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Weren't there some of us who, while others suggested the group wasn't interested in followers' money, that it was indeed the nature of the beast?

On January 20, 2019........They had a conference weekend in Wichita, Kansas. Three Teachings noted......... Cheerful Giver (by Rico Magnelli) Love is Giving: We Give Because God Gave (by John Ryan) Partners in Giving and Receiving (by Tom Knupp) So now it begins............the need for money, the need to recruit others. And.......why Wichita, Kansas? Is there still a group of loyal wierwille-followers there? .....

To me, it appears that Oikeos....Rico Magnelli........got off to a running start BEFORE this R&R group (Moynihans, Horneys. Fort, etc). Rico met with Rosalie after the August 2016 letter........confronting her head-on. This confrontation led to his immediate dismissal or resignation. Rico moved quickly on planning to jump-start his own splinter group.......website included. The R&R Group waited on Rosalie and BOD to relent and meet with their demands. Didn't happen. Then, the R&R Group sent out a March 2017 letter with 56 signatures (**and dozens more). In May 2017 was the R&R Group's Facebook Q&A............followed by more mark/avoid from hq. Again, to reiterate................Rico got the jump on all of this. And now.......when you click on "speakers" button on the Oikeos.org/teachings........Fort, Giles, Horney, Knupp, Moynihan, Ryan and Weller are listed as contributing speakers/teachers to Rico's Oikeos organization. Game. Set. Match. AND...............now, the teachings on giving money are coming out. AND................so it begins. ANOTHER BABY CULT IS BORN.

Thankyou Mark ! great help...I've come to the conclusion it's figurative, symbolic and used as exhortation to endure as an athlete, farmer, parent, soldier would and to stick to a commitment..God bless !!

Hi There, I recently left TWI almost two years ago after being involved for 27 years. I'm still trying to unwind it all, but I do want to say that over the years I would look at the information in this group and it helped me to eventually come out of TWI. I got involved when I was 13. Met my husband at The ROA, went Way Disciple Group 5, I don't know how often I will be able to come here, but I would love to talk with others who have done it too. Thanks.

