Jump to content
GreaseSpot Cafe

Leaderboard

Popular Content

Showing content with the highest reputation since 02/28/2024 in Posts

  1. Hi Greasespotters, The International Cultic Studies Association (I'm affiliated with them) sent this announcement today about a new series beginning March 28, 2024. New Docuseries "Cult Justice" Premiers on Hulu, March 28, 2024 (networkforgood.com) Cheers! Charlene Edge, author of Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. https://charleneedge.com
    2 points
  2. In twi, things like that went on because vpw wanted it (as long as he was in charge), since he'd set up twi to have the Head Cheese wield autocratic power without checks or balances. (The same, obviously, applies to his successors, who also enjoy power limited only by the now-pitiful reach of twi.) So, vpw wanted it. The question then becomes....why did vpw want it? vpw was all about power- the wielding of power, and the appearance of prestige and influence. (It's why he got his doctorate at a degree mill and then INSISTED on being called "Doctor." I'm three times the fake doctor he was, and you don't see me insisting on "doctor.") So, some of it was to try to make twi seem influential, which made vpw seem influential. Another part of it was something different. Other than vpw's abilities to con people, he was actually pretty stupid. He always cut corners on his education, and never learned if he could plagiarize instead, and tried not to bother with anything else. When it came to other types of con, vpw fell for them. If you had a fake supernatural con, vpw would swallow it and teach the Advanced Class it was real and NOT a sleight-of-hand trick. (I believe there's real stuff, but it's a lot rarer than the cons, and conflating the two is wrong no matter what.) One of vpw's sources for conning was the John Birch Society, a bunch of tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists. He had a hotline to all their pet weird ideas. He would listen to them, then announce all of their stuff and pretend he was getting Divine Revelation about all of it. Rock and roll being of the devil? Yeah, the JBS and all their cronies. So, if the JBS endorsed candidates, vpw went along and endorsed them also. Stupid of him? Yes. It makes about as much sense as a news-anchor reading ANYTHING off the teleprompter, even if it made no sense or was inappropriate. But the same thing in the sense that it was mindless parroting of something from someone else. twi was actually pretty effective at teaching all sorts of people to do mindless parroting of all sorts of things. Society has LOTS of people who do that, but twi made a policy of it, and we're here discussing them, of course.
    2 points
  3. I thought some of you might enjoy this lovely choral music. My choir is singing this piece (and others) at our concert in late March (the main piece is Faure Requiem). I find it hard to get this out of my head. The accompanying video is lots of shots inside various English cathedrals, some of which, or some parts of which, date back around 1000 years. Those with an architectural eye will notice a wide variety of building styles.
    2 points
  4. “…question of whether Murica should adopt 'multi party' elections....Please Don't...it has been the bane of democracy here in Australia and New Zealand...Imagine a 'crooked' party doing backroom deals with an equally crooked party to get majority coalition. It's corrupt over there NOW without giving the regime in charge even more tools to weaponize.” This is not difficult to imagine at all. To presume this isn’t already going on is, well, presumptuous and a failure of imagination. And we already have multi-party elections.
    1 point
  5. vpw always inflated the importance of any public figure- in order to claim twi was significant because it contained vip's. So, ONE NFL player and vpw went crazy. One COACH for tennis and even lcm dropped her name. So, small wonder vpw wanted in when someone ostensibly IN twi was running for public office. No, it did not go well for or with H@yes G@h@g@n of Maine. https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/22444-hayes-gahagan/#comment-527243
    1 point
  6. TWI made an attempt to inject its influence into a political campaign in Maine in the late 1970s or early 1980s. It didn't go well.
    1 point
  7. My work on GSC is complete. Thank you for giving me a place to vent and I wouldnt be where I am now if it wasnt for my time here. Some of you if not all may think im crazy. I was crazy and this isnt the same. I thought I was crazy in the beginning too...its fine. https://www.eyesupandopen.org/index.php/articles-from-various-authors/my-testimony-expanded-version
    1 point
  8. All I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Well also, HOW WONDEFUL IN MANY MANY WAYS!!!!!!!!!!! VERY BEST TO YOU AND YOURS UNTIL... WE ALL MEET AGAIN!!
