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The foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rains came down and the floods came up... Glad they were nice to you. They are a poorly researched, mean spirited cult who worshipped a man and paid the price. They turned a blind eye to assaults of all kinds, theft, adultery, abuse of children and they separated families. This went on for decades, heck half a century plus. But I am glad they were nice to you.

Glad you had a good experience Joyful. For many of us here, it would take a lot more than people being friendly and joyful to overcome the darkness the organization embraced for many years. If you go to ROA 2025, let us know what you think.

No, thanks.

I wish you could see it in the aboriginal. It's a dandy!

The are NO SUCH THING as devil spirits. You learned about them while in twi and this explains why you thought of one when LCM looked at you with all the pride and evil that were behind those eyes of his. Being involved with the other ministries you've mentioned only cemented your belief in demons because they are steeped in teaching about them and falsely claiming to rebuke them. Christianity is a fear-based doctrine that ministries/religions feed off of and become rich from because of the hold this doctrine has on keeping people in line. If you want to be free of having to cope with such a mythical being as an evil spirit, start deconstructing from what the bible teaches about them. Begin with the whole concept of the fall of Lucifer and then go straight to the most inane story of the serpent with Adam and Eve in the garden whereby all mankind supposedly inherited an evil and sinful nature and Satan became the god of this world. I sincerely hope you do.

No one is being combative with you. You asked questions and answers were provided. You've accused people, at least implicitly, of crying and not moving on. I tried to help you understand that your dismissiveness is not merely a childish cop out, it's a form of gaslighting. Perhaps my showing you this caused you discomfort, causing you to falsely accuse me of trying to start a forbidden topic while blaming you for it. After admittIng the possibility of my own failure at communicating, I offered a different illustration. Now you 're gaslighting again accusing people of being combative. This is how you react when you are challenged and corrected? It's a discussion. You aren't the only one allowed to take a passionate position for or against an idea.

It's too early for me to share the personal and painful details of my life. I can tell you that with the support of God , my family, a psychiatrist, and a psychologist, I've been able to move forward. Although I don't resent TWI, I wouldn't recommend anyone attend TWI unless it's ONLY to receive information about Romans 10:9 and then leave in peace. Where do I start? Lies about the ministry's origin, lies about the content they teach, plagiarism, abuse. Leaders believe they are chosen by God because of VPW's misuse of Romans 13, and those leaders believe that since they are called by God, they can do whatever they please. If you are with the ministry, they will be with you; if you walk away from the ministry, all those friends.. will stop talking to you. They use people, they don't love them. They "research" the WORD OF God only to the extent that it doesn't contradict VPW. (CULT-RED FLAG) They have abused thousands of people around the world, and now that Martindale and Rivenbark are gone... they go around telling people to "forgive" and move forward with the "Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation." It's not an honest organization that publicly and openly acknowledges mistakes; they only do so privately (at some point the will do) TIME TO COME HOME uhh? They don't teach people not to harm; They don't teach people not to harm; they demand that victims forgive abusers, and they keep the abusers in power. If you want details, send me a PM. God Bless U, PD: Vern seems like a good man, with good intentions. But he doesn't have the strength to weed out TWI's sectarian practices. (I met him 3 times)

“The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word.” -vpw Nothing. But. The Word. NOTHING. So, what is the Word? It’s whatever victor paul wierwille says it is. I was “taught” victor did all the “research” so I wouldn’t have to - oh, how he toiled 18hrs/day for years. Such selfless sacrifice on his part, I was “taught.” I should be so grateful. Oldies is right. It’s like any other religion. (TWI is indeed religion, no matter what they claim.) They are dogmatic, yet call themselves a “research ministry.” This is one of many contradictions illustrating their mathematic inexactness and scientific imprecision. No doubt they are nice. Super nice, I bet. Friendly, I’m sure. Be friends. Go to their church (yes, it’s a church), fellowship with them. Whatever. If anyone in TWI came on this board wanting to talk, I suspect they would be welcome. Wierwille apologists have always been welcome and free to post inexhaustible platitudes. Some here might have questions for them. I know I do.

