DrtyDzn

Remember that God is outside of time. Time is part of the creation. Without matter and energy, time does not exist. So what was BEFORE creation cannot be thought of in terms of time. God just was, time didn't pass, eternity can't be measured.

The existence of evil in the face of a loving God can only be explained as a necessary entity for a greater good. Like two sides of a coin, both are necessary to make a distinction between the two. Could love be experienced without evil? Could God have done it a different way, perhaps, but we must trust that this is the best way. No pain no gain. To suffer the existence of evil now is necessary to realize the glorification later.

Jerry

note: nothing i have written here is the truth. and none of the words i used are sufficient.

...such is the nature of language.

More accurately I'd say nothing you have written is The Whole Truth. Words may be inadequate, but it doesn't make everything a lie.

Jerry

Noah and sons would not have had to store meat for the carnivores on the ark. They could have just scooped a few floating carcasses from the water when it was feeding time.

Now after the ark landed, the herbivores may have had a harder time finding live vegetation among all the stinking rotting foliage that had been under water for 40 days.

The whole scenario is only plausible if you believe in the supernatural, which has no place in science, or does it?

Jerry

All this going on without any seeming concious direction. All this seems to be happening automatically. If man built something like this, it would need a computer chip to control.

Jerry

The baptism of fire. As promised.

The baptism of fire would be a cleansing.But would it be before or after a harvest? Or a cleansing of the harvest?

Jerry

a man seed of spirit either grows to the points it breaks out of the seed or its dies in the shell

I still don't see how an incorruptible seed can die in the shell. Sounds like the ultimate corruption.

Jerry

If the later rain was a baptism that occured on Pentecost, wouldn't it be likely that there is a former rain coming as a baptism in the fall? Would this baptism be different from the latter rain baptism?

ex10, I guess living in a cold climate prevented me of realizing there are winter crops too in some areas. Two harvests in a year are foreign to me.

Jerry

The former rain fell at Pentecost I would suggest, and the latter at the second coming or immediately prior thereto.

The season of spring when Pentecost is celebrated would seem to coincide with the latter rain, not the former.

If the latter rain prepared the soil for summer growing season, what did the former rain prepare for, the coming winter?

Jerry

Hope this doesn't get confusing.

I want to add a little tidbit I heard in fellowship once, back in 98 or so. A Nurse taught on receiving Holy Spirit, the minute you get born again..she relayed that the word Pheuma has a direct correlation to the first breath taken in by a new born during delivery. She equated getting born again and the actual birthing process of delivery. She said, that there is just enough PSI involved as the baby travels down the birth canal that causes the influx of air to start the baby's heart and pulmonary functions..this word is Latin as is derived from the greek word neuma)(sp)...very interesting..

Isn't the heart beating already in the first trimester?

Jerry

Logic, as a concept that reflects how the world NORMALLY operates, i.e. cause and effect, was not man-made but natural (God-made). Logic though is not a concept, but the communication or expression of this interaction.

When I say "man-made logic" I am referring to the way we describe the cause and effect, whys, and wherefores of ideas.

I don't get it. You say logic as a concept is not man made and then turn around and say logic is not a concept. Could it be that what you are calling man-made logic is simply another term for reasoning? Reasoning being the communication or expression of cause and effect.

Jerry

We need to remember, that logic itself is manmade and thus fallible.

I don't think that logic is man made any more than mathematics is man made. I actually took a class in begining logic in college offered by the math department. Not that I remember much of it anymore, but by reducing statements to letter symbols, you could determine the validity of conclusions drawn by using the laws of logic. The only place where human fallibility came into the picture was assigning statements an incorrect letter value(the assumptions part of your examination of JCING).

An example would be that "the word was made flesh" doesn't necessarily mean "All the word was made flesh". It could mean "Some of the word was made flesh and some was not".

Jerry

I believe there is fruith of joy to the mother and father when the child is in the womb

so I think its a differ kind of fruit

Galations 5 lists the fruit of the spirit. They are for the believer, not the parents.They follow the works of the flesh which are done by the individual. They are not something only availabe in the future. A seed cannot produce fruit. A plant that is germinated but not sprouted or a fetus that is still developing, but not yet born,are headed towards a future event. Being born is present or past tense, not future tense.

1 Peter1;23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If the seed is incorruptible, does it produce a being or plant that is also incorruptible? Our bodies and souls are already corrupted, but the spirit cannot be. This is where we bear fruit, in the spirit, but is the fruit evident in our corrupt flesh, or must we wait to be changed before it is manifest? Redemption of the purchased possesion. Can a man's flesh become so corrupted that the incorruptible spirit cannot transform it at the end?

Jerry

Maybe some people get upset with Veg*'s because it would seem that MOST of them, not all, but the majority, think that they need to push that lifestyle on everyone else. I don't really care what you eat or don't eat. It's none of my business. So why do veg*'s make it a religion?

People in general have a tendency to foucus on a few wrongs that they would like to see set right. Smoking, women's rights, racism, alcoholism, etc. If their personality is such, they can get pretty adamant about a subject, even activist status. But I don't think the majority of any of these movements is bent on pushing the lifestyle on others. They merely support the fanatics that are out front on the issue. The majority are much more reasonable, but they don't get the press.

