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Perhaps you are unfamiliar with trauma, PTSD or the sting of being ripped off. I was about to agree with you until you leaned on the cult trope of "crying about decades old offenses". These offenses include rape, sir. They include taking my teenage friends for abortions financed by a handful of money dipped from a free bucket of cash called "tithes". Perhaps giving your entire childhood to a movement that turned out to be a fraud run by grifters and perverts, stings a little. "Crying" isn.t weakness. It is a basic human emotions. If you don't cry while you're recovering from a literal attack on everything you are and everything you have, then you're the one with the problem. And by the way, I don't see anyone "crying" in the replies to your post. I see people who learned the hard way and are trying to warn you that these offenses, not all of which are "decades" old, hurt people. People still haven't recovered. Some people died, MAN. Do you have any idea the number of people who have died as a direct result of trauma from this cult? I have friends who died in accidents and were blamed for not being holy enough. It's gross. There is also no rule that says if you're "crying" about the way's literal crimes, that means that we aren't walking with Jesus. That is a fallacy. Both things can be true. You can walk with Jesus and be wise to The Way's bullcrap. And when we meet a person who says they went to HQ and everyone was so nice, we want you to know that trusting in this group will deceive you and you might not even know it's happening. If you want to stick your hand on the burner to see if fire is really hot, go ahead. You've been warned. But don't pretend that we are all crying. We were trying to warn you.

The foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rains came down and the floods came up... Glad they were nice to you. They are a poorly researched, mean spirited cult who worshipped a man and paid the price. They turned a blind eye to assaults of all kinds, theft, adultery, abuse of children and they separated families. This went on for decades, heck half a century plus. But I am glad they were nice to you.

For those who were told by a certain leader that they should follow him blindly: Facebook

It's been a year or more since last posting, I don't visit here very often. I hope everyone is well. I came looking around for news about TWI, I guess they are laying very low and not doing the crazy crap they used to when Weirwille and Martindale where running things. I'm pretty much over my whole cult experience. I'm still in the same apartment, with the same cat. Haven't drank alcohol in 5 years and that is going great. I'm on ozempic and jardiance which has helped me get down to a 5.5 A1C and lose 50 lbs. I hope everyone is doing well. Seth

And where the eff did they get "more than 900 people" to sign up as Way Ambassadors? Or is it just that they have 900 actual "members" and declared that wherever they are they are "ambassadors of TWI"? A mere technicality to be able to claim they have 900 ambassadors.

Almost thou persuadest me to be an atheist

WW kind of sideswiped a theory I've been working under for the past few years. I've brought it up before but it bears repeating. I have a suspicion (not enough evidence to call it a theory) that VPW was an unbeliever at heart. In tribute to Mike's thesis about how Wierwille hid great truths in plain sight and we all missed it: He declared himself to be all but atheist after studying the Bible. He no longer believed the words Holy or Bible on the cover (which is grammatically and rhetorically stupid, but you get his point). Being educated about the Bible, its history and authorship caused him to all but lose his faith. He said so! What if he never regained it? Bear with me: what if, from that moment forward, it was never about getting God and His Word right, but getting while the getting was good? He got money. He got adoration, He got fame (relative to most of us). He got attention. He got sex. He got power. How much of what he did makes more sense if he didn't believe a word of it but knew how to manipulate people to get what he wanted from them? Every time he discovered a niche, he exploited it. "This book is not some kind of Johnny come lately idea just to be iconoclastic..." [if someone has the correct wording, please let me know. I'll be happy to fix]. Oh it WASN'T? Because it was so shoddy I would think that you were selling a title rather than a book. You have a doctorate. You know how to present and defend a thesis (stop laughing, you in the back row. @#$%ing Snowball Pete). But he was an unbeliever. He KNEW the scholarship about the Bible that people like Bart Ehrman and Dan McClellan are popularizing today. He knew and he stopped believing. And THAT is when the bulls hit started. The funny thing is, it doesn't negate anything he taught. Just his motives. If McClellan and Ehrman are right, the first Christians really weren't Trinitarians. They weren't what Wierwille espoused either, though some were. Jehovah's Witnesses actually got it right, if McClellan and Ehrman are correct. But even that conclusion presupposes a unified message from the New Testament writers. And they weren't unified. Here's the problem Wierwille exposed that a lot of Christianity still gets wrong. There WAS NO FIRST CENTURY CHURCH. There were first century churches. Tons of them. And they disagreed with each other about EVERYTHING. Another topic for another time. Bottom line, I'm increasingly coming to believe that Wierwille's rise and ministry can best be explained by the hypothesis that he was an unbeliever from the moment before he became relevant.

