Romans10910

Thank you dear Ryan !!!!! when you were 2 or 3 you bit the butts of those you loved! HA!!!

That surprisingly sounds like me lol I did a lot of wierd stuff like that when i was little

No, I havent as yet!

Ryan :) her email is rcj8@myway.com and she said to give you her phone number but i would do that over a message

I'm not particularly good at breaking up a post into several quotes, so I'm going to interject my thoughts here in boldface.

George

Well stated.

My idea of God is quite transcendent in some ways, but I do agree with you that we can know God and can have a relationship with Him, we know that He loves us and that He wants the best for humanity and wants us to keep His commandments. But to claim that you know what His will is for your personal life, to claim that He wants you to be rich, to have that new car, to have a new church building, etc...that is what we cannot know, and that is what the Law of Believing stresses: material prosperity.

Well, we do have freedom of will and God was very specific in giving it to us. We are not predestined to anything. God knows what is going to happen already but does not decide what you do. Again it all has to do with what is available (wayism).

Well if our prayers happen to line up with God's desires, then all is good and well. But often times, they don't. In fact much of the time things happen that are completely not what we expected from Him, but we are thankful anyway because He has helped us. He's so much larger than we are, and we are so small. For one to blatantly declare that he has knowledge of the ways of God is, in a sense, quite arrogant.

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Rom. 11:33)

Your idea of God seems to be very transcendent, which would fit the idea that NOTHING could be known of God since we are merely human beings (which would follow after Islam), but so much is revealed in the word about God and his love for man.

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments" (1 John 2:3)

Okay oldiesman.

Let's say "the Word" (is the Word the Bible, is it Christ...? "The Word" is a very vague term) tells me that a new building for a church is available for the taking. But then another believer doesn't agree, he doesn't see that in the Word. Anyone could say they saw something revealed in the Word, and claim it to be God's will. It's completely subjective. Within TWI's distraught history, you can clearly see how this could be used by leadership to control believers into thinking that they knew the will of God for believers' lives.

No one said we can't have what we are praying for, but we shouldn't arrogantly expect to get what we want or are asking for. Again, we don't have control over God's will. If He chooses to do things differently than what we wished or believed, then so be it. His will should take precedence over ours.

Another thing I would like to point out: the Law of Believing calls for the believer to have material prosperity, in the belief that this prosperity comes from God. This is no different than what many charismatic and Pentecostal groups, and Joel Osteen, preach: that God wants you to be rich! While this is nice, it's just not biblical. It's like...Christianity Lite. In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of His disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his cross." In support of this alarming prediction, He forcefully contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," He asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" It is one of the New Testament's hardest teachings, yet generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian, on some level, means being ready to sacrifice--money, autonomy or even their lives. How do Jesus' words not flatly contradict the Law of Believing? And what of the millions of monks and nuns who have renounced the world to seek after God? Are they seeking after their material desires? Hardly.

I think the problem is looking at expectations as arrogance. Not to get offensive, that's not my intention, but it seems like you're stereotyping all of believing as imposing a persons will over God's. God's going to do what God's going to do. If your prayers line up according to what He is willing and able to do, why wouldn't He provide for you. I think that's the problem in this conversation; one must know what is available and ask and expect. Yes, sacrifices must be made at times but they must be made with a whole heart or they are worthless, it is not through works that we are saved but grace and grace alone. Also, as for monks and nuns, sincerity does not guarantee truth. Seclusion from the world does not help anyone, we should not be of this world but we sure do live in it and have to deal with it on a daily basis in order to survive.

Well no, there is nothing wrong with going to God for things that you need, but any petition must be done to God in a spirit of humility. The Law of Believing sets in mind that the believer has the power to change God's will by belief that one will get 'X'. It is arrogant to assume that we, mere human mortals, can say to an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God: "This will happen in my life, and You will make it happen as a result of my faith." Now, of course, people don't use exactly these words, or an equivalent, but this self-centered ideology that Christianity is about material prosperity inherently denies the relationship that God wants us to have with Him. Just as He puts humanity before everything else, so believers need to put Him before everything else, even their own lives. What TWI and it's splinter groups don't realize is that Christianity is a sacrifice, a struggle--and so is marriage.

Does God's will say I cannot have what I am praying for? Knowing what is available is 95% of the "equation." As God's children (I've never seen the term "mere mortal" used in the word) we should be able to ask our Father for what is available and expect or believe He will deliver. Also, the phrase "I'll do my best, God will do the rest" fits very well here. When you pray and believe for something to come to pass you must take actions in the physical realm that will enable the results intended.

I can tell you anything you want to know being a son and all...

did anyone know Renee Joseph or at the time Renee Conti? :blink: