Leaderboard

My official involvement in TWI was brief. My emotional involvement is another story. I was introduced to The Way in late December 1986. It took a lot of persuading, but I finally sat through the class nearly two years later. By then I had sat through dozens of hours of teaching tapes and Way music was part of my regular diet. I even taught a couple of times: Before I took the class! I was not abused in or by The Way. No one hurt me. No one stole my girlfriend or wife. I parted with my money voluntarily. i left because I was loyal to those who were fired en masse in the spring of 1989. Leaving The Way did not affect my worship life one whit. I was of the belief that we who were cast aside were the ones who were truly most loyal to the Word as taught to us by Dr. Wierwille. In the decade that followed, I got married and became a fellowship coordinator at our offshoot in the Bronx. I got divorced and had a crisis of conscience. I tried hard to stay true to Biblical principles no matter who taught them, and to reject non-Biblical principles (again, no matter who taught them). I ceased being loyal to any particular group, defending and challenging various offshoots at various times. I also began attending mainstream churches after I moved to Florida. After my divorce, I discovered this online community of former Way believers. In my naiveté, I guess I must have come off as quite arrogant and inflexible. Honestly, I was not emotionally prepared for the realization that people had such a wide variety of experiences. I think I grew with this site, both in my understanding and in my flexibility, at least when it comes to doctrine. Today I am not a Way believer. I am not a believer in any supernatural religion. I am a humanist: I believe it is incumbent on man to identify and seek to solve the problems we create, so that our progeny can live in a future worth living for. I can work with anyone who has the same belief, whether that belief is driven by an underlying belief similar to mine or by the belief that a Higher Power demands it of us. So be it. I am writing this (and opening this thread) because I wanted to articulate a simple truth: The "members" of this web community are not an ideological monolith. The only thing we have in common appears to be that we sat through some version of a class that The Way called "foundational." Some of us experienced more. Some of us, far less. We are not all here because we were hurt, though some of us were. We are not all here because we are bitter, though some of us are. We are not all here because we hate God or the Word. Some of us love both with all our hearts. Others would no sooner hate God than Godzilla, for all their ability to demonstrate their existence. We are in various states of personal recovery. Honestly, I'm here out of habit. I've been done with this stuff for years. But now and then I am called upon to explain some of the things I wrote when I was young, idealistic, and enthusiastic about my faith. What about the Blue Book review and Actual Errors? The Blue Book Review (look it up) is a sincere effort by a sincere Christian to weed out truth from error in the works of VPW. Actual Errors, while limited in scope and purpose, was apparently QUITE influential despite itself. It was, at its heart, a defense of the class and the collaterals: A defense against an effort to exalt them above the Word we purported to believe. It was never intended to be an attack on PFAL. It was intended to be a recognition of the obvious: That PFAL was not perfect. That discussion died out years and years ago. But not and then it comes back up, and my name is attached to it. So now and then I remind people what it was all about. From the horse's mouth, as it were. Anyway, back to this thread: There is no single "why I left the way" experience. There is no single "why I'm still out" experience. We are individuals. We are here to give a reason for where we are today. Just ask us.

Some of you know that in 1987, I escaped the fundamentalism and cult control of The Way International when I drove away from TWI headquarters in New Knoxville, Ohio, and never went back. I don't intend to return there in person. However, by checking in here at GSC every once in a while, I end up revisiting, by way of people's memories and documented facts, some of the terrible problems that issued from cultic beliefs and behaviors of Way leaders and some followers. I also rejoice in much healing. Your stories are important and I thank you for them. Today, I watched the televised coverage of Cassidy Hutchinson give her testimony of what happened behind-the-scenes in the White House leading up to, during, and shortly after the insurrection at the nation's Captial on Jan. 6, 2021. What struck me was how powerful a calm, fact-based, and as-best-as-I-remember personal testimony can be. Likewise, personal testimony here at GSC by former followers who tell the truth about what happened to them while associated with The Way can and HAS helped people understand the dangers of cultic manipulation. And I KNOW it has helped steer some people away from The Way. Some of them write to me. Some of them, particularly some from my daughter's generation whose parents are still in denial about the abuses of VPW, etc., reach out to me after reading Undertow. Thank you, Greasespotters, for your support of Undertow over the years. I urge all of us to continue telling our stories in a manner that invites thoughtful consideration. It's up to us to inform and to heal former Way followers when we can. Let's lay off any distracting nonsense (that shows up in some threads here) and remember: every word matters.

Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.

Why I Wrote My Story -- Insanity on Steroids Five years ago, I put in writing here at GSC my experiences from those last ten years with The Way International. The reasons why I wrote my story were.....1) to send a warning to all those involved in twi and others considering taking classes from this cult, 2) an attempt to differentiate between Scripture-based Christians and twi's lockstep loyalty of servitude, and 3) to expose twi's incremental steps to overthrow one's will and consent. There are no fences with concertina wire to hold them prisoners, but there are very-real doctrines of fear and deception interlocking to prevent escape. Insanity on Steroids The strongholds of twi's prison are constantly praised and enforced by 1) Twi's MOG-doctrine and 2) the pfal class. In twi-mythology, wierwille was "the man of God" (to the whole world) who was called to teach the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. Secondly, the pfal class contained the essence of "the Word" that students were to stand on and never allow anyone to talk them out of it. Both elements, like rebar and concrete......keep twi's foundation "solid." No twi-imprisonment would be possible without the way corps.......like guards and walls, to keep the inmates from escaping into nearby communities, jobs/careers and family. Wierwille devised the corps program knowing that his (stolen) pfal class was not enough to keep people involved.....enforcers would be needed to keep them marching forward. Why was Martindale chosen as the second President of The Way International? What did wierwille say was the reason for choosing him? I have often cited that wiewille's corps leaders were abandoning him as early as 1978. Thus, he began to write "personal" corps letters in an attempt to strengthen that corps household bond. It didn't work. More and more corps were waking up to the fact that this "lifetime of Christian service" was in reality a life of twi-servitude. And, underneath the surface.....many corps were making plans of their own. When wierwille died in 1985, the full measure of that seething pot came to a boil. Let the splintering begin. Martindale was chosen to lead twi, according to wierwille.....because he ALWAYS OBEYED. Full stop. Period. Wierwille gave no other explanation......and THAT should have sent chills down our spines in 1981. According to vpw, martindale wouldn't ask how high he was to jump, he just jumped. Always. That was the criteria for being chosen as the cult's ..... twi's next president. · Geer took measures to undermine and sabotage twi's trustees. · Martindale seemed to actually believe he was the new "man of God." · Don and Howard wanted to keep the trains (and money) rolling in. · Rosalie (and Donna) were cunningly planning a coup. · John Lynn and others saw opportunities to start splinter groups. With Geer's paper, The Passing of a Patriarch, it is quite easy to see the bold strokes of a power-grab. Wierwille's death caused a flurry of activity and now, Martindale's peers were not going to accept his leadership as Chief Bottle Washer. Tumultuous times ensued and an euphemism "the fog years" was inserted to describe those ugly, back-stabbing years. No matter which leader or ex-leader you chose to associate with......they ALL had the baggage of cult-doctrine. Corps leaders, all of them, had gone thru an indoctrination program. Perhaps, the best choice would have been to keep one's distance for at least 10 years and see where the chips fall. I did not make that smart choice. I chose to stay involved with twi......and hence, those 10 years seeing Insanity on Steroids. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. With hindsight 20/20.....all of us here at GSC know now each choice involving Corps Leadership or Ex-Corps Leadership was fraught with error. Some of us chose to stand with martindale. Some chose geer. Some chose lynn. Some went back to a local church. Some chose to be left alone (smart choice). Thankfully, I only stayed until 1998. Other corps, and many corps coordinators (Moynihans, Forts, Horneys, Magnellis)......stayed until 2016/2017. Another 18 years being micro-managed by Rosalie Fox Rivenbark!!! And, one of the things that I find so amazing is that NOT ONE OF THESE CORPS LEADERS (cough, cough) have come clean. They STILL actively follow the path of wierwille-doctrine giving (subtle) allegiance to wierwille and his plagiarized teachings. With that in mind.....it makes it all the more important that our stories are out there!!! Splinter leaders are no different that their mother-cult. Same indoctrination path to idolatry. · How many have heard our warnings and changed course? · Lives, marriages, families, and careers have gained stronger footing. · Body blows have been given to twi and splinter groups. · Possibly, hundreds of thousands abs (millions?) have alluded twi's grasp. · Even 100s of indoctrinated corps have bailed in the past 15 years. · GreaseSpot Cafe continues to ROCK.....woohoo!!! Five years later, all the aspects of my life are better. Actually, pretty damn good (knock on wood). My critical thinking skills have skyrocketed and I spot manipulation and bullschit a mile away. I can't imagine what my life would be like had I not taken that challenging LEAP TO FREEDOM. Nor, can I imagine the hurt, guilt, and limitations that it would have imposed on our kids. Thank God for the scales falling from my eyes. Cults herd people into a chasm of dependency......mentally, physically, socially, and financially. They prey on your weakness and close the gates to your escape. Sure, you're around other "like-minded" sheep/cattle.....but are you being prepared for the slaughterhouses? Cults thrive on dependency and silence. Subjugating and institutionalizing people are their hallmarks of oppression. Those corps leaders who remain silent are complicit in the evil. So, keep telling your stories. .

