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As a grad of the 2nd Way Corps, I thought I'd pipe up and say a few words. It's no secret that I've rejected associating with The Way and have left its teachings in my rearview mirror. Nevertheless here's my opinion about what Vern should consider doing as the new Way president (although I'm not convinced he'll ever read this). Consider this, Vern: Many former Way Corps besides me have realized from personal experience that there is no "accuracy of The Word" that exists for anyone to "return to." In light of that, I ask: What is the purpose of The Way? This is just my opinion, but since The Way's "bedrock of biblical research" has been found to be full of holes, plagiarism, and Scriptural abuse, doesn't that sinking ship make the organization of The Way without a purpose? If I were Vern, as far as the organization goes, I'd disband it.

There is a small number of survivors still alive, and some have written books. Others have died in the last decade or two. There's talk of 6 million people of Jewish extraction. There are also millions more of other groups: gypsies, darker skinned people, homosexuals, disabled people - and intellectuals. Some estimate these others at about 4 million; they're often completely overlooked. Even now, the true numbers murdered by the regime are unknown. For this reason, I'm very alarmed when any bunch of people start demonizing any other group. It starts somewhere. Let's demonize ... hmm, Muslims. Yeah, they look different. Let's focus blame for all our problems on them, they're different. NO!!!!! Some are bad people and/or extremists. Most are not. Deal with the hate, inequality, privilege, issues. (I won't say any more, or this could become too political, and my intent is not that but to get people to examine their own prejudices.)

Just finished reading the book. it was very easy to follow with a linear one dimensional storyline as well as it should be - a straightforward recounting of subjective events as they happened to one person. There was some, but not much, introspection during the telling of the tale because, for the most part, it wasn't neccessary; but rather the telling of the struggles for survival and mere existence. It's a tale that can only be fully understood by those who endured the horrors, but it's a tale we as humans should take heed. Reviewing the flow of this thread is a good reminder for me of how easy it is for me to become sidetracked by the minutiae of some extraneous detail or detours. The topic was not about the denial of facts but of the horrors of human cruelty. Rather than chasing some of the tangential comments, I should have stuck to Rocky's stated intent, for that I apologize. The book is a reminder that each individual has an important story to tell and that each story is as valid anyone elses, provided it is retold and understood from the viewpoint and perspective of the teller. It may not be accurate according to the actual facts, but the subjective opinions cannot be dismissed. It would be interesting to read an account from a guard's perspective of events as they happened. I'm sure most thought they were on the correct side and that they were advancing their cause for noble intentions. Hindsight has disputed that concept, but it's to easy to dismiss and be disgusted by their actions without understanding their motivations and thought processes.

We know a loaded question from an "innocent" one.

"Twinky said..."? No, no, no, no, no! Vern said! And Twinky says: "Yeah, riiiight...!" "Cease to be part of the problem"??? (They are the problem!") Be teachable"? (Don't make me laugh!) "See us and know we are His" (see us and run a mile, more like). Since TWI's own MO since its beginning was to be contentious, and thereby to be ... "dividing the body of Christ" I don't seen how things are going to change. What's your position statement, Vern? And where are your efforts to (re)join as "members of Christ’s Body" and fellowship with actual Christians, and even (ha!) to do as Christ commanded - to love God AND to love fellow human beings? And Vern, do remember that other human beings IS NOT limited to other Wayfers. God pours his blessings on the rich and the poor, the believers and the unbelievers. He loves us all (TWI forgets that) and doesn't wish anyone to perish. Sorry, so far, I'm not convinced. But if you're serious, you're welcome to come along to my church and see how we do things, and find out what real Christian community is about.

Play nice, people. Everyone.

Vicomte de Valvert: Monsieur, your nose... your nose is rather large. Cyrano de Bergerac: Rather? Vicomte de Valvert: Oh, well... Cyrano de Bergerac: Is that all? Vicomte de Valvert: Well of course... Cyrano de Bergerac: Oh, no, young sir. You are too simple. Why, you might have said a great many things. Why waste your opportunity? For example, thus: AGGRESSIVE: I, sir, if that nose were mine, I'd have it amputated on the spot. PRACTICAL: How do you drink with such a nose? You must have had a cup made especially. DESCRIPTIVE: 'Tis a rock, a crag, a cape! A cape? Say rather, a peninsula! INQUISITIVE: What is that receptacle? A razor case or a portfolio? KINDLY: Ah, do you love the little birds so much that when they come to see you, you give them this to perch on. CAUTIOUS: Take care! A weight like that might make you top-heavy. ELOQUENT: When it blows, the typhoon howls, and the clouds darken! DRAMATIC: When it bleeds, the Red Sea. SIMPLE: When do they unveil the monument? MILITARY: Beware, a secret weapon. ENTERPRISING: What a sign for some perfumer! RESPECTFUL: Sir, I recognize in you a man of parts. A man of... prominence! Or, LITERARY: Was this the nose that launched a thousand ships? These, my dear sir, are things you might have said, had you some tinge of letters or of wit to color your discourse. But wit? Not so, you never had an atom. And of letters, you need but three to write you down: A, S, S. foot! Vicomte de Valvert: Insolent puppy, dolt, bumpkin, fool! Cyrano de Bergerac: How do you do? And I, Cyrano Savinien Hercule de Bergerac.

