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Or, for something completely different along these lines, there's a very compelling argument for doing away with bible study altogether in a "shocking" book called The End of Biblical Studies (gasp!) by Hector Avalos, PhD. Prometheus Books. 2007. Just sayin … there is an alternative viewpoint for those interested in questioning the value of continuing to hammer away at biblical texts in hopes of recreating "the original." Even if we did reach that goal, what would we have? A text that still contains contradictions (four different viewpoints in the 4 gospels), violence against "unbelievers," in the Hebrew Bible, condemnation of homosexuals, subjugation of women, etc. Just sayin … let's take a look at bibliolatry and get honest about that. Perhaps this is a topic for the Doctrinal thread. Sigh …

You know why I come here? To be judged by people who don't know who we are, why we're here, what motivates us. I love being called bitter by a total stranger making a blanket statement in a drive by post. Welcome to Greasespot, Your Honor.

As many of you know, I stepped back from active management of GSC a few years back. I left the management in capable hands. I had a nervous meltdown. Disagreement turned into verbal battles. I always wanted this place to be a safe haven for those that left or was in the process of leaving or was thinking of leaving. This would be a place of solace. Lately, for some, attacking seems to be the color of the day. Why the need to attack? Why the need to call people names. My attitude has been if you are getting in vicious place, step away from the keyboard! The internet is rampant with vicious bravery behind a wall of anonymity I only have one word to those guilty of this, Stop! At least on this site. And as an aside, the hosting company has been double billing me, we are trying to work this out. If the site is not accessible in the next few days, don't worry.

Hello all, This is my first comment after finding these forums a few weeks ago. I was born in 1982 into a family that was part of TWI; my parents were part of a twig group in the Houston area. From what I understand, my family and a big chunk of people in the Houston area broke off and started a splinter group sometime in the mid to late eighties. My mom and stepdad kept most of that info from us, but I remember them warning my sister and I not to answer any questions regarding PFAL materiel if someone came knocking at the door. The day I turned 18 I left and never went back to a fellowship. This caused a great stress between my mother, stepfather, and I and I went nearly a decade without talking to them. Between then and now I have put in work to try to build a relationship with them, but it is a very small slice of my life that I can share with them or that they can share with me without treading into religious waters. Despite that, I felt like I have been on the right track with them showing up for weekly dinners and starting to get to know them a little bit again. That is, until my sister died last month. It was a horrible accident and she was far too young in her mid 30's. I took on the bulk of the funeral planning, as hospitality and events is my profession. It was really difficult to plan because it forced me to negotiate with them about how much their religion would be involved in the service. We decided on a non-secular event hall, which was easy because they would have had an issue going anywhere with any other kind of religion involved. The tough part is that they wanted their reverend to speak for an hour of the 2 hour service. I fought tooth and nail to get it down to 15 minutes, which they agreed to. He spoke for 40 minutes. It was so difficult sitting through his angry sermon, where he was talking about drinking blood, speaking in tounges, and then pitching people taking PFAL classes. WTF. I left so angry. For the first time I started examining how TWI and their offshoot really effected me and the people I love in my life. I grew up feeling extremely emotionally and physically isolated from the outside world, and I am just now (in my late thirties) figuring out how to come to terms with that. I am married and have a good job, but that has taken serious work. I have a hard time really opening up and connecting with people although I yearn for it and work for it daily. My dad was excommunicated after he and my mother divorced (she cheated on him with their TWI marriage counselor). This probably had to do with my dad being gay :P. He hid his sexuality from my sister and I because he knew it meant we wouldn't get to see him. He never missed a child support check even though he was broke and despite constant pressure from my mom/stepdad and TWI pressuring him to cut ties. Once he finally came out, my mom and stepdad really freaked out because they are convinced he has devil spirits. For just under two decades they have had a cool relationship with each other, only talking when it had something to do with my sister or I. During the funeral they were cordial during the planning process, but cool during the funeral. Anyone former TWI or current offshoot would ignore my dad and his partner of 25 years. People who he has known for decades just pretended he wasn't there. After I spoke my heart at the funeral speaking about my sister and her life, I started getting the same treatment. It turns out I offended people by talking about her dad and his partner in the eulogy. That made me feel angry and sad. It also made me feel proud for speaking my mind to a group that didn't want to hear from me. Anyway, I am sorry for the word soup and I hope that I haven't gone way off topic here. I am just looking for information now. I am researching the people who I know are in their group now. I want to figure out what offshoot they are a part of and where all this PFAL money is going, considering it isn't supported by TWI anymore. My parents hold classes and travel regularly to hold and attend retreats. I am dying to know how big the splinter is that they are a part of. I want to learn more and face this. Does anyone know of any major offshoots that have a strong presence in the Houston area? Am I allowed to list names in this group to see if any of you know any of these people? Thank you all. It has been fascinating learning about your experiences.

