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I don't know anything about narcissistic children, but I know something about the full blown disorder (NPD) in adults. Adults that develop this disorder usually suffered trauma/abuse as children. This abuse is usually by a parent who is an NPD/sociopath themself. Often the abuse is severe neglect or abandonment. It can even be overvaluing the child. (This may seem counterintuitive, but it's the academic term for "spoiled rotten.") The NPD seeks to destroy that which they did not experience. A form of revenge? Envy? I don't know why exactly, but narcissists are attracted to good people who are strong, honest, kind, generous, empathetic, loved and authentic. They didn't have any of that as children. NPDs are incapable of honestly expressing and living those qualities. Others who exemplify and embody those qualities are targeted. And they are then systematically destroyed. Self esteem isn't the primary reason. Empathy is a significant factor.

Wierwille took all these definitions, line by line and word for word, from another source. (Leonard, perhaps?) If you try to put this stuff into practice, one of three things is going to happen. One: You'll delude yourself into believing they actually work. Two: You'll feel ashamed and embarrassed you're the only one who doesn't quite "get it". Three: You'll come to the conclusion it was all a bunch of nonsense all along.

The more I look into things and consider them, the more convinced I become that vpw faked ALL the "manifestations", from start to finish. How he could fake the "utterance" manifestations, we've discussed before. Anyone could make sounds, anyone could claim they're reciting a message from God. Prime the pump first by instructing the gullible public how the things are SUPPOSED to look and sound- even if the results are nothing at all like the real thing- and you're golden. Your only danger is someone catching on- especially if they encounter the real thing or otherwise realize yours don't resemble what the real thing is supposed to look like. It also explains why vpw had an explanation as to why there were 2 completely different types of prophecy, one of which had nothing to do with prophesying. So, teach people to make sounds, teach people to compose a "message from God Almighty", and keep expectations high, and you'll convince them that the sounds and the "messages" both came from God Almighty and not their expectations. This is how it COULD be done. (Start another thread if you want to discuss this further.) How to fake the "information" manifestations is a bit trickier, but it's do-able. Don't overplay your hand, keep it low-key or people will catch on. Periodically pretend that you're receiving Divine Revelation at that moment. Reveal something people didn't know you knew. vpw was fond of listening to the John Birch Society's tinfoil hat conspiracies, then coming forth in private with "revelation" about conspiracies in the US. That's how twi got into thinking 1976 was going to be the end of the US. Did it stop with vpw's death? No- and if you were listening to twi as Y2K approached, you'd know that. That was ANOTHER time the world "ended." Although both times, the world was saved because people were in twi praying, and disaster was averted. (Some people really bought that. Both times. Some of the same people bought that both times. A few people still buy that.) But it's harder to fake Divine Revelation when you don't have enough really good information to run with. So, you make up for it by having accounts of you getting revelation be either general ("he gets revelation") or second-hand with people inventing instances they "saw". You can also add a few "a few years ago, this happened but there are no witnesses" stories. We saw that with vpw's visit to India, where his account was full of miracles, and people loved him- but he never visited nor spoke to them again afterwards, not one word. Other people's accounts of the same trip (like Mrs W) skip virtually all the miracles and all the adoration, and are vague when they're not skipped entirely. So, we got stories like "vpw walked around a racetrack and got revelation showing people's hearts as white or black." As for the "impartation/power" manifestations, those are harder still to fake. vpw had stories circulating about him doing things from people who supposedly were there. When it was time for actual results, vpw fell short. Either he had other people minister healing and so on, or when something went wrong, he screamed at someone for failing to predict problems and so on. There are no accounts of "the tent top was going to collapse from flooding, so he prayed, and all that water just vanished"- instead, someone cut a hole and he blamed people. There's no accounts of "we all got together, the electricity went out, we heard him praying faintly, then suddenly the generators came back to life and there was much rejoicing." Instead, we had him admit he was still standing there. For someone who allegedly gets all sorts of prayers answered in miracles, why didn't he even ASK for one then? The most sensible answer- he knew it was pointless, he knew he wouldn't get answered. Oh, the further away the eyewitnesses were, the more miraculous things happened around him- miraculous healings in India, miraculous snowstorms kept happening to him in the US, and so on. As to the second of those, someone checked at the time, and found there was NO snowstorm at the time- he was caught lying. As to the first of those, the reaction was fascinating. Someone checked afterwards, and there was no snow. They went up to vpw, and said so. This was a man who insisted that he was snowed in, in a city. ALL traffic was STOPPED. NO trains. NO planes. NO buses. Sounds like a blizzard. I've lived through those. (For the record, in NYC, the subways usually can be kept running, even in a blizzard, and I used the subway in any blizzard or snow storm that stopped the buses.) He said this over and over. When someone came up and said there was no snow at all- not even one flake, what is the obvious response? If someone claimed there was no snow in the last blizzard I trudged through, I would be rather emphatic. Check again! I spent most of an hour either standing or trudging, and did a lot of cardio just getting to and from the subway. To say nothing of the 10 hours that followed, all of which were affected by the heavy snow. I would be clear they either were checking the wrong date, or the wrong city. IF vpw had lived through one, his response should have been similar. (It would be like someone trying to tell me the Twin Towers never fell.) What was his reaction? Nothing of the kind! Immediately, he CHANGED HIS STORY. He claimed that there must not have been any actual snow at all, but instead when he tried to arrange passage, he spoke on the phone, repeatedly, to angels who lied to him each time. (So, you can believe angels lied, or you can believe wierwille lied. According to vpw, ALL men are liars.) When it comes to teaching on the other 6, I think that vpw paid close attention to what other people said, and did his best to memorize them and regurgitate them at will. So, he could SOUND like he knew the subject, but that was only because he was RECITING what he memorized. His understanding was about as deep as that of a person who reads a wikipedia page aloud and people think he's an expert on that subject. His knowledge was spotty and intermittent. His definitions changed from Leonard's definitions. Those changes never made anything clearer, they just added syllables and ten-dollar words. That's not the actions of a man trying to make knowledge clearer- those are the actions of a man hiding that he doesn't know what he's talking about! Geer later came along and changed some definitions. In each case, each attempt at least TRIED to make things clearer. That was a man TRYING to make things easier to be understood. (Whether or not his conclusions were correct, I would not fault his intention.) IMHO, in some of the changes, he was successful, and in some, he was not because he let his interpretation guide things. Interestingly enough, in the case of at least one change, he fixed something that I thought was a rather basic problem with the definition. I went back later. That was part of Leonard's definition. Instead of fixing an elementary problem with it, vpw added lots of SAT vocabulary words to it, then taught it. I was a student who hadn't studied that subject under ANY of them, and I realized the definition had a problem- and what it was. vpw TAUGHT the thing for YEARS and never identified it. Why? He was reciting things, and only "understood" them in a rote way. If were forced to explain them using completely different words, he would have been unable. So, if you find vpw's approach is too mechanical, you're probably right. His "understanding" was from a shallow, intellect-only level of book-learning, and lacked completely any actual EXPERIENCE of subjects explaining EXPERIENCE.