Oops! This is the first thing that will get you in hot water. Make that boiling water. The Word takes precedence over everything... not God, not Christ, not family, not your friends. "You have no friends when it comes to The Word." (VPW). They don't come right out and say it, but, in essence, they worship The Word. "You have to put The Word above everything else." "Having done all, you just stand on The Word and don't let anyone budge you." (VPW). Oh, I could go on and on about how they exalt The Word (at, least, their interpretation of it) above all else, but I probably shouldn't, I have to go shopping for dental floss today..

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with trauma, PTSD or the sting of being ripped off. I was about to agree with you until you leaned on the cult trope of "crying about decades old offenses". These offenses include rape, sir. They include taking my teenage friends for abortions financed by a handful of money dipped from a free bucket of cash called "tithes". Perhaps giving your entire childhood to a movement that turned out to be a fraud run by grifters and perverts, stings a little. "Crying" isn.t weakness. It is a basic human emotions. If you don't cry while you're recovering from a literal attack on everything you are and everything you have, then you're the one with the problem. And by the way, I don't see anyone "crying" in the replies to your post. I see people who learned the hard way and are trying to warn you that these offenses, not all of which are "decades" old, hurt people. People still haven't recovered. Some people died, MAN. Do you have any idea the number of people who have died as a direct result of trauma from this cult? I have friends who died in accidents and were blamed for not being holy enough. It's gross. There is also no rule that says if you're "crying" about the way's literal crimes, that means that we aren't walking with Jesus. That is a fallacy. Both things can be true. You can walk with Jesus and be wise to The Way's bullcrap. And when we meet a person who says they went to HQ and everyone was so nice, we want you to know that trusting in this group will deceive you and you might not even know it's happening. If you want to stick your hand on the burner to see if fire is really hot, go ahead. You've been warned. But don't pretend that we are all crying. We were trying to warn you.

I wonder if they still throw darts at a map to make assignments. They're gonna need a pretty big map, I suppose.

Hmmmm. You might be on to something.

Don't mind me, I'm a cynical old fart. Part of this reminds me of my own early experiences, all those years ago. Everyone seemed so happy, joyful, "We sure do love you" and all that jazz. Different from mainstream churches. Love bombing at its best. Somehow, I don't see it ending well. Your mileage may vary.

I don't know anything about narcissistic children, but I know something about the full blown disorder (NPD) in adults. Adults that develop this disorder usually suffered trauma/abuse as children. This abuse is usually by a parent who is an NPD/sociopath themself. Often the abuse is severe neglect or abandonment. It can even be overvaluing the child. (This may seem counterintuitive, but it's the academic term for "spoiled rotten.") The NPD seeks to destroy that which they did not experience. A form of revenge? Envy? I don't know why exactly, but narcissists are attracted to good people who are strong, honest, kind, generous, empathetic, loved and authentic. They didn't have any of that as children. NPDs are incapable of honestly expressing and living those qualities. Others who exemplify and embody those qualities are targeted. And they are then systematically destroyed. Self esteem isn't the primary reason. Empathy is a significant factor.

Wierwille took all these definitions, line by line and word for word, from another source. (Leonard, perhaps?) If you try to put this stuff into practice, one of three things is going to happen. One: You'll delude yourself into believing they actually work. Two: You'll feel ashamed and embarrassed you're the only one who doesn't quite "get it". Three: You'll come to the conclusion it was all a bunch of nonsense all along.

There was a little book sold in the bookstore called Christian Etiquette by Dorothy Owens. It was probably about 50 pages or so. It had a lot of advice on things like how to set a table, what fork to use, proper dinner conversation, etc. Most of the trivial details have become antiquated in today's society. The overall concept it stressed, though, remains true. Our "etiquette" should be concerned with making people feel at ease and should never create an atmosphere of stress. I would recommend the book and reiterate it should be used with that thought in mind.

I remember, back in the day, there was a twig leaders' syllabus that outlined acceptable behavior at large events, such as limb meetings, branch meetings and so forth. One of the admonitions listed was to "refrain from picking your own seat." My question is this: Are there currently any circumstances under which it's acceptable to pick your seat? Whose seat should you pick instead? (Yes, thank you, I've been told I'm a twisted individual.)

