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  1. 4 points
    As for motives, since we have so much information on vpw's life and comments, we can trace a relatively clear path, at least in his own words. We know that vpw told the early corps that he considered business, music AND ministry before going into ministry. (Yes, looks like he got into all 3, I know.) So, going into ministry was a CAREER decision, not a calling. We know that he claimed that in his first 2 years in ministry, each of those years, he seriously considered giving up. So, going into ministry wasn't about CONVICTION, but about convenience. We know that he took "Homiletics" or preaching, as his area of study- not "Bible history" or anything rigorous- he picked probably the softest option. When he was into his second year as a preacher was when he first heard the idea that the Bible was the word of God and that he didn't believe it prior to that. (We don't know what he based the first year's sermons on, but it wasn't on the idea that the Bible was really special.) We also know that he inflated his credentials- like when he claimed he took ALL of Moody's correspondence courses, but according to their records, he never took ANY of their courses. (They have records of all completed courses, and there is NO record of him having turned in even one course.) We know that, around 1970 or shortly thereafter, vpw began claiming he heard from God Almighty back in 1942, in a promise that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. We know that, according to him, his first thought when he supposedly heard that was that EVERYONE WOULD LISTEN TO HIM if that was the case. We also know that he's cited snowstorms that didn't exist to punctuate events he later claimed were important. In 1953, he went to a convention where he met JE Stiles and learned from him, later plagiarizing the entire contents of Stiles' book on the Holy Spirit for his own publication. Of that day, he claimed the city was in a blizzard, and planes, trains AND buses were all out. (There wasn't even a single flake on the ground.) When confronted with this, he never claimed anyone was mistaken- instead he claimed that angels answered the phones at the bus depot, etc and lied to him each time. All of that says quite a bit about the man, and that's hardly everything.
  2. 2 points
    While I can't say I agree on ALL points, I agree with Mark that a lot of the doctrine was adapted from Greco-Roman mythology, of shades in the underworld, tortured for eternity. I agree with him and Rob Bell that I don't buy the idea that lots of humanity will be (or are) tortured for centuries or forever. I don't see that squaring the the Bible, and I don't see that squaring with God's M.O. There was a quote, attributed to Mark Twain, where he supposedly didn't agree with it, either. It's one thing to destroy a villain, it is another to punish for a time during his sentence, but to torture forever made no sense to him. (I just don't see "eternal torture for humanity" working on paper.)
  3. 2 points
    In case anyone cares, Mike (a poster who all but worshipped vpw) claimed that AFTER that teaching, vpw's "REAL" last teaching was "The Joy of Service." The "the Joy of Service Transcript" has been posted here twice (posted by dmiller, reposted by me) and can be found if anyone cares enough. It was a verbose COMMERCIAL for twi. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master all three levels of PFAL and serve them that. There are no answers outside the Way Ministry." (The end,) My initial response to it was that this was the closing remarks of a man with an overinflated sense of his organization, and an underinflated sense of all Christians outside that organization.
  4. 2 points
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: "I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out." I'm not aware of anyone whose story had NOTHING but negatives, but some people certainly feel that way after suffering quite a bit in twi. I think vpw had ulterior motives when he DID speak the truth, but it was spoken nevertheless. He benefited people almost accidentally- and partly to bait the hook with some food. I won't say there was NO benefits in the process.
  5. 1 point
    The sad thing is, if vpw had spoken sincerely and from the heart when he said that, it would have been a really good thing. He directed people to read Ephesians 6, starting at verse 10. He read aloud, misreading aloud so everyone reading along could catch the distinction. " 'Finally, my brethren, be strong in vp wierwille." *group 'no'* "Say it LOUDER!" *group 'NO!'* "That's right. You're not strong in vp wierwille. Many of you may have heard God's Word from me, but I didn't die for you." *shout from offside that sounded like VF* "IT WAS JESUS CHRIST!" "You said it, man!" Then vpw criticized people who say to look at this or that leader. "I look at The Word, baby!" Sadly, all of that was show. vpw wanted us to look to vpw, but when the microphones were on, he knew to say the opposite. Who would possibly believe the accounts of the victims, of the abused, when vpw said the opposite IN PUBLIC? Who would imagine vpw could be such a Grade A Hypocrite that he could do that all the time? It sounds ridiculous, and if there wasn't so much testimony from so many witnesses and so many victims, it might not be possible to accept that vpw did it. vpw SO deluded himself into thinking he was "THE Man of God" that- when he was in his final hours of life, he wracked his brain, looking for how he could somehow have "missed it" and failed God so he couldn't Super-Believe into instant health. He looked back on his life, and was unable to find anything sufficient. That was all for himself, alone. Now, THAT'S quite a level of delusion.
