free2love

With many others attending churches and many purposfully deciding to not be involved in any Christian hierarchy, my question is, what is your definition of christian leadership?  Just curious what everyone thinks and how you define it....

Ya know, it's ironic you mention CES... Back in the early days of that bunch someone, probably John Lynn or Sue Pierce, wrote a teaching that, IMHO, pretty much nailed it.

Actually the answer is quite obvious yet it seems no one gets it... It seems virtually everyone automatically substitutes the word 'Boss' when they hear the word leader and that especially includes the majority of the so-called leaders of TWI.

It's really so simple if you just look at the word. I mean really, how would you define the word leader? 'One who leads', right? In the CES teaching, whoever wrote it cited the example of good ol' Dan'l Boone who was a trailblazer. They explained that 'blazing' was a term that referred to taking his knife or an axe and marking various symbols in the bark of trees along the trail indicating which way to steer the wagon train... around mountains, toward water, etc... It certainly was not his role to come back and criticize the followers for no knowing which way to go.

In other words the leader has the responsibility to continue to find and head in the right way and to share that info with those who follow... NOT to boss people around nor to judge them, be exalted by them, browbeat them, condemn them, verbally/sexually abuse them... I think you get the idea.

As for the Christian leader, well, like any leader their job is to lead... (so obvioous it would be funny if it weren't so sad... everyone interpreting leader as 'boss', that is) ...to continue to walk in the spirit, hold Christ as the head, love and serve God's people and, thereby, continue to grow. In the context of the Christian's life, this must be understood in light of what the bible says about 'babes' and 'perfect' (read 'mature') Christians.

Christianity is dynamic, not static. The mature ones are to lead those less grown. How did things get so confused when the word 'leader' is so simple? Once again, we can thank the usual jerk, RELIGION. (i.e.: the doctrines andcommandments of men)

Lead means lead... simple.

Is there anyway to see the whole thread on grease spot? what is this open, close, open close none sense? on other sites I can scroll and read?! is this some default format for you all die hard Macintosh devotees?

Sorry, Bro, I'm not sure what you mean... "open, close, open close"??? Near as I can tell this forum is pretty much the same as the many others you've been on. The quote function was new to me when I came here but one soon gets the hang of it... Just a regular scrolling-thread forum and, btw, I'm on a normal-though-old Win98 PC so I really don't understand what problem you're having.

:(

Yo Carl!

thought I'd chime in here... (a good a place as any) Last year or earlier this year I did a search for Gene, I guess to see if he'd escaped, and I found a reference in an old forum post by a guy who had appreciated his blessings and had entertained Gene and Sherry for some humdinger of a bbq. Anyway, I wrote him asking if he had some kind of address and, when he finally got back to me the address he gave me was PO Box 328, New Knoxville... O well... :(

I agree with everyone, he was/is a great, dynamic individual, a fine teacher and a good friend, but I guess ol' E. Max ain't as smart as we gave him credit for. Unfortunately the very qualities that make him such a strong individual are. apparently, the very ones that keep him bound to a dying cult. Gene is the kind of guy who, when the goin' gets tough, digs his heels in and STANDS! Sadly, I guess he's still standing... in the wrong direction.

Carl, you and I both saw that ol' "root, hog or die" stubborness when he withstood us to the face back in '87 when we led almost the entire branch out of the way and I guess he's still stickin' to it. well... he's also still in my prayers... Sherry too. To think that they have been still stickin' around for all that bull---- and abuse all these 20 years... it makes me shudder!

Love Ya Bro,

Pat

“Your dad died (you didn't say how) and you hold the RCC responsible for his death. If not "somewhat" responsible, then you imply total responsibility. Because they "lied"? It might be helpful if you said how your father died and what the lie or lies were that directly caused his death.

You hold them (RCC) responsible for his death, because as you said: "...the reason my Catholic father died at the age of 41 was ignorance of the word of God because his church left him ignorant and defenseless”; This implies that the church, in this case the RCC, must be responsible for teaching the word of God perfectly and inerrantly, and that if they did, your father would have not have been "ignorant and defenseless", and therefore would not have died.

If an organized church is to be responsible for teaching the Word perfectly, they must know it perfectly (no one does)”

How he died, his fourth heart attack, in my belief, is not as relevant as when. He was only 41. Obviously people die but when people die before their time I believe it is murder at the devil’s hand and most especially suicide. Responsibility? No, I’m not implying, I am saying outright that the church was totally responsible. Yes, absolutely. It matters not that it was the Catholic church. There is error taught in every Christian church and error is error. God’s word says and Jesus repeated again and again that the doctrines and commandments of men make the word of God of none effect. Religion teaches some of the truth and also teaches doctrines of men, leaving the believers ignorant of the truth to some degree. God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. It’s axiomatic.

Don’t you feel that “the church must be responsible for teaching the word of God perfectly and inerrantly”? If not the church, who do you think should be held responsible?

“…and must also have the authority to teach it. For the church to have the authority there must be a hierarchy of some kind. But you say there is and should be no hierarchy."

That does not necessarily follow. To clarify, I am saying there should be no *man-made* hierarchy. There already is a hierarchy called the body of Christ and Jesus is the head. Not veepee and not the pope.

“Even if a church did teach the word perfectly, there is no guarantee that any particular person would accept and follow it unless obedience to that hierarchal authority was demanded and somehow guaranteed.”

I don’t know what you mean. Guarantee? God doesn’t want obedience out of anything but free will. How would a man-made hierarchy influence whether someone was obedient? Jesus said “My sheep shall know my voice” and that is the only ‘guarantee’ needed.

”I agree with you in principle on the hierarchy issue. I disagree with any kind of clergy/laity division within the "church". I have been studying that for quite a few years and have my own take on that. But I never said the RCC did not have an hierarchy. IMO they have one of strictest and potentially abusive hierarchies in Christendom. But that was not my point at all.”

Nor was it mine.

“You also said: "The spirit-filled believer has "the mind of Christ" and all the faith anyone could ever need and we don't need anyone to tell us how to believe, what to believe, that we're not believing or that we're believing wrongly.

If this is the case, then it cannot be the responsibility of any church or organized religious group to teach people out of their ignorance, but instead the responsibility of the believer himself. Does this not also apply to your father? -- (and to mine who committed suicide?)

Sorry, I disagree. You are saying it is the fault of the victim for being victimized and that just won’t fly. God’s word says to put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand and fight when evil attacks. How can you do that if you don’t even know such armor exists, much less how to use if?

”Which is it? Is a church or it's leaders ultimately responsible for what a person believes, or is it the believer himself? In regards to you dad you seem to be putting 100 percent of the onus upon the church, and for everyone else upon the believer himself. That's my point.”

Sorry, you lost me again. Please explain: “you seem to be putting 100 percent of the onus upon the church, and for everyone else upon the believer himself.” What does that mean?

It seems you are comparing apples and oranges. You may not realize it but what you are saying is really confusing. God said: Heb8:10 "...I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know (ginosko = to know (by experience, or effort) the Lord: for all shall know (oida = to know (intuitively) without effort, to understand) me, from the least to the greatest.”

This verse, and there are many others, shows that in the OT, prior to Pentecost, all men did not have God’s spirit inside as we do now, and God had a very strict hierarchy so that His word could be passed down through his Prophets who DID have the spirit. God also gave authority to those prophets upon whom He placed His spirit but you have to realize this was the determining factor. The people in general had absolutely no clue about God so there had to be someone to say ‘Know the Lord’ because they didn’t. Get it? The difference now is that we all can know God, first hand. We are no longer dependent upon Prophets who have spirit to guide us because we don’t have spirit. We DO have God’s spirit inside us and we CAN understand God. OK? Frankly, I’m surprised I have to explain this to you. You say you’ve studied this for years. This is basic.

Learning to communicate with God is a totally separate issue. We do need to learn the written word. We do need to study. There is a point where we are pretty much ignorant, even though we have the spirit. We need to learn those things that God put in His word to begin to know Him and it’s just fine if we sit down together and share it with each other toward that end. Do you understand the difference?

