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That whole "Great Principle" thing made no sense. God can't communicate except to what he is, i.e. spirit? But somehow that spirit that he "created in you" can communicate to your mind?

Oh gosh, I will also add that I do not believe I was / others were totally a victim of circumstances (unless they were children; I experienced traumas thruout my childhood that did make me more vulnerable to adulthood abuses, but-)- to a degree, I put myself in the position of being groomed, of taking unwise risks, etc, as other victims have. Thank goodness we accept what responsibility is rightly ours so we can heal, recover, gain boundaries, warn others, and move on.

Well, am recently back from the CFFM 25th Anniversary "Reunion" weekend in Tipp City OH. A Very Wonderful Time for the most part, especially (for me) hanging out Saturday night singing lots of the old songs together, a healing time of joy and time traveling back to the GOD-blessed inspirational "I belong here" times, which a part of me still cherishes apparently. So there we were in the hotel lobby, some folks older and wiser most likely, but still enjoying "Daddy's Arms", "Eagle Inside", ETC together. Why not?? I just wept afterwards... Cleansing, delivering, connecting to the past with a new more whole me... Validating GOD'S good moving and Jesus' excellent working I think, in spite of EVERYTHING else that began to unfold later. (I am very loosely connected to CFF; attend some weekend conferences in OH, and went to annual Family Camps in NH until Covid; enjoy teachings on their website occasionally.) I am specifically writing about a few other things too- Tonya Schroyer, love her to death!, handled The Way several times briefly- shared again about being full of condemnation etc when she finally got out, but also said "We were taught well". And "I had a good beneficial time in the Way, I know some ppl didn't"... But let's remember that his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be." Then later four folks were honored with ordination among them Sarah Wierwille Guigou, and she spoke: "I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)." I stopped to think how the youngest daughter of vpw would feel, what she may have experienced hate-mail-wise, how she was kept from visiting her mother, or attending her funeral I believe. HOWEVER, having learned about the many powerful sexual abusers getting away with all of the cover ups, the knee jerk reactions of victim blaming and doubting, the deep suffering of the victims on various fronts and levels, and the general IGNORANCE of people re: trauma and PTSD, I would have worded my statement a little differently if I were Sarah.- I would have added "I know my father hurt and abused many people, and some of them are still suffering from the traumas they experienced in the Way. For this I am deeply sorry, and if there is anything I can do to help with their healing, I am available. Victims need to be heard, and their experiences validated." The angry hurting side of me wants to help her add more, if I may- "My father was a lying, cheating, f____ing B_ST_RD. He abandoned his family. He betrayed my mother over and over. Yes his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be", but that was mostly a sanctimonious, hypocritical, self-pitying, facade. I pray for God to have mercy on his soul, and trust that He will bring justice for every single victim of my father's lust and power abuses. Amen." Thank you again for this safe place to process and voice these things!! Maybe I should connect with someone at CFF about this so that I am not just venting here without actually addressing things. But I know blasting ppl doesn't work... Asking Qs is probably the way to get ppl thinking but not sure if that is really needed for myself or them... I have already written to Kevin Guigou and he was kind, so maybe that is enough for now. AND I talked with Sarah as well two years ago without laying any specific blame on vp, but therapeutic counseling is not her forte, which is fine. To God be the Glory, great things He is doing, and Lord I/we have an eagle inside!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God bless!

Thinking back at some of the places I worked, fear was used a lot. Like fear of getting fired or doing something the wrong way, or somehow shamed. TWI went further than that, trying to get deep in your mind and life and be afraid of every thought.

Funny he said that in the class but promoted fear through the way tree, turning the tree upside down and killing the leaves. As Bolshevik said somewhere back a few posts, fear was institutionalized. The no fear thing was all about getting you through the 12th session anyway. After that you were fair game.

