rich

Are they still going to court this month?

I guess they never read it.

Interesting they carry it. it clocks what they have been doing real well.

Maybe they did read it and thought it was a new doctrine they could promote. Or maybe it was " Everybody does it so it must be OK.

Just thinking outloud

This may help. It's part of a letter i recieved when the we were questioning ces and other things. Has a lot of insight.

Boyd writes, “When a people – leaders – gets life from the rightness of their belief and behavior, they will invariably get life by attacking and/or separating from others who don’t see things exactly as they do, even within the body of Christ. They focus on the perimeter rather than the center. Feasting on their own particular versions of truth – which is to them the truth – they will form party lines that fragment the church and ostracize people… perimeters must be constantly attended to. In the name of purity of doctrine and holiness, the body is dismembered into many parts and there is always room for more division.”

This explains to me why there is so much strife in these small groups. There is such a preoccupation with who is in, who is out, who is doing what to whom, offenses, etc. because those things serve to define their perimeters and feed their “correctness.” It is a necessary process to such groups. Further, when someone steps out of the perimeter, but an offense can’t be defined, that sets up real confusion. -----, I think this is what is so frustrating and frightening to ------. She is living from perimeters and you are very confusing to her. She can’t pinpoint a sin, but you’ve chosen to disregard the perimeter and it makes no sense in her framework. So she feels abandoned.

“The essence of the religious spirit is getting life from being truer and more righteous than others, rather than getting life from God and Jesus. It is living off the perimeter rather than the center.” He discusses that out of this comes the need to constantly evaluate others and confront behavior and character. It’s all part of maintaining the perimeter.

He poses the question then, “How do we balance a concern to love non-judgmentally with a concern to become a holy people?” In answering that he distinguishes between our job and God’s job and points out that taking over God’s job is really lack of trust fueled by our desire to build our own system. “Though we may deny it, we are in fact presenting salvation as though it was a matter of getting others to conform to our version of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” God’s job is to bring about holiness, through the work of the spirit. We are to provide a setting for people that allows for that, which is leading people to Christ rather than our own contrived systems.

I believe that that journey looks so different for everyone, and only God/Jesus really have a fix on where someone is in their journey, so we are quite incapable judges. Plus we have our own filters (beams) that blind us.

Then he talks about confrontation – when is it appropriate. He points out that the only sin that Jesus publicly confronted was the false teaching & hypocrisy of the Pharisees and argues that because of their position of power the potential to harm people was extensive. He talks about the teacher’s right to teach about sin and the responsibility to use that with grace and generality, avoiding someone’s public embarrassment. But adds that just because someone has the right to teach, it doesn’t automatically extend into the right to confront privately. He compares someone’s willingness to hear you teach with an invitation into their foyer; with that invitation you don’t barge into their bedroom. It’s ultimately their job to apply the teaching. Then he addresses the intimate relationship in which someone has specifically given you permission to confront him. That relationship is characterized by mutual trust and love which is why the confrontation works. If the confrontation is really motivated by the need to bolster up your contrived system, it will ultimately destroy the relationship.

He writes, “Feedback is not offered on the basis of abstract, idealistic principles of right and wrong. Feedback is rather offered with a personal understanding and empathetic appreciation for the complex uniqueness of the person’s concrete situation…it is loving and helpful, not judgmental...In intimate contexts people are freed to be open about their struggles and to ask for help for they fear no judgment.” I think the operative word here is ASK, and they will if they feel safe.

That’s a mouthful, but I think an example of “feedback” based on abstract principles is statements like, “You need to account for depriving me of fellowship with you.” It leaves us all going, “What????” but makes perfect sense to those who are caught in a system needing to shore up boundaries.

I don't think there are any real winners when a mess like ces comes along. No one remains or walks away with out damage. I guess I'm thankful for waking up to what was going on, but I don't feel like a winner. Now when I found my redeemer Jesus I felt like a winner. still do.

R

Thanks Wolf for a great response. saved me some writting.

It's like what we see with the bod of ces. They hear it thier way and your way is the highway.

EP- What wolf said here is important and can open your eyes if you read it from the right perspective. In some of the stuff you write it sounds like you are one of the ces bod members.

A number of people have tried to point things out but you have chossen not to consider. Maybe what wolf wrote is what you don't know but everone else does and sees.

I pray his last response above will touch you in a heart and mind opening way that will be refreshing and healing

GOD BLESS

RJ

Hay ham

i have sponored a number of trainings and what is stated here is false from my personal experience. Now others may have had a different one. We personaly keep the all the files and at no time were they ever given to the trainer to read review or anything else. The person doing the training also said they did not want to see the paper work so they would not have preconcieved thoughts.