The verses above refer to this time now when such a hierarchy would no longer be needed because God can speak to any and all of us because we DO have his spirit. Understand? I hope I’ve made it clear.

It's interesting that you almost verbatim quoted a teaching promulgated by Wierwille in your argument.

I’m not sure if I ever saw or heard a twi teaching about this.

Then you quoted me:

“As far as that goes, I know that religion, at its best, is still man-made. The word in the bible chosen by God for religion in Greek is threskeia which means “the outward show of piety” as opposed to the Greek word eusebeia, translated godliness and defined as “a real, true, vital, spiritual relation(ship) with God”

That was a false dichotomy put forth by Wierwille and company: that threskeia and eusebeia were opposed one to another. In addition, developing paragraphs long definitions for words that hardly require them...and putting definite spin into them...

Threskeia means ceremonial worship. Eusebeia means piety. Threskeia is definitely external: it speaks about the practices used in worship. Eusebeia is definitely internal. It refers to an attitude...

Actually, what I said about these two words is pretty much ‘verbatim’ from Bullinger’s “Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament” including the statement that they are opposites. I found this info when I did a study on religion many years ago. As I understand it the oppositional relationship between these two words existed in the Greek language prior to their being used in the bible. This means the “dichotomy” is true. If you have one available, look it up.

The one place this word is not translated ‘religion’ in the NT is particularly interesting in regard to this discussion. In Colossians, the book of correction addressed to “the faithful” (i.e.: consistent, mature) in Christ and, as I’m sure you know, the purpose of which is to correct doctrinal error; Here we find:

Col 2:16 “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are (were?) a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and *worshipping* (THRESKEIA) of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.”

God most definitely prescribed a religious form for the spiritless OT Jews which dictated everything right on down to their clothing and what they ate but, lest we forget, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned” (NIV); Whereas now, in this time, it is saying to spirit-filled Christians: ‘instead of religion, with men dictating to you how to act, what to eat, drink, etc., instead of all that we have *the body is of Christ* and Christ is the head; Christ is the one who judges you and anyone who is not seeing it this way is *not holding the head*.’ That was the thing I realized after leaving twi; that we were ‘beguiled’ into relegating Jesus Christ into this passive, almost non-existent role by Wierwille’s doctrines and, therefore, “not holding the head”

The implication given was that they are mutually exclusive. But I would submit that one would have a very difficult time with authentic threskeia without having eusebeia inside.

“Authentic threskeia”?!? Clever idea, but entirely your own, right? From what you say you are seeing something in scripture that isn’t there. It seems you have the concept “true religion” (“authentic threskeia”?) set in your mind and you’re seeing scripture as supporting that belief but I’m afraid it’s just not at all biblical. There is no such thing as “authentic threskeia”, in fact, I believe that would qualify as an oxymoron. Think about it… People can be very religious with no eusebeia inside at all. It happens all the time. Jesus was always going off about it. “This people draw nigh unto me with their lips but their heart is far from me”! They draw near in their many ceremonies but there is no love, no mercy, no compassion... How can you even make such statements in the face of these scriptures?

The ‘mutual exclusivity’ of these two words is way more than an implication. They truly are at opposite ends of the spectrum and I don’t know how you can be looking at the same bible I am and not seeing that. I think lcm is a perfect example of someone with lots of threskeia and almost no eusebeia. That boy could tear up the scriptures but I think many of us knew from the start, as soon as he started yelling, that he was one who was “intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”

The epistle of James speaks extensively about genuine religion versus false religion in this regard. The word "threskeia" is used but twice, but...reading the entire epistle for what it is (not like it's horribly long)...we can see that true religion performs acts of mercy. "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

OK, let’s take a look at James.

“26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, (Note the negative connotation) this man’s religion is vain.” (Bullinger equates this with "a careful follower of the observances connected with his belief"-CB)

27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this: To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

“Pure religion” here is, as defined by its context, in the sense of ‘as if there actually were such a thing’. In other words: “REAL service to God (as you rightly stated) is to show mercy, not the ceremonial observance, etc… i.e.: NOT religion”. The only way you can come away with the idea that this speaks of a “true religion” i.e.: “the true church” is if you superimpose it yourself.

All through the OT the “fatherless, widows and strangers” are spoken of as those needing mercy and help. Just do a KJV word study of ‘fatherless’ and/or ‘widows and you’ll see what I mean. It is relevant, I think, to see that the Jews had to be commanded by God to care for the orphans and widows among them because had they not been required to they wouldn’t have done so. Why? No spirit, that’s why. No spirit, no love. No love, no mercy; Thus the depth of James’ statement: The one who ‘seems to be religious and bridles not his tongue, deceiving his own heart whose religion is vain’.

Truly, this section of scripture does more to support what I’ve stated than not. Another point of interest is that threskeia’s Hebrew counterpart originally referred to the idolatry of Egypt, but even more, it is *always* viewed in a negative connotation. In actual truth, religion is *always* man’s attempt to approach God which, by its very nature, is *always* inadequate because man doesn’t know what the heck he’s dealing with. (Remember? “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”) i.e.: We don’t understand God because we are so smart or because we study so hard. If we do understand God at all it is because God has revealed Himself to us. If we don’t it’s because He hasn’t.

You are absolutely correct that Our Lord said to the Pharisees, Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (Mt 15).

Of course, we need to understand the context of this statement… The key verses that you need to focus on are verses 4 and 5… To really understand this, though, you should look at the parallel in Mark 7…

Now see, I see just the opposite. I feel the focus should not be on v.4,5 as they are only the example, not the main point of what is being said. Again, Mark 7:10 & 11 are only the example. Grammatically, an example is somewhat like a parenthesis in that it could, temporarily, even be left out to facilitate communication. The readers mind should be convinced by the example of what is being stated, namely the hypocrisy of teaching doctrines and traditions of men as God’s word. Instead, why don’t we take a look at these two passages minus the examples?

“Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying… But ye say… Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, ‘This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; (o yeah, very religious; lots of ritual) but their heart is far from me.’ But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

“Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, for laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, ...many other such like things ye do. Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”

Thus, in the manner just described, the covetous, ungrateful Jews callously neglected parental responsibility by an appeal to this perverted human tradition. In so doing, they flouted the law of God and yet, on this occasion, they had the unconscionable nerve to accuse the Lord and his disciples of a breach of spirituality because they ignored uninspired rabbinical tradition. This was the epitome of inconsistency. Understanding the context, it is pretty clear (to me, at least) that a blanket condemnation of tradition is not being made. Rather a condemnation of traditions that ends up making void the Word of God.

You'll note that St. Paul encouraged the Thessalonians to live in accord with the tradition they received from them (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy). Again, words that are basically neutral in nature have been shown to be in opposition to other words. Tradition=bad. God's Word=Good.

I see your point. Notice that they are always referred to as “traditions of men” i.e.: traditions and doctrines originating from men vs. traditions and doctrines originating from God. Obviously there is a difference and the bible is pretty clear on which is which. I think it’s more like: Traditions of men=bad, God's Word=Good.

Your statement, though,

“That’s pretty much how I feel now about Christian religions. Christ is preached; Far out. …but I also know that the doctrines and traditions of men make God’s word “of none effect”.”

has a lot of truth in it. When ecclesiastical communities go off in their own direction without regard for God's Word, they mess up and do much to hurt the people that choose to follow them. I won't say all are that way. I won't say that ANY of them are perfect. But I think that many of them have much to offer...some more than others...

I’m not sure your mind is really grasping the enormity of this. The reason this word represents such devastating evil is because when a person comes to that religious teacher, opening up their heart to what they believe is truly the word and mind and heart of God and receive, instead, some tradition or doctrine of man’s authoring, because they already think they know truth, they are unable to see or receive the blessing of God’s truth. Receiving the lie thus prevents them from receiving the results and God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge but in this case they have not received the knowledge because they think they already have it.

