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Everything posted by Twinky

  1. The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice. I'm pretty sure that no matter what version, when written, what history: all will point to honouring God, the creator and sustainer of the universe; to Jesus Christ his son, who is the way, the truth and the life; and to the life we are supposed to lead - one of respect (awe) for God and respect towards our fellow human beings (if not to mention the whole planet and all there is in it. Jesus's summation of "Love God and love your fellow man" isn't likely to have changed much since it was first said 2000 years ago, and here translated a mere 500 years ago: [37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. ... [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. or as NIV, much more recent, puts it this way: Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” But even then, some got nitpicky - even with Jesus ("Oh, I don't understand the words - who's my neighbour? Let's do some research!") And this, as a way of living life (from, for a change, the Berean study Bible - many other versions available). In some versions the words are slightly different due to inexact translations expressing the thoughts behind the words, but the thoughts themselves are unchanged. Gal 5:19-22. 19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. No. No variant reading of the above affects any material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice.
  2. I miss Steve's thoughtful posts, but as is common here, we can still debate the issue even though the original poster is long gone. And what you say, T-Bone, is worthwhile and very interesting. Just don't expect Steve to respond!
  3. increases prosperity All about context, isn't it. And knowing what the words meant at the time. "Prosper" doesn't mean "get a load of money." It means more, THRIVE. To do well for oneself as a whole. 3 John 1:2 Parallel: Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. (biblehub.com) may prosper εὐοδοῦσθαι (euodousthai) Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive Strong's Greek 2137: From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road ... You could say, on the road. Or you could say, "on the way." Who, or what, is the way? Well, don't you know Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life? The one who embodies God's abundance in all things? The epitome and example of the One God who prepared a handbook of what to do (and not do) in order to thrive? To do well in society, and to be in good standing with not only God but with one's fellow human beings? Now read that Book again. How much does it talk about the pursuit of money? And how much, in contrast, of the pursuit of a righteous and well-lived life? Think again of how many examples there are of those who are, or want to be, rich, and the downfall of those folks. Again, in contrast, how many of those who live a righteous and well-lived life succeed financially as a by-product of that life? Some, certainly; but many who live a righteous and well-lived life don't seem to do well financially (Paul and all the apostles, for just a few) - yet they deem their lives immensely rich in the Lord. For goodness sake. Get rid of this damned "health and wealth" heresy. Develop health and godliness. Then, maybe, the wealth will come. Or not. THRIVE, people. THRIVE. 1 Timothy 6:9-11, 6 9 But they that will be rich [and chase prosperity doctrines] fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows [the exact opposite of thriving]. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after [get on the road, the way of holiness] righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 6 But godliness with contentment [God's idea of prosperity] is great gain.
  4. real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on But later, in PFAL, he says: "The Word of God is true whether or not you see it come to pass" or some such. Was that in context of prophets of old looking centuries into the future for the coming of the Saviour, the Promised Seed, the Lamb of God? We know that many of those OT prophets thought they were forsaken by God, at times. They despaired of their own lives. They must have thought God was backing off from his promises. And yet - God saw them through and continued to guide them - and give them prophecies that in no way would they ever see. With God, it's not necessarily instant gratification, which is what it sounds like Weirwille wanted (at least, instant as in the next very few years). Sometimes we only see the blessings of God well in hindsight.
  5. You might be interested in this book. It's a really interesting read. Available s/hand for a very modest amount on Ebay and Amazon.
  6. 4.7K???? Maybe some of those are bots or some such.
  7. Thank you, Rocky. Somebody here can read, and "gets it."
  8. Ah, WW, what has Pillai got to do with the 12 Steps? Especially in the Christian context. Reminder. Here is Step 1. I think in our recovery from TWI, all of us had to start from this place. Our separation from God - either before we ever heard of TWI, or quite possibly because of TWI. I assure you - my life had become so unmanageable that I was near suicidal when they kicked me out. Except that I had so little energy and motivation that I couldn't even do that. Profound depression, PTSD, who knows. Thank God he rescued me and all is very, very well now. Pity I couldn't have listened to him earlier and got out of the misery of the post-TWI state years before.
  9. You guys are waaaay off topic.
  10. Actually, this is what I asked about: "I was very surprised, suspicious, freaked out .. to find that this is the subject of the current term's teachings at one of the churches that I attend. But this sermon series is about the 12 steps on our road to spiritual recovery and our increasing dependence on God ... weaning ourselves off addiction to ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions (whatever they may be, including use of oil - fuel, plastics, etc). "The sermon series is based on a book called Breathing Underwater by Richard Rohr" Rohr, a Franciscan friar, posits that we are all addicted. But for all of us, our addiction is to sin, and we love to sin, it's an illness in us. He posits using the Twelve Steps to overcome our addiction to sin and self. Here is one version of the Christian 12 steps: The Christian 12 Step program and Biblical Principles, as used in Christian Rehab Centers for faith based 12 Step recovery programs around the world. STEP ONE is about recognizing our brokenness We admitted we were powerless over the effects of our separation from God – that our lives had become unmanageable I know nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out (ROMANS 7:18) STEP TWO is about the birth of faith in us Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (PHILLIPIANS 2:13) STEP THREE involves a decision to let God be in charge of our lives Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God – which is your spiritual worship. (ROMANS 12:1) STEP FOUR involves self-examination Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord. (LAMANTATIONS 3:40) STEP FIVE is the discipline of confession Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed (JAMES 5:16) STEP SIX is an inner transformation sometimes called repentance Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up (JAMES 4:10) STEP SEVEN involves the transformation or purification of our character Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1JOHN 1:9) STEP EIGHT involves examining our relationships and preparing ourselves to make amends Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. Do to others as you would have them do to you. (LUKE 6:31) STEP NINE is the discipline of making amends Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (MATTHEW 5:23-24) STEP TEN is about maintaining progress in recovery Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall. (1 CORINTHIANS 10:12) STEP ELEVEN involves the spiritual disciplines of prayer and meditation Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. (COLOSSIANS 3:16) STEP TWELVE is about ministry Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, as you also may be tempted. (GALATIANS 6:1) So, while it may be interesting to discuss the AA 12 Steps programme, the real thing we need to be discussing is the 12 steps we need to take in our own spiritual recovery: our addiction to self, ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions and possessions (things), or even people. For some here, it may mean considering our addiction to heresies, to false teachings, whether from TWI, or Roman Catholicism, or any other religious teaching. --We specifically need to consider our own addiction to anything or anyone that gets between us and the God and creator of the universe. --We specifically need to consider our own addiction to anything or anyone that gets between us and Jesus Christ, in all his sacrifice and glory. --We specifically need to consider our own addiction to anything or anyone that gets between us and living our lives in a spiritual manner, bearing witness to God in our words and our actions. As well as getting rid of ego and self-centredness, we need to examine ourselves and get rid of "nameable" things: hurt, jealousy, lack of forgiveness, thoughts of revenge, living in the past. We need to stop vaunting our own intellectual prowess (vaunting our knowledge above God). We need to stop being greedy, hoarding, and chasing money, etc (all of which show lack of dependence on God's provision). All of these, and many other things, can become "gods" to us, obsessions that get in the way of a true, living, spiritual reality. Instead, we need to consider who God says he is, and to try to deepen our own understanding of Him. This will involve our intellectual abilities - but always bring those back to understanding who and what God is, and what God requires of us. It involves our physical abilities - using what we have to do, to take actions in line with what God wants. That is what "being meek to the Word" means. The 12 steps, whether Rohr's Christian version, or AA's, or Drug Awareness, or any other entity's version, are only tools to help us on our spiritual journey. Too much debate on them, and the exact meaning of the words expressing the steps, veers off into an intellectual curiosity that distracts from actually paying attention and doing what those steps express, which is getting past our selves and into the freedom of our dependence on God.
  11. Scary, isn't it! But I think Mike's talking about the AA Blue Book. Maybe for clarity it could be called AA-Blue to distinguish it from PFAL-Blue?
  12. Great post, T-Bone. One worthy of being split off and reposted in part or whole as a separate thread on the power of prayer, or of redeemed life, or some such, rather than letting it get lost on this thread.
  13. How big is TWI now? How many attend? Too big. Even if there were only the four directors - too big. Go find somewhere real, people. Leave this sham organisation.
  14. "...given the pow treatment..........they were exposed to the illuminati tapes by myron cohen, and the tapes on music by the marx fella, etc.......they were tied together at points, kept locked up in heavy cardboard boxes which were pounded on from the outside all night, sleep deprived, exposed to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, blaringly loud tapes and music, told that the usa had been invaded and taken over by the russians, and, that they would be broken from standing on the word..." That's madness! Torture! Tied together? Locked up? Interrogated? What bloody ego trip was that? Hands up all those who think VPW would have survived something like that! Without complaining!
  15. Do not mistake honesty for bitterness. Do not mistake people's recounting of what happened to them, as bitterness. I suppose we could ask you what your definition is (in this context) of "bitterness." But that would simply invite you to drag the topic even more off topic and away from a serious look at TWI.
  16. Or is it rather, that YOU have no idea how to address the points people here have been presenting to you for well over a decade?
