Jump to content
GreaseSpot Cafe

Leaderboard

Popular Content

Showing content with the highest reputation since 09/27/2021 in all areas

  1. I'm going briefly off-topic here to alert readers that the Covid information posted above is glaringly incorrect and, quite frankly, dangerous. Okay, back to the topic at hand.
    3 points
  2. Ah, but a DIFFERENT thread is a memorial. I was going to leave that thread completely alone. I had no PERSONAL dealings with JAL, and thus no memories to share. I also wasn't going to make a new thread JUST to call out dangerous teachings. However, since this one was started, I consider it fair game. :) It's one thing to go out of your way to do a character-assassination on someone. Somebody leaves twi, and immediately the spin doctors grab the microphone and begin a smear campaign with vague connections to reality. The person was a model Christian up until the moment before they left twi, NOW they're scum! It's another to point out that someone-who made himself a PUBLIC FIGURE and worked hard to do so- has disseminated dangerous misinformation to the public. For this post, Í'm going to skip the dangerous "Momentus" push he did where people were hurt, and the dangerous "personal prophecy" movement that ruined lives and wrecked marriages. I'm JUST going to go by the video that was linked, and what he said about the global pandemic, during its height. Only going by this one video.... A) He said masks are useless against COVID. That's false. That was known `100 years ago with the "Spanish Flu" and it's true now as well. He said all the authorities speaking up were wrong and that if you listened to the "right sources", you'd know that. No mention of WHO those right sources were, can't fact-check if he's correct, of course. At that level, he's floating a rumor. B) He said COVID was no worse than a flu. Outside the US, this isn't a political thing in many countries- it's acknowledged this is a worldwide killer. Again, no sources for his outrageous claim. C) Claim the CDC said many of the cases (he said "MOST") of the cases were due to comorbidities, so that meant that COVID wasn't to blame there. That shows an ignorance of basic epidemiology. With an "opportunistic infection", something occupies and wears down the immune system, and something else- which normally wouldn't be dangerous- gets in and does a lot of harm or kills someone. So, if there was no COVID, the "co-morbidity" would not have been a significant issue. So, his own words there, for those with a layman's grasp of medicine, show he doesn't understand what he's passing along. He may believe it, but that doesn't make it true, and it doesn't make it harmless. D) He said it's worse to wear the masks than to risk catching COVID. E) He said the isolation protocols have been keeping people from attending church. He hasn't gotten around that much. Virtual church-going got REALLY popular during 2020. F) He said "most" vaccines- with COVID the context- are "HARMFUL", No medical authority has embraced this, and they keep refuting this. All the medical experts rushed out to get vaccinated as soon as was possible. In fact, many people who got on the media and claimed there may have been problems with the vaccines were all quick to get vaccinated. Again, no source, just another rumor he floated. G) He said the US death rate for COVID was 0.0 something death rate. He said he doesn't "worry about it at all", and repeated that the masks were useless, and tells nurses not to bother with them. He mentioned "the true science" with no mention of where one can look it up. So, hidden (OCCULTED) knowledge where he refuses to cite his sources. All of that, if followed, runs between "highly-suspect" (hidden sources) and potentially fatal (skipping the vaccines.) In a lot of the world, this isn't about politics, it's about PUBLIC HEALTH and bipartisan support for measures were common. In countries where this was a political football, the body counts for COVID shot up (like Brazil.) Comedian Gabriel Iglesias is in poor health. He's morbidly obese, has diabetes, and other health problems. He caught the Delta variant of COVID, and took 1 day of bed-rest. He was fine afterwards- because he got BOTH vaccination doses. If one follows JAL's counsel on COVID, one runs the risk of getting the disease, and possibly dying, or possibly passing it along to other family members and friends. Places where vaccination has been up are often maintaining social distancing and mask-wearing, and otherwise are returning to normal- as much as one can while doing both. The places where the highest rates of people getting COVID and dying of COVID correlate directly to places where people remain unvaccinnated. That's a problem for 3rd world countries that can't get vaccines, and that's a problem in the US in counties where people say their personal freedoms are being infringed upon. I agree with what Arnold Schwarzenegger said on this. Your personal freedoms have responsibilities. JAL had the courage of his convictions, and practiced what he preached- which, apparently, led directly to his death. At least he was CONSISTENT. If this post ends up getting chopped up by staff, I'm sorry. I tried to stick to the medical facts and as clear of politics as I could manage.
    3 points
  3. I didn't meet John, personally. I do remember rather vividly, though, a teaching of his on grace. He was a pitcher, presumably for his college baseball team. "There I was -- up by a run in the bottom of the ninth. By SOME STRANGE TWIST OF FATE, the bases were loaded with nobody out. I struck out the next two batters with six BLAZING fastballs. At that point, the first baseman told me that with two out, he wouldn't be holding the runner on. Of course, I knew that. After two pitches to the batter, I could see the runner at first with a big lead, so I completely forgot what the first baseman had told me. I wheeled to throw to first, and life went into slow motion. I couldn't throw to first, because the first baseman wasn't there. I couldn't hold on to the ball, because that would be a balk and bring the tying run in. So, I threw it to the RUNNER. Reflexively, he caught it, then dropped it like a hot potato and started running. The umpire called him out for interference. Game over. Grace: being completely in the wrong but coming out smelling like a rose." Rest in peace, John. George
    3 points
  4. According to someone I trust for reliable information......twi is starting to reach out and solicit/summon ex-corps grads to come back. Apparently, there is a growing demand for Limb coordinators. Huge swaths of states do NOT have adequate or no leadership. Seems that few are willing to take on the task and challenge of running a state. What could possibly be the reasons? A non-salary position......and confrontation from the bod-leadership every week? The grueling paperwork and reporting back to distant overlords? Enduring a no-upside situation.....and neglecting wife/kids in the process? Being micro-managed by hypocritic Pharisees? At the smallest mistake, having your name sullied thru the mud at corps meetings? If you think about quitting.....you will be on the blunt end of character assassination? Also, it was said that the board of directors is implementing some of Bob Moneyhands' suggestions from that letter. Yes, Bob (and others) did suggest that the no-debt policy should be tossed. Yes, Bob (and others) did suggest that corps who were wronged should be invited back. Are they going to start up a "research team" again? I'm positive that twi knows who I am......and has photocopied hundreds of my GSC threads. I will not be getting a phone call......thankfully. It wouldn't matter if they apologized for Martindale's and Lally's 1998 Character Assassination on my life and reputation. They publically lied about us to keep us from exposing the sullied underbelly of Martindale's sexual predation and twi's whitewashing this information. Rosalie knew. They all knew. No matter.........I ain't going back. Never. Ever.