    1 point
  9. Thanks all! I really appreciate the kind words.
    1 point
  10. Thank you OldSkool for all your contributions here. Many blessings to you and may the Lord continue to shine His face upon you.
    1 point
  11. Nobody thinks you're crazy - at least not any crazier than some of us here have been! It's great when we all get back to some sort of "normality." Very best wishes for your future. You will be missed here. Do feel free to look in and see us occasionally.
    1 point
  12. Thank you OldSkool for the powerful testimony of Jesus' presence (as opposed to absence) in your life.
    1 point
  13. Gaslighting is among the most devastating darts in the thief’s quiver. Manipulation by gaslighting steals, kills and destroys sanity. (I shudder to consider the abject wickedness you endured… to blame a father’s “believing” for the physical condition with which his precious child is born… no words, only vomit…) The insanity persists only until that moment of clarity, that awakening, which you have had. I don’t think you are crazy at all. I am grateful for all the insight and facts you have recorded here. And for the laughs. Thank you, OldSkool.
    1 point
  14. Congratulations to you and your family. That’s awesome news. Godspeed brother and drop me a note from time to time. Thanks for your testimony about departing from false doctrine and making Jesus Lord again. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Body
    1 point
  15. I don't think you're crazy. Then again, I don't think it's a problem if SOMEBODY thinks you are, only if EVERYONE thinks you are. If your journey moves you on from here on out, well, farewell until we meet again... maybe that will be soon, who knows?
    1 point
  16. God bless you OldSkool. I wish you prosperity in your heart and soul and family relationships. I also hope you never fret about whether anyone thinks you're crazy. We all have stories. I can see a long life and many adventurous stories for you in the years to come.
    1 point
  17. God speed and God continue to bless you!
    1 point
  18. You've found me smiling, friend.
    1 point
  19. To your point about consensus, I think the scholarly consensus these days is Moses did not exist as a historical figure. The opposite position was consensus not too long ago.
    1 point
  20. Trying to refrain from replying until I have time, but thank you cman for posting that wikipedia link, which neatly sums up most of the "evidence" mythicists need to overcome to be taken seriously. Some of that is easy. Some of it, not so much. The expert consensus is the easiest argument to overcome because in this field, the expert consensus is ludicrously biased in favor of tradition. When I hear about the consensus of experts, I tend to expect overwhelming evidence in favor of that consensus, not overwhelming excuses about why we shouldn't expect to find evidence even though, no, seriously, we should. The notion that we would have to reject other historical figures if we held Jesus to a more rigorous standard is also incorrect. I would submit that such claims would be refuted by asking for an example, one example, of a historical figure whose existence is taken for granted but for whom LESS evidence exists than for Jesus. You won't find one. What you'll find instead is a Jesus that has more in common with Robin Hood and King Arthur than with Nathan Hale and Alexander Hamilton. Amyway more later
    1 point
  21. Old Ones will enjoy this as well..
    1 point
  22. I'll take a pass on that.
    1 point
  23. Here is what REALLY happened.
    1 point
  24. Also checking into several resources in the Reddit link- Daniella Young's book, and a really good article! So appreciate these!
    1 point
  25. Thank you for articulating these things!!!
    1 point
  26. That's it in a nutshell.
    1 point
  27. How can I not be deceived by other cults? I don’t want to join another one. https://www.reddit.com/r/cults/s/Mh6incJZ98 Reddit thread on this question. Some insightful commentary. For me it was partially self delusion. I traded free will and compliance for an emotional sense of security, belonging, and purpose. All those 3 tangible benefits were 100 percent delusional and false. There is no security and belonging in a high control environment where questioning or presenting a different opinion results in shunning. Obviously there is tangible negative emotional impact with shunning. And any purpose was masked with the true hidden purpose of elevating certain individuals in stature and position. There are emotional lies that people buy into and trade their freedom for.
