shazdancer

On 3/17/2020 at 5:01 AM, Human without the bean said:

Now here is a question.  Why did it take so many years 10 or 15 or 20 years to wake up to VP Wierwille's mind-washing?  He wasn't a particularly good looking man.  He wasn't a really good orator was he?  He stole what other people said and pawned it off as his own without having anything original of his own to say.  But why did it take so long to wake up?

We grew up. In any group, you will get a few who will idolize the leader, no matter what he says or does. But remember, the heyday of TWI was when it was full of kids who arrested their adolescence and maturation to follow the MOG. For me at least, the closer I got to the leaders, and as time passed, the more I could see the hypocrisy both in doctrine and in behavior. 

Lifted, I was in the 6th Family Corps, 1979-80. Husband and I only did the one in-res year, by choice. Within a couple of years after that, we were out. I want to say how sorry I am that you were assaulted and that we were not aware about how much terrible stuff like that was going on. Had I known, we would have been out that much sooner, I suppose, because I would have said something.

That year, I did quietly speak up to the children's fellowship leader over how I saw a mother hit her child repeatedly with a spoon while she reviewed her son's homework. So, while I didn't have the guts back then to stand up in a meeting and blast everybody, I did at least have the guts to say something. But while Wierwille was busy trying to show us how we didn't have a lot of spiritual understanding, we were missing the very real abuse of power and lack of pastoral care right in front of our noses, and for that I am very sorry.

I will say that, at least in that Family Corps, there was no wide-spread knowledge about the sexual nonsense going on. I certainly didn't know, and my exhusband was shocked when he heard about it. And I think I know why. Many Family Corps people were older than Wierwille's "keeds" at Emporia, and he was desperate for the admiration and money that could come from the professional world. Moreover, he knew what he was doing was wrong, justifications notwithstanding. More mature adults wouldn't have put up with it.This was lockbox stuff, not because others couldn't "handle it" as he said, but because he knew it was wrong and it would have ended his whole organization, had it gotten out.

Here's a drive by from Shaz [waves hi]:

It is all about the money. If they are worth $68M, that's over a million and a half to play with every year. Income from the current group is small potatoes but it doesn't matter. Work the Corps and staff like slaves, keep "research" or other services down to a minimum, and live off the dividends in perpetuity. The revs "on the field" are just ....ed because they aren't getting some of this largess and they aren't getting much adulation, either. Not to mention a lot of their buddies have left. Rosalie stops anything that smacks of upsetting the status quo because it might interfere with the gravy train. She's no Bill Gates, but it's enough to live on and she gets free housekeeping. All is fine as long as the operation stays small. No more World Over the World nonsense. No more new research. Just keep everyone in line, and dump anyone who threatens otherwise.

Enjoy some excerpts here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yabmXuDN5Zg

I was out of TWI by 1985, or I might have been in this. Definitely dodged a bullet there. A couple of random thoughts for this thread:

• the lead dancer/choreographer had already put together a version of AOS back in 1979-80 with a different male lead. Backstage after the performance, I recall Craig asking the choreographer if "we" invented the flexed foot! No one more surprised than I was to later learn that Craig became the lead. Perhaps he thought he was cementing his position as a ministry rockstar.
• about this same time, asking if I could join Way Prod. as a dancer, I was asked if I knew anything about clogging, because VPW wanted cloggers (**sigh**)
• AOL was a production of amateur dancers with a lot of money thrown at stage sets and lighting. I give the choreographer credit for trying to fulfill LCM's larger vision with the cast she had, but she just didn't have the cast that could work at that level. The choreographer carefully put the better dancers in front of each group of devil spirits to give them someone to follow, but the longer they danced, the weaker it all got.
• Ditto the music. Maybe Socks can weigh in, but it seems to me that most of the professional-level talent was gone or going by then. The musical score is pretty repetitive and simplistic, nothing for John Williams or Leonard Bernstein to worry about. But there was also the problem that Wierwille wasn't much for complex music that didn't feature "rightly-divided" lyrics front and center, so there may have been a lot of pressure on the composer to not go too far afield. (Side note -- does anyone have any evidence, other than VPW's say-so, that he actually played an instrument? When he would warble with the singers or walk around snapping his fingers off the beat, it sure didn't look like it.)
• back when I first saw the video production, I was struck by how much the demons were glorified, both in having the better dancers doing those parts and in the length of time they were onstage. Dancers simulating sex seemed unnecessary, but giving HQ's fixation on all things sexual it is not much of a surprise, I guess. It was a part of the doctrine, this fixation on the devil, that I didn't buy even when I was in. What happened to "greater is he that is in you...?"