It was worse than that. We worked secular jobs that we couldn't focus on to earn money to pay for rent for a large enough home to hold church meetings in. Then on top of that we sent in tithes and offerings from those earnings. All so we could have the privilege to work a fulltime non paid job doing all the leg work so jackasses in high towers can act important and make policy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why 95% of their leadership training graduates have fled for more rational endeavors.

I didn't meet John, personally. I do remember rather vividly, though, a teaching of his on grace. He was a pitcher, presumably for his college baseball team. "There I was -- up by a run in the bottom of the ninth. By SOME STRANGE TWIST OF FATE, the bases were loaded with nobody out. I struck out the next two batters with six BLAZING fastballs. At that point, the first baseman told me that with two out, he wouldn't be holding the runner on. Of course, I knew that. After two pitches to the batter, I could see the runner at first with a big lead, so I completely forgot what the first baseman had told me. I wheeled to throw to first, and life went into slow motion. I couldn't throw to first, because the first baseman wasn't there. I couldn't hold on to the ball, because that would be a balk and bring the tying run in. So, I threw it to the RUNNER. Reflexively, he caught it, then dropped it like a hot potato and started running. The umpire called him out for interference. Game over. Grace: being completely in the wrong but coming out smelling like a rose." Rest in peace, John. George

John Lynn was certainly dedicated and laser-focused on things that mattered to him. Whether it was biblical research, books that he authored or basketball at Emporia......John wanted everyone within earshot to enter into his world of interests. He was our Emporia Campus Corps Coordinator my last year in-residence and would turn our noon lunchtime into an hour of teaching. Other times, he had stories to make us laugh. I agree with those who suggest keeping this as a memorial thread. Critiquing someone's life's choices publicly upon death is what twi-leadership would do.... especially when way corps died. It was grating and disturbing, not comforting and supporting. This is a time to comfort and eulogize a man who was deeply dedicated and passionate about life. May the God of all Comfort bless the Lynn family and loved ones in their sorrow.

A. A complicated man with a complicated legacy. In many ways, the embodiment of my post-TWI determination not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. He truly believed, as many of us once did, that we were privileged with something extraordinary but imperfect, and he dedicated his life to improving it. Along the way he embraced and promoted some indefensible stuff, and he defended it with a stubborn passion that would be admirable in the service of a more worthy cause. When he met me, I felt broken. He did his best to heal my heart, to restore the sense of spiritual family I lost at a time of personal crisis. He refused to judge me or condemn me. I admire his dedication. As it gave way to stubbornness... let his legacy be a warning.

We didn't see eye to eye. I wish his family well. I did like his sense of humor. And he led the charge against the way. Opened the eyes of many.

Absolutely! Looks like even the very same diagrams!!! The only person I'd be able eto stomach listening to is the black guy. He sounds enthusiastic and as if he has actually "made the word his own" and doesn't parrot word for word exactly what has been said since PFAL was first recorded. Nothing tempts me to consider for a millisecond undergoing this class ever again. But remember. "The word of God is the will of God." Okay? Well, the word is all about ACTIONS. Love God, and show it by doing things. Being kind to people. Being giving, being kind and compassionate. Forgiving one another. Looking out for the needs of others, and selflessly tending those needs. Getting out there and mixing with all sorts of people - good, bad, low in status or high in status. Absolutely none of "the will of God" is about sitting in a fancy ivory tower, or even a fancy auditorium, and listening and scribbling notes to oneself. Even less about isolating oneself to only hang out with others just like you.

I left in 1986 and stumbled onto Waydale around 1999 perhaps. I spoke to Paul Allen one time, too. He was calmly furious at twi and determined to push them as far as he could. IMO, it was because the Allens filed suit that lcm was "fired?" as Prez and then left HQ. It was because of Waydale and the Allen's fearless approach to those bullies that this happened. LCM was forced out of the ranks. Perhaps advice from twi's lawyers to put the abuser as far away from the Corporation as possible ushered that departure forward. Later donna divorced him. I scoured Waydale a lot and posted there, too. They took documents and other info from HQ and posted it online. For example, Waydale posted audio clips of lcm's rants from SNS teachings on all he hated, homosexuals and seed boyz and all that crap, and posted them. Having left in 1986 I was stunned at what was going on, and by how much tighter the leash had been tightened up there. From Waydale I learned about the command to tithe and the review of 1040's to check income and enforce tithing. I learned Corpse were full time per lcm. I learned that everyone within a 200 mile radius, was it??, had to attend one SNS every month because the vpw wow auditorium was not getting filled too much. I learned I was DFAC, hahaha. And there is more. The links in this post are good, and even Waydale is linked in this site. For me, Waydale was a great site. And, the info they had was transferred here, a lot of it, before they shut down per the settlement. I think they only had a week or so to make that transition. Greasespot is the direct descendant of Waydale. I thank the Allens for what they did. In all sincerity, I do believe that TWI would still be in a much better position with supporters and finances had Waydale not come along. It was also the first major site that Ex- way like me could go and touch base see some of our Brothers and Sister's from back then using Friend Finder. Before that there was really no where to go.

