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Funnily enough, I was thinking of this only today. Thinking of the positive things I'd learned and done in TWI (and there definitely were some positives). Some were where confidence had been expressed in me where I'd never done a thing before. Some things were enjoyable - especially at the beginning of each year. And I met some awesome people (most of whom, regrettably, soon disappeared - whether voluntarily or pushed is a mystery), both within my Corps and on staff - mostly low-level staff, I have to say. However, there were many negatives. One of which was the destruction of any confidence of any kind that I had. The sense of oppression and fear that developed. The micromanagement. The face-meltings for using one's God-given common sense instead of checking with some "leader." The snitchiness and brown-nosing of some others of my Corps. The spying on each other, and the paranoia that developed from that. Now, I am part of a great church that genuinely and heartily serves its community. All the churches of all denominations work together in my small city to reach out to all groups of people. But nobody is bullied into doing anything; people want to participate and don't have to be asked. I only have to look at the awesome people in my church and associated churches within the benefice and within the community, to see something amazing and so diametrically opposite to anything in TWI that - well, it's joy and sunshine, contrasted with misery and drabness. I'm a little nostalgic for the friends I'd started to make, some of the fun we had, and the sometimes sense of cameraderie. But that's all. There is NO BLOODY WAY that I would or could endure the organizational thuggery now. Maybe that should be NO BLOODY WAY for emphasis.

Speaking only for myself, I believe this is the salient point of this thread.

Throughout all (without exception) of victor’s writings and sermons, hundreds, even thousands, of contradictions like this are NOT merely apparent. They literally leap off the page to stand unassailable on their own, above all.

"The Word" said whatever Wierwille wanted it to say. Problem solved.

I ran across this article in Psych Today talking about “nostalgia bias” where people attach to and recollect only positive things about their past. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/checkpoints/202302/exploring-nostalgia-bias I wonder if nostalgia bias is what keeps many of these people who have been abused by TWI hanging around and pushing for better times. Nostalgia bias would be a huge reason behind the modern TWI push of going back to PFAL and back to the “Word Over the World” messaging. Taking items from the highest participation period in the cults history the strategic approach is to make the Way “feel” like the good ole days in the hippie times where people were strumming guitars in parks and witnessing and thousands were “taking the class”. Nostalgia bias can keep people hanging around doing the same things sending in the same checks listening to the same stories obeying the same dictators. It can keep people only reading the same “collaterals” for decades without ever considering new and better sources. I actually am opposed to the nostalgia bias making my life’s decisions and want to and am purposefully crafting my future in the direction best for me, my family, my peace of mind, and my spiritual development outside the constrained inputs from a cult.

That's pretty much the same principle we see in effect when Gideon's discussed. He overthrew Baal's altar, and when people protested, he complained that BAAL should protest, since BAAL is the one who was offended. So, Gideon got the nickname "Jerubbaal", "Contender with Baal." Much later, Gideon was referred to as "Jerubbesheth", or "Contender with Idols." Rather than continue to give Baal free press, the nickname was changed to refer to idols, still referencing the same incident.

Greetings, earthlings. fwiw, imho, If I may...Tragic as this may sound, I find it helps to notice how our general social and cultural fluency and competency in symbol, myth, and archetypes and such seems currently mostly in a dumpster fire. And there is this seeming endless war, not only between many folks holding onto various conflicting so-called literal interpretations of ancient writings, but between many other folks who easily debunk the many so-called literal interpretations yet also seem to believe they have debunked religion altogether and erased all its value from the past, present and future of our planet. Meanwhile, all along, many other folks have been interpreting and living and applying all that religion in significantly sound and vital ways, but are also either ignored, avoided, attacked or simply remain undiscovered by all the other folks. Some good news, perhaps, is that its not only possible to find real meaning in storytelling, but our wisdom, sanity and wholeness has always depended on our capacities to do so. "Truth, naked and cold, had been turned away from every door in the village. Her nakedness frightened the people. When Parable found her she was huddled in a corner, shivering and hungry. Taking pity on her, Parable gathered her up and took her home. There, she dressed Truth in story, warmed her and sent her out again. Clothed in story, Truth knocked again at the doors and was readily welcomed into the villagers’ houses. They invited her to eat at their tables and warm herself by their fires." Jewish teaching story.

