Darrell Bailey

Darrell,

Have you ever known a guy in the 6th Corp by the name of Seth Weiss? He had a deformed right arm, and (pretty much) had a humorous and 'glad-to-know-ya' demeanor about him.

He was my W.O.W. branch leader when I was out WOW during 76-77, and I heard some rumors that he didn't complete the Corps program? Can you fill in the blanks as much as you can for me please?

Thanks! :)

Hi Garth,

I do not remember Seth. But my memory had faded much since then.

Happy Trails,

Darrell Bailey

You are very welcome , themex.

I enjoyed looking at all those people I used to know. (I started 6th corps but decided to leave after six months into my second year.)

So i was surprised when i saw some familiar faces and remembered some of their names.

DB

Shellon, Thanks so much for posting the link to the book.

I read it on-line over several days and just finished this morning.

I encourage any greasespotters to check it out, regardless of your desires to go to church.

It doesn't take a lot of time to read the whole thing.

I found many places where the experiences I had in TWI (as well as many personal twi-lifestyle viewpoints expressed by others on this forum) were essentially similar to the storylines in the book.

Seeing that in the story other people went through journeys like those shared by people in these forums, I felt very validated about my life and struggle.

( There was a point about 2/3 of the way through, where I wept for a moment, as I remembered the sincere heartfelt experience of just holding hands with other people and innocently and truly praying for one another )

I was also greatly comforted that my journey since leaving twi (almost exactly thirty years ago) has included learning and challenges I see reflected and represented in the book.

Unlike other "resources" (such as the materials, meetings, and websites of organized offshoots populated by former-twi-ers) the hosts for this book are not demanding money, or membership, or likemindedness.

I was free to read, and I did not have to "commit" to anything.

With that in mind, and having finished the book, I would gladly pay to get a copy to re-read and or to share.

Unlike other times (like the offshoot "ministries") when and where there is so much "noise" and very little "signal", I felt free to come and go to the site, and did not have to sort through a lot of creeds, expectations, and just plain old hot air emanating from an "insider, elite I know more than you" verbosity with hints of manipulation in order to fully participate in the life that is being described.

It was a good way to start off the new Year.

DB :)

I am pretty sure John is in the fifth row from the back, 3rd from the end on the right side of the picture.

You have to zoom in. To his left is a very tan blonde young lady, and to his right is a young lady with dark hair.

Right behind him is J***y Ca**ol in a plaid jacket. John is wearing a suit and tie and just a mustache.

In front of John are a young lady and young man, he is wearing a white suit.

Darrell B.

I thought I would weigh in here with what I've been thinking about and learning about this subject lately. First, I'm very suspect of any "doctrine" taught by TWI, whether about the nature of God, or heaven, hell, death etc. We were so indoctrinated to believe what was taught in PFAL and the explanations given to explain away contrary views.

I have to agree whole-heartedly. Unlearning, and learning past what was in PFAL has moved me in quantum leaps away from TWI doctrine.

Lazarus in Abraham's bosom: Luke 16:19-31

The great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12

The mount of transfiguration - Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-4

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

the spirits of just men made perfect in Revelation

Again, I have always felt that the "Are the Dead Alive Now" book failed to explain the Mount of Transfiguration experience. It was simply dismissed as a vision.

But even in a vision for Jesus to communicate with the dead (or perceived dead) would be a violation of God's direct will. (e.g. Saul and "Samuel")

There are others but I don't have a lot of time right now. So the Bible does indicate that the dead are alive, in spite of what we learned in PFAL, but there are also verses that indicate what's called "soul-sleep" until the Resurrection.

Again, I agree that New Testament statements support a one time judgement/bema event, but also indicate every believer who dies experiences that same event right after they die, but the space between their passing appears to be "sleep" to those left behind.

So, I've been thinking, what if both are true? We live in a limited arena of space and time, limited to three space dimensions and one time dimension. But the realm of heaven is outside of time and space, so what if those who leave this earthly realm through death, go immediately to the heavenly realm which is outside of our limited view of linear time. To us and our limited view they may be "asleep", but to them, they are immediately transported to the "eternal life", which is outside of our limited view of space and time.

Again, this is the conclusion I made. Time exists for the mortal. God can also manipulate how we mortals experience time. God can move people forward in time to see events.