  6. 1 point
    Another thing I'd throw into the mix is the give and take aspect of this. Seldom does anyone do anything without thought for what they're going to get out of it. What the outcomes will be. That's natural. Normal. I'm not suggesting that's wrong or even out of the ordinary. Look at Hebrews 12:1, 2 1. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us 2 looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. This is a very clear instruction to look to Jesus (author and finisher of faith) and His example of focusing on "the joy set before Him". Some people choose to go off and live in a cave or to adopt a manner of life that excludes contact with the outside world. A great example of that is prison, "jail". When a person is considered dangerous to his community and unable to live safely in it's influences they're taken out of that society and put in a box where they can't hurt themselves or others. Kind of an extreme solution but it's one that does get used, right? That's not the kind of life Jesus taught us to shoot for - consider Matthew 15:1-3 and then 10... Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. It's a fundamental precept of Christianity to allow the spirit of God in us to do it's work, to lead and guide us in both the will as well as the work that God has for us to do. We are instructed to change our thinking, not be conformed to the reasoning of this age and to rather enjoy the Age of God's Grace in Christ fully. Again - I think there's a range of choices that God allows us to have and to make but to physically shut out the rest of the world in an institutionalized set of traditions and rules ("canon law") sounds like the wrong direction. The Jews had 3 religious, philosophical sects - Pharisees, Saducees and the Essenes. There's a lot of information in links like this one which may provide a spring board for more academic historical sources for you, if you need them. My overall impression, very "global" view of what the Church of Christ is as described in the Bible would certainly allow for those who choose to limit or expand their personal lives to include or exclude marriage and relationships between men and women. I would NEVER assume that to mean that the teacher, pastoral or leadership roles should be narrowed down to exclude them or to expect that having done so they would thrive in such a narrow habitat. It's just counter to everything I read. Selah....
  7. 1 point
    That teaching tape is from March 1985.....the last Sunday teaching of victor paul wierwille. He died two months later. Wierwille always took to the podium near March 17th....in honor of his older brother, Harry Ernst Wierwille's birthday. In fact, twi made a tradition of it after H.E. died in the Fall of 1977 when vpw instigated the "Burn the Chaff" [travel light] weekends in 1978 and onward. If I recall correctly......this teaching "The Hope" was sent out as a *tape of the month* and long-standing wayfers treasured it for its significance of being wierwille's "last teaching." And, then....it was doubly significant, because he taught "The Hope" and died two months later. So, JJ.........you have in your possession one of the most special, treasured, spiritually-significant, super-duper tapes OF ALL TIME.
  8. 1 point
    We saw the Epicureans and the Stoics in Acts briefly- where the Epicureans felt the key to happiness was to indulge freely, and the Stoics thought the key to enlightenment was to deny the flesh and all worldly pleasures. We were never told to follow EITHER as an example, or that EITHER was recommended or even a good idea. However, it seems like some people will always think the key to spirituality will be to completely deny the flesh. It hasn't worked yet in all of history, so I doubt it's going to start working now.