Anyone notice that "The Great Principle" was based on something that CHANGED? "God is Spirit, and God can only give what He is- which is Spirit." "God is Spirit, and God can only communicate with Spirit." Wherever he plagiarized those from, it's obvious he didn't UNDERSTAND them since they contradict so obviously when he phrases them. "God gave manna. God is NOT manna." So, the first statement is BLATANTLY wrong. If the second is supposedly true because spirit only communicates with spirit, then eventually there is a disconnect. "God, who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the senses world as you act." Well, how did my spirit teach my mind? Spirit communicated with not-spirit there. Is my spirit more capable than God Almighty, who IS Spirit?

EXACTLY...... And further, when you sit back and think about it.....wierwille, in all his narcissistic glory, attempted to become mediator between God and man. Step aside Jesus Christ and holy spirit......wierwille's got this. sarc/

Wierwille, after spending the first four sessions of PFAL repeating in various iterations that the Bible is without error, then spends a few sessions pointing out contradictions (or "apparent" contradictions if you will) and then shows you how they're not really contradictions...here's what it really says, what it really means, building up his own street cred as someone who can uncover the truth when every denomination in history got it wrong. That was the real purpose of PFAL, beneath the veneer of Biblical research that any Joe Schmoe could do was the idea that it was Wierwille who's conclusions should be trusted without question. If anyone questioned Wierwille's conclusions they were strongly encouraged to "hold it in abeyance", since obviously you were missing something if your conclusions were different than Wierwille's. Which was why things that made no sense, even within the context of "research" that Wierwille pushed, were accepted, at least provisionally. Things like "The Great Principle", or the idea that the original sin of Adam & Eve was masturbation, or the thundering herd of grammatical errors and leaps of illogic that filled so much of his "teaching"

Lest we forget how profound advanced class teachings were......."Cancer is a devil spirit." Wierwille taught this in his advanced classes. Wierwille dies of cancer. Need I say more? The contradictions, the insanity......of groupthink. “Insanity in individuals is something rare — but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule.” Fredrich Nietzsche

your post brought to mind something I shared of how we deceive ourselves / cognitive dissonance on another thread - see here "How do we handle the internal conflict that arises when facts or events contradict deeply held beliefs? In his groundbreaking book, When Prophecy Fails (1956), Leon Festinger and his co-authors sought to answer that question by investigating a doomsday cult. The group was led by a Chicago housewife who claimed to channel warnings from the fictitious planet, Clarion. Through automatic writing she was told that the Earth would be destroyed by a cataclysmic flood before dawn on December 21, 1954. The faithful quit jobs, left spouses, and gave away money and possessions, in preparation for the arrival of a flying saucer that would rescue them. When the flying saucer did not appear, and the flood did not happen, the cultists changed the narrative, and then changed it again. They convinced themselves that their clocks were wrong. When they recognized that their clocks were correct, they set a new time for the arrival of the spaceship. When that event failed to occur, they convinced themselves that God had chosen to spare the world at the last minute because of their good deeds. To explain this behavior, Festinger coined the term “cognitive dissonance.” This theory states that when there is discordance between our beliefs and external events or actions, we either change our actions or change our beliefs. Many people are reluctant to change their behavior, so they double down on their belief. In the case of the Clarion cult, so many had sacrificed so much in preparation for Armageddon, they were unwilling to change their actions, so they changed the narrative of their belief." From: Psychology Today: 5 Faces of Deception in a post fact world == == == === = The Advanced Class was the perfect booster shot that not only renewed but increased the disharmonious effect of PFAL...students found it was easier and quicker to fight off reality...as a bass player with a wooden ear I liken it to a “stupid-natural” ability to be even more out of tune with the state of things as they actually exist.