I think that Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus on that Mount, while all three of them were "alive". I think Moses departed from the timeless conference with the glory of meeting the Messiah, as well as the revelation of the Tabernacle. I think that Elijah had just been picked up by the Chariot and this was stop number 1.

(Remember Elisha picked up another portion of spirit as Elijah left)

-----

So I believe the simplest representation would be a huge circle representing a curved timeline. All mortal people are moving in the same direction on this huge circle. (WE are all time travelers, we just go in one direction, and we can't "skip")

When a believer dies, they stop traveling along the timeline, and they move from the perimeter of the circle to the center.

But this distance is exactly the same for all people, regardless of when and where they started the timeline, regardless of how "long" they lived, the distance, and in one way of thinking, the arrival time for all is the same.

Time as we are defining it here, exists only for the living.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I recently came across this which may explain it better than I:

"Soul Sleep" or Immediate Resurrection

Welcome to the jungle, er I mean the greasespot.

I hope you find some friends and fellowship here.

Is the Bill M-rt-n you speak of the piano player from the Indy branch meetings in the 70's?

God Bless us every one :)

DB

I don't have my copy of the septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew old Test) handy, or my concordance of it, but I do think doulos may be used in the septuagint for the branded slave.

But the usage in the New Testament world to Jews and Gentiles would not have carried the same terms of the service.

Doulos, diakonos, leiturgos, therapou, all these are diferent words for service in greek. But in the ancient greek cultures slavery most of the time is doulos and it is not a voluntary after 7 years legislation.

Gentile people reading the gospels or the epistles in 100 ad would not necessarily have the Hebrew background (Deut 15:17) to draw from in thinking doulos.

The Hebrews had these safeguards about slavery (7 years or year of jubilee) because they were respecting the Lord who had delivered them from bondage (Passover and all that Cecil B. Demille spectacular stuff).

So I think there are some differences between the branded slave of early Israel and the service we are in to our Lord Jesus.

(The groaning of the children of Israel closely typifies the bondage of the human race, as well as all creation (see Romans "8") and our Deliverance by Christ who is our passover)

BUT, it is thrilling to think that maybe the 7 years (7 = sabbath, perfection, Lord of the Sabbath, etc) is symbolic of the service we fulfill in this life, and after our Lord returns, being totally freed, we now serve him out of pure love, carrying his mark and brand!

God Bless us every one :)

DB

There is a passage in the OT that I really don't have time to look up. A person could only be a slave for 7 years, then he had to be freed. If he loved his master and didn't want to go, but preferred to serve him all the days of his life, he was branded and his ear was pierced, wherein he wore an earring with the insignia of his master. In the Greek the word for this is "doulos." It is a slave because of love, not of bondage.

WG

Hi Watered Garden, and all others who are part of this thread whether posters or viewers.

I do not want to give the impression that I am promoting bondage or legalism when I speak of being a slave to our Lord Jesus.

When I speak of everything I have belonging to my Lord not me, I say it with Love and Joy.

My family, my work, are no less dear to me when I actively consider myself as a servant of the Lord.

In fact, this re-visioning of "ministry" to my family and work and friends allows me to fulfill the desire that guided me the seven years I spent in twi, serving God.

I now believe that as I learn more about serving and taking care of those in my immediate world, I am learning to serve God and the Lord Jesus, and "doing his will".

I think that many times in twi we were sidetracked into abstract areas of service, often in the form of "obeying" every whim of the "leadership".

--

I know that there are sections of New Testament scripture that use sonship imagery that seems to contradict servant/lord thinking.

In my experience, I felt more bondage while in the way, even as we talked about Sonship Rights.

I believe that twi (as well as many other organizations) fell into phariseeism & or legalism.

I felt constant pressure to do everything right.

And instead of learning better ways of serving, I just got handed more and more detail in what was supposed to happen.

(Maybe it was my failure to get "it", but I did not get much insight into how to serve better)

I think that the branded slave teaching (that was the name of the tape vpw taught in the 70's) got informally or in practice placed into the realm of "spiritual" believers (such as the Way Corps was alleged to produce).

Super-believers who loved the Lord Jesus (as we were supposed to be n the process of becoming, partly by emulating elders in the word) could call themselves "doulos". It practically came with your name tag.

But I think that twi was wrong.

In new testament times, doulos and kurios refer to slaves and lords, and not necessarily doulos who serve by love.