  9. 1 point
    Some years ago, I read a news story about Afghanistan. There's some super-repressive sub-culture there that doesn't allow pre-marital sex, but it also doesn't allow flirting or, apparently, even MEETING the opposite sex. It seemed obvious that they were attempting to prevent pre-marital sex, but in the process, they disallowed even conversation or being in the vicinity of each other. One side-effect was unexpected, at least by me. With a complete vacuum of women in any manner whatsoever in their lives, some of the men were paying some adolescent (teen) boys to dress up as women and, basically, pretend to be women. The boys got attention and got gifts. They also got molested. Rather than provoke outrage, it seemed like their society was used to it and didn't see any problems with it. I'm not saying this EXACT thing happens whenever ALL sex is disallowed and marriage is not allowed (de facto like in Afghanistan or de jure like the RCC clergy), but there certainly seems to be correlations between people doing stuff like this and marriage and every single form of sex is disallowed.
  10. 1 point
    I disagree that candidates go in knowing the sacrifices and difficulties. There's a massive difference between hearing a teacher state the required "sacrifices and the difficulties" and knowing them as a result of having to deal with the inevitable changes in one's desires resulting from hormonal changes as time goes on. Maybe the RCC should openly study and explore the practice of voluntary castration with candidates for the priesthood. If THAT sounds bizarre, perhaps that's because failing to grasp the enormity of the challenge of celibacy has been such a humongous catastrophe.
  11. 1 point
    More or less, that's what I said (I used more words, not less. ;) )
  12. 1 point
    Amen.......[on the bold-faced statement above]/ You know........I rarely have agreed with TLC on much, but on THIS.......I AGREE. If twi had stuck to scripture.......ie. "the simplicity that is in Christ.........it would not be circling the drain today!!!
  13. 1 point
    Now you're getting into church politics. Probably leads to a rabbit hole that would be counterproductive here. However, like waysider suggested, perhaps you could clarify/expound on that first sentence. Given generally accepted definitions of sodomy, why would you be concerned about what goes on in private/behind closed doors for a married couple? And how is that a "matter of [your] faith? "These guys at the Vatican...", I assume are not robots. They have hormones coursing through their bodies just like anyone else. Hormones are generally more powerful than "commitments" made without understanding said hormones. Also, it occurred to me when reading the article Socks linked, that the possibility exists that adopting the practice of celebrex... er, celibacy may have had an economic factor. As we know (in not nearly enough detail), the RC church is mega rich. Nevertheless, the underlying social sickness that has been exposed in the last 50 years can easily be traced to "the discipline." IT is unnatural, perhaps even more so than sodomy, IMO.
  14. 1 point
    This is a baffling statement. Can you expound a bit more?
  15. 1 point
    My view is that speaking in absolutes about veepee is probably not fair or reasonable, but it seems fair and reasonable to surmise that he ultimately got around to having ulterior motives.
  16. 1 point
    IDK. I think applause at the end is thankfulness...that it's finally over.
  17. 1 point
    Twinky, I think that's excellent advice and insight. Over the years I've seen both in myself and others that when it comes to the Bible we kinda bring who we are "to it" when we read. And it's that way with anything we do, isn't it? I do think, without being "elitist" about it, that we'd all benefit from what you're saying and so much misunderstanding comes from just not knowing or following simple stuff. Plus, everyone may sit that and read and listen and nod and say "amen" at the right times but two people can have very different understandings of what they're hearing and reading and just as certainly different applications of the "same thing" into our individual lives. I've been studying Bullinger's scope of scripture again, the structure stuff. I always enjoyed it and it's an area that PFAL didn't get into much but that fits with reading for context. Structure really highlights the literary side of the Bible, as a written book. The ups and downs, the flows, and how it follows and fits with the language itself. The repetition of an idea and how it's contrasted, how it's expressed throughout a chapter, a "book" and then across the entire Bible. I see it revealing meaning and emphasis without adding much need for interpretation or interpolation. And it's something that doesn't seem lost between languages, Greek, Aramaic, English. It follows the content, the ideas, and exposes the essence of the meaning of what's written just by reading it. I'm working on an old project with it, the similarity to music and various musical forms. We know music is written and follows a wide range of rules and reg's, depending on the type, etc. I'm not an expert in all of them by any means, but the fundamentals are pretty easy to understand even if you just listen to music and know what you like. Musicians of all stripe have always used improvisation and very effectively for compositions where the core of the score is written, say a melody or even an idea, and the actual notes then played may vary in performance. Mozart used improvisation in his composing, and sometimes would draw from initial sketches he'd either write out or have in his head when he performed those pieces. This is done all the time in music when someone takes a piece of music and produces different versions of it, "improvises" in it. Achieving different end results while using the same harmonic structures is done all the time, as well as using different harmonic structures against a melody.....it's "different" but it's a product of the melody or even a re working of the melody itself that fits into the original composition in it's entirety. The Bible does some of the same things, which makes sense really - both are written forms of communication that have a living expression to be heard and seen. So it follows that they'd be similar. * I meant to add - I think that's how the "truth" of "God's Word" is mean to be lived in each individual life. People get really hung up on the nuances and every little detail being exactly this or that, in the human rendering of what we learn about in the Bible and are given by God. It's like saying, if we were dancing everyone would have to do the same routine, the same steps and move the same way as each other at the same time. Regimented, coordinated, controlled. Planned. Expected. Repetitive. (Boring?) I believe it all gets lived out in a much broader, grander scale of activity, where the basics are rendered in a diversity of ways that is vast in number, as each of us individually renders out "the living Word", the "logos" - which is how the Bible describes the way the spirit of God works in each of us in the "Body of Christ"...."members in particular".... We contain the vast glory of God when we insist on regimentation, and we constrain the ability of each of us to naturally/spiritually produce a living performance of God's Word when we do. So on the one hand we adhere to the rules and regs....and on the other we then produce our works, our "fruit" which then has the qualities of joy, peace, etc. that the Bible takes about, "fruit of the spirit", not just feel good stuff but real stuff. Thinking of it like music, and performance, and improvisation, it comes to life for me.
  18. 1 point
    Etymology (= where it comes from, how it's built up) of the word Mortify: late 14c., mortifien, "to kill, destroy the life of," from Old French mortefiier "destroy, overwhelm, punish," from Late Latin mortificare "cause death, kill, put to death," literally "make dead," from mortificus "producing death," from Latin mors (genitive mortis) "death" (from PIE root *mer- "to rub away, harm," also "to die" and forming words referring to death and to beings subject to death) + combining form of facere "to make, to do" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put"). Religious sense of "subdue the flesh by abstinence and discipline" is attested from early 15c. Sense of "humiliate, chagrin, vex" is recorded by 1690s (compare mortification). Related: Mortified; mortifying. Note the "root words" Mer- and Dhe- or Facere, and how these have developed and compounded to make one word over millennia; there are quite a number of steps to get to the word we use today. (See, you can do word studies in English, too!). The kids' word "deadify" sums up "mortify" exactly. If you'd known that the "mort" or "mer" part meant, or had connotations of, Death, you'd've understood this right from the beginning. Perhaps you did, but chose to accept someone else's explanation (more fool you!). If you know any French, you'll recognise the word "mort" meaning dead. Or if you know any Spanish, you'll recognise the word "muerto" meaning dead. French and Spanish are more directly from Latin than English is, so these are also worthwhile languages to study (along with "improve your English"). If you find a new word in the English language, it's always worthwhile checking its etymology and this will definitely help you expand your vocabulary. You will see one, two or maybe more "root words" (as above) and you will then begin to be able to recognise these "roots" in other words. If you aren't willing to put this effort into understanding your native tongue - don't waste anybody's time showing off your puffed-up ego in expounding on ancient Greek words.
