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Showing content with the highest reputation since 07/21/2019 in Posts

  1. 4 points
    Same pattern.........always. Rivals wait for opportunistic time Head Minister passes away or retires When not promoted to big chair....plots strategy Abides time to "break away" and be in charge Find chinks in their armor/doctrine Isolate his splinter group from "wrong doctrine" Be sure that support ($$$) is firmly in place Behold.......another offshoot grows in the midst Nothing new under the sun...... Heck.....wierwille's "thriving ministry" only lasted 12 years (1970-1982) Then, he retired......and the infighting started.
  2. 3 points
    So true...........they are just not EQUIPPED with the right tools and ropes to get out of this cult rut and rot. THAT is why GSC is so damn important! More than three decades of splinter cults.......Lynn, Finn3gan, Seed, Carr, Burt0n, Hendricks, Rea-hard, Rood, Sann, Sides, Quillen, McMullan, Geer, etc, etc........and now, the latest two groups, Magnelli via Oikeos and these ex-corps coordinators spearheading R&R. Years and years of more involvement and fellowship....followship UNTIL the indoctrination (Momentus) or scandal became too blatantly obvious. And then, a mini-exodus from a mini-splinter cult. Some have died. Some have faded away. I find it incredulous that believers (cough, cough)....indoctrinated followers STILL are trapped in this mindset. Don't they read others books and material besides the wierwille books and class syllabi? Don't they have an independent thought that they can call their own? How rigid and boring it must be to go thru life having others dictate the boundaries of your existence (rut). Looking back on all this......as I've stated before, "I tend to see wierwille in terms of his narcissist pathologies to acquire power and dominance over others. It was only after he had "cornered the market" of stolen and plagiarized work from others that his "ministry" came to the fore and he made greater strides of controlling others. Dependence on twi was the alpha and omega.........not independence. Everything in the cult was a sequence..........of followship. Not once in all my years in twi did any leader encourage me to "go to the Lord in prayer." Every cog in the twi-machine functions on OBEDIENCE TO WIERWILLE-DOCTRINE..........not biblical authority."
  3. 2 points
    Lotza things kids, Having been around during that period of Lynn 's exit and having spoken with him twice the year he skated out, John Lynn's "quitting/getting fired" from the Way Ministry was kinda self serving. It benefitted him in several ways: - He crafted his own exit message around his personal involvement and culpability in the things that were "wrong" with the Way Inc. I mention that because when he and I spoke the first time about his leaving, he didn't want to talk at all about issues I brought up to him that I felt he had some accountability for. - He was able to personally attack all of the Trustees and anyone he wished without any chance of their rebuttal or responding. - He created and managed the environment in which he WOULD deal with anything he chose - He was able to start teaching what was to become a long string of half-assed-theories-of-the-week ideas unchallenged, while claiming he was walking in "Doctor's Footsteps" (which he told me over the phone). And when I told him he and I both knew ANY deviation from PFAL would have "The Doctor" shoving his foot up his ass he just chuckled and said "well, we'll all know someday" and continued to blab on. When I last spoke to him in - 1987? - I was still formally attached to the Way Inc. via my then-current Corps assignment but I was very aware that the Way Nash's leadership structure was in rack and ruin and I had no rose-colored expectations that it was going to get better. IMO however, Lynn did no great service to anyone in "revealing" the evils of the Way Trustees that he didn't get a lot in return for. It set the stage for all his future efforts and effectively made him an heir-apparent for all the ex-Wayfers who still needed a nipple to suck on and a warm crotch to lay their head on while being taught "the Bible" again and again and again and again. And again. Other than a phone call in the '90's when he was traveling around with a new book to sell and a coffee can to collect money in when he taught, I have had no contact from him at all. I wouldn't get involved in any of his enterprises, listen to him talk or buy anything he was selling. I'd love to engage in any number of normal real life activities, if the opportunity fell into my lap but other than that I do pray for his health and healing. Over the years I've heard and seen a few things here and there that he's done and - maybe it's just me - but he's turned into a terrible speaker and teacher, IMO. He's not really "funny", which everyone likes to say to get you to listen...."He's just as funny as he ever was".....and I'm not hard pressed to find yet another LOL jokester. I'm sure he's about as good as anyone would be who's been pounding the book for this many years but it's been years since I was dependent on the Teaching Teat of Ex Way Teat-chers. Seriously - there's a lot of sludge out there. As long as they mean well and do their best, I'm fine with it, just don't try to tell me it's next level stuff or particularly meaninful or anything like it. But my Gad-a-mitey, this is ancient history. Why do I persist, and to what ends? I guess it's a way to sort through the detritus and dust and pull out the odd dime or quarter lost in the cushions. God bless 'im but if the intent is to carry on with the message of Christ and salvation to the future generations it's time to give this bullshit a rest and focus on "GOD'S WORD" instead of whether or not one of us old and breaking down former wannabe-s can still punch our old weight. I would say this with no equivocation however and with all the state and stature it deserves - Lynn is the Undisputed King of The Church of JAL. All hail the King of JAL!!
  4. 2 points
    Any one remember the corpse week meeting (hope OK to use a DWBH's "satirism"... feels so GOOD) in the big tent in '80 I think, in which a courageous guy stood up and expressed the idea that the sexual activity of Pa&l Virgil*o in Idaho with young female believers, should be addressed?? I sure do... (Will share in another post about the reasons I particularly remember, and perhaps what I would stand up and say now, heh heh.) There was vpw with some other leading men sitting on a raised platform up front, with an audience of all of the corpse folks who had come in for the week attending the open meeting. After the speaker basically intimated that the sexual abuse (by the handsome young musician limb co-ordinator) was wrong and should be addressed, vpw made light of the request and quickly deflected it by saying that it wasn't really a sin. NEXT? Oh yeah. Lesson Learned for/by me. And particularly by all of the young raised-in-the-way folks who had been sexually abused. Oh Yeah... Hope you can follow me... All I want to write in this post. Thanks for reading whoever does!