I do have something to say on this topic. In 1995, as part of an elaborate ruse to terminate communication between me and someone in another state who, unbeknownst to me at the time, was being abused by clergy, myself and my husband were asked to excuse ourselves from fellowship to put ourselves under the care of Bob Darnell, but then escalated to "not being welcome at the Way" by Ohio Limb Coordinator Dave Patterson under the most dubious of circumstances. We were totally blindsided, having not done anything unseemly at all. We would get information here and there as to what was going on, with each new doctrinal atrocity being taught absolutely flooring us. We even sat in our car for six nights on that road that Bob Wierwille lived on to listen to the ROA 95 teachings on AM radio, stunned. We lived in St. Mary's, and when someone from HQ would encounter us in public, they would run away on the other side of the street or another aisle in the store, with the exception of a very few people who obviously were not totally buying into Martindale's shiite. Finally in Spring of 1996 word got to us that Martindale was talking crap about someone at Corps Night and that John Shroyer had enough and got up and walked out. Well, John was ordained and recognized as Corps but he never was in residence, and I had always admired him because he was to me always the epitome of a real pastor. A down to earth guy who took care of people, didn't preen and fawn, didn't flaunt and vaunt himself. He had been made to give up his great house in St Mary's that he had for years and sent to Florida, where really good close friends of mine raved about how well he cared for people. I was so glad that someone finally had the balls to stand up to the maniacal narcissist. I phoned John and he told me that Mike Magel, of Premiere Labels and Word in Business reknown, and Frank Connerty, of Prison Outreach had also been on Martindale's smack talking list, and gave me their numbers. It was great because Frank was right there in St. Mary's. Well, as you know, those three guys started a splinter group, the topic of this thread. The group is the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry. But I was there from the very start, and I can tell you at the beginning it did not follow the track that John Lynn, and Vince Finnegan, and Dan Moran, and a lot of these other clowns took. For starters, it wasn't John's idea. He and had Maryann moved back to Ohio. At what point, I don't know- I don't know if they had already been called back when he walked out of the service, because I know that in August of 1996 Bob Moynihan sent out a monthly newsletter in Florida calling John a "Unfaithful Servant" because Gail Winegarner visited us in St. Mary's with his son Fritz and showed it to us. (Gail called Bless Patrol "The Gestapo.") John was working for a water softener company, selling water softener units. To my knowledge, he had always had a job for most of his life, even though he was ordained clergy. Getting back on topic, it was Mike Magel's idea to start a ministry. Premiere Label was the label company he had sold (if memory serves) that he talked about at Word in Business in 1993. When the non-compete was fulfilled, he started another label company, Star Label. He told John that if John wanted to start a ministry, Mike would back him. John said let's just do a fellowship. So, a handful of us started meeting in the lunchroom Star Label every Sunday. We wanted it, there was no hard sell or coaxing. People were hurting because they were getting kicked out and abused left and right. There was a book titled "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church" by Jeff Van Vonderen that John recommended. It really summed up what The Way used to recruit, retain, and abuse followers, and the template is applicable to many types of abusive relationships. Before you knew it, the lunch room was not big enough, a place had to be rented, and people from other states were constantly contacting John. Yes, they made the decision to incorporate, but they also made it flexible, so that if they needed to add or change, they would do it. I was an eyewitness for the first few years, and they definitely kept it real. Of course, my regular involvement predated before all the lurid details of VPW's sexual predation coming out; Kevin and Sarah Guigou first started coming around in late 1997. I was regularly active up until I divorced and left Ohio in February of 1999, when I went to New Jersey and then onto South Africa. After that, I would make it back whenever I was in the states for large scale events or visiting Ohio, getting down to the fellowship center that was built and dedicated in 1998, a modestly sized building. My last visit was in 2006, after a five year absence, and having not seen John for four years since he had visited New Jersey. He passed away a few weeks later. Judging from the website, there seems to be more of an element of rigidity to the group now than there was when he was alive; I remember on the day of the dedication in 1998, him talking about that what was important was how a person lived, and treated other people, and so what if someone believed in the trinity. He said it was okay to believe in the trinity. He used to also make a point of saying it didn't matter if people didn't tithe, that it wasn't a requirement. In 1998 he published a booklet titled "Compassion." something I used to gift people, something no one has ever complained about receiving, regardless of their religion. He also once suggested people read the book "In His Steps" Really, what John posited people do was so opposite of what had been indoctrinated by the Way, and a lot of the splinters. I can honestly say that with him, it was never about the money. PS/Addendum: Hey, Michael Fort, if you ever come here to lurk, I just want you to know that every time I've ever heard Bob Dylan sing "Like A Rolling Stone" for the past 24 years, I thought of you, because I knew your day was going to come. And Oh, By the way, fornicate you.

I’m so !$#%ing proud of you Leah. You’ll find your freedom in unconditional self love. Keep going sister, you are not alone.

That's the thing about being ensnared in a cult for 30-45 years.......all of your "support systems" are cult-related whereas business/community systems are deemed "worldly" or anathema. So, even though you exit mothership-cult....victims are grasping at any support floating by and voila, another splinter cult just happens to extend a "helping hand." And, for many.....all those years of distancing themselves from "earthly family" doesn't help. Or, by now......parents are deceased and relatives are complete strangers. At gatherings, weddings and funerals.......it is quite possible that you bump into two or three ex-wayfers who are each involved in a different splinter cult. But hey..... as long as they're not involved with *The Way International* then they lock arms with fellow-comrades who "saw the light and got out." The real rogue individuals are NOT those who have no affiliation with any splinter group but ........THOSE WHO PULL THE CURTAIN BACK ON WIERWILLE'S PLAGIARISM, PROPAGANDA AND PREDATORY WAYS TO SPOTLIGHT THE CON. Welcome to GSC......where the rubber meets the road, Defiant Rogues Inc.

Published on YouTube, May 28, 2019 Maybe the R&R group would be interested in knowing whether there really is something to restore.

I entered Nursing School in 1990, and began working as a GN in 1992. I went on to get certified in Wound care/Ostomy (WONC), Nephrology (CNN) and Psychiatric Nursing Pharmacology. I was also an OR RN. Best educational and career decision I ever made!