    1 point
  28. Heck. Does anybody care about this deluded fellow? Honestly, the best thing that he can do is to join a good church that really works with disadvantaged people, then "get his hands dirty" learning to serve others. Before he does that, however, he needs to acquire a large roll of duct tape, zip his lips, and just watch and learn. Nothing that comes out of his mouth will be helpful.
    1 point
  29. Hey mod, With all of those quote sentences do you think you could make a form out of them with checkboxes? This way we could easily select one or multiple of them that is most appropriate to the convo?
    1 point
  30. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/q202RXmiNV So they are starting out younger and younger targeting the kids. Here’s the Mormons with a Stake President writing letters to 11 year olds. The next generation is where the cult interest is.
    1 point
  31. "Ruby Tuesday" from Between The Buttons, which, in my opinion, may be one of the Stones finest albums. (I lost interest in the band after the passing of Brian Jones.)
    1 point
  32. Awe and wonder seem like synonyms. I prefer wonder, because it triggers a more personal and childlike picture to me. It's also like when I'm driving on a country road, come around a corner and something I see captures me by surprise. When it comes to God and me, I want wonder!
    1 point
  33. the topic nazi .... lol like the soup nazi, ya know I have been on topic, very much so.... my attorney is Jesus Christ
    1 point
  34. Looking at some writings by Aristotle, I came across a method for rhetorical analysis of writings, speeches, texts, etc. https://www.scribbr.com/academic-essay/rhetorical-analysis/ Since we are analyzing the Bible and various other works I thought it might be interesting to introduce this angle of analysis. It leads to such questions as what is the logical appeal? Emotional appeal? Or appeal to authority? This might be also helpful in an analytic discussion.
    1 point
  35. Thank you for posting that beautiful visual and auditory feast of awe. Today's new (to me) book, is AWE: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How it Can Transform Your Life. There were times in my young adulthood (50 or so years ago) and during my early life in twi, when I experienced everyday wonder. Of course, at that time, I attributed it all to God, as defined by Victor Wierwille. Anyway, in this book, I am encouraged to look for, seek out, awe in my everyday life. Beauty in cultural expression is one place to find it. I was touched with a sense of awe listening to that choir. No doubt, you and your fellow choir members singing that beautiful piece with a deep sense of love and awe will touch all of those who get to hear you.
    1 point
  36. NYTimes has this (apparently a gift article, because I could read it even though I don't subscribe to NYT) This report doesn't spell out Community of Jesus as a cult, but it seems to examine well, the young Mr Bushnell's mental approach. He rejected a good bit of his cult upbringing. He went to mental health therapy and encouraged a female friend with whom he apparently grew up to do the same. He had deep empathetic tendencies (which is a good thing). He WILL not immediately be forgotten, as this kind of sacrifice does get cited in news stories after the fact. My heart aches for him as I envision the ongoing good he could do by choosing to survive. Various aspects of growing up in a cult are apparent for those with experience to recognize it. Notably for me, that he was apparently neither taught nor had modeled for him by elders ways to cope with difficult ethical and moral dilemmas.
    1 point
  37. Not that I expect anyone to listen to four hours of debate, but I did want to demonstrate that the subject matter warrants more than a dismissive reference to Melville.