For those of you asking. The Way is no longer supporting "tithing", in their STS they talk about "GIVE" and in the last fellowship I participated I was encourage to give freely. So they are not longer asking for 15% even for graduates of the advanced class ( I was) The Way has changed in the recent years? For sure, ¿ real changes? Not at all. TWI is bringing back the "good old years", uploading VPW teachings on their Youtube Channel, offering basically the same content. And hiding some of their core teachings in order to look more appealing to a younger crowd. Good people in TWI? For sure, you can find good people everywhere. You'll receive a lot of love in the beginning (Love-bombing uhh) ; as long as you don't commit to the ministry, they won't ask much of you. When you become deeply involved with TWI, the hell and abuse begin. And even though LCM's abusive tactics are no longer as prevalent, the emotional and psychological manipulation persists. I left TWI a little over two years ago. If you have any question about current TWI, just ask. Have a good day!

Glad you had a good experience Joyful. For many of us here, it would take a lot more than people being friendly and joyful to overcome the darkness the organization embraced for many years. If you go to ROA 2025, let us know what you think.

No, thanks.

I remember, back in the day, there was a twig leaders' syllabus that outlined acceptable behavior at large events, such as limb meetings, branch meetings and so forth. One of the admonitions listed was to "refrain from picking your own seat." My question is this: Are there currently any circumstances under which it's acceptable to pick your seat? Whose seat should you pick instead? (Yes, thank you, I've been told I'm a twisted individual.)

Freedom, a new life, a new perspective about God and the Bible An opportunity to love all people, to serve from something as basic as a warm greeting in the morning to saying thank you and please, not being a false servant in a group only to become a leader. A wonderful chance to get closer to my family, that family from which I distanced myself because they did not participate in the ministry.

TWI has changed a little bit during the recent years. But their change its only towards recover the "good old days" of VPW and PRE-LCM. VPW is still the main figure and the functioning of the organization and psychological abuse towards people persists. They're not willing to apologize to people; they only ask them to forgive and move forward "in love" . It's sad, but they demand greater maturity from the "average" believer than they do from the leader. Forgiving someone does not immediately mean restoring the relationship or psychological healing.

Thanks For the Letters Charlene, I'm new in the Forum though I lurked for years. And I left the Way 2 years ago.

????????

Oh, they're full of it, alright.

For many people, recovery is an on-going process. Think in terms of something like weight loss. You don't reach your target weight and suddenly abandon the effort. I think there's a bit of a parallel in the comparison, but maybe that's just me.

I have no doubt this is a deeply traumatic event in your life. Suppression is a natural response to trauma. Telling the story can be liberating and healing, for you and the reader. Let it out. Your anger is justified. Be angry, but if you won’t, I’ll be angry for the both of us. F**k these people and the charlatan they fellate.

I've been thinking about this post since I made it. I kind of put this experience away when it happened. That's gotta be some sort of trauma response because there was nothing I could do and none of the adults on cam[us said anything about it. The only thing I heard was "Poor her. Her believing wasn't there". So instead of being mad, we were embarrassed. I can tell you, if that happened to my wife or children today, I wouldn't brush it off. Sometimes sharing a story is liberating. In this case it gave me the anger I should have had in the first place. I spent all weekend ....ed off. 30 plus years later.

RIP Todd.

He was so much more than just a singer in a rock and roll band.