Annio, I really appreciate your feedback – and would like to redeem myself after I failed to limit the application of my post...I was addressing interpersonal problems. - problems people have when relating to each other...for me, that's the extent of Jay Adams' points I referenced...I did mention in that post I have broadened my perspective far beyond Adams – and I have a great appreciation for all the legitimate medical treatments, medicine, research and therapies available – something that Adams lacked...I apologize for my lack of clarity and specificity. I am sorry if I gave you the impression I was speaking to any and all problems that may come upon a person. You are right in mentioning the bigger picture of life and the ultimate priority of healing and deliverance...I totally agree with what you said so maybe I should clarify my perspective. Regarding mental health, medical professionals should be addressing the trauma that befalls a person – by any legitimate means possible – the various therapies, medications, developing technologies, continued research. ...A couple of years ago our daughter participated in a medical study using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) which is a noninvasive form of brain stimulation – the research is still evolving but so far the diagnostic and therapeutic potential is promising in treating a wide variety of disease states in neurology and mental health. Results for our daughter were amazing. She has down syndrome and had been diagnosed with clinical depression. To complicate matters she had become very withdrawn and didn't communicate much – it was a noticeable decline. The best we could figure out after talking to medical professionals and reading up on it – she may have been dealing with catatonia – but little is known about catatonia associated with down syndrome...But like I said the results of TMS for our daughter were amazing (the treatment was several times a week over a number of weeks). It was like we got our old daughter back. TMS seemed to have alleviated the catatonia thing and the depression is manageable. She's definitely more outgoing now judging by the feedback we get from the staff at the day hab she attends...and every night we've been watching the series Friends on HBO Max – she will often ask what or why they're doing something – this is a lot of fun and she learns more about our culture...and if you were to visit our home she just might corner you and tell you all about her cat, favorite restaurants or something she wrote on the computer.

I think Matthew 10:16 In the spirit of Jung, you have to know your shadow . . . or you will do more harm. Lots of positivity talk is to make folks drop their guard.

The following is the back cover text (I did not add extra space between paragraphs): This biblical teaching book is solely based on scriptures from the bible. Many bible verses are quoted from or referred to before or after the author teaches and provides godly spiritual knowledge. In addition, factual and informative reference books that include the definitions of the original Greek words that the bible words were translated from are quoted from to help our understanding. The author primarily promotes Jesus Christ in this book, while basing his views of Jesus Christ from bible verses, especially from the New Testament. Perhaps the author could be considered a cheer leader for Jesus Christ. The author primarily promotes Jesus Christ instead of one individual denomination or church. Hopefully many people that are part of different churches or denominations will learn from this book. The author wrote this book to serve and help people instead of wanting to lord over people like the Pharisees and Sadducees often tried to do in the first century when Jesus Christ lived his natural physical earthly life. We only have one Lord, Jesus Christ who represents God’s love and is our loving savior.

Yes, wierwille used well-worn tactics in his modus operandi. In closed-door settings, he would opine and deflect attention from himself onto "undisciplined" corps...... and play the victim. His corps letters utilized this manipulative tactic over and over again. But on occasions when he could not contain his anger, wierwille's aggressive outbursts were sadistic (deriving pleasure through others undergoing discomfort or pain). He would continue his tirade to exact a level of fear, humiliation and discomfort over the individual(s) that satisfied his malignant narcissism. In hindsight, it is apparent that wierwille's passive/aggressive tactics were a major portion of his narcissistic playbook. For example: The 1979 Advanced Class in Athens, Ohio was a big event with wierwille teaching live the advanced class. Promotions were going out nearly a year in advance. Like at Olympics, wierwille wanted a "torch" to be carried from Rome City, Indiana to Athens, Ohio.....ie *Rome to Athens*..... to symbolize this great event. Small groups of runners were assembled and assigned to run thru key towns and cities to rally attention...... and in Van Wert, wierwille wanted 40 RUNNERS to run this section. Why? Wierwille wanted to *stick it to his old church and congregants* that his ministry was thriving. Why do I remember this so vividly? I was one of the forty runners who ran thru Van Wert that day. In my opinion, wierwille was defined by malignant narcissism........ All decisions and actions had wierwille's self-absorbed ego front and center...... .

Not close enough. She's not in any of the movies. George

Thanks for the invite. I actually do believe you. Last week I was just talking about MORE efficiency in learning toward doing all the things that Jesus Christ did and greater. I know I do better the more I turn my focus off the TWI negatives and onto the positives of the Word. My 5 years of daily exposure to the TWI negatives was all I could handle, and I just wanted to live the positives. Just as I believe you can do SOME good with daily exposure to such negatives coming here to GSC, I also believe the current folks at TWI-4 can do some good, karmicly immersed in some past negatives daily. For myself, for you and all GSC people working and ministering the Word, and for all the grads in TWI now, I wish and pray for maximum acceleration toward more accuracy, more love, and more power. Plus I thank you for the tone I feel from you letter. I wanted to say the same tone thanks to WordWolf, but my time is very scarce this week. Maybe soon I can be back to continue this positive trend. Thank you for sharing your heart, Twinky.