I think of a few memories of dealing with major LOSS events in my life. First, I go back to 1986 to clarify (once again) that my exit from TWI was not a matter of Mark and Avoid on their part. Next I go back to childhood to recall when a pet dog, Barney the beagle, died. I was maybe 8 to 10 years old. I was devastated. To avoid recurrence of that pain, I never wanted to have another dog. But we did get another dog eventually. In my late 30s, my brother, 15 months younger than I was, died suddenly as a result of undisclosed heart disease at age 36. I cried every time I thought of him, for at least the next year. Then there was the divorce, which was bad enough, but when my daughter was 13, she and I became estranged and I had no contact with her for the next seven years. I cried a lot over that pain. However, I have long continued to seek understanding and wisdom. I am no longer estranged from my daughter, who is now in her 30s. She has also given me (and three other grandparents) two lovely grandchildren and now has another on the way. Emotionally and socially, I can and do reflect back on those experiences with thankfulness. They (the experiences) are all bittersweet. I am only now who I am for having gone through them. Maybe one day (or many days) I too will write a memoir, including my time in TWI.

Good lord. Is your "gas" only $5/gallon? To answer the question about "extra cash" - right now, people are buying food. Or electricity. Or maybe "gas" for their cars. Nothing stretches to buying all of these. Rapidly increasing prices for everything here is leading to "heat or eat" for some people. I could talk about budgeting ability, debt management, etc, but the fact is that prices for everything have risen hugely and rapidly. A full tank of fuel in my car now costs at least twice as much as it did at the beginning of the year. Electricity and gas also have doubled. This has knock-on effects on all needful things delivered to shops and supermarkets, etc. State benefits (unemployment, sickness, etc, and old age state pensions haven't increased and were already very tight for managing on. Just about enough, until something goes wrong. Like the car needing repairs, the children needing new school uniforms, the fridge packing up. So what I'm doing with some of my spare cash is buying extra tinned and dry food to put into Foodbanks, for distribution to needy people.

"The recovery process for me post Way has involved taking back control over each area of my life that I had relinquished control to the Way. It has been a slow arduous process ..." It is that! From what I've seen and read from former Wayfers, few do this. Please, take time out to reflect, study, rethink. Life is short.

It is almost impossible to overstate how much this reeks of bullcrap. I'll be gentle: If Euclidian geometry were wrong on one point, Euclidian geometry would be perfectly content to remove that one point and salvage all the others. This is not true of PFAL and God's Word. By PFAL's standard, if the wrong pronoun is used in the wrong place, the entire word of God falls to pieces. Nothing in Euclidian geometry makes that kind of assertion about the whole of geometry. Further, let's dispense with the intelligence-insulting conditional "if" in your opening sentence. We produced more than 30 such contradictions and errors, even after handicapping ourselves with a ludicrously generous definition of "error," and for you to come here 20 years later and say "IF there are contradictions" is such a craptacular crapfest of crappy crap that it needs to be flushed before toilet paper is applied because no septic or sewage system could handle the volume. By the way, to avoid an allegation of plagiarism, the old poster Mr. PMosh gets partial credit for the preceding paragraph. If PFAL were God-breathed, it would be correct about the characteristics of the God-breathed Word. And if it were God-breathed and therefore correct about the characteristics of the God-breathed Word, it would share those characteristics. It doesn't. We've demonstrated it time and again. In 20 years, you have not adequately addressed a single demonstrated error/contradiction. You just pretend they don't exist. Dodge. Distract. Deny. Never admit an error is an error. It's dishonest handling of "The Word" and it would insult our intelligence if it were possible for us to think any lesser of your tactics.

Not only does scripture interpret itself, it writes itself and reads itself. Similarly, poetry interprets itself, writes itself and reads itself. Or, art interprets itself, paints itself, views itself. See? Isn't that just wonderful!! Bless your little hearts. I wish you could read it in the original.

I came over here so I wouldnt have to respond to you at all.

Excerpts from the first draft for a totally revised burnt orange book “Power For Materialistic Living Today”, page 3, Introduction: The Materialistic Life …This post literally changed my life. My extraordinary life first began on Myspace, plodding ahead with keeping up with the Joneses; but somehow, I lacked a very materialistic life. Then one time I was especially alerted when I read on social media that there was a man with a Th.M. (a degree in Materialistic Theology) who said he had come to give us an even more materialistic life. I was stupefied into submission. I looked about on social media and compared my current Facebook account where I post mostly pictures of myself. I could see that many online communities were manifesting a more materialistic life than I was. Thus, I earnestly began to pursue the question, “If this materialistic specialist came so that men and women might have a more materialistic life, why is it that my selfies on Facebook do not manifest even a materialistic life?”

After I had been out for a while, it occurred to me that nobody even noticed I was gone. So much for "We sure do love you.".

I grew up in TWI. My folks took PFAL in the 70s and met each other afterwards, they will die Wayfers. They worked with leadership to prevent my leaving TWI. I was married to someone who had a similar, less severe, situation. I know everyone in a cult knows they are in a cult. Like drugs or alcohol, they are in a cult to hide. They know what they are doing is wrong. Their family members have pointed it out for decades. They argue in circles. I know the cruelest people are the family. I know it's all crabs in a bucket. You'll find folks raised in other cults like JWs have similar experiences. It's not sunshine and rainbows when you leave. You won't die from it. The best thing you can do sometimes is cut the cord and go no contact for a long period of time and change yourself. They won't care why.

