Leaderboard

Freedom, a new life, a new perspective about God and the Bible An opportunity to love all people, to serve from something as basic as a warm greeting in the morning to saying thank you and please, not being a false servant in a group only to become a leader. A wonderful chance to get closer to my family, that family from which I distanced myself because they did not participate in the ministry.

TWI has changed a little bit during the recent years. But their change its only towards recover the "good old days" of VPW and PRE-LCM. VPW is still the main figure and the functioning of the organization and psychological abuse towards people persists. They're not willing to apologize to people; they only ask them to forgive and move forward "in love" . It's sad, but they demand greater maturity from the "average" believer than they do from the leader. Forgiving someone does not immediately mean restoring the relationship or psychological healing.

Thanks For the Letters Charlene, I'm new in the Forum though I lurked for years. And I left the Way 2 years ago.

I remember, back in the day, there was a twig leaders' syllabus that outlined acceptable behavior at large events, such as limb meetings, branch meetings and so forth. One of the admonitions listed was to "refrain from picking your own seat." My question is this: Are there currently any circumstances under which it's acceptable to pick your seat? Whose seat should you pick instead? (Yes, thank you, I've been told I'm a twisted individual.)

I like Waysider's comment about recovery being an on-going process. I has been for me. While I was writing Undertow, soooo many years after my direct expereinces in TWI, I was still coming to realizations. While the Way organization may be a shadow of its former self, as Wordwolf described it, I think it appears that way because the number of active followers is lower than in its heyday of the 1980s, for instance. Since Undertow came out, I've gotten numerous emails from children and grandchildren of my former Way peers. These descendents read Undertow and are surprised to see how abuse they suffered actually began with VPW himself. Many of my former peers won't admit that, since they still believe he was the man of God. It's sick. So abuse in one form or another has filtered down in their lives from their parents giving them warped doctrines and confusing messages, such as "you're sick because you don't believe strongly enough." The fallout from the "early days in TWI" has domino effects that take time and education to rectify. The thousands of posts here on GSC are evidence of that.

For many people, recovery is an on-going process. Think in terms of something like weight loss. You don't reach your target weight and suddenly abandon the effort. I think there's a bit of a parallel in the comparison, but maybe that's just me.

You can still get the 8 PDF files of letters Wierwille wrote to The Way Corps (1977 - 1981). They reveal the manipulative man he was behind-the-scenes, seeking adoration, using intimidation to get loyalty, and seeking sympathy over his imagined persecution by anyone he considered an enemy. I'll send the letters until April 30, 2025 at 5 pm. How to get them? Send me a message either here on GSC or at https://charleneedge.com If you haven't connected the dots about who I am, I graduated from the 2nd Way Corps (1971-1973), then I was an area, limb, branch, twig leader over the years, married to Tim Bis*op, originally from the Rye, NY fellowship, also in the 2nd Corps, who VPW ordained. I was a member of the Way's biblical research team who worked on the Aramaic projects. 1984 - 1986 until I resigned in protest. That story and more is in my memoir. Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. (2017). It's for sale online in paperback and ebook. The VPW letters to the Way Corps are from my own personal files. I saved a whole lot of material from my time in VPW's cult. Have a great day! Charlene Edge

Thanks, Joe. This is so interesting. One day there will be no living direct connection to vpw. Someone will have been taught directly from Vern, who was taught directly from vpw... the apostolic succession. But won't this be the same "tradition" of "religion" they are always defecating on? Do they believe PFAL is the Word of God? Do they believe PFAL is theopneustos, as Mike does? Either by implication or direct teaching?

Thanks Folks! And Keep it up! It's kinda funny cause I've been witnessing your posts and discussions since 2009 and now we are chatting. I even witnessed the Mike-Wars xD I'm thankful to all of you and especially Penworks for having the guts to write down all her experiences.

Welcome, Joe! It’s a rebirth. Hallelujah! You’ve got to know what’s available before you can get it. I’ll tell you what’s available: Peace, Love, Power, Liberty and Abundance like it hasn’t been known since… before you joined the cult.