I was in the Ministry from 75 onward, knew you as the Trunk coordinator, I know that when his sister and brother in law Elaine and Troy Watkins left the ministry around 86 John and she were not talking and that yes, he shiite talked a lot of people and was all hard arse. It was a very hurtful thing to Elaine that her brother treated her that way. Once he walked out on Corps night, he approached his sister and apologized and made up with her, and they were reunited, and she and Troy started attending the CFFM services. I'm not an attendee of theirs, as I said I was there when it started, but it started getting that rah-rah herd mentality and I didn't really get into it. I did see an epiphany in John though, you could see remorse in him for drinking the Kool-Aid. And unlike Lynn, and Finnegan, (who as far back as 2000 was spouting that he could counsel people on how to rid themselves of the spiritual causes of being overweight and PTSD, etc), or Dan Moran, (who I was dragged to his house and it was like being in a 1974 time warp where he collects money and that's how he makes a living), with John starting the ministry wasn't his idea and it wasn't about the money. Like I said, he had a real job. I don't know, he probably had a Rolodex of people to apologize to, really. I'm not rationalizing what he did, it was wrong. I did spend enough casual time with him in real conversations with him though when he was brutally honest about F ups that he regretted to know that he realized that he had bought the farm and had a lot of soul searching to do.

LOL, waysider! Looks like you did! Here’s a modern day example of “language manipulation” for ya! Each year The Washington Post publishes a contest in which readers are asked to supply alternate meanings for various words. Here are some past winners: 1. Coffee (n.), a person who is coughed upon. 2. Flabbergasted (adj.), appalled over how much weight you have gained. 3. Lymph (v.), to walk with a lisp. 4. Gargoyle (n.), an olive-flavored mouthwash. 5. Flatulence (n.), the emergency vehicle that picks you up after you are run over by a steamroller. 6. Balderdash (n.) a rapidly receding hairline. 7. Testicle (n.) a humorous question on an exam. 8. Pokemon (n.), a Jamaican proctologist.

Y'know, on that general topic of what-said-versus-what-real, Penworks put the final stamp on something I'd realized about the earlier years in the Way's growth, the period right before and after 1970... In her book she described her own experiences as an early participant and then Corps member and the very real struggles that she encountered, and in so doing refers to the similar experience of the others around her, many of whom were developing somewhat mythical reputations about what they were doing, they're "believing" and the "results" they got "operating the principles" of the "class".....stories about "classes coming together" and great things happening when they would go out on assignments proliferated when in reality if you were around during those periods what you really heard about was how valuable something was for them - what they'd learned, the great personal healing they'd experienced, how powerful it all was to "see God Working" in their own lives, etc......which may or may not have been fully true and would be perfectly fine as far as that goes but it very clearly got blown up into much larger stories of outreach and growth .....later as these same people rose up through the ranks they continued to be held up as models of success even to the point of using it as a lever to denigrate and step over others they likely considered competition to their own ascendancy and most importantly their elevated reputations. I would say that as the years rolled on it became apparent that most of these earlier "heavies" never exhibited the "signs, miracles and wonders" in what they did nor in how they worked with others - rather they merely got better at workin' the system, the language, the logic of it all. I met and got to know Penworks throughout that period and always found her to be honest, supportive, and very caring in the most human of ways. Her own sense of self awareness and her own struggles allowed her to take the high road so to speak and to NOT take advantage of others in order to get what she wanted or felt she deserved. This was and is an admirable trait but one lacking in many of her peer group at that time, as we saw unfold over the years. She wasn't alone, there were others but there soon came to be a core group of up and coming "leaders" who were grabbing the horns of the corporation and riding it out. Which aren't all that many years - from the period of PFAL 2.0, (their was an earlier homegrown version that was scrapped for being extremely sub standard) the final professionally filmed version that was in the can as of 1967 till VPW's death there's only 17years of time - and that's the time frame when he finally had enough of his ducks in a row that he felt he could promote PFAL on an international level, doing things like going West to reach the "Jesus Movement" of the '60's. Etc etc. My own experience prior to PFAL coming out to Cali was one where I'd seen quite a bit of real change and "the power of God" through faith in Jesus Christ and the teaching of the Bible, in it's simplest forms. PFAL teaching put pieces together for me but not in an altogether new way, in some ways it simply put structure and a way to understand what was actually happening. In other ways it didn't create a whole new horizon or "produce results" where there were none........ So I was used to hearing stories and of great things happening, I was living some of them myself so it was not merely an academic exercise..........so it seemed a little thin hearing about all these great wonderful things from the first and second Way Corps but never - actually - seeing - exactly - what they were talking about, other than a lot of what you'd call "personal growth". And Stuff. Lot's of "oh God taught me" this and that and loads of "I feel so humbled by what I am learning" kind of stuff buuuuuuuut unfortunately it the Way Corps did not become a "program" designed for spiritual awareness, in action. Kinda ironic. The pattern I see looking back is that for many people there was a period of early growth in and around PFAL and if that took form into a more ritualized set of practices through their Way fellowship, the Way Corps or other programmed participation, the risk increased for it to become fosselized and lifeless. Busy, noisy, chaotic, even beautiful and good sometimes but more man made, mechanical effort than "pneumatikos" engerized and moving through faith. It's a fine line and one that some others might not see but to me, it's there and is where I see the broad swathe of humanity and effort that the Way had for those years. It's exactly the environment that produced an LCM, El Presidente, a man focused on methodology and linear thinking who literally could not see the forest for the tree. My point - is NOT that NOTHING was real and it was all BS, but rather that there was a LOT of BS being shoveled ABOUT those early "heavies" some of whom didn't buy into the marketing and others who unfortunately did, for whatever reasons. This is why I'm so ambivalent about trying to "convince anyone" of anything - I believe those "signs, miracles and wonders" DO and DID occur, and they are to be retold and sharing as those involved are guided and God wishes. They're testimonies to His great Presence and Will. It is happening all around us and all the time. Many ask "why not now" or "why is this or that allowed to happen?" and while there's reasons for and causes, in the end I am not the Creator nor Giver of Laws and in many respects - I just don't know. But I'll continue to tell the story I know and love, as long as theres' one to tell. PEACE!