Lurking is the next best thing to posting but I always enjoy reading your posts, Oak !

Anything POLITICAL is against GSC rules. Since that almost ended the GSC, that's NOT up for debate nor reconsideration. Some subjects are too rife with politics, controversy, or both. A different thread with the opposite intent was shut down quickly the other year. They didn't forbid your POV, they're ending all discussions on that subject in EITHER direction (at least, at this point in time- but then, there used to be political threads once, as well.) They're not being "woke", they're setting boundaries for this board.

you mean you didn't see that coming?

Enmeshment. . . . When one person and another have no boundaries . . . Where one person ends and the other begins is not defined. The shared fantasy . . . When you are not you but are an extension of the leader

It doesn't bother me that any of pfal was taken from someone else. I do and will point out that pfal was off the mark in many ways, in a positive manner that someone might hear, from the first session through the advanced class and more. I'm glad that GSC is here as a forum to voice these matters. And I am not alone, without these other members, including mike, things would not be said that need to be said.

Sneaky Sneaky. I don't even feel thinner either.

Delusionando

That last part is how there are fat people with malnutrition- they are eating plenty of CALORIES per day, but are not eating enough NUTRITIOUS FOOD per day. Not enough veggies, not enough fruit, and you can have all sorts of health problems. Granted, tiny amounts of fruit or vegetable in a day can prevent something like rickets, but that amount is far short of what we need in a day to avoid malnutrition.

That whole confess your sin for forgiveness was to justify wrong doing. Namely, VPW's sex life. Which some others adapted to quite quickly. Forgiveness is a way of life, a reality, not something that happens according to what is done or not done.

The renewed mind is the key to power. The key to the renewed mind is the stayed mind. Power comes from the grandiosity in the shared fantasy. Just a bunch of steps to tune out the chaos of reality. Nice feeling not dealing with anything real. Always victorious that way.

When it is taught and practiced that love is obedience what the heck do you expect? . . . OBEY!! Oh! . . . Says here Narcissists prefer fear, obedience and admiration over love and likability. Due to the inferiority complex and paranoia. I wonder if these matters have a connection . . .

https://www.routledge.com/World-Hunger/Collins/p/book/9781853834936?gclid=CjwKCAjwoZWHBhBgEiwAiMN66ftDfvzAnmtDEnVc3hVZKt2xDFxTsJyCzEy6BBnEpAUUKxkvFTruExoCGmMQAvD_BwE Written in 98 but that's where I got the idea

People don't know how to provide their Narcissist supply properly. There should be a class. "Power For Feeding Your Narcissist." Not catchy enough. Maybe a little too forward.

Didn't mean to go politics. Sorry.

I do think a lot of people boredom-eat, or comfort-eat. A habit, to have something to do with your hands (and teeth) without paying particular regard to what you're doing. Like smokers, who need to have something in their fingers. There is no doubt that people are getting much, much larger. To see some people walking about is painful. Their knees bend awkwardly and the strain on their backs must be dreadful. They are injuring their bodies in horrible ways. And that's just what can be seen. Processed foods with all their additives aren't a good thing at all. Who knows what really goes into them? But another thing that concerns me is what is done to animals while they are still alive. If they are given growth hormones to stimulate their growth, so that they put on weight more quickly (and thus earn more money for their farmers), surely those growth hormones will pass through into whatever eats those animals? So people must be ingesting growth hormones from over-medicated animals. And that's impossible for the eater to detect.

