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  1. My official involvement in TWI was brief. My emotional involvement is another story. I was introduced to The Way in late December 1986. It took a lot of persuading, but I finally sat through the class nearly two years later. By then I had sat through dozens of hours of teaching tapes and Way music was part of my regular diet. I even taught a couple of times: Before I took the class! I was not abused in or by The Way. No one hurt me. No one stole my girlfriend or wife. I parted with my money voluntarily. i left because I was loyal to those who were fired en masse in the spring of 1989. Leaving The Way did not affect my worship life one whit. I was of the belief that we who were cast aside were the ones who were truly most loyal to the Word as taught to us by Dr. Wierwille. In the decade that followed, I got married and became a fellowship coordinator at our offshoot in the Bronx. I got divorced and had a crisis of conscience. I tried hard to stay true to Biblical principles no matter who taught them, and to reject non-Biblical principles (again, no matter who taught them). I ceased being loyal to any particular group, defending and challenging various offshoots at various times. I also began attending mainstream churches after I moved to Florida. After my divorce, I discovered this online community of former Way believers. In my naiveté, I guess I must have come off as quite arrogant and inflexible. Honestly, I was not emotionally prepared for the realization that people had such a wide variety of experiences. I think I grew with this site, both in my understanding and in my flexibility, at least when it comes to doctrine. Today I am not a Way believer. I am not a believer in any supernatural religion. I am a humanist: I believe it is incumbent on man to identify and seek to solve the problems we create, so that our progeny can live in a future worth living for. I can work with anyone who has the same belief, whether that belief is driven by an underlying belief similar to mine or by the belief that a Higher Power demands it of us. So be it. I am writing this (and opening this thread) because I wanted to articulate a simple truth: The "members" of this web community are not an ideological monolith. The only thing we have in common appears to be that we sat through some version of a class that The Way called "foundational." Some of us experienced more. Some of us, far less. We are not all here because we were hurt, though some of us were. We are not all here because we are bitter, though some of us are. We are not all here because we hate God or the Word. Some of us love both with all our hearts. Others would no sooner hate God than Godzilla, for all their ability to demonstrate their existence. We are in various states of personal recovery. Honestly, I'm here out of habit. I've been done with this stuff for years. But now and then I am called upon to explain some of the things I wrote when I was young, idealistic, and enthusiastic about my faith. What about the Blue Book review and Actual Errors? The Blue Book Review (look it up) is a sincere effort by a sincere Christian to weed out truth from error in the works of VPW. Actual Errors, while limited in scope and purpose, was apparently QUITE influential despite itself. It was, at its heart, a defense of the class and the collaterals: A defense against an effort to exalt them above the Word we purported to believe. It was never intended to be an attack on PFAL. It was intended to be a recognition of the obvious: That PFAL was not perfect. That discussion died out years and years ago. But not and then it comes back up, and my name is attached to it. So now and then I remind people what it was all about. From the horse's mouth, as it were. Anyway, back to this thread: There is no single "why I left the way" experience. There is no single "why I'm still out" experience. We are individuals. We are here to give a reason for where we are today. Just ask us.
    5 points
  2. I didn't meet John, personally. I do remember rather vividly, though, a teaching of his on grace. He was a pitcher, presumably for his college baseball team. "There I was -- up by a run in the bottom of the ninth. By SOME STRANGE TWIST OF FATE, the bases were loaded with nobody out. I struck out the next two batters with six BLAZING fastballs. At that point, the first baseman told me that with two out, he wouldn't be holding the runner on. Of course, I knew that. After two pitches to the batter, I could see the runner at first with a big lead, so I completely forgot what the first baseman had told me. I wheeled to throw to first, and life went into slow motion. I couldn't throw to first, because the first baseman wasn't there. I couldn't hold on to the ball, because that would be a balk and bring the tying run in. So, I threw it to the RUNNER. Reflexively, he caught it, then dropped it like a hot potato and started running. The umpire called him out for interference. Game over. Grace: being completely in the wrong but coming out smelling like a rose." Rest in peace, John. George
    4 points
  3. John Lynn was certainly dedicated and laser-focused on things that mattered to him. Whether it was biblical research, books that he authored or basketball at Emporia......John wanted everyone within earshot to enter into his world of interests. He was our Emporia Campus Corps Coordinator my last year in-residence and would turn our noon lunchtime into an hour of teaching. Other times, he had stories to make us laugh. I agree with those who suggest keeping this as a memorial thread. Critiquing someone's life's choices publicly upon death is what twi-leadership would do.... especially when way corps died. It was grating and disturbing, not comforting and supporting. This is a time to comfort and eulogize a man who was deeply dedicated and passionate about life. May the God of all Comfort bless the Lynn family and loved ones in their sorrow.
    4 points
  4. A. A complicated man with a complicated legacy. In many ways, the embodiment of my post-TWI determination not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. He truly believed, as many of us once did, that we were privileged with something extraordinary but imperfect, and he dedicated his life to improving it. Along the way he embraced and promoted some indefensible stuff, and he defended it with a stubborn passion that would be admirable in the service of a more worthy cause. When he met me, I felt broken. He did his best to heal my heart, to restore the sense of spiritual family I lost at a time of personal crisis. He refused to judge me or condemn me. I admire his dedication. As it gave way to stubbornness... let his legacy be a warning.
    4 points
  5. We didn't see eye to eye. I wish his family well. I did like his sense of humor. And he led the charge against the way. Opened the eyes of many.