Thanks Everyone. I appreciate the warm welcomes. I honestly have no idea how many people are left there. They keep that stuff pretty close to the vest. I can say though, that when I went WayD in '99 there were probably 50 to 60 people going out on the field from Gunnison, the West of the Mississippi group. The last WayMag I saw had pics of the folks going out and the groups were significantly smaller, as in the 5 to 10 range. Also, a development that would affect the numbers involved is the split that was the final straw for us. Yes, there has been another split up. A number of WayCorps had apparently started a group to discuss some grievances that they wanted to address to address to Rivenbark about how she was running things and how people were not seeing signs, miracles, and wonders. And the teaching from HQ had become uber stale. Ok, so I'm trying to remember and I may have some of details wrong, but this is what happened to the best of my recollection. This group began calling themselves Revival and Restoration, because their original intent was to reform TWI not leave it. I believe they first sent a letter outlining their "challenges" and solutions, and their intent to be respectful and work together with the BOD to figure it all out. I think they did call for the resignation of Rivenbark though. Anyways, Rico Magnelli, I think, had a meeting with her after the letter was sent where she summarily dismissed everything and, If my recollection is correct basically fired him. The letter was signed by some names you might know like Fort, Roberts, Moynihan, Horney, and Carter, to name a few. Anyways, this group had a list of grievances, including financial transparency, BOD accountability, and punishment of way corp for questioning Rivenbark etc. There were quite a few accusations. Anyways, our branch coordinators, whom we loved very much, were dropped in a backhanded way of just not being given an assignment. Also, the folks who had been our area coordinators for only a year, The Stiles were dropped for questioning Rivenbark. So this group has broken off from TWI and has reformed. Last I knew they were still calling themselves Revival and Restoration. My husband and I had been eyeing the door for some time, so we took it as our opportunity to leave. I still love many people involved in both groups, but I am not interested in being a part of any of them. I've had my fill of authoritarianism. I have the letters and other emails describing what went down. Maybe I'll go back through them and refresh myself, idk. I know some of you said you left around the time I joined, which was only a couple of years after "the fog" in 1990. When I first joined my fellowship was a very relaxed sort of hippyish deal. I smoked my first joint there, and had sex with someone in that fellowship for the first time. As time went on it became more and more controlling, and much more conservative. At one point we were instructed that it wasn't wise to go anywhere alone. Also, we were supposed to let the state leadership of any group know if we were even just traveling through their state so that we would be "spiritually covered." My husband and I, who were in our early 20's, were thoroughly reamed out at a meeting in front of everyone of course, that we attended on a trip we were taking because we hadn't let anyone know we would be in that state on our way to our destination. There was a "homo hunt" at the rock of ages in 95. Martindale became obsessed with homosexuality and in included in his version of the foundational class The Way of Abundance and Power that the thing that Eve partook of was a lesbian relationship with Satan who appeared as a woman, and Adam accepted it. (They subsequently just left that whole thing out of the foundational class they recorded after he was kicked) I often wondered if it was because of the alleged relationship between Donna and Rivenbark. When everything went down with LCM we were instructed not to look up anything to do with anything about the ministry or any of the people involved on the internet. Of course, this was to "protect us from the fiery darts of the wicked." After LCM left, everything became super boring and repetitive. Say what you will about him, but LCM was at least charismatic and entertaining. Rivenbark has a quieter gentler form of control and abuse. Over the years people tried to get us to move to HQ, but I was always struck at how robotic and fake anyone who went there came back. We actually did end up deciding to go into the way corps in 2003, and had all of our paperwork in when I ended up accidentally getting pregnant with our first child. Thank God for that. By the time we were eligible again, my husband had decided it wasn't for him. Shortly after I found out we were pregnant we moved back to my home state because I wanted my kids to have their grandparents close, and my father was dying. I was a new mom and I was traveling the hour and a half to visit my dad as much as possible and my fellowship coordinator had the audacity to "encourage me to spend more time with the household that I was." At that point I had started to see how much the ministry had come between my family and myself and I was trying to heal those relationships. I basically told him that my father was dying and I was going to get every minute I could with him and that I would never again put the ministry before my family and he would just have to get used to it. That was the first time I ever remember standing up for myself. from there it took 14 more years to officially leave. That's the short version of everything. It wasn't all bad, but I'm still working through things. I feel like an idiot at times for letting some of the stuff go on, or being involved with some of the things I was. For the last couple of years since leaving I have thrown myself into other things. I think I just needed some distance. After appearing on a podcast to talk about my experiences a few months ago, I have started to realize I need to work through some of this stuff now. I appreciate your listening. I'm sorry if this jumps around and is choppy. I find myself a little lost for words when it comes to some of this stuff, which is very unusual for me.

Bump -- 7-year old thread ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Is the Victor Paul Wierwille Memorial Museum more evident now? In the past number of years, the final stages of transitioning to a "memorial museum" have been met: The 68 Million has accrued, namely harvested and hoarded, to preserve the image and illusion of victor paul wierwille. Another 230 corps have abandoned the mother-cult. Some going into business for themselves.....Phasing in a splinter According to recent sources (March 2017 R&R letter).......programs, classes and ethical decency are gasping for air. Rosalie, Donna and Marcia G can gaggle and giggle together......during their shopping sprees and fine dining. In March 2019, Rosalie will celebrate her 80th birthday and years of retirement at this preservation society. Outreach is no longer needed.......the money will accrue in banks/investments to keep the illusion moving. Notice: Very little has changed since 1985 when wierwille left the building. The auditorium is an echo chamber. Leadership of the past has been erased.......of Summervilles, Duncans, Reahards, Smiths, Standages, etc. No displayed pictures to honor the thousands of lives who built the way international. This VPW Memorial Museum is a testament to isolation, illusion, immersion and indoctrination. Your contributions are welcomed. .

Hi Mamouda. Welcome to the café. Yep, you'll be shocked at some of the "behind the scenes" things you discover here. Be prepared to be horrified. Geer was an arrogant prig and what you say is no surprise. There's a thread about him in Way in Europe or some such forum. He "established" Gartmore, caused a rift among the trustees that ripped TWI in half, and lurked in Gartmore plotting more of the same. I think he is now back in Maine or some such. Gartmore was sold years ago. There are threads on that, here; enter "Gartmore" in the search box and you will find some relevant threads. Sexual abuse was rampant and you will find many first and second hand reports here. There were court cases about Martindale and that's what got him thrown out, but Wierwille was never brought to justice. You talk about your "country coordinator" - which country were/are you in? (PM me if you don't want to say publicly) Anyway, we are way off topic here! Have fun browsing.

Links to news articles where the information was reported publicly.

