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It's been a year or more since last posting, I don't visit here very often. I hope everyone is well. I came looking around for news about TWI, I guess they are laying very low and not doing the crazy crap they used to when Weirwille and Martindale where running things. I'm pretty much over my whole cult experience. I'm still in the same apartment, with the same cat. Haven't drank alcohol in 5 years and that is going great. I'm on ozempic and jardiance which has helped me get down to a 5.5 A1C and lose 50 lbs. I hope everyone is doing well. Seth

And where the eff did they get "more than 900 people" to sign up as Way Ambassadors? Or is it just that they have 900 actual "members" and declared that wherever they are they are "ambassadors of TWI"? A mere technicality to be able to claim they have 900 ambassadors.

I don't know about TWI being Christian Nationalist, but here's my take. A thing about TWI was that mostly they simply didn't regard others as having a valid viewpoint. Our way or the highway. So little regard for others that they didn't even notice them. There was a big oval table in the auditorium. Inlaid countries of the world. Lovely. Where was New Zealand? And what other countries were missing? Other countries have different cultural traditions, including Christian traditions. But no. You will do it our way. Even if it was culturally offensive or ineffective. Disclaimer on this : in Christian Etiquette, Mrs Allen taught how Americans should eat, how to handle a knife and fork, etc. She made the point that this was American etiquette and urged people from other countries to follow their style of eating. Good - because in my countries, eating American-style is poor manners and only used by children learning to eat properly!! Might be used casually but never in "polite society." I have lived in two other countries for very long periods and visited many others, and I have a number of friends who have been missionaries in other countries. American ways are often viewed with suspicion. Solutions to problems can be imposed, rather than reached in consensus with locals. (As an aside: You only have to look at the world situation now to see how "solutions" are trying to be imposed without taking into account the views of others involved - but no more of this, least it be deemed "political.") But I don't know if this was just TWI, or if it was American culture generally, that thought the American way was the only way worthy of living. I doubt that any such culture would have been recognised in the middle east, where Christianity was born. It certainly isn't in line with Jesus's teachings. Certainly TWI dismissed other Christian traditions without considering the merits thereof, any spiritual help those traditions gave to others, and neither did they consider whether their own "brand" was really helpful to people from any cultural background. USA is such a huge country with so much diversity. One size does not fit all. Well. That's a cult for you.

twi is still selling "The Outreach Strategies of Jesus Christ." That was lcm's baby. They're still selling it, but I don't see his name. Typical twi- remove the names, and pretend that solved EVERYTHING.

We're hearing a lot in the news lately about the rise and influence of Christian Nationalist believers in our government. For those interested, here's a sample of what I've written on that topic. Feel free to share these links on your social media pages. Confession: I'm a Former Christian Nationalist Launched in L.A.: The Campaign of Christian Fundamentalism Former Religious Right Leader Endorses "Undertow"

Oldies' video... Woh, all the hair gone, but sporting a moustache now. I wouldn't have recognised him. Interesting that he is preaching and has translators acting immediately. Maybe that will slow down his histrionics, his disgusting rants, his foulmouthed insults. Got to be a good thing! One wonders who is the target audience.

Nice to see you, Belle. It's been a while.

3,000 participants. Does that include, I wonder, all the staff pressganged to work on the event? Limb coordinators, etc (if such still exist), dragged in? Together with spouses and children? I'm almost surprised that there'd be 900 non-staff present. And 900 "ambassadors"? In their dreams!

Your suspicion is correct. The Ten Commandments were considered passe, having been superceded by The Great Commandment. I'm pretty sure they would have rather had posters promoting S.I.T. In regard to Christian Nationalism, Wierwille was a close follower of Willis Carto and The Liberty Lobby. You can draw your own conclusions.

Would TWI or victor support the mandatory display of the Ten Commandments in classrooms - a hallmark of contemporary Christian Nationalism? I suspect they wouldn't, since that's a Jew thing and that Jew law doesn't apply to Christians. Any thoughts on this?

You're welcome. You're welcome.

