Leaderboard

Yes, Engine, I remember who K.F. was. His insisting people stand up when he entered the room definitely was something VPW taught us early Way Corps people. It was worse with men and women he ordained who assumed they represented God wherever they went. So much ego, so much b.s.

In my opinion, it is a disgrace for anyone to consider VPW as anything other than a con man, plagiarist, and narcissistic womanizer. This Charlene, a.k.a. Penworks. I met Gera#d Wre#n at ECU in 1970. I graduated from the 2nd Way Corps with him, and in my opinion, unfortunaly he is lost in his delusional adoration of VPW. We were all brainwashed back then. It is clear that Ger#ald has not sought to snap out of it. P.S. The Ger#Ald I refer to is the Jurry that DWBH refers to.

I've read a lot of chapters in a lot of books. Some have more than 1,000 pages. Some have fewer. The fact that someone wrote a chapter in a book that documents a phenomenon he has identified is no guarantee that the phenomenon he describes is an accurate reflection of the truth. I'm not saying Bullinger is flat out wrong about the idiom of permission. He could be absolutely right. But peculiar how few others have made the same observation, independently coming to the same conclusion. And is it or is it not time we started asking some serious questions about the reliability of Bullinger as a scholar? Because the man was BATS. Too soon? He was nuts. I mean, flat-earth, Adam was created in 4004 B.C. cuckoo. I humbly submit that his opinions on tons of subjects are... what's the word... suspect.

1. "Sadly, I cannot get this man to accept the notion that the Bible really is the word of God." Ok, let's start there. The Bible never calls itself the Word of God. That's part of the problem right there. The Bible speaks of the Word of God quite often, but it never has the self-awareness to declare itself to be that Word. Maybe, just maybe, you can be wrong about the Bible being the Word of God and still be a good Christian. 2. "I think he would like it to be..." Well, no one asked you what you think, did they? Maybe he has no preference one way or another and is just waiting for you to make a plausible case for your thesis. 3. "... but is overly obstinate and has an awful attitude towards God and his plan for man's redemption." A lot to unpack there. Has it occurred to you that maybe YOU're the one being "obstinate" with an "attitude" that won't budge no matter how many facts he presents to counter your preconceived notion that the Bible is the Word of God? Like, maybe YOU're the stubborn one, not him? Because he shows you the Bible, and you start making excuses. Oh, that's the Old Testament. God's different now. He's really kind and gentle. He did what he did before because he HAD to to fulfill the plan of redemption. Problem: The plan of redemption is only the plan of redemption because God wanted it that way. It didn't have to be. He could just accept an apology without shrugging his shoulders and saying oh well because someone found a particular fruit of a particular tree to yummy to pass up (He also could have put that tree ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET but instead put it right in front of two people who did not know good and evil; then said don't eat from that tree. Not exactly a strong case for omniscience. It's like I put a cookie on the table in front of my 7-year-old and said "Don't eat that," then walked out of the room. He's gonna eat the cookie. I'm not all knowing, and I know that). So your friend, I submit, is not stubborn. Rather, he's amused at the contortions you'll twist yourself into to deny what's obviously written. There IS not idiom of permission in the Bible. Bullinger, for what he's worth, appears to be the only one who makes an issue of it. It's hardly a scholarly consensus. The existence of other figures of speech does not verify the "idiom of permission" as something the Bible employs on a regular basis. It is, however, an extraordinarily convenient tool for believers to employ whenever their holy book shows God doing what no good God would ever do, even though the book is unambiguous about it being God who did it. But that's just the old testament. Unless, of course, you're holding back tithes from the apostles in Acts, which is New Testament. (Oh, but it doesn't say God did that. It was Satan -- even though the Bible doesn't say THAT either). The Bible is filled with examples of God saying he'll do something and then saying He did it. It doesn't say he allowed it to happen or he allowed Satan to do it. It says HE did it. Now, it COULD have said he allowed Satan to do it, very easily. Look at Job. Satan did those things. It says so. Yeah, he got God's permission, but it says that, clearly. There's no ambiguity, and there's no "this is how it works normally." A figure of speech is supposed to be a statement that is true in essence though not literally true. "It's raining cats and dogs" is a figure of speech. "This car can stop on a dime" is a figure of speech. A figure of speech is not supposed to be a way for you to get the Bible to say the opposite of what it clearly says just because what it clearly says is inconvenient for your theology. God ordered the execution of a man for picking up sticks on the sabbath. He didn't give man permission to kill the offending sabbath breaker. He gave man an order -- cast those stones! God didn't allow divorce. He prescribed it. He didn't allow Satan to kill all the firstborn of Egypt. He had it done. And he DID have a choice. When my kid offends me, I have a choice how to discipline him. You have no idea how many times my discipline has stopped short of killing him because he did his chores between sunset on Friday night and Saturday night! So here's a thought. Bear with me: Maybe your friend isn't the stubborn one in this equation. Maybe he's not the one being inflexible. Maybe, just maybe, he's given this far more thought than you have.