The new thing I discovered a few years ago was that Jesus purchased all those who had been in bondage. He is Lord over all the believers, regardless of how much they have learned about loving him.

And the very fact of his Lordship helps to reverse the results of the previous lordship of sin.

Jesus did not purchase "free" people. He redeemed his people (peculiar people= purchased people) who had been enslaved already.

As my new Lord and Master, Jesus is retraining me in how to treat all those that I meet. Teaching me how to bless those who curse me, how love those who don't love me.

So in this balance between the reference to me as a son, and as a slave, God my Father is using my apprenticeship to the Master Jesus to grow me up.

The teaching I heard in the way identified my old man nature as the source for sin (living through my unrenewed mind), even after I was born again.

My new understanding is that I only have one nature, my new one, but the training I received as a slave to sin in the past can sometimes guide my life.

Habits, skills, addictions of the old man were conformed to the old Lord.

Replacing the old habits with new actions inspired by my New Master will result in the retraining I need.

TWI doctrine as I understood it, stated that we as believers had two natures and struggle between two natures was inevitable.

I believe that a fresh, comprehensive apprehension of the Lordship of Jesus would allow all of us to learn how to live for God, right where we are, with Jesus himself teaching us, (we don't have to atttain to be super-believers as the result of some man-made artificial apprenticeship)

As Lord, Jesus wants to take us from carnal to spiritual.

Flesh does fight against spirit, but no greek words in the NT support the dual-NATURE theology.

-----

God Bless us every one :)

DB

Bramble: In TWI our meekness to God was shown by our submission and obedience to his leaders--if we couldn't listen to and obey them, we certainly couldn't follow God...

You said it there. Right on target.

I distinctly remember sitting in the Emporia 6th corps meeting where special guest B* Re**ard voiced for the 1st time (at least 1st time I heard it): Blind Obedience

Blind Obedience.

I was rather shocked.

The only avenue we seemed to have to apply this Blind Obedience was to fulfill every jot and tittle of whatever leader was over us.

So this way corpse environment was an artificial system of measuring our faith and obedience was just a new version of phariseeism.

All the abstract things all day long that someone in the corps would use to measure our "renewed mind".

Artificial environmental application with a view to pleasing men (and women) who were thinking they represented God.

That meeting was the beginning of the end of my desire to stay in the "corps".

I had survived the all day activites, late night teachings, and then struggling to get everything done, and still sleep a few hours, and still feeling unrighteous.

I had endured the occasional extra early morning exercise/breaking-down-punishment because somebody plssed off Craig.

But hearing blind obedience somehow cut through the brainwashing.

Shortly after, I borrowed three bucks for gas (goes pretty far in a VW beetle) from Father Forehead and was out of there.

Since then I have changed almost every major doctrinal belief I held while in the way.

-------

Today I believe that there are different semantic ways that God has documented in various metaphors that we are familiar with, the nature of our past, present and future.

Obedience is part of the new paradigm as I now perceive it.

But the Obedience is not to any other member in the body, but to the Head, Christ.

My apprenticeship as a child of a loving Father is with his son, my master, the Lord Jesus.

My area of service is everything in my life, family, friend, work, etc.

Everything in my life, family, friend, work doesn't really belong to me, since I belong to the Lord Jesus.

(A slave owned nothing since he was owned, it all belonged to the Lord.)

AS a slave of Jesus my possessions are really his, therefore, as I take care of those things, I am taking care of God's stuff and Jesus's stuff.

A slave was considered an extension of the Master's Will. So I extend the Lord's will to everything I touch as I attempt to represent my Master.

My obedience doesn't have to be manifested by kissing the a** of some would be leader, but as I lovingly do what Jesus would do to all those around me.

There are times in the New Test. docs where the viewpoint is looking at the old master vs the new master.

There are times when a "father and his children" expresses the particular relationship, such as the chastening spoken of in the book of Hebrews

There are other analogies that hilite other aspects of our new lives.

For what it's worth,

DB

Dallas Willard has lots to say about this surrender/obedience/service aspect of people's lives.

One of his most recent books is "The Great Omission".

The title is of course a play on words between the "slogan" 'The Great Commission' and people using the concept of sins of commission vs sins of omission.

The difference between believing in Jesus and actually being apprenticed to him is a central point that he works on.