  17. Interesting, huh, about who they want to come back. Ex-leaders. To lead others into the ditch. Not "Ex-members," who, with their money, have gone elsewhere. So who does TWI want? Just former Corps (the ones labelled DFA, or the ones labelled M&A?). Or are they after the ones who've set up splinter groups (so that they can hijack anything those people have already achieved - pinch "their" people, like they pinched Doop's and Heefner's)? What's interesting, if you think about the people here, is that there are plenty of ex-Corps from many decades. Could we all be welcome (cough)? Only those from corps 1-10? 10-16 (or whenever VPW died)? Those from the time of LCM's tenure? Later ones? We were all trained the same - yet differently. My experiences as later Corps aren't the same as those of, say, Skyrider, or earlier Corps. And yet all of us suffered significant indoctrination, and personal abuse, mental beating-up, etc, etc. Personally, I think it was much worse under LCM; it seems from what I've heard that the freedoms allowed by VPW were beyond imagining, in the post-fog reign of terror instigated by LCM.
  18. Is precisely some of the people I work with. One way is to demonstrate by actions, not a thing TWI was very good at. Arguments? Huh? Who cares what answer you got? You get the answer by living the life. Your bit about "meekly learn" is straight out of the TWI playbook. DO NOT EVER try that one on me. The amount of abuse (that's ABUSE, ABUSE, ABUSE, that TWI meted out to so very many under the guise of them not being "meek," is beyond measure. Just shut it, Mike.
  19. This popped up in my Facebook feed this morning and immediately I felt I had to share it with this group. Maybe there's someone here who really needs to hear this. Watch | Facebook (<5 mins) Don't let your life get paralysed by someone else's negativity.
  20. Were neither Doop nor Heefner very well educated in the scriptures, then? I thought they were supposed to have their own powerful Christian ministries that VPW somehow hijacked? Were Doop and Heefner simple, untrained, but passionate believers, swayed by this ordained minister who showed interest in them?
  21. His example served as an example of MRS WEIRWILLE staying together no matter what. Maybe she took her vows seriously ("till death us do part...") and doubtless in the 50s, 60s, 70s, it would have been harder and more socially disastrous for her to divorce him, than the other way about. Mrs W's role as enabler/ victim/ abusee/ whatever, has been debated here a few times. We'll never know. What we do know is that VPW's behaviour is totally out of order and has NO scriptural support whatsoever, but rather, much condemnation. Any of these ex Corps leaders who played around and had any sexual contact with any woman not his own wife was, and is, completely unsuitable for leadership.
  22. Can someone explain to me how VPW managed to get Doop and Heefner to fall under his thrall? If these were such thriving ministries in their own right, why did they affiliate with him? Why both of them (since as I understand it, they were separate ministries anyway). What, did VPW lure one or both into "taking the class" and then demanding fealty forever after - not just of them, but of all their own following? Why didn't these other men stay affiliated in some way without getting badly enmeshed with TWI?
  23. IMO stop referring to the "founding president" of TWI. At that time he was the only president. Not sure if it would be accurate to call the first and only, the "founding" prez, as if the corporation had existed longtime. Did he refer to himself as "founding prez"? Or just as "prez"? It would be accurate to call someone (anyone) the "founding" pres when there'd been at least one other pres. Let's call him the "floundering prez" or the "fondling prez" or if you prefer (and this is accurate like a hand in a vagina glove) the "fukking prez."
  24. How did Wierwille gain control over his followers? That's easy. He taught some genuine (though plagiarised) Bible, taught some good, useful, interesting, stuff. And he was able to get away with it because either the victims were badly taught in churches they'd attended; or they'd not attended church before, didn't know much about God or the Bible; and in both cases this new course or class showed them something new. If you'd never heard stuff taught like this before, and been shown Bible verses to back up what was being said, this was something new. If you're hungry, you'll eat anything. And then, you were undoubtedly surrounded by a bunch of really happy, enthusiastic young people who genuinely appeared to love God, believe God, and had passion in their lives. Who doesn't want to be around enthusiastic and happy people? So if this is the only place you've heard what seems to be genuine Bible teaching, where you haven't heard things like this before, where you've become disillusioned with the church(es) you've been to previously where you hate stuff that isn't doctrinal, or where practices don't line up with what you perceive of God - why wouldn't you stick around? Many people here, and others that I've known, have said that they were delivered from the idolatry of Catholicism. But they might (or might not) have ventured into a protestant church of some ilk, and not found that much better. But here - here, was something that seemed to have depth. For myself, even though I was aware of discrepancies, things that just didn't quite fit together in PFAL, well, I still hadn't heard as much Bible taught as this (initially). I gave the Leecher, sorry, the Teacher, the benefit of the doubt - we all make mistakes, especially when speaking more or less extempore (haha).
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