One errant or misunderstood part of the lady's teaching though. She mentions tithes or tithing. Tithing is misunderstood often and can be used to make money for large religious organizations and individual already wealthy people instead of being used to help poor people. Tithing is NOT required in the New Testament. This was only practiced in the Old Testament under the Jewish religion. Here they mixed faith in God with their political authority. Jesus Christ spoke against this often as these people were not service oriented like Jesus wanted people to be. Instead they wanted power, authority and perhaps even worship of themselves. Here is an example of this with the first usage of tithe or tithing in the New Testament. Here is the NIV version. This version does not use the word tithe. However, obviously the same Greek word for tithe. The NIV simply describes the corruption and greed more of using tithing to gain religious authority and perhaps also using it to make money instead of helping the poor. The word "greed" is used in verse 25.

DWBH wrote: "I’ve never really investigated how the thing was received by the biblical research and textual criticism folks at the academic and university levels. I wonder if anyone outside TWIt or the splinters and offshoots even uses it?? Anyone know?" I recall that the Society of Biblical Literature knew the concordance was published in 1985 because some of the guys on the research team had been attending SBL meetings and talking about it to SBL members over the years. I do not know how it was actually received by those academics, or whether it is used by anyone today, including anyone at TWI HQ or in offshoots. Wish I could be more helpful.

When I was in twi, that meant, "sell the PFLAP class."

Advance = retreat Opportunity = problem Being negative = identifying a problem Think positive = ignore an obvious problem Stand on the word = practice cognitive dissonance

Thank you, Twinky, the Bridge Builders poem is tainted for me too. In addition to it being used to support lcm's leadership, for me it kind of applied to all us corps who were to follow in vpw's footsteps, (not Jesus' foot steps of course). (BTW, I had to take a break from gsp as I was getting too triggered... Remembering to ground and pace myself is helping...) Am still finding it very helpful to gradually read thru certain previous posts to re-enter that old Reality so I can process, heal, and move Up and Out.) Blessings Twinky and All!

I agree with Raf on this. Using my own figurative and not literal language, to see if they have made or make a change, perhaps reach out with your hand like you would with a dog. Then look and see if they wag their tail, while listening to make sure they don’t growl or bark. If they growl or bark then simply walk away. If they wag their tail then perhaps either pet them or wag your tail also.

Special thanks going out for restoring the site.

A) Thanks in advance for the notice that the site MIGHT go down temporarily. It's good to know in advance. B) I'm glad you're here, and I hope you're feeling better. I can only speak for me, but I'll do my personal best not to be combative or disagreeable. It's your show, and it's fair that you set the standards.

Indeed. In terms of scholarship, this particular "theory," that Adam was the real serpent, completely misses the notion of that narrative actually being a creation story. I don't buy the original understanding as having literal aspects that could reasonably be parsed in a manner like the bastardization of biblical study into which we were indoctrinated by twi. It seems to me that in order to even approach taking seriously that Adam was the real serpent one has to buy into the idea that humanity was so freaking incompetent at recording it's creation myths/stories, that it would miss figuring out who Adam really was. That's extremely implausible.

So is the author saying Satan/Lucifer/Dragon/serpent is really Adam and not a fallen angel?

Jennifer Love Hewitt. Selah.

,Hello and welcome, pleroo. First, allow me to offer condolences on the loss of your sister. Kudos for the way you handled the funeral arrangements. As for who has a presence in the Houston area, I'm not knowledgeable of that area at all. I'm fairly certain there are people here who are, though. I can't tell you where the money goes. If they operate anything like TWI did, you can be sure it doesn't go to feed the hungry or clothe the poor. The general rule on names is that it's best, for legal reasons, to semi-redact peoples names in a way that people here will understand who it is but it won't bring up results with an internet search. For example: John Smith becomes something like J*%n Sm!tH. Upper echelon people like VP Wierwille and the like are pretty much fair game, though. Of course, if your reason for stating a name is innocuous, such as looking for an old friend, then that doesn't apply. Someone will probably be around shortly to get you a complimentary cup of coffee and a piece of pie.

Hi Kathy, thanks for the research paper doc. It's an interesting read and well written, will have to digest it. I do think this is a topic that fits into "Open" better than Doctrinal. I've always felt that it's a topic that isn't served well if restricted to religious inquiry although that's part of the discussion, certainly GS. Religious opinion pretty much mangles the topic into a gnarly mass of denial - anything that doesn't seem to fit into the equation is just ignored, denied or considered an attack on the religious position. Many of the world's social issues end up like a pile of dirty laundry with one clean towel on top - they just focus on the clean towel and ignore the dirty ones and pretend there's a pile of clean towels and the dirty ones will be handled in the sweet-by-and-by. Which goes to the basics of life and determining what life is and how best to proceed through it and into the future. One thing striking about Jesus and what He is recorded to have taught is that He addressed two extreme views of life - eternity, God, judgment, righteousness on the one hand and abundant life, a heavenly Father, forgiveness and grace on the other.....one is everything and everyone, the other is personal and individual. "The Word became flesh" indeed - a God who creates universes cares about His creation's individual parts. Jesus taught around and to the basic idea of a male/female partnership, "marriage", and that relationship is used in the New Testament to illustrate the unity of the much larger body of Christ and it's "members in particular"....again, the larger reality being understood in an individual perspective. He also taught that "in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.".....so reality changes in God's plan as Jesus taught it. Or does it? Hard to say, but we have some pointers. I was born heterosexual, I didn't choose it. I don't choose to stay heterosexual in preferences and I don't think I could, or want to, choose to change that. It's just the way I was born and it appears to the natural way the majority of humans are born - some are born male and they're sexual attraction is towards females, serving procreation. "Be fruitful and multiply". But if I didn't choose, why do I have to say someone else did....? Maybe they did, maybe they do, maybe the biology and physical components produce the conditions that allow for it. That personal awareness makes me think that someone could be born homosexual and then have a natural preference for their own sex. That doesn't serve procreation and if I assumed that all sexual preference was primarily designed to serve procreation it would be a major failure. I don't know that though. Procreation is clearly the intention of our species, it's our future so to speak but breaking it down, that doesn't mean that every single human ever born must and should have more children, be a father or mother. If I say that's the ideal state, is it the only permissible state? What's the purpose of God's creation particularly when there may not be any genders of any kind "in the resurrection", as Jesus taught? These are just thoughts, questions. Jesus taught to forgive, to help, to pray and to have faith towards God, as both their Creator and their Father. Can everyone do that? Can anyone accept His act of grace and be "born again" - and if so what is the effect on their human sexuality? When I see people acting out "gay" lifestyles in seemingly outrageous and shocking ways, that's behavior. What does it represent? Every gay person doesn't wear pink tights and dance around the streets in chains. I have no desire to see or participate. But it's behavior, not sexuality - behavior that one chooses to reflect or manifest their sexuality in a way they....choose. Anyhoo....PEACE!!!

