Twinky

At what period? How long ago were you thinking of? Certainly until recent times, they didn't have the ability to even devise a decent-looking website, much less do any hacking.

Here is another, very beautiful, carol that we are also singing in the concert on Saturday.

And for something completely different, try this: Izar Ederrak (Beautiful Star) - it's in Basque (Spain) and we were provided with a translation and a pronunciation guide. What any Basque speakers would make of our singing ... let's hope there are none in the audience! The song grows on you after a while.

My choral group is putting on a concert this coming Saturday. This is a carol you probably won't have heard. It was composed by one of our singers.

We here have all been victims, one way or another. Do we choose to stay victims? I stayed a victim for a long time, too fearful to dare to be other. But even that fear is a part of the growing experience. Now I have something truly to share with those people who are escaping abusive relationships, fear of many kinds, and those who feel incapacitated. I feel that all my life experiences so far, both good and bad, help me to help someone else. Life is not what I expected 20, 30, 40 or more years ago. Whose is, really? Those who can't or won't learn from failures will be victims all their lives, with chips the size of skyscrapers on their shoulders.

Anyone who has never failed has never tried hard enough.

Funnily enough, I was thinking of this only today. Thinking of the positive things I'd learned and done in TWI (and there definitely were some positives). Some were where confidence had been expressed in me where I'd never done a thing before. Some things were enjoyable - especially at the beginning of each year. And I met some awesome people (most of whom, regrettably, soon disappeared - whether voluntarily or pushed is a mystery), both within my Corps and on staff - mostly low-level staff, I have to say. However, there were many negatives. One of which was the destruction of any confidence of any kind that I had. The sense of oppression and fear that developed. The micromanagement. The face-meltings for using one's God-given common sense instead of checking with some "leader." The snitchiness and brown-nosing of some others of my Corps. The spying on each other, and the paranoia that developed from that. Now, I am part of a great church that genuinely and heartily serves its community. All the churches of all denominations work together in my small city to reach out to all groups of people. But nobody is bullied into doing anything; people want to participate and don't have to be asked. I only have to look at the awesome people in my church and associated churches within the benefice and within the community, to see something amazing and so diametrically opposite to anything in TWI that - well, it's joy and sunshine, contrasted with misery and drabness. I'm a little nostalgic for the friends I'd started to make, some of the fun we had, and the sometimes sense of cameraderie. But that's all. There is NO BLOODY WAY that I would or could endure the organizational thuggery now. Maybe that should be NO BLOODY WAY for emphasis.

It was a serious question. To which I sought a serious answer. This thread has now declined into frivolity and swiping at each other. Ho hum. I wish there was a way to sever off the nutty stuff so that just the relevant info is left.

I want a real book. Not very interested in more screen time.

Much as I'd like to read Undertow, it's only available in the UK with extortionate postage costs, presumably from USA. I don't know how much those claimed costs relate to actual postage costs.

Almosdt - but you don't have permission to do so!

Thanks, rrobs, I'll take a look at this lengthy document. I had thought that this man's ministry was connected distantly with TWI but if it once was, it's now moved a long way from original TWI-type beliefs. Author appears to be a "pastor" in his own non-aligned church, in Rhode Island, but no credentials offered. However, we do know to our detriment that credentials too can be deliberately misleading.

Re-reading what I wrote, not sure that I was clear enough that I don't mean everybody who attends church regularly is under "churchianity." Certainly not what I meant. I do know that service in many capacities is deeply meaningful to some attendees, whether doing the flowers, or cleaning and tidying the building, or whatever it is. There are very many people who do these things as an outward expression of their inner faith and a desire to help others. I include myself in that category. Good for your mum, STL, if she can lovingly serve Christ in that way.

Isn't "churchianity" about who gets the glory? And what the giver of the glory gets? Some people spend practically their entire Sunday in church, attending every service. Why? Do they really need five services every Sunday? Or is it to feel good? Or be seen to be there? Maybe those people also give out the hymn books or collect up something afterwards or put the chairs away. Some people like to be chalice assistant, or to read the lesson from the Bible. Why? What's their motivation? To be seen doing it? Or because there's a need that they can fulfil, in part or whole? What do these people do on other days? Do they help those in need, minister to the poor in some way, visit prisons, help out at hostels, etc etc? Does their Sunday church time spill into heartfelt actions during the rest of the week? Does what they learn(?) on Sunday carry through into actions in the days following? What is it that they like about church, anyway? Is it the message, the corporate worship, the being with other Christians and sharing their faith together? Or is it the comforting ritual of the orderliness of a service? Of the sounds, smells, robes? Perhaps such are of genuine help to some people in their faith. Whatever. I see churchianity as being those people who attend church because it's "what they do," but without it having any impact on their day to day life. Who obey rules from the church that were never even hinted at in the scriptures. Corporately, I see churchianity as having rules that don't benefit the congregation. Ministers have to be dressed a certain way. Some people can be licensed to perform certain actions - like chalice assistant, or reading from the Bible. And so on. Who makes these rules? And why? To what purpose? Rules are good. But when rules take over, then they are not good. And thus, churchianity is born.

