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  2. Manifestation = obviousness. manifestation φανέρωσις (phanerōsis) Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular Strong's Greek 5321: A manifestation, disclosure. From phaneroo; exhibition, i.e. expression, a bestowment. Cognate: 5321 phanérōsis – a manifestation, a "coming to light." See 5319 (phaneroō). Amplified version: 7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit [the spiritual illumination and the enabling of the Holy Spirit] for the common good. 8To one is given through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] the message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] the word of knowledge and understanding according to the same Spirit; 9to another [wonder-working] faith [is given] by the same [Holy] Spirit, and to another the [extraordinary] gifts of healings by the one Spirit; 10and to another the working of [a]miracles, and to another prophecy [foretelling the future, speaking a new message from God to the people], and to another discernment of spirits [the ability to distinguish sound, godly doctrine from the deceptive doctrine of man-made religions and cults], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses. (I underlined the "familiar" bits.) Now hang on a bit. What's this about the expressing of words of Wisdom, etc? Step back a bit further. Verse 7 states these obviousnesses are "for the common good" (same in several versions). That's the common good of your friends, neighbours, colleagues, city; everyone, everywhere. It's not limited to a fellowship or church setting. So why do we suppose these manifestations operate only in private or in a TWI-setting? Take a look at other people, outside of Wayfer groupthink. You may well find that there are some people who seem extraordinarily wise, whose words offer comfort, guidance, etc - who always seem to know just the right thing to say. It's their background, training, thinking patterns, all of that - and something else. God has seeded, or salted, his people through all walks of life. Let's face it - we all need someone wise to turn to. Same with every other manifestation. Even "gifts of healings" whether or not they believe in God, Jesus or that the earth is flat. Soothing words of wisdom can operate just as well in conjunction with gifts of healings - see the rise of "talking therapies" these days, where we talk with trained counsellors, psychologists, etc or just mentors, to help us through difficult times. TWI picked on the noisy stuff because it was an attempt to distinguish themselves. They forgot what might be more significant - being wise, having vision for the future [prophecy], discernment [getting a handle on the motives of others] etc. This thread relates to TWI's newest class. Do you think they'll manage to remember that there are other people out there upon whom God's blessings fall, believers and unbelievers alike? D'ya think they'll understand that "common good" relates to everyone - and not "common with distinction" meaning only Wayfers?
  3. Read this WaPo story without charge because I have a subscription and provide the link because of it. Leaders in the Southern Baptist Convention on Sunday released a major third-party investigation that found that sex abuse survivors were often ignored, minimized and “even vilified” by top clergy in the nation’s largest Protestant denomination. The findings of nearly 300 pages include shocking new details about specific abuse cases and shine a light on how denominational leaders for decades actively resisted calls for abuse prevention and reform. Evidence in the report suggests leaders also lied to Southern Baptists over whether they could maintain a database of offenders to prevent more abuse when top leaders were secretly keeping a private list for years.
  4. I feel the same way – and there’s arguably a multifold rationale to my thought process: 1. wierwille wrongly taught each believer can operate all nine of the manifestations but that does not jive with I Corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. NKJV 2. Due to the lack of documented evidence - besides the meager anecdotal evidence offered up by some – I lean toward a cessationism theology (which is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, such as healing, tongues, and prophetic revelation, pertained to the apostolic era only, served a purpose that was unique to establishing the early church, and passed away before the canon of Scripture was closed (comp. 1 Cor. 13:8-12 with Heb. 2:3-4) …Although I am not one to assume I can squeeze God into a tight-fitting theological box…so I think these things can still happen – but in light of my #1 reason – it would be as the Spirit distributes them individually…and I should add speaking just from my own experiences I haven’t witnessed anything that would fall into the biblical definition of genuine manifestations during my 12 years of involvement with The Way International. 3. Nowhere in Scripture are there passages that suggest the need for “excellor sessions” for the utterance manifestations. “Excellor sessions” seem more likely an attempt to train people to become proficient at mimicking an “ecstatic language” – something that has been noted in various religions for a long time. It is interesting to note that in I Corinthians 14 in certain passages Paul's usage of “tongue” in the singular...several commentaries have observed that being in the singular form it’s probably referring to the gibberish of pagan ecstatic speech – since by any acceptable linguistic definition there would not be a variety of unintelligible meaningless languages. Gibberish is gibberish. 4. And furthermore, since Paul observes the obvious purpose of every language is to communicate (I Corinthians 14: 10,11) and edify some commentaries suggest Paul continues to use the singular “tongue” to speak sarcastically in verses 14 – 17 to illustrate the foolishness and pointlessness of speaking in gibberish - the speaker himself or herself could not understand it. What benefit is there to pray to God or to praise Him without understanding what is said? No one could say “amen” to such nonsense. In verse 18 of I Cor. 14, Paul returns to using the plural “tongues” to indicate the genuine gift… 5. To put the dubious practice taught in PFAL and reinforced by “excellor sessions” in modern terms it seems more like a learned behavior to me. But that’s just my opinion.
