Holy Smoke

We are lifting Sam, his family and all our soldiers up. You see this on the news and sometimes pause or pray for them occasionally "en masse," but when it's someone you know -- or at least know "OF" -- it really hits home.

We pray for God's hand in Sam's recovery, wise decisions by the medics, and for peace and comfort for the Shoenheits.

H.S. and other believers...

Recently I watched a documentary on Jim Jones, (drink the kool-aid guy) on PBS. I couldn't believe how much it sounded like VPW! There was an ex-Peoples Temple follower who said that Jim Jones had sex with her in the back of his bus - the motorcoach -- and told her, "I'm doing this for you, Debbie."

SAME DAMN THING I have read about Doctor!!! I am so glad that those in TWI didn't literally drink the kool aid.

I was not in the ministry -- about 7 years ago I became involved with an ex-Wayfer who told me that our adultery was just fine, that adultery in the Bible was really talking about idolatry and spiritual adultery, blah, blah. I never really bought it 100%, but enough to justify my actions. BLEAHHH! The guy finally moved on to his next victim and it took me a couple years to realize that God saved me from the jerk. Unfortunately, it ended my 15-year marriage.

Then after he married -- and after I remarried years later -- he kept calling me at work, sending me flirty e-mails. The nerve..... yeah, VPW was his hero. And he is still walking in the footsteps of his "father in the word."

Holy Smoke

This reminded me of Monty Python's Holy Grail....I'm sure you've all seen it and cracked up: (this is from memory, so bear with me)

"And the people did feast upon the lambs, orangutangs, sloths, breakfast cereals..."

"Skip a bit, brother!"

"Oh, Lord, bless this thine holy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. Amen."

"First, thou shalt take out the holy pin. Then, thou shalt count to three. Three shalt be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. No more, no less! Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, unless thou proceedest unto three. Five is RIGHT OUT!"

HS

"Finally, and perhaps more importantly, is the fact that Holy Smoke seems conflicted on the matter. She clearly states: "It's like my divorce.... If my husband and I had not told our relatives all our dirt, we'd probably still be together." When you get right down to it, it's nobodies business what goes on behind closed doors. Only members within that household"

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Well, hey everybody, Happy Thanksgiving. Had the day off so thought I'd see what's going on here.

I don't think I'm conflicted, altho the two posts #16 and #17 may appear to conflict. My meaning was exactly what you said, Larry. Sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut until things are worked out privately.

Other times, we need to publicly repent of making fools of ourselves and apologize to those who have been hurt. This goes for anyone, but particularly church and corporate leaders. But the timing and wording depends on the situation, culture, etc.

My illustration with it all is to say that once lawyers are involved, nothing is resolved, things de-volve and move at glacial speed.

HS

In 1954 Josemaria Escriva wrote a little book called The Way.

He was the founder of Opus Dei.

Hmmm.......

Got my new Sower and on p. 21 there is an announcement about a conference being postponed due to serious disagreement among the Board about the direction of the ministry, a request for prayers, and an invitation to contact the Home Office.

This is the second time in the Sower the issue has been referenced, to the extent that it can be, considering the limitations of an ongoing lawsuit.

Congratulations, and best wishes to them both.

Absolutely. I don't know if this is accurate info, but if it is, and they have worked through all the baggage and re-established healthy relationship -- then praise the Lord and the ministry of reconciliation. Thanks for humble hearts and meek spirits that want to forgive and trust again.

So.... what's going on up there? How can that board still function with a lawsuit betwixt members? Anyone heard?

Haven't heard a thing. Did get my new issue of Sower magazine, tho, and it was full color, so the budget is apparently not affecting that publication negatively.

I would suspect lawyers are settling the suit and that should be finished in 3-6 more months. Then you will hear of MG and KAG starting a new ministry somewhere....

Ho hum. We grow weary of this everlasting sameness.

Bless you, Everyone,

I can appreciate the sentiment to not make money off God's work. Lord knows we have seen enough charletons and televangelists who have abused those privileges. So, Roy, I agree that people need to use discernment about where they send their money and for what.

There are also those who simply want to cover their costs of providing something of spiritual help to people. This would be true of any gospel music CD for sale in a store, or any cover charge I've paid to go to a "gospel" concert. No problem! As long as it isn't exhorbitant, I do not begrudge these folks who want to serve God, use their talents and make a living from it.

I am writing from the USA. This culture is one that is different from Paul's and other parts of the world. Like it or leave it -- it's the USA, and the free enterprise system does have its benefits and its pitfalls.

Fact is that some people do not have e-mail and the internet, and even if they do, they want an actual BOOK in their hands to carry around and keep on the shelf. Also STFI has an excellent website with many FREE articles on it. But you can't e-mail or print on an inkjet printer thousands of copies of a 600 page book! That is not an efficient use of funds or equipment.

It can be said that those who copied the scriptures throughout the ages did not make money off it. But a price was paid. Some paid with their lives to produce a book or get a copy of it.