  5. 2 points
    As a representative of an offshoot, JAL epitomizes the logical output of TWI – a “ministry” which wierwille himself derived – like some parasitic insect…by plagiarizing, hijacking, and using basic-megalomaniac-bossy-pants-feats-of abuse, shoved an insidious idea down the throats of anyone who would listen; this idea was the key element in any sales pitch promoting TWI…the idea being that wierwille/TWI had cornered the market on correctly interpreting the Bible. This insidious idea continued with JAL – as evident in an early letter from him suggesting his group - leaving the drudgery of servitude to TWI was like the Hebrews of old escaping the bondage of Egypt with all their gold. In my opinion, JAL is more along the lines of a motivational speaker…a salesman. What is he selling? Having been through way corps training I remember much of it was geared to developing myself as first a good salesman and then learning to manage those who I have motivated to get or stay involved with TWI.
  6. 2 points
    So true.......it becomes progressively more nuanced in accordance with your commitment level. At first, you are born just "body and soul" When you receive holy spirit (via the new birth).....you become "body, soul and spirit" complete (#3 = complete) BUT......until you manifest this new creation within you (via speaking in tongues)....you are an "unbelieving believer" (see the nuance) When you manifest holy spirit by speaking in tongues.......you know that you are heaven bound and all hell can't stop you from going (twi-version) BUT......you want to do more than THAT, don't you? Therefore, you need to learn how to do "tongues w/ interpretation and prophecy" (intermediate class) Thus, you now are able to EXHORT and COMFORT others in the ekklesia (the called-out body of believers) in orderly fashion in a believer's mtg BUT......you want to do more than THAT, don't you? Therefore, you need to learn how to operate ALL NINE of the manifestations. Thus, you then need to sit thru twi's advanced class, memorize the 16 keys to walking by the spirit and all definitions of each manifestation. Now......you are FULLY TAUGHT (a mature believer)...........except you need to attend all meetings to be "faithful in the present truth." No matter how many decades you've been in twi.........the board of directors are always the LEADERS, and you are a lowly student. You cannot leave twi EVER.......or you become a cop-out, a greasespot-by-midnight, and if not dead, surely possessed. You are ONLY a "believing believer" as long as you jump thru all of their hoops, adhering to ALL OF THEIR MANDATES AND UPDATED CLASSES. Okay, that's enough............now I've got a frickin' headache. .
  7. 2 points
    Like Java Jane said - if you subscribe to TWI’s definition then I too am an unbeliever. However, I’ve taken up a more active role in my evolving belief system. I look at life as a journey. Raised Roman Catholic but at a critical juncture in my young life I chose to join TWI. Initially, I felt I was in the driver’s seat. But after years and years of programs, meetings, adopting a certain mindset and thinking I was serving God – most of my “motoring” skills took a back seat. If life is a journey - then this portion of the trip I was taken for a ride. Why did I leave TWI? Maybe it was something like watching a train wreck in slow-motion…me slowly coming to the realization that there was something morally wrong with the whole thing. My beef is not over theology or some particular doctrine. I mean, if you look at the Pharisees in Jesus’ day – they may have had a tight theological system (whatever that is) but morally there was such dark overgrown jungle-like stain on their hearts that they often received Jesus’ most vehement criticism. I would describe myself as a believer – with the Bible and the basics of Christianity as part of my moral compass on this journey of faith.
  8. 2 points
    What I see in this discussion is how we apply our Christian Faith and not just or only doctrinal beliefs. The practice for Christianity as I see it is love and peace and not hatred. As an example Jesus Christ said to even "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". Matthew 5:43-48. One thing here though is that Socks shows a lot of energy. Amazing how he is able to run around, move his body and and then jump over and over again. WOW!
  9. 2 points
    Don't really know where else to put this story... Move if needed. Well, taking a deep breath, and sharing here a brief history of the sexual abuse I experienced in what I had thought was FINALLY a place I could be cared about and where I could escape the "mental hospital" and recover from the breakdown I was experiencing in Jan '74. At the time was a Baptist folk-song-loving hippie, abusively married, VISTA-volunteering-in-very-racist-very-rural-southern-VA as a college graduate from New England. Starting in the Family Camp where I took PFAL as a brand new believer in NY that summer, a series of sexual encounters gradually began; I had been raped twice, as a 12 year old and on my honey moon night, but had kind of buried the memories, so was particularly vulnerable. At the CF&S Family Camp in OH three weeks later, my boundaries were further broken by the class, altho I was healed of some of the bondage and trauma surrounding sex. However, the pendulum was set to swing into the license-to-sin culture of the way that has been brought to light here and other places. Guess my path was pretty predictable- it involved being sexually abused by two young leaders and then engaging in sex with believer bros, then two guys I was "witnessing" to, etc. There were other incidents that were not (what's a cool way to say full-on intercourse?) Was invited on the motor coach corpse week '80; vpw dropped his pants, but I was again in mental distress after my interim year, and he ended up talking about my next year's assignment as we cuddled, thank You GOD! So from the Advanced Class '79 (July?) to the summer of my final WOW year in '83, I had 10 full sexual encounters/ relationships along with other activity that the culture sanctioned. (Was too "out of it" to protect with safe sex precautions, but my female system had shut down either due to the running, all the birth control pills in traveling hippie times, or the traumas, so there you had that...) When I finally kind of realized that I was becoming an abuser, I said Enough! These are my brothers and I am their sister, and this is wrong. I mentioned in another post how I learned that sexual abuse was A-OK with vpw et al; and of course along with it came the message that women were less than, that it was fine for men to help themselves to the young women, etc. 1 CORINTHIANS 7:1 WAS TAUGHT IN CF&S, YET. . . . . What's new?? A counselor labeled the way as misogynistic... Guess so?! Could of course, talk about how the way contributed to very good things in my life like meeting my future h, having my children with him, making wonderful friends, receiving some deliverance, etc. BUT! I am in full-time trauma recovery from many things, among them the cult aspects of the way and the sexual abuse. All for now I think... Blessings to all!