You are most welcome. I'm overjoyed at the response to this offer. So many folks want to know what VPW was up to back then. The letters are evidence of his warped (understatement) so-called leadership. He was a needy, little man who craved adoration and loyalty. Seems as if today's TWI leadership still give him that and keep promoting him as some great man of God so as to keep followers involved. Oh, if they only knew the dark side of that man, maybe they'd think twice before giving TWI another cent of their money or another minute of their time.

Freedom, a new life, a new perspective about God and the Bible An opportunity to love all people, to serve from something as basic as a warm greeting in the morning to saying thank you and please, not being a false servant in a group only to become a leader. A wonderful chance to get closer to my family, that family from which I distanced myself because they did not participate in the ministry.

Btw, those letters demonstrate the Victor Wierwille was indeed a cult leader who used (at least) emotional abuse. I am listening to Steven Hassan's most recent YT video. Which includes an interview with Nori Muster, who had been involved in the Krishna cult and wrote a Cult Survivors Handbook.

The following is a flyer I created and have distributed to students and folks who've attended my presentations. Help yourself. What Do You Know About Cults? What is a cult? “An ideological organization held together by charismatic relationships and demanding total commitment.” ~ Benjamin Zablocki, PhD, “Cults: Theory and Treatment Issues.” http://www.icsahome.com/articles/cultspsymanipsociety-langone How do cults recruit? Promises and pressure What are some warning signs? Charismatic, authoritarian, self-proclaimed leader with no check on power Deceptive recruiting (often sincere) Critical inquiry viewed as “persecution” Organized psychological manipulation Emotional, sexual, and financial exploitation Inner circle of loyal followers with secret beliefs/behavior No meaningful economic transparency How do cults undermine freedom? Demand loyalty to cult leader/ideology Disallow freedom of religion (theirs is the only right one) Intimidate to prevent free thought Control personal goals Destabilize freedom of association How can we respond to recruiters? ABCD A - Always research group B - Be firm when refusing recruitment C - Challenge appealing promises D - Don’t tolerate deception, even from a friend Warning: An imbalance of power is an opportunity for abuse. Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International By Charlene L. Edge. Memoir. Paperback and eBook at major booksellers & indie bookstores “… A frank, in-depth account of one woman’s struggles in a controlling organization.” — Kirkus Reviews Gold medal winner - Florida Authors and Publishers Association, 2017 On Book Riot’s list of “100 Must-Read Books About Life in Cults and Oppressive Religious Sects” What it’s about: After a family tragedy struck, teenaged Charlene rejected Catholicism, family, and friends to join what became one of the largest fundamentalist cults in America: The Way International led by Victor Paul Wierwille. After promotion to the inner circle of biblical researchers, Charlene discovered secrets: Wierwille’s plagiarism, misuse of Scripture, and sex abuse. Amid chaos at The Way’s headquarters, Charlene escaped. Why Undertow matters: Each year about 50,000 to 100,000 people enter or leave high-control groups called “cults” (data: The International Cultic Studies Association). Movies like Going Clear and The Path have captured the nation’s attention. Undertow is a personal story about cult recruitment and fear-based manipulation by an authoritarian, charismatic leader. The fundamentalist mindset, espousing certainty about God and the meaning of the Bible, causes untold divisions in families and communities. Undertow shows this pain from an insider’s perspective and that healing is possible. A taste of Undertow: “I gulped down Doug’s words without doing any critical thinking, not pressing him to prove what he said. He was so sincere that I clung to his assertions, like ‘believing equals receiving,’ as if they were heaven-sent.” CHARLENE L. EDGE spent 17 years in The Way (1970–1987). Later she earned a B.A. in English from Rollins College and worked for more than a decade as writer in the software industry. She is a published poet and essayist and a member of the Florida Writers Association, the Authors Guild, and the International Cultic Studies Association. She lives in Florida with her husband, Dr. Hoyt L. Edge. She blogs at: http://charleneedge.com