    2 points
  5. In what's called the narcissist cycle of abuse, this is an example of hoovering.
    2 points
  6. Good post, Chockfull !!!! And you got me to reevaluate wierwille’s doctrine from another angle. wierwille’s self-promotion was camouflaged by the persona that he was a simple clergyman frustrated with the lack of answers and power in his life until supposedly God spoke to him. In the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.” I believe anyone who is NOT enamored with this myth of wierwille should be able to see through his smoke and mirrors. Comparing wierwille’s body of work with that of E.W. Bullinger, it becomes clear that wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist. It is intriguing to note wierwille attempted to preemptively avoid the issue of pirating intellectual property by occasionally saying something along the lines that much of what he taught was nothing new, he simply pieced together what he learned from others and with God’s guidance made it accurate in the process. So, I decided to suspend my criticism of wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and examine his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. If indeed he had God’s help then we should not find any errors or logical fallacies – in either the exact copying of another person’s material or in wierwille's supposedly “correcting" , “revising” …or in any way modifying another person’s material. In other words, the finished product of wierwille’s doctrine (which also goes by the pet name “The Word” – an affectionate term used by big wierwille-fans ) should be error-free and faultless in every way. I did not have to go very far in this reexamination – here are two examples straight out of PFAL: 1. Example of wierwille copying another person’s error: The four crucified with Jesus. This is a distinct error first propounded by E.W. Bullinger. To keep it brief – I will not go into great detail over this bizarre teaching which has already been laboriously dissected on Grease Spot in numerous threads by many folks. Suffice it to say here that given what we know of how the Gospels were written – not only from independent research but even from passages within each of the four Gospels – we find that the Gospels were produced by assembling information collected from many sources. For example, note the word “compile” in Luke 1 ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1&version=ESV “1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.” I think the erroneous four crucified doctrine that wierwille copied from Bullinger was one of wierwille’s favorite ploys to distinguish himself from other Bible teachers. It plays on a false-fear that you’ve been missing a lot of info – almost as if to say “all those other Bible teachers missed there were actually four crucified with Jesus. What else have they missed? Stick with me and you’ll find out lots of other things that even many Bible scholars have missed.” Besides the fact that the Gospel writers compiled information from many sources the reality that there are four DIFFERENT narratives of the life of Jesus Christ represents four DIFFERENT accounts of events and experiences – each Gospel presenting the details through a sequence of the author’s own choosing. The sequence is always linear – in a straightforward manner – even if there’s an extremely long protracted timeline such as John 1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=ESV starting off with “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” wierwille’s argument for there being four crucified with Jesus depends on him using the dubious “scripture build-up” method – piecemealing passages from across the four Gospels as well as mangling and obfuscating definitions of the Greek words for “thief” and “malefactor” to try and suggest there were more than two crucified with Jesus. wierwille’s teaching on this in the PFAL class reminds me of the film “Pulp Fiction” - a 1994 American crime film written and directed by Quentin Tarantino – the film’s narrative is told out of chronological order and follows three main interrelated stories that each have a different protagonist. In the case of Bullinger’s / wierwille’s teaching of the four crucified with Jesus – their misconstrued narrative is told in an awkward chopped-up chronological order as if by someone who suffered a severe trauma to the head and now has lapses in memory - -zeroing in on the different Greek words used in each Gospel when referring to the others crucified with Jesus…Bullinger and wierwille also assume that the Gospel writers were not mentally advanced enough to understand the concept of four, since there is no mention of four criminals at the crucifixion scene in any Gospel.,,even though the disciples seemed perfectly capable of other mathematical challenges - like enumerating the number of days/nights Jesus would be in the grave - three ... or to mention their own number - twelve disciples. With all this finagling of who said what when about who, it seems to me wierwille was really playing an intellectual shell game involving sleight-of-thought, in which various words and ideas are moved about with the skillful adeptness of a double-talking used car salesman, to the amazement of PFAL students. Do you know what this means? wierwille’s big act of being so concerned for the accuracy and integrity of “The Word” is just that – an act! It’s a sham ! How does butchering the Gospels in a piecemeal fashion to concoct an alternate version of the crucifixion scene reflect precisely and honestly what really happened? wierwille attempted to show us what other Bible scholars had apparently missed. His spiel was a mixture of sense and nonsense that appeared to be earnest and meaningful and at times was a rapid patter of deliberately evasive ambiguous language and elaborate and passionate but confusing explanations. What wierwille missed was the importance of the central figure at the crucifixion – the Lord Jesus Christ !!!! …I think wierwille was just making a mountain out of a molehill and being ignorant of how people relate an incident. Four different people could have witnessed a hit-and-run incident and give four different descriptions of the vehicle that hit the victim. One person says it was a white SUV. Another says they thought it was a white Ford Bronco, a third witness says the SUV looked gray. And the fourth witness replays the dash camera in her car and it shows a 1998 light gray Dodge Durango SUV – which eye-witnesses could have mistaken for white since the incident happened at dusk and colors often appear different in low light…To one Gospel writer, the two men crucified with Jesus were described as thieves. To another writer, they’re malefactors – or evildoers. Even wierwille admitted in PFAL that each author of any book in the Bible used their own vocabulary and style when writing by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Also, many Bible scholars have pointed out that each Gospel has a distinct viewpoint and a particular purpose to portray certain unique aspects of Jesus Christ – and as such logic would dictate that the proper literary flow is to simply read each Gospel all the way through as a whole piece, to understand the author’s original intent. There are many more inaccuracies and logical fallacies concerning lots of other Bible stuff in PFAL - so you might want to check out: Raf’s thread Actual Errors in PFAL and Mark Clarke’s thread More blatant PFAL errors = = = = = 2. Example of wierwille screwing up another person’s correct interpretation: Another thing that wierwille “borrowed” from Bullinger but then he mangled in PFAL is from II Peter 1: 20, 21 