People on the team were not allowed to read them.

we would later destroy them so no ones info was compromised.

The folder was questions about goal stuff. What do you want to get out of the trainig, why are you taking it? Then there was a section for medication and if a person was in professional care. Certian med's would disqualify a person from the training. if they were in professional care they would require a letter of release from that dr. Many time a Dr. would call to find out what the traing was about. I would cover all the exersies in detail.

I would be glad to do that with any of you also.

If you would like to see the questionair we can work out that transfer.

As stated in an earlier post we don't support the trainings any more. The reason was the agreement that was made for us to be sponsors was broken. And that was numbers and money. there qwere other issues like control and people who didn't have the right stature were called a bad enrollment.

Well you can imagine how this just fryied our cork. when did Jesus think someone was a bad enrollment. We fought it and thoses that gave 10's of thousands were welcomed and we were driven out.

Sound like an old story you may have seen been a part of or heard of?

R

R

Yes I think your viewpoint is a good one. Too many hurt people unfortunately just become hurters themselves.

As a Christian it's good to have a deep sense of understanding and compassion for our Christian brothers

and sisters.

There is a good book called "hurt people hurt people" by Sandra Wilson. sets the picture clear.

What I am seeing at CES, under attorney's orders of course, is a desire to deny any wrong-doing in order to save face. Very religious and very unhealthy in my opinion.

They are not listening to anybody that I'm aware of. So how can they change. It would admit a fault. What a copout.

What happened to the truth will set you free?

Minimal?????

That was spoke like a true cult member. Lets see I died but you learned pp how great that was.

I don't know who said it but i'm thankful i'm not part of that family.

Who ever wrote this i'd like to hear if you could share scripture with me? I'd like to see how all that wonderful wisdom dw and jl taught you covered what you said.

Are you still on the bus waiting for vp and jl to show up?

Heres the story about momentous and VQ. When ever you have a push for numbers and money there is an evil work and thats the way these are set up. Sponsors are given a piece of the take. If you are on a team you must have a list of ten people taht you want to inroll. And then there are the coaching calls asking you all about the people you are to be working with. thats were the presure comes in. And the presure is as heavy and condeming as it can get. Now there are those who like that presure and have a large shere of contacts. Most people run through thier family and thats the end of them. There is one big area that showed up real big for me and that was the more money you give the more attention you get. We ARE not created equal when it comes to this. Is it a great tool for abuse both from the giver and from the reciever. it's used as a huge control thing from both sides.

I have to say that my momentus experiance was the hardest thing I ever did put had the greatest fruit. Everyone is built differant so i benifited from what happened in the training. My marrage is the best it has ever been and my kids have benifited the same way. It was something we needed and the time was right.

It's the money and numbers that makes it out of wac and cause all the desention. Well most of it. If it wasn't for the numbers and the money those that disagree with the training propably would never have been it. But the controling pressure , you could call it cult like, is it's biggest enrollment tech.

Dr Phil does the Get Real Chellange. It's the same thing.

Look anything we do has some type of need or some type of control. A great statement from the trainings. ARE YOU GIVING OR TAKING WHEN YOU DO THINGS OR COMUMICATING WITH FRIEND OR FAMILY?

Rich

Hay wordwolf

I posted this long ago maybe you didn't get a chance to read it.

The Stuff going on here ,GS, is no differant than MO or VQ. Whats your puprpose of posting on these threads? To get some anial retentive idiots to see what they are doing is wrong and to protect others from thier curses?

The words printed are very pointed Alot of pressure, anger, hurt, vitial words, rejected souls, fighting for understanding, logic for whats been going on, looking for the truth from or about the ces bunch.

, by giving input to each other or sharing experiences. Look how some of them are responded to. Both good and bad. And once in awhile making no sense.

Any instruction can be used for good or bad. These people, ces, didn't start with MO/VQ. they started a long time ago learning how to manipulate and then took a tool and turned it to thier maniplative advantage.

Look M/VQ are a program that has effects both good and bad and the bad side is very unfortinate.

My marriage has effects both good and bad. Mostly good i'm glad to say because I have learned how to give more and not be taking. Another way of putting it is to make it less about me.

The anial ones at ces don't get it. They are about them and only them. thier actions paint the picture clear.

This a very resent true fact from one of the blind anial ones.