Regarding the Queen of The Way Bookstore- I am so, so, so, so, so, so, evil------------

I listened for less time then you but continued to believe it for longer, i.e. around three decades. My waking up on this subject, as on a few other things, started with my best survivor friend's account of a very caring friendship she had had in the past. This friend eventually died of AIDS. But I quickly learned in real time that her testimony, and her friend's caring, was real., mainly thrugh other friends I met through her. And, even before my mnd was really changed, the seeds were planted, unintentionally, by the hate spewed in LCM's rants.

LOL Kathy Niclaus!

I will make a short version of y reply which was in here. But I know my main sexual assaulter is one of those who ignores hurts and carries on with wonderful sounding words and prayers in the one she is in.

I get it- there are actions results that are possible, but the causes are not attributable to what some groups/doctrines might believe. Just like medicine and science has evolved due to experimentation to prove or disprove. The first time I went through the Haunted Mansion ride at Walt Disney World I was an Advanced Class Grad and freaked out just a little, because I knew that I wasn't seeing holograms, and the things floating in the air were not ghosts, but they sure fit the description of ectoplasm. LOL, I did not know about the illusion known as Pepper's Ghost done with glass, mirrors, and mannequins. So, nursing, huh? Did you go to school after you left in 1986? I have a tremendous respect for nurses, and for all disciplines in the behavioral sciences, especially pharmacology. I've seen a life turned around completely by 60 mg of Prozac a day, I am not kidding you.

If there's a moderator who can move it, then I have no objection. In retrospect doctrine did not even blip on my mental radar because being agnostic/borderline atheist, science is the basis for my thinking so I don't take doctrine into consideration unless I am comparing doctrinal views within a particular religion; i.e., Satmar Judaism vs Chabad Judaism, etc. Like you though, I don't believe that devil spirits are the cause of the aforementioned maladies and don't believe in their existence either, but believe them to be a fabrication that are a convenient machination used for the purpose of manipulating and controlling people through fear. Hey! We can be a tag team!

As I've said before, it took me over 15 years to come to this site and then join and post, and I only pop in sporadically and then post in spurts. The same goes for the R&R Facebook group: I had asked to join two years ago and had made candid remarks in one of the original posts and left it. The good thing to come of it was that Lewellyn Hallett friended me on FB. Prompted by remarks I read here yesterday, and remembering what a total smarmy gratuitous kiss up Michael Fort is, I decided to take a peek today. Sure enough, a Way-style sanitizing has been done of all the comments there. Comments have been disabled retroactively for two plus years, deleted except for those that reinforce the desired narrative, and as stated here, everyone just echoes the rhetoric of TWI from the past 52 plus years. Skimming through the intact remarks, I thought that it's a shame it's a closed group. A link could be posted at a poison control emergency site when inducing vomiting is appropriate, because reading those remarks would certainly do the trick. The only detraction is that bulimics would find it accessible. How willfully and deliberately F-ing stupid can people be? I left the group today. I don't care that they have 896 members now and maybe someone I really liked and cared about might be among them, I'm not going to go through the members list. "Oh I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused..." Elvis Costello The Angels Want To Wear My Red Shoes

This is an interesting topic and certainly worthy of discussion. I think, however, it may be better suited for the doctrinal forum. I say this only because Way doctrines are heavily invested in the idea that this and many other characteristics, such as alcoholism, cancer, mental illness and a whole slew of others, are the result of devil spirit possession. So, I think you can predict how this topic may or may not unfold. I'll go out on a limb here and openly state that, not only do I not believe these items are a product of devil possession, I simply no longer believe in the existence of devil spirits. Oops! Did I just accidentally steer us toward the doctrinal forum? My bad.

It all makes sense now.

Not that any GSC readers (unless perhaps they are newly escaped from the fundamentalist cult that is TWI) necessarily still believe or understand this particular manipulation of language to be unique to TWI, but a friend of mine just yesterday had an article posted to rollingstone.com. She (Ashley Sanders) wrote the story last year on escapees from Scientology. The first paragraph reads, Scientologists have special words for the people gathered at a sleek Airbnb townhouse on a mild day in September. They’re irrational, or “banky.” They’re putting off bad vibes, or being “downtone.” They’re full of negative energy, or “chargey,” and they won’t contain it — they won’t “get their TRs in.” But the people sprawling on the living room’s vinyl wraparound couch don’t use those words to describe themselves anymore. Growing up in Scientology, they say they were constantly told to be stoic. Now that they’ve left, they’re tired of jargon about repressing emotion. Instead, they’re looking for new words to describe themselves—new ways to express the psychological consequences of their upbringing—and they’ve traveled all the way to Brooklyn to tell their stories. They’ve already landed on one new way to think about themselves—a phrase that helps illuminate why it’s so hard for them feel things. They call themselves the Children of Scientology. Psychologists call them SGAs, or Second Generation Adults. Aren't tribal idiosyncrasies special?