"I think having that information that the "profit" that founded the Way and was in my eyes close to faultless as a person can be, was not as Christ like as they played themselves to be will be a final blow to deconstructing all of my beliefs. " This is easy to find around here. What can I say, briefly? According to his own words, vpw chose between 3 professions, 1 of which was ministry, 1 was business, 1 was music. So, it wasn't a calling, but a vocation. Besides, the other 2 would have been more work. vpw plagiarized his way through his early years as a minister, and in his first year, he REPEATEDLY considered giving up- in his own words! How would he have treated any twi'er who even CONSIDERED giving up twice in a year? When he set up the way corps, he did so with no experience in ANY form of training program whatsoever, and the only official rule for determining if someone was ready was what he said to lcm- "YOU CAN STAY AS LONG AS YOUR MONEY HOLDS!" vpw dismissed an entire early group of corps abruptly. He went to each one later, and offered them a "second chance" -if they were willing to swear an oath of loyalty to him PERSONALLY. Not all of them accepted, but most apparently did. vpw's claim to fame was the pfal class- all 3 levels of it. Nearly the entire contents of them were plagiarized from BG Leonard, EW Bullinger, JE Stiles or EW Kenyon. Early versions of the White Book (RTHST) mentioned him meeting a man who put the subject together like a hand in a glove- that was JE Stiles- but by the 3rd edition, this mention was dropped completely. The White Book's 1st edition was largely Stiles' book "Gifts of the Spirit" just retyped with a few words moved around. If you have your copy still, you can prove it right now. Flip to the FAQ. There's a question where the answer is phrased that vpw calls some type of people "FAITH BLASTERS." vpw NEVER called ANYONE "faith blasters"- that was Stiles. According to vpw's own claims, he should have called them a "believing-blaster" if anything- but he ripped the FAQ off of Stiles. BTW, if you move the words around and rip off the content but rephrased, that's still plagiarism. If you remove from the pfal classes everything that came straight from Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard, you have less than a session of the foundational, and something like that for the others. Keep in mind that vpw never said that pfal was a compilation of the works of others. A few times he made off-hand comments about SOME content. If you have the book-length advertisement for twi, "The Way- Living in Love," about 200 pages in, vpw said that nothing he did was original except for the way he put it together. Apologists for vpw like to claim that one passing reference, buried in the book, qualifies as him saying pfal was a compilation and not original. It falls far, far short of either. BTW, the very first pfal class was Leonard's class on "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" that vpw sat through 1 1/2 times. vpw retaught Leonard's content entirely. (People who were grads of Leonard's class were considered automatically to be grads of vpw's class.) vpw rarely mentioned Leonard because the plagiarism there was blatant and too obvious if one looks closely. Not long after that, vpw ran across Stiles, then got Stiles' book and retyped it into the White Book. If you actually caught vpw doing that, he occasionally would claim he worked all the error out of the works of others- but he did not. He seemed not to understand their work, and copied it over with errors intact. So, Bullinger's errors got included (like the difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God) and Leonard's errors got included (like the definitions of the manifestations), and so on. He moved some words around to make plagiarism less obvious, and made some things wordier, but did not improve upon their substance. Most people would claim that the sheer dishonesty involved with all that would disqualify vpw as a leader of anything. But that's only part of things, since it leaves out the molestation, the rapes, the drugging, and so on.

While it might not always be that obvious or apparent or easy to identify, all logic and reason starts with and builds on a premise that is simply accepted and presumed to be true, regardless of whether it is properly identified, or how common and universally accepted that premise is (or isn't.) I don't think this is missing from Paul's writings... but, perhaps it is not all that obvious. I think parts of it show up in places like Romans 3:23. Unless or until someone relates to that, there probably isn't going to be much sense in (or need for) a personal savior, much less any change in the already common and universally accepted basis for reality in their heart. Where or how does any change start? Well, regardless of whatever words are spoken, even by the apostle Paul himself, it appears they are only attended to when the Lord opens someone's heart. see Acts 16:14.

You know, it's funny, when you go into something with a preconceived notion about what you WANT to get out of it, you miss what actually WAS said. Thank you, Nathan, for your assistance there. I was waiting for a discussion about doctrine and evidence and I totally missed the message about tolerance and faithfulness [what I would have called, in another time, the "stayed mind"].

Just for the record, from my files: Wierwille's contradictory teachings on "soul life" 1971: Wierwille's Power for Abundant Living book, Pg. 237 “The soul life is in the blood and is passed on when the sperm impregnates the egg at the time of fertilization.” 1977: Christian Family and Sex class, 1977 syllabus, Pg. 12 “The most dramatic part of the birth is the crowning because this is when the baby takes its first breath of life and becomes a living soul.” 1979: Advanced Class on Power for Abundant Living, Segment 9 (on tape which I no longer have): “The first breath of a child is soul life, until that time, there’s no soul life.”

She's a critic of Christian fundamentalism as a prevailing political force in America today, right? She is a critic of the "toxic masculinity" embodied by political leaders who can just grab women by the *****. Her book is Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. My understanding of what she is saying in this disjointed interview is that she is STILL a Christian in spite of all the ***** grabbing justified by so-called Christians; and she remains a Christian in spite of being personally attacked by right wing Christian fundamentalist evangelicals. She makes a distinction between mere "proclaimers of Christ" and "followers of Christ," implying that she is the latter. Amid the backlash from her book, she says she questioned her own faith and identity as a Christian, but she had a "religious experience" and is now at peace with calling herself a Christian. She talks about becoming more tolerant of Christian traditions outside her own (Dutch Reformed). Though she was raised to look at all other denominations as wrong (sound familiar?), she now looks to learn from other traditions and even re-examine her own for errors. She claims to confess the Nicene Creed. Someone earlier said if you don't confess the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, you aren't a Christian. Well, it sounds like she's covered, if that's a fundamental metric. When asked what it means to be a Christian, she offered two points. One was community. I don't remember the other. I don't think she gave a strong answer here. Sounds to me like she's a Christian, but it doesn't really matter to me. We agree on at least one thing, though: grabbing women by the ***** is not very Christ-like.

And for something completely different, try this: Izar Ederrak (Beautiful Star) - it's in Basque (Spain) and we were provided with a translation and a pronunciation guide. What any Basque speakers would make of our singing ... let's hope there are none in the audience! The song grows on you after a while.

My choral group is putting on a concert this coming Saturday. This is a carol you probably won't have heard. It was composed by one of our singers.

Many of the wars fought throughout history, and certainly those of the present time, are carried out in the name of religion. It really doesn’t matter what religion it, at some point they have murdered others in the name of their god. The death, destruction and pain inflicted upon their adversarial religions, are not the actions of those worshipping a loving god. One has to ask why did these so called loving gods create an adversarial god, that would under all circumstances, oppose them? Supposedly it is because this creating god was so lonely for love, he made little creatures in his image. And these creatures would be put through tests to determine if they loved this god. If they failed the test, they would be turned over to the adversarial god for eternal destruction. Does not make sense from a logical point of view. I wonder if John Lennon could really “Imagine” fulfilling all the points he sang about in that song? It is certainly difficult to see where he “had no possessions,” in his life. Lennon was one of those who lived by, do as I say, not as I do.

"One of the most unexpected gifts you can receive is an early loss. Missing out on a job you really wanted. Trying a business idea that fails. Suffering a heartbreak. An early setback can become the catalyst for a wonderful next chapter—if you channel the emotion effectively. Disappointment is a hot burning fuel. Let it light your fire to become better." James Clear, author of Atomic Habits James Clear seems to be all about showing people how to shed their victimhood and maximize their agency. In that regard, I'm most grateful (besides for YOU, dear reader) for being on the doorstep of the next chapter of my life. As a nephew noted to me recently, I have a voice and can reach (some) people. I'm excited to see what that will look like as I am about to embark on my 70th trip around the sun. I must have blinked somewhere along the line, because I could have sworn I had just turned 34 and had my first offspring. The ride has been kinda bumpy. But I'm still upright and more thankful than ever.

We here have all been victims, one way or another. Do we choose to stay victims? I stayed a victim for a long time, too fearful to dare to be other. But even that fear is a part of the growing experience. Now I have something truly to share with those people who are escaping abusive relationships, fear of many kinds, and those who feel incapacitated. I feel that all my life experiences so far, both good and bad, help me to help someone else. Life is not what I expected 20, 30, 40 or more years ago. Whose is, really? Those who can't or won't learn from failures will be victims all their lives, with chips the size of skyscrapers on their shoulders.

Anyone who has never failed has never tried hard enough.

I agree. I have his main book, and it is almost identical to my theory on free will. I came to the same conclusions he has about "will power," but from a different direction. I came up with the same main idea he has, except he has applied it to real life in a brilliant way. I only really applied my theory to laboratory neuroscience research, and barely touched on the practical uses in everyday living, while this seems to be his main focus. Yes, James Clear is onto something very hot and useful.

Raf clears the table! (Been practicing billiards lately?) A) 1605 was the last time- before JP1- that there were 3 different Popes in the same calendar year. It has to coincide with the conclaves agreeing in a few months on the next pope, and a pope dying after a short term in office. So, one pope dies, the conclave selects the next pope quickly, who also dies, and the conclave picks his successor quickly. So, in one calendar year, that happened with JP1 but hadn't happened for the previous 450 or so years. B) JP1 picked two names- John and Paul, which was unique in papal history. First time ever. C) JP1 called himself "the First" rather than simply "Pope John Paul", and that also was a first. D) 3 previous popes had officially been poped and had died shorter into their terms than he did, but since those weren't recent, a lot of conspiracy theories popped up.

It seems that others have asked the same question.

They didn't send me a card. I feel a little disappointment. For them. But this is not uncommon. I generally work the front lines.. lines constantly shifting.. I observe the same behavior in every organization I'm involved with.. they seem to have absolutely no clue what is really happening at the front line of attack.. they would not recognize the Devil if he bit them in the foot.. lets see how the profanity filter works here..\

See, that's my problem. If it's history, it's not credible and the only reason to discuss it is politics. If we're talking about doctrine, there's really nothing debatable about it. Yeah, God said this land is your land. Doctrinally. But history can't even document the existence of Abraham, never mind God. And if we're going to allow divine real estate transactions to determine land rights, there are probably a handful of Native American believers in the Great Spirit who have a problem or two with our current state borders. Oh, but THEIR Great Spirit is not God. Got it.

It's one of the risks of AI. How does one know? But heuristics and epistemology have been problematic for ages. Someone asserts a claim of fact. How do you know? I saw it on (insert social media of choice). "John 10:10; therefore, there must be keys." Huh? Yeah, victor paul wierwille said so. Oooooohhhhhh.... well, in that case...it MUST be true. Quick! Someone post this non sequitur to Facebook! Post it twice to establish it. IDGAF how TWI characterizes that website or this one. I characterize TWI and victor paul wierwille as terrorists. Hey! I didn't write the book.

I can see the court interaction now. “That site is inaccurate and slanderous”. Judge: “Every statement on the website has a footnoted source. Which is more than you can say for your main class PFAL” Lol

There's no real way for me to judge without experiencing her church for 6-12 months and see for myself, but she seems to believe in predestination i.e. everything is in place, ordained by God regardless of one's faith? i.e. Jesus paid for the sins of mankind therefore everyone is saved regardless? She believes in the Nicene Creed but is that alone enough to be saved? Again, need more exposure I think.

This one was easy for me: "The Way reportedly teaches that members will suffer harm or death if they go into debt" Here's one from me: "The Way reportedly teaches that members will suffer harm or death if they do not tithe or abs." It can scare the living crap out of someone who takes this seriously.

That is quite a website. It looks like a similar layout for a number of different cults. I have no idea who put it up. It looks like it was done with a bot or LLM tool. For every claim they state they cite a source. So even if some of the claims seem exaggerated they literally have a source where a leader or account verifies the statement. This type of activity is a great counter to the whitewash movement. With sources for everything it is protected legally as well as it shows what really occurred as opposed to a leaders spin on what occurred. In other words, this website is a great model for TWI where they could learn about footnotes, bibliographies, and other modern methods in the publishing and academic industries. You know, the things missing from all of VPs “research”. The website also with footnotes make it harder for the TWI leadership to deny claims and justify actions. Every claim made is substantiated by a footnote. Wow, what an earth shattering idea.

It’s hard to tell with those details. What was the tract she was holding? Was it from some organization? I always answer the door with Mormon missionaries by saying “oh I see you gentlemen are out looking for some help with your tie selection.”

Blood transfusion is forbidden.

I always try to be be polite about it. (I used to hate rudeness when I went door-to-door in TWI.) You could try a little white lie, though, such as telling them you're feeling weak from your recent blood donation.

It's one thing to be an arrogant know it all and another to be arrogant and think no one knows anything including one's self except for what is arrogantly posted as if it means something to anyone. That's not the only 2 ways to do it either.

I’m getting to her testimony but dear baby Jesus on a pogo stick they have more “woke” labels starting out that podcast than I can even concentrate on. Hopefully that won’t obscure her message. Well she seems to talk all around the topic as opposed to addressing the commonly held definitions of Christianity. Jesus and John Wayne seems to attack the male image in religion - the topic seems more “wokism” than “faith” regardless of the truth of male dominated organizations. I agree with her sentiments on feeling the need to prove her background and views especially labels like “Calvinist”. Christianity to me is from the heart and judged by God not some kind of 90 page questionnaire checking boxes on aligned theology. She has good advice on having a thick skin if you are going to explore your faith in an online community. Lol. Christianity with a non Fundamentalist view is very different to all of us raised in Fundamentalist teachings. We expect an exact answer to everything when that is not realistic and is not life. She talks about her circle of influence and keeping them valuable and positive. She talks about her church - Reformed Christian not Evangelical Christian - that can help differentiate and navigate common modern organizations. She has her niche and her circle of friends. That is good. I get really lost trying to place her inner faith message with all of the modern and woke labels and descriptions. Accepting variances of views in other Christians while still working with them praying with them interacting and doing ministry work with them to me is the crux of all the teachings on one body of Christ which TWI has missed for decades generations and most of their lifetimes.