  10. 2 points
    You WANT to be a believer? You HAVE to be a follower? ENTER into the world of The Way Ministry's Doublespeak. The language that deliberately obscures. Phrases that use sleight-of-hand to disguise. Descriptions that intend to distort. Definitions that reverse the meaning of words. The Way = The Way International (a follower by twi-servitude) The Way = the Lord Jesus Christ (a follower by making him lord of your life) HERE is how to be a follower of The Way International............. : "The Way is a fellowship of the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the manifestation of the more abundant life. A follower of The Way is filled with and manifests power from on high, holy spirit, and freely avails himself of fellowship meetings for spiritual nurture and growth. The Way fellowship is cemented together by the Spirit of God with each individual believer being transformed by the renewing of his mind according to the Word of God." NOW.......look at the Doublespeak of wierwille's use of phrases and words to define his "ministry": the more abundant life manifests power from on high spiritual nurture and growth renewing of the mind the Word of God Wierwille/twi has obscured and distorted each one of those terms in class presentation (pfal). Is "the more abundant life" physical or spiritual? Wierwille "looked around" and states (in pfal) that he SAW PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT CHRISTIAN living more of an abundant life that the church-going Christians. Is "manifesting power from on high" simply speaking in tongues in a believer's meeting......or is it a DAILY walk with your lord, mediator and savior Jesus Christ doing that which is pleasing to our Heavenly Father, loving and serving Him? Is "spiritual nurture and growth" defined by taking all of twi's classes and THEN, upgraded classes years later? Or, is it more deeply embedded in a deep, trusting spiritual relationship with our Father walking in His love and His light? Is "renewing of the mind" simply a matter of adhering to pfal material and twi's claptrap? Or, is it a moment-by-moment process (enlightenment?) of trusting Him and letting His will be done in our lives (as a vessel - pouring out in service to another)? Is "the Word of God" merely the teachings and plagiarized material from victor paul wierwille? Or, is it far-superior and excellent in power, deliverance and fulfillment as prophets of old spoke as they were moved via the holy spirit....whereby we have some of that mighty Word of God today in the written holy scripture? I believe that some of what I was taught in pfal/twi had a basis of truth in it...... I believe that much of what I was taught in pfal/twi was distorted, obscured and twisted..... I believe that most of what I was taught in pfal/twi wilts in significance to what is truly "power from on high"....and truly, The Word of God. .
  11. 2 points
    All too true. Re: going to the Lord in prayer. What we were encouraged to do was recite our lift list while speaking in tongues. In retrospect, it now seems more like we were trying to invoke some sort of magical spell.
  12. 2 points
    I think your original analysis is accurate. That is how both cult and sexual assault survivors are called liars. The idea is to throw doubt into the survivor's testimony, and point out all the years that have passed to suggest nobody can remember details that far back. Then, the real key...even if the question is answered ("nope...not once") the accuser(s)' last word is far from being given.
  13. 2 points
    Nope.......not once. Cults, like twi, do their level best to always keep "their people" in submission. Dependence was the name of their game.......not INDEPENDENCE. To offer advice/counseling that one "should seek the Lord in prayer".....is to relinquish control of that follower (to seek the Lord). With each passing year, wierwille devised a set of one-liners that he accentuated over and over again. Along with the "man of God DOCTRINE".......he commandeered the authority of one who speaks for God (yeah, right). Slick, deceptive con. And, all of his lieutenants marched in lockstep. But hey......that's what cults do. What were all those cult buzz-lines back then? It's the Word, the Word.....and nothing but the Word. Lift Lists? Sure.....with vpw and trustees at top of list. VPW quote......"If you're wrong, I will tell you." The Word = bible verses filtered thru twi's classes and material Corps Research Papers......had to be sanctioned by "research advisors" Corps Research Papers......had to be rooted in pfal material, not "new" stuff Not once......did any corps leadership direct me to "seek the Lord in prayer" concerning corps assignments, department issues, courtship/marriage, etc. We were simply railroaded to obey leadership.....always. Heck, even as late as March 2017.......Moynihan, Fort and Horney refer .....2. Eliminate the “absolute” power of the current self-appointed board. THAT was what it was like at hq back in 1980-1984 as well. Wierwille had absolute power to pull all the levers of power at his command. The Way International WAS and IS a cult......using the subtle power of spiritual abuse. In twi, they looked at prayer.....in terms, of Lift Lists. Mechanical, contrived, obedience. Looking back.....I can hardly believe how crazy and controlled it really was.
  14. 2 points
    And will NOT allow our decision making process to be influenced by juvenile insults.
  15. 2 points
    Thanks for your personal courage in sharing those morally depraved and physically degrading incidents you experienced first hand. I BELIEVE YOU! The after effects linger, now some 40+ years! Imagine what damage is being done by the current wierwillean cults like Frontczak and the remnants of Victor Barnard’s River Road Fellowship, “Rev” Charlie “Mr. Bless Patrol” Quillen, frontczak’s former boss, in IL, “Rev” Chris Geer and Word Promotions, now down in NC somewhere, and “Rev” Super —classified-double-secret-probation Kung fu agent, Doug MacMullan, at his family farm in MS, where V2P2 and poppa JP carry on the dictor paul legends and good ole daze. YOUR COURAGE and honesty will help future victims Annio, as well as prevent future victims as women all around the world agree, “TIME’S UP!”. There is no statute of limitations on truth! Thank you again for your bravery and honesty, Annio!....................peace.