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=II+Peter+1&version=KJV 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. In Bullinger’s book “How to Enjoy the Bible” Bullinger says in regard to “of any private interpretation”, is that the little word “of” is genitive of origin – and is simply saying Scripture wasn’t CONCEIVED by anyone’s imagination or personal interpretation. Bullinger goes on from there to cover some basic hermeneutics – which is the study of the methodological principles of interpretation of the Bible. I believe Bullinger got that part right. In PFAL however, wierwille muddied up II Peter 1:20 and said The Bible should not be privately interpretated – in other words, it’s a no-no to have or offer a personal interpretation or opinion……there is to be no “I think it means this”. wierwille goes on to say that if no private interpretation is allowed than the Bible must interpret itself. Just pause for a moment and think about what an affront that is to logic, linguistics, historians, sociologists, anthropologists, and philosophers – not to mention Bible scholars, translators and textual researchers. We’re talking about a compilation of 66 different books written by 40 different authors over the course of an approximately 1500-year period, using basically 3 different languages, spanning a variety of cultural, political, and geographical settings. Needless to say wierwille's idea that the Bible interprets itself is silly...absurd...laughable...and I can't believe I actually bought into it at one point in my life. In my defense I will say I was young and naïve. critical thinking schmitical thinking. In PFAL, wierwille does briefly get into some of the keys to the proper interpretation of the Bible mentioned by Bullinger (and which you’ll also find in many affordable paperbacks written by competent and better qualified authors – besides the more technical books of many systematic theologies written by real scholars)... But here's something puzzling - in PFAL wierwille tries to make the case that you can’t go wrong using these “simple” keys to see how the Bible interprets itself – but truth be told, observing wierwille in live teachings or even speaking extemporaneously he often failed to adhere to the very interpretive keys that he promoted in PFAL. He’d ignore the context of a passage, fumble with the definition of a Greek word, proof-text, twist things up in logical fallacies – and don't forget his go-to tactic for pulling answers out of thin air to justify his absurd interpretation of a verse “Father showed me this.” It's like an actor going off-script. If there was truth in scamming (well, that's gotta be a contradiction of terms ) I could picture wierwille saying "I'm not a real doctor but I play one on TV - if you happen to be watching a video of the PFAL class." So reevaluating his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. Assuming that God Almighty is an infinite, perfect, omniscient, truthful, and rational being who is absolutely capable of clearly communicating any type of information to other rational beings - and given that wierwille's body of work contains numerous inaccuracies, contradictions, and logical fallacies - leads me to conclude wierwille made a false claim. God did NOT guide wierwille to produce a perfect body of work. Wierwille must have lied and/or had been operating under a serious delusion. * * * * * To understand wierwille’s origin story is to peer through the smoke and mirrors of wierwille-mythology and comprehend the fascinating backstory – a complicated narrative unfolding on Grease Spot that still continues to reveal stuff about the narcissistic megalomanic, unabashed plagiarist and self-deluded cult-leader. If all this is news to you, then you might want to check out: WordWolf’s thread The Way Living in Wonderland and Skyrider's thread The Wierwille Legacy: Who will write the book? * * * * * PS: Hey, you folks still involved with The Way International – you’ve got some reading AND thinking to do! Besides reading the threads that I gave the links to – you should check out the book “Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International” https://www.amazon.com/Undertow-Escape-Fundamentalism-Control-International-ebook/dp/B06ZY8HVKS on Grease Spot the author goes by the name Penworks. She also started a thread about her book - click here > https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24360-undertow-escaping-from-the-fundamentalism-and-cult-control-of-the-way-international/ She worked in the research department of TWI. There’s some very revealing stuff in there about the shady inner workings of The Way International and how wierwille who was supposedly so concerned about “the integrity and accuracy of The Word” had no qualms about pressuring the research department to mistranslate a Greek word so it would substantiate what he thought a passage should say. and what about his dictum “ private interpretation of the Bible is not allowed “? I guess it’s okay for wierwille to do that. And while you're thinking about ordering Penworks’ book you could always do some light reading of another thread started by Penworks - Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24319-evidence-letters-vpw-wrote-to-the-way-corps/ besides the comments of other Grease Spotters you can also visit an independent website that has a lot of TWI info including way corps household newsletters - click here > https://sites.google.com/site/corpsnewsletters/system/app/pages/subPages?path=/home - be forewarned these letters are not for the faint of heart – if you’re a big fan of wierwille you’ll probably be shocked at how narcissistic, manipulative, vengeful, and berating personality wierwille was – evidenced by his own words to the way corps, his most devoted followers. I encourage you to read…and think…fully engage your cognitive skills. Live a little dangerously - try ignoring what leadership tells you to think about Grease Spot. Think for yourself…If the observations, arguments and experiences expressed on Grease Spot seem ridiculous and unbelievable to you, then blow us off and return to your “idyllic” life in TWI. But if there’s anything that resonates with you – then take your time to mull things over… ...Back in 1986, once we realized there was something really wrong with The Way International (even though we couldn’t actually nail it down yet) my wife and I took several months of prayer, deep reflection, crucial Bible studies, reviewing of Way-doctrines and lots of intense conversations over our individual experiences, doubts, questions, concerns and feelings before we mutually decided to leave TWI…there was no Internet back then. We had to fend for ourselves...we had to start thinking like adults - which is a really odd thing to say - but because we were so indoctrinated - thinking like an adult was trained out of us...being fully indoctrinated forces you to have a childlike dependency on leadership. In other words, your intellect, emotions, aspirations, hopes and dreams are on a short leash - you lack independence or autonomy due to being strongly controlled by another. You owe it to yourself and your loved ones to take a long and honest look at wierwille’s real origin story and then decide if that should remain as part of your own story. ...Take your time and be smart and careful if you do decide to leave...your safety and security ...and freedom is our utmost concern for you ! Your allegiance should be to God and Jesus Christ and that you serve them with a clear conscience. You do not owe The Way International anything...for as much as they have exploited you, I think they owe you a lot ! that's all for now, folks - - peace to all !