I do not agree that that I. Cor. 9 is talking about "spiritual matters." If you read the context, Paul is talking about the rights of apostles to receive physical comforts and remuneration such as taking a wife along on journeys or getting a meal or two out of the church for his troubles. Read it in the Message (transliteration):

"We who are on missionary assignments for God have a right to decent accommodations, and we have a right to support for us and our families. You don't seem to have raised questions with the other apostles and our Master's brothers and Peter in these matters. So, why me? Is it just Barnabas and I who have to go it alone and pay our own way? Are soldiers self-employed? Are gardeners forbidden to eat vegetables from their own gardens? Don't milkmaids get to drink their fill from the pail?"

This sounds like ol' Paul was pretty irritated, and he did not receive their offerings out of pure obstinance to prove a point.

I think if someone wrote CES and said they could not afford the full price for a book of something, CES would comp it. I know they've had their issues, but I don't see greed as one of them.

Thanks,

Holy Smoke

I agree with Lone Wolf M. There is absolutely nothing wrong with charging for a book -- any kind of book -- that any lay person or clergy puts up the capital to research, edit, do the cover design, print, bind, warehouse, inventory and distribute.

Do you guys have any idea of what kind of $$ it takes to do that?

Yes, Paul had a job. Tentmaker, but he CHOSE not to take anything from the church at Corinth. But he said he sure had a right to take a portion of whatever was collected. Read I Cor. 9. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Believe me CES ain't getting rich or "fat" off anything and anyone who thinks they are doesn't know what he's talking about. The CEO Dan G. is not even paid a salary. And I have gone to their conferences for like $30 -- cheap! -- and they mail me a full-color magazine bi-monthly for Zero $. Believe me, that magazine costs money to produce and they give it away!

So I don't know where you guys are coming from on this one. Something way back in the windmills of your minds.....

Holy Spirit

My understanding was that John Lynn resigned from the board several years ago.

I say.... bring out the fluffy pillows and poke him mercilessly!

Seriously, not sure if ya'll are talking about JS, JL or MG -- or just any other pastor / elder / preacher who has reeaally messed up. But what I wish were on the poll were this option:

* Forgive him, and remove him.

We can forgive people yet still hold them accountable for their actions. Consequences should match the severity of the offense. Trust and forgiveness are 2 different things.

Matt. 18: 15-17 is the model, even for leaders. I Tim. 5:19-20 calls for public rebuke.

JS wrote a letter to the mailing list a few weeks ago...and, as DMiller said, it wasn’t specific.

Now The Sower comes out and you tell us it isn’t specific.

So we wonder.....why have JS and the BOD chosen not to 'honestly share how desperate the situation is'.

Hello. No need to wonder. As I have mentioned on other threads, from a legal standpoint, there are limitations on what an individual or an organization can and cannot say when they are in the middle of a lawsuit.

In their letter, they told donors and constituents all that was permitted or prudent. The letter did not hide the matter, asked for prayers and invited those who were interested to call for more details. Have you called? I did.

Again, from a legal and public relations standpoint, that is all a small, non-profit organization can do in the litigious, finger-pointing culture we call the good ol' US of A. From a biblical standpoint, JL has taken it to the church (and beyond), the offending people have been "demoted" and if not for the lawsuit, I would imagine would have been entirely removed from leadership.

The board shake-up has been communicated. You know the situation. They know you know it. They've already asked for prayers.

That being said, I understand where you're coming from. You had a painful experience, lo those many years ago, and this reminds you of it, and for good reason. It's hard not to project the motives or outcomes from the past into this situation.

I agree that in the absence of a lawsuit, a letter from the President in the Sower and on the website and yes, even here on the GS would be appropriate and would go a long way toward repairing damaged trust, answering questions, diffusing criticism, healing hardened hearts, etc. A letter of honesty, amends, clarifications, lessons learned and plans for the future, written with gentle tact and taste, would go a long way.

Stay tuned. That may yet happen.

When does this abusive behavior, self delusional behavior of religious leaders stop?

When Christ comes back. Maranatha.

*shakes my head sadly and leaves the thread*

Hey, there, please don't be sad. I wasn't saying that I revel in seeing this kind of dirt in the paper. Far from it. I was just saying that it's a fact that the more sensational it is, the more the media picks it up. Especially if its in open record.

I see stories about clergy abuse -- either sexual or financial -- in the paper on a regular basis. Watchdog journalists love to expose controversy. So.... that's why I was wondering if and when this has hit the news desk. Maybe if it did, people would be more likely to settle before further public embarrassment.

"Jeeves, bring the thumb screws.."

Ham, I don't always agree with you, but you crack me up.

Yeah, this Momentus thing sounds sketchy at best. I did some prayer ministry sessions called Theophostic Prayer, on the other hand, which was very peaceful and wonderful and emotionally healing. It's basically a combination of counsel, prayer, meditation, listening for God's voice.... it was great. The Lord addressed a whole bunch of old lies in a matter of weeks that had been emotionally crippling me for 30 years.

