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Freedom from the way international cult..........never grows old. Freedom of thought.......to explore the world in which I live. Freedom of speech........to disagree, or agree and explain why. Freedom of religion........or have no religion at all. Freedom of the press......er, GSC. TWI and the Splinters hate this site. Freedom from public character assassination......without representation. Freedom of privacy.........and fellowship and associations of my choosing. Freedom from mandatory meetings, meals and yell-fests. Freedom to be me. This list could be endless. The more I think about all the harassment and spiritual abuse that I put up with in twi.............I cannot believe that I stayed that long. The cult puppeteers were daily pulling the strings of what was spiritually important each day. What a load of BS. And, to this day......there are dozens of splinter groups that still idolize wierwille as the grand wizard........er, great one. Deceived and deceiving others. What a delusional way to live. Freedom. Fresh air. Life.

Okay so this has come up in several discussions, so I wanted to put it in a place where cult questioners can find it better. Mainstream Christianity teaches according to I Corinthians 12 - which incorporates Jesus body as an analogy or figure representing each follower as they band together. This teaching would dovetail into his ceremonial handling of the Last Supper - and the eucharist, or "body and blood" of Christ teaching is a common one in Christianity today. It is very clear that Jesus vision as well as God's vision to Paul was of Jesus followers being united together and functioning as a human body functions today with each of its parts working together. Victor Paul Wierwille, and every ensuing Way International President after him, taught and supported the idea of a "household of God". Their logic is since there is so much division in Christianity today Jesus couldn't mean all the denominations since they will never work together. Therefore the logic is the "one body" has to describe a certain group of people, a subset of the entire body of Christ that is inspired by the present truth and moves as one and works together at a very high level exactly like the pulse of the human body with the brain sending signals to the hand and the hand responding immediately. The Way and splinters label this subset the "household of God" and seperate off from the body of Christ in mainstream Christianity practically and organizationally. The Way Presidents have used this teaching to set themselves up in the position of Jesus as the head of the body of Christ, and to have complete authority over this "household of God" including the expectation that they respond quickly like the human body does. They ignore considering and discussing other Christians in the body of Christ. They work with no other Christian organization. They consider no other Christian input. They have a little closed system they have built for themselves where they have absolute control and are accountable to nobody. This teaching and functioning is ANTICHRIST. Why? Every single implementation of it sets up a single person or small elite group of people as the intercessor between the follower and God. There is an inordinate amount of control. There is the crossing of boundaries in lives. There is the using of people for their own ease. People aren't free to make decisions for themselves and their families with God and Jesus, they have to obtain approval from overseers. The logic is "since we are all one body, why wouldn't you want to share these things?" and they use good words and fair speeches to cross boundaries and control people and their finances and futures. ANTICHRISTS So folks you heard it first here on the 'SPOT. THERE IS NO HOUSEHOLD OF GOD. THERE IS A BODY OF CHRIST.

Dispensationalism is a man-made, private interpretation of “ALL scripture”, DEAD doctrine, based upon early 19th century textual and critical evidence which relied completely upon the latest 16th century “research”! LOL! Can you determine to be any more willfully ignorant of fact and evidence, 80% of which was unknown prior to 1980??? Bwaaaaaaahahahaha!

Yes skyrider. The beauty of the open sky and the 4th of july. Freedom. Family. Friends. Food. The freedom in the mind and life are so extremely valuable to me and so enjoyable and a time to note the contrast between now and the enslavements of the past in the Way. I've changed the direction of cult involvement in my generation and my family. Peace and love to you and yours this holiday week where we celebrate freedom. I'm very very thankful for my freedom from the Way, from my old fake friends, from my old lifestyle of conformity to sick people's rules, from bondage. Prisons of the mind indeed enslave beyond brick and mortar prisons. Now it's time to enjoy the rest of our lives. Fresh Air Life It's Good

What damage does this view on the household of God separate from the family of God do? It provides an environment where human evil can breed unchecked. What it leads to is the distinction in every follower's mind of some form of elite group separate from the body of Christ, yet fulfilling all of the things the body of Christ is supposed to. This breeds a form of "spiritual elitism" which comes off as ego. It definitely involves the ego, and it is like a virus on a computer - it masks itself. The ego masks as altruism. "We're just trying to move the Word over the world". "We're just trying to help people". They don't realize that due to this false doctrine they systematically violate scripture by continually judging their brother in Christ as somewhat less than they and their group are. I timothy 1:19 speaks of this: holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith I think "shipwrecked" is a perfect word to describe this state. Like on "Gilligan's Island" the crew and passengers set sail on a 3 hour tour. They become marooned on an island separated off from society and create their own little socio-political-economic system on an island that becomes its own identity. What Way followers and former Way followers do not realize is they can rescue themselves from their own Gilligan's island by just rejecting false doctrine and interacting with other Christians not of the same background from the Way. That's not a "cure-all" or anything, just logically putting yourself into the path of others and viewing them as scripture tells you to.