    2 points
  7. So in the context of this thread i can’t forget the words of Dorothy Wierwille at her husbands funeral. ”He was a mean man”
    2 points
  8. I apologize for being drawn into what became a side discussion. I felt the need to clarify some information that I felt had the potential for misinterpretation. That being said, I'm reminded of Mark Antony's oration in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar (Act3/scene ii). It still applies today. "The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones." The full impact of what's being said here is more apparent when read in full context.
    2 points
  9. Ok, I've been trying to let this go because I've participated in the thread. THIS THREAD IS ABOUT: the propriety of saying "negative" things about those who have died in the immediate wake of their passing. Because it was implicitly about JAL, there was some latitude in exploring what was said about him [namely, comparing that conversation to the behavior described in the opening post]. To explore the issue adequately, we did have to make observations that would otherwise be off topic. The observations were made. Counterobservations were made. Ok, fine. THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT: COVID and the best ways to prevent its spread. Future posts that are not on topic will be deleted without warning or apology.
    2 points
  10. I don't want to appear to be jumping on you but here are some things to consider: 1. The virus, itself, can and does cause clotting and heart problems. So, you are taking a chance on experiencing clots by NOT getting vaccinated. 2. The vaccine is of the intramuscular variety. This means it must be injected into muscle tissue, and not into a blood vessel. If it is inadvertently injected into a blood vessel, it can have the potential of causing problems. When you get a shot and see the person pull back on the needle, they are looking for traces of blood. This is called aspiration. If they observe blood, they should not continue with the injection. The vaccines being discussed are to be injected high in the deltoid muscle. There is a very low chance of encountering a blood vessel there but the human body is not perfect and some people might have vascular tissue there. Many of the people giving injections have not been trained to aspirate intramuscular injections, but it's still a wise practice to follow. If you get the jab, you can ask your practitioner to please aspirate if it makes you feel safer. I'm not a medical professional so this information may not be exactly correct. Please do your own investigating and listen only to credible sources.
    2 points
  11. Okay fine…well then, I just might listen to a few old Sunday Night Teaching Tapes I’ve got stored in a Rubbermaid storage tub in the attic…what’s that you say? The extreme temperatures of an attic are murder on cassette tapes? …Yes, I know. (gleefully snickers)…Smithers, fetch me attic storage tub number 25 with the hazardous waste material sticker on it. Chop chop!
    2 points
  12. Not for a moment do I think it's fair game to go after grieving family members.
    2 points
  13. Wierwille was the king of making mountains out of molehills. How many were crucified with Christ? 2 or 4? See mainstream Christianity can't even get it right with details of Christs death and resurrection. So trust us instead of them because we are more accurate. If you read about the Pharisees in the Bible you get a good picture of how Way leadership operates. But they hide this with good words and fair speeches. Don't buy their major premise. Insignificant details in scripture are just that. Insignificant details. Not a reason to follow a cult.
    2 points
  14. Its been a few years. I was surprised that my old account and password still worked here. How is everybody? What have you been doing for the last few years? What's new? Anything? Hopefully we are no longer the same.. and need reintroduction. I have been instructing math classes for the last 12 years. Still a Ham Radio operator, callsign KB8PGW.. but always getting involved in new activities. The newest is Traffic Handling. I pick up messages via radio from a digital board and deliver them the last mile to recipients. And relay outgoing messages to the National Traffic System. Still get involved in contests and Field Day. Still construct radio projects by hand.. Net Control operator for QMN, the Michigan Traffic Net. Nice bunch of people there. I will get to meet them in a couple of weeks at the annual picnic. What else. I loved Real Analysis, but it was the bane of my existence (stunk at it). It's taken me over ten years to figure a lot of it out.. I said once if the light really came on with Real Analysis I'd go back for the doctorate.. we will see about that. Still live in a town of otherwise nice people, they are pretty anti social. My best friend here is the cat of the residence, Samantha. Now have seven grandchildren. Six boys, one girl. Still believe in a God.. despite the world's best or worst efforts.. Exercise the best that I can. Getting older, problems with one knee.. but keep moving the best that I can. What about you? What is new, or what's not new?
    1 point
  15. gene and sherry are good people. the way abused them beyond what you would believe. i am happy for them. he always was a research nut and i'm glad he is putting it to good use. glad hes teaching school in LA - thats a lifetime teaching job and he is a good teacher. damn glad God is multiplying their success like Job. i know nothing of their current associations or reasoning, havent spoken in many years. no i'm not packing up the camper and joining the old folks revival in montana. not my deal. and i'm not a fan of the ex corpse coords. except i believe rico to be genuine and to have put in genuine work on the classes his ministry offers. as such they would be better than the ways classes. but i know nothing of associations and strings and whatever else is involved in that group. as far as associations, i dunno - at least a bunch of those individual ministries working together in any sense more resembles activity that I believe to be more like the genuine body of Christ than the ways isolationist hooey. i think the r and r represents a collective offshoot group. i personally choose not to preserve anything remotely attached to wierwille, i believe my journey God is leading through other christian influences. but if ex way folks find a support system there its ok by me. unless they buy a motorcoach. but i 100% get the aversion to ex corpse coordinators. i concur. those clowns were the worst of the worst, like starting a new jewish ministry with ss gestapo members. how bout they stfu for the next couple decades. and the way int? they that trouble their own house will inherit the wind. so shellac away preserving that auditorium and broadcast equipment paid for with blood money.
    1 point
  16. This has been a problem on its way for 30+ years. The late 60s/early 70s numerical growth was fueled by young people who wanted something different than what their parents' churches had to offer. As cultish as we now know TWI has always been, for us young people back then, TWI, at least upon our initial exposure, was exciting. For the children of the first few waves of PFAL grads, TWI was their parents' church and was anything but exciting. Besides, by the 90s there was an evangelical or "full Bible" church on every street corner that claimed to deliver the same "accuracy of The Word" that TWI did...there was plenty of choice, it wasn't just TWI vs. mainstream Christianity any more.
    1 point
  17. ... which, in 2017, was published as Undertow. :-)
    1 point
  18. I was neither impressed nor trying to impress anyone about him. Just posting what I easily found.
    1 point
  19. Twinky.......I seriously doubt that they will send out invitation letters. Have you ever noticed that twi DOES NOT like to put things in writing? Written information puts them at a disadvantage. Documenting things in writing is taboo. Even their *mark-and-avoid* policy is NOT in written form. Plus, they wouldn't want something to be posted on GSC....would they?