  19. 1 point
    Good article; thanks for posting. See the recommendations for looking at several English versions (or if you're a non-native English speaker, perhaps in your mother tongue instead or as well). I'd like to suggest that people UNDERSTAND ENGLISH WELL. That means: having a good vocabulary - the wider your vocabulary, the more you will pick up nuances. Have a good understanding of grammar - the more you understand that, the better will be your understanding of the "actual" and the hypothetical, How many tenses in English do you know the names of, for describing past events? Or describing future events? (Hint: there's more than one of each!) What about the subjunctive? It was perfectly obvious to me right from sess.1 of PFAL that VPW didn't understand English grammar - I "forgave" him that, thinking that the entirety of the video teaching was perhaps more important to understand. But I later heard those same mistakes made by purported "teachers" and ultimately at twig level. I say: if you don't understand your native language, your mother tongue, and its nuances - how the heck do you think you understand a foreign language, and an ancient one at that, with all its nuances? Think of the differences in meaning between "I walk down the street" and "I am walking down the street." "I walked down the street" compared with "I have walked down the street" and "I was walking down the street" "I will walk down the street" and "I shall walk down the street" and "I will be walking down the street" and "I shall be walking down the street." "I may walk down the street" and "I may be walking down the street." "I may have been walking down the street" and "I could have been walking down the street." These are all legitimate tenses, some mean more or less the same depending on context, but others have big differences in meaning. You probably understand the differences without being able to articulate them clearly. You may know the names of some of the tenses, or you may not. The choice of auxiliary verb can make a big difference too. There are many other tenses in the English language. Other languages have different tenses that are not directly equivalent to those of the English language. That's before we get into things like word order, and different moods - are the words you read meant to be taken at face value, are they ironical or humorous, do they in fact mean the opposite of what they say? And spelling. And words that have more than one meaning in English, of which there are several examples in the Bible. And words that look a lot like another, but are widely divergent in meaning ("false friends," these are sometimes called). Seriously, folks, improve your knowledge of English and you will improve your understanding of not just the Bible but a whole host of other things as well. Those scholars and academicians who have worked on Bible translations have a wide vocabulary and a wide understanding of grammar in English and the other language(s). That's why they were chosen for the task. Undoubtedly there were disagreements, or at least discussions, over the choice of English words or phrases to express Greek words or phrases, according to the translators' own vocabularies and understandings. You can best respect their efforts by improving your own ability to comprehend.
  20. 1 point
    I simply think we were poorly and pathetically taught. The Splinter Groups simply cannot admit they were taught wrong. Session One? Piffle.....what corrects wrong teaching? Hah! Right teaching. And, that ain't coming from The Way no matter the Era. I also think that's why splinter groups keep splintering further and further into the Wild Blue Yonder: It appears to me that the Splinter Groups believe they were taught correctly, ALMOST, but, like a Cook, this needs more salt, hmmmm, some more of this, or that. Then, we'll have this Manifestions of the Spirit stuff cooking, our Walk by the Spirit, and the Word will move. Well, I'd love to see that, but, I doubt it. Nope. Sorry. Your Foundation is a mess, IMO, designed poorly, and the exclusion of the Chief Cornerstone was a fundamental mistake. Go back. Make a course correction. Raze your building, and start over, or do some costly repair work. And, costly it will be, I assure you, but better. These daze, my opinion is that if you cannot or will not sincerely try to practice the "Sermon on the Mount," or other sayings of Jesus, then SIT DOWN and SHUT UP. One more thing: Splinter Groups that we may know will never change what they are teaching- they have too much time and effort invested in their writings, publications, events, websites, people, organization, and so forth, to CHANGE their "theological" positions. After all, some have their "doctorates" now, and an honest reevaluation of their positions after 40 years would be nearly impossible it seems. It is out of the question for some to consider that we were instructed so terribly and anemically in comparison to other Fundamentalist Christian groups (if that is one's ilk): Baptists, Reformed Theology, other Biblical Literalists like RC Sproul, Al Mohler, and John Piper- they can dismantle the Ways "teachings" easily because they were schooled well, and ours was developed by a POS who was a shallow thinker, but a good salesman. Oh, let us not forget Dr. John Juedes. BTW, I have seen the claims that they went to Seminary now to explain away, bury, the three brutal years of corpse doggy doodoo brainwashing. An Ex-Way claiming Seminary? Weren't we taught to despise Seminaries? Why did they say this, then? To bolster their authority or credibility? And one of those didn't even know what Eschatology was, and that by abandoning Dispensationalism, as he said he sorta' did, the entire Eschatological viewpoints change or vanish. So much for the critical thinking in YOUR realm of studies. Doctorates? I am very fond of the folks I met in those years, I truly am. Isn't there an adage out there that goes something like "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?" My insanity that led, in part, to my many woes over the last 40 years was just that: trying to get Way doctrine to work. It simply didn't, and, for me, and caused me great harm and loss. Fare Thee Well to all Way offshoots.
