Bapsy

On 11/14/2017 at 2:03 PM, T-Bone said:

The way I understand it – and I could be wrong – perhaps confusion arises from forgetting the dual nature of Jesus Christ – since John 1:18 in the Greek can be translated he is one of a kind (which if it is addressing that duality – again, I’m not sure - could encompass both his human and divine nature - - a hybrid if you will)…Replying to the last part of your post - there are other verses that one could interpret as speaking of Christ’s preexistence:

John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" …John 1:15

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." … John 8:58

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was….John 17:5

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;  2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;  3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;  4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ…I Corinthians 10: 1-4

Still not answered my very last question. 

I also know that he was the promised seed.  John 7:42, Genesis 3:14-15, Mat 1:1-16, Gal 3:16.

Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6-7 , Isaiah 53:10-11

As you can see there were prophecies of Christ or Messiah and the people of God already knew it, just to reply on your last post.

Acts 2: 32-36

That's why I still believe that Jesus Christ was with God in his foreknowledge.

http://www.christadelphians.com/biblebasics/0703christingodsplan.html

On 11/11/2017 at 4:37 PM, Twinky said:

I don't think Jesus existed as a person (or other kind of entity) before he was conceived.  But he was a part of God's plan in a similar way as if, perhaps, grandparents or great grandparents might look forward (in the truest sense) to the birth of their children, and their children's children, etc, and make plans accordingly by acquiring a safe home in a safe location, sufficient defences, sufficient wealth, etc.  (Of course, God's plans are infinitely bigger than the plans of mere mortals like grandparents.)

You see!, this is also little problem as i don't see any other evidence of Jesus existing before he was conceived. I know that the John 1:1-8 trigger the trinity beliefs and many interpretation as well but the thing is that still not clearly prove the existence of Jesus like we know of existence of  Lucifer, his rebellion  and the warfare (Ezekiel 28:12-17, Isaiah 14:12-17). 

Was Jesus with God during the rebellion of Lucifer, Warfare in heaven? I know that he was with God from beginning as recorded in John 1:2, is this enough to prove his existence?

Peace,

Bapsy

On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 8:43 PM, T-Bone said:

Hi Bapsy,

just to be clear I never implied that John 1 supports the Trinity. But I do believe it speaks of the divinity of Christ – as does your reference/link to Philippians 2:6.

And regarding your link/reference to Ephesians 4:6 – I don’t have a problem with that either. I’ve come across this being addressed in several systematic theologies – that point to God the Father being the originator…the source…and Jesus Christ as the only authorized agent to act on behalf of the Father.

Steve Lortz has a great doctrinal thread on the economy of the Trinity – which makes a lot of sense to me…if you think about it – economy is the careful management of wealth and resources in terms of production and the consumption of goods and services – that dictionary definition is sort of business like…a little cold and clinical for my taste but in fact maybe that’s just a technical description of how the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit conduct the business of redemption…I dunno…but do check out his thread Doctrine of the Trinity     …you may find it enlightening…

I’ve often stated on Grease Spot I am a Trinitarian – but I use the term loosely – since there’s quite a variety of strains – and as I’ve said before on other doctrinal threads – there are many biblical subjects that defy our penchant to categorize and interpret the biblical data into neat, simple, and clear formulas for doctrine. But that’s just my standard disclaimer when it comes to matters of faith, doctrine, etc. - I could be wrong. I’m not a theologian – just an innocent bystander.

Your link/reference to Romans 10: 9 & 10 reminds me of a great book by F.F. Bruce  Jesus: Lord & Savior    ...the book in simple terms shows how the early Christians began to perceive Jesus Christ...It was one of the first books I read after leaving the way international, that got me to think outside the box of the way's doctrine....anyway, just a thought.

love & peace

T-Bone

 

Hi T-Bone,

That's great comments and I'd like to say you right and all the ex-way should think outside the box of the ways doctrine or even other doctrines. That's what I'm trying to do since I left the way international, thinking outside of doctrines and understanding biblical subjects outside the box, but not being judgmental anyway.

Regards,

Bapsy

On ‎8‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 2:41 PM, Bolshevik said:

I do not see foreknowledge in those Ephesians verses in the sense that can be used to disprove a Trinitarian view of  John 1:1.