    1 point
  38. I wish we could discuss politics here, respectfully. I'd even pay a monthly fee! LOL
    1 point
  39. Notable indeed... especially to us, because we were familiar with this particular cult. I wonder if any academics have compiled credible data about the scope, time, and lack of meaningful accountability. I'd sure be interested in delving into such data. Btw, according to a WaPo story, the Air Force E-4 (who self-immolated on Sunday) had been a part of a: "But how a young man who liked The Lord of the Rings and karaoke became the man ablaze in a camouflage military uniform remains a mystery, even among some of his closest friends. "Bushnell was raised in a religious compound in Orleans, Mass., on Cape Cod, according to Susan Wilkins, 59, who said she was a member of the group from 1970 to 2005. She said that she knew Bushnell and his family on the compound and that he was still a member when she left. Wilkins said she heard through members of Bushnell’s family that he eventually left the group. "Wilkins’s account is consistent with those of multiple others who said Bushnell had told them about his childhood in the religious group or who had heard about his affiliation from his family members. "The group, called the Community of Jesus, has faced allegations of inappropriate behavior, which it has publicly disputed. In a lawsuit against an Ontario school, where many officials were alleged to be members of the U.S.-based religious group, former students called the Community of Jesus a “charismatic sect” and alleged that it “created an environment of control, intimidation and humiliation that fostered and inflicted enduring harms on its students.” Multiple people who said they were former members of the Community of Jesus described their years after leaving the compound as particularly challenging. They said former members, soon after they depart the group, often long for a sense of belonging. “A lot of us that got out are very much into social justice, trying to defend those who don’t or can’t defend themselves, because that is what we went through,” said Bonnie Zampino, 54, who said she was a member of the group for three years in the 1980s. "Wilkins also said it is common for members of the Community of Jesus to join the military, describing the transition as moving from “one high-control group to another high-control group.”" Emphasis mine. Also, the link to their website was mine, and very easy to find. I figure we'll learn more about SrAirman Bushnell in the days to come. However, high-control group is a significant indicator of cults, according to Steven Hassan. There's no indication thus far that Bushnell's decision was based on anything other than his own personal conviction about the war. But it seems obvious he was locked into a cultish mindset. Very sad and tragic, especially for his family. Btw, he apparently was only 25. Meaning Ms. Wilkins would have only known him as a small child.
    1 point
  40. Yes it fits right in with Bible accounts like the twelve meeting the seventy where they said “we own the trademark on everything you’re doing” and called them “swagger jackers”.
    1 point
  41. On the nostalgia bias front I see that the BODolts have paid money to patent the term “Word Over the World”. Tm. Your ABS at work. Now if they could only patent the term “world peace” then they could collect a lot of money at every Miss America contest. All u other WOWs are cheap imitators lol.
    1 point
  42. So, vpw did teach others. So, if the first part of the alleged 1942 Promise was correct, then it was completed, like a contract, with both parties delivering what they were supposed to. But, did vpw teach "God's Word like it hadn't been known since the 1st century"? No. First, nearly 100% of everything he taught has been traced to other Christian writers or teachers whom he plagiarized. So, each of his teachings was on something as someone knew in the 20th century already. Was that a made-up promise, or was it the promise of a being so uninformed it didn't know people were already teaching the Bible and writing about it? Or was it a lying spirit that promised this? The possibilities vpw was listening to a lying spirit or a stupid god are even worse than vpw just lying and plagiarizing. Second, what was "God's Word as it was known in the 1st century"? Nothing like twi! People knew God's Word by experience and in power. The written texts studied ad nauseum in twi were largely UNKNOWN in the 1st century. People read the Torah, taught, prayed, healed, and saw miracles. The selling points of Christianity were results, not clever men at pulpits teaching a new Greek word or making a bad joke. Christians were decentralized, Christians had no head honcho on the Earth, Christians had no codified "Statements of Belief." Christians weren't tithing. Christians weren't buying books or paying money for classes. In short, the 1st century Christians did NOT resemble vpw's claims or twi in any way other than vpw CLAIMING they were the same. Talk is cheap, and the reality was VERY different. If you want to see something of the 1st century in vpw's work, review the "ministry" of Simon the sorcerer.