For the first time ever, I've put on about 10 lb that I wish weren't there. It's mostly snacky eating that's done it, together with half a bottle of wine twice a week and a shedload of delicious Lindor chocolates (lots of offers round Christmas and the months afterwards = woe is me!). I prefer fresh vegs and homecooked food, so no issues there. My life/activities have been little changed in the last ten years, so it's not activity levels. I've given up buying chocolates and cut back on the vino. I think the increase is halted, maybe even reversing slowly. A friend who was told he has pre-diabetes and had got to around 215-220 lb was sent by his doc on a diabetes awareness course, which he found really helpful. By watching carbohydrates, he managed without any difficulty to lose 30-35 lb and is now fitter and gets up hills much easier than he did 40 years ago. He found this "Carbs and Calories" book extremely helpful: Carbs & Cals Books | Carb & Calorie Counter Book (carbsandcals.com) You can get it through Amazon and probably many other sources as well. It's quite useful, not preachy, shows photos on standard sized plates, dishes or spoons of common foods in different portion sizes, and also shows substitutes, giving the carb count for each photo. Another friend who has been overweight for years and has tried quite a few diets, unsuccessfully, is now doing very well with Noom. She says she's never got this far before. She has a number of medical issues that can affect her weight. This Noom plan apparently addresses the psychology behind eating - what, when, and how - rather than calorie-counting or similar. Noom: Stop dieting. Get life-long results.

The older I get the more frequently I return to this topic. In my 40s and 50s I had no problem controlling my weight through a variety of means: Atkins diet, sheer-willpower-starving-myself-down-to-a-certain-weight, aerobics and free weights…but now in late 60s it’s tough to try and lose weight - I don’t have the drive to do all that…another “mystery” for me is how metabolism changes with age - and there’s probably other factors that affect it too.

Hmmmmm. That sounds familia.

During our brief tenure in FWC we spent a lot of time harvesting produce grown there. I distinctly remember apples, potatoes, tomatoes and perhaps onions. We were involved in making salsa; I've written about that elsewhere. They raised chickens, beef and pigs as well. Did we benefit from this largesse? Nope. It was shipped to HQ. it's a challenge to perform four hours of hard physical labor after a breakfast of one cup of granola and milk, and a delicious lunch of one cup of tomato soup and two zwieback crackers. On rare occasions we got chicken or other meats, and every day we had to exercise vigorously. I realized recently that this arrangement is very similar to a work camp in a communist country. We workers slaved away for the benefit of the elite, who graciously permitted us to have a few crumbs from under their gilded tables.

I long ago came to the conclusion that neither God nor the Lord Jesus cares about trinitarianism or otherwise. They've had 2000 years to correct the error if it's important to them. But no, if anything, trinis are getting more aggressive in pushing their PoV. Its seems to me that they'd rather you believed God in whatever form - trini or otherwise - and whether JC=G or JCNG doesn't matter. To trinis, he is God. To non-trinis, JC is the embodiment or encapsulation of all of God's goodness and righteousness, whilst being fully and only human. I go to a church that's really quite trini, but it's not really a discussed matter. What is discussed, preached and practised is kindness, trusting God, honouring God, believing God, and looking at Jesus as the model and the loving carer for the church. And far from being possessed, the congregation in general and the leadership in particular are working very actively to combat poverty, loneliness, and to bring the love of God and Jesus to a neighbourhood where many don't know at all, and who have daily problems that need practical help (which is given as much as possible). I have never heard a condemning word - "You've got these problems? It's your believing at fault. Your problems are your fault. Are you sure you're abundantly sharing?" Abundantly sharing? Heck, it goes the other way: the church supports with free meals and food parcels those who for whatever reason have the choice between "heat," "eat" and "feet" - paying for their gas/electricity, food for the kids, and clothing and other necessaries. Does that sound like "possessed" to you, Mike? Or does looking poverty or any type of distress in the face, quoting Bible verses and offering to pray but not otherwise doing anything - does that sound more "possessed"?

Wot? Isn't TWI now the softer, gentler, organisation (per RFR)? TWI changes people - brings out the worst in them. People don't change TWI. Lawyers have had a go at changing TWI, but they're only tinkering round the edges. Not the core beliefs or structural arrangements.

. . . I've read he's either NPD and also Borderline PD. I swear I read somewhere, can't seem to find it. . . the borderlines would typically be the middle-management in a cult setting.

