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Questions That Should Be Answered By R&R Leaders: Now that you guys are no longer with twi........are you, as described by wierwille, "cop-outs?" Do you think that you are possessed with *deceiving spirits* because you are not meek to twi's board of directors? If you are characteristically mislabeled (misjudged) and slandered......what about all other corps/clergy before you? Was wierwille using bully-tactics against others who "abandoned" his authoritarian rule? Since you've walked away from those who "taught you the Word"......have you lost all those rewards at the bema? Now that you are labeled "mark and avoid"......has your understanding of that term changed? Wierwille died of cancer.......do you still teach, as wierwille did, that cancer is a devil spirit? What about the "law of believing".......wasn't it misconstrued by cherry-picking scriptures? Let's address plagiarism. Wierwille stole B.G. Leonard's class and taught it as his own, didn't he? Books, articles, and sermons were "lifted" along the way....with hardly a mention to Stiles, Bullinger, or others? And, the "Red Thread" teaching was Rev. Oral Roberts "The Fourth Man" teaching......wierwille simply tweaked it, right? How about we talk about the *holy spirit field*..........if this was such a cornerstone of wierwille's ministry (cough, cough) why has it been neglected for the past 30 years? Who ever notes, in present-day reality......the demonstration of the spirit of word of knowledge, word of wisdom or discerning of spirits? Heck, I sat in the BRC in 1981 when Dr. Wierwille vehemently stated that an 8th corps guy had a daimon spirit......and after stern confrontation and fuming, wierwille walked away from this guy. No spirit was cast out and the corps guy went back to his unit, graduated, and went on LEAD staff. Huh? What are you guys doing to correct the DOCTRINAL errors that wierwille taught? What are you guys doing to "heal the bruised and broken-hearted" of those who wierwille and martindale sexually abused? Why are all of you guys "teachers?"...... Doesn't anyone have the gift of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist or a Pastor? Sheesh.....it reminds me of the saying, "Those that can't do....teach." I've got lots more questions..............but this is a good start. And, another thing........you guys REALLY need to pull your head out of this echo chamber of self-congratulations and cognitive dissonance. Go to church for a couple of months and learn from them. You guys sound boring as hell.

Hey everyone, I’ve been looking at this site for years and decided to join. I was raised in The Way and just left in 2017, with my husband who was also raised in The Way. We left after seeing the deep corruption and evil within the organization, and after becoming Christians within 24 hours of each other. We have found true freedom and healing over the past 2 years in getting to know Jesus as our God, and though our families have rejected us, have found an amazing family within our church community. Both my husband and I desire to help those who are struggling with leaving The Way, and who are struggling with doing the brain surgery required to unravel all of the lies. We have been able to maintain our faith through this process, and actually understand what “freedom in Christ” means. Personally, I am still working through a variety of issues resulting from my upbringing (both from TWI and a rough parent situation). Counseling and inner healing ministry have been incredibly helpful, and I am hopeful that with time, I will be completely free. Our prayer is to see The Way die completely, and we pray for healing to those who have left but still hold onto the harmful beliefs that the cult teaches its followers. So many people leave TWI but are never truly free from it. My husband and I are available if anyone has questions, or if you are hurting and need a friend who understands what you’re going through.

If you are asking this question in earnest, you might want to consider exploring the works of Joseph Campbell.... The Power of Myth/The Hero's Journey/ etc. etc. etc. The Hero With A Thousand Faces