  21. 1 point
    Excellent points Skyrider…the word “parasite” came to mind…I firmly believe wierwille/TWI/PFAL etc. are parasitic in nature…from the internet: 1. an organism that lives in or on an organism of another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense. "the parasite attaches itself to the mouths of fishes" · 2. derogatory a person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return. "the capitalist is really a parasite on the workers" My involvement with TWI was an exercise in how to install a filter on your perception. Stick with them long enough and you only see what they want you to see. That’s the parasite’s cloaking device.
  22. 1 point
    You WANT to be a believer? You HAVE to be a follower? ENTER into the world of The Way Ministry's Doublespeak. The language that deliberately obscures. Phrases that use sleight-of-hand to disguise. Descriptions that intend to distort. Definitions that reverse the meaning of words. The Way = The Way International (a follower by twi-servitude) The Way = the Lord Jesus Christ (a follower by making him lord of your life) HERE is how to be a follower of The Way International............. : "The Way is a fellowship of the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the manifestation of the more abundant life. A follower of The Way is filled with and manifests power from on high, holy spirit, and freely avails himself of fellowship meetings for spiritual nurture and growth. The Way fellowship is cemented together by the Spirit of God with each individual believer being transformed by the renewing of his mind according to the Word of God." NOW.......look at the Doublespeak of wierwille's use of phrases and words to define his "ministry": the more abundant life manifests power from on high spiritual nurture and growth renewing of the mind the Word of God Wierwille/twi has obscured and distorted each one of those terms in class presentation (pfal). Is "the more abundant life" physical or spiritual? Wierwille "looked around" and states (in pfal) that he SAW PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT CHRISTIAN living more of an abundant life that the church-going Christians. Is "manifesting power from on high" simply speaking in tongues in a believer's meeting......or is it a DAILY walk with your lord, mediator and savior Jesus Christ doing that which is pleasing to our Heavenly Father, loving and serving Him? Is "spiritual nurture and growth" defined by taking all of twi's classes and THEN, upgraded classes years later? Or, is it more deeply embedded in a deep, trusting spiritual relationship with our Father walking in His love and His light? Is "renewing of the mind" simply a matter of adhering to pfal material and twi's claptrap? Or, is it a moment-by-moment process (enlightenment?) of trusting Him and letting His will be done in our lives (as a vessel - pouring out in service to another)? Is "the Word of God" merely the teachings and plagiarized material from victor paul wierwille? Or, is it far-superior and excellent in power, deliverance and fulfillment as prophets of old spoke as they were moved via the holy spirit....whereby we have some of that mighty Word of God today in the written holy scripture? I believe that some of what I was taught in pfal/twi had a basis of truth in it...... I believe that much of what I was taught in pfal/twi was distorted, obscured and twisted..... I believe that most of what I was taught in pfal/twi wilts in significance to what is truly "power from on high"....and truly, The Word of God. .
  23. 1 point
    Everything in the cult was a sequence..........of followship. By the mid-90s........the insanity of followship went to new heights. To be 'active' corps.........now, they HAD to be full-time, all-the-time, employees. Attend Martindale's New Advanced Class (cough, cough).......wierwille stuff "old wineskins" Every adv class grad and corps grad needed this upgrade to maintain good standing in cult Get rid of ALL old ministry music tapes from those who left twi......you might get possessed Plan to go two-by-two........having a believer with you strengthens your power to prevail Re-take all classes.....Foundational, Intermediate, Advanced....to have "present truth" Dial-A-Sunday-Service.....listen to HQ-led teacher, stand up, sit down, sing, clap.....followship folly In fact.....be sure to witness to a new person and bring him/her to this Dial-A-Sh!tty-Service But the Ultimate Kick-Azz Followship Doctrine of All......Plan & Submit Your Weekly Schedule in 15-minute increments .......Yep, follow your submitted schedule staying within the framework of those preconceived 15-minute slots A believer is a follower......and a good follower is a good believer. Indoctrination Complete. TWI never had a corps leadership program. It was ALL a fabricated scam. Today's splinter groups have the SAME plan...........followship masquerading as fellowship.