A few months ago, I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. (Early stage, no metastasis.) My boss pointed out that the radioactive tracer FDG (fluorodeoxyglucose) is used to detect cancer cells because glucose derivatives are consumed more rapidly by cancer cells than by healthy cells. He suggested a low-sugar diet. My GP suggested teh same thing, but to lower my triglycerides and A1C. When I asked my radiation oncologist about it, he said that some cancers might have a positive response to a low-carb diet, it doesn't really apply to prostate cancer. He pointed out that, just like other cells, when glucose is unavailable cancer cells will eat whatever nutrients ARE around. I will be undergoing radiation treatments shortly, and, ironically, in order to avoid gas production which could interfere with the targeting, I'm now essentially on a high-carb, low-fiber diet. Mashed potatoes, pancakes, and oatmeal are fine, salads and uncooked vegetables are not. Also, because the radiation may affect my urethra, acids and spicy items are no-nos (so no orange juice or coffee in the morning). About the only things that are both low-carb and low-gas are grilled meats and fish. One thing that really DOES promote prostate cancer, unfortunately, is testosterone, so I've been on a testosterone blocker for a couple of months now. My PSA has dropped to 1.1, which indicates that the cancer isn't growing. The bad news is that I'll have to remain on the blocker for up to two years after the radiation treatments. The good news is that my oncologist is quite sanguine about my chances for eliminating the cancer. George

I understand how you could come to that conclusion and there is a forum in doctrinal. My main comment is, why should we believe or trust anything VPW said? Please don't allow his words to continue to have any say over your current life. I am thankful for all of us who have found freedom outside of TWI.

3,000 participants. Does that include, I wonder, all the staff pressganged to work on the event? Limb coordinators, etc (if such still exist), dragged in? Together with spouses and children? I'm almost surprised that there'd be 900 non-staff present. And 900 "ambassadors"? In their dreams!

I don't know about TWI being Christian Nationalist, but here's my take. A thing about TWI was that mostly they simply didn't regard others as having a valid viewpoint. Our way or the highway. So little regard for others that they didn't even notice them. There was a big oval table in the auditorium. Inlaid countries of the world. Lovely. Where was New Zealand? And what other countries were missing? Other countries have different cultural traditions, including Christian traditions. But no. You will do it our way. Even if it was culturally offensive or ineffective. Disclaimer on this : in Christian Etiquette, Mrs Allen taught how Americans should eat, how to handle a knife and fork, etc. She made the point that this was American etiquette and urged people from other countries to follow their style of eating. Good - because in my countries, eating American-style is poor manners and only used by children learning to eat properly!! Might be used casually but never in "polite society." I have lived in two other countries for very long periods and visited many others, and I have a number of friends who have been missionaries in other countries. American ways are often viewed with suspicion. Solutions to problems can be imposed, rather than reached in consensus with locals. (As an aside: You only have to look at the world situation now to see how "solutions" are trying to be imposed without taking into account the views of others involved - but no more of this, least it be deemed "political.") But I don't know if this was just TWI, or if it was American culture generally, that thought the American way was the only way worthy of living. I doubt that any such culture would have been recognised in the middle east, where Christianity was born. It certainly isn't in line with Jesus's teachings. Certainly TWI dismissed other Christian traditions without considering the merits thereof, any spiritual help those traditions gave to others, and neither did they consider whether their own "brand" was really helpful to people from any cultural background. USA is such a huge country with so much diversity. One size does not fit all. Well. That's a cult for you.

You know, it is possible John might answer questions about his paper and what happened way back when if any of you ask him. Here's the website contact page to reach him and his organization: Connect With Us | Spirit & Truth

I was going out WOW and on our way to Amarillo I flipped into a manic psychotic episode and they put me on a bus. I got off the bus in Oklahoma City and was acting crazy and the police picked me up and put me in jail. A warden took it upon herself to look into my purse and fortunately my parents’ address and phone number were in it. (They had moved) and she contacted my dad who flew to OKC and took me home. Without these “fortunate” occurrences God only knows what would have become of me. It’s only because God took care of me not TWI. By the way, I didn’t really want to go WOW in the first place but was pressured into it by my twig leader. I’m bipolar but was undiagnosed at the time.