Freedom, a new life, a new perspective about God and the Bible An opportunity to love all people, to serve from something as basic as a warm greeting in the morning to saying thank you and please, not being a false servant in a group only to become a leader. A wonderful chance to get closer to my family, that family from which I distanced myself because they did not participate in the ministry.

It's a bit lengthy but well worth the time spent.

Kinda, but not really. You can watch the whole thing at Internet Archive. Advanced Class transcripts can also be found there.

Raf can answer for himself, obviously, but I read his post as just showing you around - what's available, how to get it, and what to do with it once you've got it. Different forums for different topics. Discuss whatever you want. Only politics is out of bounds. Avoid politics and you're good.

I was never personally involved with IHOPKC. I learned of Bickle when a couple of his books were part of a Vineyard church library I was overseeing. If you type "bickle" in the search box above, you will see my posts about them. If you want to follow up on any of them, you can do it through those threads.

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to (softly) challenge them on belief(s) you hold that challenges their narrative. LOL...

This has been my experience as well, the last few years attending mass. No legalism. No compulsion. Haven't heard a peep about "tithing", "abundant sharing".... although it's always "available" when folks come around. Nobody watches you to see if you're giving. Nobody cares.

Nice words Joyful Sound :)...Me and my family prospered after LEAVING TWI...I put it down to seed sown years previously. We still hold onto much of the 'Word' and occasionally listen to some of LCM's latest teachings (have learnt even more, newer stuff from that) but do not fellowship with any particular church as almost always within the first 5 minutes they're preaching trinity, or the dead are alive or some such diatribe...Psalm 119:104 all day...!!

If you're so motivated, please send $20 via the donate button. If you're not, no one is going to bust any part of you over it. But, yes, it costs money, and donations are cheerfully accepted and rarely solicited. BTW, I've been to groups where I was never pushed for donations. Of all things, I was involved for a time with a Catholic church group that never hit me up for donations....although we once did a project to feed homeless, and we did it out-of-pocket. Nobody asked me to, but I opened my pocket.... and in that instance, it actually made a big difference.

In my opinion, The Way is not a reformation of the church, first century or otherwise. It's the remnants of a devious MLM scam, built on lies and plagiarism. I'm not bitter, just stating the factual reality. Not only is the vast majority of the material content plagiarized, it's filled with inaccurate assertions, such as "the four crucified", the so-called "law of believing", roosters that crowed differently 2,000 years ago, special bar mitzvas for illegitimate boys, inerrancy of scripture, bogus tithing requirements and on and on and on. The Way is and was a lot of things. A reformation of the church is not one of them.

I think we may be able to discuss him and his message if we keep it about biblical matters and not political. Biblical would be 'old covenant' vs. 'new covenant'. etc. etc. Admittedly, Baldwin does talk politics a lot during his sermons.. so it will have to be the moderator call to allow it or not. Whatever Raf decides is ok with me. Thx.

I do. And my rebound into Catholicism helps me to examine and critique my steps all the more.

"If we're going to just disavow the word isn't there some nice satanist forum out there!?" I've encountered lots of groups over the years, and twi was only one of them that said "You can agree with us or you can disagree with GOD ALMIGHTY because we're 100% in accordance with him, and leaving us means leaving GOD ALMIGHTY." I wasn't sure if that's what you meant, but it certainly could be taken that way, and it sounded like that to me. Of course, you might have meant something completely completely different, in which case, a little clarification would be appreciated (by me if by no one else.)

Welcome. Lulu. You may find that there's different types of people here. Some are no longer Christian- partly because twi really made a bad case for Christianity. Some of us are still Christian, and even still believe the Bible's really important (Hi, that includes me!). Some people are Christians with varying beliefs- either far from what twi taught, or pretty close to what twi taught, all depending on our journeys. None of those positions is required to post here. You're welcome either way, and posting friendly is appreciated. Goodness, we've had so many discussions about how foolish, unbiblical and nonsensical the no-debt policy was. Even vpw's uncle Harry claimed you should never go into debt EXCEPT FOR A HOUSE OR A CAR.