"Go ye and make disciple of all nations" vs go ye and make "believers". The necessity of actually "following" Jesus and learning from him is sometimes "omitted" from Western versions of churchianity.

I heartily recomend doing some internet searches on his stuff, although at times he gets so deep in comparisons to modern and postmodern thinking that it starts to get confusing and boring.

God Bless us every one,

DB

It is heartwarming to hear you all speak of Dan.

My wife was a fan before I was. (I introduced her to Neil Young's music).

I had just been out of TWI for a few weeks when I heard "Longer" on the radio.

I thought it was the most beautiful song I had ever heard. And I also connected it with God's Love for me.

That was especially encouraging as I was leaving the group of people who had been my world for seven years.

Then I met my wife-to-be and she had all these albums.

We haven't ever had a whole lot of resources, but we did get to see Dan in concert between 7 and 8 times.

(Seen Neil a few times, too)

His last tour for Full Circle was good.

Ironically a few years back, before Greasespot, before Waydale, I saw an ex-member of Good Seed working in another band.

He was playing "Part of the Plan".

I learned about CES from him (That's another story).

Anyway Dan's talent was incredible, singing, songwriting, musicianship.

His spirituality is expressed well in a song only on his little box set, Portrait of the Artist", "Don't Lose Heart".

God Bless his family and you all.

God Bless us everyone,

DB

p.s.

Sunday morning I had started up some of his music in itunes, and thought I would check his web site, hoping to see good news.

Then I saw the new post about his passing just a couple of hours earlier.

Along with all the others,

Happy Anniversary to you Both.

What an accomplishment, for a Sock to still have it's mate,

after three and a half decades,

I will always remember you as that young couple at the Rock,

gracefully looking for sponsors for the corps.

--

God Bless You and your sweet wife,

DB

howdy folks here at the new home for the Spot-O-Grease.

The topic of suffering was not one we talked about alot in TWI.

In the years since I stopped attending their stuff I have spent a lot of time studying suffering and living through suffering.

One of the biggest impediments to getting a better grip on it (from my perspective NOW) were the methods used by TWI in their study of the scriptures.

IMHO, TWI got off on error-prone tangents when they "analyzed" the "tree" while remaining unlearned, ignorant or in flat-out denial of the surrounding "forest".

Studying the context of a set of verses in light of the SUBJECT is hard to do when there are preconcieved notions from out-of-context word studies.

The "context of suffering" has to be grasped as well as all the little word studies.

-----

Early on in the history of this thread Rachel made some points that I think need reconsidering.

The book of Hebrews, as well as other NT literature, does talk a lot about suffering and enduring in the context of learning and instruction.

Jesus learned obedience by the things which he endured.

Jesus obviously had no personal sins or guilt to "justify" his sufferings.

Jesus is an example of a son learning from his Father.

Jesis is an example of a slave obeying his master.

"Not my will, but your will" he said.

A slave was considered an extension of his Lord's WILL.

Jesus humbled himself and took upon himself the form of a servant.

Obedient through his whole life including the suffering before and during the Cross.

Now that Jesus has been made Lord, and we accept and confess him as Lord,

We are now the slaves being instructed to be instruments of our Lord's WILL.

A slave was usually instructed in specific tasks and vocations.

As the Body of Christ fulfills the purpose of representing Christ, who represents God,

the unity of Christ is being expressed throughout the VARIETY in the members of the one body of Christ.

Every great design will express unity as well as variety.

God's great design for the ages includes each one of us (VARIETY) possessing the life of Jesus (UNITY) but expressing it in our own lives as we are taught by our new Master Jesus.

Our new Master will teach us.

The learning process of a child may include elements of reproof and punishment.

Chastisement and instruction are tied together.

The perfecting of the saints is one of the goals.

Saintliness is a qualification for more instruction not less.

No one "saint" will be totally Christlike before we see him as he is, so we are all in need of instruction up until the very last moment.

However I do not think that God or Jesus send the oppression or the source of the suffering.

But God and Jesus do send the solutions, the skill to survive and respond.

Jeus had to perfect this before God could present it to us.

The instruction is learned as we take an actrive spiritual part in the way we respond to any adversity.

We are responsible for our actions taken in response, (response is part of the word response-ability [sic])

to all adverse situations.

Some adversity comes to one member of the body through another member of the body.