I found the parts of me that were vulnerable to falling into abusive relationships, and the parts of me I wanted to keep. Sometimes they are the same thing. But at least now I can forgive myself and move on from abuse, instead of endlessly trying to "believe better."

Part one aired last night where I live. Fascinating stuff, with more than a little commonality with TWI on certain issues.

Hi Jim. I don't often swing by the 'Spot these days, but I did see this post and so I watched the program online. I have met the woman who left the church in the film. She and her husband have a good life together. She has written 2 books about her experience, and she helps others who want to leave the Amish church. She is very respectful of those who want to remain in, but it just wasn't for her. She craved education and choice, two things that are not readily available to Amish young adults, especially not to women. She also experienced abuse from family members.

One of the difficulties in the Amish community, like TWI, is that there are not enough checks and balances on behavior. If the church elders are corrupt, there is no one to stop them. The inequality between all men and all women (not just husbands and wives) is also a problem. If a woman complains, she tends to be blamed. Like the Amish, TWI also tried to control its members (mostly those more committeed, such as WOWs and Corps) by restricting their behaviors, but without having them contained on a campus, it was largely impossible.

Every society tries to regulate its own to the betterment of the society. Religious groups add the need to be more attuned to things of the spirit by their behavior. But it is sad when societies are constructed to benefit only a subset of the group at the expense of the rest. All people are fallible, including members of the Amish, or TWI, or any other group. But when there is no just way of dealing with evil acts, there is problem at the heart of that society.

According to their nonprofit status, "donors" to PFAL should only have been able to deduct the portion of the donation that was beyond the cost of materials. When I took PFAL, the cost was $65, roughly the retail price of the books and syllabus, so it should not have been advertised as a donation or tax deductible. Ooops.

It Got Worse.

During the Martindale era (error) near-abouts 1996-1998......full-time field corps HAD TO SUBMIT WEEKLY SCHEDULES IN 15-MINUTE SLOT FRAMES.

Do you know what its like to "plan" your life in advance in 15-minute time slots, projecting how your upcoming week is going to unfold.....

and then, re-submit how it changed to throw you off kilter.

Then, Sky, maybe you'll get a kick out of this. We had graduated as Recognized Corps (1 year in-res), but were sent to Phoenix instead of a staff assignment because hubby was drinking and there was a Limb leader going there who would undershepherd him. The guy who was supposed to help him refused to, and only lasted 6 months. So we basically had zero help, or even supervision. Two Limb leaders later, I get called in to meet with him -- I suppose he was trying to get a handle on what kind of leadership types he had.

He wanted me to fill out a set of those 15-minute schedules. I looked at them, then handed them back to him and refused, saying I was Recognized Corps and not required to do that kind of thing. He said something like "Dr. didn't really want there to be a Recognized Corps," but I just said that was our understanding when I went in. I tried to be polite, but I also had no interest in doing something so inane with someone who didn't even know me.

Silly.

And thoughts for the pastors and caretakers and counselors, the professionals who are working through their own shock and grief while they help others.

If you would like to give:

Newtown Youth and Family Services

15 Berkshire Rd.

Sandy Hook, CT 06482

Books Heal Hearts Fund

Cyrenius H. Booth Library

25 Main Street

Newtown, CT 06470

Sandy Hook School Support Fund

c/o Newtown Savings Bank

39 Main Street, Newtown CT 06470

Newtown Rotary, Sandy Hook School Fund

PO Box 263

Newtown, CT 06482

And NYT's Ron Lieber suggested buying the community of Newtown, CT some breakfast, lunch or dinner.

You can call King's Breakfast & Lunch at 203-426-6881 or call My Place Pizza at 203-270-7061

We have a friend who was in a very similar situation, her hubby found a cult/church, she went along and finally it became too much for her, he cheated, she left. Many of these ultra strict cults will find a way to weave a license for sexual sin into their belief system. She had a church to return to and a built in support system with family, but it is still really hard on her. I read some of her FB posts and my heart breaks.

I don't know how to counsel someone in that situation. Pregnant and vulnerable, or with small children and vulnerable......what do you say? Leave your husband or stay and suck it up and pray?

This is why I hate religiosity. It always seems to end in heartache.