I was born and raised as a Roman Catholic, and attended their schools. I bought into their belief’s and even thought of becoming a priest, in other words I was sold on their doctrine. UNTIL the Second Vatican Council in 1962. Prior to this no Catholic could eat meat on Friday, and if they did it was a mortal sin. A mortal sin would send you to hell if you did not confess the sin to a priest. So if a Catholic was to eat a bologna sandwich for lunch on any Friday, and on the way home they were killed in a motor vehicle accident, their soul would immediately be damned to hell for eternity. Pretty severe for sure and not very comforting for their surviving Catholic family. Then, the Second Vatican Council decreed that eating meat on Friday, except for Lent, was no longer a mortal sin. In other words, you can eat bacon and eggs for breakfast, a ham and cheese sandwich for lunch, and rib steak for dinner, and no longer commit a mortal sin. How in the name of fairness and common sense, could a loving God cast his children into everlasting hell for eating meat on Friday prior to the Second Vatican Council, and not post Second Vatican Council? That opened my eyes to the ridiculousness of this teaching and started me on a very long journey realizing that trying to explain a loving God was also ridiculous. There are several thousand Christian religions that all disagree on how to obtain eternal life. Plus all the other world religions all have their way of salvation. If you can’t prove one is tight then all must be wrong.

This is getting obnoxious

Sadly, there is quite a lengthy list of posters who will never post here or anywhere else again. Missed, but not forgotten. Life can be rather cruel at times. Enjoy life while you still can and celebrate each new day.

Yeah. For some reason I didn't notice the time stamp. It's a Wonder-Stevie Kay (mid to late 1970s) Her voice reminds me a lot of Joan Baez. Probably the fast vibrato.

It's the beleefs. Every time. I don't know JoyfulSoul, but reading his last two or three posts brought forth a wellspring of compassion for him. Only from reading the words he wrote, I gather he suffers deeply because of his beleefs. And, sadly, he won't let go to be liberated, or as he says, delivered. My ex-step son (is that a thing?) has serious psychological disorders. He was clinically diagnosed in his teens, but because his mother and her wierwille-worshipping family are so vehemently opposed to a psychiatric diagnosis and treatment, his disease progressed and worsened. Today he is in prison. I was with him one night when he was having a psychic break. He babbled a bunch of nonsense about heaven and hell and the devil and Israel, etc. His own Corps grad uncle never got the green light or cookie or whatever to cast out the psychological disorders. Now the young man is spending the rest of his life in prison. Little children are more "spiritually mature" than all actors in this tragedy. They have yet to be conditioned to beleeve anything at all.

Is it human nature to expect a glove to fit every hand that arises? Words and their definitions are problematic, aren't they? Words like transcendent, numinous, sublime, even spiritual. They are pretty much all we got and religion can't claim exclusive rights to them. Transcendence has several meanings, only one of them religious. Numinous can mean awe-inspiring. Kant has a concept of the Sublime. Christopher Hitchens uses these words to make the point that you need to go beyond religion in order to fully appreciate reality, not just to understand it rationally but also to enjoy it, to be dazzled by its beauty and order, to exalt in its wonder. When Hitchens talks about "the transcendent and numinous," he's not referring to anything supernatural. He's also not advocating any type of worship or debasement. He's referring to an appreciation for the amazing insights and workings of the natural order as well as an appreciation for the greater aspects of the human experience. He's trying to make the case that religion doesn't own these words or concepts. He's also attempting to address the claim that science reduces everything to chemical impulses and nihilism. His position is that atheists are capable of having the exact same types of experiences as believers, and none of them require beleef in anything supernatural or anything unsupported by the evidence. He's saying that atheists are just as capable of feeling self-transcending love or connection to something greater than oneself or true awe. One doesn't need superstition to take part in any of these amazing human experiences. If you reject the notion that there exists a supernatural dimension, then all religious and spiritual experiences can be understood as purely, physical phenomena. Therefore, when someone experiences a moment of self-transcending love that feels all-encompassing or when someone goes into a desert and fasts for 40 days and 40 nights or when someone takes a pilgrimage to feel a connection to the divine or when someone learns about the natural order and feels an incredible connection to the universe or when someone experiences a piece of art that moves them deeply and inexplicably to feel as if they're part of something larger than themselves, all of these things can be understood as meaningful subjective experiences in a physical, natural universe with no supernatural or spiritual dimensions. It's difficult to illustrate how meaningful and impactful these experiences are without using language that is typically reserved for usage in explaining religious experiences. After all, people like Einstein and Spinoza weren't necessarily religious, but they definitely had beliefs that could be called spiritual. Not spiritual in the sense that it spoke of a spiritual dimension, but spiritual as in an incredible admiration for the workings of the natural order, the range of human experience, and the mysteries of the universe. One can reject the supernatural and absolutely still have a transcendent experience. Here are the Four Horseman talking about the transcendent and numinous. https://youtu.be/9DKhc1pcDFM?si=n2dsCndVCJviEYEn And here's Sam Harris on his use of the word spiritual. https://youtu.be/zLKNvBdUtZY?si=utS8kRZtcr7AX8Ka

