Frame57

Wierwille wasn't fundamentally all that different from the fraudulent psychic mediums and mentalists of his day. Except, instead of claiming to be channeling the spirit of dearly departed Aunt Mildred, he claimed to be channeling the spirit of God Almighty, himself. God, after all, tends to lend a bit more credibility than dear Aunt Mildred.

Serious? He never ever ever claimed that. That is a fabrication. In fact his view of the holy spirit was quite the opposite of how most Pentecostals view it as channeling. He argued against the mainstream because no body gets possessed by the holy spirit. He side with leonard in that the manifestations of holy spirit are "God given abilities.." Plain and simple. Dude! Where do get this stuff or do just make it up?

Docvic never knew the meaning of *borrow*. He stole and *copyrighted* other's works, plain and simple.

He wasn't content with *sharing knowledge* or crediting others. He had to take credit for it, all of it.

Just my IMO, but a valid one, eh? <_<

Cannot say i agree 100% on that. I know he gave credit to many people. Not that I ever heard him say that "How the bible Interprets itself" was soley attributed to Bullinger, but he did a lot in that many of bullinger's works have been put back on the press because of much of what VP did. I never heard him say he was the originator of any of the material. Only that he claimed that God would teach him the Word as it was not know since Pentecost or something to that effect. Which i took with a grain of salt. I was intirgued with how much of Bullinger work was incorporated into VP' stuff. Because I think Bullinger had a great mind and was a decent theologian. Looking back I am rather thankful because it afforded me the opportunity to study other biblical works that other's have done that i may never have stumbled across.

This one does not involve CES, but i got a chuckle out of it. back in October I received an Anonymous letter that only had an Elisha dot com e mail address on it. The letter basically said that their "prophets" were sent to warn the people of NYC before 911 and also the people of New Orleans before Katrina. Now their prophets were told by God that the city of San Francisco would have a devistating earthquake on 11/11. Well 11/11 came and went with no disaster in sight. I tried to communicate with these numbskulls just to ask them politely to not mail me anymore of their christian version of witchcraft. I wonder how many gullable people avoided Frisco that day?

Looks like Weirwille pinched this phrase as well.

"The Rule of Faith and Practice"

by A. A. Hodge (1823-1886)

From Outlines of Theology (Chapter Five)

Originally published in 1860, Outlines of Theology is now in the public domain. This chapter may therefore be copied and distributed without restriction.

Rest of the article can be viewed here:

http://www.the-highway.com/Scripture_Hodge.html

A.A. Hodge (1823-1886), Professor in Systematic Theology at Princeton Seminary from 1877 until his death in 1886, urged that the aim of every Christian teacher should be to produce a vitalizing impression — giving students ‘theology, exposition, demonstration, orthodoxy, learning, but giving all this to them warm.’ ‘He taught the knowledge of God,’ said one of his hearers, ‘with the learning of a scholar and the enthusiasm of a loving Christian’. These qualities not only crowded his classrooms, they also led to frequent appeals for the delivery of popular lectures. This article is taken from his Outlines of Theology, first published in 1860 by the Banner of Truth Trust

Good reference. I am going to have to add that one to my library. Interesting to note though that many, not just VPW used the same lingo. Whether it be Bosworth, Kenyon, Stiles, Allen, Lake etc... etc... This stems from their theology even though they have minor differences. I read many of Kenyon's books and read "God's Word is His will..." VPW said the same thing just worded it differently, but all the ministers that came up during the "Voice of healing" era all had very similar vocabularies as well as doctrinal practices with regards to the workinf of the Holy Spirit. They all borrowed from each other IMO.

god i loved the ROA.

I have to admit, I really grew fond of the WOW burgers!!! Them was some goooood vittles.

Agreed on all of that 110% Wordwolf

Frame, I believe what WordWolf is saying is that the original version of PFAL (initially titled "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today") was a virtual copy of Leonard's class, not that the final version was.

The final version is very different. The original it is hard to say. BG would have allowed Wierwille to teach the class but it would have had to have been under BG's guidlines and would have had to have been called "Gifts of the Spirit". The majority of folks who came into the way got the revised version. I doubt that there is anyone still around who took "receiving the Holy Spirit today". Also I want to note that BG's class focuses most of its time on the gift of healing and relatively little on the the inspired utterance gifts. Which IMO VPW spent far more time on those than the latter.

Hello.

Now, with "similarities" between BG Leonard's class and pfal, here's what happened.

The first iteration of pfal was "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today", and WAS a complete copy of

Leonard's class without Leonard's name. That's why grads of Leonard's class were automatically

considered grads of "vpw's" class.