What Do You Know About Cults? What is a cult? “An ideological organization held together by charismatic relationships and demanding total commitment.” ~ Benjamin Zablocki, PhD, “Cults: Theory and Treatment Issues.” http://www.icsahome.com/articles/cultspsymanipsociety-langone How do cults recruit? Promises and pressure What are some warning signs? Charismatic, authoritarian, self-proclaimed leader with no check on power Deceptive recruiting (often sincere) Critical inquiry viewed as “persecution” Organized psychological manipulation Emotional, sexual, and financial exploitation Inner circle of loyal followers with secret beliefs/behavior No meaningful economic transparency How do cults undermine freedom? Demand loyalty to cult leader/ideology Disallow freedom of religion (theirs is the only right one) Intimidate to prevent free thought Control personal goals Destabilize freedom of association How can we respond to recruiters? ABCD A - Always research group B - Be firm when refusing recruitment C - Challenge appealing promises D - Don’t tolerate deception, even from a friend Warning: An imbalance of power is an opportunity for abuse. Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International By Charlene L. Edge. Memoir. Paperback and eBook at major booksellers & indie bookstores “… A frank, in-depth account of one woman’s struggles in a controlling organization.” — Kirkus Reviews Gold medal winner - Florida Authors and Publishers Association, 2017 On Book Riot’s list of “100 Must-Read Books About Life in Cults and Oppressive Religious Sects” What it’s about: After a family tragedy struck, teenaged Charlene rejected Catholicism, family, and friends to join what became one of the largest fundamentalist cults in America: The Way International led by Victor Paul Wierwille. After promotion to the inner circle of biblical researchers, Charlene discovered secrets: Wierwille’s plagiarism, misuse of Scripture, and sex abuse. Amid chaos at The Way’s headquarters, Charlene escaped. Why Undertow matters: Each year about 50,000 to 100,000 people enter or leave high-control groups called “cults” (data: The International Cultic Studies Association). Movies like Going Clear and The Path have captured the nation’s attention. Undertow is a personal story about cult recruitment and fear-based manipulation by an authoritarian, charismatic leader. The fundamentalist mindset, espousing certainty about God and the meaning of the Bible, causes untold divisions in families and communities. Undertow shows this pain from an insider’s perspective and that healing is possible. A taste of Undertow: “I gulped down Doug’s words without doing any critical thinking, not pressing him to prove what he said. He was so sincere that I clung to his assertions, like ‘believing equals receiving,’ as if they were heaven-sent.” CHARLENE L. EDGE spent 17 years in The Way (1970–1987). Later she earned a B.A. in English from Rollins College and worked for more than a decade as writer in the software industry. She is a published poet and essayist and a member of the Florida Writers Association, the Authors Guild, and the International Cultic Studies Association. She lives in Florida with her husband, Dr. Hoyt L. Edge. She blogs at: http://charleneedge.com

Part of TWI's history is how a wide-spread American belief helped shape VPW's teachings: that America was founded to be a Christian nation. VPW used non-biblical sources (of course) to back up his belief in this. The belief today is held by most Christian Nationalists in America. Many ago, I examined this belief in a paper I wrote for a creative writing class at what was then called Valencia Community College in Orlando, FL. I've attached my paper here for anyone interested in the fundamentalist aspect of TWI. It's the fundamentalism aspect of Wierwille's teachings that you see when he calls Scripture "inerrant" and that is "fits like a hand in a glove." He made it LOOK that way using fundamentalist methods of interpretation that he took from other mens' work. Note - my name at the time I wrote the attached paper was Charlene Bishop. I was still married to my first husband, T*m Bish*p, from the Rye, NY fellowship. We married the day after we graduated from the Second Corps in 1973. In Undertow, I gave Tim the alias of Ed. We divorced in 1991. Cheers! Fund to Freedom_C_Edge.pdf

In FellowLaborers (mid 1970s), most of the houses didn't even have T.V.s or phones. Not that we would have had time to pay attention to the outside world anyway. There wasn't any time to explore anything that hadn't been approved or at least suggested by leadership. It's really kinda scary to realize just how oblivious we must have been. Isolation is a powerful tool.

Timely post penworks considering that similar arguments are being shared openly today. Changing history allows the lessons it taught to be lost and the evil of its past to be repeated which they presently are.

Thank you so much Charity for taking the time to say all of this it's greatly appreciated.