From the above link.... "Communal ‘hippie house’ in S.F. Bay Area was ground zero for Jesus Movement By Mark Ellis – They called it the Big House, a large ranch house in Novato, California, situated on a former egg farm, where four hippie couples set their careers aside to live together with their children at the height of the Sixties. Evangelist Lonnie Frisbee crashed on their living room floor during the formative months of his early Christian life and grew under their influence, before he joined Pastor Chuck Smith and rode the wave of the Spirit in Southern California. Steve and Sandi Heefner were influential in getting the four couples together. Steve, a disc jockey, landed in the Bay Area with his wife in 1965. “We moved a lot, every year, because of radio, to get to a bigger market,” he notes. They settled in Sausalito and began reaching out to make friends. Sandi went to a Newcomer’s Club put on by the city and met Liz Wise, who appeared “exotic.” Sandi, a nominal Roman Catholic, planned a dinner party with Liz and her husband Ted, a former agnostic who had recently become a Christian. Sandy also invited Jim and Judy Doop, grade school friends from the East Bay. The three couples hit it off in a spectacular fashion. Once they got to know each other, Ted and Liz invited friends from Berkeley, Danny and Sandy Sands, into their group. “This was not an accumulation of Christians wanting something to happen, we were just friends trying to get to know each other,” Sandy notes. Ted Wise had recently been tripping on LSD, trying to figure out what to do with his life, when he met Jesus Christ and was born again. Some credit Ted as being the first convert of the Jesus People Movement. “Ted began to talk about putting something together that would further Jesus Christ into ordinary lives,” Sandi recalls. “We started discussing this thing and decided we would have potlucks together.” Then the idea progressed to finding a house where they could live together – including the seven young children between them. Sandi was initially wary about communal living, but Ted and the others were swept up in the enthusiasm of “what was happening at the time.” “I was not for it,” Sandi admits. But then she had an unusual experience that changed her thinking and renewed her faith. “Steve and I were having a lot of marital problems and were not getting along,” she recalls. “Our arguments and differences were becoming public.” A sign in the night sky One weekend Steve and Sandi decided they would go camping together along the coast. They couldn’t seem to find the right campsite and stopped at a hamburger stand, where the couple began arguing in public. “That night I was so ....ed I didn’t even put my sleeping bag near him. I was crying to the Lord. I knew my marriage was dissolving.” As Sandi looked up at the night sky, she saw an unusual formation of stars she had never seen before. “I saw a huge figure-eight made out of stars.” She recognized it as a sign from God, that “He is contacting me and I’m supposed to be the eighth member of this community. I knew that was his signal to me personally and I understood I was called. But I was way out of my element as a Roman Catholic,” she says. As far as they knew, they were the first Christian hippie community in northern California. “We were the first one I had heard of, of real families with small children and careers, dropping everything to become an evangelical arm.” “They gave up everything, sold everything and moved in together,” Connie Frisbee recalls. “Many people think this is where the explosion happened. I find this story about these four couples as big as the story about Lonnie, because these people were in their twenties and had jobs. They had lives that were already moving in a direction. “It would be like coming to me after I worked at UPS for 10 years and had kids and saying quit your job, take your kids and move in with these other four couples, sell everything you have and just keep what you need to function as one unit. That was an enormous sacrifice.” “They decided to live like the Book of Acts,” she adds. Some referred to their commune as the House of Acts. People in the neighborhood began to notice. “The word got out in Novato that there was a hippie community so we attracted all the teenagers from Novato,” Sandi says. “So every day after school there would be a bunch of kids sitting in our living room wanting to know what was happening. There was magic in the air. We witnessed to them about Jesus. On Friday nights the house was jammed with teens, the Lord brought the crowd. Many souls were harvested.” As the four couples and their children settled into the Big House in 1967, an unusual social phenomenon was taking place that summer in San Francisco. Thousands of young people in hippie attire were converging on the city’s Haight Ashbury district. “We started taking donuts on a Friday night into San Francisco because so many kids were coming into town,” Steve recounts. It turned into street conversations, with the couples witnessing for Christ. The need was so great, they decided to set up a mission in the city that became known as The Living Room. “The Living Room was a little storefront,” Connie Frisbee recalls. “It was one block down off Haight on Page in what is called the Panhandle.” Several churches in the area provided support to help them get started. The four women in the Big House made a huge batch of soup using a baby bottle sterilizer and the men carried it into the city in the morning and it was given away for free. “People would come in and chat and have soup. One day Charles Manson came through and that was rattling. He was just a weird kid that came to lunch.” “You never knew when you woke up that morning where God was going to send you to minister that day,” Sandi says. Sometimes they would go to Market Street or Golden Gate Park to spread the Gospel. They would go out wherever God was leading them for the day, in twos or threes. When the men returned to the house from their daily outreach in the city they always had extra guests with them. The guests could stay for several days. “Every night there was a meal laid out of homemade breads and chicken enchiladas and vegetables. We brought as many people to the house as we could and witness to them,” Connie Frisbee recounts. Much of the food was donated by local stores. “We would sit around in the evening and read the Bible, play conga drums, beat on books or maracas and worship the Lord that way. We would talk about our day with the Holy Spirit. Had God given anybody any insights? Did they read something in the Bible they didn’t understand? We would discuss and come to a better understanding of it. “There wasn’t a set pattern. It wasn’t like every Sunday we do this. It wasn’t like that. It was really moving in the Spirit. We saw so many miracles and so many coincidences. We just knew God was doing stuff in our lives all the time.” The kids they invited to stay were rough around the edges. “Some had not bathed, but covered it with patchouli oil. I can’t stand the smell of it. Every sleeping bag and towel reeked of that oil,” Sandi recounts. With four couples, seven children, plus additional guests, there were usually 20 mouths to feed every night. “We had these extra kids coming and had no income at the time. We were living on the graciousness of our Father.” “Some of the men would get painting jobs,” Connie Frisbee recalls. “One was a cigarette salesman. Ted Wise was a sail maker. Steve Heefner was a disc jockey but lost his job because he told people he accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior.” Steve and another one of the men made $20 a week sweeping a church. “We could count on $20 a week for food,” Sandi notes. “We had a communal moneybox on the wall in the kitchen. If you got any money you put it in, and if you needed any you took it out. All four families lived on that little box. For a year and a half we never knew how we were going to be fed that day and God never missed a meal.” The couples had surprisingly little conflict. “We were so busy evangelizing there was no time for minor skirmishes,” Sandi says. The largest bedroom in the House of Acts was given to the children. “All seven children were in one bedroom. My son was out of his gourd he was so excited. The room was trashed almost every day. We asked who did this? They would all point to someone else, so you would have six different versions of who did it. The kids loved it. But we were working all the time.” Lonnie Frisbee arrives Steve met Lonnie Frisbee in Haight Ashbury walking down the street. At the time, Lonnie was attending the San Francisco School of Art. “Lonnie was a spectacular character. He was an out front, open witness at that time, known on the street,” Steve says. Lonnie was also a new believer that needed some help sorting out his theology. “They saw him telling people about Jesus on the streets, but he had flying saucers mixed in with the presentation of Jesus,” Connie Frisbee recalls. “They ministered to Lonnie and he saw the ability to be in service all the time so he moved in with them. Lonnie began sleeping in a sleeping bag on the living room floor of the Big House. “Lonnie was very L.A. and a showbiz kid,” Sandi says. “He was out there even for us. He did spectacular things — miracles. “Lonnie would be driving down the road and tell somebody, ‘turn at this corner, stop at the next stop.’ There would be somebody standing on the corner that he knew when he was a child. Lonnie would jump out, and the person would get saved right there on the corner. “It happened over and over and over again. He had long hair like Jesus and wore robes. When it came to spiritual matters, Lonnie could produce. He was an extension of our community.” Lonnie brought Connie into the Big House and she eventually became his wife. When Connie noticed all the work the women were doing she immediately started helping with the children, the laundry, and the cooking. “She was fabulous,” Sandi recalls. “I’ve never seen hunger for the word like Connie.” Steve and Sandi went away one summer for an intensive Bible study on a farm in Ohio under the direction of Victor Paul Wierwille, the originator of The Way International. When they returned from Ohio and Connie learned about their study of the Word, she began to follow Sandi around. “Every morning before I got out of bed she was dressed and sitting at the door of my bedroom with a paper and pencil ready for me to teach her. She followed me all day long, day after day. This went on day after day. She was waiting for me to get up and teach her. I never saw anybody with that kind of hunger for the Word.” “As Connie and Lonnie hung around they ended up courting and marrying,” Steve adds. When the living room of the House of Acts filled up with young people, shoulder-to-shoulder, they asked a Lutheran church nearby if they could use one of their large meeting rooms. “They allowed us access to their church every Friday night. So we had hundreds of kids come in and many got saved there,” Sandi says. After Steve and Sandi returned from their summer away, they thought their community was slipping into legalism. One of the women living with them had a heavy cigarette problem. “The community decided that since she had a problem nobody could come in who had any cigarettes on them. We knew it was wrong, not based on the Word.” After living in the Big House for 18 months, Steve and Sandi began to seek God about leaving. They were the first couple to depart. “I know some people think we broke it up by being the first to leave, but in reality it was legalism that broke it up,” she says. Looking back, they recognize they were at the forefront of the Jesus movement – the first to catch the wave. “We had to be among the first. I didn’t realize as a Catholic there was such a thing as revivals. I wasn’t looking for it. I didn’t recognize it when we were in living it. But years later I looked back and realized we were at the cusp of a revolution and revival.” The other couples stayed in the house for a while, then went back to their own lives again. “We continued to minister and cooperate with each other,” Sandi says. “We never stopped ministering and continued Bible Studies in our home. I think the country is ready for another revival. I’m hoping I get to see it. I would love to see it come back to the United States. “We had no idea what we were doing. All we know is that we loved the Lord. Every time we got up in the morning we had no idea what he had in store for us that day.” Ted Wise (left) and Danny Sands in The Living Room. Lonnie Frisbee.