Why was it the same class? vpw planned it that way. He talked his way into one of Leonard's

classes, took it again the next time it was offered, then, 3 months later, asked Leonard for

permission to run "LEONARD's" class locally on a onetime basis. Leonard approved of it,

giving vpw the benefit of the doubt. So, vpw took Leonard's class, said "this is my class",

ran it, charged money for it, and send Leonard a class photo for his collection.

After that, vpw kept teaching Leonard's class with vpw's name on it.

Later, he added JE Stiles' and Bullinger's books on the Holy Spirit, and Bullinger's stuff

on "how the Bible interprets itself." Later classes included some Aramaic distractions

courtesy of Lamsa-but few. Oh, and Kenyon, where this Word-Faith business of

the supposed "LAW" of believing is inserted.

The later classes looked less like Leonard clones because of the new material-

and how they were stretched into 3 levels of class after that.

Agreed on some of this. There are still huge differences between the two. I spent many many nights chatting with BG about this so I speak first hand. Wierwille had BG's blessing early on which is fact. VPW tried to convince BG that the term "Gifts" should be manifestations instead and that is where the fun began. Also BG was a staunch advocate that the KJV and only the KJV is the authorized text and so on...The last straw was when VPW went to SF to witness to the hippies. BG was reviled because he felt they were too steeped into drugs to and unless they were delivered first then and only then would they be allowed to take a class. BG always felt that VPW's problems with the Way were all due to the hippies...Both men parted company but Mrs. Wierwille and Mrs. Leonard stayed in contact regularly until Mrs. Wierwille was a convalescent.

The concept of evil spirit possession is not singular to CFF or any other offshoot. It is a doctrine that is taught in any "deliverance" ministry. Some pagan religions also believe this. The late Derek Prince was a strong advocate of this.

I doubt it. Swaggart and Baker are making attempts. Baker seemes to be doing well. In comparisom to these three, TWI was a fart in a hurrican as far as membership and finances were concerned. So Baker and Swaggart could do well from their diehards followers even if that only represents 10% of their former following. Whereas LCM would do better working at Micky D's.

I would think that Swaggart and LCM would have made a great Dynamic duo....NOT!

Hey there, Frame57

Welcome to GSC.

First latte is on the house.

Mmmm! Thanks, but i really love those Starbucks double shots, well the diet ones anyway!

My ex wife and I had spent a lot of time with Mark and Karen back in the late 80's. They knew that we were involved with some legal issues trying to get custody of my ex's two children. We lost the custody hearing and my ex and I split up. A few years later after Mark and karen left TWI I ran into Karen at a grocery store. She invited me to a "new" fellowship which I guess was CES. I decided to go and it was different needless to say. I was never accustomed to raising my hands and waving them during a "worship" service. We "Baptists" never did...Well about half way during the service the music stopped abrubtly and the song leader asked me what my problem was??? After that embarassing moment, then came the personal prophecies. Karen took the stage for this one. Her "prophecy" was over me and it was all about how God was going to heal my heart and get my kids back for me... Intersting seeing as i had no kids to get! After this freak show was over I talked with Karen about this and asked her how God was going to me some kids when i did not have any? She was taken aback and replied to me that "she" thought I had two kids and was involved in a custody battle to get them. I reminded her what the real history was and she became indignant and said "well sometimes these are not always right". I basically caught her in what so many fake mediums and other "ministries" do. They rely on information given to them in order to effect a "prophecy". Except that the information is not God given but people given. I have also seen other ministries use this prophecy business as a vehicle to control people. It is very sad what people do in the name of God.

Early on I saw some of the errors in PFAL like the "All without exception..." And so forth. I was chastisd by WAy Corp for questioning it, but I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I find it interesting though that many have said that VP's class was basically a rip of BG Leonards class and I have taken BG's class and can say with all distinction that the two classes are not remotely similar in any way. With the exception of the definitions of the 9 gifts or manifestations of the Spirit. They all begin them with "The God given ability..." But this has been evidenced in other ministries as well. The 40's and 50's had a huge Holy Spirit movement in the USA that many attribute to the ministries of John G. Lake and Smith Wigglesworth. J.E. Stiles learned about speaking in tongues from the Wigglesworth ministry and Wierwille learned it from Stiles. So, what I really see in PFAL is a little bit of Leonard, but a whole lot of Bullinger and some of Kenyon. As far as the matter over "the cry of triumph" is concerned. Wierwille was not an Aramaic scholar but relied mostly on the works of George Lamsa. Lamsa was consulted on it and felt it was accurate as far as estrangelo Aramaic was concerned. But all in all I can say I had a far worse experience with the "leadership" in BG's ministry than I ever had with the Way. but that is another story...