The woman says right away that she was in The Way for 15 years before leaving. She is calling in because her son is now an atheist, and she has some questions. Two important events in her life have to do with her belief in God: one is how she became pregnant after being told she physically could not for medical reasons and the other is her adult daughter being diagnosed with schizophrenia. I'm going to listen to it again but my initial thoughts are that the host gave some rational responses to her questions and doubts. "I Can't Explain My Past Without God!?" The video is 17 minutes long and she does give a name at one point.

Hi Greasespotters, Until April 30 at 5 pm, you can get your copies of these letters by sending me a message through GSC or here: https://charleneedge.com/contact With his permission, here's what Karl Kahler, who just read them, says about these letters: “This stroll down deception lane reminds me that Wierwille was NOT stupid, and far from it. He poured so much energy into grooming his flock, and he was so combative with anyone who opposed him. These letters are a master class in mind control — of the very people he already controlled!

The Adam and Ever story completely falls apart on any amount of inspection. 1. They don't know good and evil. How do they know it's wrong to sin? 2. If the snake is really Satan, then why does God respond to the snake's role by punishing snakes? 3. Whether God knew Adam would sin or not, why put the tree in the garden where he put man? Put the damn thing in Iceland, or Greenland, or Antarctica! 4. Let us make man in our image: God wasn't talking to himself using the royal We. He was talking to the other Gods of the Canaanite pantheon!

Not at all. It is a straight analogy. You said "I do have a question about atheism in general. What is it really? I thought it was not believing in the existence of a god and/or any spiritual being? If that is the case, why the 'F God' to something that doesn't exist? All that really says is atheists do believe in God but hate his guts?" The direct answer to your question is "No, one does not have to accept the existence of a fictional character to despise him." But instead of a straight answer, I used an example. Any example of an annoying fictional character would do. Janice from Friends (Oh. My. Gawd). Jar Jar Binks. Allah. Moroni. Zeus. When an atheist says "F-God," it is not a tacit admission that we believe God exists. Rather, it is an indication that you have imbued this fictional character with traits that are frankly contemptible. A few years back I had a thread going called "Are you more moral than Yahweh." It looked at God's attributes and "morality" as described in the Bible and compared it to the values we hold in common today. It was not an admission that God exists and a finding that your morality is an actual improvement over his. Rather, it was a call to recognize that you don't consider him to be the arbiter of morality any more than I do. My way was just more fun. In short, no, the Steve Urkel comparison is not a strawman. It is a perfectly fine example of the principle that for some fictional characters, the fact that they are fictional is their only redeeming quality.

In the context of your question, God represents a concept. "F-God", in this sense, is referring to the concept, not an entity.

OK, I can hear the song a smidge better this time. The band is LED ZEPPELIN. If not, it Should Be. (What do you mean, it Should Never Be?)

When was the last time you hung garlic on your doorway to ward off vampires? When was the last time you genuinely feared you would get a visit from tge Krampus instead of Santa Claus because you were on the Naughty List? What horrors await you for rejecting Muhammad as Allah's final prophet, peace be upon him? We fear the hell posited by Christianity as much as you fear all those other fates. Which is to say, not at all. And while we may not all muster the disrespect for your beliefs to say "F-God," I will gladly say that based on how the Bible presents him, Yahweh's non-existence in reality is probably his only redeeming quality.

Right. I was attempting to echo that sentiment at the end of my post. One needs to put in the work and be accountable. Nobody can do it by themselves, but no one can else can do it for you.

Not a Dream

I don't know why I am reminded of this, but somehow, someway, I think it's relevant... Lately my som has had lots of questions about why the world is burning and about claims people make and about the manifestation of stupidity all around him. Kids at school regurgitating what they hear at home. His mom and her cult regurgitating what they hear in their echo chamber of mmmph. And he feels baited and tested and awkward. I tell him it's perfectly ok to say, "I don't know." Especially if you don't. That there is a certain power and liberty and freedom in letting go. That there is a deep knowing in the acceptance of not knowing. I tell him not everyone really cares about finding out if someone really can or cannot jump over a barn. I tell him most people just want to beleeve. To find out if someone is worth having a conversation with, ask them, "If you were wrong about xyz, would you want to know?" If the answer is, "But I'm not wrong," walk away.