    4 points
  6. So glad for all of the previous insights!!! Was thinking this a.m. that in '74 I took PFull-of- class at a family camp in NY, then Renewed mind class camp, and a week later took CF&S at an Ohio camp. (The Wow's in southern VA had not signed up anyone else but myself and a co-worker who I talked in to accompanying me to the P-fil camp that year.) Thus, I was hood-winked into plenty of error and idolizings, along with some good Bible, sure. But being clobbered over the head and fire-hosed with vpw's doctrinal slants, and being introduced to such nit-pickings as how many crosses or cock crows there were (2 Timothy 2:16- avoid pointless discussions)... This was soon followed with more grooming in CF&S and as I wrote in a personal journal- "SO, there i was hooked in... and two weeks later, i was being further groomed as one of the young women who would be privileged to be raped by your young bucks." Am still in therapy and several support groups for various life traumas, and I WILL heal from this!! (Just decided to join a local church which is sooooo much safer, respectful, doctrinally diverse, truly loving, etc etc etc. Onward! And thank you again GSC-ers for the support, insights, and Truth!!!
    4 points
  7. Good morning, GreaseSpotters! This is Charlene chiming in thank Rocky for posting this link to what is in fact my FINAL public talk. For what I say about that: Visit: Charlene's Last Public Cult Talk | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com) I'm here also to thank Pawtucket for risking so much, giving so much, putting up with so much as he's hosted this venue for so many years. Aren't we lucky we can meet here to share our stories, get info, and offer each other support! Cheers to you, brave ones!
    4 points
  8. I like to think I wouldn't have gotten involved, either. Truth is, though, it was 50 years ago. I'm not the same person now that I was then. Don't beat yourself up over decisions you made so long ago.
    4 points
  9. vpw was determined to make a profit on everything twi- related. If it cost something, he'd try to get it free, or try to get it on the cheap if that was impossible. When he filmed the pfal class, he "bought" the desk for the set, then returned it for a refund, lying and claiming something was wrong to get a refund. Run a class? It's always at someone's home, so we pay no rent, and twi peons supply all refreshments out-of-pocket. All books were charged full retail despite having been printed and bound in-house, all audio tapes were made of a truly inferior quality, a level you couldn't buy in retail stores. Its mission program- wow- was run at a profit- the wow had to pay a fee to go out, and no funds were released to house them or otherwise run the program. Its leadership program- the corps- was run at a profit- with each student charged lots of money to participate, with other people chipping in the rest. In all other organizations, the group carries part or all of the expenses for such programs. On top of that, the corps WORKED. They were charged money, were housed in tiny "residences" and paid for the privilege of working for free. If there IS a God, vpw will have to account for all of that.
    4 points
  10. VPW said it. That settles it. I don't believe it.
    4 points
  11. According to someone I trust for reliable information......twi is starting to reach out and solicit/summon ex-corps grads to come back. Apparently, there is a growing demand for Limb coordinators. Huge swaths of states do NOT have adequate or no leadership. Seems that few are willing to take on the task and challenge of running a state. What could possibly be the reasons? A non-salary position......and confrontation from the bod-leadership every week? The grueling paperwork and reporting back to distant overlords? Enduring a no-upside situation.....and neglecting wife/kids in the process? Being micro-managed by hypocritic Pharisees? At the smallest mistake, having your name sullied thru the mud at corps meetings? If you think about quitting.....you will be on the blunt end of character assassination? Also, it was said that the board of directors is implementing some of Bob Moneyhands' suggestions from that letter. Yes, Bob (and others) did suggest that the no-debt policy should be tossed. Yes, Bob (and others) did suggest that corps who were wronged should be invited back. Are they going to start up a "research team" again? I'm positive that twi knows who I am......and has photocopied hundreds of my GSC threads. I will not be getting a phone call......thankfully. It wouldn't matter if they apologized for Martindale's and Lally's 1998 Character Assassination on my life and reputation. They publically lied about us to keep us from exposing the sullied underbelly of Martindale's sexual predation and twi's whitewashing this information. Rosalie knew. They all knew. No matter.........I ain't going back. Never. Ever.
    3 points
  12. I hate to be the one to break it to you, Mike, but..... you overrate your significance on this board. Things don't revolve around you, nor do we wish you'd suddenly start posting again when you take a break. This SHOULD be comforting- as in, there's less pressure to perform, but more likely, it's LESS comforting for someone who's still searching for converts to his belief system. BTW, being on the spectrum would remove a lot of the stigma of your refusal to converse in a civil manner like everyone else, since you might be unable to see the difference. That wouldn't be an "attack", it would partly excuse you for previous incidents.