Grace.......imo, there are MANY nefarious reasons for Rico to start a splinter group and run classes: At his age, his resume' would look like garbage to most all employers out there. Rico was a corps coordinator and long-time staffer....would have had lots of contact with recently-exited followers. Right place, right time......a shoo in for another splinter group leader to rise from the ashes. Opportunistic and aggressive.........fundamental qualities needed by any successful cult leader. The class money pays the overhead expenses......the faithful tithing/abs is the mother lode. Perks and privileges........exponential potential payoff, adulation, travel, leisure, flexibility and exploitation-longevity. Power and control over others.........perhaps someday, office staff, subordinate leaders, church building, etc. If narcissistic pathologies and power persists.........sexual predation and lavish toys will be extracted. Cults and splinter-cults grease the skids for lots of shenanigans.......tax exemption status, religious masking, access to people during vulnerable times, authoritative figure, no accountability, operating "off the grid," access to counting/reporting of money, offers to "counsel" in financial/funeral situations, etc. etc. With wierwille being Rico's "father in da verd"..........oh my, oh my!! .

""Leadership" treated me badly. " - about 1/2 the people who left, if not more. Welcome. Over the decades, the GSC has been host to lots of twi survivors, some of whom post to this day. There's all kinds of personal stories, but common themes creep up- like abuse by so-called leadership. "It’s an organization run by pompous, arrogant, narcissistic, power freaks who, in their eyes, can do no wrong. 2 Peter 2 describes them well. "- It's obvious in hindsight, but twi was designed that way. vpw wanted all the money and control for himself, so he made his own group, and plagiarized the heck out of other Christians and claimed he got almost all of it by special revelation so twi was special, and he was special- est of the special. He treated people as disposable resources, and had no problem cultivating a public image of a nice guy while being a sociopath behind the scenes. vpw cultivated all those petty traits in himself and others. He also had no real leadership training. He had no training in leadership, and he didn't seek any when starting his "Way Corps" program. So, he never weeded out any pettiness. He didn't do quality control, either- if you could raise the money, you could go through the program. So, twi's leadership roles had a lot of those, who filled it up. When corruption came out, all the REAL leaders walked off when nothing could be done to fix twi- which left the corrupt "leaders."

When I think about my time in the Way Corps, I don't think I ever really fully identified with being a minister. I mean I was invested, and spent my early adulthood trying to be one, but I was always suppressing a part of myself to do so. Since I left TWI, I have spent years trying to rediscover who I truly am, and what my own ambitions are. I have observed that a lot of people never find their way back to themselves. They want to recapture that thing they had where they were important, and listened to, and looked up to. They think that's who they are and nothing else feels right. And you can't easily integrate into any other religious setting. So you roll your own. I feel sympathy for them. I notice as a cult survivor, I have a certain proneness to cult-like groups of all stripes. Art cults, fitness cults, education cults. I see them everywhere. I'm trying to understand and heal the part of me that needs them. Not posting as a counter point, just some additional thoughts. PEACE.

Was in TWI from 1972 to 1977. Got into TWI while in the Navy and home ported outa Norfolk,VA; given the proximety, I became a state ambassador for N.Carolina when I got outa the Navy. I went international WOW in 1974 and was sent to Oshkosh, WI, my branch leader was 4th Corp (interim year). I stayed in Wisconsin and was in the state ambassador program. I went on to join the U.S. Army in 1980 and just retired from military service (Army) in 2012 (yes, long military carreer/Lifer). I have been following the work of STF (TLTF) for a few years now; my primary interest is in the reading of their New Testament work, the REV. I am just learning my way to navigate around this site, so appogies for any double postings.

When the late Mark Gluckin finally left TWIt, he had personally and singlehandey amassed the most complete collection of vpw tapes, transcripts, photographs, Way magazines, PFAL materials and syllabi and tapes of all the Advanced Classes and AC Specials run at New Knoxville from the first one. His son, Victor Paul Gluckin, is the Co-leader with Sean Finnegan, of Living Hope Minustries International, phony Beence Feenegan runs. However, victor’s late mom Barbara, lived in St. Mary’s, OH until she died. There were several people who wound up in TN (Nashville or Knoxville area) who compiled, catalogued, sorted, and printed as many of these as they could. I do not know who the individuals involved are, but, Barbara Gluckin was married to Mark Tompary until she died. Mark is the 7th corpse grad brother of Pam Tompary Craley, a 5th corpse grad, who was the official historian at TWIt after she graduated, and married to the Editor-in-Chief of the way mag at that time. It would not surprise me if there was some collaboration between the Tomparys, Gluckins, and wierwille worshippers in TN with computer publishing skills who put the thing together. I found it as a part of “rev” Jurry’s FB Page a couple of years ago. That’s all I know about “ Eternally Bleesed”, and that’s all I’ll ever need to know about them! LOL!