How will you know the landscape if you can’t use a rake? The rake reveals the landscape. The rake IS the landscape. See how that works with mathematical exactness and scientific precision? So accurate. So, SO accurate. Mmmmph.

Count down to April 30th to get these letters. And the loyalty letter from LCM 1990. I'm getting requests for these almost daily. Not only former Way Corps are asking for them, but others who value them for the behind-the-scenes look at volitile situations in TWI and what VPW really thought and did 1977 - 1981. For instance, how he turned on Way Corps members when they expressed their freedom of speech, etc. I remember wondering why he got so upset and defensive, if truth (which he said he taught) needs no defense? Message me here or on my website at https://charleneedgel.com/contact

It's the rake, the rake and nothing but the rake. You just rake, Baby!

In case anyone is confused, I'd like to clarify. oldiesman confirmed there was a lawsuit that was filed. He did not confirm the lawsuit had merit or that it was factually correct. But, as a point of history, he confirmed that people were saying that at the time.

Express yourself, good buddy!

Con artists use these psychological tactics to manipulate people to believe them every time No matter how smart you are, anyone can be easily swayed by emotions. January 25, 2016 (Inc. Magazine, this article is an excerpt from Maria Konikova's book, The Confidence Game) The confidence game starts with basic human psychology. From the artist's perspective, it's a question of identifying the victim (the put-up): who is he, what does he want, and how can I play on that desire to achieve what I want? It requires the creation of empathy and rapport (the play): an emotional foundation must be laid before any scheme is proposed, any game set in motion. Only then does it move to logic and persuasion (the rope): the scheme (the tale), the evidence and the way it will work to your benefit (the convincer), the show of actual profits. And like a fly caught in a spider's web, the more we struggle, the less able to extricate ourselves we become (the breakdown). By the time things begin to look dicey, we tend to be so invested, emotionally and often physically, that we do most of the persuasion ourselves. We may even choose to up our involvement ourselves, even as things turn south (the send), so that by the time we're completely fleeced (the touch), we don't quite know what hit us. The con artist may not even need to convince us to stay quiet (the blow-off and fix); we are more likely than not to do so ourselves. We are, after all, the best deceivers of our own minds. At each step of the game, con artists draw from a seemingly endless toolbox of ways to manipulate our belief. And as we become more committed, with every step we give them more psychological material to work with. If it seems too good to be true, it is--unless it's happening to me. We deserve our good fortune. Everyone has heard the saying "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is." Or its close relative "There's no such thing as a free lunch." But when it comes to our own selves, we tend to latch on to that "probably." [...] And yet, when it comes to the con, everyone is a potential victim. Despite our deep certainty in our own immunity--or rather, because of it--we all fall for it. [Or in the case of The Way International and Victor Wierwille's private interpretation party, WE all FELL for it]. That's the genius of the great confidence artists: they are, [or in the cases of Victor Wierwille and Loy C Martindale, they WERE] truly, artists--able to affect even the most discerning connoisseurs with their persuasive charm. A theoretical-particle physicist or the CEO of a major Hollywood studio is no more exempt than an eighty- year-old Florida retiree who guilelessly signs away his retirement savings for a not-to-miss investment that never materializes. A savvy Wall Street investor is just as likely to fall for a con as a market neophyte, a prosecutor who questions motives for a living as likely to succumb as your gullible next-door neighbor who thinks The Onion prints real news. **** Cases in point: how many celebrities, with how much money, fell for the sophisticated Ponzi scheme of Bernie Madoff? How many ordinary people spend months or years in Amway or other MLM games before they realize the time and resources they've squandered? How many followers of Victor Wierwille shuffled off to Amway to make money because they were comfortable with the business structure? How many more followers of Wierwille shuffled off to the various splinter cults, are happily still involved there in or after X number of years chalked it all up to experience and moved on? Now, what were the bullet points of benefits of the PFLAP class listed on the Wierwille-ite green card, again? What hooked you into taking that initial indoctrination class? Then... What were they teaching in their Witnessing and Undershepherding class?