    3 points
  13. Why I Wrote My Story -- Insanity on Steroids Five years ago, I put in writing here at GSC my experiences from those last ten years with The Way International. The reasons why I wrote my story were.....1) to send a warning to all those involved in twi and others considering taking classes from this cult, 2) an attempt to differentiate between Scripture-based Christians and twi's lockstep loyalty of servitude, and 3) to expose twi's incremental steps to overthrow one's will and consent. There are no fences with concertina wire to hold them prisoners, but there are very-real doctrines of fear and deception interlocking to prevent escape. Insanity on Steroids The strongholds of twi's prison are constantly praised and enforced by 1) Twi's MOG-doctrine and 2) the pfal class. In twi-mythology, wierwille was "the man of God" (to the whole world) who was called to teach the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. Secondly, the pfal class contained the essence of "the Word" that students were to stand on and never allow anyone to talk them out of it. Both elements, like rebar and concrete......keep twi's foundation "solid." No twi-imprisonment would be possible without the way corps.......like guards and walls, to keep the inmates from escaping into nearby communities, jobs/careers and family. Wierwille devised the corps program knowing that his (stolen) pfal class was not enough to keep people involved.....enforcers would be needed to keep them marching forward. Why was Martindale chosen as the second President of The Way International? What did wierwille say was the reason for choosing him? I have often cited that wiewille's corps leaders were abandoning him as early as 1978. Thus, he began to write "personal" corps letters in an attempt to strengthen that corps household bond. It didn't work. More and more corps were waking up to the fact that this "lifetime of Christian service" was in reality a life of twi-servitude. And, underneath the surface.....many corps were making plans of their own. When wierwille died in 1985, the full measure of that seething pot came to a boil. Let the splintering begin. Martindale was chosen to lead twi, according to wierwille.....because he ALWAYS OBEYED. Full stop. Period. Wierwille gave no other explanation......and THAT should have sent chills down our spines in 1981. According to vpw, martindale wouldn't ask how high he was to jump, he just jumped. Always. That was the criteria for being chosen as the cult's ..... twi's next president. · Geer took measures to undermine and sabotage twi's trustees. · Martindale seemed to actually believe he was the new "man of God." · Don and Howard wanted to keep the trains (and money) rolling in. · Rosalie (and Donna) were cunningly planning a coup. · John Lynn and others saw opportunities to start splinter groups. With Geer's paper, The Passing of a Patriarch, it is quite easy to see the bold strokes of a power-grab. Wierwille's death caused a flurry of activity and now, Martindale's peers were not going to accept his leadership as Chief Bottle Washer. Tumultuous times ensued and an euphemism "the fog years" was inserted to describe those ugly, back-stabbing years. No matter which leader or ex-leader you chose to associate with......they ALL had the baggage of cult-doctrine. Corps leaders, all of them, had gone thru an indoctrination program. Perhaps, the best choice would have been to keep one's distance for at least 10 years and see where the chips fall. I did not make that smart choice. I chose to stay involved with twi......and hence, those 10 years seeing Insanity on Steroids. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. With hindsight 20/20.....all of us here at GSC know now each choice involving Corps Leadership or Ex-Corps Leadership was fraught with error. Some of us chose to stand with martindale. Some chose geer. Some chose lynn. Some went back to a local church. Some chose to be left alone (smart choice). Thankfully, I only stayed until 1998. Other corps, and many corps coordinators (Moynihans, Forts, Horneys, Magnellis)......stayed until 2016/2017. Another 18 years being micro-managed by Rosalie Fox Rivenbark!!! And, one of the things that I find so amazing is that NOT ONE OF THESE CORPS LEADERS (cough, cough) have come clean. They STILL actively follow the path of wierwille-doctrine giving (subtle) allegiance to wierwille and his plagiarized teachings. With that in mind.....it makes it all the more important that our stories are out there!!! Splinter leaders are no different that their mother-cult. Same indoctrination path to idolatry. · How many have heard our warnings and changed course? · Lives, marriages, families, and careers have gained stronger footing. · Body blows have been given to twi and splinter groups. · Possibly, hundreds of thousands abs (millions?) have alluded twi's grasp. · Even 100s of indoctrinated corps have bailed in the past 15 years. · GreaseSpot Cafe continues to ROCK.....woohoo!!! Five years later, all the aspects of my life are better. Actually, pretty damn good (knock on wood). My critical thinking skills have skyrocketed and I spot manipulation and bullschit a mile away. I can't imagine what my life would be like had I not taken that challenging LEAP TO FREEDOM. Nor, can I imagine the hurt, guilt, and limitations that it would have imposed on our kids. Thank God for the scales falling from my eyes. Cults herd people into a chasm of dependency......mentally, physically, socially, and financially. They prey on your weakness and close the gates to your escape. Sure, you're around other "like-minded" sheep/cattle.....but are you being prepared for the slaughterhouses? Cults thrive on dependency and silence. Subjugating and institutionalizing people are their hallmarks of oppression. Those corps leaders who remain silent are complicit in the evil. So, keep telling your stories. .
    3 points
  14. Nearly 7 out of 10 Americans have at least one dose. Nearly 6 out of 10 are fully vaccinated. Boosters are available for certain groups but not everyone at this time. Children 5 - 11 can be vaccinated now at the schools around here. Most people are getting vaccinated. Apparently there is controversy about the difference between treating worms and a viral disease. Made more controversial by the complete lack of clarity as to why this is a controversy.
    3 points
  15. Going for my booster jab tomorrow. Yes, I believe God to keep me safe - and to keep others safe. I believe I have a great natural immune system, to which loads of fresh fruit and veg, exercise, and a healthy lifestyle contribute. I also believe God gave me the common sense to take reasonable precautions. I continue to wear a mask in shops, etc, and gel my hands wherever possible (even though these actions are no longer legally required) - and (though I'm needle-phobic), I get necessary inoculations. No way am I giving this virus to any of the many very elderly people that I know. (Don't want it myself, either.)
    3 points
  16. This mRNA technology sounds like it's going to open the door to many new solutions, so that's fascinating. However, joining a cult like The Way is like a type of addiction. There is no vaccine except education. Social distancing might help since it can reduce contact with potential recruiters. The internet however, is still a place where one could be indoctrinated. One could practice social media distancing as well.
    3 points
  17. I'm going briefly off-topic here to alert readers that the Covid information posted above is glaringly incorrect and, quite frankly, dangerous. Okay, back to the topic at hand.