It seems that we occasionally get posters who think they have some sort of inalienable rights to things they don't. Here's some friendly reminders. 1) The GSC is a private messageboard that is open to the public. The Admins and Mods determine the rules, and have final say on all disagreements. 2) You don't have any authority to overturn their decisions. You can make a logical case for something. If they disagree, you can either drop it or refuse. 3) Picking fights with staff results in warnings, deleted posts, deleted threads, and temporary or permanent bans. 4) If you don't like the way ANY board is run, you can just go elsewhere. There's other boards, and there's always the option to make your own. All of that is not unique to the GSC. All of that is pretty much standard and generally common sense. Remember that some speech anywhere will not be allowed, for any of a number of reasons. Some speech anywhere will be unpopular and the other posters will disagree and say so. You don't have any kind of "right" to have people agree with you. If you don't make your case, don't be surprised if you're alone on a position. ======================= "I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort-of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express." - xkcd

The Way International has a new president and Chairman of the Board: Vern Edwards. Unless Rosalie Rivenbark has installed some little "trip-wire" in twi's decision-making process......Vern Edwards, the new president, presides over the decisions and direction of The Way International going forward. At his discretion, he can convene a board meeting with Bill Greene and John Rupp to discuss and implement direction, mandates, guidelines and/or yearly themes that could change their stagnant trajectory. Clearly, it is well-documented from sources and disgruntled, exiting corps members that twi's classes, programs and sunday service attendance are all dismal. Thanks, Rosalie......ppffffttt. So, it doesn't take rocket-science brains to know that you, Vern, have a decision to make. You are at the crossroads of.......1) Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results [known commonly as insanity] or 2) Have the fortitude to make the hard decisions that challenge the status quo and everything that you've been doing the past 30 years that twi claimed were "doing the Word." No one reaches higher plateaus by following in the steps of losers. Do you follow "the footprints in the sand" of your lord and savior, Jesus Christ.....the mediator between God and man? Or, do you follow "the paved blacktop walkway of twi" that Rosalie mandated for 20 years during her reign.......where dull denominations and cults rule with heavy hand and manipulate the followers to their will? Imagine the possibilities of living a spiritual life......in all of its fullness. Walking in newness of life.......not in the spirit of the law, but in the spirit of FREEDOM. A life that is pleasing the lord......undoing the burdens of guilt, fear and shame. Healing the broken-hearted. Engaging with fellow-disciples in their time of fear and trepidation.......walking on storm-tossed seas. Breaking the chains that bind the soul of man. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Teach the One Body of Christ......wherein, Jesus is the head of that Body! Members in particular. Everyone is needed. Everyone is valued. Eliminate the top-down caste structure that wierwille implemented. Eliminate the two-tier system wherein corps rule over non-corps. Pray that the "scales fall from your eyes"........that you might see. Humble yourself before the Lord.......to see His Majestic Will. Stop deceiving yourself, Vern. There is no way that The Way International is on the right path. No way. No how. Many have documented the numbers that some 150 way corps exited The Way Ministry BEFORE that August 16, 2016 confrontation letter. Then, Rico Magnelli demanded Rosalie step down.....and he was given the bums-rush outta there. Months later, a swath of way corps undersigned that March 17, 2017 letter to the Board of Directors......and that went nowhere. Clearly, long-standing way corps laid out their grievances and demands in that letter and now, three years later......you are at the helm. How many new attendees are coming into the corps program this August/September? Five? Ten? The Way International is hemorrhaging more long-standing corps than it is adding to the ranks. How can that possibly be God's will? If the way corps are "God's crack troops" like wierwille often said.......how can THAT possibly be right? Less way corps is good? Obviously, there needs to be a true cleansing of the camp. True sanctification. Not just pithy-themed mandate, but a true repentance of heart!! The decision is yours, Vern. You are at the crossroads. You are the man at the helm. You are in charge of steering this ship. Where it will go and where it ends up is your doing. Hopefully, you make wiser decisions that your predecessor, Rosalie. In her 20-year tenure, you guys marched in circles and never advanced. In fact, it seems clear that by all measures except one, the dollars hoarded away.......Rosalie failed miserably. Choose wisely, Vern. If you follow the twi-grooming, then you too will fail. Start with repentance and present yourself humbly before the Lord. And, you'll need to summon His strength and courage if you're ever going to break the chains of the traditions of man .....especially, the chains that wierwille brought to the corps program. Break those chains!!! .