I am not skeptical, I do not believe a bit of it. By that time the human body is well along into the putrefying process. This story is full of gas and smells like the body would have.

Fifteen days, huh? Those sound like some awesome mushrooms.

If you can bring yourself to concede that, maybe, every word of it isn't really mathematically accurate or scientifically precise, it probably won't bother you nearly as much.

I'm am shocked :( about all the things I'm reading. Most of us were shocked about most of this. My "guts" kept telling me some things were wrong... I never went to the Corps but I heard about things that were tough. Then heard about the sexual abuse. A lot of people who were somewhat closer than little local Bible meetings saw some things that "felt wrong" but they were so convinced that the overall thing was of God that they ignored that and any "still, small voice" that said otherwise. Then a few things about Geer that one day pushed me violently because someone did something he didn't like and I was in his way... Yeah, when the cameras were off, vpw AND cgeer were nutjobs. lcm was one 24/7 because he really thought this was all of God. That's why he got caught where vpw was busy covering his own tracks. He was about money someone told me. Quite a bit of it was about money, and some was about ego. The entire choice of Gartmore House for the initial location was a poor idea. cgeer himself outlined it in his 40-page letter, but he didn't mean to say that because he signed off on the location, which was the cause of most of the site problems that resulted. (Too remote to get help, too remote to get deliveries, etc.) I'm not sure any of his part wasn't about money OR ego. What happened to Gartmore? Where's the money? Who collected it? Houses in Maine are expensive... cgeer was one of the signators to "the Way in Great Britain Ltd", which owned Gartmore House. "They" sold it off and never announced where the money went. I understand why our country co wanted to protect us. We were so young... A lot of legit Christians in twi did their best to insulate the younger Christians from fallout from the Root locales by psychopathic leaders like vpw, cgeer and lcm.

One thread in which it was discussed was "Gartmore Geer." https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4587-gartmore-geer/

We know he was interested in buying up all the adjoining farms. If he'd focused more twi-specific activities around NK, it would probably be de facto twi territory if not de jure. (Not legally theirs, but theirs in practice.) I think he had his sights set on bigger areas, mostly due to growth that H33fn3r and D00p had started- especially since he didn't have to lift a finger and was not expected to. He effectively claimed all those people on both coasts without any personal effort- which is what he wanted all along.

By 1981,1982, twi was in transition from the BRC to the Auditorium.........and was utilizing the OSC lunch room for Corps Night teachings and Sunday Teaching Services. To best accommodate wierwille and other teachers/emcees, a makeshift backroom was constructed that extended out into the warehouse. Like all things (it seemed) at headquarters, this slapped-up project was "temporary".........and remained a permanent feature for years to come. It was still there in 1995 when I last attended the roa. And, I would imagine that it's STILL there......an ugly, protruding wart out into the warehouse. I can't help but laugh........with some $68 Million in assets, you'd think that twi has a better handle on things, no? And, that Auditorium that they built.......with all its bells and whistles of a production rehearsal room, orchestra pit, welcoming lobby and lavish balcony... What productions?.........except, the Swinging Ladies of The Way. LOL What orchestra?.........it scattered to the winds within a year of the Auditorium opening. What welcoming lobby?.........the cold, icy glares of armed security watching at the doors. What lavish balcony?..........the one that no one sits in, because they can't fill the bottom rows. Heck, they can't even get enough sign-ups of advanced class students each year to justify running that class. What a pathetic waste of human and financial resources. I suppose they'll teach ........read a sermon on "Joyful Giving" this coming Sunday as the staffers sleepwalk thru another service.

Sky, I wonder how many years this group will last before, they devour each other.

On a TWI-related note: I think there could be a book titled "Raising the Dead #2: Why wierwille-Followers Still Refer To That Old Turd"

DWBH you do a great job of exposing this insipid bunch of self-serving sociopaths past and present. Your language doesn't tweak me because to me language is barely able to capture the evil these megalomaniacs caused in people's lives or the difficulty there is in escaping these systems. Although I do see how it would tweak various Wierwille apologists in whatever stage of apology they may be in. I say turn it up not down.

DWBH.....here's my perspective on your writing, input and delivery, never dial it back. I absolutely enjoy your posts. Your bold and descriptive exposure/confrontation of mogs/mogettes and their lieutenants reminds me of Matthew 23 when Jesus "laid it all out there" concerning the Pharisees (whited sepulchers, etc.). No one on these boards has seen what you've witnessed up close and personal. No one. And, where are the other 420 clergy that were once a part of the wierwille-deceptive-machine? A few dozen of them are in splinter groups living off the façade of the wierwille "foundation." Personally, I come to Greasespot to hear the OTHER SIDE.....and DWBH, you indeed shout it from the rooftops!! THANK YOU.