OK, so let’s take another look at it. As I said, in the NT, religion is always a negative thing. Not neutral. In fact, based on what I’ve stated so far, I would go so far as to say that there is nothing more evil or destructive in this world than religion. Think about it. Is there anything Jesus spoke out against more? Here in Matthew 23 is another place where Jesus really let fly on the subject… words to think on: “23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done,”

Sounds a bit like those verses in James, doesn’t it? Now look at the context and, again, is there anything Jesus ranted against more than religion?

“1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. ***23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.*** 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

In Romans 1 we find something else significant in this regard:

“24 Wherefore God also gave them up..: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creat(ion) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever”. Some references (Companion Bible) state that “a lie” should be “THE lie” corresponding with the words “THE truth” in the same sentence. “…who changed THE truth of God into THE lie.” THE lie is simply this: “It’s a dog-eat-dog world”, “Watch out for #1” and all thoughts, feelings, motives, doctrines and traditions based on THE lie fall into what the bible calls “walking according to the flesh". Doctrines and religions of men come from THE lie. THE truth of God is love.

As to the "Sower" article you cite, I understand the references within 1 Cor 14. I understand that everything should be done for building up (cf v 26). Of course, this is done since He is not the God of disorder, but of Peace (cf v33). I, frankly, am not sure how these verses that you cited have anything to do with any type of hierarchy one way or the other. Of course, I am not able to look at this issue of "the Sower," so there might be something else that I might have missed.

It is simple. If love is the motivation of each member, Jesus is running the fellowship so no man-made hierarchy is necessary. Each member will perfectly function within the fellowship with no one telling them what to do because Jesus will guide them. If not, if they are all wrapped up in their worries and their angers and their greeds, etc, etc, i.e., if their self concern is overwhelming them, there will be confusion. That was the problem with the fellowship meetings in Corinth and that’s what God was addressing. Understand?

I still go back to the fact that had bishops, priests, and deacons not been needed, their offices wouldn't have had been established in the New Testament.

The same thing applies as in my last statement above. If love is motivating everyone, bishops, priests and deacons will be all led by that same spirit. No man-made hierarchy need exist. No head “honcho” because Jesus Christ Himself now fills that role.

Heb8:10 "...I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know (ginosko = to know (by experience, or effort) the Lord: for all shall know (oida = to know (intuitively) without effort, to understand) me, from the least to the greatest. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

I hope it’s clear now because that’s what the bible says.

My opinion is that it's much simpler than that. VPW (and his mighty ego) picked the biggest foot-kisser.

Jim I think you nailed it!

Ironically the story of Loy Boy bears out a section of the word better than any I’ve ever seen:

1 Timothy 3:1-6

"1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be… 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."

I think God nailed it pretty well too... "being lifted up with pride he fell"...

Free2Love,

Your comments back to Danny are uncalled for. You advocate the position of "soul sleep" as the only available position. As this is not a TWI, Seventh-Day Adventist, or Jehovah's Witness only board, you shouldn't make that assumption...then attacking somebody for not subscribing to that position.

Whoa! Hold on there. I don’t recall attacking Danny nor did I intend to. I don’t know anything about any “position of ‘soul-sleep’”. (What is that?) I just read what the bible says because it says the truth. Did you read 1 Thes 4:13-18? What does it say? Is that the truth? Why do you think I want to attack someone?

The vast majority of Christianity outright rejects the doctrine of "soul sleep." Not just Catholicism. I recognize that you are attempting to use this as an excuse to attack Catholicism.

You’re dead wrong on this. Many Catholics are born again and are my brothers and sisters. Do I disagree with much of Catholic doctrine? Yes I do but they teach about Jesus Christ and I think that's keen.

I don't know what happened to you (other than this incident) nor do I really care to any degree more than simple human charity, but you need to keep in mind that, in addition to attacking my beliefs, when you say <i>but this is more an expression of the extreme ignorance of this priest, stating the exact opposite of the truth</i>, you are attacking the beliefs of many well-respected Protestants on this board, as well.

Sorry ‘bout that but if you’re a priest, a pastor, a preacher, a bishop or whatever and you actually think that it’s God’s will in any way shape or fashion for His people to die, you are really ignorant of what the word of God says. BTW, ignorant means you don’t know certain facts. I didn’t say they were stupid.

If you want to attack Catholicism, I'd suggest you start a rant about a practice that is more uniquely Catholic, rather than attacking based on a belief that is held by the vast majority of Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant.

Well, ya know, I’ve never been all that impressed with numbers. The word of God is not established by majority vote. Jesus said in Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

That's the only point I wanted to make. If you want to be shown the scriptural inaccuracy of the doctrine of "soul sleep," as advocated by TWI, there have already been threads on that subject in Doctrinal. I suppose we can re-engage on that subject again though.

That’s ok. 1 Thes 4:13-18 is plain enough. The dead are dead and they will be resurrected when Jesus Christ returns.

Oh, and I assume you accept the scriptural evidence I made about a hierarchy being legitimate, since you didn't bother to refute it.

Well, I talked about that a lot in my last few posts… Actually, I’d really love to get back to the subject of the thread if that’s ok…

Thanks.

God Bless

ps - Mark, I just went and re-read my reply to Dan and I gotta say, I think your response to me was a little over the top. Are you ok? Are you angry at me? Did I do something wrong to you? Pls send me a pm and let's talk about it. I'm not here to hurt anyone's heart. :(

Ain't that the truth!

Got to love the message of God's never failing grace! Walkin in the spirit's the only way. To think we/I could ever discipline the flesh by our own minds (works)!

Priest said the same thing when my father died. Told him to get out of my home, and don't expect a cash handout for his mumbo jumbo (Dad was catholic and Mom was taught their phobus). The priest foamed at the mouth mumbling something out the door. Never saw the jackass again.

Great Post!

What can I say? Great response! Amen!

Thank you!

God Bless!

Sorry about your dad. I have heard the "it was God's will" thing before, but it was from Protestants rather than Catholics, and then from individuals and not necessarily representatives of the Church itself. I don't pay much attention to that kind of stuff and didn't before, even as a kid. But I can see how it could make someone feel when coming from a priest. I lost my Dad to suicide when I was 19, and he was 49. It wasn't said, but I know that certain of his friends and relatives believed he was going to hell for it. One even paid a priest for a special prayer for him to keep him from going to hell. But I doubt there was anything that could been said that would have eased the pain for me then.

It amazes me the strange, devilish doctrines religions come up with. As your sharing illustrates, going to hell for committing suicide is a widespread belief, fostered by many religions, yet, there is absolutely no scriptural basis for it that I know of. Nothing but thin air, maybe invented to prevent suicides, but fabricated nonetheless. This is a very good comparison as I’m sure your experience was as devastating as mine. Regarding what “could been said that would have eased the pain”, as I wrote to Danny, the words of 1 Thess 4:13-18 end with “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” That’s pretty plainly stated, don’t you think? God says the knowledge contained there is to be shared with those who lose a loved one. He says He doesn’t want us to be ignorant of those things.

Anyway, it seems you are holding the church somewhat accountable for your father's death ...("the Church left him ignorant and defenseless"). I fail to see your reasoning here. If as you say, that we are all the church and there is no hierarchy, then how can you hold the RCC accountable? By holding the RCC accountable, you are implying that the RCC had the power and responsibility to not leave him ignorant, which then suggest an hierarchy. Maybe you could share your reasoning on that.

I’m sorry; I don’t really get your question or your point. …or as you put it, “I fail to see your reasoning here”. “Somewhat responsible"? You’re kidding, right? Of course I hold them responsible. They lied. What’s your point? Bottom line? God's own people are destroyed "for lack of knowledge". Thanks to his religion he lacked much knowledge and he was destroyed.

Of course there was/is a hierarchy in the “RCC”. There *should be* no hierarchy imposed but, unfortunately, in most churches this is what we have, hence this is how most of us were raised and/or all we can find. The only one that rejects such a structure that I have heard of is the Quaker church. Apparently, while they have a healthy respect for their elders, when they meet for worship they sit silently and wait for God to move someone to speak… (rather than a minister) and it can be anyone, young or old… anyone. If no one speaks, they go home and that’s it. No man has the right to act as the “head”. You can make some kind of theological argument out of this but do you really think there should be some person to lord over you other than the true Lord, Jesus Christ?