  16. 2 points
    BTW....... The other “leading men” demagogueing from the stage were Da Forehead, as Corpse Director, and “Rev” Beence Finnegan”, Trunk Coordinator. Another two dirty sexual predators who never confronted the Verge.
  17. 2 points
    Well Annio......I absolutely remember that meeting because I was standing about 30 feet from Virgilio during that entire incident. And you are absolutely correct! Dictor paul totally glossed over it in a jocular, dismissive, manner, as if it was a matter of fact. But “no problen”! Drunken pervert John Wilmer Townsend, future Fog Years Twustee, was the Western Region Guy at the time. He was as dirty as dictor paul himself! His own wife, in her corpse graduation speech in 1972, bragged how she slept in the same bed with dic’n’dotsie during her entire time in-rez with the first corpse! LMAO! Let me State this: During my entire time as a Region guy and the Trunk guy, THE NUMBER ONE REASON THAT CAUSED ME TO FIRE “LEADERSHIP” WAS SEXUAL PREDATION/ABUSE AND ADULTERY. NUMBER TWO WAS EMBEZZLEMENT. The perps number in the scores! That’s all that needs to be said, imho.
  18. 2 points
    This was Jim Doop's last post. .......[bold-faced for emphasis]
  19. 2 points
    Genesis 4:20-22 (NASB) 0 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe. 22 As for Zillah, she also gave birth to Tubal-cain, the forger of all implements of bronze and iron; and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah. ====================================================== -Jabal was "the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock." -Jubal was "the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe." Let's be sensible. Was this TRYING to say "all nomadic herders everywhere are the direct descendants of Jabal"? Was this TRYING to say "all musicians everywhere are the direct descendants of Jubal?" If so, what about nomadic herders who play the pipe? We know THEY existed (and probably exist to this day.) This was saying that these men were the forerunners of those people, the pioneers of those people who did those things. ====================================================== There's this tap-dance that was introduced to make Jesus' comments supposedly claim that Adam was "the serpent." The alleged reasoning went thusly: "Speaking to the apostate Jews of His day, Jesus said, “Ye serpents…" "Ye are of your father the devil" and that there must have been some sort of genetic basis for saying he was their father. So, the "father" part had to be literally a genetic bloodline and could not be figurative nor symbolic, while the "serpent" part had to be figurative and symbolic and could not be literal. ============================ In both the early chapters of Genesis and elsewhere in the Bible, "father" often is symbolic and not referring to a genetic sire. But this writer seems to have missed that- and without "father" being REQUIRED to be genetic, his entire basis for bringing in the Gospels falls down because it does not support his case (if anything, it undermined his case.) This is not difficult to see, with a plain reading of the text. There is no need for an esoteric or a "mystery" version of the text.
  20. 2 points
    DWBH..........ironic, indeed! THOSE who were the most complicit to this evil and secrets........are STILL the most dedicated to this pseudo-Christian con. Splinter Cults like these........lord over people who claim to "research the bible" but can't find common sense staring them in the face. Ugh.
  21. 2 points
    Thanks for your posts, Penworks and Skyrider! Informative and enlightening. I lived at HQ from 1979-1984, as both Midwest Region Coordinator and Trunk guy. During that entire time, Quillen was the head of Bless Patrol. Along with Scott Jarvis, Jim Peterson, Don Wierwille, MacMullan, and Geer, Quillen was a prime mover in getting his Bless Patrol Dept. legally and officially deputized by the Shelby County Sheriff’s Office, which effectively made Bless Patrol a Sherriff sanctionioned private police force made up of deputized members of the Shelby County Sherriff’s Office! They ALL had to successfully complete the Ohio Sherriff Deputies qualification and performance exams, which they did. As I said, my entire time of post-in-rez time at HQ, 9/79-8/84, Quillen was the head of Bless Patrol. He was joined-at-the-hip with Geer and super-secret-double-probation-agent MacMullan the entire time I was there. ALL the sexual dalliances of ALL the “Trustees” were coordinated and “overseen” by these three Wierwille gestapos. There are scores of personal, eyewitness, firsthand accounts right here over the 19 years of GSC posts, which document the evil, and sometimes guilty stares, at vic’s victims as they marched off the Bunny Hatch, as Dotsie referred to the motor coach, by one or more of these loyal pimps for da MOG. Not one of them would hesitate for one second to put a bullet into ANYONE vic perceived as a threat. NOT ONE. These days, it is ironic to note, that each one of those three hitman security guards and pimps, runs his own wierwille cult. Geer does his “Word Promotions” franchises out of Maine, Quillen runs his offshoot out of CFFM in Illinois, and Agent MacMullan helps run SOWERS on his family’s MS farm with V2P2, victor paul wierwille II, JP’s kid. And, then there’s Mark Frontczak, Victor Barnard’s right-hand man pedophilic sexual predator at their River Road Felliwship in Finlayson, MN. He was a very loyal and high profile Bless Patrol guy under Quillen. He also enabled and participated in the incredible Victor Barnard cult for nearly 20 years, for which Barnard himself now gets severely beat up in prison regularly, for just a few of the 59+ sexual crimes he committed with Frontczak’s help and support! Frontczak is now happily back with his former boss and the offshoot networks hawking his “spiritually right on” cartoons and acting as if he never heard of Barnard......kinda like trump never met or heard of any of his victims either. So, the wierwillean cults continue vic’s only legacy, lying about their faddah in da woid while continuing to pimp his Aryan, Nazi fundamentalist “Christian” cult. So, the wierwillean legacy marches on through the scores of all these offshoot TWIt cults spread around the country. Thank God that the GSC is still here! Faithfully and factually telling the other side of the story of these destructive and immoral wierwille cults.