Thanks for another thought provoking post, Socks. Your post reminded me of why in the hell I decided to go into the way corpse in the first place. It was right after the 2nd and 3rd corpses came into NY, on the first of what were to become known as “Lightbearers”......the in-Rez corpse “practical challenge” to prove the efficacy and reality of the corpse training in the the lives of “god’s most committed” followers of the way. That was in the late spring and early summer of 1973. It was the 2nd corpse (graduating that August) and the 3rd corpse (finishing up their first year in-Rez). Unlike the subsequent “practical challenges” of “Lightbearers” groups, which were primarily made up of getting a piffle class together within a two week visit to an area of “concern, interest, and need”, this group was sent out on the mission to kick ass, take names, and “straighten things out” in the limb of NY, which had been hit very hard by the putsch-like firing of Steve and Sandi Heefener in March of 1972, and the resistance to Boob and Doody Moneyhands having been brought in as the new limb bosses. I had been a “full-time ministry employee” at the way of Long Island from September 1971 through May, 1972. Steve and Laurie Perez were the full-time area leaders for the way of Long Island, which they started from scratch in the fall of 1970. There was an authentic Christian “revival” in lower NY among the young people and hippies of the time. Steve and Laurie sparked a non-stop slew of piffle film classes at a clip of 4 or 5 a month from Suffolk, Nassau & Queens, for 12 months in a row, leading up to the AC in Rye, NY in March, 1972, during which the Heefners were publically slandered and spitefully fired. When the Heefners got fired, the Perezs quit. That left Ed Goebel, John Petty, and me as the remaining full-timers down in lower NY from the 5 boroughs of the City to Nassau and Suffolk Counties. We all decided to quit full-time employment with the way of NY, but, except for Ed, we retained our oversized branches to keep running classes. At that time, the whole “blue form” send all the $$ to HQ thing began too! So, it had been quite a year of fighting and resisting for the lower NY areas by the time the 2nd and 3rd showed up in June of 1973. I was busy getting ready for the ROA ‘73 and finalizing my decision on whether or not to go into the corpse that fall. I got married in July of that year and 2 weeks later was at HQ for summer school and in-Rez. I was playing back- up guitar for Cliff, and lead guitar for Sweet Fellowship (most of whom were going into the 4th corpse) and we backed-up a whole bunch of other groups from the Northeast. Doug MacMullan was 3rd Corpse and he was specifically assigned to work with all us “way productions” people to get us ready for the ROA that year. It was total HELL! LOL! Rehearsals were these 14 hour marathons at Ray Bertine’s parents’ farm in upstate NY, with Mac Mullan telling us to smile, and move, and look at the audience, and, and, and, and........., It was during that week of rehearsals at the farm, that I made the decision to go into the corpse. My thoughts were these: I could see the handwriting on the subway walks pretty damn clearly! If anyone wanted to have any leadership position in the way it would eventually require doing time in da corpse! THAT was made quite obvious to us by vp himself during that month-long Advanced Class in Rye, and by Boob and Doody with their smarmy obsequious worship of all things dictor paul, and by the book bondage”leadership” style. I just wanted to get married, run the Queens/Brooklyn Area Of NY for the way, and make my living playing music. I did NOT want to go be a limp leader or staff person somewhere. I wanted to stay in NY, get married, play music, and “move da word”!! LOL! There’s the language manipulation again!! Well, once we were in the way corpse gulag at HQ, EVERYTHING CHANGED! VP had big plans for us Way Productions keedz that we had no idea about! Then, suddenly, there was an Interim year added!!! WTF?? And then......JCING came out.....and then PFAL ‘77.....and then AC ‘79......and then The 40th Anniversary Year weekends, Living Victoriously, The Installation of Da forehead on the 40th Anniversary, Sound Out ‘84.....WIBAP.......one mega event after another and no time to think about what the hell we were doing other than we were “just moving the word”!! Well that wound up a big bust! LOL! Point of it all being, I never went into the way corpse to be a lifelong ful-time “Minister”! I just wanted to get married, run a branch or two for the way of NY in the City, and play music. I only wanted the corpse so HQ would leave us alone in NY! Leave us alone to run classes, glorify Jesus, play music, have fun, and live life! But, dictor Paul had other ideas. He manipulated the meaning of “a lifetime of Christian service” into a lifetime of indentured servitude to his personal perverted peccadilloes and pathological illnesses. I pity the fool. Thanks again for another good post Socks. You rawk!

For the record, the book has not changed my world view that much, or my political views at all. But it has made me more able to move with confidence toward my goals.

"retemory" was a portmanteau word mixing together "retain" and "memorize" because twi had to have it's own word for memorizing something. Saying you "retained" what you memorized is needless. It's like saying you have to mention you ATE something that you DIGESTED. It demonstrated a lack of understanding of what it meant to memorize. "Cop out" became really popular once 80% of the people got up and left at once in 88-89. They needed a slur to slap on the other Christians who were doing all the same things as them but not with the same social organization, so they were "copped out." "The Best" - It's shocking how dissatisfied the cadre at the top of twi can be about everyone else who has a life and a job and still does HOURS of stuff for twi. On the one hand, vpw always claimed twi had all the "best" people and he studied under "the best" despite their lack of background. However, if YOU do something for twi, the top person from there can avoid saying something nice and say it wasn't "best" instead, implying it wasn't good enough. "All 9 all the time." - A nice goal to aim for, but impossible in practice. NOBODY EVER walked around in twi, CONTINUALLY performing miracles, doing healings, casting out demons or devil-spirits, etc INCLUDING vpw, no matter how often he FAKED getting revelation.