This is in Heb 8: “We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.” And this in Heb 9: “11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

In the OT when people didn’t have holy spirit and could not understand spiritual things God most definitely worked within the framework of a hierarchy which He Himself set forth in His word. Now we don’t need one and should reject it out of hand.

Finally, this is what is says in Heb 8: “10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

As Mark pointed out in his post, What TWI taught and still teaches is what is known as Word-faith theology. This is the name it and claim it kind of faith (believing) that is supposed to get you fire engine red drapes, and a good parking spot at the mall.

I would draw a sharp distinction between "faith" and "word-faith theology". Faith is necessary and still a huge part of becoming and being a Christian. Again, I wouldn't write "faith" off completely. Although love is the greatest commandment and will never pass away, faith is also still necessary. However, I will wholeheartedly agree that "word-faith theology" as taught by TWI, Joyce Meyers, Kenneth Copeland and a slew of others is dead wrong. It is leaven that leavens the whole lump IMO.

More importantly, those “word-faith” churches as well as many others who aren’t but still focus on faith rather than love in their teachings have the overall practical effect of hindering the spiritual growth and maturing of God’s people.

I’m not writing faith off. Faith is a result of the spirit. (Gal 5:22) So is love. You have faith because you have spirit. You have love because you have spirit. (or you don’t because you don’t) What the bible tells me in 1 Cor 13:13 is “13And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love”. You won’t find a statement like that in the OT.

Something else to consider: Yes, they did lead us wrong, but we followed them didn't we? We put our trust in them and what they taught didn't we? Didn't we choose to believe what they taught us? Yet the Bible and the Holy Spirit were right there with us all the time.

Yes we did and ya know something? Most of us did so out of a real desire to know God and to serve Him. That’s why it’s so heartbreaking and their lies are so evil.

Also, you are saying that we don't need anyone to tell us what to believe or that we are believing wrongly, yet isn't that kind of what you are doing in this post? -- telling TWI, Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen, etc and those that subscribe to their teachings that they are wrong? Just an observation. Personally, I see no problem with pointing out certain errors. Neither Jesus, nor Paul nor the other apostles had a problem with it.

I said those things in the context of talking about hierarchy. We don’t need a hierarchy of ministers to ‘pass down’ the word to us because God lives in all of us.

Yup, as a result of our acceptance of the erroneous "law of believing" and the God wants your rich stuff -- many of us went to God with the solutions and answers instead of the questions. Many times, we were less than humble.

One thing that became apparent when I first realized all of this was how twi was glorifying people instead of God. I remember one of the songs on the country music outreach tapes that went something like: “he’s a good ol’ twig leader, runs a twig in his home…”. If you got positive results by believing right, it was to your glory. If you didn’t it was your fault for not renewing your mind and your negative believing. According to the teaching of twi, God didn't have a blessed thing to do with it. The part that hierarchy played in all this should be obvious, In this section of Colossians 2 we find a direct parallel and the end result of building and holding to a hierarchical structure. It’s called “not holding the head”…

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, F10 or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile F11 you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments F12 of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting F13 of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

We did as we were taught. Hierarchy is really what nailed us with twi…. (And that dumb ol’ law of believing, word-faith stuff of course) Imagine. They really did teach a good, empirical method of bible research and then turned right around and got us all scraping and bowing to “The Man of God” or our “Father In The Word” under the “Way Tree” with the whole thing so well organized in trunk, limb, branch, twig, etc.. I remember how they explained the way tree as being the opposite of hierarchy because it went up instead of down and they said leaders were the servants but it never actually worked that way. Every organization of any kind in the world, school, church, gov’t, business, everything is hierarchical, so we don’t really know any other way; hence, we were deceived.

I don't get "freaked out" when people tell me "God told me". I just usually take it with a grain of salt. I seldom give any weight to something when someone says "God told me". It seems to be quite common these days, with all the wannabe prophets going around contradicting each other with all the "God told me" stuff.

Some folks seem to use the "God told me" line when they want to close the discussion or when they want ot refuse any input or feedback from others. Personally, I think it sabotages the conversation most of the time when someone says that. If God truly told them something, passing it on is enough. If it is truly from God, those that have ears will hear. His sheep hear his voice and don't need to be told whose voice it is.

Hey look, it is assumedly the same God, right? So if someone says "God told me", *ASK GOD*! He can speak you too or to whomever, however He wants. He just may be speaking to you. :)

As a never-miss-a-Sunday, go-to-daily-Mass-when-I-can, Catholic who has attended my share of funerals and worked my share of funerals, I will never cease to be amazed when I hear of these "It was God's will" statements by clergy in the wake of a funeral. I will also say that I have never heard that statement being made in person. It's funny, though: the only time I've ever heard of that statement being made was when I've heard ex-Catholics make the statement as being the rationale for them leaving Catholicism.

As I mentioned to Danny, I do/did not necessarily mean to tear down the Catholic church by my statements, just to use an example from my own life to illustrate my point regarding the ignorance of scripture and it’s damage and, as someone else pointed out, I’d be likely to hear the same statement, “It was God’s will”, from the Protestant or other religions.

As far as that goes, I know that religion, at its best, is still man-made. The word in the bible chosen by God for religion in Greek is threskia which means “the outward show of piety” as opposed to the Greek word eusebeia, translated godliness and defined as “a real, true, vital, spiritual relation(ship) with God”

I know that it says:

Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And then, on the other hand, when some were trying to influence the jailers to give lashes to Paul in addition to the chains they’d already bound him with by pretending to preach his message in the streets, but doing so as obnoxiously as they could, he said:

Philippians 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

That’s pretty much how I feel now about Christian religions. Christ is preached; far out. …but I also know that the doctrines and traditions of men make God’s word “of none effect”. There is no perfect church. All of them have some wrong doctrine and, likewise, to varying degrees, all of them have some truth. If ‘Christ is preached’ people can be saved and receive the holy spirit and eternal life… ‘and I therein do rejoice.

A more incredibly insensitive thing to say I can't think of.

I agree. Let’s not forget destructive as well. I don’t think I can adequately express how much but, as one who was victim to it I’ll say this: No one in the position of a minister of any kind has any right telling such a bald-faced LIE. Whether they are ignorant or knowingly “teaching for doctrines the commandments of men”, either way it’s just as evil.

A couple of comments on your post, having said the above:

* You cite the primacy of love. I think you have some valid points. However you use scripture to justify that conviction. In order for scripture to have validity in your thesis, you need to have faith in that scripture.

I see what you mean. I didn’t say we don’t need to have faith, just that faith was the MAIN ISSUE in the time prior to the outpouring of the holy spirit on Pentecost and nowadays the MAIN ISSUE is love.

* Having said that, I think what you are complaining about is "Word-Faith" theology...what is used by a number of televangelists and espoused by VPW. I agree with you fully that this is a horribly dangerous theology that is leading many, many Christians astray.

Right on.

* As far as your assertion of no hierarchy, I agree that there are too many who are in authority who think that their position is one of being served, rather than one who serves. I would point out for your attention the following scriptures:

o Matt 16:17-19

o Eph 4:11-12

o Ph 1:1

o Tit 1:5

o 1 Tim 3

Here they are:

Matt 16:17-19: 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Eph 4:11-12: 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Phil 1:1: 1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons

Tit 1:5: 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, F2 and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

1 Tim 3: 1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground F4 of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

o And one that I'll quote (as it supports my statement above about having an attitude of service) John 21:15-17 -- When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

* There are far too many people who call themselves bishops, reverends, ministers, pastors, "brothers", or whatever, who seem to have forgotten the above section.

Very well put. Certainly there are leaders and ministries in the body of Christ. But just look at the word itself: It’s *leaders*, not bossers. It’s so obvious yet we don’t see it and we get bamboozled. A leader is one who goes ahead, leading the way. Then he/she comes back and serves what they have found to the others. As you point out, the role of a Christian leader is to serve. That is because what he is leading in happens to be love. God is love and the knowledge of Him is love. When Jesus washed the feet of the apostles what was He teaching them but the humble service of love?