Thanks My Friend!! I really appreciate it. I will listen attentively

I'm assuming that you are not finding what you want to know about revelation-and-impartation manifestations right from the bible or personally from asking God. Do you wonder why this could be? Nevertheless, if you or anyone else is able to find an author who has reliable evidence for the working of miracles, healing, faith, discerning of spirits, etc. which truly works for you as well, please be sure to share it on your thread. Thanks.

Well, I traveled to ADV Class 2020 - 2023 and Donna M. taught parts of the book (Dorothy's) during breaks after class, including how to eat an orange with a knife and whether or not to rest your arms on the table. I realized that many believers, especially Africans, were unfamiliar with certain american/latin/occidental manners. But culture is like that, we are all different.

What a cash grab. Just an awful means of providing a written foundation for relentless legalism

Not so sure about that. As an "International," the way I use a knife and fork are very different from the way Americans use these utensils. Dorothy always said that we should keep our own "national" table manners, and eat appropriately - but neatly! We Internationals weren't encouraged to eat American-style.

He might put them in the lockbox, but he'll pretend to pull them out of "daddy's cookie jar".

I'm not at all surprised some "HQ guys" interpreted it that way. When we used it in FellowLaborers. however, that is not at all the message we were expected to draw from it. In fact, it was just the opposite. We were to adapt to other cultures, not expect them to adapt to us. If you're at an event where it's common practice for everyone to eat with their fingers, you should do the same to put others at ease, adapt a "when in Rome" sort of attitude.

“In our study, narcissistic children also felt more comfortable leading peers with low self-esteem.“ Easy prey. How can an NPD, finding himself dumbstruck at his good fortune of amassing such a large group of followers, find the most vulnerable among them? He might mandate his dupes to each write an autobiographic confession of their lives. Their personal histories will be safe in the lockbox. They could mail them to: The Teacher, P.O. Box… ** Never, ever, tell a narc a secret. NEVER. EVER.

There was a little book sold in the bookstore called Christian Etiquette by Dorothy Owens. It was probably about 50 pages or so. It had a lot of advice on things like how to set a table, what fork to use, proper dinner conversation, etc. Most of the trivial details have become antiquated in today's society. The overall concept it stressed, though, remains true. Our "etiquette" should be concerned with making people feel at ease and should never create an atmosphere of stress. I would recommend the book and reiterate it should be used with that thought in mind.

I did hit the NYTimes paywall. I'm very interested. Thanks.

socks! We have a sighting So funny about the parallel elderly groups. We do have an R&R splinter group going on - I do think it must stand for Rest Home and Rehab my take is the brain trust probably all saw the matinee show for The Jesus Revolution and had an epiphany. But the people would rather see the Jesus Revolution than PLAF-T Why? Because Christianity is for the masses not the brasses. And Jesus in peoples hearts is better than a fat lie about “The Teacher” chewed up in 4 different cow stomachs and regurgitated for the world once more. Peace.