    3 points
  18. Not for a moment do I think it's fair game to go after grieving family members.
    3 points
  19. Ah, but a DIFFERENT thread is a memorial. I was going to leave that thread completely alone. I had no PERSONAL dealings with JAL, and thus no memories to share. I also wasn't going to make a new thread JUST to call out dangerous teachings. However, since this one was started, I consider it fair game. :) It's one thing to go out of your way to do a character-assassination on someone. Somebody leaves twi, and immediately the spin doctors grab the microphone and begin a smear campaign with vague connections to reality. The person was a model Christian up until the moment before they left twi, NOW they're scum! It's another to point out that someone-who made himself a PUBLIC FIGURE and worked hard to do so- has disseminated dangerous misinformation to the public. For this post, Í'm going to skip the dangerous "Momentus" push he did where people were hurt, and the dangerous "personal prophecy" movement that ruined lives and wrecked marriages. I'm JUST going to go by the video that was linked, and what he said about the global pandemic, during its height. Only going by this one video.... A) He said masks are useless against COVID. That's false. That was known `100 years ago with the "Spanish Flu" and it's true now as well. He said all the authorities speaking up were wrong and that if you listened to the "right sources", you'd know that. No mention of WHO those right sources were, can't fact-check if he's correct, of course. At that level, he's floating a rumor. B) He said COVID was no worse than a flu. Outside the US, this isn't a political thing in many countries- it's acknowledged this is a worldwide killer. Again, no sources for his outrageous claim. C) Claim the CDC said many of the cases (he said "MOST") of the cases were due to comorbidities, so that meant that COVID wasn't to blame there. That shows an ignorance of basic epidemiology. With an "opportunistic infection", something occupies and wears down the immune system, and something else- which normally wouldn't be dangerous- gets in and does a lot of harm or kills someone. So, if there was no COVID, the "co-morbidity" would not have been a significant issue. So, his own words there, for those with a layman's grasp of medicine, show he doesn't understand what he's passing along. He may believe it, but that doesn't make it true, and it doesn't make it harmless. D) He said it's worse to wear the masks than to risk catching COVID. E) He said the isolation protocols have been keeping people from attending church. He hasn't gotten around that much. Virtual church-going got REALLY popular during 2020. F) He said "most" vaccines- with COVID the context- are "HARMFUL", No medical authority has embraced this, and they keep refuting this. All the medical experts rushed out to get vaccinated as soon as was possible. In fact, many people who got on the media and claimed there may have been problems with the vaccines were all quick to get vaccinated. Again, no source, just another rumor he floated. G) He said the US death rate for COVID was 0.0 something death rate. He said he doesn't "worry about it at all", and repeated that the masks were useless, and tells nurses not to bother with them. He mentioned "the true science" with no mention of where one can look it up. So, hidden (OCCULTED) knowledge where he refuses to cite his sources. All of that, if followed, runs between "highly-suspect" (hidden sources) and potentially fatal (skipping the vaccines.) In a lot of the world, this isn't about politics, it's about PUBLIC HEALTH and bipartisan support for measures were common. In countries where this was a political football, the body counts for COVID shot up (like Brazil.) Comedian Gabriel Iglesias is in poor health. He's morbidly obese, has diabetes, and other health problems. He caught the Delta variant of COVID, and took 1 day of bed-rest. He was fine afterwards- because he got BOTH vaccination doses. If one follows JAL's counsel on COVID, one runs the risk of getting the disease, and possibly dying, or possibly passing it along to other family members and friends. Places where vaccination has been up are often maintaining social distancing and mask-wearing, and otherwise are returning to normal- as much as one can while doing both. The places where the highest rates of people getting COVID and dying of COVID correlate directly to places where people remain unvaccinnated. That's a problem for 3rd world countries that can't get vaccines, and that's a problem in the US in counties where people say their personal freedoms are being infringed upon. I agree with what Arnold Schwarzenegger said on this. Your personal freedoms have responsibilities. JAL had the courage of his convictions, and practiced what he preached- which, apparently, led directly to his death. At least he was CONSISTENT. If this post ends up getting chopped up by staff, I'm sorry. I tried to stick to the medical facts and as clear of politics as I could manage.
    3 points
  20. I never knew John personally, but I know quite a few people here did. To them and to his family and friends I offer my condolences.
    3 points
  21. Thanks for your words Raf. Im a bit emotional this morning after hearing the news and (for once...lol) really couldn't string the words together in an apporpriate manner to express what you said. I really liked him on a personal level but I just couln't follow him into another ministry when asked. I wish I could have done more for him on a personal level but stubbornness is a key word here. I respected him and my heart goes out to his loved ones.
    3 points
  22. Make sure you take your Vitamin D. (Most people have a deficiency due to lack of adequate exposure to sunlight). It maintains your immune system. There is an abundance of scientific data detailing its importance. A doctor can run a blood test and make recommendations on proper dosage.
    3 points
  23. That whole "Great Principle" thing made no sense. God can't communicate except to what he is, i.e. spirit? But somehow that spirit that he "created in you" can communicate to your mind?
    3 points
  24. Oh gosh, I will also add that I do not believe I was / others were totally a victim of circumstances (unless they were children; I experienced traumas thruout my childhood that did make me more vulnerable to adulthood abuses, but-)- to a degree, I put myself in the position of being groomed, of taking unwise risks, etc, as other victims have. Thank goodness we accept what responsibility is rightly ours so we can heal, recover, gain boundaries, warn others, and move on.