I think what it shows is that AI is only as reliable as the data fed into it, which might or might not be accurate and/or biased.

Thank you penworks. You're research proves that even AI doesn't know it all! I did a few other AI searches with some of your research material, and AI included snippets of your information not posted in the first AI search. So overall I believe this proves that AI isn't comprehensive all the time... Something good to know for future reference...

The teaching I'm thinking of was presented in the live, 1972, Dealing With The Adversary Class. The essence of it was that what we call the subconscious is really a spiritual force looking for a way to sneak through the "trap door". I'm not saying I believe this stuff, just saying this is what I remember being taught. edit: This is why you were supposed to counteract it by quoting scripture.

I'll use this definistion from:Christian nationalism | Definition, History, United States, & Facts | Britannica: "Christian nationalism, ideology that seeks to create or maintain a legal fusion of Christian religion with a nation’s character. Advocates of Christian nationalism consider their view of Christianity to be an integral part of their country’s identity and want the government to promote—or even enforce—the religion’s position within it." In my experience with The Way, it was clear Wierwille believed the U.S. was founded to be a Christian nation and his ministry's goal was to bring it back to God's word (which was in actuality Wierwille's mostly-stolen bible teachings). Numerous outreach efforts were put into action, one year Word over the World ambassadors were assigned to target political elections. There was a program "God's Word in Culture" which aimed to convert folks who could spread The Way's propaganda anywhere and everywhere. Wierwille didn't make a secret out of his hope that this country would return to what he believed the founders intended, which was to base the U.S. on Christianity. This sure fits the profile of Christian Nationalism. It is not the way of democracy. I once wrote a paper titled, From Fundamentalism to Freedom. Here are a few quotes: "Dr. Wierwille was determined in this mission. "The United States of America is the central battlefield in a spiritual warfare being waged between the sons of God empowered and enlightened by His Word and spiritual wickedness from on high...we have been appointed and commissioned by God to carry the light of His Word to a nation desperately in need." (Wierwille, The Way Magazine 1974). He also wrote: "One reason America was in need, was that it had turned from God’s way of doing things. “So we in the good old U.S.A. have been caught up in the efforts to replace our American Christian foundation with a man-centered philosophy” (Wierwille “By The Way”. Those articles were published in the St. Mary's Evening Leader newspaper). The Way historian back in the 1980s told me that: "He [Wierwille] came across a book, The Light and the Glory, which had a major effect on him. Many of the Way’s leaders began teaching it in classes designed to show the importance of America in God’s plan to get The Word over the world. This was the goal of The Way Ministry. In practice, it meant promoting the PFAL class and running Way fellowships in every country. She also told me that a staff person, who had worked closely with Dr. Wierwille, said that before this time in the 1970’s most people on staff did not even vote. She remarked that the term “founded on” seems to be the key in understanding what people refer to when they say this country is Christian. In other words, when someone says this country was “founded on the Bible,” they are usually appealing to the Puritan and other Christian influences of the early settlers, not to what the Constitution sets forth separating church and state." Since I had never read The Light and the Glory, I found a copy and read the authors’ basic premise. One basic presupposition is that God had a definite and extremely demanding plan for America ... First, God had put a special ‘call’ on this country and the people who were to inhabit it. In the virgin wilderness of America, God was making His most significant attempt since ancient Israel to create a new Israel of people living in obedience to the laws of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Marshall, Manuel 22). As I read along, I wondered how the authors could reconcile these statements with the First Amendment. They feel the early settlers had a correct understanding of the will of God for America, and that this tradition is still somehow alive today. In Christians on the Right, I found further evidence of this way of thinking. "It was a God-given opportunity to do what they (the Puritans) had never been able to accomplish in the Old World: to establish a society which would be built entirely on their understanding of God’s laws as revealed in the Bible (Kater 22)." The Way held similar beliefs. I realized I had been in a group which tried to indoctrinate others with its own idea of God’s will just as those mentioned above. I saw that I had believed The Way’s interpretation and understanding of the Bible should be accepted by everyone. Where was the freedom to choose in that? During my years in The Way, I did think we should be and were examples to the world of what it means for Christians to live together in love. We were convinced our goal was attainable. We felt so strongly about this that one of our aims was to influence decisions made by our government. Dr. Wierwille was very adamant about this. “Let us put men and women into office who stand for the principles of God’s Word and let us rally to their support...get involved in the outreach of God’s Word or see America die. (Wierwille, The Way Magazine 1975. 30). I admitted we had just been reenacting what the Puritans had done long ago".