Speaking of Heefner and Doop, I came across this bit of history of the early, INDEPENDENT days of the late 1960's hippy Jesus movement. VPW stole their work and followers. https://www.godreports.com/2018/08/communal-hippie-house-in-s-f-bay-area-was-ground-zero-for-jesus-movement/?fbclid=IwAR0Db2IWzotC4dgk3EtA6Hhs6s9ZFzhuIt4muxadCf2CUSWydK9XzJlWe0Y

Oh yeah – you nailed it Bolshevik! An alarming aspect of TWI-follower’s/big PFAL-fans’ fascination with demonology is the amount of control it affords cult-leaders. They elevate consequences for disobedience to the most frightening level. TWI-leadership used the fear of devil spirits, fear of getting possessed and fear of the power and influence exercised by those supposedly “born of the seed of the serpent” the way some parents use the boogeyman to frighten their kids into parental-approved behavior. To NOT follow TWI-guidelines or even worse to recklessly oppose TWI-leadership is to risk punishment from Satan’s minions. That’s something wierwille/Craig did to keep us trapped inside their theological box. We didn’t need to fear what the adversary could steal from us or do to us since wierwille/Craig already stole... or sabotaged our greatest asset – the ability to THINK and CHOOSE.

What makes me think you have time is that you brought up all the points he is addressing. Now that you are being called out to answer each point instead of discipline and mental control you display laziness and attacking others. Congrats, you are more like your “father in the Word” than you realize.

Yeah, sure. It's all our own fault. Could it have been the way we were dressed?

Multiple choice question – worth 4 Rock of Ages meal tickets You know you’re in a cult when ____ A. Your Twig coordinator reproves you for a slip of the tongue when you said, “I sponsor someone in the way cult.” B. Your Twig coordinator finds out about your Christmas bonus and reminds you to abundantly share from that too. C. Your Twig coordinator asks you to teach something new and exciting out of The Blue Book. D. Your Twig coordinator assigns you to under-shepherd the new person he witnessed to on the street and suggests you have him do some odd jobs around your home so he can earn money for the class. E. Your Twig coordinator informs you that God is going to bless you big time for letting the branch use your home for the next PFAL class. F. Your Twig coordinator thanks you profusely for covering the last three auto-mechanic’s bills on his clunker. G. Before making any big decisions you always check with your Twig coordinator. H. Sometimes you feel guilty for wishing your Twig coordinator would drop dead. I. All of the above. J. All without exception

And....it was worse than THAT. Many of us corps were assigned every 3 or 4 years to move to another state. From our meager bank accounts, we paid for the U-hauls, the upfront deposits, moving expenses and any incurred storage fees. Upon arrival, we found grads who were hurt and withdrawn as a result of bullying by the departing corps "leader." So, we rolled up our sleeves and toiled to regain their trust, respect and commitment to standards of moral and spiritual integrity. These gains were achieved by perseverance. Acquiring suitable secular employment was no easy task in a new state. Oftentimes, we didn't have references or recommendations to ease the transition. Needing to "hit the ground running," we had little time to find good secular employment so we'd settle for less....with the prospect of more. Is there any wonder why many corps moved in the circles of self-employment.....painting, landscaping, roofing, window cleaning, commissioned salesperson, etc..... when wierwille demanded ALL CORPS attend Corps Week and ROA each year? These directives exponentially burdened the corps. With each passing year, the central mandates and burdens from hq mounted. Add babies, toddlers and bills to pay....Oh, My! It was not just the secular job, but all the responsibilities that we were expected to juggle in the circus act. Witnessing. Teaching. Running Classes. Paperwork. How could the trunk office staff be SO OBTUSE to this groundswell of abuse leveled at the field corps? No Region, Trunk or Corps Coordinator had the gonads to tell wierwille (or martindale) that field corps could not keep pace with his narcissistic demands. Yeah....those jackasses that strut the halls of the OSC Building are the administrative pencil-pushers and looters of the productive. While many of us went into worn-torn states, toiled 70-80 hour weeks and saw God's grace and power in action......the directors, with their greedy-beady eyes, stashed more cash into twi-coffers. Robbing the areas of their strength and ability to grow and prosper....rather than keeping 85% in the state to use for operating expenses, room, building, etc. [agreement that Jimmy Doop outlined with wierwille]. This centralized funneling of abundant sharing to headquarters has been plundering states and areas since its devious inception. If you ever want to grasp the magnitude of how destructive these cult mandates were to the corps, just look at the massive exodus of field branch, area and limb coordinators. THOSE are the men and women who toiled in the trenches to help others until they could no longer withstand the financial burdens, the plundering from hq in God's name, the bullying and spiritual abuse. Not the staffers at hq. Not the advanced class grads ensconced in good-paying secular employment. The field corps. That's why ruthless directors at HQ are clamoring to have these seasoned field leaders return .