  22. 2 points
    Everything would have changed. He BRIEFLY (in the 1950s) talked about Ecumenical movements- he would have continued as ecumenical, giving Leonard and Stiles due credit, and claiming an eclectic group that did their best to incorporate the best of what each Christian ministry offered. If he reached out the the hippies, it would have been a joint effort and even-handed, and the results would still be felt to this day rather than having choked the vitality out of a nascent Christian movement.
  23. 1 point
    Okay, I'll bite, since I got a specific mention in the lead-in thread. On Sunday morning I was in my little church and we were singing a song in which there's a line about Jesus being the Healer. I occasionally suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome (aka RSI) and I must have done something earlier in the week that strained my wrist. My wrist had ached badly since about Thursday, worse at night, and wakes me with the severe discomfort. So I'm singing this song and suddenly pay attention to the words and think, "Why am I singing this - I need healing - right now," look at my arm and wrist as if I'd never seen either before, and think, "That's enough. I claim this healing. Now!" Right then, the song finished, the service moved on - and I later realised that since then, there's been no more pain in my wrist since that moment. No feeling of heat, things slipping into place, or any other sensation. Just - no sensation. No pain. All functioning as perfectly as should be.
  24. 1 point
    [quote']"...if Mother Teresa had graduated from the Corps program, for example, do you think that either VPW, or Craig, would "Ordain" her as a Reverend or a Pastor in the Ministry? Or, do you think these guys would refuse to Ordain her because she couldn't successfully lead and manage a Fellowship?...."[/quote] ======================================== ======================================== ======================================== They might do any of a number of things. Then again, as people qualified to judge who should be ordained, both fell FAR short of the mark, and I would sooner trust a roll of the dice to determine suitability than either of them. vpw might have ordained her- if he thought she was hot and thought he could get into her pants that way. Knowing what we know of her, I suspect he would not ordain her, because he would think of her as neither "someone he could have sex with" nor "someone who could sell the classes and twi experience." I know lcm got all his "training" from vpw, so I'd suspect many of the same answers from him, but I'd be less certain of what he'd do, especially since he became erratic during the 1990s. Why should we care if either of them would think someone was suitable for ordination or not?
  25. 1 point
    After reading the passage outlined in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 (drawing an analogy between parts of the body to roles of importance in a church organization), if Mother Teresa had graduated from the Corps program, for example, do you think that either VPW, or Craig, would "Ordain" her as a Reverend or a Pastor in the Ministry? Or, do you think these guys would refuse to Ordain her because she couldn't successfully lead and manage a Fellowship? Personally, I would Ordain Mother T 'in a New York minute' because I know for a fact how important it is to have a fair amount of Servants (especially people who enjoy it and are good at it), as well as good quality Leaders serving as Pastor or Board of Trustees/Elders/Deacons to help manage and push the church in the right direction. I know of a Baptist church near me, which completely dissolved recently because its Pastor, who had the ability to deliver a Prayer or a Sermon like William F. Buckley Jr., couldn't really delegate responsibility or do anything else. As with VPW and Craig, this guy loved to "hit on" the lady-folk in the congregation, but since this church was literally floundering with about a dozen members for its nearly two decade existence, there never was a whole heck of a lot of "hot chicks" to pick from. Come to think of it, maybe it's a blessing in disguise that this church I'm referring to went, "belly up". But as was mentioned earlier on this thread, Humility might be the greatest characteristic of all when you're talking about someone you really want Leading a Church -- even over Knowledge of the Bible or the savvy to delegate others on a given task. Humility made a Church Leader like the late Billy Graham truly one of a kind. I'm sure if, for example, there was ever any hint of infidelity in Graham's marriage, the mainstream media would've exposed that a heck of a lot quicker than it did with either Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart. Graham had too much respect and reverence not only to God, but for the woman he was married to, to allow himself to engage in something like that. Humility is also a characteristic you can't really teach or study at a Ministry college, or even Corps training -- you either got it or you don't. Getting back to Mother Teresa, can you imagine either: VPW, or Craig, or Chris G33R, or even JAL comforting, embracing or giving some semblance of hope to someone suffering from Leprosy or AIDS? In all fairness to our great Ministry leaders of the past, I too would probably have reservations -- unless it was a close relative of mine -- to physically embrace and comfort someone with a terminal illness like that. The more I think about, it seems like our salvation for Eternal Life is more contingent on what's in our Hearts, as opposed to what's in our Heads. I don't know. Bottom Line: If an individual lacks Humility, they really ought to consider another endeavor in life other than trying to lead a Church. That's my rant of the day, at least till tomorrow.
  26. 1 point
    I would also add in general agreement to many of the comments above that TWI's definition of an "unbeliever" was a mix of theology and what I'd call social prejudice. I'll explain - Those of us involved from the late 60's through the 80's know that the Way advertised itself as a non-sectarian and non-denominational group. At the same time the Way was creating it's own denomination, so defined because - if it succeeded in it's goals of "Word Over the World" (not Craig's later lack of interest in continuing to try and just declaring by sacred fiat that voila! it had been achieved) then it would in essence create a new, "true" body of the Church that would stand out separately from all other denominations and churches by it's own, "accurate" and correct theology. While the Way liked to give lip service to the truth and fact that the New Testament teaches that the "church of believers" is ALL those born again of Christ, using the simplest and sparest of essential points of doctrinal requirement..... They/We didn't live that, didn't apply that, didn't believe that part of God's Word. VPW taught that the "family" of God might include all born again believers, all "sons", all those who were born again but - The "household" was all the accurately taught and actively believing believers. "Standing" believers. And he taught from the epistles from the perspective that the "true believers" in the Way were the same "household" as the "true standing believers" in Pauls day. Within that he created sub groups of "corps", and "staff" and "WOW Ambassadors", and other forms of commitments that allowed for specific application of time, talent and service within that household of "standing believers" ..... Who in our day and time just happened to be Way PFAL grads and who fulfilled some basic requirements of what I would call "non-membership", laughingly....those are people who go to a Way fellowship at least once a week (it had been once a month at one point), manifest "power from on high" and speak in tongues, and who financially support the ministry. Anyone who was around from the late '60's will remember how that language got introduced and how it slowly evolved into a set of expectations, requirements, traditions and rituals - all the components of a developing religious denomination. It just did. I get frowns from Wayfers who have left at some point and who feel it didn't go that route, and especially those who adhere to all or some of what they learned from the Way. I do too but even allowing for differences of opinion I see it as both naive and facetious to not see that was happening as it did. And it's self serving to not recognize it now.