Just read that link and my confidence in AI fell even lower than it already was. 1. TWI does NOT believe in the divinity of Jesus. 2. They most certainly DO (or did) lean heavily into political ideologies, as evidenced by the hot water they found themselves in when promoting a certain politician's campaign in the 1970s. 3. Wierwille wasn't really a "Dr.".

Yes, the man PERSONALLY responsible for losing 80% of the membership for a church group, who is frequently cited as a reason people left afterwards, is teaching on leadership. He also taught on outreach strategies, or how to increase numbers in church group membership.

You can find it in your local bookstore in the Fairy Tales aisle.

If you go, take this map https://www.reddit.com/r/theway/s/bY4Mifgkkl

Sounds like a solid plan.

Say, baby, bring me an orange soda..

Been on it for over a year, I'm on the top dose, only real side effect is a loss of appetite in the evenings, food isn't as exciting as it used to be. It's a long term treatment.

Two grown steps. Two teen bio. Adopted boy, 7 Adopted girl, 2 Adopted boy, 1. The adopted boys are biological half-brothers.

Hi Raf, a little late, but thanks for the note! Congratulations on your adopted little girl! Steve

Yeah remember those too. Even got to listen to him berate a group of people that I knew was me because of being told I was going to be dropped but had to wait for it to be finalized while I pretended nothing was wrong. So thankful that getting dropped is what led to FREEDOM and a real relationship with God.

Thanks. Sounds like an interesting read.

What seven languages do you speak? Yeah, I know it's a bit off-topic. Just curious.

Hello Seth!

Always good to hear from you, Seth.

That first quote comes from one a movie that grows on me every time I think about it. Brilliant writing. Unless you're Harold, of course.

Well that's a fine "so what?"

So you know how they say you shouldn't argue with people on the Internet because no one changes their mind? Not exactly true. Sometimes people do change their mind (I mean, look at me), but more often, you'll be exposed to a new way of looking at an issue that you had not previously considered. For example, I tried to convey the thought in previous posts that a judgment can be subjective even if it is universally shared (like one actress being more attractive than another). Turns out there's a word for that, one that has been used on GSC before (but it's been about 16 years). Someone on threads tried to convince me that morality is objective because of something called "intersubjective objectivity." As first I thought he was babbling, but when I looked it up, I realized this perfectly articulated my feelings on morality: Intersubjective objectivity is when you have a subjective judgment and it widely, widely shared. Like, widely to the point where if someone disagrees, you have to question that person's sanity. Like, "E.T. was a better movie than Mac and Me," or "Celine Dion is a better singer than Yoko Ono." I mean, these are opinions, but you'd be hard pressed to find a sane person who disagrees. We treat such opinions as objective, even though they are not. That is "intersubjective objectivity," a term that I do not employ because I find it misleading (as it is not objectivity at all. It is an alternative to objectivity). I prefer to just call it what it is: Intersubjectivity. Morality is not objective. It is intersubjective. Murder and rape are not objectively evil. But the subjective judgment that they are evil is so pervasive that they might as well be objectively evil. They are intersubjectively evil. You may still find the odd person who disagrees. We call them sociopaths. We have a vested interest in protecting ourselves from such people.

Welcome, Lulu.

Wierwille, Martindale, Bickle, and… Kat Kerr. That’s a hand never tired of the glove.