This is Charlene Lamy Edge, author of a memoir about my seventeen years in The Way: Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. The last part of my book reveals goings-on in the Way’s research department at its Ohio headquarters where I worked from 1984-1986 on what was called Aramaic projects. Rev. Juedes refers to my book in this video. I was involved in Aramaic work at The Way beginning in 1972 when Wierwille assigned me to help the woman he hired to teach Aramaic at Way summer school and to collect Aramaic manuscripts on microfilm. That buying spree was what George Lamsa encouraged Wierwille to do. But Lamsa did not stick around. Wierwille made plans to eventually publish an "Aramaic" concordance, a N.T. interlinear, and a Lexicon. By 1984, I was on the biblical research team at HQ to help finish what was eventually called The Concordance to the P e s h I t t a Version of the Aramaic New Testament. I still have my copy. We had to add the word “Aramaic” to the title because V. P. Wierwille incorrectly and chronically used “Aramaic” to refer to that N. T. version, which, as Juedes says, is from the 5th century. However, it was not in Aramaic, it was in a language called Syriac. But VPW would not be corrected, as I write about in my book. His knowledge of Aramaic and Syriac texts was insufficient to speak knowledgeably about them. The “Aramaic” New Testament that Juedes refers to is an interlinear using the same Syriac text the concordance is tied to, but with the English translation included, and the KJV in a third column. This set of interlinear volumes was published by other Way researchers after I resigned from the research department and left The Way. Just for the record, the final translation that Juedes says appeases Way leaders was not done while I was there. In my view, Juedes makes many good points in this video. But what is missing is insider info, including this: biblical texts were only considered tools by VPW and his trained loyal researchers to determine "the accuracy" of The Word. Greek, Syriac, Hebrew, even Coptic were said to be “compared” to determine “accurate readings.” Although, for the most part we depended on the Greek N.T. for readings. We did NOT say accurate “interpretations,” because Wierwille taught that The Word (the Bible) was of no private interpretation. He got that idea from II Peter 1:21. The problem with using that verse is MAJOR. It does not specify what “Scripture” refers to. It’s vague. It doesn’t list the specific books. Not only that, the author of II Peter is up for debate. To go down that rabbit hole of authorship, refer to any reputable scholar doing historical criticism on the N.T. For starters, I recommend Dr. Bart Ehrman’s work, starting with Misquoting Jesus. https://www.amazon.com/Bart-D-Ehrman/e/B001I9RR7G?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1&qid=1560098706&sr=8-1 Anyway, to get the accurate reading, we were to use Wierwille’s keys to research to “let the Bible interpret itself.” What a fallacy that was! Books do not interpret themselves. People interpret books. In the end, what was taught as accurate would be determined from VPW’s supposedly great “scope of The Word” which he said he gained from “working” the whole Word [Bible] for years and years and/or from God’s direct revelation. From my experience in research, I came away with realizing that the catch phrase, The Word, referred to whatever VPW decided. After he died, the tangled web of figuring out what he would have wanted and how to rationalize his mistakes and deliberate twisting of Scripture fell to Walt*r Cu*mins, the man in charge of research who I worked for while on the research team in The Way. I go into this in my book, which is available from all major booksellers.

Retemories - a branded term for the small flash cards with scripture verses on them. "Believers" don't memorize, they "retermorize". Cop Out - a version of the older term that meant to "cop to a plea" or 'fess up. Adopted by Wayfers to mean someone who left the Way, dropped membership, was no longer "standing" or "believing" the "accuracy of the Word". Eventually everyone but a small remnant will, in order to pattern closely what happened to Paul by the end of his life. The Best - when good just isn't good enough, everything has to be "the best". A bar frequently not reached, usually because of something you did. Blessed - another word for doing fine, feeling good, things are going your way, but with the added weight of God's eternal approval and judgment. All leadership is blessed and if they're not, it's your fault. Joyful - spiritually happy. Makes regular "5 sense" happy seem like a dirty word, no one's really blessed being happy, they have to have JOY and be full of it. 5 Senses - very limiting way of learning and knowing something, unreliable and bad. Never rely on your senses unless it's a leaders senses in which case they're not really just 5 senses, they're the very fabric of God's Presence. All 9 All The Time - another way of saying you're "believing" and "walking" with all the manifestations in operation, means you're in fellowship and pretty much golden. A goal, unless you're a leader in which case you're next fart is really a Word of Knowledge. There's so many more of course. And there's a common theme to many of them. I agree that it's not unique to "religious" cults, and is more a part of humanity's need to recognize who's a friendly and inside the inner circle of trust, like family and your closes associates. Like jokes only you 'n' me understand (wink wink) and the noobs don't get yet, kind of thing. Definitely can be used as a tool of manipulation too.

Holidays- Christmas became Household Holiday (HoHo) Valentines became Happy Hearts Day Easter became Resurrection Sunday

Yeah, "move the word" is code for enlisting new recruits and enrolling new class students, preferably ones without a lot of troublesome personal baggage and lots of disposable cash.

I fixed that for you.