Some adversity comes from "non-believers".

Some adversity comes from life and nature and hurricanes and gravity, etc.

I don't believe God "sends" the adverse situation.

I do believe that he wants to instruct us in every single adverse (or pleasant) situation through his Son.

God Bless us every one,

Darrell

Regarding the Queen song "Bohemian Rhapsody":

A few months ago I was listening to National Public Radio. The particular show was "The World" I think.

They did a story about the surprising popularity of Queen's music in the Middle East.

I think that it was most probably Iran (slightly possibly Iraq, I sound like Alan jackson in another song).

NPR and The World usually do their stories with reporters and real people "on location".

Freddie Mercury was originally from Iran (Iraq?) and that is the big reason Queen's music is popular. Local boy did good kind of thing, despite the gay issue with Freddie.

Anyway on that show they talked about the song, and kind of took it apart and translated the words.

I don't remember the specifics, but the interpretation seemed very much along the lines of what someone else posted about the tragic situation the protagonist in the song was enduring.

I do remember feeling surpried and relieved that it was not as "dark" as some have suggested.

Someone could probably do a google search on NPR's website to see if there is a transcript.

God Bless you all as, well as Wayne and Garth,

(heads rocking, hair flying)

Darrell

Wow. Cool,

Thanks to all who posted.

It will be interesting to see how this stuff develops.

I am fascinated by the details of ancient Greek drama, including stagecraft as well as the choragic competition.

Darrell Bailey, a humble mathetes / doulos of didaskolos / kurious Jesou Christou.

. . . and if I "copy" the original sin by sinning in my life, thereby passing it off as my own sin ...

. . . am I guilty of plagiarism ?

:)-->, :)-->

Howdy folks. This has turned into quite an interesting thread.

This is my first post on this thread.

--

First of all I suggest that everyone on both "sides" try to remain respectful, practice patience with each other, and let's look for a solution to one of the major problems (with TWI) revealed in this thread:

PEOPLE who represent/understand God,Jesus,Holy Spirit and or claim to represent/understand God,Jesus,Holy Spirit,

SOME OF THESE same PEOPLE are often found to be just as unwilling or unable to "Walk by the spirit instead of the flesh" as those who they would instruct or lead.

SOME OF THESE same PEOPLE are often found to be

just as imprisoned by sins, addictions, prejudices as anybody else.

------

In my seven years in twi (1972-1979) I never saw or heard any really usable or practical teaching in how to walk by the spirit.

I took "Renewed Mind" seminar many times.

I read and reread Romans especially those middle "chapters" discussing the old/new man.

I took the Advanced class to learn about walking by the spirit, but that did not dis-arm my fleshly old man.

I think that the largest failure in twi teaching was in this category.

"Christ in you" was a commonly used epression but I never found it to have any practical or beneficial presence in twi, unless you believed their theology of "move the word,move the word,move the word,move the word,"

Spirituality and christian maturity came to be measured by your obedience, fellowship and knowledge of their own "ministy" and it's traditions and exclusionary values.

---

I have divested myself of 95-99 % of what TWI had to say because I have found it doctrinally and practically unsound.

I moved away from twi doctrine first (because I knew no one who really was being freed from their old man), before I found out about the rampant corruption among the "teachers".

----

If the core (corps) leadership did not know how to "renew their minds" (The leadership was teaching "empty" doctrine about our life in Christ) and the followers were not growing in their faith, then where is that "baby" that everyone is referring to in the bathwater?

--

I would ask those who still carry twi doctrines in their brain or heart to share how they really help them in their life now.

--

Once again let's all try to remember that each one of our experiences in twi was unique;

and

that how we depart from fellowshipping , and depart from their specific doctrines is unique also.

What we can possibly do as a group is humanely discuss and listen without namecallling and stuff and glean some purpose out of this whole thing we invested so much of ourselves in.

God Bless,

Darrell

Hi George,

I am a long time lurker, (not really but I don't post as nearly much as I read), and first time responder to one of your posts.

I know from your past posting that you would probably put yourself at the atheistic/agnostic

end of the ex-twi spectrum.

I myself would place myself at the "don't believe that TWI had hardly anything that was both accurate AND unique"

I studied my way out of the way. My studies since then have led me to what I consider to be a more mature version of Christianity.