  27. 1 point
    Regarding the NOT service oriented teaching of so called "personal prophecy" I found the information and am now remembering my opposition to this doctrinal and especially practical error. What this was about was to lord over God's heritage. It was not for service to followers of Jesus Christ. They were using this so called new doctrine to form a new hierarchy of leadership with more money to be received. This was not only used by CES, but used by the following Here is the link that shows this. https://personal-prophecy-today.com/ Here is a link to an article which explains the problem that I saw about 15 or 20 years ago, but did not remember the details of. So called personal prophecy was being used for political mixed with religious power and authority. John's wife I think saw the problem with this and tried to correct them, but was obstructed. http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_cesCrisis.htm The person who wrote this article did a very good job in factual, truthful and practical writing. I give him a grade of "A". As an example, he wrote, A theocracy is "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god." The person also wrote the following. I recommend reading this article with link above.
  28. 1 point
    I know, if I had to choose one or the other to "follow", I'd choose MS over JAL. He has a lower track record of major boondoggles, and a LOT more humility. He also gets involved in people's lives and actually cares about them, and not just what they can do for him. A few minutes in a room with one and the other make it obvious they view people completely differently- you can feel the difference and see it for yourself.
  29. 1 point
    I guess I admire and respect JAL for still being out there 50+ years later, presenting his knowledge of the Bible to the best of his ability. Is the guy 100 percent accurate on every single jot and tittle he says and writes about the Bible? Probably not, but who is? I think Billy Graham's ministry lasted a little longer than what John's got now, and he probably encountered a few mistakes and inaccuracies along the road. But I tend to think that both Graham and JAL were/are a little more right than they were wrong when it came to the Bible, and then willing to humble themselves and repent to get back on the right track. I don't mean to sound too religious here but I think we're all approaching a day which a lot of folks had wished that they had done more to share God's Word and maybe help others obtain salvation -- or something -- versus just sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. In the famous last words of one of my favorite Rock stars, David Cassidy, former lead singer of the Partridge Family, "There's just too much wasted time." Well, that's my preaching rant for today, I'll shut-up at least till tomorrow.
  30. 1 point
    "The Way is a fellowship of the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the manifestation of the more abundant life. A follower of The Way is filled with and manifests power from on high, holy spirit, and freely avails himself of fellowship meetings for spiritual nurture and growth. The Way fellowship is cemented together by the Spirit of God with each individual believer being transformed by the renewing of his mind according to the Word of God." TRANSLATION: The Way Ministry is a pyramid scheme, where the top Pharaoh/Pharisee mandates policy, and the workers obey with daily tasks of servitude. The servant-follower obeys the chain-of-command by adhering to teachings, classes and home-group meetings of weekly conformity. The Way Group masks its coercion and cohesion by utilizing scripture and factions of pseudo-Christianity to entice new recruits. The deeper chambers of this pyramid reveal that all of these workers and their servitude is for the leisure, lust and longevity of the man-god ruling over them.
  31. 1 point
    According to TWI's definition of unbeliver, I am one. A rank one. Currently practicing a combination of Catholicism, Buddhism, and Paganism. I can't say I have held on to any of the core beliefs of TWI. They all dropped off as I picked them up and examined them once I was outside of the group. I do still hold on to the memories of the beliefs, and I have found it has given me a lot of empathy for others who follow belief systems (religious and political) that I do not subscribe to. I feel that I have become more of who I really am in the process - not someone who is watching myself do things according to how someone else has told me it should be done, but instead living in the present moment, comfortable in my own being, knowing my decisions are my own to make. I base my belief now on the simple "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself" with the definition of neighbor being all humanity instead of the narrow view of "the Household of Zion."
  32. 1 point
    Ooooh! Count me in... (j/k)
  33. 1 point
    Hi, Socks. I always thought Hot Tuna was some primo stuff. I have strange tastes, though. Bad chicken, on the other hand, is an aversion I can get behind. Sounds to me like this Momentus gig is some bad chicken, rancid, if you will. Stinky-ola-cola. "Proceed directly to dumpster and pitch it with gusto" kind of stinky.
  34. 1 point
    Some thoughtful posts from Socks (his best ever, I think). And then the usual spats from the usual suspects. Kinda like sitting by a peaceful riverbank contemplating life and the joys of nature, and turning round to find a street brawl going on behind you. Hardly surprising that people are put off coming here. There are other riversides to sit beside. Not without the occasional brawl, but these get settled quickly and don't keep festering, to distract continually.
  35. 1 point
    If the rules somewhere are truly so repugnant to someone that the feel they can't post there without clashing with the moderators or breaking them, the only sensible thing to do is to post elsewhere, and, if necessary, to make their OWN messageboard where they can A) make the rules B) deal with any repercussions if anything happens for any reason (technical, legal, etc) There is no constitutional right to post on this or any other messageboard.