  5. Mike, this is not a "gotcha". If you have scripture to support your claim, now would be the time to post it. If you don't, then simply accept that it's not based on any scriptural evidence. Or, as my Dad used to say, "Poop or get off the potty chair.".
  6. Why do you want me to go to that trouble, of fetching all that info? Are you going to minister to someone with it? Or are you just looking for "gotcha" fodder? I think I have posted on these things in great detail in the past. LATE ADDITION: If you do a word search here do it on all the spellings of excellors, excellor's, and excellors'
  7. And you somehow know I didn't? What is the scriptural basis?
  8. Yes. I asked that question a dozen different ways in the 1970s. Why didn't you?
  9. Charles Durning John Turturro Holly Hunter Tim Blake Nelson Daniel von Barden Michael Badalucco John Goodman Stephen Root
  10. I know what that teaching is, I disagree, I don't think that is what these scriptures are saying.
  11. I don't know which sentence to pick so how about that one. Quite the art in assuming so much in every sentence. It's not like anyone ever saw the worship manifestations have any positive effect. A simple demonstration of their practicality would have inspired some to go for it. Manifestations were no different than drinking too much at a Fraternity Party to be accepted. They were damaging, yet people kept doing it.
  12. Is there scriptural basis for excellor sessions?
  13. No. I saw PLENTY of people wrestle with their fears. Maybe the first time thru the class was not enough for some. I was amazed at what people did NOT hear in their first times thru. I dealt with this a lot in excellors sessions, and in private ministering. Overcoming fears was never promised to happen in ONE taking of the class. Many people needed a little more, so I volunteered and saw the process in great detail. I think the top leaders shied away from a lot of this brute service level activity. Too bad for them; they missed out.
  14. The Green Card said the class would enable us to overcome our fears. Was this false advertising?
  15. Fear. I said so in my post above. In excellors sessions we used humor, laughter, and silliness to combat the fears people had. People can balk at certain unfamiliar sounds. God has given the utterance, but they clam up in fear,
  16. When not be clear in the class? Why clues? What's the point of a CLASS? And yes we know PFAL made VPW AF-FLUENT. *cue duck*
  17. Why would they have to "develop" fluency if God gave the utterance?
  18. I have helped many grads develop more fluency in their SIT. It is not difficult. The clues were given and distributed through the Intermediate Class excellors sessions. I saw great fluency developed when people would just relax their fears. In all my years at HQ and around VPW, I only heard him SIT once at a 10:30 meeting in the BRC. I was especially attentive to his fluency, and it was VERY fluent..... not at all like the few recorded lines in the film class. Uncle Harry and I were in the same twig in New Knoxville. He had plenty of fluency in SIT.
  19. Wait . . So the scripture came by Holy peoples of Gawd who spake . . . So it was basically like writing down Interpretation of Tongues which is Prophecy except for when it is not . . . That's why to whom is so important cause you have to remember who was present in those first century Twig Fellowships . . . It must of been confusing to hear "study my Word" when the Canon hadn't been established . . . So that's why the word hadn't been know since the first century. . . It wasn't even written yet . . . So how did they see it in the original? You have to remember that is all interprets itself in the end.
  20. To be clearer, I don't think anyone will miss out on the day of the Lord. Each person will have that day soon enough. I don't believe that this happens to everyone all at the same time, as those bible versions seem to indicate. And timing is not so important as the fact that it will happen.