----

I recently read part of a new book entitled "Slave". It is an autobiography of a young African girl who lost her family to the murdering,ravaging raid of modern day slave traders.

Before her capture she had also endured the female "circumcision" you mention. I have seen TV documentaries, as well as an episode of "Nip/Tuck" that dealt with the crime of female mutilation called circumcision.

If the term that I have heard is what you are referring to (And I am pretty sure it is) then I really don't think that it is in the same category as male circumcision.

Do you really think that the two are equal?

Traditional male circumcision removes non-essential skin. The resulting status of the organ (as far as I know) to be effective for it's purposes to urinate, deliver seed, and provide pleasure back to the brain are not impaired by the circumcision.

The female process removes something designed to stay there and provide pleasure to the brain, it also greatly reduces the size of the vagina (for the benefit of the husband to be) which makes non-sexual use of the vagina abnormally painful or uncomfortable.

---

So, George do you really think a discussion of Abrahamic circumcision invites the building of a straw man (woman in this case) argument?

I do respect your opinion and your intelligence.

I have seen both in your posts.

Maybe you are wanting to cut (pun intended) to the issue of ancient patriarchal cultures and how they dictated everything, with fairness to few.

Looking forward to your response,

Darrell

Vertical Limit:

Very interesting!

Spirit, breath, face, we are mostly water plus occasional hot air.

There is another doctrinal thread about circumcision to which I am going to be making some comments.

One of them is about the comparison between:

the seal of Abraham's righteousness of faith being represented by the symbol of circumcision

and

the believers in the New Testament (Ephesians 1)

who after hearing the word of truth, trusting

and having the seal of the holy spirit as a token.

"in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy spirit of promise,

which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchases possession unto the praise of his glory"

--

Abraham believes: receives seal of righteousnes

Child of Abraham believes: receives a seal, the holy spirit.

The references to Jesus being the baptizer in the Holy Spirit by John the baptizer in water unto repentance in the gospels are amazing in how they fit with references in the Church epistles. (more on that later)

---

I entertain the possibility that spirit and software are symbolically valueable to people today.

I mean think about it this way:

both (spirit and software code) are really

invisible to our senses, until they are presented in some form of inter-FACE.

Software is simply a bunch of words.

While holy spirit appears in one form as "the Word"

Both need (at some times for specific purposes) some type hardware in order to be experienced or used in "the real world"

Computing and digital devices provide access to communication and storage of invisible powerful words collected into beneficial packages of "words" that we call "programs"

While the earthen vessels we live in allow the (spirit, soul and body) composite objects of mankind represented in many,many individual instances to interact and exist.

___

Thanks for listening,

More Later

Darrell

sky4it:

You are not alone in wondering about this thing called circumcision.

Through the years I have wondered about the oddness (is that a word) of that particular process (circumcision) and it's products and byproducts physically, as well as the symbolic message which God intended to convey.

Maybe it is a guy thing to wonder about that part of our anatomy being such a big (no pun intended) topic throughout the New Testament.

Sky4it, The most interesting thing is that in the last few days I experienced some new thoughts about the subject of circumcision as well as baptism.

It is interesting how the two of us are looking into the matter at the same time.

---

Rachel:

Before I go into my theological opinion of the subject (which I will do in a later post)

of this thread, I feel strongly that the tone and attitude that I perceive behind the following words in your post needs to be addressed:

quote begin:

posted August 15, 2004 02:35    

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gee Sky...You dont read the Book much, do you?

----

another quote:

and in the NT you see that circumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God. I wonder is that what it really means, just because it says it...I

----

another quote:

Maybe a little more study without the old wine in our minds would be appropiate.

----

quote end

Rachel, your words seem very condescending.

Was that your intention?

---

Darrell

Oops. It is not obvious who "Pat and Christine" are. Pat was John's wife at the time and Christine is his daughter.

I have more to say but my access to posting is limited.

Darrell

More to come . . . is here

(JT: there is a related thread "TopTenAwesomeTruths from TWI" which I started.

It is part of the more to come as well as this post right here.)

I spent the summer of 1972 going to every Sunday night meeting. I bought just about every book from from the "book table" after the meeting.

For a while there were several carloads of us folks from south of Indy driving up.

I made plans to go this "Rock Of Ages" deal.

I also heard that this Victor Paul Wierwille guy was coming to town.