First, to DWBH, please, let's keep it about content and not about people. And in that vein...I for one don't care one whit about what TLC might see or think on the matter. I only care about the actual quality of the argument and contribution to the discussion. [The bulk of this post was deleted as soon as I realized it was off topic. The following replaces what I originally wrote. If you saw what I originally wrote: I stand by it. But it's off topic.] Jesus specifically commissioned the 12 to preach the gospel to the gentiles. They didn't do it. THEN Jesus goes to Paul. Seems to me that if the apostles had done what Jesus told them to do, he would not have needed to commission Paul to do something as specific as the very thing he told the 12 to do. That is an explanation that is completely consistent with what the Bible teaches on every level. It does not insert an extraneous subtext of "first Israel, then etc. It's really not even a little complicated. This is what the Bible shows and tells. Why am I the only one quoting Jesus in this conversation? P.S. To TLC: I have twisted NOTHING and I am sick of you LYING about that. You are NOT entitled to LIE about other posters, so STOP LYING. You keep saying that I'm twisting your words when I am merely holding a mirror up to the weaknesses of your arguments. That you should constantly resort to false accusations against me is becoming tiresome. it only shows how little you have to contribute to the dialogue here.

I'm going out on a limb here and assume that, by a *higher level of reasoning*, you're referring to revelation.This is a contradiction of terms.Revelation, according to the definitions we were supplied, does not rely on reasoning. By its very nature, it defies reasoning.

Ok. Now that THAT's settled. Thanks for playing along, everyone. I started the first countdown thread in 2005, and we lost. I forget what worthy story won, but we were a finalist for our coverage of the busy 2004 hurricane season. We were finalists again the following year, for the busy 2005 hurricane season, but we had no expectation of winning that one (once again Florida was hit by four hurricanes, but one of them was named Katrina, which did a little bit more damage elsewhere -- New Orleans won that year). Since then our paper won its first Pulitzer in 2013 for an entry written by a few specific people. This one was different in that it was a massive undertaking by the entire staff. It just means more to us as a group. Anyway, enough about it. Just, thank you for playing along with the countdown. Maybe we get to do it again next year, for a less tragic reason. Cheers.

Hi Leah..........welcome to the Café. For those of you who grew up at hq and had parents in leadership positions, I can only imagine the hardships, scrutiny, challenges and fear that were embedded into your psyche at such a young age. As you distinguished astutely in an earlier post.....it sounds like you are well on your way to separating your "cult self" from your "authentic self." And further, you have now established proper boundary lines with your family and loved ones by openly and publically stating what is acceptable, and not acceptable, to you. Good for you! Keep claiming what is rightfully YOURS.......an "authentic self." Individual sovereignty........to think, explore, believe, live, challenge, and commit to the passions that burn within your soul. My wife and I exited twi nearly 21 years ago after, what I would term, six turbulent years as leadership in Oklahoma. Suffice it to say that I spent time with your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, and some of your first cousins. Look how their lives have changed in the past 20-something years! Commitments changed. Perspectives altered. None of what they were, or weren't, committed to should hold sway to YOUR goals, passions or self-esteem. You have every right and reason to pursue this journey of self-exploration. And, from the sounds of things.....you've read some good books and, for years, have read threads here at GSC. Good for you. Go at the pace that fits your schedule. Most all of us have a past of *burdens, hurts and fears* that we are working thru or have overcome........hell, I went thru 10-days of deprogramming to fight my way back to my fiancé and then, dealt with years of being estranged from my parents/family. So, yeah......I can relate to the challenges one faces of self-authenticity and autonomy. Live on the sunrise side of the mountain......and greet the days that are before you. You are a brave woman and I commend you for it.

So......THIS is what they've got after TWO YEARS of exiting twi? What do I see? Three corps coordinators trying to position their authority over others Corps devotees attempting to assuage their twi involvement/guilt A few butts in seats.......and stuffy deadness in the air A bland website....https://revivalandrestoration.org/teachings With no one adding to the comments section about the teachings When dozens of corps signed that March 2017 letter to twi's board of directors........how many of them are ALREADY gone from this R&R group? I would wager a guess of 60%. Oh sure, they might show up for a teaching or two in their local area........but who wants to fly into Nevada for a bloviating yawnfest? Who is going to head out the door for some witnessing to bring others to this group? And.....just wait another 2-3 years and see the lackluster involvement. Why didn't these folks just hook up with CFF in Ohio.....rather than start their own gig? Well, for one thing......egos reign supreme! For them to join up with those in CFF would have been a subtle admission of not being "woke" like CFF was in 1995 (when Shroyer and others exited twi). And, as they say......"If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes." Ex-corps coordinators and region guys like to stand at the microphone.......it strokes their ego and narcissism. And......coming full circle.......all of this probably connects the circle of understanding into why wierwille, when he sat thru B.G. Leonard's class in Calgary, Alberta in 1953, rushed home and started signing up friends and family for "his" (cough, cough) October 1953 class. The ego and greed of man. There is nothing new under the sun.