It also just occurred to me that both... sitting through 40 years of boring twig fellowships AND listening to those tapes and transcribing them are failures of imagination. IOW, whoever has done either of those things can't IMAGINE anything better to do or think about. Are the things of God really that boring?

Somebody who had nothing better to do with his/her time. Can you imagine sitting through 40 years of twig fellowships teaching/listening to the same old dull, well-worn "teachings" delivered by the same old dull, boring "leaders?"

Another possibility being, of course, he wasn't nearly as successful as he was putting forth. Either is possible, and it's not like we care, anyway, He'll be forgotten soon enough.

Hey all! Haven't hopped on in a while! wow!! Any updates on what the response to this letter was? or are birds still chirping? I still know/talk sort of to some in that letter!

"The class money pays the overhead expenses......the faithful tithing/abs is the mother lode." Do the math......10% of income really adds up!! What if splinter group reaches 300 adults who faithfully tithe... 100 couples and 100 adult singles = 300 people Average in high incomes/low incomes.....ballpark averages Average annual income of couples (together) = $80,000 resulting in $8,000 tithe per couple $8,000 per couple each year X 100 couples = $800,000 per year If adult single average annual income = $40,000 results in $4,000 tithe per single $4,000 per single each year X 100 singles = $400,000 per year TOTAL: $800,000 + $400,000 = $1,200,000 per year tithe total [300 people] Running weekend classes......pays for rental fees, travel expenses, syllabus, printing, website maintenance and updates, etc. No motel costs and minimal meal costs if Rico stays at someone's home. No car rental fees. Travel perks: Arrive early -- mix "business" with pleasure. See the sights......1) Wichita, Kansas; 2) Sidney, Ohio; 3) Henderson, Nevada; 4) Loveland, Colorado; 5) Morrisville, North Carolina; ...... 6) Mini-vacation in Montana in July at forest campground. Not bad for a startup splinter. Preach the tithe. Preach partnership. Preach cheerful giving. Ride the gravy train. WooHoo

GSC is short for GreaseSpot Cafe, where you're reading this right now. It's a messageboard that tells the other sides of the story of the way international (twi) and its spinoffs/"splinters". People come here to learn about those, to socialize with other twi survivors, and so on. Its name comes from lcm's (loy craig martindale) insistence that anyone leaving twi would be overwhelmed by devils upon their exit, becoming a "GREASESPOT BY MIDNIGHT." Well, the survivors came here. Midnight has come and gone. We've gone on with our lives, and lcm was removed from twi. So, the name is "tongue-in-cheek."

It would not surprise me to find out that the Montana connection has something to do with Steve Sann. Wanna bet?? LOL!

well...let me know where it does end up k?? as I'm never too sure where & what category to put things in...so thank you for getting it right for the others as well who may have an interest TLC..So what you're saying is that Israel who Jesus had obviously "come for" & not the gentiles ..are the only ones that can operate one of the nine manifestations in l Co 12 (Miracles)? If wso ..when I daily operate tongues..it them must be counterfiet, as I'm a gentile (non Jew) John G Lake and all the Wigglesworths/Kulmans/Todd White/Dan Mohler and all the others..... must be Judeans to be privy to this OR is God NOT a respector of persons and all may freely partake of these nine manifestations.. I think God's viewpoint of this is for all those who believe on Jesus can walk in the fullness of what he says is available & obviously we can choose not to and just remain doubtful & never see the results if we HAD reached out in love for the sake of the other..this is really all about truly loving our neighbor..a person with illness..tormented by disease and such is not what God wants for them, as Jesus came to set the captives free & we're the ones here to minister NOW with his power doing the work..we're the "conduit" of God's power into the sick & infirm. Maybe this doesn't sound like tWI teaching to you & I'm saying it isn't..they "initiated it" back 40 years ago & from this other ministry..I've learned much & seen it up close..deliverances left & right just as the Bibles prophesises in the latter times..go on youtube..look up divine healing..you'll see many street healers who lay hands on the sick & they video their recoveries..(for our edification) This is exciting & we were introduced to this but seldom saw the actual happening of it while in TWI (at least I know I didn't & most others I personally know of didn't either) Do you ever recall any teaching from VP of having gone out & offer healing & he give a teaching about it/? NO never...just the man with the withered arm in PFAL..I think thats all I ever heard about..none other..ever ever..LOL..thanks for your honesty in demanding to know where I stand in all this. I apppreciate it.