Rocky, I took no pleasure in reading “Night” but that’s not to say I don’t appreciate you recommending this book – it is something that I believe is necessary to read. In the bigger picture – some of which was discussed here - the sheer enormity of the Jews murdered…the brutality…the inhumanity…is nothing short of absolutely mind-boggling – and to be honest, when my mind is overwhelmed like that, I sometimes have to stop thinking about it for a while. But the book has a different and more profound effect. The story is told not from the panorama of the entire Holocaust – but from the perspective of just one 15 year old boy Elie Wiesel. At the start of the read, I had a bad habit of second-guessing or judging how he handled things mentally – so I had to intentionally set aside the comfortable zone of my perspective from a pleasant upbringing and carefree teenage experiences. I’m not saying I could then identify with Elie – but at least I stopped finding some fault in his reactions and thoughts. Maybe we all have a tendency to play Monday morning quarterback sometimes. The older I get and the more experiences I accumulate – I like to think I’d be able to handle some catastrophic event – but the bottom line is I just don’t know. Oddly enough, I did not want to take a break from the book, like I mentioned above when thinking of the immensity of the Holocaust. Maybe it was simply a thing of Elie’s simple straightforward compelling and engaging narrative of events and me wondering how much more could he take and how he would handle it that so held my interest. From the book a few things stick out to me: Things held dear – family, faith, dignity, belongings…a gold crown tooth or just the shoes on his feet…even life itself – were upended and devastated…Elie seeing children and babies thrown into the crematorium (I cannot erase that scene from my mind)… The disparity of human behavior – Elie seeing their tough and cruel guards engage in a friendly interaction with some local German girls as they marched the prisoners through the streets to a labor camp…They were forced to look upon other prisoners being hanged for some infraction. While seeing a young child hanged – someone behind Elie asked “where is God?” and Elie replied “there – hanging on the gallows”…At one camp, crammed into very small barracks it was literally people piled on top of one another – some suffocating under the blanket of bodies, dying overnight – Elie digging his nails into unknown faces to move them for an airway – that’s got to be one of the creepiest things that really got to me…another time laying silently in an upper bunk while an SS officer brutally beat his father in the bunk below – fearing he would also get beaten – even when his dying dad called out his name he would not answer – if that was me hearing my dad’s last word of calling out my name - that would haunt me for the rest of my life. Tonto and I went to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C. in 2002 – and that was certainly a somber and sacred experience. Reading “Night” was certainly like that but also felt more emotionally immersive - one person’s story is truly a powerful thing.

If Allan's question was really as innocent as he claimed, he would have just stopped here, when T-Bpne answered him. Allan's question was- where did 6 million Jews come from if there were less than a million in Nazi Germany? T-Bone quoted Wikipedia- ALL OVER EUROPE. Germany rolled into Austria, Poland, France...... Seriously, it's EASY to study history online, if one actually cares.

I totally agree with this sentiment. The thing is, though, over the years it's been talked about here on GSC until the cows came home and left again. Almost any conversation you might find interesting has been preserved in the threads that WW was kind enough to provide links to. Discussing it again is like proving the Pythagorean Theorem over and over and over again before you set out on a math project. Anyhow, the original subject, if I understand correctly, was a discussion of the referenced book. This has devolved into a meta discussion.

Are we back to Holocaust denialism? I thought we dispatched with that ahistorical anti-truth nonsense back in the early-aughts. 6 million Jews were exterminated by the Nazi regime during the Holocaust. This is a matter of fact not subject to debate.

