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DWBH, what can I say? Thank you SO much for the love and your comments. I can’t quite find the words to tell you all how much I appreciate being welcome here. To answer a couple comments - I have 4 therapists and am on a battery of meds. I’ve been doing this latest round of hard work with said therapists for a year and a half. I think what has discouraged me is how deep the injuries go into my subconscious mind. But I am and will continue working. Being ME here is a big step I’ve wanted to take for years. Thanks again for the comfort <3

Hey, all. It’s been awhile since I’ve stepped into the diner. I’m outing myself today because it’s too painful to keep my silence anymore, and I’m struggling right now. My name is Leah - I’m LCM’s oldest child. I don’t know what to do next...I feel like I need to speak, but I don’t know what to say. I’m just so tired of hurting. Penworthy, it’s lovely to “see” you here. I so appreciate your compassion...

Welcome, Leah. About time!! You will get a lot of support here.

Oh Leah, I am so happy you are here. You know I love you and am here whenever you want to talk! I had no idea that you were BecomingMe. Wow! You are cared about here in ways you'll never fully know!

Hi Leah! Don’t you dare quit! You ARE on the right path. It’s right because YOU are choosing it. YOU are determining who YOU are! That is the single most difficult task of human development, and at the same time, the most rewarding and fulfilling. That’s why I said, “don’t you dare quit”. You will make it to your authentic YOU if you just keep on going. Damn the hurt, the pain, the fear, the shame, the guilt, and the weariness. Just keep on keepin’ on! According to the 8 stages of human development, the 4th One is “identity formation”. Usually, according to the data, it occurs between the ages of 20-32. It follows adolescence, (12-19), and it is THE critical stage of human development. Observe the usual activities people in the age range 20-32 are engaged in these days in our frenetic culture.....college, trade school, the military, all crucial development tools which help one to self-determine her/his occupation, basic philosophy of life, and accepting who you have decided to be. For most of us here, those were the very years we got involved with TWIt. The TWIt cult stunted our development at the most critical stage. Dictor paul’s psychiatric dysfunctions and perversions, along with the Nazi-like authoritarianism and militarism of his corpse program produced what I term, a forced adolescence upon all wayfers, because the way took over determining our identities with it’s cult indoctrination and a rigid military-like discipline in order to “be the best” according to what the cult determined was “best”, period. But, the incredible cognitive dissonance we all experienced between what wierwille said and what wierwille DID became too much for us to bear, eventually driving our “authentic” selves back to the surface from under the smothering mind control and extreme peer pressure from the cult, and, avouding a psychological breakdown, we summoned enough personal courage to get the hell out of Dodge and retake control of our own, authentic lives....lives WE choose and people WE choose to be with. That’s where the anxiety and depression become an issue. There is so much cognitive dissonance that it usually requires professional help from a licensed counselor in order to sort it all out. It is, unfortunately, a necessity for most, because we have no sense of ourselves outside the complete dominance of the cult in every part of our minds and bodies. Our personal human development was detoured by a destructive religious cult, but by the strength of will and reason, WE now get to determine who and what we are according to OUR standards, beliefs, and desires. This takes time and a bunch of getting used to, but the end of adaptation is FREEDOM, liberty, and confidence that you can do it again as often as necessary. As you can see, I too can ramble! LOL. But more importantly, I want to strongly encourage you to keep on going! YOU ARE on the right path for YOU. We’ve all been at multiple crossroads in our lives, and we are here to help, to listen, to encourage, to inspire, and to hug whenever you need help along your journey to self-actualization. A cool glass of water and a cold, juicy peach on a hot day, passed on to a fellow traveller with love, unspoken understanding, and a joyful smile to help you hang in there baby!! That’s the GSC. As you said, by the grace of God, you have a full life! A loving partner, 2 lovely babies, a good career doing something YOU love because YOU love it and trained for it. YOU did all that! YOU! And YOU will conquer the current difficulties with the help of others also traveling the freedom road to self-identification and rewarding fulfillment......you’ll see REAL fruit of the spirit in your life and you will be happy and at peace. Don’t you dare quit! We love YOU because of who and what YOU are. You belong. You are free to be you. Just do it! We’ll help in any way we can. Peace.

Well, I only feel comfortable speaking for myself, and I’m not so great. Working on it, though. I have a life that is full and that I’m really grateful for - two little girls, a husband (also a former Way kid), a career that I love in education. Now if I can work out really detaching the old way programming from my head, I’ll be all right...

Gimme the sermon I heard in church last Sunday, any time. I really think that many of these people at R&R started out with a desire to love God, but got sidetracked along the way, fell into the ego tramp, and now they're climbing the greasy pedestal. Mary likes to hang about and talk to people, especially newbies. Is that because it gives her the opportunity to show off her supposed knowledge? It'd be nice if one or some of them spoke about the six months or year or more that they had spent volunteering daily (or at least weekly) at a shelter for homeless people, or for battered wives, or helping drug addicts, prostitutes, child laborers, and such like. You know, the ones with no money and a hard attitude to life. The ones who call "do-gooder" hypocrisy for what it is. Some place these teachers get their hands dirty in the sh-t of life. Fab opportunities to see people really turn their lives around; it's a very slow process.

You can do it. We "hold the space" for you, as they say. When I say that, I imagine our arms around you, shielding you, providing good energy for you to stand on your own. As DWBH said, YOU have made this progress. YOU are a beautiful human being.

Hi, this is Penworks. My heart goes out to you, Becoming Me. You have great courage. Take good care of yourself.

What does that mean. Dukie? LCM was insane, and caused so much pain and hurt? Because that's the reality. I suffered much because of this man and his perverted teachings. It has stolen many years of my life. It was painful. It isn't now. You will probably find most of the posters on this thread think similarly. We post here of our experiences, not because we hang onto the past in an unhealthy way, but because it seems that many still don't know or understand. It sounds rather like you are one of those people.

Me, too. Let us know how you want to be addressed (like "Leah", or "Becoming", or "BeMe", or "Snoogy-Woogy Wips" or whatever. (Probably not that last one....) You might have a lot of questions which we might be able to answer. (Or you may not, which is fine.) If we can answer, we will. If you just need to vent with people who get it, well, this would be the place to vent. If there's anything else, well, we'll give it a shot. And we also play games if you just want to play,- see the Music/Movies/Books/Art forum. Stay as long as you need to, or want to.

I can only imagine the courage it takes to come forward. Welcome, Leah.

I assure you, that is NOT rambling. I'm in my mid-60s now, was 19 when I first met a wayfer and 31 when I exited the cult. I married at age 34. My (fairly short) marriage was tumultuous largely because I didn't grow up learning about personal boundaries and twi exacerbated the problem. I too have dealt with PTSD (not diagnosed) and depression and anxiety (diagnosed). I've also experienced grace in my life since. Lots of it. My two grandchildren are my greatest joy. I'm retired now and spend a lot of time writing and reading. Much love to you, BecomingMe!

Leah, I applaud your bravery. I stand with you. I'm confident you don't remember me, but I was at Emporia in the late 1970s with the 9th. Whatever we at GSC can do for you, please let us (privately or not) know.

Control is at stake. On that topic, check out an excellent video on the topic of "undue influence." It's the second "story" on the home page of the International Cultic Studies Association. "Undue influence" is a term that describes the overreaching control that cultic groups exert over members. Description on website: "This talk will explain how the legal concept of undue influence, which has existed for centuries, can be helpful to former members of cultic groups today. Judges have hesitated or refused to hear testimony about brainwashing, mind control, and thought reform on the grounds, that, in their opinion, these concepts lack scientific validity. How can expert witnesses be more persuasive in court? What will help bring clever influencers to justice? The discussion will focus on how the undue influence concept can be updated and applied to cultic relationships, human trafficking, domestic violence, and other influence situations." https://www.icsahome.com/

Wow, you all are wonderful! I love that I’m engaging with people who understand!! I do have several people in my life that came out of the way, but many of you have a different perspective, which I find valuable. I’m so grateful for the level of insight and kindness you all share. I really appreciate all the book recommendations - I will add them to my list :-) When I was first half-in, half-out and trying to figure out what to do, Greasespot was so helpful, especially the documents that came directly from the way. By that time, I understood that I wanted to be part of things that practiced compassion and kindness; I came to see those qualities as moral. Reading LCM’s letters, etc, I realized how little compassion he practiced (yes, understatement of the century). It was a major help in my decision. So, thank you all for engaging with me, and thanks for keeping this cafe up and running! I’ll keep ramblin’ with you!

Thanks, everyone, for the welcome. I find that through these difficulties, others’ compassion is pure gold. I love that several of you are here to help the rest of us - thank you! Taxidev and Waysider, I would say I’m atheist when I’m angry and agnostic when I’m calm. It’s wonderful that so many perspectives are represented here. That’s how we learn, right? I’m finding lately that some of the things I still struggle with have so much to do with cult practices - “us vs. them” being one of them. It seems to me that served the purpose of keeping people trapped. At the same time, I do believe the people that promoted these ideas - the leaders of the 90s, at least, were true believers. I’ve run into people who assume/believe they all had nefarious intentions, but in knowing some of them, they believed the, um, stuff they were spreading. Doesn’t really make me any less angry, but...perhaps slightly more compassionate. T-Bone, I’ve read Undertow and really loved it. I think Penworks was both direct and compassionate in her telling, and I so appreciated that. Pretty much every person who has been a major influence in my early life is or was in twi. There’s so much of the love I’ve experienced mixed in with basically abuse and violation, and that’s incredibly difficult to separate. Anyway, I tend to ramble, so, thank you all for welcoming me. :-)

I would like to point out, for new arrivals, that being a Christian is not a requirement of this site. People from a wide variety of belief systems and those with no belief system at all are equally welcome here. This public service announcement has been brought to you by the makers of.......

Raf, I agree!! Leah has perhaps more courage than most of us; she certainly has more than me!!

Actually, we really welcome people reading old posts. Sometimes it's what helps them make sense of what they saw, or what happened to them, during their time with TWI. And sometimes people can add an update on old material, if they've left more recently. If you are a recent leaver, Dukie, you are welcome to post what you know; you are welcome to add to current threads. You can have any viewpoint you like (some here are adamant Wierwille haters, others have been adamant Wierwille proponents). Just understand that what you post may be subject to challenge and debate, and if you post nonsense or abusive posts, you will be called on such posts.

1. "Sadly, I cannot get this man to accept the notion that the Bible really is the word of God." Ok, let's start there. The Bible never calls itself the Word of God. That's part of the problem right there. The Bible speaks of the Word of God quite often, but it never has the self-awareness to declare itself to be that Word. Maybe, just maybe, you can be wrong about the Bible being the Word of God and still be a good Christian. 2. "I think he would like it to be..." Well, no one asked you what you think, did they? Maybe he has no preference one way or another and is just waiting for you to make a plausible case for your thesis. 3. "... but is overly obstinate and has an awful attitude towards God and his plan for man's redemption." A lot to unpack there. Has it occurred to you that maybe YOU're the one being "obstinate" with an "attitude" that won't budge no matter how many facts he presents to counter your preconceived notion that the Bible is the Word of God? Like, maybe YOU're the stubborn one, not him? Because he shows you the Bible, and you start making excuses. Oh, that's the Old Testament. God's different now. He's really kind and gentle. He did what he did before because he HAD to to fulfill the plan of redemption. Problem: The plan of redemption is only the plan of redemption because God wanted it that way. It didn't have to be. He could just accept an apology without shrugging his shoulders and saying oh well because someone found a particular fruit of a particular tree to yummy to pass up (He also could have put that tree ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET but instead put it right in front of two people who did not know good and evil; then said don't eat from that tree. Not exactly a strong case for omniscience. It's like I put a cookie on the table in front of my 7-year-old and said "Don't eat that," then walked out of the room. He's gonna eat the cookie. I'm not all knowing, and I know that). So your friend, I submit, is not stubborn. Rather, he's amused at the contortions you'll twist yourself into to deny what's obviously written. There IS not idiom of permission in the Bible. Bullinger, for what he's worth, appears to be the only one who makes an issue of it. It's hardly a scholarly consensus. The existence of other figures of speech does not verify the "idiom of permission" as something the Bible employs on a regular basis. It is, however, an extraordinarily convenient tool for believers to employ whenever their holy book shows God doing what no good God would ever do, even though the book is unambiguous about it being God who did it. But that's just the old testament. Unless, of course, you're holding back tithes from the apostles in Acts, which is New Testament. (Oh, but it doesn't say God did that. It was Satan -- even though the Bible doesn't say THAT either). The Bible is filled with examples of God saying he'll do something and then saying He did it. It doesn't say he allowed it to happen or he allowed Satan to do it. It says HE did it. Now, it COULD have said he allowed Satan to do it, very easily. Look at Job. Satan did those things. It says so. Yeah, he got God's permission, but it says that, clearly. There's no ambiguity, and there's no "this is how it works normally." A figure of speech is supposed to be a statement that is true in essence though not literally true. "It's raining cats and dogs" is a figure of speech. "This car can stop on a dime" is a figure of speech. A figure of speech is not supposed to be a way for you to get the Bible to say the opposite of what it clearly says just because what it clearly says is inconvenient for your theology. God ordered the execution of a man for picking up sticks on the sabbath. He didn't give man permission to kill the offending sabbath breaker. He gave man an order -- cast those stones! God didn't allow divorce. He prescribed it. He didn't allow Satan to kill all the firstborn of Egypt. He had it done. And he DID have a choice. When my kid offends me, I have a choice how to discipline him. You have no idea how many times my discipline has stopped short of killing him because he did his chores between sunset on Friday night and Saturday night! So here's a thought. Bear with me: Maybe your friend isn't the stubborn one in this equation. Maybe he's not the one being inflexible. Maybe, just maybe, he's given this far more thought than you have.

Thanks for sharing, Becoming Me ! I love your name…it reminds me of what many of us strive for after leaving an homogenizing cult – allowing our authentic-self to disentangle us from TWI’s straitjacket...it can be a long and slow process - - it's different for everyone since we are all unique individuals. Many things you’ve mentioned in your post have resonated so much with me. One was mentioning counseling. It wasn’t until about 10 years after I left TWI that I went to a professional counselor. I unloaded a ton of regrets, frustrations, failures…well…uhm - - let’s just say it was one huge messy pile of angst at my first session. The counselor’s wise words have stuck with me through the following sessions and beyond – to this very day; he said “you’ve got to stop beating yourself up over this stuff.” I think sometimes we can be our own worst enemy. Alas, I have found the saboteur – it is me! When you mentioned baby steps it reminded of one of my fav funny movies What About Bob? , Bill Murray plays Bob who tries to follow his psychoanalyst’s (Leo played by Richard Dreyfuss) “baby steps” advice – but as the story unfolds we see Bob relates better to other folks with their own problems than Leo does using his cold clinical approach; I love towards the latter part of the film where Bob misinterprets Leo acting out a grudge against him as “death therapy”…I think Grease Spot is a pretty cool environment where you may find someone sharing about trying baby steps at something new – a new career, new hobby, a new direction in their journey through life... whatever. (here's some DVD bonus features) What About Bob? Baby Steps What About Bob? I'm sailing ...by the way, I'm not knocking the baby steps idea - I think it's smart to set small, realistic short term goals; and I'm not knocking professional counselors either - I appreciate first hand how they have really helped me...I just love the movie "What About Bob?" and wanted to bring some levity to a heavy talk...again, thanks for sharing and I look forward to your input at Grease Spot. == == == == You mentioning the pseudo-vigilance is a big deal: “Another part of growing up that still affects me is hyper-vigilance about “danger.” The idea that the devil was out to get us; and if you are “out of alignment and harmony” you’ll be outside of God’ protection;” …I’ve spent most of my adult career in security and life-safety technology – and whenever I reflect on my former TWI mindset – I’m embarrassed to admit how naïve I was to ignore the security and safety concerns / threats of the real world while having a false sense of security within my imaginary protective bubble. On your last point: “I was a true believer. I did the things you were supposed to do. I toed the line. I put my heart and soul into it. And all I got was this broken spirit. “ I can totally relate to also. Years ago I broke my left hand in a rollover accident. I am right handed – but after therapy and healing over time – my left hand is stronger than my right hand. Go figure…my point is how you’ll find your critical thinking skills become stronger as you exercise them – sort of like therapy for atrophied muscles… …and on a side note to that – not sure where you’re at on your beliefs right now – so I’m just sharing how I use what was “broken” in my faith here at Grease Spot or wherever I cross paths with a wounded soul. It’s kinda like Bill Murray’s Bob character – it’s the familiar experience of being hurt through betrayal, deception, manipulation and such that enables us to empathize with others who have gone through something similar or have felt the same emotions…I think when someone who has been in a cult talks about what it was like and how they were able to break free of that – their message…their compassion really connects with someone in need - - probably a lot more than some stuffy teaching on the false prophets and wolves of Matthew 7

Can a believer believe so big that they can believe for a rock that even they can't believe to lift?

NO. They are NOT. None of them are. Not even legitimate democracies. All government systems are nothing more than different ways to organize societies and the collective power that arises from the people therein. That said, there is wisdom in adhering to the rules and laws of society. But there can also be godly wisdom in rebelling against some in certain situations.

I love John Juedes When I was trying to figure out how to survive the cult, John Juedes was more tender and kind to me than anyone in TWI had ever been. We emailed back and forth for a good while until I was brave enough to really tell people what happened to me in TWI. He truly helped to put me back together. He was one of the first REAL ministers I have ever really met. I have the utmost repect for him. Thank you for interviewing him