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  2. Not helping. Hopefully WW or Raf can answer. George
  3. Traveling salesman shifting assignments upon a whim, the agreement of a couple in a back room somewhere far away from any rational scrutiny or common knowledge or voting system like the RnR folks who were marked and avoided suggested. Most of the areas I was in had common characteristics. There were good hearted Christian souls. But pretty much it seemed like about half of the people 50% or so to me were those who had previously been through the Way Corps training, were now Inactive and unhappy. They would target active ones and look for any opportunity to complain or not work with them. Not much possible to do in those situations. That is all fallout due to shifting standards for what they called Way Corps, irrational acts by megalomaniac leaders - I mean the damn most ridiculously stupid thing was reason for many of these people to be dropped from Corps with all of the stigma and bad feelings attached. So a largely unhappy group even of the ones that still are there. And many hanging on to nostalgia for good old days. I just have to say reflecting my choice led me into the Way and God knew my heart and led me out of the Way in His time. And He sees my heart and commitment to Him not some fake damn cult.
  4. Yes probably. At an rate why do I care how many followers the Way has? I don’t hopefully God has a warning sign for them. I think those numbers would not be even in the top 1000 churches in the USA little less worldwide which they claim to be. Carry on tiny dancers.
  5. Today
  6. The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice. I'm pretty sure that no matter what version, when written, what history: all will point to honouring God, the creator and sustainer of the universe; to Jesus Christ his son, who is the way, the truth and the life; and to the life we are supposed to lead - one of respect (awe) for God and respect towards our fellow human beings (if not to mention the whole planet and all there is in it. Jesus's summation of "Love God and love your fellow man" isn't likely to have changed much since it was first said 2000 years ago, and here translated a mere 500 years ago: [37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. ... [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. or as NIV, much more recent, puts it this way: Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” But even then, some got nitpicky - even with Jesus ("Oh, I don't understand the words - who's my neighbour? Let's do some research!") And this, as a way of living life (from, for a change, the Berean study Bible - many other versions available). In some versions the words are slightly different due to inexact translations expressing the thoughts behind the words, but the thoughts themselves are unchanged. Gal 5:19-22. 19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. No. No variant reading of the above affects any material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice.
  7. They did marry. They have since divorced. They had two daughters. Sandy was 6th corps. She's on FB. Sorry, I only first saw your post now.
  8. With study (and I believe you study stuff that will eventually lead you to some understanding), I believe it's available in a more literal sense to understand... but it's NOT reasoning that's behind it at all. It's other, very human, tendencies. Like tribalism and deep emotionalism. But very much is not any kind of logic or reasoning. I read people saying on social media that they can't understand the logic/reasoning behind certain political beliefs that are causing polarization and division all over the world these days. That's what spurred me to ask myself and in some of the experts' books that I've read similar questions. As a figure of speech however, I believe your question/statement is very TRUE and rational.
  9. Some great points on biblical criticism, Chockfull ! and again what comes to mind in the context of this thread is the sloppy and superficial pretense of wierwille’s concern for supposedly getting back to “the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke”. On another thread - Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed? - I quoted from the PFAL book, page 128 in chapter 11, “The Translations of the Word of God”, wierwille states: “Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all verses.” Okay – just stop and think about that for a minute…now I ask you – how does comparing one word with another, one verse with another and studying the context of all verses in any translation or version of the Bible get you back to “the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke” ? What wierwille is describing is how second-hand information is compiled. It is just information received from others, rather than personally experienced or witnessed. wierwille is NOT looking at any actual ancient manuscript – but rather he’s looking at a TRANSLATION or VERSION of ancient manuscripts – that could be The King James Version, The New American Standard Bible, The New International Version, etc… So big deal – anyone can do that! Matter of fact, I have over 60 Bibles – actual printed Bibles on several shelves – various translations, study Bibles, critical Greek texts, The Hebrew Bible - the Tanakh, interlinears of Old & New Test., besides digital Bibles (ebooks) – I’m a little bit of a bookworm and study-bug…besides stuff you can find online – like John 1 ESV - go ahead click on that link, and then look to the right of where it has “John 1” – you’ll see “English Standard Version (ESV)” in a pulldown box…you can use that to change to other versions pretty cool huh…here’s another cool one John 1:1 - go ahead and click on that one – you’ll see that one verse in several different versions, great site for research tools too…So, let’s be honest about this - wierwille was NOT examining or analyzing the actual texts