Seldom do I venture over into the Memoriam Thread......but I did today and saw that DMiller had passed away. Age 68 (too young). And further, there was only 1 reply to this announcement....to a guy who'd posted on this site 12,421 times. ~~~~~~~~~ So, in light of that.....I just wanted to say.... Thank you, posters..... for sharing your stories, interests and viewpoints here at GreaseSpot. Those who posted years ago, thank you!! Sometimes, I venture back into pages 140-185 to re-read some of those fascinating threads and debates. Certain posters that I knew in person.... I found/find it interesting to learn things from their area and viewpoint. What happened? Why people stayed? Why people left? Why people went back.....then left again? As some posters have shared thru the years......we view those that leave GSC as "success stories." This is a place of support, help, concern and forgiveness. Some accuse us of bitterness for confronting wierwille's twi with their deception, fraud and sins.....but, in truth, it is WE who are standing firm on truth, values and dignity. But for twi-leadership, past and present, that extended forgiveness must first be accompanied with godly sorrow to repentance....before forgiveness grants one a refreshing confidence (II Cor. 7:8-16). So, until Paw wants to close shop here or pass the responsibilities onto someone else.....looks like the 'Spot will continue to support the weary of heart. So, faithful posters.....thanks!! If I drop off the radar and you read my obituary in the near future (hopefully, years from now)......I just wanted to cover my thanksgiving bases and let you know I appreciate all your support. And, if it's not too much trouble.....maybe a few of you guys could get a quartet together and sing at my funeral. Thanks. .

According to someone I trust for reliable information......twi is starting to reach out and solicit/summon ex-corps grads to come back. Apparently, there is a growing demand for Limb coordinators. Huge swaths of states do NOT have adequate or no leadership. Seems that few are willing to take on the task and challenge of running a state. What could possibly be the reasons? A non-salary position......and confrontation from the bod-leadership every week? The grueling paperwork and reporting back to distant overlords? Enduring a no-upside situation.....and neglecting wife/kids in the process? Being micro-managed by hypocritic Pharisees? At the smallest mistake, having your name sullied thru the mud at corps meetings? If you think about quitting.....you will be on the blunt end of character assassination? Also, it was said that the board of directors is implementing some of Bob Moneyhands' suggestions from that letter. Yes, Bob (and others) did suggest that the no-debt policy should be tossed. Yes, Bob (and others) did suggest that corps who were wronged should be invited back. Are they going to start up a "research team" again? I'm positive that twi knows who I am......and has photocopied hundreds of my GSC threads. I will not be getting a phone call......thankfully. It wouldn't matter if they apologized for Martindale's and Lally's 1998 Character Assassination on my life and reputation. They publically lied about us to keep us from exposing the sullied underbelly of Martindale's sexual predation and twi's whitewashing this information. Rosalie knew. They all knew. No matter.........I ain't going back. Never. Ever.

"I wish I were the man I know to be." victor paul wierwille I wish......... I were........ I know....... Translation: I see myself (a projected image) on a glorious stage as a world-renowned leader knowing there are millions upon millions who crave to hear me teach. When I speak, the throngs of crowds before me listen with reverence silence.........to hear words of majestic importance for their lives. From their subservient demeanor, I am assured that the Lord has called me to this great endeavor, place and time. .

I hate to be the one to break it to you, Mike, but..... you overrate your significance on this board. Things don't revolve around you, nor do we wish you'd suddenly start posting again when you take a break. This SHOULD be comforting- as in, there's less pressure to perform, but more likely, it's LESS comforting for someone who's still searching for converts to his belief system. BTW, being on the spectrum would remove a lot of the stigma of your refusal to converse in a civil manner like everyone else, since you might be unable to see the difference. That wouldn't be an "attack", it would partly excuse you for previous incidents.

Nearly 7 out of 10 Americans have at least one dose. Nearly 6 out of 10 are fully vaccinated. Boosters are available for certain groups but not everyone at this time. Children 5 - 11 can be vaccinated now at the schools around here. Most people are getting vaccinated. Apparently there is controversy about the difference between treating worms and a viral disease. Made more controversial by the complete lack of clarity as to why this is a controversy.

Going for my booster jab tomorrow. Yes, I believe God to keep me safe - and to keep others safe. I believe I have a great natural immune system, to which loads of fresh fruit and veg, exercise, and a healthy lifestyle contribute. I also believe God gave me the common sense to take reasonable precautions. I continue to wear a mask in shops, etc, and gel my hands wherever possible (even though these actions are no longer legally required) - and (though I'm needle-phobic), I get necessary inoculations. No way am I giving this virus to any of the many very elderly people that I know. (Don't want it myself, either.)

This mRNA technology sounds like it's going to open the door to many new solutions, so that's fascinating. However, joining a cult like The Way is like a type of addiction. There is no vaccine except education. Social distancing might help since it can reduce contact with potential recruiters. The internet however, is still a place where one could be indoctrinated. One could practice social media distancing as well.

I'm going briefly off-topic here to alert readers that the Covid information posted above is glaringly incorrect and, quite frankly, dangerous. Okay, back to the topic at hand.

Not for a moment do I think it's fair game to go after grieving family members.