Some tears, but no screaming. http://www.theophostic.com/ I checked it out before I did it. There were no legal forms involved or I would have said no thanks.

I'd submit that very, very few journalists would care.

Are you kidding me??? Spiders, demons, church strife... that stuff sells papers!

Of course if there were some drugs, sex or financial fraud involved, it would be more interesting....

The question then - how can we build a Christian organization that is dynamic, organized,

and healthy ?

Boy, that's something disciples have been trying to figure out since 34 A.D. The Corinthians (the saints at Corinth) were condescending, out of control, puffed up, immature, you name it. Did not sound like a "healthy" congregation to me. But Paul calls them saints. Then he rips them a new one....

My first thought is that as long as you have human beings making up the "organization" you will have some degree of unhealthiness. Because everyone has some degree of brokenness and we all have to hobble along helping each other until we are perfected, which will be on the Last Day.

That being said, until then, two things have to be paramount: 1. Truthfulness and 2. Humility. Look back on every failed church or fallen minister and you see those things being compromised at leadership level.

Although I would agree with 99% of what Dr. Jeudes wrote in his article, I would not agree that the concept of personal prophecy is without biblical support. That would be like saying that because someone abused the Lord's Supper -- which we know the Corinthian church did in I Cor. 11:20 -- that you just stop doing it, that it's "bad theology" because it engenders gluttony and drunkenness and class-ism.

Dr. Jeudes did not address I Cor. 14:24, which says "But if an unbeliever or inquirer comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

Do you think maybe Ananias told Paul the words the Lord had given to him in Acts 9:15 as an encouragement? I would think so. And apparently Timothy was given personal prophecies about his ministry I Tim. 1:18. "Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,..."

Again, I agree that this practice can (and DID) become abusive by some. But that could be said of just about any practice in the church. I grew up in a church where baptism -- how you did it, when you did it, where you did it, what you said while doing it -- became more important than the Lord Jesus Christ! It was the litmus test of whether you were a REAL Christian. If you did not follow the pattern, you were going to Hell. Period.

Does that mean I reject baptism totally? That I throw out the baby with the baptismal water? No. It just means as I grew up and got outside that box, I learned how to put the ordinance in its rightful place.

Just food for thought. Thank you for reading and thanks to Dr. Jeudes for his article.

I see that the STFI Admin and Staff pages have been updated.

The risk versus the reward in this case seems extremely high with a low potential payoff. This guy would be better off buying $500 worth of quick picks on the Hoosier Lottery.

Exactly. And sorry Groucho had to bite his lip on my previous post, but I thought it was relevant to the topic, since it is an actual case and is current. Ludicrous yes, but unfortunately it's common in every city. My other point being that public records about whacky church stuff have a way of getting to reporters. Anybody seen any press on this yet?

Wish I could help with that request. What I can't believe is that any lawyer (or judge) would take a defamation suit this seriously, after reading that Prophetic Council litany of prophecies. It seems to me a counter-suit for harrassment would have more merit.

Examples abound. I saw this in the newspaper this weekend. I have removed the names. Sound vaguely familiar?

"She believed he was a prophet, a man who received instructions from God.

Because of that, {Woman} said, she thought the punishment administered by the Rev. {Three Name Pastor}was justified.

Woman said {Pastor} began paddling her -- first with pants on, and later with them off -- for not reading assigned Scriptures or for disobeying orders. Later, she said, Pastor made her exercise to the point of exhaustion, running laps around the church sanctuary or doing lunges across the living room of his home.

Finally, she said, the abuse turned sexual.

"There are certain types of figures you trust," she said. "I gave that trust to him as my pastor. I honestly thought of him as a spiritual father."

Last week, Woman filed suit against {Pastor}, 45, founder and senior pastor of the {such and such} church. The suit seeks unspecified damages for physical and psychological pain."

Yeah, thanks Billy D. I knew the lawyers would tell everyone to hunker down. I used to work in child protective situations and it was always a chore to get the lawyers to see that "no comment" is the same as cutting your throat! Therefore, I know that even if STFI leadership WANTED to say something, their hands may be tied now.

I imagine the involved lawyers are reading this board right now, collecting documentation. Hi, Legal Beagles! Yeah, I know you're out there! Go chase an ambulance or somethin'!

Anyway, Billy, I think Ham was originally talking about "where would the prophetic council go" after disbanding. Not the fired employees. But Ham.... your reference to the bizarre... you know the Bible? There's some bizarre stuff in there, dude! :D

Thank you, those who understood that I am not saying it is entirely the abused person's fault. It is difficult -- if not impossible -- when you are in that abusive and painful situation to look from the outside and get a clear picture.

It's terrible that some people were so hurt. I agree that beliefs were skewed. I think that pride is running rampant. No one wants to admit "I was blind."

None of us should ever expect any leader to be above or beyond getting off track. We should be keeping our eyes on Jesus and no one else. Everyone else -- even "fit" leaders -- will eventually disappoint us.