  36. 1 point
    Everything in the cult was a sequence..........of followship. By the mid-90s........the insanity of followship went to new heights. To be 'active' corps.........now, they HAD to be full-time, all-the-time, employees. Attend Martindale's New Advanced Class (cough, cough).......wierwille stuff "old wineskins" Every adv class grad and corps grad needed this upgrade to maintain good standing in cult Get rid of ALL old ministry music tapes from those who left twi......you might get possessed Plan to go two-by-two........having a believer with you strengthens your power to prevail Re-take all classes.....Foundational, Intermediate, Advanced....to have "present truth" Dial-A-Sunday-Service.....listen to HQ-led teacher, stand up, sit down, sing, clap.....followship folly In fact.....be sure to witness to a new person and bring him/her to this Dial-A-Sh!tty-Service But the Ultimate Kick-Azz Followship Doctrine of All......Plan & Submit Your Weekly Schedule in 15-minute increments .......Yep, follow your submitted schedule staying within the framework of those preconceived 15-minute slots A believer is a follower......and a good follower is a good believer. Indoctrination Complete. TWI never had a corps leadership program. It was ALL a fabricated scam. Today's splinter groups have the SAME plan...........followship masquerading as fellowship.
  37. 1 point
    I think another I learned through this is that in the Way, a lot of the doctrine was taught as inward facing stuff, things I do as a lifestyle and some things I do with others. At the same time VPW would say things like “it’s just a walk kids, you just walk”. But unless we disconnected from the programmatic mechanical nature of the lifestyle (12 keys to this, 3 steps to that, memorize this, practice that) it was extremely difficult to “just do it”. I compare it to say, having a hammer. And I learn all about that hammer, get taught about hammers, the history of it, how it’s made, the different types, and practice holding and using it, and even go out and hammer some nails in someone’s else’s project. But then if I never got up one morning and grabbed it, some nails and went out to build something and used it with my drill and saw, I wouldn’t Use it anywhere near it’s full potential. That to me is what the Way Corps lifestyle became. As long as everything was connected back to VPW, The HQters, and the program it was valid. Stepping out of that or even producing work that USED “the principles” but didn’t lead back to VPW’s ministry was invalid. Tripped out. “Back 40 stuff”. That kept the sphere of endeavor very small. And it was nearly impossible to see that unless you broke away, which isn’t how it had to be. At all. I got my hammer - and the life I build can now be with and through the faith of Him who loved me, and gave himself for me without extra attachments. It’s very direct and to the point - God through Jesus Christ can be glorified in me. Not “this ministry that was the only thing that could have reached you, and which you now owe your life to and is the only thing worth telling people”. Point being - Stoicism is a philosophy of practical application, not only thought. The idea is "Be the changed you want to see". One of the Stoic writers put the thought forward in their day as "don't waste time arguing what a good man should be. Be one." And that's an idea that is very much the essence of Christian faith. If that's what a person would really like to do then "being" a new person with a "new life" in Christ is exactly where it goes. And that's where it resonates with me, rather than a new way of thinking or a system of tenets, it's a reflection of an attempt to encourage us to live thoughtfully and not solely for ourselves.
  38. 1 point
    We are here to tell the truth. Not to slander. We are not the arbiters of every individual's walk after leaving TWI. Some have been explicit in their claim of leadership. Others, less so. We will do our best to protect those who deserve protection and expose those who deserve exposure. We will err. But we will err on the side of privacy. If you were hurt by those in TWi, or those AFTER TWI, WE BELIEVE YOU. But that does not mean we are willing to expose this website or its owners and moderators to the legal consequences of the claims you make.
  39. 1 point
    WordWolf: "The sad part is that we had the capacity to look up the usages fairly easily- with either a Concordance or a Greek Lexicon, but we were never encouraged to read the context to determine the meaning- we were encouraged to get the meaning, then read that into each occurrence, which is backwards. " TLC: "sorry... it's not that I don't agree that there was way far too much emphasis and focus put on greek... but I'll have to take exception to your blanket statement. (and yeah... I was a part of the research fellowship there for several years.)" WordWolf: "Well, congratulations that your experience- in the "research fellowship" - didn't match mine -out there in the living rooms. Where I sat, we were encouraged to get the meaning, then read that into the occurrences. " TLC: "...but, I guess you speak for everyone else that was involved during those years, and what I saw and experienced must be the anomaly..." Guess about that if you must, but this is another example about how different people in twi, in different places in twi, at different times in twi, had different EXPERIENCES in twi. I spoke about MY experience (and used words like "mine" and "where I sat" to make that clear). Some other people posted things similar to what I said, but can-and do-speak for themselves just as you did for yourself. As you said, YOUR experience seemed to have lacked that specific problem. I didn't doubt that, but mine HAD IT, so I posted accordingly. It would have been nice if my experience LACKED that problem, but it didn't. If you must read into that, then you must, but I don't think anyone else did.
  40. 1 point
    I guess I should be happy that I spend most of my time in the "game room." Not a lot of sniping, there! George
  41. 1 point
    Thank you so much for your honesty and candor. I'm glad things are going better for you now.
  42. 1 point
    Hoping for a good outcome for you.