Ah, but a DIFFERENT thread is a memorial. I was going to leave that thread completely alone. I had no PERSONAL dealings with JAL, and thus no memories to share. I also wasn't going to make a new thread JUST to call out dangerous teachings. However, since this one was started, I consider it fair game. :) It's one thing to go out of your way to do a character-assassination on someone. Somebody leaves twi, and immediately the spin doctors grab the microphone and begin a smear campaign with vague connections to reality. The person was a model Christian up until the moment before they left twi, NOW they're scum! It's another to point out that someone-who made himself a PUBLIC FIGURE and worked hard to do so- has disseminated dangerous misinformation to the public. For this post, Í'm going to skip the dangerous "Momentus" push he did where people were hurt, and the dangerous "personal prophecy" movement that ruined lives and wrecked marriages. I'm JUST going to go by the video that was linked, and what he said about the global pandemic, during its height. Only going by this one video.... A) He said masks are useless against COVID. That's false. That was known `100 years ago with the "Spanish Flu" and it's true now as well. He said all the authorities speaking up were wrong and that if you listened to the "right sources", you'd know that. No mention of WHO those right sources were, can't fact-check if he's correct, of course. At that level, he's floating a rumor. B) He said COVID was no worse than a flu. Outside the US, this isn't a political thing in many countries- it's acknowledged this is a worldwide killer. Again, no sources for his outrageous claim. C) Claim the CDC said many of the cases (he said "MOST") of the cases were due to comorbidities, so that meant that COVID wasn't to blame there. That shows an ignorance of basic epidemiology. With an "opportunistic infection", something occupies and wears down the immune system, and something else- which normally wouldn't be dangerous- gets in and does a lot of harm or kills someone. So, if there was no COVID, the "co-morbidity" would not have been a significant issue. So, his own words there, for those with a layman's grasp of medicine, show he doesn't understand what he's passing along. He may believe it, but that doesn't make it true, and it doesn't make it harmless. D) He said it's worse to wear the masks than to risk catching COVID. E) He said the isolation protocols have been keeping people from attending church. He hasn't gotten around that much. Virtual church-going got REALLY popular during 2020. F) He said "most" vaccines- with COVID the context- are "HARMFUL", No medical authority has embraced this, and they keep refuting this. All the medical experts rushed out to get vaccinated as soon as was possible. In fact, many people who got on the media and claimed there may have been problems with the vaccines were all quick to get vaccinated. Again, no source, just another rumor he floated. G) He said the US death rate for COVID was 0.0 something death rate. He said he doesn't "worry about it at all", and repeated that the masks were useless, and tells nurses not to bother with them. He mentioned "the true science" with no mention of where one can look it up. So, hidden (OCCULTED) knowledge where he refuses to cite his sources. All of that, if followed, runs between "highly-suspect" (hidden sources) and potentially fatal (skipping the vaccines.) In a lot of the world, this isn't about politics, it's about PUBLIC HEALTH and bipartisan support for measures were common. In countries where this was a political football, the body counts for COVID shot up (like Brazil.) Comedian Gabriel Iglesias is in poor health. He's morbidly obese, has diabetes, and other health problems. He caught the Delta variant of COVID, and took 1 day of bed-rest. He was fine afterwards- because he got BOTH vaccination doses. If one follows JAL's counsel on COVID, one runs the risk of getting the disease, and possibly dying, or possibly passing it along to other family members and friends. Places where vaccination has been up are often maintaining social distancing and mask-wearing, and otherwise are returning to normal- as much as one can while doing both. The places where the highest rates of people getting COVID and dying of COVID correlate directly to places where people remain unvaccinnated. That's a problem for 3rd world countries that can't get vaccines, and that's a problem in the US in counties where people say their personal freedoms are being infringed upon. I agree with what Arnold Schwarzenegger said on this. Your personal freedoms have responsibilities. JAL had the courage of his convictions, and practiced what he preached- which, apparently, led directly to his death. At least he was CONSISTENT. If this post ends up getting chopped up by staff, I'm sorry. I tried to stick to the medical facts and as clear of politics as I could manage.

I never knew John personally, but I know quite a few people here did. To them and to his family and friends I offer my condolences.

Thanks for your words Raf. Im a bit emotional this morning after hearing the news and (for once...lol) really couldn't string the words together in an apporpriate manner to express what you said. I really liked him on a personal level but I just couln't follow him into another ministry when asked. I wish I could have done more for him on a personal level but stubbornness is a key word here. I respected him and my heart goes out to his loved ones.

Make sure you take your Vitamin D. (Most people have a deficiency due to lack of adequate exposure to sunlight). It maintains your immune system. There is an abundance of scientific data detailing its importance. A doctor can run a blood test and make recommendations on proper dosage.

"VPW is DEAD! 37 yrs and counting. I believe he had a one of a kind ministry. Back in 1980 or so, the coordinator of the music group I was in said that VP was the 7th "THE man of God" and that this was very significant. I never heard that same message from anybody else and I'm not sure what it even means, but I do believe that VPs combination of gift ministries was unique, not cookie cutter. Nobody has duplicated the respect and impact he got from his people." Ok, leaving aside the usual delusions about how vpw motivated "his" people, and how he used showmanship to INSINUATE he was getting Revelation all the time, and plagiarized his way through other people's writings and conspiracy theory hotlines and make it sound like he was getting that all by Revelation, and his rephrasing of the definitions of all the "gift ministries" so that he could INSINUATE he had them all when he had none of them, leaving those aside...... What's this business about "vpw was the 7th THE man of God"? Who, supposedly, were the other 6, and what did this reference even mean? Someone once claimed that exactly 3 people in history ever faced the devil directly- Jesus Christ, Paul and vpw. Where does this stuff even COME FROM? No, seriously, I'm asking because I want to know. Anybody?

First - Thank you all for every word you've ever written here. GSC has been an invaluable source of insight into the pathology of twi. Now, onto topic relevance: Thanks for the LCM Archive.org link. I've been looking for LCM material there for some time, but without success. (Archive.org is great, but vast and cumbersome to navigate.) Archive.org also has lots of vpw material, including full transcripts and audio of AC '71/'79; full transcripts and audio of Romans Corps teaching from vpw; full video of vpw teaching CF&S, excluding the beastiality. Vpw and lcm's voices cause me to recoil in severe, vomitous discomfort, but I find the transcripts are helpful to see through the utter BS, inaccuracies, fallacies and childish exegesis.

You know you’re in a harmful and controlling cult when leadership endeavors to micromanage your faith, your social life, your finances, and all of your relationships with their leave-no-stone-unturned-invasive-strategy. You know you’re in a pseudo-Christian cult when leadership endeavors to take the place of the absent Christ through the lordship of their Pharisaism. You know you’re in a life-dominating-morally-depraved-cult when leadership behaves as if they are above the laws of the land – being a law unto themselves. You know you’re in a life-sucking-money-grubbing-cult when they tell you that the truth will set you free – but the truth itself is not free – because there’s a minimum required donation for the stupid class.