Long letter written to them about some things that might give them insight and the response was as follows. " Do we agree that what God says matters? And if so, do the 10 commandments matter? What about the 9 th commandment about not bearing false testimony against a neighor? Does that matter? Or is it okay to say a lot of untrue things about someone in the name of expressing one's opion, or because there are also a few true things that were stated?"

Then the person states that they are hurt deeply. I posted about this letter on one of the other threads.

If there was one true fact in that letter it was important. But it was stated that there were more than one. I read the letter and there were many points, actualy didn't find anything that I didn't agree with, I found it very true. Then they quote the 10 commands. using the 9th. But don't address " don't steal". These guys have abused ces credit cards, traveled all over the place for personal business to buy personal items and vacation alot. All on those contributed dollars. I think someone tried to address thier missusing funds at one time and they were told to leave.

The 9th!!! what about a bod member going some where for pleasure and when confronted said it was to minister. Yep actually happened. I was on the pleasure end and was amazed at the staement they made.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is lets get back on focuse with ces/stf. The MO/VQ stuff is really irrevelent to what caused these other threads and seems to take the focuse off the true culprits.

God Bless

R

So maybe those 10 commandment beams in thier own eye should be operated on first.

Hey rich, how are things going?

The outlook doesn't look bright for CES. Maybe things can be fixed. Maybe not. If leadership would've just been more

open and honest about things, things may have been worked through in a much better way.

-CS

yep, I think there are probably some common threads that worked evil in both groups. It would be good

to understand what they are.

Hay Sam

Saw a movie a couple of weeks ago and they had a saying, lets see if i can remember it right.

We get to choose the choices we make or the choices others make will choose us.

Have a great day

R

there were teachings about why it was ok to destroy a persons credibility when it came to protecting a man of God`s reputation.

It will sicken you to read what these men did, these men we trusted to be honorable and as pure in heart as we were.

I do not believe that we can trust men such as these, or their take on the scriptures. Sure God worked, in spite of the evil, just like he does in mormon, catholic, baptist, methodist, whatever lable you pin on yourself.

It would seem that he works within whatever parameters we allow. I believe that he worked in our lives in SPITE of what happened in twi.

Looking at this one section relates to ces in my mind.

I have read a resent letter written by some one who was extremly detailed about the experience they had with ces leadership and spouses. They were responded to in a very how dare you way and basicly accused of writting mostly false accounts. When i read the letter I could relate, (not to the personal individual incidents. I wasn't there when they happened)

but the attitude of these leaders and the experience that this person had with them was a match for what i have personally seen and even said to them. I have even been told directly by other people who had the same experience way before this person ever got envoled or thought about trying to open thier eyes.. But the rsponse was to dis this person as not being credable. counting them as not counting. Then being told they are hurt by what was written. Lets condem this person and maybe they will go away.

They don't seem able to see the truth no matter how many times it is spelled out and set before them. This tells me that they therfore can't speak the truth either.

Your statement about destroying persons credibility lives on in all of them.

I don't get them owning up to anything. I do get them trying to be a goat blending in with the sheep.

I read the truth of what I saw in that letter and then the. your not good enough crap and your a sinner as a response .

Makes me very angry that another is pushed aside to protect thier lies.

To you at ces. Please read all the letters that those who have left have written you, again. Maybe you missed something. I hope you weren't so arogant that you threw then out.

To you who haven't spoken up or written, if you think you're too small to make a differance, try slepping in a room with an active mosquito.

Lets start a thread called letters to ces. i'd do it but i'm not sure how to do it. I WILL POST MY STORY WITH THE BOYS ON IT. it will take a while to write, please don't wait for me.

Liv'en in His grace

R

Just gotta say, it seems to me that if a minister devoted his full time career to the work of the ministry--for say, twenty to thirty years!-- teaching the 'greatest known truth since the first century church,' there would be more good fruit to show for it than broken marriages, broken friendships, law suits, internal power plays and weird prophecies and manipulations.

Something basic and important is wrong. IMO, to continue following these leaders is foolish.

AMEN AND AMEN!!!!!!!

My other thought along these lines is, why is lack of qualifications, lack of training the RULE among these self "help" groups, rather than the EXCEPTION?

The community college I went to.. and it was not a large one- EVERY math professor had a MASTER'S degree in math, which over-qualified them for what they were teaching, and 9 out of 10 were currently working on their DOCTORATE.

The university I'm in now- EVERY math professor has a Doctorate, period.

I didn't have to sign a hold harmless agreement with the university when I enrolled, either.