Welcome, Lulu. Whatever happened to you, we probably understand. Yah. LCM's screaming sessions at "Corps Nights." The foulness of his mouth. The hatred that was in his words. The wanton slander of those he didn't like, or who had offended him in some way. And he was "a man of God" ?????????????

Hi Lulu welcome to the Spot. Am curious.... Were you and your husband threatened to be terminated from the Corps if you didn't sell the house?

Hi JoyfulSoul! Thx for posting your recent experience and I look forward to your ROA '25 visit if you go. I have no idea how and what TWI does at present but always like to give a listen. Regarding your comment on Zionism etc... I'm with you. You may already know that Pastor Chuck Baldwin of Montana is probably one of the finest teachers on this topic and he's on YouTube. Looking forward to your future participation here...

What's that quote from Plato...? Only those who do not seek power are qualified to hold it. https://www.azquotes.com/quote/912336

Wierwille, Martindale, Bickle, and… Kat Kerr. That’s a hand never tired of the glove.

I got very caught up with the Bickle sexual abuse scandal and the IHOPKC coverup and how similar it was to weirwille's and twi's. What did you know about the latter and what is twi saying about it now? There's no way I respect twi today for their lies and coverup for this man. Do they still call him "the man of God for our day and time" or just their "father in the word?"

Good for you.Thanks to this ole sight and lots of great people,I feel it would be a step backard into their religion.

Very funny, Waysider. No Kool-Aid here. Lots of red wine, though.