I was so impressed with John Lynn's teaching that I wasn't at all interested in hearing VPW.

He sounded like an old codger and I didn't think anyone could teach as good as John.

I planned on taking this PFAL class at a family camp right after the Rock.

Before the class a guy from the fellowships up north was visiting us down south and I asked to be led into speaking in tongues, and I was and did.

The Rock was awesome, The PFAL class camp was neat. It was a film class with lots of people and camp stuff. I still have a picture of our cabins. I have a picture of Pat and Christine (Christine was about 12 years old at the time)

walking back to the cabin from the pool.

After the class we started two twigs on the Southside.

----

Time marched on . . .

----

Years later after having taken the advanced class, gone WOW ambassador (the first year that there were 1,000 ambassadors), been apprentice 6th corps, and spent six months in residence as SixthCorps in Kansas, then deciding that the Corps program was not what I wanted to do, I bummed $5 in gas money from LCM, filled up my VW bug and headed home.

More time passed and my concerns about the way were increasing, but I still accepted all the "outer" doctrines.

But the hint of differing doctrines at higher levels and inner circles was too strong to mistake.

Besides hearing things at Kansas in 75-76,

Now (77-78 ? I think) I was hearing copies of teachings to the Indiana fellowlaborers (Statewide mini-corps were all the rage around this time).

The same John Lynn who so impressed me years before could be heard (these tapes were probably made in 75-77) saying things like,

" I hope I never have to shoot someone, but (the inference was there could be a time when "God" would need twi faithful to do this) but what is natural man but just 170 pounds of ground beef!"

Whew. That doesn't sound like the love of God!

Shooting people. Considering people as nothing more than animals.

More to come again . . .

Darrell

P.S. Sky4it,

The way used to offer a class during their summer school (in addition to the advanced class) called "The Taberncale".

I never took the class but from the description of the class I know it was about Hebrews and the types in the Old Testament.

After I stopped fellowshipping with the twi I discovered several well-known authors (to Christians outside the way) with gobs of fantastic examples of types in the O.T.

One is called "Portraits of Christ in Genesis".

Darrell

saw

Thanks to all who have posted.

I appreciate hearing from everyone.

Galen, I find that very interesting about you and your wife discovering very similar things in your separate studies. And the churches you mention with five crosses are fascinating.

I have done a lot of research into the KJV period's definitions for lots of words related to Master, Lord, apprentice, servant, etc.

As well as the mystery plays of old.

I see indications from that research that there may indeed have been a much more robust understanding of Spiritual things that can be found in the words and works of that time, yet the theology that prompted them may have been lost to us.

Once again, God Bless You all.

Darrell

To Shellon:

Q: Shellon:

The responses received thus far are not what you were hoping for?

A: Darrell

My hope in starting this post is to begin the process here at Greasespot of QUANTIFYING and QUALIFYING what anyone considers to be fruitful lessons successfully learned via TWI/ex TWI offshoots that carry "the good" from TWI and not the bad.

Much of the discussion here that I look at revolves around differing opinions of former twi'ers on how much "fish" and how much "bones" that person has to deal with.

In my personal story, over the years, as I studied I gradually moved away from twi doctrines as well as twi's approach to studying the bible.

I do not claim that my experience, or my conclusions are any better or worse, or more valid, than any one elses.

I do not think that there is only one path for ex-way people to take.

In all sincerity, it has been so long since I conversed with people familiar with twi vocab, and my memory is such that I might not remember things from last week let alone 25 years ago.

I maybe using more of the twi-side of my brain than I amaware of. ?? Who knows?

In addition to my story, I wanted, and am getting more specific posts where people are listing few positive "truths" than posts of specific things that benefit them now.

Would you like to comment on the lessons you learned in TWI that you feel are still benefiting you?

To Galen:

Q: Galen:

Why would they become in-valid if they can be found in some other ministry?

A: I never said they were invalid.

John Lynn said that there are awesome truths not known for centuries.

He, as well as most of the others who perceive they have enough fish after spitting out the bones, have stated that these truths were not known for centuries outside of TWI.

If it is true that there are truths not known for centuries as well as other places in the present culture, then they would be AWESOME.

I am just attempting to start a legit dialogue over what lessons learned in twi that fit the criteria as described by the most well known and highly placed officers of TWI, John Lynn.

Darrell