himself....something fishy about that - don't you think ? On that Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed? thread I asked a certain PFAL-fan “specifically what errors are there in the KJV - or in other translations, for that matter - that need to be addressed because it is mission critical to the church and/or one’s Christian faith? Or to put it another way - what errors does your manifesto confront and resolve to make your unique creed a better version of Christianity?” I never did get a straight answer. In that same post I also gave a reference to support my argument for the accuracy…authenticity…honesty of the ancient documents that still exist – I said “ I think we can shorten the discussion by just getting right to the heart of the matter; two notable scholars F.F. Bruce and Sir Frederic Kenyon – both with expertise in the historical reliability of the New Testament have stated that very little has been lost as to what was originally written in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? By F.F.Bruce ... it says on pages 14 and 15: “The study of the kind of attestation found in MSS and quotations in later writers is connected with the approach known as Textual Criticism. This is a most important and fascinating branch of study, its object being to determine as exactly as possible from the available evidence the original words of the documents in question. It is easily proved by experiment that it is difficult to copy out a passage of any considerable length without making one or two slips at least. When we have documents like our New Testament writings copied and recopied thousands of times, the scope for copyists’ errors is so enormously increased that it is surprising there are no more than there actually are. Fortunately, if the great number of MSS increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small. The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice. To sum up, we may quote the verdict of the late Sir Frederic Kenyon, a scholar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none: ‘The Interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.’ “ I remember how wierwille spoke with such disdain for the higher criticism of ancient texts in PFAL..He didn’t know what he was talking about. Here’s one website that might explain the various types of textual criticism – and how it’s a good thing: “The Academic Study of the Bible and its Textual Content. In the academic discipline of biblical criticism the word "criticism" is not to be taken in the negative sense of attempting to denigrate the Bible. Technically, biblical criticism simply refers to the scholarly approach of studying, evaluating and critically assessing the Bible as literature in order to better understand its origins and the original intentions of its authors. It is the task of biblical criticism to collect and study various writings in which a text has been preserved, determine the changes that have occurred in the wording and arrangement of the text, assess the significance of such changes, and restore, if possible, the original wording, teachings or form of the text.” From : The Nazarene Way - biblical criticism See also Wikipedia – Biblical manuscripts Preservation of the Bible Faith Facts.org – manuscript evidence What a scam wierwille concocted – and executed through PFAL. Convince the young and naïve there are no original manuscripts…make like he knows better than Bible scholars and qualified translators who actually understand the biblical languages and study the existing manuscripts…but somehow wierwille can figure out what God originally said via the authors - by using nothing more than the King James Version…that is absolutely mind-blowing. more like mind-numbing. For a guy that went on and on about "the accuracy and integrity of the Word of God is always at stake"– he sure showed little concern for honesty or for the actual data in the existing manuscripts. Makes me wonder what his definition is of “The Word of God” yeah - time and time again his sloppy research and inept analysis was on full display – and there’s some real damning evidence in Undertow – if you haven’t read it yet – well…maybe it’s time you should. That’s all for now, folks
  10. Great recommendation, Chockfull ! And yes, her book is a great exposé on some of the atrocious and unconscionable ways in which wierwille coerced the research department to distort the translation of a Greek word so it would agree with wierwille’s theology…The first time I read that in Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International I was shell-shocked ! …I mean this was the same guy who in PFAL would make such a big deal about “The Word means what it says and says what it means” – and all that drama of his in session 6 (I think) – the one where he gets into the fall of mankind in Genesis 3 – and the road down with Eve because wierwille emphasized if you CHANGE - - ADD - - DELETE even JUST ONE LITTLE WORD – “then you no longer have God’s Word”…but I guess it’s okay if wierwille does it, huh …I’ll say one good thing about wierwille, though. What an actor! He sure had me fooled. But you know, even with books like Undertow revealing such dark and unscrupulous traits of wierwille – it still blows my mind when I come across someone who refuses to believe the truth…I’m just stunned when I can’t understand the reasoning behind someone’s adamancy. On March 27th, 2018 I asked a certain Grease Spotter if he had a chance to read Penworks’ book…and just 23 minutes later he said this: “I have it and am slowly reading it. My first objection, though, is how she objected to the idea that "the Bible interprets itself." I find that objection very dim witted, even when pumped up with detail like with the posters that attacked it 15 years ago here. It slowed down my reading, but I still intend to finish it. That interpretation issue lowered my expectations and the book's priority in my schedule. In a nutshell: Imagine how quirky it is for God to issue His Word to communicate to us, but then He FAILS to put cues, keys, and signposts in there to guide sincere seekers. That sounds like a bad way to get a message out. It's like Him saying "I want you to know something but I will not help you understand it." The phrase "The Bible interprets itself" is an extreme abbreviation of a complex idea. She did not do that justice IMO. The criticism this idea got here 15 years ago I thought was similarly lacking. My impression was that she was leading uninformed readers into thinking God is supposed to be mysterious, an old Catholic idea. Maybe her book will get better later. If you can recommend a spot to skip ahead to I would appreciate seeing what you feel is an section important to me.” You can read their post as well as my response to what he said by this link > Plagiarism on the road to success – T-Bone’s post on Jan 7th, 2022 …alright - so my response was some 1382 days later – but time does not matter when you have a time machine…(well, I don’t have a time machine perse – but I did use an online calendar calculator to figure out how many days between two dates ). as you can imagine I was bowled over by his dismissive tone and absurd arguments…in a last-ditch attempt to get through to another human being lost in the awesome sauce of a cult-leader, I recommended another book Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape by Kristen Skedgell and noting his preference for something less cerebral and that cuts to the chase – I recommended he skip ahead to pages 117 to 120 of her book – where Kristen relates an incident of wierwille sexually molesting her in the Coachman Suite at the Rome City campus – and afterwards wierwille says “It’s the lockbox, honey. You have to keep this in the lockbox of your soul. Many of God’s people wouldn’t understand what we’ve just done.” …no kidding – I certainly don’t understand how a supposed minister…president and founder of a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry could do something like that to a Christian woman in his own congregation. that's all for now, folks
  11. No real hits then, I'll just reveal this. This was Ben Stiller's 2004 comedy "Along Came Polly" which was after Zoolander but before Starsky and Hutch. It has some funny scenes but it was no Meet the Parents. It did have a decent cast as well. If someone else would like to take this they're welcome to it. I'll go if no one picks it up.
  12. Gee but it's great to be back home, Home is where I want to be. I've been on the road so long my friend, And if you came along I know you couldn't disagree. It's the same old story Everywhere I go, I get slandered, Libeled, I hear words I never heard In the Bible. Deputy Sheriff said to me "Tell me what you come here for, boy You better get your bags and flee You're in trouble, boy And now you're heading into more" It's the same old story Everywhere I go
  13. Okay. Same song different line. " "Saving up your money for a rainy day, giving all your clothes to charity"
  14. Yesterday
  15. And....it was worse than THAT. Many of us corps were assigned every 3 or 4 years to move to another state. From our meager bank accounts, we paid for the U-hauls, the upfront deposits, moving expenses and any incurred storage fees. Upon arrival, we found grads who were hurt and withdrawn as a result of bullying by the departing corps "leader." So, we rolled up our sleeves and toiled to regain their trust, respect and commitment to standards of moral and spiritual integrity. These gains were achieved by perseverance. Acquiring suitable secular employment was no easy task in a new state. Oftentimes, we didn't have references or recommendations to ease the transition. Needing to "hit the ground running," we had little time to find good secular employment so we'd settle for less....with the prospect of more. Is there any wonder why many corps moved in the circles of self-employment.....painting, landscaping, roofing, window cleaning, commissioned salesperson, etc..... when wierwille demanded ALL CORPS attend Corps Week and ROA each year? These directives exponentially burdened the corps. With each passing year, the central mandates and burdens from hq mounted. Add babies, toddlers and bills to pay....Oh, My! It was not just the secular job, but all the responsibilities that we were expected to juggle in the circus act. Witnessing. Teaching. Running Classes. Paperwork. How could the trunk office staff be SO OBTUSE to this groundswell of abuse leveled at the field corps? No Region, Trunk or Corps Coordinator had the gonads to tell wierwille (or martindale) that field corps could not keep pace with his narcissistic demands. Yeah....those jackasses that strut the halls of the OSC Building are the administrative pencil-pushers and looters of the productive. While many of us went into worn-torn states, toiled 70-80 hour weeks and saw God's grace and power in action......the directors, with their greedy-beady eyes, stashed more cash into twi-coffers. Robbing the areas of their strength and ability to grow and prosper....rather than keeping 85% in the state to use for operating expenses, room, building, etc. [agreement that Jimmy Doop outlined with wierwille]. This centralized funneling of abundant sharing to headquarters has been plundering states and areas since its devious inception. If you ever want to grasp the magnitude of how destructive these cult mandates were to the corps, just look at the massive exodus of field branch, area and limb coordinators. THOSE are the men and women who toiled in the trenches to help others until they could no longer withstand the financial burdens, the plundering from hq in God's name, the bullying and spiritual abuse. Not the staffers at hq. Not the advanced class grads ensconced in good-paying secular employment. The field corps. That's why ruthless directors at HQ are clamoring to have these seasoned field leaders return .