    1 point
  43. "God did not speak to Victor Paul Wierwille and give him divine instruction for all mankind that he would teach “the Word” like it hasn’t been known since the first century. That is a lie from a book they no longer claim and a lie that is not in the man’s biography written by his spouse. " In case someone particularly nostalgic- who doesn't know any better- has just arrived, read that, and said aloud "Oh, yeah? Prove it!", I'm going to reply. First of all, the Burden of Proof is on the person who insists on the existence of something, the one who says "this is true." In this case, that means the burden of proof is on the one who claims that the alleged 1942 promise was true. So, they are asking the wrong question to begin with. However, I'm not done. In many cases, where some claim has been made, we can look things over and confirm or dismiss them. Let's look at the claim. vpw claimed that God Almighty spoke to vpw himself and said that He (God) would teach him (vpw) God's Word as it hadn't been known since the First Century if he (vpw) would teach it (God's Word) to others. Further, vpw insisted that he demanded God prove this by making it snow. A moment later, he was in a complete snowstorm and could see nothing out the window. First of all, the claim in taped pfal was that vpw had dedicated his life to God's Word. Nobody heard this 1942 Promise until much further into twi. Second of all, his own WIFE heard nothing about this in 1942. She wrote that he first told this to the early corps- so the first words out of his mouth that day to here weren't "Honey, something amazing happened today and I have to tell you about it..." (I've heard claims that Mrs W was wrong and people heard of it in the mid-1960s. Even if true, it doesn't change him saying NOTHING to his wife when is ALLEGEDLY happened. Third of all, vpw's claim CHANGED. When he first made the claim, the sky filled with snow was "BLACK" with snow. Later, he claimed he was in a white-out (my phrasing), where the sky was all white. If the man had a genuine experience with God, he would remember if the sky suddenly turned all-WHITE or all-BLACK, because even the legally blind can tell the difference between an all-white and an all-black sky. However, if vpw was making this up, and later heard that an all-snow sky is all white, he would change his story. If he was repeating a miraculous occurrence, he would have added comments. "I know the sky SHOULD have looked all white, but there it was- all BLACK outside my window in the middle of the day..." This change reflected someone trying to convince people of a story he was making up and fine-tuning as he heard objections. Fourth, all weather reports of the day show no snow anywhere in the state. He never claimed it was a VISION of snow, but real snow. However, let us continue AS IF he claimed it was a VISION of snow. Then the rest of his claims should be examined for all their faults.
    1 point
  44. Happy New Year spotters! I am bumping this thread for all those who may still be stuck in TWI nostalgia bias. Perhaps you like me have seen a recent depiction of the “Jesus Revolution” with all of the social happenings in the 60s and 70s that preceded the Way Ministry and other groups like Calvary Chapel and all of the tales about the groovy Christians of Rye NY or the Life magazine articles or the House of Acts in SF California. Seeing all of that I was reminded of the motivation I had in my youth to seek out grassroots truth in the form of spiritual wisdom from the Bible and Christian fellowship. As I pursued that as a primary goal in life, got married, had kids, and worked out how to live as a Christian man father and husband I ran into direct conflict with the cult I was in, The Way International, and what the Bible taught about Christian life, marriage, family, careers, debt, and many other major categories of life where they were stepping beyond scriptural boundaries and into areas of life in the nunya category. Nunya d@mn bidness. I also witnessed several leadership couples where the Way broke up their marriage, convinced them they had major spiritual problems and forced them back into their training program again. And I witnessed the Way performing libelous acts talking about these people to their congregations and acting well beyond any authority reasonable for a church group. I witnessed any attempt to restore equal balance met by excommunication. So the times I could be swayed by nostalgia and the idea of a large church with many friends (they were fake) I recollect the doctrinal and practical manipulation of these people and others who have published their accounts, and I thank God on my knees that I am no longer subservient to little Napoleons and their Machiavellian imaginations and their evil acts against those in their own house. I thank God for freedom, like the freedom that the concept of the United States of America can bring when people aren’t being political moral midgets, like the freedom that emancipation can bring and has brought to minorities, like