    1 point
  20. Cults have a history as long as history has been recorded, but there has been remarkably enhanced concern about them more recently. In the 1970s at least two noteworthy whistle-blowers called attention to the rapidly expanding adversity of cults. One was Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D., a psychologist, and the other was John G. Clark, M.D., a psychiatrist. Their writings (Singer, 1979; Clark, 1979) sounded an alarm. They suggested that harm, which consists of physical and psychological constraint and manipulation, refusal to let adherents leave, depletion of adherent’s funds and assets, denial of competent treatment for illness, and even plain and simple wasting of adherents’ time, had been widely noted as a consequence of destructive cult involvement. Such harm is now clearly perceived by a significant segment of the population, but widespread awareness of the extent of destructive cultic harm is not yet incorporated into the American culture.
    1 point
  21. Ok, you get the last word. Subject closed [on this thread]
    1 point
  22. Excellent salient points and summary WW. This makes it even so much more clear. Without the uniqueness of VPWs story, which was conveniently covered up by removing the book containing its account by Elena Whiteside removed from sale at the bookstore, there is no substantial reason for the Ways classes. Most of the content was stolen from BG Leonard. Think about it. God somehow bypassed the other 10 billion inhabitants of the planet, and chose to personally teach one morally decrepit minister with a narcissism problem. The mans other contemporaries like Billy Graham and Oral Robert’s whose tent event VPW faked speaking in tongues at were not so lucky to be chosen by God to hold the golden tablets for our generation PFAL. The current class is not new material. The video was so outdated of VP it wasn’t relevant so they remade the class by basically re arranging the content. There is not new or different doctrine introduced. This re work was done by an athlete with a bachelors degree in business. Then when that class grew to be a non viable option due to the guy on video being ousted for being a sexual predator just like the first guy, the same material was re taught by three people so it wouldn’t take as long to replace if one of them caved in also. So tracking the material, it is a Canadian minister (BG Leonard) teaching material that VPW stole without permission. Then it was reorganized by sexual predator #2 with no academic credentials, then re taught by a committee. One of the three left over the glaring discrepancy of having a Biblical research ministry with nobody actually doing research and no research department. So his content was replaced. From just a basic logical analysis of the classes and content, it is a reasonable path to form a conclusion regarding the history of the content and to reach the idea that it is a group sham as opposed to God delivering original content to a group. It doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny at all basically. If there is a conclusion to be drawn it is that the content in the Ways classes are not magic in producing false claims, and are basically a sham orchestrated by people protecting money power and position who know better and definitely know what they are doing with the content. Protect the $65M in assets amassed by the first predator. y a
    1 point
  23. The only time I heard the subject mentioned (I was yanked out at the end of 1979 soon after my sexual assault) was at ROA 1978 when VPW called the corps going WOW into the woods for a chat. He basically advised us to watch ourselves sexually, as he has already had to pay for several abortions, claiming he didn't like abortions. But I never heard him utter anything else on the subject. He sure sounded like it was more of a matter of inconvenience than anything else.
    1 point
  24. C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance. twi's system shares a trait with some of the extwi systems- they're Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him. But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise." How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word? They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. Saul of Tarsus joined them - a former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof. The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.) So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not. vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comprise "revelation."
    1 point
  25. The paper mentions this book, Malignant Pied Pipers of Our Time From a review of the book on Amazon: As a former member of a cult this study really hit home for me. My wife and I struggled for years trying to understand how we could have been so readily drawn into the Children of God. Thank God we found our way out. We did not suffer many of the aftereffects many ex members do but some of our friends did. A malignant Pied Piper emerges when an individual with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder finds a population who need a leader to take over the responsibilities of life for them and tell them what to do. They become dictatorial and usually sexually exploitative. When they take the next step and become involved in the occult they can become malignant and violent.
    1 point
  26. That’s some good points Twinky and Bolshevik! Your posts got me looking into all the reasons: here's one article: “3.5% of Abortions Are for the “Hard Cases” Calculations based on statistics provided by medical journals and government surveys in the United States show that abortions for the “hard cases” are much rarer than most people believe. A survey of more than 2.4 million aborting women performed by the states of Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota and Utah during the years 1996 to 2020 gives us an accurate estimate of the number of “hard case” abortions, since these are the numbers that abortion clinics must report in official documents to these states: 1.14% are done to save the life or physical health of the mother. 1.28% to preserve the mental health of the mother. 0.39% in cases of rape or incest. 0.69% for fetal birth defects, or eugenics. 3.50% for all the hard cases combined. 96.50% of all abortions are therefore performed for social or economic reasons. Even the Guttmacher Institute puts the number of abortions done for the hard cases under 7% after doing several surveys of women obtaining abortions (the Guttmacher Institute was the research arm of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, the largest chain of abortion clinics in the United States. It is considered the most reliable provider of accurate statistics on abortion). Statistics from Other Nations The reasons for abortions all over the world are largely the same. In 1998, the Guttmacher Institute published the results of studies showing that lifestyle reasons also predominate among aborting women in other nations. Its summary of surveys performed in 26 countries outside the United States showed the primary reasons for aborting given by the 62,658 women interviewed.3 Since rape and incest are included under “other reasons,” a maximum of 5.8% of all abortions performed in other countries are done for the hard cases, and a minimum of 94.2% are performed to preserve the mother’s lifestyle or to please those close to her. The Guttmacher Institute duplicated their survey twenty years later in different nations and arrived at identical results. Its 2017 study of 39,622 women obtaining abortions in twelve nations also revealed that only 5.8% of all abortions are done for the “hard cases.” The Takeaway Even people who wish to argue that the hard cases justify abortion must admit that these hard cases occur only a tiny minority of the time, and that the vast majority are performed for social and economic reasons.” From: https://www.hli.org/resources/why-women-abort/ = = = = = = = A much earlier research project had similar findings – four near the top of the list gave various social reasons - and at the top of the list at 40% was for financial reasons: “Common Abortion Reasons Research collected from 2008 through 2010 asked women about the reasons for getting an abortion. Some listed multiple reasons for their decision. The reasons, and the percentage of women who gave each one, are: Not financially prepared: 40% Bad timing, not ready, or unplanned: 36% Partner-related reasons (including the relationship is bad or new, she doesn't want to be a single mother, her partner is not supportive, does not want the baby, is abusive, or is the wrong guy): 31% Need to focus on her other children: 29% Interferes with educational or vocational plans: 20% Not emotionally or mentally prepared: 19% Health-related reasons (includes concern for her own health, the health of the fetus, use of prescription or non-prescription drugs, alcohol, or tobacco): 12% Want a better life for a baby than she could provide: 12% Not independent or mature enough for a baby: 7% Influences from family or friends: 5% Doesn't want a baby or to place the baby for adoption: 4% This survey used open-ended questions rather than having women select from a checklist of researcher-generated reasons. Previous surveys that had a set of answers got many responses for these reasons: Having a baby would dramatically change my life I have completed my childbearing Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant It's also interesting to point out that most women cite two to four reasons for abortion, not just one. In general, younger women often cite that they are unprepared for the transition to motherhood, and older women consistently indicate that they are already responsible for children and/or are past the childbearing stage in their lives.” From: https://www.verywellhealth.com/reasons-for-abortion-906589 = = = = = = = = = Bolshevik: “In this thread we are talking about people whose minds and hearts are under the influence of a cult, women included. The actions of the leaders were spread into the behavior of the sheep, right?” Yes – BUT – I tend to think the abortion doctrine that TWI promoted and perhaps even in some anti-abortion groups there is a gender bias to it; Gender bias is a preference or prejudice toward one gender over the other - bias can be conscious or unconscious, subtle, or obvious. I believe in the context of TWI and in some anti-abortion groups the gender bias favors the men. Men assume authority over a woman’s reproductive freedom – it’s a method of control - in TWI a leader might tell the woman to get an abortion to cover the affair. Laws that make access to abortion difficult will usually have a negative impact financially and socially – according to the research I’ve seen. If it was the other way around – men getting pregnant instead of women – I bet men would have the reproductive freedom to make a choice – and I bet it would probably be for similar reasons i.e., financial, social, a threat to health. Most things are structured to give the male the advantage. It’s a man’s world. From an article “What Exactly Does 'It's A Man's World' Mean?” …Despite the fact that just more than 20 years ago, the National Institutes of Health (NIH) mandated diversity in its clinical trials, these pronounced gender and racial gaps persists. "Medical research that is either sex- or gender-neutral or skewed to male physiology," wrote the researchers of a study of disparities in medicine, "puts women at risk for missed opportunities for prevention, incorrect diagnoses, misinformed treatments, sickness and even death." It gets better. Until the passage of the Affordable Care Act, which eliminated overtly discriminatory gender pricing, women paid financially for not having male bodies. Prior to the act, 38% of women seeking individual insurance coverage were rejected, charged a higher premium on the basis of their gender (this was legal in 42 states), or had to purchase coverage that excluded the "pre-existing condition" of having been pregnant. Pregnancy is construed, as Travis put it, "as a disability, rather than, say, an additional ability," a matter of subjectivity in the end. In effect, having a female body was a limiting and expensive preexisting condition. (Women who'd survived domestic violence and sought prior medical attention were also uninsurable. The violence, unlike other crimes, was considered a "preexisting condition.") The way that insurance companies successfully commoditized this male-centeredness takes place every day. Women pay more for a non-standard, female "shrink it and pink it" marketing, not because the products and services are different, but because gender pricing is cheap, legal and highly profitable. In France, women have had enough and after widespread protests, France's finance ministry is investigating "the invisible woman tax" levied on thousands of products and services. Which gets us to law. Jurisprudence is still frequently based on "reasonable man" standards that assume male bodies and experiences. A man is far more likely to be threatened by another man who is not an intimate partner and is of roughly equal size and strength. Women, however, are most likely to be assaulted and killed by an intimate partner, most frequently a man, on average larger. In addition, our largely "sticks and stones" approach to crime is highly gendered in ways that hurt men and women. It is one that prioritizes visible, physical violence (masculinized) over invisible, psychological and emotional harm (feminized). Ideas about "imminent harm," and self-defense continue to ignore these critical differences. As a result, harms to women are minimized and women's survival strategies are criminalized and excessively punished. The average prison sentence for men who kill spouses is two to six years. Women? 15 years. Tens of thousands of women are in jail or dead because of these standards. From: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-exactly-does-its-a-mans-world-mean_b_7454660
    1 point
  27. Maybe you should. Maine is over 92% forest, with many rivers. We bought two woodlots, one parcel with a small bit of peat bog on it for $350 an acre and the other parcel has a quarter-mile of river frontage for $770 an acre. For a total of 150 acres of land. We heat our home with firewood, and we have a solar power system for our home and recently got a hybrid car that recharges from our solar system. Property taxes are pretty low [$1.05 per acre].
    1 point
  28. It's 24 and 11 for me. Okay with the first, still sad about the second. George
    1 point
  29. My daughter hadn't married her daughter's father when she realized she was pregnant. Still didn't for a couple of years but I'm glad she didn't abort either the pregnancy or the relationship. Later they had a son.
    1 point
  30. Interesting topic though. We claimed abortion was not murder. But when it came to my second child, unplanned.. at that moment, I felt that abortion would be murder. Abortion was not even an option. TWI's stance just kind of melted away like butter on a hot stove on a warm day..
    1 point
  31. I can't speak to his legacy, but my thoughts and prayers are with his family and those close to him. I have read that he died with family close by and in their loving regard. May that be true for all of us. https://youtu.be/85_7lEwyu5U
    1 point
  32. Or this one... https://www.npr.org/2021/09/18/1037975289/unvaccinated-covid-19-vaccine-refuse-nurses-heath-care-workers Honestly, the "why hasn't anyone asked these people" narrative is either misinformed or a flat out lie. But if you want to keep discussing it, maybe get the other side of the story from the 90+% of health care workers and nurses who have supported and taken the vaccines while holding the hands of dying patients who dismissed the severity of this disease until it was too late.