Once I realized that my marriage was based on his false pretenses (he never intended to love like Christ loved the church, Gal. 5), and once I realized that God didn't call anyone to an abusive marriage, but to one of peace (I Cor. 7:15), I had no religious qualms about getting out of the marriage. It wasn't easy, but it was one of the smartest choices I ever made. The alcoholic ex-husband continued to drink, continued to abuse, and emotionally destroyed the next person he married (according to her daughter). He didn't destroy me or my kids.

The additional pressure with being in a fundamentalist Christian group is that a woman leaving her marriage is seen as sinning against God. "Husband is head of the wife" and all that. Mentally and emotionally, it is also difficult if all her friends and confidants are in the church. No one to give perspective, no examples of women with successful, happy, and peaceful lives outside of the belief system she is surrounded by.

PM'ed you. -- Shaz

....The first topic they did was about the election statistic that 50% of catholics nationwide voted for Obama. The female DJ is catholic. She thought it was OK because catholics aren't robots. The male DJ says, "but the church is suing the president over mandated birth control and how can a true catholic vote for Obama?" They wanted opinions from callers. St. Louis has a lot of catholics btw.

So I called. I told the screener what I wanted to say, he asked my name and said please hold. I'd done this before on KMOX at all hours. Sometimes you get through; sometimes you don't, but if you do get through you always have to wait at least several minutes. Not even 5 seconds later the male DJ says, "Hello, John, you're on KMOX!" I said hello just to make sure it wasn't someone else named John. Then I commented that, IMO, religion isn't just a spiritual outlet, it's a social outlet as well. If people feel comfortable socially in any religion, then they may not feel like they have to agree 100% with what the religion is trying to promote.

Both DJs said I made a good point. They made more comments and wanted to know if other callers agreed or disagreed. I was working (cleaning windows) and I didn't get to listen much longer, but this is where twi comes in.

How many times during the last few years in twi did I hear, "Hey! This is NOT a social hour!" Everything humans do together is social, isn't it ? Not just religion. If it isn't, then we ARE all robots. In twi we heard constantly that other churches, especially the catholic church, were oppressive and heavy handed. Well, let's see. This kind of situation sounds like it might tempt some clergy to want to stress commitment, but I, personally, am curious. Any catholics here getting any fallout from this? It can't be as bad as twi...can it???

John, perhaps the question here is "what is a 'true believer?'" For one example, in the Catholic religion, most American Catholics have long since adopted the use of birth control other than the rhythm method, but would still call themselves Catholic. Every doctrinal point does not define them, but at the core, they consider themselves Catholic. Rome might wish they were more devout, but basically they are happy to have the flock show up at Mass once in awhile and throw a buck in the plate. The same goes for most other religions. Not every Mormon wife wears religious undergarments, not every Baptist believes every non-Christian goes to hell, and so on.

TWI, on the other hand, became much more insistent that their followers adopt every bit of the dogma, even when the articles of faith seemed to change from month to month during the Craig years. (Original sin, tithing, allegiance to the MOG, and debt come to mind.) Worse, the organizational structure seemed to support ratting out anyone who did not conform, and those who were ratted on were kicked out, sometimes without so much as a shred of evidence.

During the Weirwille years, I knew of plenty of believers who didn't buy every piece of the doctrine. Heck, I didn't, either. But I was willing (for a time) to stay with the organization, because overall, where else was I going to go where anything close to this doctrine was preached? So I and many others stayed, hoping to make changes from within, or to reason with people one at a time.

So the basic difference, socially, between TWI and other religions is one of tolerance. I find it interesting that the "kinder, gentler" TWI kicked in when it was clear that a rigid stance threatened to destroy the organization. Can't have that -- too many people on the payroll.

I actually agree with johniam in part (don't faint, John ;) ). If you were in a Twig back in Wierwille's day, you were pretty much left alone. Even WOW Ambassadors and Fellow Laborers weren't controlled much at first. But the closer you got to the MOG, the more cult-like it became. At first, there were only a few Corps grads or clergy running things, so their impact on Joe Believer was minimal. Too many people, too few dictators. But as more and more "leaders" moved out from root locales, they brought with them what they thought was the right way to run things, which was to emulate the micromanaging MOG.

What some might characterize as "blurring the lines".......I see as CONNECTING THE DOTS.

The scriptures give us a vast array of wrestling against principalities, against powers, against rulers of darkness.

Yes, twi was a subculture of oppressiveness and isolation......but these structures are found far and wide.

During twi's apex, in 1984........nearly 190 clergy were assigned to hq. WHY?

Is the concentration of authority and power infinitely essential for wrestling the liberties away from the individual?

If wierwille was truly invested in "word over the world"......why the conglomeration of clergy at hq under wierwille's watch?