So on the education dig I know that's pointed towards someone on this thread, but I think criticizing any of us on our education background is a bit obnoxious. I mean my theological education was 4 years at the hands of a huckster who was the reason for this forum existing in the first place. If you want to direct criticism at education, I think VP pretty much is the center of attention there A mail-order doctorate degree. Wild stories to get in hippy girls pants, written up into a fairy tale novel of snow on gas pumps, repeated under the breath by admiring young people, and used to manipulate lives and amass a fortune that others are still using to mistreat people today. The overall flavor I get as I am reading a lot of these sources, like the two above, is that there is somewhat of an expectation that theology "develops" like other fields we are exposed to like philosophy, mathematics, electrical engineering, computer science. There are "fathers" of say psychology like Sigmund Freud, BF Skinner, who developed significant ideas in their fields that become the foundation of the field for further learning. The overall question it is starting to leave me with is when we are talking about theology and man's faith, is this something man originated or something God originated? If it is something man originated, then it makes sense to track it as other fields we have. Thoughts can develop over time, become tested with the scientific method, proven, and widely accepted. They can help people over time. However, if "theology" is something God originated, then the effort to continue constructing man's thought is nothing more than a modern tower of Babel. I guess it's kind of weird, because we talk about the same thing from two different angles - "faith" in a way to indicate that it's a belief not a mental construct, and "theology" indicating man's systemic study of God which is 100% mental constructs. So, which one is it folks in your opinion?

Freedom and Accessibility...............to tell the other side of the story. The oppressive, heavy-handed "rulers" who threaten with fear, guilt, and ostracize. The dark, seedy side of headquarters where leaders manipulate and control everything. Hoarding away $68 Million in assets........while staffers & corps have no equity or very little retirement benefits. Unearthing and exposing all of the lies and hypocrisy of twi's history and lore. Documenting wierwille's utter failures........in first 10 years of his independent undertaking (1957-1967). How the young firebrands, ministers and guitar players brought Christian zeal to twi...........not wierwille. The two wierwilles: the stage-presence of wierwille and the sexual predator wierwille. And..............every opportunistic splinter group that tries to feed off the wierwille brand. Freedom.......to write and voice the evil, hypocritical agenda of this cult.

Yes.........the BIG thunderstorm on the night of the 1985 corps week ordinations. Don Wierwille was on stage teaching..........as the rain torrentially poured down, and the tent sagged in one area under the weight of the water pooling. And, more and more of us were fixated on this growing problem, while deadbrain leader on stage kept teaching. Finally, someone came around and told a bunch of corps in that section to move away...... because the guy climbing on top of the tent was going to slice a hole and alleviate the sagging danger area. I don't know.....but it seemed like 40-50 gallons of water came pouring down when he sliced it from above. Nothing like cult leaders who refuse to stop things.......to put people quickly and decisively out of danger.

"Hey I just figured out why such the cognitive dissonance over organizing posts in this thread and Doctrinal. The title of this thread is "Wierwille the Indoctrinator" - indoctrinator has "doctrine" as its root word. How is it not going to come up? This thread by nature has elements of TWI and Doctrine in it. Two main words in the title are equally separated down each forum division." And yet, discussions of "indoctrination" can-and do- happen independent of "DOCTRINE." I read an entire book on the subject of indoctrination once ("Factors Used to Increase the Susceptibility of Individuals to Forceful Indoctrination"), and the APA didn't touch on "doctrine" at all. It's like saying that we can't "disagree" (draw different conclusions) without being "disagreeable" (grouchy and ill-tempered) because "disagree" and "disagreeable" have the same root word.