  16. And now, Ted Philips will lead the choir in "One Man Awake Awakens Another". Please Nod in approval.
  17. There's my second wave of PFAL. Goodbye PFAL. Goodbye imitation replacement PFAL. Goodbye imitation replacement cult leaders. That is the only wave a rational person is going to make
  18. It was worse than that. We worked secular jobs that we couldn't focus on to earn money to pay for rent for a large enough home to hold church meetings in. Then on top of that we sent in tithes and offerings from those earnings. All so we could have the privilege to work a fulltime non paid job doing all the leg work so jackasses in high towers can act important and make policy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why 95% of their leadership training graduates have fled for more rational endeavors.
  19. Maybe I’m old school…and I mean real old school…that’s what I was talking about in an earlier post – what were they preaching about in the first century…going by what I read in the book of Acts, it seems to be just the gospel - - the basic tenets of Christianity was the essence of their preaching – Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah, died for our sins/fulfilled all the requirements of the law for our justification, was raised from the dead, etc.. I don’t see any of them presenting the gospel as a cure-all for every problem or as the key to health and wealth – as PFAL and other prosperity preachers do. Like I said before if all that Christianity offered was Jesus Christ, I wonder how many PFAL-fans would be interested. Why does PFAL use the trappings of Christianity like bait to lure folks in? In to what? Increased prosperity? More harmony in the home? Make life meaningful? Enable you to separate truth from error? nope !!!! suckers fork over their MONEY for those promises/claims/benefits of PFAL – or rather the CHANCE TO SIT IN A CHAIR FOR HOURS AND LISTEN TO wierwille hawking those promises/claims/benefits of PFAL and HOW to receive them – and if the local TWI-leadership are good facilitators for an exploitative organization like TWI, I bet they can string some folks along for at least 4 or 5 years before they get frustrated and tired of the organization mooching off them. after 12 years of TWI mooching off me - do you know what I told them? That's all folks
  20. "Standing in the dock of Southampton, tryin' to get to Holland or France" Is it possible that what you thought that you heard [like myself] instead of Southampton was Japan? I'll wait for one day or for a response from someone before I add the next line. It's sort of like "Hello Darkness my old friend" at least to me, it has a start to the song that you just automatically know what it is. Again, at least to me it does.
  21. More or less, yes. And that would be.... Michelle Lee Kevin Hart Hank Azaria Alec Baldwin Philip Seymour Hoffman Debra Messing Ben Stiller Bryan Brown Jennifer Aniston
  22. I miss Steve's thoughtful posts, but as is common here, we can still debate the issue even though the original poster is long gone. And what you say, T-Bone, is worthwhile and very interesting. Just don't expect Steve to respond!
  23. increases prosperity All about context, isn't it. And knowing what the words meant at the time. "Prosper" doesn't mean "get a load of money." It means more, THRIVE. To do well for oneself as a whole. 3 John 1:2 Parallel: Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. (biblehub.com) may prosper εὐοδοῦσθαι (euodousthai) Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive Strong's Greek 2137: From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road ... You could say, on the road. Or you could say, "on the way." Who, or what, is the way? Well, don't you know Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life? The one who embodies God's abundance in all things? The epitome and example of the One God who prepared a handbook of what to do (and not do) in order to thrive? To do well in society, and to be in good standing with not only God but with one's fellow human beings? Now read that Book again. How much does it talk about the pursuit of money? And how much, in contrast, of the pursuit of a righteous and well-lived life? Think again of how many examples there are of those who are, or want to be, rich, and the downfall of those folks. Again, in contrast, how many of those who live a righteous and well-lived life succeed financially as a by-product of that life? Some, certainly; but many who live a righteous and well-lived life don't seem to do well financially (Paul and all the apostles, for just a few) - yet they deem their lives immensely rich in the Lord. For goodness sake. Get rid of this damned "health and wealth" heresy. Develop health and godliness. Then, maybe, the wealth will come. Or not. THRIVE, people. THRIVE. 1 Timothy 6:9-11, 6 9 But they that will be rich [and chase prosperity doctrines] fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows [the exact opposite of thriving]. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after [get on the road, the way of holiness] righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 6 But godliness with contentment [God's idea of prosperity] is great gain.
  24. real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on But later, in PFAL, he says: "The Word of God is true whether or not you see it come to pass" or some such. Was that in context of prophets of old looking centuries into the future for the coming of the Saviour, the Promised Seed, the Lamb of God? We know that many of those OT prophets thought they were forsaken by God, at times. They despaired of their own lives. They must have thought God was backing off from his promises. And yet - God saw them through and continued to guide them - and give them prophecies that in no way would they ever see. With God, it's not necessarily instant gratification, which is what it sounds like Weirwille wanted (at least, instant as in the next very few years). Sometimes we only see the blessings of God well in hindsight.
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