Mrs. Wierwille's book documents the struggles and challenges of their fledgling splinter group [from B.G. Leonard's class and teachings]......after leaving the Van Wert Church in 1957. And, like most splinter groups who are strapped for cash and reaching out for ANY MONETARY SUPPORT THAT THEY CAN FIND.......wierwille did the same. When the wierwilles left the church pastorate, they found housing at 649 South Washington Street, still in Van Wert......[when you don't have much money, or much of a plan......you don't move far]. This house was the Queen Anne style with a three-story round tower with fretted windows. Back then, wierwille utilized letter writing as one of the main tools for solicitation of support and funds. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [p. 228] November 5, 1958 Dear Friend in Christ: Greetings to you from Headquarters in the Name of Jesus Christ......... ......... From November 18th to 25th I will be with B.G. [Leonard] in Canada for a Missionary Convention. Eric Watson will be back from his 7 months afield and the big news is he is getting married to Mona Nelson, one of B.G.'s Congregation. Enroute to Calgary I will stop at Denver to meet with Dr. Stemme of Burton College and Seminary to discuss with him The Way Biblical Seminary. Thanksgiving is on Thursday, November 27th. I will be back for Thanksgiving and I was wondering if you would like to have a special Thanksgiving Service that night at Headquarters? If we could get another 6 families interested in our local group meetings who would join with us week after week in fellowship as well as the giving of their tithes for this work and ministry we would have a greater group than we have even now. Although I sure thank God for your faithfulness and you know I have to teach whenever and wherever God opens doors. Some weeks and months our people are gone a great deal, but I know I do, and others do the same, even when we are out teaching we arrange for our tithe to be in every Sunday night. When it comes to our expenses to operate Headquarters I have complained only about the light bill from Ohio Power. They charge us commercial rates which is morally not fair as far as I am concerned but they are a utility monopoly and they have legal rights backed by the Utilities Commission of Ohio so what can we do. I have also been thinking about putting the Wierwille family back on an $80.00 a week schedule, but to be real truthful to try and run our family of 7 of us on much less than a hundred and to maintain the dignity that we as leaders of The Way must have, because of the nature of our position, it would be real difficult. We as a family apparently have many obligations which a similar sized family would not necessarily have. Well we have no complaints only thanksgiving. I have never felt better in my life, in the work of Christ than I feel now. We are free, we can walk in love and in unity with those who want to love us and walk with us. We are free to change when God's Word shows us where we must change. Oh what a joy to be free and to walk in liberty. Another thing I know is true that if we would have our Bible teaching fellowship on Sunday Morning instead of Sunday Night we would have many more in attendance. Having a family I know what a chore it is to get the children out and ready on Sunday Night when they should be put to bed early. But, we are a pioneering group and as such we many at times have to push ourselves to do certain things that the more or less nominal Christians would not do. Well God bless you for your prayers and help for The Way ministry and the whole cause of Christ. Sincerely, In His Service, Victor Paul Wierwille ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As a fledgling splinter group started in 1957........and NOT the 1942 myth of twi's starting date........wierwille was grasping for ways to keep from drowning. Why is any of this important? Who really cares after all these years? BECAUSE.......it's the same thing that every splinter group does Splinter cults claim love and liberty.....from what they left behind How about a Thanksgiving Night Service? Sound familiar? No damn it.......I spend time with MY FAMILY on Thanksgiving The Way Ministry was a splinter group............and went thru the fits-and-starts of a fledgling operation with no money or support. When one reads thru Mrs. W's book, one of the most salient points throughout is the struggle for money. And, when talk of "A Permanent Headquarters at the Wierwille Homestead" was bantered about in 1959.......a schism arose by those who did not trust vic and harry to keep the farm operation [money] separate from the ministry. The first "twi-exodus" ensued......... So, what does every splinter group do? Teach, teach, teach........and find people to give, give, give. Build the cult.....er, charitable ministry whose main, and only, mission, is "to teach the Word (cough, cough)." No help or support to community events or services. No help to food drives. No help to Red Cross. No help to homeless shelters. No help to spouse abuse services. Hock the classes and teachings as secret, spiritual insight. Same old, same old......every splinter cult does it. They want to get you in ANOTHER splinter group as fast as possible. Many corps leaders still want to leverage their power over others. These corps leaders want to CONTINUE the ruse. Who ordered the code red?

Welcome back...... Mr. Bob Moynihan Mr. Michael Fort Mr. Ed Horney Mr. Rico Magnelli Mr. Tom Knupp etc. .........to the land of mere mortals.

Yeah.......splinter cults "taking care of each other." The "reverends" stay "reverends." Corps still hold spiritual status and leadership roles in this two-tier system. Rather than align with wierwille-mandates of DFAC (dropped from active corps).....they dismiss vpw's contempt on cop-outs. The splinter cults laud pfal-doctrine..........yet, bury every corps letter (and teaching) that wierwille directed their way. Cognitive dissonance is on parade as these splinter cults fly their flags and wear their masks. And then, others follow them into these splinter cults.......because "churches are evil messengers." OMG.......is this what institutionalized means? Psychosocial perversions, indeed.

No doubt JJ never thought he'd still be making these videos contra'ing VPW, after all these years. As well as showing the copies of the books plagiarised by VPW, it might have been useful if JJ had recommended one or two deeper (but not too deep) theological tomes by reputable writers, since he mentions that VPW's writings are not only plagiarised, but shallow, sloppy, subbed, stolen, etc. Too many ex-Wayfers have no idea where to start looking, if they want more info, or want to study or think for themselves, and find it difficult to accept, let alone analyse, the content of non-Way materials. Anyway, well done John, for sticking with it all these years.

You sound bitter, Grace. Say three Hail Dorothies, two Our Rhodas and go to concession before next service. While at concession, pick me up a beer.

Sometimes there is a lot of venting needed because we spent years with stuffed feelings and opinions and were not actually allowed to experience our reality, only the reality we were told to accept. It can take awhile to get in touch with the authentic self. And venting things that couldn't be expressed is often part of the process.

Hello "The High Way". Could you please help me out? I'm looking for either mp3 or c.d. of Kid's Sing Along The Way Song "Like A Little Tin Soldier". Am willing to pay for shipping or other costs... Thank you so much, I saw your post regarding "Old Way Tapes" back in 2007!!! - Blessings Sky Walker