Differences of opinion! Differences of opinion are allowed at the GSC! Politics are verboten. Anyone who takes a position that "vpw was the greatest man of God since the apostle Paul" will find they've taken a VERY unpopular stance and will be debated. But they will be allowed to post- as will everyone who disagrees with them. Differences of opinion, agreeing to disagree, and independent thought are not allowed at twi, and never were. So, people used to twi and ex-twi ONLY may find freedom to think unsettling. But it's an asset.

It's too early for me to share the personal and painful details of my life. I can tell you that with the support of God , my family, a psychiatrist, and a psychologist, I've been able to move forward. Although I don't resent TWI, I wouldn't recommend anyone attend TWI unless it's ONLY to receive information about Romans 10:9 and then leave in peace. Where do I start? Lies about the ministry's origin, lies about the content they teach, plagiarism, abuse. Leaders believe they are chosen by God because of VPW's misuse of Romans 13, and those leaders believe that since they are called by God, they can do whatever they please. If you are with the ministry, they will be with you; if you walk away from the ministry, all those friends.. will stop talking to you. They use people, they don't love them. They "research" the WORD OF God only to the extent that it doesn't contradict VPW. (CULT-RED FLAG) They have abused thousands of people around the world, and now that Martindale and Rivenbark are gone... they go around telling people to "forgive" and move forward with the "Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation." It's not an honest organization that publicly and openly acknowledges mistakes; they only do so privately (at some point the will do) TIME TO COME HOME uhh? They don't teach people not to harm; They don't teach people not to harm; they demand that victims forgive abusers, and they keep the abusers in power. If you want details, send me a PM. God Bless U, PD: Vern seems like a good man, with good intentions. But he doesn't have the strength to weed out TWI's sectarian practices. (I met him 3 times)

“The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word.” -vpw Nothing. But. The Word. NOTHING. So, what is the Word? It’s whatever victor paul wierwille says it is. I was “taught” victor did all the “research” so I wouldn’t have to - oh, how he toiled 18hrs/day for years. Such selfless sacrifice on his part, I was “taught.” I should be so grateful. Oldies is right. It’s like any other religion. (TWI is indeed religion, no matter what they claim.) They are dogmatic, yet call themselves a “research ministry.” This is one of many contradictions illustrating their mathematic inexactness and scientific imprecision. No doubt they are nice. Super nice, I bet. Friendly, I’m sure. Be friends. Go to their church (yes, it’s a church), fellowship with them. Whatever. If anyone in TWI came on this board wanting to talk, I suspect they would be welcome. Wierwille apologists have always been welcome and free to post inexhaustible platitudes. Some here might have questions for them. I know I do.

Wierwille, Martindale, Bickle, and… Kat Kerr. That’s a hand never tired of the glove.

I got very caught up with the Bickle sexual abuse scandal and the IHOPKC coverup and how similar it was to weirwille's and twi's. What did you know about the latter and what is twi saying about it now? There's no way I respect twi today for their lies and coverup for this man. Do they still call him "the man of God for our day and time" or just their "father in the word?"

I wonder if they still throw darts at a map to make assignments. They're gonna need a pretty big map, I suppose.

Don't mind me, I'm a cynical old fart. Part of this reminds me of my own early experiences, all those years ago. Everyone seemed so happy, joyful, "We sure do love you" and all that jazz. Different from mainstream churches. Love bombing at its best. Somehow, I don't see it ending well. Your mileage may vary.

I don't know anything about narcissistic children, but I know something about the full blown disorder (NPD) in adults. Adults that develop this disorder usually suffered trauma/abuse as children. This abuse is usually by a parent who is an NPD/sociopath themself. Often the abuse is severe neglect or abandonment. It can even be overvaluing the child. (This may seem counterintuitive, but it's the academic term for "spoiled rotten.") The NPD seeks to destroy that which they did not experience. A form of revenge? Envy? I don't know why exactly, but narcissists are attracted to good people who are strong, honest, kind, generous, empathetic, loved and authentic. They didn't have any of that as children. NPDs are incapable of honestly expressing and living those qualities. Others who exemplify and embody those qualities are targeted. And they are then systematically destroyed. Self esteem isn't the primary reason. Empathy is a significant factor.