Am I missing something?

http://thelivingtruthfellowship.org/jtltf/bible-teachings/articles-by-topc/faq/322-what-does-the-bible-teach-about-the-trinity

http://freechristianministry.com/integrity6.html

I'm not in position to disprove any belief or doctrine of anyone and we can bring the verses or article and won't be enough to cover this. As for me I don't mind if you're Trinitarian or Unitarian, but we need to get a big picture on the John1:1 what beginning he is talking about and if this support indeed the trinity.

http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-5.htm

I Timothy 2:5

Proverbs 8:22-23 http://biblehub.com/proverbs/8-23.htm

http://biblehub.com/ephesians/4-6.htm

in bottom line I believe in one God  period. http://biblehub.com/philippians/2-6.htm

Romans 10:9-10 http://biblehub.com/romans/10-10.htm   I Believe in Jesus Christ as our savior.

On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 9:31 PM, T-Bone said:

and he further obfuscates any intelligible meaning by Offering an explanation saying the only way Jesus Christ could have existed in the beginning was in the mind of God - in his foreknowledge - that is to suggest that certain thoughts of God are "distinctly independent " of God's own mind.... so way back when - Jesus Christ even though he only existed in the mind of God - this....."thought" still had something like a free agent status and could have joined another team... fortunately for us this "thought" went to bat for Christianity - rah rah - gooooooooo "Jesus Thought "! Or maybe God just has a split personality disorder.

you see, all these topics of Trinity mainly pointed to John1:1, Hell and Heaven mainly, Jesus is God, is continue bringing hell of confusion to Christians minds and there is no prefect clarification regarding.

The highlight comments may Concorde with Ephesians 1: 4;5 " we are chosen before the foundation of the world" how's it possible if is not through His foreknowledge? Seems like I don't to believe people and the bible anymore! too many confusion! 

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

So I just checked the Way home site because I needed to feel better about my life, so I went there and looked and realized my life couldn't be that bad because I still am not in a cult anymore.  So I've got that going for me.....

I do that as well, Sometimes I feel like let me check if there is any change so far, but seems that cult system thing still there.

I had way followers visit and they exhorted me with some verses to go back and be part of household again. I thanked them for stopping by and visiting me as well but I made it clear that going back is not going to change anything and so they haven't on their cult things. They was hoping me change my mind which didn't happen..., so yes that was weird!

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 5:39 AM, T-Bone said:

I found something a long time ago that i thought was helpful in gaining a biblical perspective on the tithe - in Decision Making & the Will of God by Garry Friesen with J. Robin Maxson

“…the tithe, which was foundational to the economic system of the theocratic nation of Israel, is not part of the economic system of the church. In the church, there are no taxes, dues, membership fees, or any other prescribed assessments. The ministry of the church is supported as each member gives “as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion” (2 Corinthians 9:7). And so, Christians are not under obligation to practice tithing.” (from page 357)

The chapter also talks about there being something almost like a planned obsolescence to the tithe in that the local church was not considered a “storehouse” like the temple, the reward of material blessing to faithfulness promised to Israel is not mentioned for the church, according to the Apostles the Mosaic Law was set aside for Christians, and that the express command to tithe is not carried over into the New Testament.

Another thing I wanted to comment on was your mention of what other churches are doing with the tithe in your first post. while I certainly don’t think it’s proper for them to blunt the joy of giving by pressuring folks (calling it the tithe) – it does make me think of another shady aspect of TWI in that The Way International does not have open books like other churches - that can be reviewed by the public – so you don’t know where your money goes!

Hi T-Bone,

Thanks for your comments and I agree with all that but we keep seeing churches taking advantages of Malachi 3:10 which is often misunderstood. And to bring more emphases on the tithe they use Malachi 3:8-9 which God was addressing to people of Israel for that time in OT. This is what I don't agree and not happy to hear in the churches.

Instead we can clearly see 2 Corinthians  9:7 and Acts 2:40-47 but the emphases is on Acts 2:44-46. 

Guys,

I'm not sure if this topic has been discussed and what was the outcome, after all many Christians struggle with the issue of tithing and including member of twi, as I was one of them because this didn't convince me in certain ways. Should Christ tithe? so what's the story behind the story?

 you take close a look on the twi  post November 7, 2016 Giving to God—The Tithe for reference.