Former IHOPPer! This is great! When were you there!? I hope everybody here knows about Willow Creek Church; Gateway Church; Bishop Eddie Long; Ravi Zacharias; Todd Bentley; Daystar; TBN, Celebration Church, etc, etc. If not, newsflash, The Way was not alone. I loved the worship at IHOPKC (horrific murder/suicide/cult incident there). Like The Way, I never got involved in their programs (Intro to IHOP; IHOP University; Fire in the Night, etc). Eventually, they kicked me out. For one thing, as you might guess, I wasn't a fan of their 'Israel Mandate'. You're asking the same things I'm asking. How are they processing ALL that happened? I mean, all of it. What's most important for me now, where are they at and where are they going? These are the conversations I'm looking for but I'm not going to grill anyone like they have to meet my approval. So far everyone has been open and kind. I did listen to one of Craig Martindale's recent teachings on You Tube. Now, there's a resurrection, huh? He still holds Dr Wierwille in highest regards. Don't know about the Way just yet. Wow, did I grow old, or what? LOL

I didn't go WOW myself. I was fresh out of college and despite the prevailing culture, I wanted to keep control of my life and for the first time become unpoor. To this day I can't say if I lacked trust or if I exercised prudence. I can say this, I didn't have the bitter fall that others did. After the Army about 5 years later when I was going to 'give in' and go WOW, the coordinator or whoever discerned I didn't have the right attitude and said 'no'. I just filed for social security and I never did get unpoor. I did spend 3 years in China as kind of a missionary English teacher.

I got very caught up with the Bickle sexual abuse scandal and the IHOPKC coverup and how similar it was to weirwille's and twi's. What did you know about the latter and what is twi saying about it now? There's no way I respect twi today for their lies and coverup for this man. Do they still call him "the man of God for our day and time" or just their "father in the word?"

One thing I can say about the Way, it looks like they never discovered good worship. Looks like they still do the performances. The rest of Evangelical Christendom has long known about something much more experiential with the Holy Spirit. Recent Bob Stanley: Hillsong:

Ah, but what's their religion? The people I met, I don't think they want any part of the old religion, either. Not trying to ruffle feathers. I was just wondering if anyone was open to redemption and restoration. It may not be there, I have no idea. I have no interest in Zionist churches. Really, I don't have much interest in gatherings that focus on professional Christians giving weekly speeches. If anyone still has interest in the book of Acts, Tom Wadsworth on You Tube has a lot to say that I find interesting.

Good for you.Thanks to this ole sight and lots of great people,I feel it would be a step backard into their religion.

Charlene, maybe you should go - with a stack of Undertow books. Your appearance has changed since you left. Wear a big hat and sunglasses. You could get away with it for a few hours. How funny would that be!!!!! Oh and some earplugs too. You don't want to listen to the BS and the repetitive songs.

I'm trying to figure out how to reply to rocky's post. Mathematics Destroys Brands. I always read the labels. I don't care what the label (brand) has to say.. show me the numbers, show me some statistics.. fortunately.. in the US.. the brands are .. what is the word.. forced to report at least partially honest statistics

Hi Stephen. I'm a moderator on this site now (Modcat5) so sometimes a lot of time passes before I sign on as Raf. Sorry about that. So, here's the quick bio: Nov. 1988: I graduate PFAL. Sometime in 1989: Graduated Intermediate. Spring/Summer 1989: Left the Way along with most of NY State. Summer 1991: Met the first Mrs. Me Fall 1992: Married the first Mrs. Me. 1992-1996: Ran a fellowship in the Bronx. 1993-1999: Worked at a major metropolitan newspaper in NYC famous for having a globe in its lobby, as seen in the 1978 movie Superman. 1997: Split from the first Mrs. Me. 1999: Moved to Florida for another newspaper job. 2000: Met the second Mrs. Me. 2006: Started dating the second Mrs. Me. 2007: Married the second Mrs. Me. 2009: First son born. 2011: Second son born. 2012: After years of struggling with various questions of faith, I realize my worldview makes more sense without a god than with one. 2019: Won a (shared) Pulitzer for coverage of the aftermath of a local tragedy in South Florida. 2021: Mrs. Me and I begin fostering kids.