No, that is a false assertion. If there were multiple gods with multiple intents and purposes, it does not follow logically that each one would reveal himself to one and only one culture. If Yahweh existed, quite frankly, it makes no sense that no other culture anywhere on earth heard of him except for those that developed in the middle east. It doesn't matter if Satan is planting stories of false gods all over the place to confuse things: Yahweh would still have the ability to reveal himself to a culture that had no prior contact with Israel. What you're doing is taking what I said and coming up with a tangential reason there would be other gods without addressing the central point of my comment, which is that no two cultures have independently developed the same God. It doesn't matter if 5,000 cultures develop 5,000 different gods. The bizarre thing is that no two came up with the same one. A god who EXISTS could have done that easily.

That still could be late 90s. My car stereo was set to the oldies station, back then. (Now the "oldies" stations play 90s music!) George

No argument! George

Unfortunately all too true. In my voluntary work with homeless and vulnerable people, I've found two main reasons for homelessness. The main one is relationship breakdown; the second is coming out of prison. There may be an interrelationship, but we don't usually ask why they went to prison in the first place, though in some cases it's because of violence, quite possibly towards their partner or wider family. Younger homeless people might be there because of family breakdown. Then they might turn to drugs to fund their unhappy lifestyle and they get a free bed and board at public expense. When people are released, the problems that put them in prison in the first place haven't been magically healed but rather are considerably exacerbated, not to mention the arrested emotional development that most ex-prisoners sustain. I suppose it all comes down to relationship breakdown really. I don't know why Manson committed his crimes, what his background was. I don't know why the young women joined him as partners in crime. I don't know why Leslie VH's background made her vulnerable to joining his murderous bunch. His little cult. Why she let him twist her mind to commit heinous crimes. I do know why some of us joined a cult, how unhappy at home relationships some of us were, what family stresses there were, and what life was life for some people. We too let our minds be re-formed, and then did utterly reprehensible things and also treated non-cult people heinously. For many of us, post-leaving has been/was difficult and it was hard to recover. For some of those in long-term - what do they do but go off and start another cult, seeking the life that they knew before. Keep themselves safe in the prison of their mind. Relationships. Relationships: build good strong relationships. Help your kids, grandkids, and those around you to build decent relationships. Befriend the vulnerable and help them back into relationship with society. Okay. Lesson for the day over. Bit early in the morning (before 10am) to be pondering such deep thoughts. I will wake up properly in about half an hour. Now, where's the caffeine? (= me with morning tea)

I think I need to be clear here. Whatever is behind religion was most certainly created by man. Whether you can boil it down to a single person is debatable, and you almost certainly cannot identify that person. But it was certainly people who came up with the gods. I've often said that if people did not come up with gods, then the same gods, actually existing, would have had the power to make themselves known to multiple groups of people. Europeans would have landed in the New World and told the natives here about Jesus, and the natives would have said, Jesus? We know him. Son of God, raised by a carpenter. We know all about Jesus. Crucified, right? Yeah. You mean you've been to Israel? WOW! What's that like? No two independent societies have ever concocted the same God with the same name and the same set of rules and worship requirements/preferences. But archetypes? Archetypes are elements that good stories have in common. People don't "come up with them in the explicit sense. They come up with stories.

Might even win a prize

No one is suggesting there were no believers in the first century. I would even go so far as to concede these two people existed, although there is no extra-biblical reason to make that assumption. So what? Paul talked them into Christianity. What does that prove? L Ron Hubbard talked oodles of people into Scientology. Why did they believe? because Scientology is true? Or because they were gullible as f? The existence of believers does not establish the authenticity of what they believed. If it did, literally all religions would be true!

Pam, "finding God," was very expensive. I also took it back in 1978; a hundred dollars was a lot of money back then. The class always made me want to fall asleep; what a boring class!! Not only was it boring, but I think ultimately it was worthless to me.

We did WOW training today at my place of work. Very strange to hear people saying "I'm just going down for WOW training". A bit too freaky for me, to tell the truth. In this case, WOW stands for "Ways of Working". I'm going to check out if they plan to introduce an Advanced Class or Corps training. I graduated from my first PFAL class on March 15th 1978, "The Ides of March". I hear that's a good film, but haven't seen it myself. Anyone like it?

Rocky,

WW, yes!!! So true!! I know this happened to me. When I first started attending Twig, it was fascinating; very few rules. Years later, it sucked due to all the rules.

A nest of scorpions devouring each other into the bottomless oblivion they have so richly earned. GOOD RIDDANCE!

Twinky & Skyrider, How ironic - - I bet wierwille so wanted to hear how folks going into the corps were delivered from all the evil of this world by his ministry - - and here we are ex-corps sharing about being delivered from all the evil of his ministry…that’s gotta be some kind of poetic flip-flop of his delusion…an ego-shattering catastrophic kittywampus-episode or something.

Yeah. Pretty much. I read these and I'm just so over this guy. I miss the LCM letters to the Corps. He was WAY crazier.

DWBH.....here's my perspective on your writing, input and delivery, never dial it back. I absolutely enjoy your posts. Your bold and descriptive exposure/confrontation of mogs/mogettes and their lieutenants reminds me of Matthew 23 when Jesus "laid it all out there" concerning the Pharisees (whited sepulchers, etc.). No one on these boards has seen what you've witnessed up close and personal. No one. And, where are the other 420 clergy that were once a part of the wierwille-deceptive-machine? A few dozen of them are in splinter groups living off the façade of the wierwille "foundation." Personally, I come to Greasespot to hear the OTHER SIDE.....and DWBH, you indeed shout it from the rooftops!! THANK YOU.

Yep. Pretty much. The letters mostly lack coherence, mostly were rambling bulls*it. Mostly, if not exclusively "poor me" for the failures of the WC.

IMO, that's too pat an answer. I think it's all of the above possible reasons you gave, Patriot. Different people have different reasons. A few of them might have even bought into the "we're the faithful remnant" crap that RFR has peddled. Since you referred to the low pay a couple times, I assume you're talking about people at HQ. (As for the person sitting in someone's living room studying the Bible and singing songs, I still run into people who are "out" but in a splinter group who don't [or won't] believe bad things about twi or VPW because they don't want to "think evil.") I left HQ staff in early spring of 1986. I resigned, and I was never so happy to leave a place in my life. I hated the mandatory meetings, Rosalie's micromanaging, the rampant hypocrisy, etc. I never regretted getting out of there. In contrast, a couple years later, when I had severed my ties with twi completely, I had a long talk with someone who was still "in," a friend who was a member of the president's cabinet and had held very high positions. He was fully aware at how flocked up things were and what Rosalie was like. But he, who was younger than I was and better educated and better equipped to change careers, said, "If I left, how would I support my wife and child?" I was astounded. It was the fear in the heart of that man! Re: the low pay: If you're debt-free and living in that neck of the woods, you don't need much money to live comfortably. My rent in NK was very reasonable for a nice apartment, and my utilities were next to nothing. Lunch in the OSC was mandatory (gag, gag), so I only had to buy food for 2 meals a day. For people approaching retirement age, as the older staffers must be, if they've stuck it out this long they probably think it's an okay gig. But they'd better not get sick, or they'll become someone else's "burden," and off they'll be sent with no retirement fund, no social security check, nada. For those who have the type of personality that allows them to tolerate mandatory meetings and syrupy-sweet smiles from a "president" whose grins hide daggers, and all the other BS, twi is just the place. God bless 'em. All those things gave me a headache and a heartache.