  24. 1 point
    Context is a significant part of PFAL - how the Word interprets itself. Immediate, extended context, etc. History, geography and culture provide contexts in which to understand the Bible, and that was prominent in PFAL. One of the biggest takeaways from PFAL for me was to read the Bible. I'm looking at my 1970 hard bound copy of Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" right now and it contains a huge amount of information and guidance for anyone wishing to begin layering their reading and study skills. I recommend it to ex Wayfers when we're talking about this and that if I find they haven't ever read it or dove into it. The connection between Ethelbert and VPW will be obvious to PFAL grads who learned much of the same material in PFAL as a means to understanding Christian faith as a living reality. It's interesting to me that the academic approach of EWB was first used then dropped by VPW for his own rhetorical style of teaching PFAL. I think we must accept that fact that when working with a written form of communication that is first constructed from ancient samples written in an ancient language that must then be translated through several layers of refinement to get a modern version, the outcome must be an interpretation. When anyone says that a translation is accurate to the original and "according to usage" as VPW said, interpretation is required. Yes yes yes, let's let the Word of God speak for itself. Once we construct a complete sample that we believe represents the best possible record and translate it into English, a language made up of many many other languages, the result will require interpretation. The net results can look like the unwieldy statements of an Amplified NT, not due to an over wrought torturing of the content but because it may require many english words to specify anything close to an exact translation of the Koine Greek words. "As the spirit guides" indeed, but where words can be vague, the heart gets the impression of the message clearly. Thus, the "spirit" teaches us, as we read and study. How well VPW or anyone else uses any of these tools is a measure to be discussed but where I see that article putting a person is to crack the book, allow others to guide and help you learn and don't go the "sophomore's shuffle" route just because we have some tools to use, whether we're newbies or elders. Stay meek, read, and enjoy. Article quote: "I’m not saying that Greek word studies are bad, or totally unnecessary (after all, we are not native Greek speakers). But unless you do them properly, they’ll simply give you the illusion of knowing something when you really don’t. Most of the time you’ll do better to simply compare a number of solid translations like the NASB, ESV, NIV, and NLT. After all, the people who translated these Bible versions understand Greek far better than you or I ever will. So don’t throw away their expertise. And as you read, pay attention to the context. An ounce of good contextual analysis is worth a pound of poorly done Greek word studies. (I'd add don't rely solely on a single teacher or source either, over the long haul. I do have some basic fundamentals that I feel solid about and I can move amongst many different sources without fearing anything at all. After all, if I ask God for Him to teach me, is He going to fool me and lie to me? Of course not. So there's every reason for trust and confidence - it''s HIS Word, not mine.) "So take your English Bibles and read carefully. When you do word studies, avoid the root fallacy, take advantage of scholars’ expertise, and remember that context is king. In short, read, reread, and reread again. It’s not as flashy a study method, and it probably won’t make you feel (or look) as smart, but it’ll give you much more accurate results." (Actually by reading and working context, you'll probably look very smart because you'll know what's in the Book, and not just lists of verses organized by topic, in your head. Few are those who say they "believe the book" who have ever read it in it's entirety. Not reading it all and saying I believe it would say something about how I believe. It. The book thing......It's worthwhile to do so, I highly recommend it, taking one's time, "no worries mate", just enjoy the ride. )
  25. 1 point
    All too true. Re: going to the Lord in prayer. What we were encouraged to do was recite our lift list while speaking in tongues. In retrospect, it now seems more like we were trying to invoke some sort of magical spell.