  43. 1 point
    YES.......it could easily be deemed that the majority of wierwille's "ministry years" (1941-1982) were barely "scraping by." 1941- 1957.......pastoring at Payne, OH and Van Wert, OH. 1948......with vpw heading to Pikes Peak to receive his degree-mill doctorate from Pikes Peak....his Dad bought them a new 1948 Chevrolet. With 3 kids in tow.....Dotsie claimed in her book that it was "an exceptional summer" [driving to Colorado and then, to Camp Farthest Out in MN] Sep 1955 - Apr 1956......sold some of their furniture and vpw's car to make this India itinerary [mounting further dissention with the church board] Dec 1957......moved to rental house at 649 South Washington Street in Van Wert, OH [... rent payments - - vpw was 41 yrs old] Jan 1958 - March 1972 .........arguably, "struggling years" by most measures. ........by November 1958, wierwille is pleading in his mailer for 6 more families to faithfully tithe and help him meet expenses. ........for several years, wierwille was traveling from state-to-state to run his [Leonard's] foundational class to church-goers. ........and, people were endangered helping the wierwilles move IN A BLIZZARD ...... in February 1961, to the wierwille homestead. ........when pfal was filmed in 1967, every aspect was on a strict time limit...studio, lighting, furniture.....because of MONEY CONSTRAINTS. ........in fact, the desk wierwille used was "purchased" for this filming......and then, RETURNED after the filming was done ........and......in was this LACK OF MONEY that caused vpw to make foolish decisions and burn his eyes during filming!!! Much more could be added to this list. All throughout Mrs. W's book.........the lack of money, i.e. "scraping by" comes to the foreground of nearly every decision made. Why March 1972? What changed? It was the coup of Steve and Sandi Heefner in March 1972, during the Rye, NY advanced class......when things REALLY changed for vpw (imo). "The Way East (Heefner) and the Way West were INDEPENDENT 501(c)3 corporations, completely and legally separate from wierwille and new Knoxville. When Wierwille threw them out under the cover of his AC show, moneyhands, coward allen and dictor paul formed a new corporation The Way of NY, which was "owned" by new knoxville now. The Way East also included the states of New England, NJ, DE, & PA. All those states were also "incorporated under "the Way international" as subsidiaries in their own right, thus accomplishing the corporate takeover of The Way East with the "M&A-ing" of the Heefner's and consolidating all control to dictor paul and the BOT, which at that time was Ermal and Harry. Remember, those three were the ONLY official members of TWI at that time." [ from DWBH -- "Mark n Avoid" thread] So, yeah......most all of wierwille's "ministry years" were LEAN YEARS and the scales tipped in his favor when wierwille confiscated Heefner's and Doop's INDEPENDENT 501(c)3 corporations as his own. Jim Doop posted here at GSC years ago that wierwille blatantly lied and went back on his word.....85% of abs was to stay in The Way West and 15% was to be sent to the way international. Wierwille and TWI have whitewashed all of this......to exalt vpw's image and legacy. Splinter cults whitewash it as well.........the leaders are hanging onto wierwille's coattails for dear life (and livelihood).
  44. 1 point
    Considering the history of vpw's group, its "scraping by" years exceeded its successful years. He started, IIRC, in 1941. In 1942 AND 1943 (I may be off and it was 1941 and 1942), vpw claims he considered giving up. If he told the truth, he certainly didn't have much endurance to "run the race." Imagine if anyone else went to HIM talking about quitting, what a failure he'd make them out to be, especially the SECOND time. He claimed to have heard from God Almighty in 1942, and STILL nothing took off. He continued for several years in the denomination, while doing side-projects for over a decade, with a radio show, editing the work of Bible teachers, and so on. A few years after he was able to deed the family farm to HIS ministry, (time to do work around it), he went out on his own, and complained that he wasn't getting enough tithes to do the job. Even after stealing Leonard's class and Stiles' book, he had lukewarm results. If he hadn't hijacked the hippies around 1969-1970, he would have vanished into history, another would-be "giant" of history nobody's ever heard of. So, 1941-1969 is 28 years of lukewarm results and skating by. 1969-1982 is 13 years of success- built on the backs of others whom he deceived, and those years ended with him bitter and neglected just as he'd neglected so many others down the decades.
  45. 1 point
    All of these newly-exited corps are purposely dismissing The Wierwille Doctrine. Corps teaching after corps teaching.....(and Sunday Service Teachings, too).......wierwille claimed that the ONLY WAY to "stand on the Word" was to remain faithful in the way international. If you left.....you went out into the dark night of the soul. These corps, who've jumped into these new splinter cults (to try and make a splash)........are deceiving themselves. Wierwille could NOT have been more clear. If you left him/twi........you were "NOT on the Word." He relentlessly taught - - - "The Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word." If you leave the ministry (twi).......YOU LEAVE THE WORD. THAT is what wierwille taught.......(and that's why it was, as is, a cult).
  46. 1 point
    Wierwille despised the "Reverends" who left him/twi. Any clergy who exited twi and, STILL, used the "reverend" title......wierwille denigrated. The Wierwille Doctrine: Standing on The Word was ONLY available to those in twi's household. Period. Read the December 1978 Corps Letter ------ "The least you could do if you were ordained and now you're outside the household of The Way is never to used the term 'Reverend.'
  47. 1 point
    Unless any given splinter cult declares emphatically that it believes differently than Wierwille taught (and practiced), it's fair to surmise that said group's practice will be what Wierwille practiced. That includes the notion that, IOW, it's fair to characterize the the default position as how WordWolf described. It would naturally be up to any such apparent Top Dog to make the distinction by word and deed.
  48. 1 point
    I'm drawing a distinction between some of the FOLLOWERS (quietly trying to do godly things, helping others, praying) and those who rushed to the front to claim the microphone. We don't hear about the usual adherent anywhere because it's boring news- few want to hear about those who run soup kitchens and build houses, but they'd stop to hear about the corrupt "leader" who got caught. Those who pushed their way to the titles, IMHO, are in it for the titles.
  49. 1 point
    There are numerous posts here in the archives somewhere which include quite a bit of history and eyewitnessconfirmation of wierwille’s pathologic Nazi Aryanism, abject racism, and agreement with the basic religious ideology of the Third Reich. There was of course, a warped spiritualistic theology which accompanied the Nazi “mystique”. Well documented and quite interesting, you can find many vetted documentaries on the religious and spiritualistic rationalizations made for Naziism. The bottom line culmination of the matter for me, is wrapped up in the oft repeated quote during my 2 years of in-Rez corpse indoctrination, which wierwille himself spoke often in the fake safety of “nite owls with da corpse”........: “ Hitler was right. He just went a little too far at the end. We fought on the wrong side in WW II. We’re still paying the price!”! What more does anyone need to know?
  50. 1 point
    I thought they all divorced each other.


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