I think Wierwille knew his behavior, drugging and raping women who trusted him, was not acceptible in society, and so he kept it secret. If he didn't think it was fundamentally okay for him to do it, then why did he keep on doing it for as long as he was physically able? What does it say about Wierwille's attitude toward God that the quack was comfortably able to continue drugging and raping God's daughters? What colossal arrogance for Wierwille to believe in his heart that God would tolerate the desecration of His daughters for Wierwille's NEEDS!?! And Wierwille's colossal arrogance tainted EVERYTHING he taught in PFAL. It poisoned his definition of man, it poisoned his definition of salvation, it poisoned his doctrine of a believer's standing and state, it poisoned his definition of Jesus Christ and it poisoned his understanding of God Himself! I've been out of TWI for 24 years, but I have continued to study the Bible. I am STILL finding ways in which PFAL perverted my understanding of God and His Word. PFAL was an expression of the perverted arrogance in Wierwille's heart. Love, Steve P.S. - and he high-jacked my credibility to sell the damned class.

vpw criticized hypocrites who cherry-picked the verses they wanted and skipped the verses they didn't like. Then, of course, vpw WAS a hypocrite who cherry-picked the verses he wanted and glossed over the verses he didn't like. He'd acknowledge them lightly in public but never seem to bring them up when discussing conduct of leaders and so on. vpw was quite experienced at finding verses that he could DISTORT to make it sound like they supported what he wanted to believe. In private, he "found" a verse that said God was ok with ORGIES- although they weren't His optimal choice, He would ACCEPT them. So it should surprise no one that a verse that says "no condemnation" would be creatively interpreted to mean that no instance of GUILT should ever remain after doing anything, no matter how sinful an action was. vpw moved the boundaries of interpreting Scripture so that Christians were allowed to sin a lot so long as they didn't feel guilty about it. And he championed that position.

Animals can sense things about people, such as whether they're mean or cruel or friendly or caring, etc. I don't know how they do it. Maybe it's chemical or magnetic or electrical or whatever. I don't know. Neither do they. I've always had a problem with codependency. If a big storm blows shingles off my in-laws roof, guess who feels compelled to climb the ladder and fix it? I don't know how people sense it but they do. Some people, unfortunately, can sense it and exploit it. I think it's like that with sexual predators (just my opinion). Somehow, they sense a weakness in their prey and take advantage of it. I don't think it's a process that involves logic and reason. It must be similar to the ability animals have to sense things about people. And, the world is filled with animals.

Just like you can't put lipstick on a pig and make it pretty, you can't build a Christian ministry on the foundations of a sexual predator and educational fraud and plagiarist, no matter how many layers of whitewash you coat it with.

Gonna weigh in here... Great points word wolf, I hope that you never stop keeping the record straight and people honest here. twinot, i have to say that you are sounding pretty darned judgemental and harsh about a lady who most of us understand didn`t have a lot of options. She was his first *con* and by the time she found out differently she was stuck with small children. Geeemany.....She believed that she was getting away from her awfull home, she believed that vpw was going to be a minister and that she would be allowed to be a missionary....she had an honest heart to serve God. I know that I believed the twi sheet about marriage, as I am sure did she.....about being honor bound to God to obey my mariage vows no matter what the husband did ....even in THIS day and age. There are a lot of us that believed that God required us to maintain our silence and pain in order to be concidered a *virtuous* woman. We let twi define what aGod expected of a wife and so put up with whatever transpired because we obeyed a higher law. We were taught that if we obeyed the husband, that God would honor our commitment and make everything alright anyway. Guess I can understand praying steadfast day after day, trusting that God would intercede....watching my husband become more cruel and unbearable year after year....tearfully brokenly begging God to *fix* things. I did read where Mrs W shared that when she once confronted vpw, he simply told her that if she didn`t like it she could just leave. She had no where to go with small children, and felt honor bound to God to obey her marriage vows. It is a wonder that she remained so unsullied and above the sin and filth that vpw introduced into their life. Yeah, she lost it a time or two....but who in the he ll wouldn`t having to live with that shame and humiliation....are we forgetting how persuasive that .... head was?