We as Christians are not under the tithe.

The lie that we ever were obligated to give ten percent of everything was, well, a lie.

At worst, it has been an excuse by ministers to control a larger portion of wealth, or even to rake some in for their own selves. At best it is misguided, and wrong, on part of well-intentioned but misguided ministers.

But, brethren, let us not use liberty as an occasion to the flesh. As we reap, so shall we sow.

God has poured out His riches already, how much more He longs to do for us.

Our job then is to give our sharing to those we think best suited to take this bounty and use it to minister to the earthly needs, the need for food, clothing, and shelter, of God's people, and to care for His ministers.

what's the origin of the tithe and what does it mean? 

Should I Tithe because is a commandment?

Does the Bible require me to give 10 percent of my income ?

What Does the Bible Say About the Tithe or Tithing?

I see that a lot of Churches and denominations still recommending Christians to give tithe and promising them that they will be blessed and protected. If not then God will turn everything against them.

On 10/25/2016 at 5:05 PM, chockfull said:

What is after TWI is wide open actually.  It's tremendous freedom.  But it is daunting to face, isn't it?  Some leave Christianity all together, others attend mainstream churches, still others assemble small fellowships.  Some start or join splinter groups with most of the doctrine intact, but more loving they say.  

From my perspective, 2 things didn't change for me after leaving TWI - 1) God and 2) Me and my perspective towards God

I have continued to function in my community, running across and fellowshipping with many different brands of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.  and learning to appreciate all of the above without the same elitist prejudicial attitude that I had being part of "God's royal exclusive household" in the Way, which in all actuality was a learned type of Westboro Baptist attitude of hate.  I have attended several churches and still do at times and found one that my family is most comfortable with to attend regularly.

Hi Chockfull,

I real like these two lines mentioned in red but can I ask you why did you decided to try with many different brands specially Hindus, Buddhists, what it's feel like. in other words you wanted to try your freedom in many different perspective? 

actually i tried also a splinter groups but not yet other churches and i'm sure with time i will find one where my family will be comfortable.

Thanks for your thoughts and contribution

Bapsy

On 10/19/2016 at 3:40 PM, T-Bone said:

in my opinion if there’s anything valuable in them it was something he stole from others anyway – and speaking of his flagrant plagiarism I figure why not cut out the middleman (VPW) and go straight to the source (the authors VPW stole from) – and in that regard I like some of E.W. Bullinger’s works How to Enjoy the Bible, The Companion Bible, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible and his Commentary on Revelation…and let me just say since I left TWI - with my critical thinking process under constant development – I don’t agree with everything Bullinger said or that I’ve come across in other favorite authors. Ah yes – the freedom to think and choose! It's a wonderful thing.

I like your last words in here, the freedom to think and choose also adding the agree to disagree and examine careful the teaching. While on TWI i didn't with everything they taught over there and I end up arguing with leaders and they reinforced to read only VPW's books and nothing else! Seems like slavery and mind control.

Yes, I agree 100% with you on that and likewise my critical thinking process under constant development and is dynamic.

Hi gents,

I like your comments which somehow is helping me to be more confident with my decision and never regret for leaving vpw empire.

But what I learned is that most of former member never attended any other church because he or she won't fit in and that's what i'm experiencing and thanks you guys for sharing your experience with me which is good and helping a lot. See, i come to realize that the question is " after leaving TWI, what is the next step? where to fit in? anyways probably you guys have answered already these question.

T-Bone : I left TWI and I still have VPW's books with me, so what you guys advise on that. Do you still keep them and refer to them whenever you want?

On 10/5/2016 at 10:36 PM, Rocky said:

Hi Bapsy,
You're not likely to find a church or fellowship where the TWI interpretation of the bible will fit in. You might try a twi spin off or two, but even those are likely to feel weird.

When belonging to a group where you can feel like you fit in becomes important to you, more than likely you'll have to decide which things you now believe that you're willing to overlook or change your beliefs. It can help if you find someone in a Christian church that has known and helped people who have left twi. About a decade after leaving, I tried going to a church for a couple of years. One of the associate pastors had known someone in my situation before. We became good friends. It was helpful to me.

But eventually (and this friend moved away to take a senior pastor position in another state) I lost interest in churches and the bible altogether. I found other people with whom to feel like I belonged.

Hi Rocky,

That's very true and thanks for sharing this info with me because that's what i'm going through right now,that's weird hmm!.  You know, sometimes I feel losing interest in churches as well, but not in bible a i continue read over and over to find answers and overlooking the beliefs in the light of the word. Also what's worrying me is the kids, if i don't find any church to fit in, what will be the consequences?

Again thanks for your comments and for sure try to find someone in a Christian church to help me. Hey, what you think of JW? Can fit in there?

I left twi because of the leadership behavior and somehow I felt being forced to something that I wasn't comfortable with it and so many other things. Now that I left seems like struggling to find where to go from here or which church to fit in. But for now i prefer to continue my biblical studies at home until i find one. There are many doctrines out there and confusing still ( Trinity vs Unitarian), so what is what after twi?

Check out this link " an open letter for those who are disillusioned with TWM by John P. Juedes"

http://www.caic.org.au/biblebase/way/open-ltr.htm

T-Bone - thanks for your comments and sharing your point of view regarding the subject and of course i found that helpful.

JayDee - I will definitely google  Biblical Unitarian and learn more about trinity, thanks for sharing.

Twinky-  Of course i will not be the only to benefit from my question or doubt regarding the TWI teachings and  doctrine,  Brainstormer  as well, because she will know for fact what kind of teaching and doctrine  her daughter is learning. We can't tell her to force Jessie to leave TWI, but with time she will understand what we experienced in there and why we left.

Talking about leaving, just 2 hrs ago, I met with two members of the TWI and they are leaving the as well because of leadership behavior is not blessing them anymore   

Well I hope Jessie to find her way out before is too late.

Hi T-Bone! thanks for your few words and for sharing the link of the interesting book.

I needed to be on forums sites like this ''Grease Spot'' where I can share and consolidate my biblical knowledge with members. I have experienced a lot of things in TWI but also somehow they had good teaching as well that's why I'm not pointing the fingers, there are many others cult or church with unacceptable behavior and teachings and I encourage people just to seek the truth and God's will (John 8:32, Romans 12:2), that will set you free instead of pointing fingers.

I was born and raised on Catholic church and with time, suddenly I stop attending and join twi where I was attending household fellowship with way members. In Catholic I was taught about trinity ( Tri-gods - Father, son and Spirit) and TWI teaches one God and Jesus Christ is son of God, others religious teach that Jesus Christ is God and they often refer to I John 1:1-18.

Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?

On 9/11/2016 at 11:55 PM, Brainstormer said:

Hello,

I recently found this site and I am hoping that there are some people who can help me. I will attempt to keep this as anonymous as possible by saying that I have a young adult child (who I will refer to as Jessie) who is involved in The Way. Jessie met a friend whose parents are somewhere in the leadership and that's how it started. Jessie really liked learning more about the bible and took some classes. My husband and I are Christians and we thought that Jessie was attending a bible study group. Not until we did more research did we realize that the Way is a cult. Jessie has never been in trouble. Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult.  Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God" and does not realize that this group is destructive and incorrect about important theology. Jessie has not shut us out; we have a very close family relationship. But we are concerned about Jessie getting more entrenched. Jessie wants to go on an outreach program (forgive me that I don't know all the appropriate terminology) where you live in a group somewhere and work a part time job and then do Way things the remaining time. Jessie has a college degree and a good job that Jessie would be leaving. Not a good move from our vantage point.

We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?

Thank You!

Gents

I have been with TWI since 2002 and kind enjoy the biblical studies, but with time i experienced weird behaviors from members of TWI and Leadership. Now as of this year i decide to step out from religious, churches, denominations and etcs.

See the things is that people are make it hard and complicating the word of God on their own benefits. For me i'd say give sometime and she will fig out the truth and where to go. One of the things that I don't agree is that TITHE is mandatory from God. For me all the churches that demand tithe is FAKE because that's not true. I gone through research and bible verses regarding this Regarding the Tithe

http://www.freechristianministry.com/tithe.html

Below the webpage regarding 

Ex- The Way International

http://www.freechristianministry.com/TheWay.html 

I still have others resources.