That whole "needs and wants parallel" thing was more from the "God is a magic genie" ideology, and NOT from the Bible. Notice no verses were ever used to discuss it? Anecdotes, but not verses. We've discussed some of the wrong things/errors in pfal in a few different threads around here somewhere, along with threads about the errors in the Blue Book (which includes the "needs-wants" thing.

I never lived with way corps, never wanted to. I saw early on that they would have been stifling, and I wasn't interested in a restricted lifestyle living by others' rules.

Looks like Florence foesn’t speak English and ignores Batshit Pat and The Fox at Crotchaven too! North side of the largest part of the storm is gonna park right over Norfolk and Virginia Beach VA. So much for Pat and his ooga booga prayers. Rosie the Liar is from New Bern, NC. She’s on the Social Register there under her maiden name, Fox. So, New Bern is already under water because of the Neuse River flooding and the hurricane hasn’t even hit land yet. Then, it’s heading north to Ohio! Not rejoicing in inquity......just saying Mother Nature is NOT subject to the phony faith of self-deluded fools.

Oh, I already know that. I've read several of his first-hand accounts. At first I was dumbfounded, then furious, and then I felt really heartbroken for all those that lived through that insanity. All I ever did was go to a local fellowship and the classes, and I did the way disciple program once. So locally I really didn't see much of the manipulation, although I did become aware of an uneasiness in my gut that I couldn't figure out. That was three years ago, and at that point I stopped inviting people to my fellowship, and gradually reduced my participation in the branch and fellowship activities. Now I have nothing to do with TWI.

Here is what I remember........ Someone in the 6th corps told wierwille that the five-pointed star had connotations to witchcraft symbolism......and remember, the 6th corps was when the corps numbers rocketed upwards to near 330 at the Emporia Campus (the 5th corps was only 75 or so). Anyways, Christ0pher Br00ks (6th corps) and a couple of others got together and pitched their new-logo efforts to wierwille. Add some double borders, oak leaves, etc......and presto, new-improved corps logo with the five gift ministries (in Ephesians, no less --- lol) to border the pentagon logo. Wierwille, the man who was high on marketing, low on results.....sanctioned it. Even though it removed the "C" (Christ in the center of the logo)......it symbolized the church epistles, the gift ministries.....and thus, wierwille's corps program (cough, cough). IMO......it highlighted wierwille in all his arrogant glory. It displaced Christ and elevated wierwille's "disciples-in-the-making".......duly noted as corps grads. YET.....where were those illustrious apostles? prophets? evangelists? pastors? and teachers?........who graduated from the corps program? This logo was changed in 1980 or thereabouts.......and yet, no one ever breathed the spiritual air that wierwille did. NONE. To even voice it out loud was blasphemous........in cult world. Some of the zealots really thought that wierwille was gifted with all five ministries......he WAS an apostle, prophet, etc. After all, he was "the man of gawd" for the whole world. Splash the marketing around.........and the cult reinvents itself, over and over again. Twi Manipulation by Inference

You didn't confuse me. I get why you'd be sad that we aren't biting on your bait hook. But I (and others) explained what the problems is/are. Bottom line is that you came here hoping to proselytize but nobody seems to be interested. You set forth your thing... if any one reads it and gets interested, I suppose they can get in touch with Blake. But that's really not the purpose of the Greasespot Cafe. We already escaped a spiritually abusive cult. You shouldn't be surprised that people here aren't interested in another one.

Absolutely! The music was so catchy, I can still hear it. I don't have a copy of the VHS anymore (or the coloring book), but would love to pop it in. SO MUCH SPANDEX AND HOMOEROTIC OVERTONES!!!

So TZaia, is it really that hard for folks to look beyond themselves and not see something "possibly" new in the word. What I find exciting in this new age of immediate access is the access to Biblical research and so much "old" stuff is available; I do think that the REV has opportunity to open doors into understanding the Bible. Some of it in the REV is very controversial and I want to hear from folks who are in the same hunt as I and are willing to read those portions of the REV commentary and give a comment of their own. My thought on this, to make the inquirey in the GSC, was that I would entertain the comments of learned folks, i.e., old corp, etc. Now I see, that there is opposition to any reaserchest who had roots in TWI so I must take all of that into account. So, for all readers, if you have a bias against a researchest, can you make an unbiased comment?