I think you might be comparing apples to oranges – your example with the stop sign assumes I see the approaching speedy car and that I assess it is exceeding the posted speed limit and it does not look like it's slowing down for the stop sign – in that simple scenario I agree with you, it would be foolish on my part to ignore such risk factors from my perspective and judgement. There’s a lot more to understanding the Holocaust - since it involves many perspectives and how people evaluated things, and how involved others may want to get in keeping something bad from happening (speaking in reference to the international community - which I'll get into below) - so I don’t think your simple example is appropriate – but your statement “if you can see something bad is going to happen, it is in your best interest to avoid it” got me thinking of the bigger picture – and in general, ask “what were the warning signs and were they ignored?” I found this on - U.S. Holocaust Museum - “While warning signs are undoubtedly clearer in hindsight, reflecting on the events of 1938 challenges us to consider what might motivate us to respond to indicators of genocide today. History teaches us that genocide can be prevented if people care enough to act. Our choices in response to hatred truly do matter, and together we can help fulfill the promise of “Never Again.”…this page also gives a timeline of some of the early warning signs like in March of 1938 “German troops enter Austria, which is incorporated into the German Reich…German authorities quickly implement anti-Jewish legislation that encourages an atmosphere of hostility toward the Jewish population.” And on - PBS – Why Jews didn’t leave Europe - Leon Botstein is a Swiss- American Jewish conductor and scholar in an interview discussed “why Jews didn’t leave Europe, particularly Germany, after Hitler came to power in 1933. “The Nazis were not as organized as the American film industry describes them,” he says. “In the breach, segregating the Jewish population was the first order of business.” Indeed, Hitler even ordered that Jewish classical musicians be fired from their groups in the early months of 1933. However, says Botstein, most German Jews didn’t question that they would live and die in Germany. They thought Hitler was temporary or that he was so extreme that there would be a reaction against him. “There was always two Germanys,” Botstein cites, “There was the Germany of high culture…and the Germany of the beer hall and…of blood-and-soil nationalism, which eventually triumphed. Anti-Semitism or even radical anti-Semitism wasn’t a surprise to Germans at the time, even after Kristallnacht (Night of Broken Glass in 1938) and the outbreak of World War II in 1939, according to Botstein. “People knew things would be terrible, but no one imagined to what extent,” says Botstein.” There might have been many who thought something bad was going to happen – but as Botstein said maybe they couldn’t foresee how bad it would be or thought it might just be something short-term . And there’s another thing to consider about the early warning signs – the lack of response from the international community – in July of 1938 – “Intensified persecution in Germany led more Jews to try to emigrate, which required a nation to allow them to enter. In response to increased refugee demand, US President Franklin D. Roosevelt convened a conference in Evian, France. There, representatives from 32 nations discussed their immigration policies. Delegate after delegate expressed sympathy for the refugees, but most countries, including the United States, refused to alter their immigration policies to admit more of them. Only the Dominican Republic agreed to accept a large number of additional refugees.” (this quote is also from above link to US Holocaust Memorial Museum ). There's a lot more to this topic - I'm just offering up a couple of examples of why I don't think the simple stop sign/avoiding risk analogy is applicable. By the way, the time-frame of Wiesel’s book is when the Holocaust was already in high gear (his original manuscript was completed in 1954). Rocky, sorry this wasn’t a discussion of the book – but I thought these few historical details gave some background to Wiesel’s dire situation...I’ve never experienced such hopelessness and utter cruelty – so it’s hard for me to relate to his story – maybe that’s why Moishe had difficulty finding people who would listen to his warnings (even Wiesel says he did not believe him) – until they experienced it for themselves.

you present a false dilemma to further your opinion.

And go and visit some of the cities in Europe that were emptied of their Jewish populations. See where they were forced to live, work. See the lists of names in the remains of synagogues; and the records in other locations.

That's the general consensus from threads here on the subject. There was one or two people who initially gave them the benefit of the doubt, but for the most part, it was viewed as pretty much ssdd as twi.

What these dip s——-s don’t understand is we that have left have marked and avoided them!

"Probably?" a recognizable face? For you, a VERY recognizable face, with a VERY recognizable voice. (AFAIK.)

I wonder if she received a lovely twenty year paperweight for her desk? I'm sure there were many accolades of her for so many years of faithful service and how thankful everyone in way world is for her life. Of course this was said with extreme sarcasm.

So I have a medical condition that precludes seeds, nuts, raw grains. Does that mean I'm eating devil's food? As Bugs Bunny would say "what a maroon!"

This is not surprising. At age 80.....I would imagine that Rosalie is tired, truly tired, of keeping up daily pretenses. And, looking in her mirror.....it was time to face the reality that her aged body is not camera-ready without a lot of constant work. The daily grind of details.....who quit, who exited, and who is going to go in and do damage control. Hundreds of corps have exited since 2005. And, that 2017 exodus took a swath of "big-names" (moynihans, forts, horneys, magnellis, fredericks, etc.) many who'd been involved since the early 70s. Even for Rosa-lie.....that had to be depressing. Could it be that this last *patch it up before leaving* was Rosa-lie's attempt to save a smidgeon of her legacy? Yeah, a legacy of destruction. No matter. Life moves on......and the new guys who've been groomed in way-religion will "follow the yellow brick road." They heard Wierwille was a whiz of a wiz.....if ever a wiz there was! After martindale was ousted, Rosa-lie made sure wierwille regained his mog-title, in full. When all is said and done......I think that Rosa-lie was holding out for that 20-year badge of honor. She held the presidency for 20 years.....after martindale was kicked out for sexual predation (public confession in April 2000 of a "one-time affair" with Ms. Allen). Thus, Rosa-lie held the throne from April 2000 - June 2020. She had to clean up that unfortunate mishap with choosing Jean-Yves to run things. But now.....she can claim to have held the post for 20 years as she holds onto this legend in her own mind. So now, Rosalie will sit in an emeritus seat alongside Howard (the Duck) and Wanda. What grand company the emeritus group is..... LOL There will be no change.....just a reshuffling of the deck chairs. .

That right there, had I known at the time, could have sent me running for the hills away from twi. It's barbaric to cook/serve food without garlic or onions. Absolutely barbaric.

It always made me chuckle when I sat at or near Ralph Dubofsky's table at lunch in the HQ dining hall during my interim year of 1983-84. His wife at the time, Lori, always brought a bowl of raw, cut onions along with their children when she came for lunch. People who knew this made it a habit of sitting at their table so they could have onions on their salad.

If I’m not mistaken wierwille had a similar pet peeve about garlic…that’s too bad – considering all the natural benefits of garlic and onion – a natural antibiotic, a blood-cleanser, natural anti-fungal & antibacterial ( also see - Huff Post article )…I’ve had pneumonia a few times and have to watch out for some cold or flu virus I catch developing into bronchitis. Nowadays, it’s usually a trip to the doc if I have a lot of trouble getting over it; but in health battles of this nature I also always go with some old family remedy – eating garlic and onion – plain or in a salad or some meal…at the top of my first grocery list when the pandemic started was a bunch of garlic and onions.

Mr. Garden frequently cooks potatoes and onions together. The onions perfume the house. To me, it's the scent of a beloved man enjoying a meal. I was flabbergasted at the thought of every one lining up their taste buds with his. So not right!

The worst part was only the Head Table got coffee!

FIFY...................... Dear Faithful Sycophants of The Cult: God has nothing to do with our scam.....but it sure is a good lead in towards deception, ain't it? On the occasion of the Seventy-fifth Anniversary of The Way International, .....soon-to-be 60th Anniversary of our plagiarist cult [December 19, 1957----according to Mrs. W's historical accounting to be exact] we could care less about you and your families. Please keep sending in your money, though. Our hearts are filled with deceit and, even though some 30 Thousand have exited since our heyday in 1984......we still like our gravy train. Because of the plagiarist efforts started by our Founding President, Vic The Man, and his wife, Dorothea......we here at headquarters live a life of ease and sordid gluttony . Men, women, and children are still being taken in by our scam......but that damn GreaseSpot Café internet site is doing significant damage to alert others. Stay off the internet and tell all at your twigs that the internet is full of devil spirits. We encourage you to keep selling our classes and programs—it is making a difference! This cult gig is the greatest! We have so much time on our hands to dilly and dally around the shopping malls and restaurants here in Ohio. Heck, we've probably eaten at nearly every new place that's hit the market in the last ten years. And, we are thinking of heading back to the Bahamas, but need to check on that since those devil hurricanes went thru there. But, if we go.......we will send you another picture. Please pray for us constantly.........the devil is nipping at our heels. Feeding at the trough and lovin' it, Rosalie Rivenbark and Donna, my BFF Jean-Yves......my underling Billy Greene.....can you believe he's still around? Johnny Rupp......he believes what we tell him

Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be homos... I remember it, but don't think I have the words anywhere. I suspect that any copies of that song were burned with the lyrics to the "Wash my feet in the blood of the wicked".

Mamas dont let your babies grow up to be way corps... Don't let em be a-holes, or pretend they read greek let em be loving , and kind and meek Mama's don't let your babies grow up to be way corps 'cause they never do no good, they're always at meetings, looking for someone to fleece.... That one? didn't think so...