So thankful for the outstanding Christians that I have encountered in my church, the parent church, the local abbey (traditional main city church). and the very many people I've encountered through Christian organisations I'm involved with. There are so many ways to learn from each other (and preaching in church is only a small part of it) and so many ways to serve each other and the very much wider community. I wouldn't want to pull any elitist cards over them; such tremendous people, I'd prefer to emulate their heart and commitment, not "lord it over them." Oddly, there are some that think that about me, too! (Now I know they must be lacking in role models!). Try checking out this verse in other translations: and also this: Sorry, I missed the elitist bit that shows that the "household" gets to be the superior part of the Body of Christ.

Whether you see 2 or lots of individual ones really isn't so much the point. God says things in so many ways, and the repeats, I think, are just so those who seek Him will always find something that they grasp. Much like all the different forms of Dispensations and Covenant theology.. I don't think any of them or any of us have a corner on understanding the depth of God's plan. But I think we can all agree, God has a plan yes? To me, it's just sad that many think God has different plans that cause division in the end. The us vs them mentality. The church is divided. Jews are divided. God's people are divided. Not because of God, but because we put doctrine where it doesn't belong. God gave it to guide us to Him and to Christ. Not to divide ourselves. We have all been called to function as priests, all been called to serve(minister). The covenants are God's promises we can depend upon. Christ being one of them, the law the other. To squabble over whether that includes God's covenant given to Abraham, to Adam, to David, to Noah, to Jacob, to Moses, makes little difference to me. And you say you see yourself as Abraham's seed in a different sense, would you care to elaborate?

Anti(against)-Christ. Indeed Chockful! Indeed.

OK, I will rephrase. I feel you got the intent, but apparently due to a couple of scriptures having similar phrases, the accuracy is missed. I will take that as I need to explain it better. THERE IS NO HOUSEHOLD OF GOD DISTINCT FROM THE BODY OF CHRIST. Or, if you understand the statement with a bit of original intent there is no "household of God" as taught by the Way International. This meaning that ordinary Christians are "in the family of God", but those in the Way are "in the household of God".. THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE FAMILY OF GOD AND THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD. As applied to the verses in Gal and Eph above, both references are talking about the overall group of Christians in the world that one might encounter as a classification separate than "all men". Those verses carry an instruction to value highly all those belonging to Christ, not a distinct group under authority of the Way, or the R&R railroad folks, or whatever church it is you might be attending. Paul's instruction is not saying to Christian believers "do good unto all, but single out those in your church only to be especially good unto" or saying that the "fellowcitizens with the saints" is a group that includes only those of your particular denomination. Definitely not those who "took the class" or some such nonsense. For Way people THERE IS NO HOUSEHOLD OF GOD. THERE IS ONLY A FAMILY OF GOD WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST ON EARTH TODAY.

Yes I WAS a broken wineskin - but have moved on from that...allow me to explain: I think a lot of folks have figured out that you can’t fix stupid... and there’s no sense in repairing broken wineskins...when I say I moved on - it’s called a learning curve - folks develop skills (like critical thinking ) by learning from their mistakes... ...but those who left TWI and still have a wierwille-centric basis for doctrine and practice are stuck in a vicious circle...they may claim it’s improved - restored - revived - whatever ,like some supposedly learning curve process ...but follow the sequence - the reciprocal cause and effect of using wierwille’s “wine” and patched up wineskins (cultic mindset) and it will eventually aggravate and intensify their blindness, callousness and egotism... ...from what you’ve already shared about them I think it really illustrates Jesus’ words to a T: you should put NEW wine in NEW wineskins...in other words, start from scratch! New wine is still fermenting and so the expansion of “life” will burst an old hardened and stiff wine skin. I guess putting old wine into old wineskins wouldn’t pose as much a risk - you just keep patching up any leaks that may develop. Folks might want to figure out for themselves the application of Jesus’ words...for me it was to stop following (or being influenced by) any wierwille-associated doctrine and practice - be it books, teachings, fellowships, and rooting out that subtle mindset too (and really that part is an ongoing process - like peeling an onion...you keep digging deeper and deeper to remove one layer and then discover another layer beneath that... your critical thinking skills do get better over time - like therapy for atrophied muscles)...for me, putting the NEW wine in a NEW wineskin means taking off the wierwille-colored glasses and reading the Bible with an open mind and trying to gather the natural sense of scripture.