  21. -The scene which introduces the main character's obsession with symmetry might also have served to draw attention and give his friend time to complete his search. -The original story was inspired by a personal experience by the writer, plus a major news story at the time. -Personally, I thought it was odd that only 1 1/2 actors prepped for their role by doing something I thought would be very obvious. -For those who know enough to wonder, the one in the movie was "the Simpion." -This remake had animations of moving landscapes. At least 1 actor experienced motion sickness during filming.
  22. I remember someone who was sorta "stuck" rhyming in her tongue. I have no idea how that one was resolved, if it ever was. As for the same phrase, that was vpw's result as well- "Lo SHAN-ta ma laka SI-to la-SHON-ta." Always that exact phrase. From a man who admitted that he supposedly faked speaking in tongues when someone genuinely tried to help him. Supposedly, he recited Scripture in Greek and they didn't recognize it. Mind you, it's likely he made up that entire story- but it shows he was WILLING to fake SIT long before he met us.
  23. For the record, technically, I'm not closed to the idea that someone, somewhere, is actually Speaking In Tongues, the real thing. I'm confident that everything I've seen in any group, ex-twi or not, all supposedly speaking in tongues, are nothing of the kind, and the real thing would appear VERY different. (Freed of the nonsense concept that they'd have a roomful of people speaking "tongues of angels", there would be actual foreign languages spoken.) Mind you, I'd be more than a little skeptical based on how completely I was snowed before. As to how "speaking in tongues" and "interpretation" and "prophecy" can be used to bind a group together, we've discussed this before. Any sociologist could certainly explain it if they'd seen the results, and it doesn't take a degree holder to do so, either. The actual act we saw/did in twi/ex-twi groups are fake- able by actors, even by acting students. Therefore, con-men can certainly fake "the worship manifestations" as we were taught them. It's also possible to set up situations where someone fakes them, is told they're doing the real thing, and the results are the person fakes them convinced they're doing the real thing. The results appear identical to what we all saw all the time. (Yes, there's an obvious reason for that.) On a practical level, it's completely possible to design a cult where people are told they will speak in tongues, and get them to do something that resembles what we did in every measurable way. (Yes, there's an obvious reason for that.) On a doctrinal level, the Bible only has ONE VERSE that's used to suggest SIT would be incomprehensible- and nowadays that gets me VERY suspicious that verse is being misused. In this case, it is. It's in a list of verses with ridiculous levels of hyperbole- speaking with tongues "of angels" is in the same category as literally moving mountains with your faith, and generosity to the point of handing over all your possessions including your body. It was never meant to be LITERAL that there were people speaking "tongues of angels." If they exist, they are not mentioned elsewhere, so they're not our concern if they DO exist. There's plenty of human languages, whether current or extinct. Mind you, I changed my position due to 2 things. Primarily, I was unable to argue against everything on this list- I was well aware the social aspects could be faked, but the supposed Biblical claims didn't hold up to scrutiny. Secondarily, when someone tried to argue FOR "speaking in tongues", they weren't able to bring any SUBSTANCE to the table. There's a saying about discussions, and HOW the person addressed the discussion said more than anything else- they neither cleared anything up, nor came in with anything I'd somehow overlooked. (If I'd overlooked something, that might have been different, so I checked.) So, they just attempted to fog each of the issues, and that, if anything, reinforced what I'd already concluded- my previous position was indefensible. A perfect example of how that unfolded was how I later mentioned I'd changed positions, and I'd held off making a final decision to see if the other arguer somehow had thought of anything I had not (and thus, had a sensible argument.) They angrily challenged me to come up with an example. They wanted me to come up with an example of something I had been unable to come up with previously. That was the level of logic I was dealing with, which made me feel better about my decision.
  24. The problem with relying SOLELY on the KJV is that the version is about 500 years old, and its wording is about 500 years old. Unless you read Shakespeare for fun and understand it without footnotes, I don't recommend trying to use it for understanding. "As that" there is the part that's easy to misunderstand, since it's not a phrase in modern usage. II Thessalonians 2:1-2 NIV 2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. II Thessalonians 2:1-2 NASB 2 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the [a]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your [b]composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a [c]message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. =================================== Those verses were addressing some people's concern that "the day of the Lord" had already passed AND THEY MISSED IT. If you read the passages in a clearer version, you will be less likely to make mistakes common to people trying to decipher the KJV and end up rendering modern Bible- as if there weren't any already commercially available. You can buy some locally, you can read some online, and there's free versions for download.
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