the freedom to worship God without any sense of lack of worth that another man or woman tries to introduce. There is a time for nostalgia. I can break out an old vinyl album I replaced and go back to my roots, to a simpler time filled with faith without manipulation, to a time of infinite possibility. But I have zero nostalgia of being under the authority of moral midgets and performing rote roles of service to magnify others and their egos. I will not sacrifice my future and family’s future to run a church for a group too cheap to build one in my house and try and hype a new lie which is the same old lie. God did not speak to Victor Paul Wierwille and give him divine instruction for all mankind that he would teach “the Word” like it hasn’t been known since the first century. That is a lie from a book they no longer claim and a lie that is not in the man’s biography written by his spouse. Freedom > Nostalgia
    1 point
  45. I was looking at the statement of beliefs on twi's website and at the bottom it says, For the Glory of God and the Accuracy of His Word For Those Who Want to Know Obviously, the first line is not true since they continue to teach the Word "according to vp," who according to their fictional description of the founder writes, "For over forty years, Dr. Wierwille devoted his major energies to intensive research and teaching of the accuracy of God’s Word." (Makes you wonder what his "minor" energies went into .) It's the second line, "For Those Who Want to Know." To me, it strongly suggests exclusivity which we know they were famous for under the first 3 presidents. Why not declare, "For all who want to know;" better yet, why have a second line at all? Is it trying to compliment people into taking pfalt? If so, it reminds me of The National Enquirer's slogan, "Enquiring minds want to know." Whatever their reason, it does not sound like unconditional love.
    1 point
  46. I recall VPW saying something to the affect that the bible was not written for unbelievers, agnostics, or god rejectors. Assuming no one is born with a knowledge of god, then somewhere during their development, they decided to believe in a god or gods. I was in that boat myself. Being born into a Catholic family, religion was crammed down my throat from a very young age. I hated all the rules of having to eat this, pray in a certain position, recognize certain days, confess my sins to a man behind a screen, blah, blah, blah. So I decided to reject it but still held the belief there was a god. Sometime later, as I was eating lunch in a resturant, a guy sat next to me and began to tell me about a god that was completely different than the Catholic god. This random meeting began a 20 sum year association with TWI. At first TWI filled me with peace and tranquility, but then realized they too had crazy rules that must be obeyed. And not adhering to them would force god to remove his hedge of protection from me. So I checked other religions out, but found they all had some hook, that when swallowed, forced me to recognize some aspect of god that made no sense. This got me to reason that if each religion had completely different requirements to satisfy god, which one was right? Then I threw in different faiths, which didn’t even worship the same god, and scratched my head in confusion. Then I came to the conclusion that none had any idea of what they were talking about, as there are thousands of different Christian religions alone, not including all the other faiths. Which one worships the one true god? Impossible to determine. So my logical conclusion was there is no god. I had attempted to reason through mounds of different dogmas to find god, but all it all brought was confusion. Now my mind is cleared. I do not have to choose one god over the other. Peace and tranquility.
    1 point
  47. George, maybe it's becaue Mrs. W. couldn't "work" for the Way anymore. Which begs the question, just what does an 8 hour day of Harvey's "work" consist of? What do ANY of them do for "work"? I've been thinking of a quote of Frank Zappa's lately, and reading H.P.'s letter brought it back again. Zappa was being interviewed years ago in Musician magazine, I think it was. In case anyone's not familiar with him, he was a musician, guitarist, composer and depending on who you read he was a hack, a genius, a tad eccentric, whatever...figure anyone who names his kids Dweezil, Amhet and Moon Unit has some issues at the very least. Anyway...he always had some interesting things to say about the music industry. The interviewer was asking him about his tendency to be negative about the music industry as a whole, and he asked Zappa if he deliberately tried to sand bag his own efforts by knocking it all the time. Zappa answered "It's not my job to kiss their a$$". Next question was: "Don't you think you've grown more cynical over the years?" Answer: "No, I just keep getting more evidence to back up my original cynicism". Classic. practice makes perfect sense when it comes to love... (Michael Franks)
    1 point
×
×
  • Create New...