As far as this all applies to Christians and the aspect of hierarchy, I can think of no better example than I saw in a very early “Sower” article from CES I read called “Pattern for Fellowship” which was, in part, a study of 1 Cor 14. In it they pointed out that after all the reproof regarding the improper conduct in their fellowship meetings, in verse 26, couched as an almost minor, deceptively simple statement is God’s solution to the whole mess. He doesn’t say “Well, what you need to do is get some strong, charismatic men and women to take charge” or “You need to believe for some gift-ministries in your area”. (sound familiar?) What He said was: “26How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying” the context of this wonderful truth is not a leadership epistle, in fact this is set smack in the middle of what is considered the “milk” or basic principles to the believer. Stated another way, this is not addressed to leaders but to every believer in the body! I remember when I used to teach fellowship in my apartment and I would spend hours praying for God to help me by showing me what to teach, what to sing, who to call on, mostly, just focusing on how I could best bless God’s people, (and of course He always did) studying, doing word studies, etc. and When I read that article, years later, He brought those times back to my mind. Of course when all this was happening my understanding was firmly entrenched in the attitude of twi’s hierarchy. Reading that study was like taking off blinders. God’s instruction to “Let all things be done unto edifying” (love) is not to leaders.but to everyone. All the believers praying to know how to bless God’s people, preparing their minds in the word, looking to the needs of each other. That is what was wrong at their meetings. Their hearts were filled with one kind of self concern or another rather than looking to how to edify one another and all this probably confused by a super-imposed hierarchy. There is no need for a tiered hierarchy because if all set their hearts in love to edify one another, God will work in them and the one who has something to teach will teach and the one who has something to sing or to prophesy or minister, they will do so and all will be decent and in order as God is not the author of confusion.

We all have a leader, the best leader who is able to speak to us and work in us to love. His name is Jesus Christ.

If GSC "stands up" for anything, it would be for no censorship.

Review about GSC: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/aboutus.htm

Nothing and no one. Everyone here has an equal right to say what is on his or her mind. That is the beauty of free speech, which btw, most people used to twi's method of operation do not comprehend.

Review about the forum: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/forums.htm

If you encounter opposition when you voice your opinion, enjoy it. Embrace it.

If you want the freedom to speak your mind, you need to be willing to entertain the idea that the expression of your opinion just might find some opposition in the opinion of another person or group of people.

If you can't stand the heat, then I have to ask:

What are you doing in the kitchen? Put on an apron or grab a mop, or sit at the counter and have a cuppa joe.

But don't bitch about the help. They've got their hands full and do a bangup job IMHO

Thank you for the tips and the wise words. They are much appreciated. :)

Well, Free, it's been established that everyone on here is free to speak. You've been welcomed and been warned of what kinds of responses your 'holier than thou' attitude may invoke.

So, now, speak - start a topic - what's on your mind? Please, do, tell us what your god is working on your heart that so prompted you to begin posting all of a sudden.

Already did.

link

You've been a *member* here, since July of 2003.

You just started posting in April, of 2006.

Good point.

Not trying to de-rail the thread --

but why wait so long to *say your piece*??

You've been here almost three years.

Just my curiosity at work here. :)

(And no -- I am NOT castigating you. Just wondering.)

Good, I’ve had about all the castigating I can take for a while.

Why didn't you say something sooner??

Was there an impetus that caused you to speak up now?

Versus earlier??

Great questions all, Dave, but, judging from what I’ve seen a lot of people aren’t gonna like my answer.

It's simple. As I said before, if God tells me to speak, I speak, and until He does I “keep it in until afterward”.

Hope that works for you. It's the truth.

lets try again---

No, let’s not

That is your viewpoint-

That’s right

Not agreeing with you does not mean…

Forget it. I spend my time replying to you and you ignore it and reply to my post to someone else? Forget it.

There is a difference between speaking the word of God and speaking your interpretation of the word of God.

Tell me what you mean. I don’t understand.

FreetoLove,

Is there anything appropriate anyone could have possibly uttered upon the event of your father's untimely passing-away, that could have brought comfort and security to the spirit of a child undergoing such heart-shattering, unimaginable loss?

Yes, actually there is; words specified for this exact purpose: 1 Thess 4: "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent F10 them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort F11 one another with these words."

It's as a cry of despair, a mechanism of trying to deal and make sense of a senseless situation, perhaps intended to affix one's attention upon one's own of purpose in life, that as random and violent and unpredictable that life may appear, there's a reason for me still being here and continuing on, and getting through all this horrible crap.

I can appreciate your attempt to ‘make sense of it all’ but this is more an expression of the extreme ignorance of this priest, stating the exact opposite of the truth.

I wonder if we're not being overcritical of this expression - such that now appears to me more a saying arising more out of unspeakable anguish, than a saying that should be dissected beneath a theological microscope.

I can see the theological wheels turning, but no, this requires painstaking analysis. According to God it is the knowledge of the resurrection from the dead that will comfort the anguish of losing our loved one to death, even to the end that we “sorrow not, even as others which have no hope”. BTW, the reason those ‘others’ have no hope is because they’ve been taught instead to believe in life after death, which is a lie.

What if, instead of the priest saying "It was God's will", he said to you rather affirmatively, "God is love"?

Would that had left you with any less distasteful impression in your memory?

Yes, that, at least, wouldn’t have left me insane with anger and hatred. Face it, this was a spiritual ambush.

It would still hurt.

You got that right brother.

Thanks for posting Danny

BTW, I’d like to make it clear; I was only using my personal experience to illustrate the need for accurate knowledge and the vulnerability one is exposed to when that knowledge isn’t there and we are led astray by men. …like the leaders of twi.

I say: That sounds pretty condescending to me and nothing more or less than heard from the Way. I hear you saying that God is working in you to save those of us who don’t believe your way. You are here, super believer to save the day.

Nope, just a regular, every-day believer.

I say: Well aren’t you special. Guess God only works in you and us “needy” ones need you to save us from our despair.

(LoL!!! Church Lady!) Nope, He works in all of us who have His spirit to the extent that we allow Him. Likewise, we are all “needy”. I don’t know where you get the words “to save us from our despair”. I never said that.

I say: You said, when a standing Christian comes on here, like none of us are standing Christians. You don’t know a thing about any of us here, do you?

Where do you get the idea that because I say I’m a standing Christian, I mean others are not??? That’s not even logical.

I say: You are the one assuming a lot coming on here and stating you are here because God is working in you to will and do of his good pleasure.

That’s no assumption, that’s what the bible says and I believe it.

A little humility on your part wouldn’t hurt.

Probably not. Pride is the hardest thing to grow out of, I think… I do know it starts with being humble to the word of God and believing what it says. I can certainly see that you are MUCH more humble than myself.

Why don’t you try reading around the site and listening instead of talking. Maybe you would learn something about this site and about the good people on this site.

You are assuming I haven’t... and, again you’re wrong, I have. As far as not talking, why do you want me to be quiet? …and who are you to tell me that? If you don’t like what I say, complain to God. When He tells me to keep quiet, I will.

I say: I think you said it all in the above sentence. And you wonder why I might be offended.

I sure do. I haven’t done anything to you that I know of.

Where God sends me…………TWI lingo all the way.

Twi doesn’t have a corner on the bible. No religion does.

If God has TRULY sent you somewhere, you don’t need to tell anybody, it will be obvious from what you share. You don’t have to announce that. That’s pretty egotistical.

I tell what God commands and I announce what God wants announced. This is the heritage of all Christians. Yes, God TRULY has sent me. Besides, what you just said is not true. God has sent many messengers, human and angel, who have told people they had come and announced it. The bible is full of examples. Not always but certainly not as you said. God is versatile. My ego has nothing to do with it.

I say: …….so God has inspired you to come to GSC and preach your message. I say BULL CRAP…..you are here to make yourself feel good.

Really? Oh yeah, it just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to take this "BULL CRAP" from you. Again, ask God if He has sent me here. When I was young my dad had a favorite saying I still recall: “A liar never believes anyone and a thief always locks his doors”… In other words, we measure others with the same yardstick wherewith we measure ourselves. So far, among other things you’ve accused me of condescending, being egotistical and now selfish. Maybe that’s because that's how you are? I don't know. I'm not your judge.