The more I look into things and consider them, the more convinced I become that vpw faked ALL the "manifestations", from start to finish. How he could fake the "utterance" manifestations, we've discussed before. Anyone could make sounds, anyone could claim they're reciting a message from God. Prime the pump first by instructing the gullible public how the things are SUPPOSED to look and sound- even if the results are nothing at all like the real thing- and you're golden. Your only danger is someone catching on- especially if they encounter the real thing or otherwise realize yours don't resemble what the real thing is supposed to look like. It also explains why vpw had an explanation as to why there were 2 completely different types of prophecy, one of which had nothing to do with prophesying. So, teach people to make sounds, teach people to compose a "message from God Almighty", and keep expectations high, and you'll convince them that the sounds and the "messages" both came from God Almighty and not their expectations. This is how it COULD be done. (Start another thread if you want to discuss this further.) How to fake the "information" manifestations is a bit trickier, but it's do-able. Don't overplay your hand, keep it low-key or people will catch on. Periodically pretend that you're receiving Divine Revelation at that moment. Reveal something people didn't know you knew. vpw was fond of listening to the John Birch Society's tinfoil hat conspiracies, then coming forth in private with "revelation" about conspiracies in the US. That's how twi got into thinking 1976 was going to be the end of the US. Did it stop with vpw's death? No- and if you were listening to twi as Y2K approached, you'd know that. That was ANOTHER time the world "ended." Although both times, the world was saved because people were in twi praying, and disaster was averted. (Some people really bought that. Both times. Some of the same people bought that both times. A few people still buy that.) But it's harder to fake Divine Revelation when you don't have enough really good information to run with. So, you make up for it by having accounts of you getting revelation be either general ("he gets revelation") or second-hand with people inventing instances they "saw". You can also add a few "a few years ago, this happened but there are no witnesses" stories. We saw that with vpw's visit to India, where his account was full of miracles, and people loved him- but he never visited nor spoke to them again afterwards, not one word. Other people's accounts of the same trip (like Mrs W) skip virtually all the miracles and all the adoration, and are vague when they're not skipped entirely. So, we got stories like "vpw walked around a racetrack and got revelation showing people's hearts as white or black." As for the "impartation/power" manifestations, those are harder still to fake. vpw had stories circulating about him doing things from people who supposedly were there. When it was time for actual results, vpw fell short. Either he had other people minister healing and so on, or when something went wrong, he screamed at someone for failing to predict problems and so on. There are no accounts of "the tent top was going to collapse from flooding, so he prayed, and all that water just vanished"- instead, someone cut a hole and he blamed people. There's no accounts of "we all got together, the electricity went out, we heard him praying faintly, then suddenly the generators came back to life and there was much rejoicing." Instead, we had him admit he was still standing there. For someone who allegedly gets all sorts of prayers answered in miracles, why didn't he even ASK for one then? The most sensible answer- he knew it was pointless, he knew he wouldn't get answered. Oh, the further away the eyewitnesses were, the more miraculous things happened around him- miraculous healings in India, miraculous snowstorms kept happening to him in the US, and so on. As to the second of those, someone checked at the time, and found there was NO snowstorm at the time- he was caught lying. As to the first of those, the reaction was fascinating. Someone checked afterwards, and there was no snow. They went up to vpw, and said so. This was a man who insisted that he was snowed in, in a city. ALL traffic was STOPPED. NO trains. NO planes. NO buses. Sounds like a blizzard. I've lived through those. (For the record, in NYC, the subways usually can be kept running, even in a blizzard, and I used the subway in any blizzard or snow storm that stopped the buses.) He said this over and over. When someone came up and said there was no snow at all- not even one flake, what is the obvious response? If someone claimed there was no snow in the last blizzard I trudged through, I would be rather emphatic. Check again! I spent most of an hour either standing or trudging, and did a lot of cardio just getting to and from the subway. To say nothing of the 10 hours that followed, all of which were affected by the heavy snow. I would be clear they either were checking the wrong date, or the wrong city. IF vpw had lived through one, his response should have been similar. (It would be like someone trying to tell me the Twin Towers never fell.) What was his reaction? Nothing of the kind! Immediately, he CHANGED HIS STORY. He claimed that there must not have been any actual snow at all, but instead when he tried to arrange passage, he spoke on the phone, repeatedly, to angels who lied to him each time. (So, you can believe angels lied, or you can believe wierwille lied. According to vpw, ALL men are liars.) When it comes to teaching on the other 6, I think that vpw paid close attention to what other people said, and did his best to memorize them and regurgitate them at will. So, he could SOUND like he knew the subject, but that was only because he was RECITING what he memorized. His understanding was about as deep as that of a person who reads a wikipedia page aloud and people think he's an expert on that subject. His knowledge was spotty and intermittent. His definitions changed from Leonard's definitions. Those changes never made anything clearer, they just added syllables and ten-dollar words. That's not the actions of a man trying to make knowledge clearer- those are the actions of a man hiding that he doesn't know what he's talking about! Geer later came along and changed some definitions. In each case, each attempt at least TRIED to make things clearer. That was a man TRYING to make things easier to be understood. (Whether or not his conclusions were correct, I would not fault his intention.) IMHO, in some of the changes, he was successful, and in some, he was not because he let his interpretation guide things. Interestingly enough, in the case of at least one change, he fixed something that I thought was a rather basic problem with the definition. I went back later. That was part of Leonard's definition. Instead of fixing an elementary problem with it, vpw added lots of SAT vocabulary words to it, then taught it. I was a student who hadn't studied that subject under ANY of them, and I realized the definition had a problem- and what it was. vpw TAUGHT the thing for YEARS and never identified it. Why? He was reciting things, and only "understood" them in a rote way. If were forced to explain them using completely different words, he would have been unable. So, if you find vpw's approach is too mechanical, you're probably right. His "understanding" was from a shallow, intellect-only level of book-learning, and lacked completely any actual EXPERIENCE of subjects explaining EXPERIENCE.

Thanks My Friend!! I really appreciate it. I will listen attentively

I'm assuming that you are not finding what you want to know about revelation-and-impartation manifestations right from the bible or personally from asking God. Do you wonder why this could be? Nevertheless, if you or anyone else is able to find an author who has reliable evidence for the working of miracles, healing, faith, discerning of spirits, etc. which truly works for you as well, please be sure to share it on your thread. Thanks.

What a cash grab. Just an awful means of providing a written foundation for relentless legalism

Do you ever get tired of trying to squeeze your political views in here?

Thanks For the Letters Charlene, I'm new in the Forum though I lurked for years. And I left the Way 2 years ago.

The Hiding Place...Corrie Ten Boom

Former Jr. Corps member Steven Perez of Family Corps 9 shared a photo album of his recent visit to the Indiana Campus in Rome City. Good stuff both photos and captions. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?vanity=dtension&set=a.10161220720074418

One of the most liberating things when I left TWI was the realization the Sh1t Happens.