    1 point
  33. A genuine expression of my faith is to get vaxxed and where necessary wear a mask. Because it shows respect for, and protects, other people. An in part because I work with a lot of very elderly people. I don't want to be responsible for anything nasty for them. Right now, I have a heavy cold. Only a cold. Defo not covid; I tested. But when I went to church yesterday, I wore a mask. To protect others. It was either that, or not go at all. Is having respect for others really so hard for some people? Where, then, is one's "faith"?
    1 point
  34. BTW, Biblically, the idea that it's not "alive" or "a baby" until 9 months in, when he takes his first breath, is off by at least 3 months. https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24071-when-is-it-a-person-when-is-it-alive/ "When is it a person? When is it alive?" In the New Testament, vpw hung his "explanation" on a single, mistranslated verse, where Jesus Christ, before his birth, was supposedly called a "holy THING." An honest look shows that this word "thing" was only translated "thing" in that spot, and was a person everywhere else - a "holy one." It's obvious if you check the Greek. It's obvious if you check all the other usages of the same word with a Concordance. It's obvious if you check ALL THE OTHER ENGLISH VERSIONS. Even the NEW KJV doesn't use the word "thing" there. As for what we DO know, in Luke 1, we have a 3rd trimester ( 6 months in development) "BABY" (check the Greek, it's clearly "baby"-but usually "infant" or "young child" in other usages) who has EMOTIONS and responses. It's incredibly rare to see people trying to push this "first breath" doctrine of vpw, and, as we all know, it was remarkably self-serving. To vpw, children were an inconvenience on many levels. First, believers with kids weren't free to move if he told them to move, because they had a responsibility. Second, kids cost money, and vpw wanted all that money to come to him (indirectly to him via twi, from which he could raid the slush fund if it couldn't be untraceable cash in his hand- which it often WAS!) So, just like in his own life where he passed off raising children AND dogs for others to do the work, vpw didn't want twi'ers to have kids, especially if they weren't good little robots.
    1 point
  35. Note: I am overloaded with plenty of work this week...... so please don't take issue with my slow responses to this thread. Lots on my plate to get done.
    1 point
  36. "Strummin my pain with his fingers..."
    1 point
  37. That stems back to Pressed Down upstaging ole vic onstage and being sent out to do the trash run at HQ the next day as I undestand it. You know once Vic uttered anything it became gospel. The directors call it years of accumulated wisdom. I call it doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
    1 point
  38. Few of us are so thick that we can't see that these were unacceptable and mean-spirited, and unhealthy.
    1 point
  39. Your original post- and the thread- was posted/begin right now SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE of one person. Please don't pretend it was an amazing coincidence. We've been discussing the difference between what twi did and what we consider appropriate for the entire length of the thread. It's not "all about" JAL any more than it's "all about" twi's former practices of the hatchet job at the microphone.
    1 point
  40. The discussions are inextricably linked. Generally speaking, if a person is going to make a public figure of himself [a term that has different meanings in different contexts], then we are talking about different standards for "privacy."
    1 point
  41. I'll just say here what I said there: if be had promoted cigarettes and dismissed studies showing a link to disease and then died of lung cancer or COPD, the point would have been raised and there would not be a shred of controversy about it. In OUR community, JAL counts as a public figure. He's not being interviewed in that video because he was such a private fellow. Further, we are not debating or discussing his life choices. Had he kept them to himself, it would have been distasteful. JAL had a platform few of us have, and he used it to spread the kind of misinformation that is of a particular health risk to people in his medical situation. I cannot think of a set of circumstances that would make a public discussion of his *public* stance on this PUBLIC HEALTH issue MORE fair for comment here. He didn't keep his misinformation to himself. The fact that he mocked legitimate efforts to control the spread of an illness whose threat he minimized, AND that illness contributed to his premature death, is absolutely positively fair game. Let his legacy be a warning.
    1 point
  42. Let's crack it open on another thread. Im studying dispensationalism anyway and John went to the grave believing in administrations yet dispensationalism didn't exist really before John Nelson Darby. So theres that.
    1 point
  43. I love my parents and am closer to them now living farther away than I could be in the Way living in the same city. I'm glad they refused to carry a mortgage note for me so I could rent from them and be debt free like so many of the current Way leadership are doing. Bunch of damn hypocritical Pharisees.
    1 point
  44. See? I TOLD you! George
    1 point
  45. Instead of all of this, you could simply say Alexa, play sleep sounds
    1 point
  46. thanks all, for reminding me of what a memorial is about. It's a time to set aside our differences and instead talk about how we're all connected in some way. Over the years I’ve been to many funerals of parents and loved ones related to my friends and co-workers – many times I didn’t know the deceased personally. Afterwards I would try to think of something comforting and strengthening to say to my friend – and usually it was stuff about the loved one’s intangible legacy reflected in my friend’s life. Of the memories I have of John Lynn – several really stand out…I vaguely recall a story of John Lynn taking the PFAL class at home by himself – I think the PFAL class was mailed to his home? – not sure on that. Anyway – as the story goes, he started off listening to the last session first (the session wierwille leads the class into speaking in tongues). That always stuck with me because it shows he was the type of person who was adventurous and would go all in – even if it was something new and different. I think fundamentally, that is part of what makes someone a good leader – someone who can inspire …influence…guide others through their own lifestyle. Like Paw said “he led the charge against the way. Opened the eyes of many”. Maybe some of John Lynn’s legacy is reflected in what Grease Spot means to me. For me it continues to be an adventurous journey and as far as checking out new and different perspectives – I’m all in. Another thing that makes a good leader is being genuine. I think his enthusiasm was genuine and I loved his down-to-earth sense of humor – there was no pretension about being a perfect believer – his personal stories were relatable to many experiences I’ve had. He was passionate about what he preached – and I know I’ve commented about him being a good salesman – but even though I was never interested in some of what he said after leaving TWI – I’d give him a five-star rating for also being an honest salesman, who believed in “the product” – used it himself and thought it would help others. Way back in 83 / 84 he and his wife were going around doing Way Corps promos. After being at one of those promos and hearing John’s laid back and humorous sales pitch, I was pretty much sold on going into the corps. His wife Pat came to our home one day while I was at work. My wife was usually so uptight and nervous around any TWI-leadership – but Tonto told me she wasn’t around Pat. After seeing that Pat was easygoing and friendly – just like John , Tonto was pretty much sold on going into the corps too. It’s kind of jarring to me anytime I hear of someone I knew in TWI passing away. Especially if I didn’t see things eye to eye with them. Maybe it’s incongruous with being a human being. That's why I said at first a memorial is a time to set aside our differences and instead talk about how we're connected as human beings in some cosmic synchronicity sort of way. There’s more to life than just arguing over Bible stuff. I get into doctrine and practice debates and forget that it’s human beings on the receiving end of my words – or that I’m receiving transmissions from other fellow human beings in cyberspace. Life is about human beings – each of us on a self-determined journey. ( Note to self: Inform SETI I will be taking a sabbatical to search for life among human beings...my way of honoring John Lynn's sense of humor ) I pray for God to supply comfort and strength to his family, friends, and fans. (after posting this I thought of his sister Judy several times. Her and her husband Ken we’re in Family 12 when we were in our 2nd year as Family 11; I remember Judy as having a quick wit and electrifying personality just like her brother)