I say: Not challenging your right to say it, just not agreeing with you and that is the freedom I have.

Baloney. That’s just an outright lie. No, you’re not “just not agreeing with” me, you are viciously attacking me; Why? I don’t know. Again, what’d I do to you???

I say: Ask him what?? Again, isn’t that special that you and him have such a unique relationship, that you never know why he sends you or for whom . Talk about condescending…….. I just go cuz God says I should.

Maybe if you had ever humbled yourself enough to have let God work in you to serve Him you’d know that this is just SOP to His servants. This is how God works.

I say: Hey I am not just going to roll over like I did in TWI and have you tell me that you are here to save us “sinners” from ourselves. And that is exactly how you are acting. You can deny it all you want, but when you start talking about how God wants you at this site because he is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure blah blah blah,……….

Hey, YOU are the one with the hard heart going out of your way to attack me just because I believe in God and what He says in His word. I never said anything about ‘saving sinners from themselves’. You’re making things up as you go along. Do you know what that’s called? It’s lying.

I say: No one told you to hit the road or that you aren’t welcome. Just that your premise may be rejected or disagreed with.

Better re-read the thread… you’re wrong.

I say: Again, very condescending. You may be here to learn something yourself, don’t assume he “sent you here” to do anything else.

I always learn… every time He sends me but I don’t think you have anything in your heart I want to. Just venom.

I say: Oh Please! …and that doesn’t sound condescending? Quoting the scripture now?

And finally the mask comes off and you are revealed. So you don’t like me speaking the word of God around here? See how you like this:

“To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts”

“Please tell me when I said you were not free to express your views.”

Again I am being misquoted. I did not say that you personally said that. What I did say is that you “should be just as indignant about my freedom of expression” (being suppressed) as you say you are “to let TWIers of whatever stage in their lives say what they think” because I am a “TWIer of whatever stage in my life” saying what I think, but when I post my opinion, that God should be INcluded, rather than PREcluded or EXcluded, I get all this “Hey, this isn’t a Christian forum!” and “You’re not welcome!”, “Hit the road!”, “Go somewhere else!” and “You have an agenda!” stuff. I can understand that some here may be kinda paranoid. Maybe they think I’m some waybrain spy or something. Well, I can’t control what people think. All I can do is stand my ground.

“What I did was disagree with some of your views - disagreement is not the same as forbidding -- just as not promoting is not the same as precluding.”

Really? Is that what you think you were doing? Actually, what you did was, besides misquoting me, you accused me of a) having a personal agenda, b) being deceptive and c) dictating to others, none of which is true. You're not disagreeing with me directly as in “I disagree because… and this is what I think is the truth” but, instead attacking me personally with misquotes and false accusations. You are not the only one, there are several and these are exactly the type of methods twi uses to M & A people and I, for one, won’t put up with it. This is what I was referring to in my original post and, ironically, it’s been very well demonstrated on this thread ever since I posted it. If you can’t “disagree” with me without misquoting me and making false accusations then I think maybe you need to take an honest look at yourself.

As for the point you were (I think) trying to make, I strongly disagree. The parties involved for every single “TWIer of whatever stage in their life” are three. Us, twi and God. He was there when the scriptures were being twisted and believers were being used and abused. He was there when people were suffering. He is also here. He has a vested interest. So my statement stands; to not include God in the picture is to preclude God and if anyone thinks He doesn’t know or care what’s going on here, they need to think again.

God first

Beloved Beloved free2love

God loves you my dear friend

WOW I enjoy that loving words from your heart

thank you my dear friend

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Yes! God first!

What a blessing you are!

God bless you richly in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ

and may the love of God abound in you always! :)

As I’m sure you know, Hosea says that God’s own “are destroyed for lack of knowledge”. It was a real breakthrough for me the day I first read that. It’s absolutely true.

See, I’m the firstborn son of a devout Irish Catholic father who died when I was only 12yrs old. We’d never missed Sunday mass and naturally us kids all got our daily dose of mass and catechism in Catholic school which is all to say we were fully instructed and faithful (brainwashed) to the church because we loved and followed our dad. At the funeral the monsignor (head-honcho priest) came up to me and, looked down at me, put his hand on my shoulder and said “Son, it was God’s will”. The bad thing, the really sad thing is that I believed him. I bought it, hook line and sinker and, because I did, my response was to walk out of that church and never go back and to hate God and anyone who tried to talk to me about God. I guess you could say that was my first experience being misled by a cult. It also showed me a pattern, at least in hindsight. When a cult misleads you the true desired end is to turn you away from and, if possible, against God. It may look like they’re after money or sex or power but pay it no mind for they “know not what they do”. The true intent of the spirit that controls them is to turn your heart away from God.

(Lots of hairy stuff came after that, sex, drugs, rock and roll, blah, blah, blah and then…) When I first joined twi, 18 daredevil years later, I read that verse, among many others, including the first chapter of Job, and the answer came clear. a) I found out that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all and found out who really causes death and destruction and b) I found the reason my Catholic father died at the age of 41 was ignorance of the word of God because his church left him ignorant and defenseless.

Since I left twi God has taught me many more things they kind of skipped over or didn’t know. One of the biggest things is as follows: First, you have to realize the basis of all paganism is all about benefiting yourself. Likewise, in the OT when the spiritless Israelites followed our Father, God, it was all about faith in what God would do for them and faithfulness to obey Him. i.e.: Faith was the issue.

Now, since Pentecost, things are different and all these faith-teaching churches like the ones many of us grew up in, twi, Joyce Meyer and that scary kid, Joel Osteen are all barking up the wrong tree because faith is no longer the issue. The spirit-filled believer has “the mind of Christ” and all the faith anyone could ever need and we don’t need anyone to tell us how to believe, what to believe, that we’re not believing or that we’re believing wrongly. Another thing that’s really important is that it’s not all about getting stuff for your self. The main issue is this: Love. God is love and only those born of His spirit are capable of love because He dwells in them and works in them to will and to do of His good pleasure. Twi gave us a lot of the parts and pieces but then they soured the whole thing (made God's word of none effect) by teaching and making the main point out to be the “law of believing”. They are wrong and, at least IMO, this is the first and foremost issue wherein they have led us wrong.

God is not about making people rich. God is about teaching His people to love. Remember the teaching on “renewed mind”? Well, they talked about it in the context of ‘metamorphing’ into a being of enormous faith… e.g.: “the athlete of the spirit”. They taught that if you renewed your mind you would see all the ‘abundant life’ results they said were available. That’s just scripture-twisting, that’s all. In the first place we do not renew our own mind, God does it! …and the true metamorphosis that takes place is changing from the hard-hearted, dog-eat-dog, watchin’ out for #1 babe to ‘perfect’, (mature) loving, soft-hearted, grown children, walking with our Father in love, carrying out the ministry of reconciliation.

It’s amazing how wonderful the word of God becomes when you take off the rose-colored twi “God wants you rich – positive thinking” glasses and read it for what it really says. There is no guarantee of financial success. All those verses they pointed out that they said were promising us anything and everything were either talking about reimbursing the resources we gave out in our walk of love or the tremendous miracle results God will bring to bare when we are ministering to His people in His name. This might be in a prestige job with a six-figure income or flipping burgers, on skid row or in prison. God will send you where He sends you. It makes no difference. The true treasure we have in these earthen vessels is love. Another little point twi neglected to teach us, well, me at least, is that little clause Jesus taught; To pray for “Thy will be done…”. No, twi taught us all about focusing our camera, etc., so we could get what WE want. What about God’s plan? What about what He wants?

Loving your neighbor as yourself or loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength have both been cited as the new and/or greatest commandment but in John 15, a tremendous chapter containing Jesus’ last instructions to His apostles, most of which they wouldn’t even understand until Pentecost, we find this, the true new and greatest commandment:

“9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.”