And now for something totally outta sight, man...HERE

Dan manufactured a problem and then manufactured its solution. Dan was unable to think of any apt penalty other than "lose salvation", so he concluded that God Almighty can't come up with one, either, and so he added that opinion to the relevant verses. God promised eternal life and incorruptible seed- but He didn't promise that those who prey on others (for example) won't face an appropriate penalty that doesn't involve revoking the above. I think it's actually kinda scary that God Almighty can come up with a punishment that fits all of that at the same time. Then again, in science fiction, that could have dramatic consequences (like eternal life without adding agelessness, so 500 years later, one looks 500 years old and so on. ) I don't think that's what they'll face- but they might prefer that to what's actually prepared and kept hidden for now.

Since this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, would anyone (especially the original poster) care to share something about the guy in the video, or the content of the video? I'm not a big fan of a video link dump with no explanation as to why I should watch it or even how long it is.

Yes T-Bone. Great point.

You can trust us with your life, just not with your wife.

Less Than, there are lots of archived old documents elsewhere on this site - unfortunately not as easily accessible as they used to be when the site was hosted differently. However, you might find this thread really helpful and very enlightening: And Grace, I'm not sure if you've looked at this old threads etc yet. You'd find them interesting too.

Welcome, Less Than. Praise the Lord you are less than TWI would turn you into, and More Than anything they could offer. Making you feel "less than" and not good enough is standard TWI technique, and it leaves big scars and holes in one's self-respect. You will find others here who were kids raised in TWI - I think you as a group have your own particular issues to exorcise. Actually, what Rocky posted just yesterday, a TED talk, could be really helpful for you. The speaker is a young woman who was raised in an abusive cult. Meantime, this is a great place for you to vent your anger, frustrations, and hang-ups. We've all been there. It's also very much okay for you to seek help from a therapist. If you had a broken leg, you'd seek help from a doctor, wouldn't you? Right. So seek help for your broken thinking. Say how you felt unsupported when your father died. Let it meander on from there. Maybe your therapist will be able to offer some strategies to help you "deal with" the anticipated conflict with your mum.

Every splinter group is, supposedly, a teaching ministry......................why? Self-appointed leader goes straight to the top of the pyramid Unaccountability.........to board members, progress reports, deadlines, underlings All-expenses paid traveling........of course, double-honor is given to "teachers" No overhead or operating expenses..........butt behind desk or podium, easy-peasy Access to tax-exempt status and gifts/perks...........win/win Adulation from others goes straight to leader's head......feeds the narcissism Leaders teach.........others "serve tables" No missionary work, feed the poor, charitable programs.......that's all counterfeit (wierwille said so) /s Starting a cult-splinter..........the fastest way to jump-start a career, when resume looks like dang

This letter from "Way Corps ministers" is so lame that it borders on pathetic. "The future of our ministry is in peril." ...................really? just now you guys figured this out? "Way Corps ministers" that have been indoctrinated for 40 years have little chance of "revival and restoration"........unless outside sources point the way out of the woods. This whole letter is generic mumbo-jumbo........like a Geer-redux (1986). Numbers and symptoms are pointed out, but the root of these problems escape them. Why are corps dropping away? Why are class numbers so anemic? Why is the whole thing so dead? Greasespot Café has been addressing these issues for 17 years........deception, intimidation, indoctrination, exploitation, pharisaic-rule, no accountability, cult behavior, double-standards, arrogant hypocrisy at top levels, liars, abusers, enablers, etc. And, we didn't just spotlight rivenbark's leadership and micromanagement.......here at GSC, we pulled back the curtains to expose wierwille and his pyramid-scheme, in all its treachery. The systematizing of error has taken root for decades. To simply confront rivenbark's tenure, character, and age is abysmal in its approach. Yeah......unless Bob Moynihan, Gary Frederick, Michael Fort, Paul Brooks and others just want to "move the deck chairs around on the titanic"......they need to get serious and roll up their sleeves. The place is a MESS. They need OUTSIDE CONSULTATION AND SUPPORT to even begin the process. NONE of them, it appears, have the wherewithal to break the institutionalization of twi's cult and get back to solid ground of Christian living and revival. Unless their little Q&A accommodates input from GSC-posters, the blind will continue to fall in the ditch.

That's because they didn't care about babies. They were a hindrance to "Moving the Word."

You...you mean the snow on the gas pumps story wasn't real???? Well, shut the front door. Next thing you'll be saying is that his doctorate was phony. Ladies and gentlemen, it's been a DISGRACE to have been in this fellowship this evening!! :lol: