Charity

I admit that one of the hardest thing for me to let go of from twi is that there is only one "truth" which meant you are right and everyone else is wrong. This is why I appreciate what you wrote above about having opinions. One definition of opinion is "a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence." The same website defines belief as "Unlike an opinion, a belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values." If belief is a personal conviction one holds about an issue, does it then become an opinion when discussing the issue with others who think differently?

It sounds like she's not burdened down with the issue of "sin" or striving to believe enough to please God. That would make a difference. I find it hard for her to be like this though if she goes to a church. Does she?

You're right - it's the first game of hide and seek ever played.

It's just that the horrendous acts of God's wrath in the O.T. and the wrath of God that Jesus spoke of in the Gospels and revealed to John in Revelation are so different from the grace and salvation from God's wrath that Paul writes about in his epistles. However, despite what Bullinger and Wierwille taught about focusing on what is written to us, it does not change the truth that in the Bible disobeying God is a very frightening thing.

Thanks for your post Rocky. I haven't considered too deeply yet what the meaning of life is if the God of the Bible does not exist. There was usually much joy in my life from knowing a loving God and Father as well as real comfort from knowing an empathetic and strengthening Christ. But things have become so complicated lately around prayer and God's past and future wrath that my spiritual life was becoming more and more confusing and oppressive. I think Nathan's post above holds some good ideas on how to rethink living life.

Thanks for your reply. I did mention some promises written to the body of Christ in 1 John 3:21-23 and 1 John 5:14-15. Unlike the gospels, the Pauline epistles are mostly about the promises given to us because of who we are and what we have in the resurrected Christ. You see mention or examples of Eph 3:20 (also included in my post) with Peter, Stephen and Paul in the book of Acts as you noted. The “power that works in us” is the condition in this verse so one has to know what this accurately means. Concerning Philippians 4:6-7, you wrote about taking things to God and then leaving them with him and that regardless of whatever does or doesn’t subsequently come to pass in this life, we have the peace of God that passes all understanding. The “regardless part” is not part of these 2 verses, but it is something that Christians seem to add to cover for when our requests are not answered. What happens after Christ returns and for all eternity are based on the scriptures, so trusting God’s word is a criterion for these to be meaningful. I started this thread as a way to work through issues to help me know whether the Bible is truly the word of God and therefore trustworthy or if it is the work of men. There is much to consider.

One more thing about Genesis 3… Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11And he said, Who told thee that thou was naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou should not eat? Did God really not know what had happened until Adam told him? Did God not know the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve? Did he not foreknow that the serpent would try to tempt Eve? According to Paul, 4 thousand years later, God knew about Christ’s redeeming blood and that we’d be chosen of him before the foundation of the world. So why was Genesis 3:10 written this way? Another thing, did God even warn Adam and Eve about Satan and how crafty, subtle and evil he was? There is no record of him doing so. So Eve is deceived by the serpent and decides to eat of the fruit giving it also to Adam who believing Eve (or for some other unstated reason), decides to eat as well. Could there have been a different outcome if Eve knew she was talking to a great deceiver? This is why I believe this record in Genesis is a story made up by man to explain why there was such evil in the world. How could a truly all-knowing and perfectly loving God have been so asleep at the wheel as well as so punitive to have let this all play out as it did? The wrath of God is something to consider as well.

Was anything written to Christ-believing people who lived decades or centuries later?

According to Genesis 1-3, God creates a paradise and many different kinds of awesome life and everything is perfect. What a great God He is. Then everything is corrupted because of one single act of two humans (one who was deceived and the other who followed suit). All mankind has now become evil and worthy of death and is therefore in need of redemption. Now there are wars, murders, rapes, natural disasters, genocides, dreadful diseases and disorders of mind and body, hatred, lusts, etc. - SO MUCH pain and suffering century after century which God knew would happen because of Adam and Eve's disobedience. Why was such a cruel and severe punishment so necessary? All of this is explained away by saying “a loving God gave Adam and Eve free will,” so everything is their fault – not God’s. I now call that statement into question because God was GOD and so much GREATER than them: - God was incapable of doing evil, but Adam and Eve were created capable of doing evil. - God had foreknowledge of all that would happen if sin entered the world, but Adam and Eve were only told of “their death.” Who was in a greater and more powerful position to have the responsibility of the whole world placed on their shoulders – God or Adam and Eve? Yet God placed it on humans. I used to think this was how highly God thought of the perfect man He created, and they just went and blew it. Now, I’m thinking they were doomed from the beginning to fail.

Prayer is more than just asking God for your needs to be met – I understand that. And I understand how leaving Christianity because one’s prayers for deliverance did not get answered can be seen as acting like a spoiled brat. Yet, if God does not do what he promises to do, then the issue becomes one of trust. Is there really a God as laid out in the Bible? Many will proclaim that their prayers were answered which is wonderful but what about the others who say their prayers were not. Why the difference if God is not a respecter of persons? All the verses below (except for one) are promises with conditions attached which are not always specific leaving the door open for loopholes and turning “shalls” into “maybes.” On the other hand, the “shalls” can mean a definite “yes” but only according to God’s hidden timetable which means we wait (and we wait and we wait). However, “shall” never means "shall not," so there is a guarantee in them. (Concerning “trust” as a condition, the law of believing was a nightmarish doctrine of vpw. So is “trust” as used in some verses below any better?) Finally, unanswered prayers for deliverance seems to always come down to two reasons: the person praying did not meet the conditions or that the deliverance will come but after Christ returns. The former leaves a Christian working to please God, and the latter only matters if there really is going to be a return of Christ. In other words, there is no proof until it actually happens. So this is where my thinking is at now and here are the verses. Unconditional promise: Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened. (Verse 11 relates this promise to receiving “good things” from God. Luke 11:13 narrows it down to receiving “the Holy Spirit.” Which is it or is it both?) 1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (The context is loving “in deed and in truth.” Is this an "all or nothing" condition?) 1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he hears us: 15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. (Does this mean we are to always know God’s will or are we to attached “not my will but yours be done” at the end of our petitions?) James 5:16 Confess your faults rs to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain… (What does “effectual fervent” mean? Do we have to be an Elijah to get answer to prayer? Does “righteous” mean one who does right or one who is righteous in Christ?) Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us (If this is referring to the spirit realm, how many different doctrines are there about how “this power works in us.” Is there an accurate one that proves to work every time?) John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (The condition is trusting – having any uncertainty is not trusting.) Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance (assurance) of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (With both verses in Hebrews, the condition is trusting – having any uncertainty is not trusting.)

Thanks for sharing the above. The quotes and your words of "Gracefully. With compassion" did not describe my life while helping to take care of my grandson and other issues that resulted because of his needs. I was regularly hurt, confused and judging myself as to why things were getting worse and harder for us to deal with at the same time I was praying for God's help. This was like receiving a double whammy. When I look at the verses on prayers or receiving God's promises, they are a mixed lot. Some have no conditions attached but most do have conditions attached. (I'll probably share more about this later.) Without the agony of wondering what more I have to do for God to answer the least of my prayers, I now can deal with reality in a simpler and calmer way. I still hurt for my grandson but my mind is clearer now and I can problem solve better now.

After leaving twi, it was necessary to unlearn the lies we were taught in order to become healthier. I think it is true for leaving Christianity as well - it happens when one sees the problems with what the Bible teaches. Is it only a matter of how one looks at things? The following is from the beginning of the video above about the slave mentality of Christianity. It shows a different way of seeing God than what I’ve believed for so long. INDIVIDUAL ASPECT - Fear of Death: God offers a bargain system, not a free gift but a trade in order to save us from eternal death (or hell) which He decided was the apt penalty for all of us because of Adam's sin. Our end of the bargain is to make Jesus Christ our lord and master. PSYCHOLOGICAL ASPECT (6:15 in the video) - 5 LINEAR CHARACTERISTICS OF SLAVE MENTALITY (lowering oneself to bring about the desires/needs of someone greater at a great expense to oneself) i. Obedience: based on being told the Master/God knows what is right; disobedience = personal harm ii. Submissiveness: lowering oneself; believing we're worthless - we who are “wretched” according to our Master/God are “saved” so we can glorify how great our Master/God is iii. Dependence: relying on our Master's/God's authority to supply our personal needs, validation, direction or sustenance which reinforces our worthlessness, wretchedness and incompetence to live our lives without Him iv. Fatalism: The Master's/God’s way is the only way; any other way is bad, therefore we resign ourselves to submission and dependence on the Master/God v. Fear of autonomy: fear of freedom, personal responsibility or unknown outcomes (e.g., Israelites wanting to return to slavery in Egypt rather than face the reality of their hardships in the wilderness) A A believing Christian will obviously not see things this way, but for one who is beginning to doubt the truth of the Bible, the above becomes eye-opening.

Hi Cman, I like many others, had to deconstruct from the wrong doctrine of twi after being involved for 11 years. Now, I'm wondering which of the following is not what we as Christians are to believe. In the Old Testament, the goodness of God towards His own people was mostly based on obedience to Him; otherwise, you see them suffer curses, deaths, killings, punishments, etc. With the gospels, you have Jesus coming again to his own people and saying "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Then, in order to save mankind from sin, God needed him to be tortured and crucified for three hours because that was how God set everything up from the beginning. The Epistles say we are saved by grace which is groovy for us considering what God did to his people under the law in the OT but not so groovy for those who may be saved during the great tribulation which God will allow to happen. Then, there's the power which we have access to during this period but only if we trust in God and even then, it seems to come down to His prerogative whether it's manifested. Finally, there is the rapture which while again groovy for us, is not so for those left behind since they shall see "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

The first thing mentioned in the "Is Christianity a Slave Mentality" video above is the fear of death. Like he shares, this is one of the last string that keeps me wanting to hang on to Christianity - is this life all we have (which Paul says we are then to be most pitied),or is there truly a promise of eternal life as explained in the Bible (especially one where my grandson will be given a healthy mind and body)? But if there is no God, then there is no promised afterlife as we have come to expect it. And if that's true, then a huge mind shift is required to see how living with this reality means we are to live our lives to the fullest while we can (within the requirements of human laws and with a care for helping our fellow man if one wishes). If based on the accepted belief that there is no God, then does valuing even more the one life we have now all that awful? And what about the pain and suffering that does happen in this one life - how are we to see it when there is no relief to look forward to in heaven? I can see why God's promises are so important but only if one trusts the words of the Bible.

Over the past six months, I have struggled quite a bit with my relationship with God for two reasons: seeing the suffering of my 8-year-old grandson with non-verbal autism beginning to have seizures again (as well as other health issues), and the doctrine of the rapture and the great tribulation. As part of this second issue, I have seen a dear brother in Christ become very focused on warning others of the terrible wrath of God that will soon be upon those who are left behind. I won't get into specifics about these two issues right now, but instead of what I've learned in the last week or so. I began watching videos on the MindShift website. They are done by a man named Brandon who was raised up in a fundamentalist religion and was very active in it for decades as an adult. He no longer believes there is a God and therefore believes that the Bible was written by men alone. He uses a lot of the Bible to show how the Christian god is not a good god. He also talks about how Christians defend these verses to show the opposite - that God is a long-suffering and merciful God. I have found that what he says makes sense. I am attaching one of his videos about how living a life as a slave to Christ is very similar to what real slaves to real masters here on earth had to suffer and endure. I would really appreciate hearing what you think about this. He covers a lot in 40 minutes so it's not necessary to listen to the whole video to bring up topics for discussion. Thanks!