People get freaked out when I say “God works in me” or “God told me”. I get freaked out that they don’t. As I said in another thread, there is no hierarchy in the body of Christ. There is one Lord and then you. No other Lord over you, no ‘father in the word'. That goes for all of us. Nothing more or less special about any of us. That stuff went out with the OT when only the prophets had the spirit and had to tell people what God had to say because he/she was the only one that could hear God. Now, of course, He is in all of us so hierarchy is no longer needed. He can move in or speak to any of us who are indwelt by His spirit.

This is the lack of knowledge I was talking about. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

God Bless

It would appear to me that you definitely have a personal agenda geared toward how I and perhaps others on this board should display our commitment as Christians.

“Personal agenda”? Please tell me what you’re referring to by that. I don’t recall talking about anyone’s commitment as a Christian or displaying same. I didn’t mean what I originally said to criticize you or anyone personally. It’s just the way I see things… my opinion. So if you disagree, fine. Don’t I still have a right to state it? I mean, from what you stated you certainly don’t want me to “tip-toe around”, do you? I happen to agree with you. I just believe it should apply to my views as well as yours. All these misquotes and false accusations from you and others really leave a sour taste after your statements in defense of the injured.

I don't run around promoting that everyone eat breakfast in my little sphere of influence in this life but my not promoting it in no way precludes the people I know from eating breakfast.

To continue to assert that not promoting God precludes God points, IMO, not to whether God is precluded, but more to your unwillingness to grant to your fellow posters their God given right of freedom of choice.

I have no interest in hindering anyone’s freedom nor have I tried to do so. However my freedom to express my views is being challenged at every turn. It really makes you seem to be a hypocrite. Did you mean what you said? If so instead of attacking me you should be just as indignant about my freedom of expression.

In fact, let me give your words back to you… “Balderdash, If you want to disagree with my viewpoint, Great. If you want to post your own ,vastly different experiences , great. If you want me to tiptoe around you and your... stance so as not to hurt your "itty Bitty Feelers" forgidaboutdit!!!”

When someone uses the "God is working in me to change you" line...

I didn’t say that. I said that God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure. The “to change you” you added.

I said: I’d like to know… even though it says this site is for former twi members at any stage of recovery, even if their still prisoners in the belly of the twi beast yet it appears if someone is a standing Christian with the nerve to actually have something to say, they’re suddenly not welcome. This seems to me the height of hypocrisy.

-You said: If you really want to know, it is obvious that this is not an offshoot of TWI where everybody sits around and talks about God. Nor is it a Christian site.

Never said it was.

-You said: You are the one who stated that God is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure here.

Only because it’s the truth.

-You said: It is a terrible mind set that TWI put us in, that we feel we have to swoop into any circumstance and "save" everybody from their wrong thinking. My thinking is more right now than it has ever been.

Really? Hmmmm… well, that’s good but I never said anything about saving anyone. I said many here need healing. I’m not acting out of any terrible twi mindset. That’s an assumption on your part. I told you, God is working in me… and I do what he directs me to do …whether anyone likes it or not.

-I said: Even though it says this site is for former twi members at any stage of recovery, even if their still prisoners in the belly of the twi beast yet it appears if someone is a standing Christian with the nerve to actually have something to say,

-You said: There are lots of standing Christians on this board who have had the nerve to say a lot of things about a lot of things. Who are you to assume that people who post here are not "standing Christians"?

I did not “assume” any such thing. Where did I say there are no standing Christians? I didn’t. I was speaking of my own experience.

-You said: What is your idea of a standing Christian? See, these are the kinds of things you are assuming.

What are you talking about? How would you know what I’m thinking? Aren’t YOU the one who is assuming?

-You said: It may not be TWI type of Christianity that you are used to, but it is Christianity.

More assuming. What do you mean saying the “TWI type of Christianity that you are used to”??? Where did you get that? I left twi twenty years ago. I couldn’t sit through a twi fellowship any more than I could put up with a Catholic mass.

-You said: …and others don't want a thing to do with God anymore.

Fine. I don’t care. That’s their prerogative. I’m not trying to force anything on anyone. For 18yrs if my life I hated God. Been there, done that, wrote a book about it.

-You said: It's not Christianity so much, but it is the ego with which you come across to me, that you are here to save us despite us.

Ok, I can accept that but the rest is hooey. You’re entitled to your opinion but you are mistaken. I’ve not had anything to do with twi for twenty years and I go where God sends me and I say what I say and I do what I do because he inspires me. (and as far as I’m concerned that’s normal) not because of ego. Where did I say I’m here to save anyone?

-I said: They’re suddenly not welcome. This seems to me the height of hypocrisy. I’m sorry but that’s how I feel about people telling me “You can’t say that”.

-You said: Nobody has said that you "can't say that"

OK, I’ll correct that. That’s how I feel about anyone trying to dictate what I can or cannot say. Better?

-You said: Everyone is welcome I presume. Hey they let me be here But what you say may be challenged.

Fine! Challenge what I say all you want, but not my right to say it. I have been told I have opinions and I assume. Well, tough. Show me one person, any person on this board that doesn’t assume or have opinions. I will assume and opine til the cows come home all I want and I will say what I have to say.

-You said: The point is, don't assume we are all here because we need "saving".

*now banging my head on the counter and tearing what little hair I have left out* I NEVER said I was trying to save anyone, so that’s YOU assuming isn’t it?

-I said: What I did say is that “I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.” Maybe I’m right, maybe not, but what if…? It seems, thanks to twi, many here seem convinced in their heart of hearts that God is not there for them. That is the only real issue, not some supposed ego trip on my part to say I’m such a much. The point is, God is here.

-You said: Well my belief is that God is everywhere. And if there are some here that seemed convinced that God is not there for them, I think God is big enough to work that out with THEM.

OK so why don’t you ask Him? I never know why He sends me nor for whom. I just go. This is how my life has been for a long, long time.

-You said: If you want to do some really neat Christian stuff, then go to your local soup kitchen and feed the hungry, volunteer at your local Goodwill to help cloth them, help the guy at work who needs some help with his electric bill.......these are very humble and fulfilling activities that one can do for God.

What in the world makes you think I don’t? You are assuming.

-You said: I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, I know I feel that way. If you are here to do that, good luck. But don't be surprised if you get some resistance, because a lot of us aren't here for that.

-I said: Well, don’t be surprised if I resist right back. Honestly, I can't believe such open discrimination is allowed by this board. Don't they stand up for anything? What gives anyone more right to say what's on their mind than I? I just don't get it.

-You said: Resist away. I am sorry you felt that that means you can't say what's on your mind.

Well, then maybe you could please stop hassling me about it? Sheesh! LoL! (kidding)

-You said: Just remember that people here don't have to agree with you. Again, another assumption on your part when you say "Don't people stand up for anything? A lot of us stand up for a lot of things. If you stick around you will see that

I hope so. Partly what I see in some is the same kind of oppression I saw from twi, especially from the interim corps they used to send out here to do their wow year by taking over the whole area. Maybe some here haven’t changed so much as they think. (present company excepted of course)

What really bugs me is, personally, I think you’re pretty cool and worthwhile to talk with and we gotta waste our time debating this stuff? Many people have responded positively to me and I feel I can talk with them as I do with you. Others have assumed things about me that aren’t true and spent a lot of effort to misquote me, criticize me, censor me and tell me how I must speak, think and behave or else I can just hit the road because I am not welcome, even though this is contrary to the stated goals of this board. They seem to be hard hearted and proud of it. Personally, I would recommend they reconsider but, hey, they got a right. They are entitled to their opinion, I am entitled to mine but I have not tried to dictate anything to anyone. I just expressed my opinion which they can take or leave.

To clarify, hopefully for the last time, I am not talking about people pouring their hearts out because of the betrayal and abuse they received at the hand of twi. As I mentioned before, I have been around and this board is the best place I’ve seen, at least so far, for those who are hurting to chill, speak their mind and heal (or not) if that’s what they want and I thank God for it. I agree wholeheartedly with the original poster that no one should hassle or limit them in any way. I also disagreed with her in ways I’ve stated. I never said otherwise nor did I say I was here to ‘save’ anyone. On the hopeful side, I suspect some of the flak I’ve been getting is from people who feel protective of others who are suffering and I can appreciate that. …they might want to stop and consider that maybe they’re wrongly accusing me, and maybe, just maybe, my being here is a good thing. If you don’t believe that’s true, ask God.

