's products/services."

And now, each year............more corps exit because the blatant hypocrisy and discrepancies cannot be avoided. What the heck does "way corps" even mean anymore? Does anybody know what time it is? The time for *choosing* has come and gone................and most corps have GONE. Hypocrisy everywhere.......vying over the uppermost seats in the "marketplace" and merchandizing of others. Hq-leadership sit at their cozy desks week after week, year after year........no one inside the closed circle confronts this? Seems like one of the major reasons for moving corps to another city is DAMAGE CONTROL.....another corps couple left. What are the hardships and burdens today? Well.......the constant traveling to meetings and events is enough to keep them jumping thru hoops. The board of directors has nothing of relevance to do but time to sit around and scheme more involvement. Travel here, travel there......burn the tires off your car. All time and labor given to the cult is time stolen from your life, family, equity and retirement. It may not seem a big deal when you are in your 20s........just wait till you are in your 60s. With each passing year......the cult eats away at the fruit of your labor. They store it away into THEIR STOREHOUSE. The theft of YOUR labor is anti-Christian. All those years of running their classes, sponsoring their programs, involvement in "leadership" programs, sales force as wow ambassadors, teaching rehashed material at twigs and coerced to go witnessing at the local mall......was THEFT of your labor. And further.....when you realize the depth of twi's deception, you realize that even giving them your tithe (or abundant sharing - 15%) was not acceptable. Also.....the burden of stress/anxiety of keeping up with BOD demands. Paperwork. Reporting back. Public confrontation in front of your peers. Or, character assassination when you are not there. All the while....there's the burden of defending The Way International's reputation and motive. If they know anything about the other side of the wierwille-equation .....how do they defend that? How do they square that circle.......of ethics, proper boundaries, plagiarism, theft, revisionist history, etc? When corps go witnessing (cough, cough)......how do they withstand the questions when someone goes on the internet and brings forth the DEPTH OF DISCREPANCIES? Hardships and burdens and lies...............OH MY. .

"We can't change the past, Jack; what we can do is choose how we move forward." Isn't life fabulously good when you're free in your head!!!

After TWI through me out most ignominiously, I was desperate and really felt I didn't belong anywhere. I was living in another country with no friends (they'd all been Wayfers) and no family. Happily I'd lived in the other country long enough to qualify to apply for naturalisation. But "belonging" really helped in my slow recovery.

Rocky.......thanks for your kind words. Sorry to hear that you are enduring some personal stress. Life certainly gives most of us its share of challenges.......just today, I learned that my nephew in Nashville, TN had his place of business destroyed by that tornado. Smashed up roof, shredded screen-printing equipment, destroyed material and customer orders............but thankfully, this tornado cut its deadly swath in the dark of night when businesses and schools were closed. Take care Rocky........and March 4th with the sunshine on your face. All the best to you, skyrider

When it comes to giving descriptive terms regarding wierwille..........quite often, I gravitate to words like 1) narcissist, 2) plagiarist, 3) false prophet/teacher, 4) opportunist, 5) misogynist, 6) paranoid personality disorder, and 7) sexual predator. I do not claim to have any expertise in psychological evaluations or clinical study. Clearly, there is lots of overlap in these complex fields of psychological study. Therefore, I usually hesitate to say with any certainty that wierwille was a psychopath ..... But what I did see in wierwille's dominant character pattern was the unique alignment with narcissistic personality disorder ...... where *lack of empathy* is one of the nine criteria listed. And, jokingly........I refer to these 9 criteria as wierwille's "all nine all the time." Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from other people Continually demeaning, bullying and belittling others Exploiting others to achieve personal gain Lack of empathy for the negative impact they have on the feelings, wishes, and needs of other people Fixation on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc. Self-perception of being unique, superior, and associated with high-status people and institutions Need for continual admiration from others Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others Intense envy of others, and the belief that others are equally envious of them And then, there's the moral/spiritual hypocrisy aspect of wierwille.......that takes much of this entitlement to a whole new level. Wierwille utilized the bureaucratic levers of religion to exploit a mass following. In this deception, wierwille was NOT anti-social, crazy or a nut-job. He was methodical and cunning in manipulating others. Wierwille built a pyramid by exploiting youth labor. He was the classic, modern-day Pharisee.......embracing a sacrosanct demeanor of himself (over others). That which is sacrosanct is doubly sacred: the two Latin components underlying the word, "sacro" and "sanctus," were combined long ago to form a phrase meaning "hallowed by a sacred rite." Sacro means "by a sacred rite" and comes from "sacrum," a Latin noun that lives on in English anatomy as the name for our pelvic vertebrae-a shortening of "os sacrum," which literally means "holy bone." Sanctus means "sacred" and gave us "saint" and obvious words like "sanctimony," "sanctify," and "sanctuary." Those last 8 years of wierwille's life (1977-1985) .......he amplified his ancestry, his stedfastness, his calling and his legacy to the corps, repeatedly. Not only did he need the continual admiration of his corps and followers.......he wanted his legacy to be elevated in the pantheon of great men.

Indeed. But at age 22 (43 years ago or so), it just felt overwhelming... but yes, I know now it was a smart move. I almost made it all the way out of the cult that year. After being away for nearly a year, a 7th corpse guy apparently found my phone number (it was listed then) called me and I went back to twi for a few years. Finally made the break after veepee passed.

I don't know a lot about the Way International as far as inner workings. I know what I've read and what I experienced as a child. I've lived with what happened since the early 80's. It happened between the ages of 7-10. I came here several years ago to tell my story and was immediately called a liar. Some did support me, but the experience traumatized me and I left the forums. I'm back because I can't believe more information does not exist. I know that at least one incident happened at Camp Gunnison, in one of the rooms with bunk beds. When I found the group on Facebook, I recognized one of the rooms and was especially triggered by a room with bunk beds. I remembered that room, and I remembered a hallway with a yellow light. I remember much more, of course, but I will not go into details. Suffice it to say that I believe I was sexually abused while there. I've been in counseling on and off for over twenty years. I started having flashbacks long before I ever got into counseling. The things that I remember are horrific, but I know there's much more below the surface. I'm not saying everything that happened to me happened there. In fact, I'm pretty sure quite a lot happened off site. My father was also a pedophile. Everything that happened could very well have happened independent of the group, after all, pedophiles are always looking for places that they can get access to children. I wouldn't have even written this if Lifted Up had not mentioned sexual abuse as children. It's been frustrating to not find other stories like mine, because I know they are out there. Other than the guy who kept "maidens" for himself rather recently (and this came out a few years after my first attempt to reach out here), I haven't seen anything, even though a research book contains a passage about the Way and allegations of child sexual abuse. So I'm rather at a loss. But thank you, Lifted Up, for speaking out. God bless.

Yeah, T-Bone........if followers would only scrutinize [ aka - research ] ..... 1) wierwille's background and 2) the plagiarized work. Ain't it ironic.........folks who CLAIM to cleave to wierwille's research will not research wierwille's background and deception!!

I had a very pleasant splinter group experience and have very little negative to say about it. (It was Vince Finnegan's group) But as I am no longer a believer, I'll just leave it at that.