So, now you're going to attack me for merely posting my opinion on the piece? No wonder so few post here anymore...

Only once did I wonder if a post of mine had been deleted (can't remember now what it was about), but I found it disappeared along with some others when GSC downloaded that new program. About the video, you know how twi whitewashed the truth about vp (and is still doing it); you can expect the same to be going on here. Bickle has agreed to the church's terms to stop all ministering in person and on social media but he has many devoted followers in leadership. This is the man who led that church into an extreme teaching of the song of Solomon being about the bride of Christ and Jesus. All romantic and sexual phrases and verses were how their followers began to relate to Jesus in their words, prayers and songs written by them. His end times teachings are horrendous as well. I came to learn about this guy through the Vineyard church I was attending. Anyway, I don't believe the truth about the sexual misconduct will ever come to light if the investigation is not a totally independent one. So thanks again to anyone who takes a few minutes to add their name to the petition!

Just me. Kristen has way to words for me to sort through. I prefer the short answer. Not hostile here.. just too much to listen to. I will accept the declaration of faith.. don't need a whole heck of a lot of justification. I'll take you at your (hopefully shorter) word for it.. don't need a whole another epistle to sort through.. I would prefer dialogue.

I dunno. I like a simpler answer of about 3 seconds.. maybe because God still loves me.. heh. Doesn't give me pretty much any other of a choice.. heh.

don't know which I am most of the time, both I'm sure saw your edit in the 1st post, modcat, no problems, these things work themselves out

Imagine modern day despots…… Who are actually atheists. Ok that’s my attempt at writing another verse…

Actually I'm not.. just honest .. heh

there's more than one way to cut the pie, the true ninja slicer can use two knives why does the flaming sword protecting the tree of life turn Every way? not just one way

This is a bit but ever since I watched the movie “Men Who Stare at Goats” I have had to construct a Boston road-trip playlist that really captures this.

Twinky you can get both of Charlene’s books on Kindle. Do a search for author.

In my humble opinion, the so-called Idiom of Permission as an explanation for Yahweh's behavior in the Old Testament does not survive Occam's Razor, which is "the answer that requires the fewest assumptions is usually the correct one." The Old Testament writers told us who Yahweh was. His character changed over time. Different writers gave him different attributes, depending on the point they were making for the story they were telling. When God needed to be limited, he was. When he needed to be omni-everything, he was. When an explanation was needed for why Israel did not prevail in a military conflict, God had a problem seeing through lead overcoming chariots of iron. The Idiom of Permission provides a way to explain away that which was never intended to be dismissed in the first place. God sent the Flood. He didn't allow it to be sent. Genesis is clear. He did it. The angel of death in Egypt (which, it must be said, never happened)? That was Yahweh too. Exodus is explicit. But He's LOVE! He couldn't have! So we invent an explanation to retroactively absolve him of responsibility for that which he explicitly wanted credit! What happened? This is not hard. The people worshipping God changed. Their values changed. Their God (who cannot change) changed with them. Suddenly he never would have done any such thing. But he said he did? Hmmm. It was a figure of speech! Get it? Anyway, that's my nickel. I know, it's supposed to be two cents. But inflation's a bitch.

“[vpw] occasionally would claim he worked all the error out of the works of others- but he did not. He seemed not to understand their work, and copied it over with errors intact. So, Bullinger's errors got included (like thedifference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God) and Leonard's errors got included (like the definitions of the manifestations), and so on. He moved some words around to make plagiarism less obvious, and made some things wordier, but did not improve upon their substance.” This observable, demonstrable fact of actual reality is not mentioned enough. The plagiarism is frequently observed, sure, but the plagiarized errors and stupidities… wow. it’s a different level of dishonesty. It’s willful ignorance. It’s contempt of truth. All of this is unrighteous. The apologist will rebuff with, “By what measure? Churchianity’s? Five senses realm? Man’s law?” These are but flimsy, rhetorical cop outs designed to deflect and distract. No. vpw was unrighteous by the very measure of Righteousness itself.

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No politics, Allan.

Hi there, so glad you found Undertow helpful. Thanks for reading it and passing it along. Cheers! For more of my work, check out blogs on the cult topic and on fundamentalism that are stored on my website: Cults Archives | Page 11 of 11 | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com) Fundamentalism Archives | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)