That was rather good.

In Britain, we nationally have a culty experience with recruitment of young girls for ISIS. There's a famous group of three 15 year old girls who left school and got to Turkey. The whereabouts of one is unknown; one is dead; and the other has become infamous. Shamima Begum was swiftly married to a Dutchman, a convert to Islam; she bore three children, all of whom died very very young. Her husband is also dead. She has been trying to return to the UK since she was about 20. She has been stripped of British citizenship as being too dangerous to allow to return, and is now stateless and stuck in a refugee camp with no prospect of return to the UK. There's a Wikipedia article about her [her alone] and also the attached one about the three friends who ran away. She has now just turned 24 and, in the last nine years, has lived a life that few could comprehend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethnal_Green_trio I honestly don't know how I feel, think, about this woman. I can see what she is reported to have said and done. I wonder how accurate it all is. Has some been made up or embroidered, as a deterrent to others? Is she really the violent person she's painted to be? Is she a person who can be rehabilitated? She was an impressionable, immature 15 year old who had been groomed into thinking a particular way. She acted on that thinking and became deeper enmeshed with her cult ( <>she joined their "Way Corps"). Of her own free will, or was she lured, tricked, compelled into that? Without in any way excusing what she did, I have compassion on the 15 year old child - all three girls in fact - who got groomed, brainwashed, into what they did (who knows really what they were thinking, or what their motivations were?) (and what factors in their home lives came into play?). I even have compassion for how they became more involved. Didn't that also happen to most (all?) of us? We too were groomed into thinking something was good that turned out to be poisonous, dangerous; and some of us got more and more involved, as Penworks did; others of us became part of the WC; yet more others became recruiters (Ambassadors/Way Disciples) etc. How far might some of us have gone, if pushed far enough? Many of our boundaries, especially sexually, were warped beyond comprehension. We weren't pushed into violent acts, but we were introduced to conspiracy theories. We now regret those choices made when we were younger and under the influence of the group. But despite feeling compassion towards these girls, I wouldn't trust them and others of their ilk for a very, very long time. We know how long it has taken for us to get TWI out of our heads, to get our thinking straight. Some indeed still refuse to see. And most here were somewhat older than these three immature 15 y.o. girls. I wonder how many years it would take for them to get ISIS out of their heads - if that's what they want?

Thank you for that honest and brave sharing, Charlene.

In my perusal of CNN this morning; https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/15/us/soldiers-of-christ-south-korean-woman-murder/index.html Horrendous.

HI Alex, welcome to the cafe. Fewer bunfights these days, but still some good chat.

That's hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's something to help deal with those splinters.

Save them from themselves, Nathan? Definitely out of the frying pan into the fire. I can see that "strong leadership and a stirring message" would work well in Fiji and a lot of Polynesian locations. They tend to be very group- or family-oriented, with large extended family connections. It's very hard for individuals to break out of those connections. Very tribal; even if they venture out on their own, they are still subject to unwritten rules and expectations of looking after their families, and are expected to send their wages back to their families. So once the head of a household is hooked in, so the rest must follow. Possibly how early Christianity took hold. Gospels, Acts: "He and all his household believed/were baptised/..."

And yet. Jesus is reputed to have said: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34) This raises a couple of issues. (1) Jesus is asking his father to forgive them. He's not saying he forgives them. And yet: (2) We know that Jesus and his father are likeminded in all things, plenty of references to that. Jesus only does what the father wishes. If Jesus asks his father to forgive, but he himself does not, does that introduce a split personality if God is a trinity and a part of that trinity is saying one thing and another part is saying or thinking something different? That's a nice rabbit hole for trinitarians. Does Jesus have independent thought processes that do not line up with the fathr's wishes? And further: (3) This verse in Luke and the sentiments expressed therein appears only in Luke. No similar reference in Matthew, Mark and John. Many commentaries simply note: "Some early manuscripts do not have this sentence." Hmm. So not much to hang one's hat on, in the forgiveness line.

Have you tried looking on Facebook (try variant spellings of their names), Linked In, and the like? If you try FB, try the names of any friends they might have - they might be FB Friends too - might be a backdoor way of locating who you really do want to contact. You could also try online phone directories (best if you have an idea where they might be living) and there are paid-for services (but not expensive) that can provide a range of possible and you pay to check the one(s) you're interested in.

Some interesting stuff there. But I looked at an old WC notes section, a rant from Craig in about 2006, and I just wanted to yell back at him about all the stuff that was WRONG in his haha "teaching" or rant or whatever you call it. How contradictory in so very many ways. How overbearingly bullying. How demanding everything was and how it demeaned EVERY believer. Seriously unhinged. Not surprising I was so f'ked up when the M&A'd me. Several years of these rants and no ability to say, hey mate, ease up a bit! The documents that I glanced at on the old site enraged me. (Possibly even with cult-brain, they'd have pi$$ed me off badly.) Maybe, sometimes it's good to look back at where we came from, and realise just what prisons we have been released from .