    1 point
  47. I certainly wasn't a devoted follower, but he was hard to not like.
    1 point
  48. First off thanks to Rocky for recommending “Love Wins” and also to everyone who commented on this thread – there’s a lot of good stuff!…I have to say I have not read such a thought-provoking book in a long time. And the oddly surprising thing about it was that I’m very familiar with the passages Bell gets into and I’ve even speculated along the lines of a few things he brought up. I’m just a casual Bible student and not in the same league as Bell being a deep-thinking and articulate pastor and author – so there’s something definitely uncanny when I come across someone who much more fluently and coherently expresses some things that have crossed my mind. One of the biggest things to hit me from the book was how relatable God is as our loving heavenly father. As a loving parent I would never give up on my kids – no matter what. Even if they became the most notorious criminals in the world – of course I would want them to pay their debt to society and hope for their rehabilitation while in prison – but regardless they’re still my kids – there’s something of me in them – I will always love them and care about their well-being. Bell’s book got me asking myself “Is God any less than that?”… It seems pretty clear to me from chapter 3 on Hell that with all the Old Testament passages, God’s intention has always been redemption, healing and restoration. The thing that really blew my mind was in chapter 4, when Bell points out Revelation 21:25 which says the gates to the eternal city will never be closed. People are free to come and go. That does not address the question will everybody be saved? But it does suggest God’s unfathomable love in designing a new world of freedom. God is love – and that is something you can’t demand from another – because true love gives freedom – so even in the next life we are free to choose whatever we want. The gates always remain open. If someone wants in - they can come in. If someone wants out - they can leave. If someone doesn’t want in - they can stay out. And to be realistic about freedom - as cool as heaven might sound – it stands to reason that some folks who willfully choose to live in a personal hell of their own design in this life may very well desire more of the same in the next. Maybe that’s what Revelation 22: 14 & 15 is talking about – of those outside the city – I don’t know – just speculating here. Another chapter that really excited was chapter 6 – There Are Rocks Everywhere. It made me think there is some kind of permeant quality about Jesus Christ – that he has penetrated every cultural, even if the Gospel has not reached there yet. Bell talks about missionaries who have traveled to the farthest reaches of the globe and people there hearing of Jesus for the first time. They respond “That’s his name? We’ve been talking about him for years.” Bell references John 14 - where Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” I was flabbergasted to read Bell’s comments on that: “What he doesn’t say is how, or why, or in what manner the mechanism functions that gets people to God through him. He doesn’t even state that those coming to the Father through him will even know that they are coming exclusively through him. He simply claims that whatever God is doing in the world to know and redeem and love and restore the world is happening through him.” That makes me want to rethink what I know of other religions and cultures. It kinda makes sense to me that if God is so loving and wants to give everyone a chance, then he wouldn’t set up some exclusive venue with limited access. Romans 2 does seem to suggest that the requirements of the law are written on everyone’s heart, our consciences providing testimony and God will judge everyone through Jesus Christ. “Everyone” means everyone. Over the years my wife and I have had many discussions to try and expand our horizons beyond some of the narrow concepts we’ve been taught – she'll probably read “Love Wins” too, since I've talked about some of the book with her. And lastly, I’ve mentioned on a few other threads my fascination with superstring theory and extra dimensions. Bell uses it as a springboard to suggest Jesus’ talk of the kingdom of God as being an all-pervasive dimension of being, that was here, at hand, right now. Basically that was Jesus’ answer when the Pharisees asked him when the kingdom was coming - see Luke 17: 20 & 21 . Something like this always makes me wonder about the nature of the spiritual realm. I usually think of it as something distinctly not me…really another dimension and perhaps a place far away from me. But in superstring theory multidimensional particles could be compacted and folded up inside each other – and as far as we know nonexistent compared to our experience of only 3 dimensions and the passage of time… …And I guess if one could control how multidimensional particles are compressed and rolled up – then it would be possible to change the properties or characteristics of something. Makes me think of the city bending scene in the dream sequences of the movie Inception and the manipulation of reality scene in the movie Dr. Strange ...And probably the movie that comes closest to describing a world within a world is the scene of a futuristic city popping up in the middle of an open field in the movie Midnight Special (happens at about 2:15 minutes into the You Tube clip). Indeed some passages like II Peter 3:10 and Revelation 6: 12 - 17 that talk about the heavens disappearing with a roar, the elements destroyed by fire and the sky being split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up fires my imagination of what might happen on a cosmic scale… ...The majority of books I’ve read and scripture that I’ve studied have always reminded me of a transcendent God. Bell’s book got me to think about the immanence of God in the comprehensive and eternal work of Jesus Christ in all people in all situations. Something Bell said about God’s love near the end of the book seemed to circle back to superstring theory (the “stuff” of extra-dimensions curled up into a compact space) – but His love is not static or diminutive in any way – “the indestructible love of God is an unfolding, dynamic reality and that every single one of us is endlessly being invited to trust, accept, believe, embrace, and experience it.”
    1 point
  49. The Concluding Summation of my personal experience with The Way International.......is summed up in five words. TWI IS A FvCKING CULT !!!
    1 point
  50. 1 point
×
×
  • Create New...