Lack of education among these self "help" groups appears to the rule.

I don't think Joyce meyer has a degree, I thinks her simple life experience approch to the Bible is great. Some of her stuff has sure helped me.

Didn't mg go for the big doctorate degree. Why? So he could show off his intellect and be more believable in the pp research and stuff.

Give me someone with a big heart and knows how to love. thats someone who I would listen to first. The boys of ces etc have so much head knowledge and no practical aplication. One even admitted to me that he wouldn't know how to act, be or understand how to have compassion in a certain siduation. Ended by saying that he couldn't do what we had done.

So take the old degree's and oh well

If you get to thinkin' your a person of some considerable influence, try ordering someone else's dog around

IT DOESN'T TAKE A GENIUS TO SPOT A GOAT IN A FLOCK OF SHEEP!!

Check out the Forum, it is done nation wide and is basicly the same thing done over several weeks or more.

www.forum.com

www.rickross.com

pond pond pond pond

Are we not trusted with His word

Are we not called saints

are we not called to be like him

Didn't he call 12 , not to be trusted? apostles

etc etc etc

are you still in the twi?

are you involved with a church?

OH yeh! arn't we trusted to call others or should i say speak the joy of the lord with others.

why do you use the word adonai?

it is hebrew for God or LORD.

do you not like using our common name? or is it to prove you know a hebrew word that many may not in the course of words and you have again the education beyond their typical understanding

what is your reason to complicate knowing the LORD?

Pond please call Dr Phil!!!!!!

your an evil man .

This last statment of your post says it all. was this a pp? Could have been. You don't even know who CS is but yet you come off like the pp group.

Pond your leve's (sp) are breaking.

Better get a boat.

Your judgement and rath is out of line.

You write some kissy, kissy stuff about you and God and how you are this wonderful cristian and then the real you comes out.

Get the giant beam out of your own eye first.

Who is John Juedes?

Bi-polar and all depression patients have 2 things in common, low selfesteme and unworthyness.

also people use illness like bipolar as a copout. As a cert life coach the stats i recieve is that there are 3 million people with bi-polar disorder in the US. When I read the local paper or talk with all the people that claim to have it, they all live in my town.

It's become the new virus. everybodies getting it.

Groucho, more like "Spiders in Tights International"

They could do a stage production, and REALLY show those debils what for..

They could make a movie called Broken Butt Buddies. Or "butt buddies out of work"

Really? I'm having trouble imaging that.

-JJ

Dr. Phil had parts of it on tv several years back. He is one hard condensending trainer. Maybe try heisweb page and see if it comes up.

One thing I forgot is the techneics used in the training are many times used after on the people. It is used to control people. Your life becomes one big training. Can you spell fun! This does more damage to people. people need to process and that takes time. Sometimes years.

Heres the story about momentous and VQ. When ever you have a push for numbers and money there is an evil work and thats the way these are set up. Sponsors are given a piece of the take. If you are on a team you must have a list of ten people taht you want to inroll. And then there are the coaching calls asking you all about the people you are to be working with. thats were the presure comes in. And the presure is as heavy and condeming as it can get. Now there are those who like that presure and have a large shere of contacts. Most people run through thier family and thats the end of them. There is one big area that showed up real big for me and that was the more money you give the more attention you get. We ARE not created equal when it comes to this. Is it a great tool for abuse both from the giver and from the reciever. it's used as a huge control thing from both sides.

A side note, I remember the look and attitude change on MG's face when it he made a statement about an investment we were going to make , like they were looking for a good portion of it. I said it was for my family and the conversation stopped all together. Shared the experience when I got home and you can guess what our feelins and involment were after that.

I have to say that my momentus experiance was the hardest thing I ever did put had the greatest fruit. Everyone is built differant so i benifited from what happened in the training. My marrage is the best it has ever been and my kids have benifited the same way. It was something we needed and the time was right.

It's the money and numbers that makes it out of wak and cause all the desention. Well most of it. If it wasn't for the numbers and the money those that disagree with the training propably would never have been it. But the controling pressure , you could call it cult like, is it's biggest enrollment tech.

Dr Phil does the Get Real Chellange. It's the same thing.

Look anything we do has some type of need or some type of control. A great statement from the trainings. ARE YOU GIVING OR TAKING WHEN YOU DO THINGS OR COMUMICATING WITH FRIEND OR FAMILY?

Rich

Boris the spider must have an appetite for shutters.

I see they have a special pp antena so the messages and dreams can be recieved from above.