Great correlations, Skyrider and it brings more thoughts to mind – that last paragraph is just scintillating ! The first thing my mind went to is the passage: “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!” Matthew 23:15 NLT The entire chapter 23rd chapter of Matthew is an exposé on religious hypocrites. The label of “drill sergeants of groupthink indoctrination” makes me think of my ways corps training. And this is a real weird and out of focus concept I’m still trying to articulate. Way corps program created by the premier hypocrite – wierwille. His first attempt zeros out - which makes me think of an old proverb “Those who can, do; those who can't, teach” which means those who are especially skilled in a certain field will be able to pursue a successful career, while those who are less skilled will end up teaching about it instead. What that may indicate is that the work done in that field is too challenging, or simply the lack of capacity on their part....so wierwille even failed at being a teacher...or did he? Now here’s a quirky concept: what if the way corps training was really a clone factory – with a curriculum designed to turn out the ideal hypocrite – little wierwilles. Not everyone is going to excel at hypocrisy but those who do may aspire to be the corps coordinators and assistants. (Thought of the day to go along with Matthew 23:15 “each one hypocrifry one” – not sure if “hypocrifry” is a real word – but it could be – “I wish you could see it in the original – it’s just oh no…” Hypocrisy – noun - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense. Hypocrifry – verb - to cook someone’s conscience in a pan, griddle or way corps campus over the blistering heat of constant beratement especially with the use of fat (the natural sleazy, greasy, creepy substance occurring in the body of wierwille’s “doctrine”). * * * * and now a brief intermission * * * Talk amongst yourselves Do the 4-15s note to self: find out how vampires take a self-assessment if they don’t see their own reflection in a mirror Now back to our show… “It seems to ALWAYS be the corps coordinators and assistants ...... who start up Splinter Cults” and the beat goes on – meaning the virus of wierwille’s-hypocrisy-rich-doctrine moves on regardless of whether or not other suckers fall for it. Virus just might be an apt description of wierwille’s-hypocrisy-rich-doctrine. I’m trying to remember wierwille’s advanced class teaching regarding detecting devil spirits – something like “whenever something has life in itself it’s spirit” – or some bull$hit like that…what does it matter…it’s just more bull$hit from the spiritualism-musings-of-an-ancient-hypocrite…anyway, that got me thinking about how viruses replicate – something I remember from reading The Hot Zone: The Terrifying True Story of the Origins of the Ebola Virus by Richard Preston explaining how viruses work – they can’t reproduce – so they sneak into other cells and tell them “make more of me”. Sounds like wierwille talking doesn’t it. Did a quick search of how viruses replicate and found this: “Viruses cannot replicate on their own, but rather depend on their host cell’s protein synthesis pathways to reproduce. This typically occurs by the virus inserting its genetic material in host cells, co-opting the proteins to create viral replicates, until the cell bursts from the high volume of new viral particles.” from News-Medical Net Health: viral replication almost sounds like the strategy of a parasite. wierwille was a parasite in every way - not just in plagiarism. Is narcissism parasitic? Looked up the definition of Malignant narcissism – it’s a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial behavior, aggression, and sadism. Grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines families and organizations in which they are involved and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate. That def is from Wikipedia – and it had a picture of wierwille next to it – no no – just kidding – but I wish you could see it in the original…ok no more PFAL-flashbacks…but I do think there’s a PTSD for some grads – “it’s like I’m still in the class, man.” Forrest Gump should tell them about Grease Spot Café…

It was you who changed the topic, Mike. If you stayed on topic, you wouldn't drag everyone off into jumping on you. You have no idea what people are doing, but rest assured, offering "God's Word" PFAL style probably isn't it. However, there are people here who are offering God's Word in many other ways. "Under-shepherding" and other Way jargon doesn't cut it either. We are to help each other and guide each other in the way of Truth, and that means helping and guiding from the newest Christian to the apparently most mature. Not one of us is perfect, so we all need a little help and guidance at times.

Governments and institutions have the right and moral obligation to mandate the vaccine, just as they do with dozens of other vaccines from smallpox and measles to chickenpox and mumps. The U.S. Supreme Court made it clear more than a century ago that the public interest in mandating vaccines outweighs the individual interest in clinging to misinformation to spread disease.

Yes ! I Googled “do statistics show that the covid vaccine save lives?” and got quite a few hits – the first one quantifies the lives saved and even gives an economic value to it: According to National Institutes of Health study mentioned in an October 2021 of Psychiatric Times: “Covid-19 vaccines have so far reduced the number of fatalities that would have occurred due to the disease by about 140,000. The study researchers examined data from between December 21, 2020, and May 9, 2021, to assess the impact of state-level vaccination campaigns. The investigators compared the amount of time each state took to reach a series of milestones, beginning with 5 doses per 100 adults and escalating to 120 doses per 100 adults. They also calculated the number of vaccine doses per 100 adults at the end of each week. The researchers found that COVID-19 vaccines prevented more than 139,000 deaths during the first 5 months they were available. Although 570,000 Americans died due to COVID-19 through the study period, the researchers’ model projected that there would have been 709,000 deaths without the vaccine. “The researchers found that COVID-19 vaccines prevented more than 139,000 deaths during the first 5 months they were available.” In addition, the investigators estimated that the economic value of saving these lives was between $625 billion and $1.4 trillion. from: Psychiatric Times - how many lives have been saved by Covid-19 vaccinations these links provide other aspects of the vaccines: Myths and Facts about Covid-19 facts USA Today article - American lives saved by Covid-19 vac flawed paper on supposedly covid-19 vaccine deaths * * * * DVD bonus feature: Another question I Googled was “did people question or doubt the smallpox vaccine like they do the covid-19 vaccine?” and found this stuff: "History Does Repeat: Pandemic Vaccine Uproar Is Nothing New… Oct. 14, 2021 -- Even as the fourth wave of COVID-19 cases trends downward, one aspect of the pandemic remains strong: differing opinions on the value of COVID-19 immunization and vaccine mandates across the U.S. Strong feelings around vaccination are nothing new. Claims that link the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine to autism and opposition to measles vaccination that triggered outbreaks in California are recent examples. People who were against smallpox immunizations, for example, ran advertisements, wrote to newspapers, and formed anti-vaccine organizations, as seen in news clippings from the 1860s to the 1950s. In other words, although the furor over vaccines feels like a modern experience, disagreements throughout history reveal many similarities. "There are a lot of parallels -- many of the same exact arguments," says Anna Kirkland, PhD, director of the Institute for Research on Women and Gender at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. In this etching from 1808, vaccine pioneer Edward Jenner, at right in blue, tries to convince vaccination opponents to get the smallpox shot. "Some of the differences now are the stark political alignments by party that we see under COVID, which were there in some ways before but became very prominently organized by party," she says. "Those are only differences of degree, though, because there has long been an anti-government backing of anti-vaccine sentiments." For example, the Anti-Vaccination Society of America was founded in 1879. Its public campaign against mandatory smallpox vaccination used wording about personal freedoms that might sound familiar today: "Liberty cannot be given, it must be taken." The society was part of a larger movement that also questioned the motives behind promotion of the smallpox vaccine. "The anti-vaccination movement questioned the data released by health authorities, and accused politicians, doctors and pharmaceutical companies of conspiring to act on their economic interests rather than health considerations," notes MyHeritage, which maintains an archive of pro- and anti-vaccine news clippings. "For this reason -- and because MyHeritage has access to billions of historical records, including newspaper clippings -- it was natural for us to check the newspaper archives, to try and make sense of today's significant vaccination debate," says Roi Mandel, lead researcher at MyHeritage. Other historians point out that the anti-vaccination movement in the U.S. got its start in the 1850s with the announcement of smallpox vaccine mandates. "Much of that movement was predicated on widespread concern about the safety of smallpox vaccine, as well as a belief that vaccination laws were 'a tyrannical violation of individual liberty,' wrote Joseph B. Domachowske and Manika Suryadevara, both MDs, in a 2013 report in Human Vaccines & Immunotherapeutics. "Unfortunately, the anti-vaccination activism helped bring about a significant decline in immunization rates, resulting in the re-emergence of smallpox just a couple of decades later," they said.” from: WEB MD vaccine opposition not new and don't forget CUNY EDU News - a tale of two pandemics Forbes tales from the vaccine vault T-Bone's disclaimer: I firmly believe Blockbuster's friendly reminder to be kind and rewind is still applicable in this age of digital media and streaming services.