Look, this isn’t going to change. If anyone has any complaints about me they should immediately go to my Boss and complain because He is responsible for my being here. I am what God has made me to be and I don’t apologize to anyone for it. He works in me to will and to do of His good pleasure and it’s been that way for a good, long time. As a matter of truth this is supposed to be normal for Christians to such an extent that my question is: “Why are you surprised? You mean He doesn’t work in you???” I can’t change what I am, nor would I want to. That’s the reality.

“Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye, for I cannot but speak the things which I have seen and heard”

"I understand. Sorry. That’s just how I talk. I said God is working in me, not you. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings."

No problem free - all is well. I certainly have been enjoying my freedom to explore God in my own way and time. People 'round these parts are a little gun shy about someone coming on to the board and deciding they are here to "save us from ourselves".

I never said anything regarding "save us from ourselves", did I? But I’d like to know… even though it says this site is for former twi members at any stage of recovery, even if their still prisoners in the belly of the twi beast yet it appears if someone is a standing Christian with the nerve to actually have something to say, they’re suddenly not welcome. This seems to me the height of hypocrisy. I’m sorry but that’s how I feel about people telling me “You can’t say that”.

What I did say is that “I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.” Maybe I’m right, maybe not, but what if…? It seems, thanks to twi, many here seem convinced in their heart of hearts that God is not there for them. That is the only real issue, not some supposed ego trip on my part to say I’m such a much. The point is, God is here.

I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, I know I feel that way. If you are here to do that, good luck. But don't be surprised if you get some resistance, because a lot of us aren't here for that.

Well, don’t be surprised if I resist right back. :) Honestly, I can't believe such open discrimination is allowed by this board. Don't they stand up for anything? What gives anyone more right to say what's on their mind than I? I just don't get it.

"What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us!"

Hope you don't mind my butting in with my two cents.

I would like to believe the "God is with us and will never forsakes us". However, in my own life, I have struggled daily to keep that thought in the front of my brain.

I was "raised" in a church before joining TWI. I even flirted with Jehovah's Witness before TWI as well. I always felt I had a bedrock foundational belief (pardon the phrase) that I knew there was a loving God and He was protecting me.

Well, the only thing I can truly say is-I'm not dead. But the things I endured both before, during, and after TWI have caused me to question the concept of God. And I can guarantee that it was my TWI experience that truly put me on shaky ground.

Seeing what happened to my friends, my family, and others in the world-how do you explain it? Having faith that God knows what he's doing? Hmmm......so a child is kidnapped, shot and burned alive (which happened to friend's daughter recently)...where was God in that?

So all I have left is faith-faith that is evidence not seen. That keeps me praying, keeps me moving forward, keeps me sane. I guess I've gotten to the "just in case" mode of survival. That's not the best way to live, I know, but it seems to be all I have left-and it's not always enough.

Wow, what a heart sharing! Thank you for the honesty. My experience was somewhat different.

As I’m sure you know, Hosea says that God’s own “are destroyed for lack of knowledge” It was a real breakthrough the day I first read that. It’s absolutely true.

See, I’m the firstborn son of a devout Irish Catholic father who died when I was 12yrs old. We’d never missed Sunday mass and naturally us kids all got our daily dose of mass and catechism in Catholic school which is all to say we were fully instructed and faithful (brainwashed) to the church because we loved and followed out dad. At the funeral the monsignor came up to me, looked down at me and put his hand on my shoulder and said “Son, it was God’s will”. The bad part, the really sad part is that I believed him. I bought it hook line and sinker and, because I did, my response was to walk out of that church and never go back and to hate God and anyone who tried to talk to me about God.

When I first joined twi, 18 daredevil years later, I read that verse, among many others, including the first chapter of Job, and the answer came clear. a) I found out that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all and I found out who really causes death and destruction and b) I found the reason my Catholic father died at the age of 41 was ignorance of the word of God because his church left him that way. I guess you could say that was my first experience being misled by a cult.

Since I left twi God has taught me many things they kind of skipped over or didn’t know. One of the biggest things is as follows: first, you have to realize the basis of all paganism is all about benefiting yourself. Likewise, in the OT when spiritless men followed our Father, God, it was all about faith in what God would do for them and faithfulness to obey Him.

Now things are different and all these faith-teaching churches like the ones you and I grew up in, the jw’s, twi, Joyce Meyer and that scary kid, Joel Osteen are all barking up the wrong tree because faith is no longer the issue. The spirit-filled believer has “the mind of Christ” and all the faith anyone could ever need and we don’t need anyone to tell us how to believe, what to believe, that we’re not believing or that we’re believing wrongly. Another thing that’s really important is that it’s not about getting something for your self. The main issue is this: Love. God is love and only those born of His spirit are capable of love because He dwells in them and works in them to will and to do of His good pleasure. Twi gave us a lot of the parts and pieces but then they soured the whole thing (made of none effect) by teaching and making the main point the “law of believing”. They are wrong and this is the first and foremost issue wherein they have led us wrong.

God is not about making people rich. God is about teaching people to love. Remember the teaching on “renewed mind”? Well, they talked about it in the context of ‘metamorphing’ into a being of enormous faith… that if you renewed your mind you would see all the ‘abundant life’ results they said were available. That’s just scripture-twisting, that’s all. In the first place we do not renew our own mind, God does! …and the true metamorphosis that takes place is changing from the hard-hearted, dog-eat-dog, watchin’ out for #1 babe to ‘perfect’, (mature) loving, soft-hearted, grown children, walking with our Father in love, carrying out the ministry of reconciliation. It’s amazing how wonderful the word of God becomes when you take off the rose-colored twi “God wants you rich – positive thinking” glasses and read it for what it really says. There is no guarantee of financial success. All those verses they pointed out that they said were promising us anything and everything were either talking about reimbursing the resources we gave out in our walk of love or the tremendous miracle results God will bring to bare when we are ministering to His people in His name. This might be in a prestige job with a six-figure income or flipping burgers, on skid row or in prison. God will send you where He sends you. It makes no difference. The true treasure we have in these earthen vessels is love. Another little point twi neglected to teach us, well, me at least, is that little clause Jesus taught; To pray for “Thy will be done…”. No, they taught us all about focusing our camera, etc., so we could get what WE want. What about God’s plan? What about what He wants?

Loving your neighbor as yourself or loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength have both been cited as the new and/or greatest commandment but in John 15, a tremendous chapter full of Jesus’ last instructions to His apostles, most of which they wouldn’t understand until Pentecost, we find this, the true new and greatest commandment:

“9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.”

People get freaked out when I say “God works in me” or “God told me”. I get freaked out that they don’t. As I said in another thread, there is no hierarchy in the body of Christ. There is one Lord and then you. No other Lord over you, no ‘father in the word'. That goes for all of us. Nothing more or less special about any of us. That stuff went out with the OT when only the prophets had the spirit and had to tell people what God had to say because he/she was the only one that could hear God. Now, of course, He is in all of us so hierarchy is no longer needed. He can move in or speak to any of us who are indwelt by His spirit.

This is the lack of knowledge I was talking about. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

God Bless

“What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us!”

Now THAT is something that I can attempt to wrap my brain around.

I have had to wonder since leaving twi... where was God’s guidance and protection??

If there even IS a God

if those who were honestly seeking him found themselves in a cult that simply twisted scriptures to get us to achieve their own ends?? ...All of the betrayal, all of the suffering inflicted on people...many whom were already struggling from difficult lives.

Well said.

I dunno the *Joseph* scenario is pretty good.

What I see in the story of Joseph is that he must have felt so alone, so betrayed and so victimized… and yet we see God working in him and with him for, what? 30yrs? And then after all he went through, everything turns out to have “worked together for good” for him in the form of a huge victory. God was with him all the time, even when it seemed all was lost.