I doubt the majority of believers were fanatics about going door to door, and probably were quite uncomfortable. But a Minority thrived on that kind of in your face assault. Same as Vegans.

Jerry

I been thinking more about the differ between between salvation and "born again" and adding being planted or have been conception

maybe all three are differ stages we deal with until all is complete

I'm just wondering if you look at the seed as having been planted, but not yet germinated, how could there be any fruit? Fruit is evident now, so there must be a plant now also.

Jerry

whayever that movement is i ain't part of it

nor heard of it

Well, apparently there is a 'Movement" out there. Is it relevant?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Rain_Movement

I had not heard of the latter rain movement either, so I couldn't be a part of it. But I was curious as to what these rains were all about, both latter and former.

I like Ex10's info about the Jewish feasts. There may be some kind of symbolism going on here.

Jerry

Why is it that people look to God to perform miracles that seemingly go against the laws of nature, yet think of Him as unable to have His will done in the face of the law of believing?

"If you have the faith of a mustard seed ..." is like the Butterfly effect. Where a small inconsequential action can snowball into a huge, seemingly random, event. These are called "Acts of God", because no human is able to grasp all the factors of life that make up reality. But God knows and His will is done.

Jerry

Wow! I picked up one little thing on a radio station and come to find out that there is a whole movement out there backing it up. Funny how a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Thanks for the insight, people.

Jerry

James 5:7

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Does anyone know why there is a distinction made between former and latter rain? I always took rain to be rain, no matter when it comes.

But I have heard of Pentecost being the former rain, and a latter rain, yet to come, where the holy spirit will be poured out in a special way again. Not that I know how one comes to assign any of the rains being an outpouring of holy spirit.

I don't think you can whitewash everyone's rejection of Christ as simply being a point of view.There are plenty who are good people who have these fruit of the spirit qualities, yet deny that Christ is the only way to salvation.Acts4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved."

I'm just trying to reconcile the concept with verses like Matthew 7:18

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.. Seems like there must be a difference between a corrupt tree and an unbeliever.

Jerry

there comes a point when the language always fails, and names always fail

I'll give that language always fails at some point. It just is inadequate to convey spiritual truths. But it seems that the bible claims that the Name of Christ is the one exception to the idea that names always fail.But at the same time, the language we use around the name Jesus Christ(or however it is said in any other language)is subject to failure. It is the name Jesus Christ that is above all other names and unique when compared to Buddah or Muhammad or Ghandi etc. Let us call upon the name of the Lord, for therein is salvation.

But the fruit of the spirit sure seems present in good people who reject Christ, It is a puzzle to me.

Jerry

i think such notions are what gives us access to goodness and truth as they exist beyond the language we use to describe them

which then, allows us to see the one and selfsame "fruit of the spirit" that the Bible is describing, whether it is in a Buddhist's life, a Sufi's life, a Hopi's life, a Jesuit's life, etc...

and Christ is then seen (whose name is beyond names) regardless of the racial background of the writings that are used to give names to the fruit.

This sounds fine and all, but then you still have to reconcile the statement that Christ made of no one comung to the Father but by him(Jesus Christ). Can one come to the Father without knowing Christ's name? Or having heard his name and rejecting it, still come to the Father and manifest the good fruit?

Jerry

think that perhaps it helps to consider whether future and past exists at all

if not, then God's all knowing then becomes a matter of knowing all what is..now

past and future both exist in the present....and thats it

Ever hear of being "in the moment"? This is how God could experience all of time, in a moment.

When we watch a movie, we don't see the individual frames, because they are changing faster than our brains can take in as a single moment.

God not only sees what could be next, He sees what isn't going to be too. He sees how an infinite number of possibilities play out.

This reality is the one he has chosen for you to live.

Jerry

I believe whenever we are obedient to God, it may cause some suffering in others.

IMHO :)

Since Christ always did the Father's will (perfect obedience), it would imply that he came to cause suffering, not relieve it.

Jerry

Convieniently the works of rhe flesh were listed before the fruit of the spirit

Galations 5

19"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, quarreling, rivalry, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21envying, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like"

Like the fruit of the spirit, these are just not one time actions, but a flowing out of what has imbeded itself in the heart. Any which a little leaven leavens the whole lump and you cannot produce rippened fruit of the spirit. These seem like character builders whether good or evil. Can a branch bring forth both good and evil from it's heart. Not just a one time sinful action, but a practiced sinfull action.

You cannot serve both God and Mammon(whatever that is).

Jerry

I think Jesus is just a substitute image of a yet to be knowable God. 'If you have seen me, you have seen the father" Jesus is as yet the most perfect reflection of God that our limiter minds can grasp. In that sense he is God. But he and the Father have separate wills. Same as with the Holy Spirit. It has a different identity from God the Father, and God the son, and may only be a temporary facet of God to bring knowledge of the unspeakable to those who are Christ's. Indeed too, it seems that there will come a time when everything will be handed over to God, when He can truley be known.

Is Christ and the Holy Spirit God? In a sense yes, but only for a season.

Jerry