    3 points
  25. Well, am recently back from the CFFM 25th Anniversary "Reunion" weekend in Tipp City OH. A Very Wonderful Time for the most part, especially (for me) hanging out Saturday night singing lots of the old songs together, a healing time of joy and time traveling back to the GOD-blessed inspirational "I belong here" times, which a part of me still cherishes apparently. So there we were in the hotel lobby, some folks older and wiser most likely, but still enjoying "Daddy's Arms", "Eagle Inside", ETC together. Why not?? I just wept afterwards... Cleansing, delivering, connecting to the past with a new more whole me... Validating GOD'S good moving and Jesus' excellent working I think, in spite of EVERYTHING else that began to unfold later. (I am very loosely connected to CFF; attend some weekend conferences in OH, and went to annual Family Camps in NH until Covid; enjoy teachings on their website occasionally.) I am specifically writing about a few other things too- Tonya Schroyer, love her to death!, handled The Way several times briefly- shared again about being full of condemnation etc when she finally got out, but also said "We were taught well". And "I had a good beneficial time in the Way, I know some ppl didn't"... But let's remember that his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be." Then later four folks were honored with ordination among them Sarah Wierwille Guigou, and she spoke: "I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)." I stopped to think how the youngest daughter of vpw would feel, what she may have experienced hate-mail-wise, how she was kept from visiting her mother, or attending her funeral I believe. HOWEVER, having learned about the many powerful sexual abusers getting away with all of the cover ups, the knee jerk reactions of victim blaming and doubting, the deep suffering of the victims on various fronts and levels, and the general IGNORANCE of people re: trauma and PTSD, I would have worded my statement a little differently if I were Sarah.- I would have added "I know my father hurt and abused many people, and some of them are still suffering from the traumas they experienced in the Way. For this I am deeply sorry, and if there is anything I can do to help with their healing, I am available. Victims need to be heard, and their experiences validated." The angry hurting side of me wants to help her add more, if I may- "My father was a lying, cheating, f____ing B_ST_RD. He abandoned his family. He betrayed my mother over and over. Yes his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be", but that was mostly a sanctimonious, hypocritical, self-pitying, facade. I pray for God to have mercy on his soul, and trust that He will bring justice for every single victim of my father's lust and power abuses. Amen." Thank you again for this safe place to process and voice these things!! Maybe I should connect with someone at CFF about this so that I am not just venting here without actually addressing things. But I know blasting ppl doesn't work... Asking Qs is probably the way to get ppl thinking but not sure if that is really needed for myself or them... I have already written to Kevin Guigou and he was kind, so maybe that is enough for now. AND I talked with Sarah as well two years ago without laying any specific blame on vp, but therapeutic counseling is not her forte, which is fine. To God be the Glory, great things He is doing, and Lord I/we have an eagle inside!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God bless!
    3 points
  26. Thinking back at some of the places I worked, fear was used a lot. Like fear of getting fired or doing something the wrong way, or somehow shamed. TWI went further than that, trying to get deep in your mind and life and be afraid of every thought.
    3 points
  27. Funny he said that in the class but promoted fear through the way tree, turning the tree upside down and killing the leaves. As Bolshevik said somewhere back a few posts, fear was institutionalized. The no fear thing was all about getting you through the 12th session anyway. After that you were fair game.
    3 points
  28. So the idea is that if specific things come together than things happen. And these things that contribute to the outcome, and the outcome itself, are, or can be known. Some kind of scientific or philosophical formula that is supposed to work. Here this idea is being applied to the human mind. This is the premise of PFAL. And this is why it fails. The defining of free will, and emphasis, is overstated for one. That you can present ideas, factors, thoughts, scripture, truth, lies or other things and get a specific outcome every time. Oh! but wait! if the outcome does not happen than you must not be believing, or FREE WILLING to believe one or more of these ingredients. Like some kind of cookbook. God was left out of the class, and taken over by things that we are supposed to do and believe. Somehow the message of not by my own works is lost.
    3 points
  29. Back to process a little more with you kind smart supportive ppl. The deep meaningful attachments to past way leaders are the toughest I find, to handle. I know it is like family members that one is contemplating breaking contact with (to varying degrees) due to toxic behaviors, etc. E.g. the minister, G.E., a Very Good Friend, who married my (now ex-)h and me, and was honored and excited b/c he had just been put on full time staff as our Branch was growing; we were his first of three couples to marry that spring; G.E. then dedicated both of our children in the hospital after difficult deliveries; and he virtually gave his window cleaning business to my h. ALL of the weddings, ALL of the showers, ALL of the baby dedications, ALL of the meetings, ETC ETC ETC in our closely-knit fellowship that our branch coordinators supported... Then came the Loyalty Oath; agreeing with G.E. and becoming Geer-ites; being marked and avoided by 1/2 of those dear friends... ALL of the following havoc- divorce, trauma with the kids, etc etc. Now thanks in large part to wonderful posters here at GSC, I am finally and fully identifying vpw's terrible abuses, wrong doctrine, and my naivete/misplaced trust, and how the demise of the way ministry was inevitable. I just became a full partner (member) in a local church b/c it is much safer, open, and more soundly based than the way EVER was. B/c of the PTSD I still have from the unsafe attachings, it is all part of the recovery process, apparently, to evaluate how much to interact w/ old way friends when the opportunity still pops up from time to time. FB is a great way to say Hi, like things, restore some of the connections from a distance. Guess I will still play it Very Safe, and carefully pick and choose what happens IRL; and be ready to exit if I trigger from anxiety (flight), or want to explode (fight) if someone starts defending vp, e.g. Oh BOY! The Best Part about this Whole Process has been learning about how my Father, my Comforter, and my Jesus are fully functioning as Safe Present Nurturing Guiding places/beings to Fully Attach to and Trust In!! Just sayin' for anyone who has taken this spiritual path... THANKS MUCH for listening!! Best to all here!! Onward!!