  26. 1 point
    That's the thing about being ensnared in a cult for 30-45 years.......all of your "support systems" are cult-related whereas business/community systems are deemed "worldly" or anathema. So, even though you exit mothership-cult....victims are grasping at any support floating by and voila, another splinter cult just happens to extend a "helping hand." And, for many.....all those years of distancing themselves from "earthly family" doesn't help. Or, by now......parents are deceased and relatives are complete strangers. At gatherings, weddings and funerals.......it is quite possible that you bump into two or three ex-wayfers who are each involved in a different splinter cult. But hey..... as long as they're not involved with *The Way International* then they lock arms with fellow-comrades who "saw the light and got out." The real rogue individuals are NOT those who have no affiliation with any splinter group but ........THOSE WHO PULL THE CURTAIN BACK ON WIERWILLE'S PLAGIARISM, PROPAGANDA AND PREDATORY WAYS TO SPOTLIGHT THE CON. Welcome to GSC......where the rubber meets the road, Defiant Rogues Inc.
  27. 1 point
    Really appreciate this and other posts I have been reading on this lovely Sunday a.m. Helping me to continue to detach and let go of the fantasy of the ideal safe place I naively took shelter in so long ago... Yes, God and Jesus are the only fully Safe Places.
  28. 1 point
    This was Jim Doop's last post. .......[bold-faced for emphasis]
  29. 1 point
    YES.......it could easily be deemed that the majority of wierwille's "ministry years" (1941-1982) were barely "scraping by." 1941- 1957.......pastoring at Payne, OH and Van Wert, OH. 1948......with vpw heading to Pikes Peak to receive his degree-mill doctorate from Pikes Peak....his Dad bought them a new 1948 Chevrolet. With 3 kids in tow.....Dotsie claimed in her book that it was "an exceptional summer" [driving to Colorado and then, to Camp Farthest Out in MN] Sep 1955 - Apr 1956......sold some of their furniture and vpw's car to make this India itinerary [mounting further dissention with the church board] Dec 1957......moved to rental house at 649 South Washington Street in Van Wert, OH [... rent payments - - vpw was 41 yrs old] Jan 1958 - March 1972 .........arguably, "struggling years" by most measures. ........by November 1958, wierwille is pleading in his mailer for 6 more families to faithfully tithe and help him meet expenses. ........for several years, wierwille was traveling from state-to-state to run his [Leonard's] foundational class to church-goers. ........and, people were endangered helping the wierwilles move IN A BLIZZARD ...... in February 1961, to the wierwille homestead. ........when pfal was filmed in 1967, every aspect was on a strict time limit...studio, lighting, furniture.....because of MONEY CONSTRAINTS. ........in fact, the desk wierwille used was "purchased" for this filming......and then, RETURNED after the filming was done ........and......in was this LACK OF MONEY that caused vpw to make foolish decisions and burn his eyes during filming!!! Much more could be added to this list. All throughout Mrs. W's book.........the lack of money, i.e. "scraping by" comes to the foreground of nearly every decision made. Why March 1972? What changed? It was the coup of Steve and Sandi Heefner in March 1972, during the Rye, NY advanced class......when things REALLY changed for vpw (imo). "The Way East (Heefner) and the Way West were INDEPENDENT 501(c)3 corporations, completely and legally separate from wierwille and new Knoxville. When Wierwille threw them out under the cover of his AC show, moneyhands, coward allen and dictor paul formed a new corporation The Way of NY, which was "owned" by new knoxville now. The Way East also included the states of New England, NJ, DE, & PA. All those states were also "incorporated under "the Way international" as subsidiaries in their own right, thus accomplishing the corporate takeover of The Way East with the "M&A-ing" of the Heefner's and consolidating all control to dictor paul and the BOT, which at that time was Ermal and Harry. Remember, those three were the ONLY official members of TWI at that time." [ from DWBH -- "Mark n Avoid" thread] So, yeah......most all of wierwille's "ministry years" were LEAN YEARS and the scales tipped in his favor when wierwille confiscated Heefner's and Doop's INDEPENDENT 501(c)3 corporations as his own. Jim Doop posted here at GSC years ago that wierwille blatantly lied and went back on his word.....85% of abs was to stay in The Way West and 15% was to be sent to the way international. Wierwille and TWI have whitewashed all of this......to exalt vpw's image and legacy. Splinter cults whitewash it as well.........the leaders are hanging onto wierwille's coattails for dear life (and livelihood).


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