You have to appreciate the irony. When I was assigned to staff as way corps there were around 400 or so staff and many of them under the age of 30. A group of staff kids went over to grand lake in st marys and got drunk except one of the kids who was out getting hammered was T!m M@rtind@le. So they fired all the staff kids involved and didn't do anything to Tim except take his name off his door in founders hall, except it was still his room when he was home on weekends and away from college. So word got out and young people quit coming to work on staff except for a very few. Rosalie couldnt stand the younger staff because they were trouble makers in her eyes. She even came up with a youung adult fellowship and made sure it was scheduled on Friday nights so the "young people stuff" could be kept to a minimum. Now Rosalie is weaving baskets over at foxhaven and they have a bunch of new young faces. I hope these kids don't get screwed over and hurt in the end but that's likely as soon as any of them step out of line or come up sith some new research, etc.

why do I feel like I'm watching an advertisement for a retirement home ??

Nailed it. But Vern's bit at the start was not any more candid or authentic.

commercial, saw it when I was active, laughed then, and still a good one powerful living

Fear of rejection as institutional practice. The organization hates itself and scapegoats followers in self defense. Otherwise it would cease to exist. Coffee. Need coffee.

People getting possessed from old way classes. When twi was using those exact same classes, they were touting how fantastic they were and everything. As soon as someone else ran them- with that being the ONLY thing that changed- not only were they useless, they were WORSE than useless because students could get POSSESSED from taking the class! I'm sure all of that hung off, once again, the mis-translation and misinterpretation of a SINGLE VERSE that twi then formed a doctrine around. They said "the present truth" meant the truth that was true now, as opposed to the truth that was true yesterday, or the truth that will be true tomorrow. But that's not how truth works. The truth remains true in the past, present and future (although events may change facts, like the current fastest world record for running the mile is faster than the record a century ago, but running the mile is still running the mile.) The :present truth" didn't mean the truth not of the past nor future. It didn't mean a gift. The "present" meant "HERE RIGHT NOW." We no longer had to wait for it, the truth had finally arrived and we had it! (From the 1st century church through today into the future.) So, It was the truth that was HERE, not a moving target that will keep changing whenever twi wanted to declare something no longer "true."

ahhh so you were the fifth Beatle wheel I used to lip-sync to Beatles' tunes – just another unsung hero.

I proudly announce that I am debt-free. Always have been. My entire life. Never have had to borrow any money, ever, except when I bought my house. Wow, how did I achieve this astonishing feat? My parents taught me. There was little money in the household when we were brought up. Mum couldn't work due to caring responsibilities for her own small kids, and for her elderly grandparents who lived in a nearby village (to which she cycled every day). Dad worked hard at his job and if he could, did overtime or worked as a builder's labourer at weekend, just to make ends meet. I saw the money set aside in a moneybox: this for the milk, this for the gas, this for the rent... Despite great poverty at times, my parents never borrowed. Never. And that's what they taught us. And they gave what they could, to support others. After I escaped TWI, full of guilt and shame (brought on by TWI-teachings) it took me a very long time (because we shouldn't have debts, of course: ungodly) to decide to buy a house . And that was because I couldn't afford to rent anywhere in this city!! Over the years, I've paid off capital lump sums and reduced the time commitment. I now have a tiny mortgage that I have been able to pay off completely for some time; however, the interest over my remaining term I calculate at about £9 and to pay off that amount right now would be £52. So hey! It's cheaper to be in debt!! But come on December (last payment). So soon I will have a capital asset, debt-free, worth a lot of money. Should I sell it and give the cash to TWI? No bloody fear! Do I regret buying a house? No way!! I couldn't afford rents when I bought, and I definitely can't now, 14 years later. I'm just glad the mortgage doesn't continue for another 7 years (to its original term). Advanced class? Phooey! They need classes on COMMON SENSE!

I used to sing with The Beatles. (Had one of those little radios on a rope that you hang in the shower.)

Don't be shy said the spider to the fly.

Took PFAL in 1985, Intermediate 1986, Way of A&P in 2005, Intermediate 2009... and then figured that 25 years was really ENOUGH!

and how 'bout christoph stoop ?