There was a little book sold in the bookstore called Christian Etiquette by Dorothy Owens. It was probably about 50 pages or so. It had a lot of advice on things like how to set a table, what fork to use, proper dinner conversation, etc. Most of the trivial details have become antiquated in today's society. The overall concept it stressed, though, remains true. Our "etiquette" should be concerned with making people feel at ease and should never create an atmosphere of stress. I would recommend the book and reiterate it should be used with that thought in mind.

UK maps have Gulf of Mexico (Gulf of America). If there's no good reason to change a name of centuries, why bother? Ah, says an orangeman, there is good reason. My ego! TBH if it were called Gulf of THE Americas, that would be understandable and maybe acceptable. The area is bounded by the continent of North America and the isthmus of Central America; and South America forms a southern boundary though arguably not exactly on the gult. The lengths of the Mexican border and the north American border appear to be about the same. But no. The orangeman thinks America means the whole of the continent of North America (sorry, Canadians). And sharing with other parts of "America" (ie, Central and South) just isn't in the playbook. It's likely the rest of the world with stick with Gulf of Mexico and the name will revert back in a few years' time.

Thanks, Allan. The current administration will be pleased. Really, it interprets itself, whatever one calls it.

For anyone considering getting involved with The Way, or if you are and you're having doubts about the group, consider this. It is information you may not have already: The current Way organization still lauds the corrupt VPW as their founding "man of God?" About the Founder - Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille That's enough for me to categorize the current organization as corrupt. Its roots in Wierwille are rotten. Their current "tree" cannot be any good no matter how "nice" any followers might be. Many of us had first-hand experience with the authoritarian, narcissistic, predatory, abusive plagiarist named Victor Paul Wierwille. We know that he stole most of his teachings that are found on tapes and in his books. Many of those are still used today, or tweaked, or slanted this way or that. We know the women he seduced and raped and silenced. We know the emotional abuse he inflicted on anyone who questioned him. We now understand how cults work and how they make extensive efforts to hide their corrupt histories like the one The Way has and cannot escape. We know that no matter how many fresh coats of paint you slather over filth, the filth is still underneath. To any followers of this organization: ask where the money goes. Ask where the power lies. Ask what happens if you leave the group. Ask what happens if you disagree with the ideology. Think for yourself.

https://www.cultfacts.com/cults/the-way-international First 2 paragraphs are much as twi might describe itself. Third paragraph: They also adopted a hierarchical educational structure which many say is used to exercise excessive control over its members. "The Foundational Class on Power for Abundant Living," serves as an entry point into a system that encourages participants to climb a ladder of increasing commitment and involvement, a structure often compared to pyramid schemes [not unlike Scientology]. Members who commit to the Way have reported severe sleep deprivation, isolation from families, and other forms of control from church leaders, which have led them to drop out of school, quit taking medicine, or prepare for a prophesized nuclear holocaust. Some of their worst abuses started to come to light after former members launched lawsuits against the organization. In addition to concerns about psychological manipulation and financial control, former members testified about a widespread coordination of up to fifty leaders[aka conspiracy] to assist in and coverup the sexual abuse of female members at the hands of the presidents and high-ranking leaders. Court documents and media sources reported that girls as young as thirteen are shown pornography and trained in how to provide sexual gratification while being taught that a woman's purpose is to give sexual pleasure to men. Victims revealed how leaders used the guilt of disobeying God and fears of death to coerce them into submission. Meanwhile other trusted leaders told them how privileged they were to be able to satisfy such great men of God. At it's peak, The Way was considered the second largest cult in America, with up to 40,000 members. While membership declined significantly in the 1990s, the organization still exists today, remaining curiously quiet about their abusive history.

So glad to now be after having been unburdened from what has been....

Thanks for this, Rocky. As for tactics TWI used in the past to find prospects. In the 1970s, one big time leader I won't name, told us to comb throught the obituaries to find the names of families who'd lost loved ones so we could approach them, offer "comfort," and try to sign them up for the PFAL class. I found that piece of advice so revolting I never did it. At least I had some good sense tucked in my mind somewhere back then ...