Was twi a microcosm of "principalities, powers and rulers of darkness" that is seen the world over?

The financial powers? The business world? The Hollywood insiders? The fashion world? The media monopolies?

And, no.......I realize that such broadstrokes could never be addressed in a book without seeming to be "all over the place"

but its also clear that Jesus warned to beware of the leaven of Pharisees and Herod. The bandwidth of beware is NOT

compartmentalized to a Nazarene subculture.

Can one's story focus on one's life experiences AND carry the message of an OVER-riding element than encompasses all?

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts ABSOLUTELY. If a subculture of authoritarian power leads to diminished individual liberty,

what happens if the macrocosm of society falls into diminished and suppressed liberties?

Sky, if you tell the story of the microcosm well, people will understand that it stands for the macrocosm. No need to shove a moral down people's throats. :)

Why were 190 clergy assigned to HQ? IMHO, because they should have been the most loyal to Wierwille, so he was hoping to have better control over his staff -- he wanted yes-men, not people with actual needs. (Which is why he shut down the Senior Corps.) If he'd played it right, he would have had minions to care for him and do his bidding in his old age even if he wasn't the board president anymore. Remember, narcissists tend to be lazy.

What he didn't count on was that clergy actually thought of themselves as leaders, able to make decisions and get "revelation" on their own, from Craig on down. He also didn't realize that the top clergy didn't like him much. No surprise -- he was demanding, insulting, capricious, a drunk, and an adulterer. No wonder he went off to Gartmore when it became apparent that he couldn't control the mess at home, a mess of his own making.

How are you and your children today? I could answer that question as well..for me and my children far better off..

but still.. for a brief moment, I saw everything in God's creation melt into the light..

I've had an interesting life, no doubt about it, some of it very rough. Did the dance thing for over 25 years, hard work but rewarding. Got to where the body wouldn't let me do that anymore, so went to grad school and am 8 years into my second career, doing well. Left the drinker on "the field" where they sent us, later married another TWI-er who was messed up (I just can't pick 'em), divorced him , too. Raised my kids alone. They are grown up now and are AWESOME, and smart, funny, well-liked, and kind.

No question, life is so much better out of TWI. I met some very good people, and I met some jerks. Now, I got out in '85-ish, so I wasn't "in" during the Craig years. (I was like, "WHO is the new prez? You're kidding! Seriously?") So I'm talkin' about TWI under Wierwille. LIFE IS BETTER OUT -- MUCH, MUCH BETTER. And my kids are reaping the benefits of being raised mostly out. They are not tied to having to live up to the whim of a cornfield preacher in Ohio or his legacy.

Preacher, you may be wrong about the Berne Convention and copyright, where it pertains to PFAL. Wierwille's words were put into fixed form in the Power for Abundant Living book, which certainly was legally copyrighted. By making a derivative work out of his words (internet recording) and distributing it widely (over the internet), you would be in violation of copyright, and the fair use argument would not apply, as you would be inhibiting TWI from making money from his words now or in the future by plastering them all over the internet.

And weren't all copies of PFAL owned by TWI, not sold or given away? So aren't you publishing a stolen tape? Oopsie.

Newlife, a nice explanation of what AA is, and how some people "get" the program and others don't. An active alcoholic is completely absorbed by drinking. Frank, you said it well when you talked about being changed at the moment you uncorked the bottle. I used to say that my ex could drink me under the table, but I would still be the same, and he would be different from the first drink. His own brother called him Jekyl and Hyde.

Twinky, I think that's really the point of AA, to break into the addicted personality, which is completely self-absorbed with the addiction, and turn the person to someone/something greater. The first step in AA is for the addicted drinker to admit powerlessness over alcohol, because up to that point the drinker was trying to make it somehow possible to continue drinking and have it be okay. Everything was serving alcohol.

The pure physical addiction of an alcoholic who is ingesting a lot of booze can kill a person who quits cold, so I would not recommend that such a person just stop alone. But recovered alcoholics are usually aware and know what to ask, so a drunk who stumbles into a meeting is not apt to die. Twinks, you might like to attend what is called an "open meeting," where newbies and nonalcoholics can get a sense of what a meeting is like, ask questions, and get some literature to read. I hope it helps.

I guess there was ever only room for one alcoholic at HQ - Wierwille.

Fer sure, OldSkool. Kinda hypocritical, wasn't it? But I should have thanked him. Instead of thinking that TWI was a great ministry with a few overly-zealous types in it, I learned that it stank from the top down.