    3 points
  30. Hello. If you want to socialize, we have game threads still going in the Games forum, and you are still welcome to join. "From 2002-2008 I was an advocate here that we return to PFAL to see how much we missed the first time(s), and to see how much we forgot or drifted from. I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times." You also outright contradicted the Orange Book in a few major issues- like vpw claiming we could get to the originals and how we could do that, and you saying we could NOT, and vpw saying something like 90% of Scripture means just what it says, and you saying the meanings are hidden, and vpw saying the class (book, once edited) was a class of KEYS and was to UNDERSTAND Genesis to Revelation but not to replace them, and you said it DID replace Genesis to Revelation. You said a lot of things, and usually switched to vague, uninformative wordings in order to obscure either a lack of substance or outright contradicting pfal while explaining pfal. Most of us here were around to see all of that, but a few new people may have missed it. For those people, I'd like to add that I in no way exaggerated what he said nor misrepresented it. Most people who have passed through these metaphorical doors are convinced that the problems were due to vpw violating the Bible and fair moral and legal codes while claiming he was our spiritual leader, and teaching his disciples to be two-fold the child of hell that he was- although, frankly, few matched in in that respect. Most actually cared about people, and only a tiny handful were that sociopathic or that fanatical to match him. You reluctantly agreed he wasn't perfect, but credited that to him being "OVERgifted" probably due to him being "born with an overabundance of brains and brawn" and "where he walked, the earth shook." (Seriously, those were his words, not mine.) You said the keys to getting it right were the hidden keys to pfal you knew and none of us did, and that the failure to get it right wasn't due primarily to pfal being a flawed product. "In those years I was only able to get a very small few of the GreaseSpotters to view things this way. The few of us came back to PFAL, this first wave of us, found it to be better than when we originally enjoyed it. " There were fewer people in your new group than in the "Heavens Gate" comet watchers, or so many other groups convinced they were there primarily due to some secret they know. The US is loaded with people who think they know "the secret" to what's really going on. Thousands of people believe that. The great obscurity of your product, and the requirement that one have fond, nostalgic twi memories seriously limits the target audience of the public. " I predicted back here at GreaseSpot then that I was only dealing with the "First Wave" of those returning to PFAL. " Nostalgia arrives in waves with decades. That's true regardless of content. And calling a handful of people a "first wave" shows a disregard for the term "wave." [To be followed with claims he did not, then later claims he was metaphorical in some way and that I failed to understand him, then later claims it was deliberate so someone could "spring his trap." Some of these posts follow VERY predictable patterns- like Mike returning after being refuted completely and claiming that his last visit showed him coming up with answers to everything and coming off unscathed.] "About 2 or 3 years ago I started seeing lots of Facebook Groups being started by lots of pro-PFAL people, and many comments by other pro-PFAL people. " Defining "pro-pfal" can change who is meant by a lot. By some definitions, that would include ME. Also, "many" is a remarkably vague term. "The number of Facebook Groups" is a lot like when twi defined a 5-person graduating class ENTIRELY by which percentage was going on to do what- 20% to do this, 20% to do that, which was 1 person each time. Facebook groups can be of a single person and a tiny, occasional audience. They also OVERLAP a lot- so 10 Facebook groups on this probably include 80% overlap- or more- of their audiences. "Every now and then a nay-sayer chimes in, but it's obvious how ineffective they are." Isn't it amazing how ineffective a naysayer can be, when they show up at a venue with a purpose to which they are diametrically opposed? ""After 35+ years now, lots of people are done comparing the flurry of clone classes that cropped up after 1986, and have found they fall way short of the original." That's not what they themselves are saying- that's your opinion of what they are doing. Their own answers would be quite different, and NOT rely on vpw, pfal, or anything involving a farm outside New Knoxville, in most cases. BTW, out of the supposed 100,000 people who took pfal, there are perhaps a few HUNDRED, at most, who are doing the splinter thing, with another few hundred if you include twi and SOWERS and so on, the groups with the authoritarian leaders and so on. In nearly every case, the audiences are all aging out- and in the other, the soil doesn't have depth. "
    3 points
  31. Am I the only one who thinks Bullinger's Figures of Speech sound a WHOLE LOT like Harry Potter spells? Condescensio! Hypocatastasis! Asyndeton! Polysyndeton! Expecto-Runaroundem!
    3 points
  32. Hello Mike. I've kinda missed you round here. Could always rely on you to make a point that would stir up Cafe denizens. Was wondering what had happened to you. You went away to study PFAL more deeply, I think. Well, no desire from me to study PFAL. Oh, I wish you could read it in the original! Maybe try deep-reading the two principal books that VPW plagiarised? I doubt TWI is really "moving back to the original PFAL class." Far too dated.
    3 points
  33. I recently rediscovered this site and have spent hours and hours reading your posts and your stories. Despite how many years have gone by since you wrote them and since I have been out of twi, I have been moved to tears, outrage, gratitude and sometimes laughter. Although we may not know each other personally, I feel a profound connection with you from our shared experience in twi. Thank you so much for keeping this site going all this time. My brief history with twi: started attending twig in 1973 Fairfax, CA and first took PFAL at a live class (!) at Shaver Lake, CA that summer. I was 17. Took the Intermediate class, went Word Over CA, then Fellow Laborers, College WOW 75-76, 2 years "free" WOW ( NJ 76-77 and MA 77-78.) Was accepted to the 10th Corps, but did not enter. Returned to CA (San Gabriel Valley), took the Advanced class, married another WOW vet, coordinated a twig for several years, had 2 kids, finally had enough of increasing legalism, hard-heartedness, and arrogance from "leadership" and we ended our ties to twi around 1990. As was the case with so many of us, I had stayed in partly from fear of being "possessed" if we "tripped out." I did battle depression for quite a while after we left because we had lost our friends and social network and I didn't want to be "unequally yoked" with "unbelievers" or find a church, since I still believed churches were "whited sepulchres. " Sigh. I offer huge thanks to you all who have posted actual letters and documents from back in the day, particularly the infamous Passing of the Patriarch letter. All I knew about Chris Geer besides that he was at Gartmore then was that Something Big had happened which most of the rank and file were not privy to. I heard snippets of gossip ( "We're not supposed to talk about this, but I heard...") and observed jockeying for position amongst The Bigs, but had no real information. Some time after this, The Way Bookstore published one of their little booklets entitled "The Passing of the Patriarch" which I now know was so heavily redacted it bears no resemblance to his actual letter. The letter I read for the first time a couple months ago, 33 years after it was written. I briefly wondered if releasing that letter to the entire "ministry" at that time might have ushered in what some would call a cleansing revival. Yeah, probably not. "Godly sorrow leading to repentance" was not in our corporate repertoire. Not that the whiny, self-serving drivel I read in that letter would have inspired everyone to get it together. Earlier today I was telling my older son (who will be 36 next month) about some of the things I read in the GSC and got choked up and teary. Because my twi days were so long ago, I was surprised by this, but then I remembered how much of my heart and soul, time, effort, and money I gave to twi for so many years. I now sometimes wonder if there is a God, yet here I was crying that God's people had been so ill used and hurt by people who claimed to be men of God. The last time I took the Advanced class was in the summer of 1984 on the campus of San Diego State University. We stayed in dorm rooms. My roomie and I would make jokes about about certain Way Corps people such as "So and So must have forgotten their AC "retemory" that 'he who shall be greatest among you shall be servant of all'"and similar mockery. Mind you, I believed that many WC were genuinely trying to walk with God and serve the Body of Christ, but there were many more who behaved as though they walked on water and we worker bees should be grateful to breathe the same air and receive their wisdom. Our joking was a way to cope with their attitude. I have regretted not lovingly confronting b.s. when I saw it rather than putting up with it, but I don ' t know that even if most of the "believers" had done so, it would have made much difference. The house that was twi was built on sand and the storm causing its collapse was beginning in fury. That the organization still exists is a wonder to me. So again, thank you so much and heart hugs to you all.
    3 points
  34. Their retirement accounts, of course!
    3 points
  35. One of the most liberating things when I left TWI was the realization the Sh1t Happens.
    3 points
  36. Seldom do I venture over into the Memoriam Thread......but I did today and saw that DMiller had passed away. Age 68 (too young). And further, there was only 1 reply to this announcement....to a guy who'd posted on this site 12,421 times. ~~~~~~~~~ So, in light of that.....I just wanted to say.... Thank you, posters..... for sharing your stories, interests and viewpoints here at GreaseSpot. Those who posted years ago, thank you!! Sometimes, I venture back into pages 140-185 to re-read some of those fascinating threads and debates. Certain posters that I knew in person.... I found/find it interesting to learn things from their area and viewpoint. What happened? Why people stayed? Why people left? Why people went back.....then left again? As some posters have shared thru the years......we view those that leave GSC as "success stories." This is a place of support, help, concern and forgiveness. Some accuse us of bitterness for confronting wierwille's twi with their deception, fraud and sins.....but, in truth, it is WE who are standing firm on truth, values and dignity. But for twi-leadership, past and present, that extended forgiveness must first be accompanied with godly sorrow to repentance....before forgiveness grants one a refreshing confidence (II Cor. 7:8-16). So, until Paw wants to close shop here or pass the responsibilities onto someone else.....looks like the 'Spot will continue to support the weary of heart. So, faithful posters.....thanks!! If I drop off the radar and you read my obituary in the near future (hopefully, years from now)......I just wanted to cover my thanksgiving bases and let you know I appreciate all your support. And, if it's not too much trouble.....maybe a few of you guys could get a quartet together and sing at my funeral. Thanks. .
    2 points
  37. There's always been a disconnect between the REALITY of twi and the CLAIMS of twi. IIRC, it was ROA 77 (but it could have been later) when vpw said they were going to take a list of all the verses that said that Jesus is the Son of God, and nail them to the doors of the local churches that afternoon (Sunday, at the close.) What happened? vpw went to each church door, without a list of any kind. He left a sign- "Jesus Christ-not God, never was, never will be!" and an autographed copy of "Jesus Christ is Not God." If there was any hope that discussion MIGHT have been sparked by the list, absolutely none was sparked by the antagonistic sign, and the autographed copy of the book was just ego-massage. None of that accomplished anything other than making vpw feel important.
    2 points
  38. twi hopes to have ambassadors in the 12 countries they have active way corps. they have a long history of "believing" for certain large numbers in one program or another. i was always careful to ignore the "believing" numbers they published beforehand in the way magazine, and look at the actual numbers after an event (they didn't often put actual numbers in, but you could guess by looking at group photos). No doubt a few corps pad the numbers in some way when they pass them uphill. "Believing" often means living in fairy land. twi still has an inflated self image, still following vpw's narcissistic example they seem to be heavily promoting gunnison as a destination, mostly via various "camps." it keeps money flowing in I expect the "Christian music" at the young rock will be as regimented and programmed as anything way productions does. it seems to me everybody at twi dresses, walks and talks alike, in suits and dresses. kind of like the Agents in suits in the matrix
    2 points
  39. Far more people have been vaccinated than have had Covid. I can walk down the street and point to houses where Covid killed someone. I cannot walk down the street and point to houses where the vaccine killed someone.