"I received an answer from Mr. Wierwille, self-proclaimed "father in the Word." He scrawled in the margins of my letter that I was "bitter."

Interesting how they always resort to name calling and negative labels as a control. If we had been a band of PIRATES rather than good hearted souls, this tactic would have never worked!

I agree. And since I knew my own heart, I knew right away that Wierwille wasn't full of "heavy revvy," like he wanted us all to think he was. He was full of something else.

You suddenly woke up, and everything you believed was, just, plain, WRONG..

"I would be very angry" was one reply..

I was very angry, but not at first....

My husband got a job right after our Recognized Family Corps year as a chef (his trade), and I was refused a place in the Way Productions dance group (my trade). I sucked it up.

My husband got kicked out of working at HQ when he revealed he was still an active alcoholic. I got kicked out with him, though I had done nothing wrong. In the middle of the night, without my input (and my input was later refused), we were "assigned" as far from my family as we could possibly get. My parents hardly got to see their first grandchild. I sucked it up and went.

The leader who was supposed to help my husband refused to help him. Instead, I was left with a sometimes violent man. I sucked it up, and wrote a letter to the "man of God," who had written me (and everyone else) to ask why I hadn't gone to the Rock and Corps Week that year, and how had he failed me? I told him how.

I received an answer from Mr. Wierwille, self-proclaimed "father in the Word." He scrawled in the margins of my letter that I was "bitter." THEN, I got angry. I knew I wasn't bitter, I knew I had done everything he had told me to do, and done it willingly. He had broken his word to get my husband help, and had abandoned me and my young children.

I had always promised myself that if TWI stopped standing for the Word, I would stop standing for TWI. (It was much later, and thanks to WayDale and Greasespot, that I learned TWI was never about the Word of God.) The time had come, after 12 years of faithful service, and I left.

I will admit that it took still more years to separate the wheat from the chaff of TWI in my life, but I never second guessed my decision to leave. I should have made it sooner.

Then......she admitted that SHE DOESN'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS AT HQ.

Rosalie and 'those people' do NOT affect her life.

Besides, she rarily goes to hq anyway and that's fine with her.

Right now, she enjoys her local fellowship coordinator and his teachings.

Her divorce (involving another innie) is over....and she's moving on.

I've heard this before....many times actually. Whenever I'm asked to explain my reasons for leaving twi

and specify details that are undeniably irrefutable, the innie will distance herself/himself from it

and claim LOCAL LEADERSHIP IS WHAT MATTERS.

Simple question, then: who is your money supporting?

AA was based on a Christian organization, the Oxford Group. The founders of AA backed off of the references to God, and moved to referring to a "higher power," in an attempt to not make God a stumbling block to sobriety. So yes, they left the door open for someone to "get the program," which for many AAers meant coming to God through Christ. (To some, the higher power meant believing in the strength of the AA group or some other concept.)

But what I find sad is that TWI has a history, not of helping people with a drinking problem to overcome it, but of kicking them to the curb and telling everyone else that alcoholics are possessed and should believe bigger. This very thing happened to my first husband, who drank, and me with him, who did not. So much for the loving care that is the true essence of Christianity.

"I'm never doing corn mazes again!"

I met a guy who served on a town committee. He rode a horse into downtown to a photo opportunity, a local Humane Society animal adoption day. He wore all black, a big cowboy hat, boots, and a badge.

In Connecticut.

He told bystanders that he was a sheriff's deputy, but under further questioning, he admitted that a cop gave him the badge to play with because he asked for one. Then he got off the horse, and I noticed he was trying to make up for his small stature with his swagger. He was telling me all about how he worked with troubled teens, sometimes having them live with him while he straightened them out.

If that man wasn't abusing boys, I'll eat his cowboy hat. And organizations working with kids like that need to do psych screens of its volunteers and employees.

Shaz

You got it, Twinky. I have no particular beef with chiropractic or naturopathy, but I see room in this particular individual's practice for him to say that something is wrong with the patient's emotions if the treatment isn't working. Smacks of "right believing" too much for my taste.

Rejoice, my apologies for derailing the thread. It just reminded me of this other guy, who used to include his TWI affiliation, and still hints at using TWI beliefs in his practice. One could also speak to his selling his own compounds to his patients (conflict of interest), shying away from antibiotics (even integrative medical practitioners use antibiotics for Lyme), and avoiding Herxheimer reactions (they often indicate that the therapy is working). Sadly, late-stage Lyme patients are so desperate for doctors who know anything about this illness, that people go to him. I hope he gets them well, not just coming back.

Shaz