    2 points
  40. Hey, speaking of the whole country of India, did you see the one where the whole country of India said "hey, stop using Ivermectin to treat COVID: It doesn't work. The Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) and the National Task Force on Covid-19 have dropped the use of Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) drugs from their revised guidelines for the treatment of the infection. The decision was taken after experts found that these drugs have little to no effect on Covid-related mortality or clinical recovery of the patient. Studies also found there was no clarity on mortality benefit, no effect on length of hospital stay and recovery in case of Ivermectin. Recommending that Ivermectin be dropped from the clinical guidance, experts cited 13 systematic reviews of which “7/13 showed mortality benefit, 4/13 no mortality benefit, 2/13 inconclusive/unclear.” https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-outbreak/story/why-hcq-ivermectin-dropped-india-covid-treatment-protocol-1857306-2021-09-26 https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/2021/09/25/india-de-approves-hydroxycholoquine-and-ivermectin
    2 points
  41. You mean, like scientists working their God-given mental abilities devising effective vaccines?
    2 points
  42. Allan, you are not skeptical for a plethora of reasons. You are skeptical for a plethora of excuses, the overwhelming majority of them stupid. Your reasoning is unintelligent. I'm not saying YOU are. Your REASONING is faulty beyond repair. "If the vaccine works, why the mandates?" Jesus, man, because dozens of vaccines are mandated for all sorts of reasons, and it has been so since George Washington MANDATED the smallpox vaccine during the Revolutionary War. Commie socialist unAmerican freedom hater that he was. "Now, I'm not saying people should be forced to play in traffic. But I just wish people would reciprocate and not tell me I can't play in traffic." Dude, they're not equivalent positions! I hope they "force" this vaccine on everyone the same way they did smallpox and chicken pox and measles and mumps and rhubella and polio and all sorts of other diseases we stopped hearing about until uneducated anti-vaxxers decided to give then new life by manufacturing fake links to unrelated conditions. Vaccines work. They save lives. They allowed us to move back toward normalcy. And the only reason they were not as effective in the US as they could have been is too many people refused to take them because they followed the politically driven advice of demagogues who either took the vaccine or didn't AND DIED OF COVID. These people wanted herd immunity, but you don't get herd immunity by thinning the herd. You get it through vaccinations, but even then only if most people participate. So if you don't want to be criticized for refusing to take the vaccine, TOO BAD. You're following stupid advice and if you were an isolated case that would be one thing, but then you're using platforms to spread the misinformation on which you've acted, which is providing other people with the stupid advice you're following and making it harder to bring this pandemic under control. Get the F8ing shot already.
    2 points
  43. I dont care what you do, on a certain level. On another I care a lot. Either way I’d prefer to make my own decisions. If I get to, so do you. So when I’m King Dog of the Universe and running things we’ll get along great. Ive managed to live as I see fit without having any issues. The week California closed down last year I drove an RV for 10 hours on a major freeway, got gas, food, used rest rooms, and visited family for a week in another city in another county. No problems at all. I slipped the stupid little mask on when I was in public places gassing up, and sanitized as I went. Easy. 99% of the trip I didn’t wear a mask but in those few situations where I knew someone would have a shit fit if I didn’t I did. The whole thing is such a minor concern to me, either way, I refuse to get in a twist, I just try to do the sensible thing snd get on with what I’m really trying to do.
    2 points
  44. So in the context of this thread i can’t forget the words of Dorothy Wierwille at her husbands funeral. ”He was a mean man”
    2 points
  45. Not unexpected. He hung on for a long time with the cancer. Really foolish of him, knowing he was immuno-suppressed, to not get a vaccine or wear masks. I'd liked him when I first got involved in TWI. He got weird later, though. Always sad when someone you know dies.
    2 points
  46. I can only say that I led a WOW team, we set goals at the beginning (I had to scale back on what some of my team wanted, they were so enthusiastic) we worked really hard and in fact I drove the team hard. Because in Corps training I had myself been driven really hard and had somehow lost my kindness and compassion. We had some good times, very good times, during the WoW year; we ran a couple of classes, and a couple of lads to whom we'd witnessed went out WOW the following year. Some amazing things, miraculous things, happened at various times. As a WoW family, we were successful. The other family in the team, led by my Corps bro, totally unsuccessful. But I made it unnecessarily hard for some in particular of my family, despite that I dearly loved them. I knowingly set a wrong example on many occasions (even a couple of times is too many). I wasn't the example of Jesus Christ that I should have been; I was the example of VPW and LCM and their thuggishness. Yes, I was the Corps Nazi that you all hated. Confession time: I made it hard for my WOW family and for my team (we were two families). If I could find any of them, I would most abjectly and humbly beg their forgiveness for giving them such a hard time. I am very sorry. I pray their hurt has healed.
    2 points
  47. What's Missing from Power for Abundant Living and The Way of Abundance and Power? https://youtu.be/aM8uzzPVe1s description: Something very important is missing from Victor Paul Wierwille's Power for Abundant Living and The Way International's The Way of Abundance and Power classes.
    2 points
  48. must be a thread of a tangled web "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”
    2 points
  49. I still remember approaching the Advanced Class with an expectation of "spiritual enlightenment", only to be sorely disappointed with its content. It may be one of the most depressing realizations I've ever experienced.
    2 points
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