cara

Dear Java Jane,

I just wanted to say that I think you write really well, conveying a lot in few words, and as a big mystery fan wish you the best with your book.

Not sure I can add anything - I never thought of myself as committed, in that I never went WOW or in the corps or gave up on normal relationships with my family and I kept making "non-believer" friends, but then I did stay involved a long time, partly because of the fun I'd had at times, especially in the earlier years, partly because I did keep finding nuggets in what I heard as time went on, but often because I felt I had to show up. Sometimes it was just a relatively undistracted time to read all the other verses on the page while tuning out the speaker. A point was reached fairly early on when I didn't even want to invite anyone because of all the explaining I would have to do later about behavior or jargon, but it took a long time for all the things that puzzled me to add up to my wanting to get away.

Happy Christmas everyone and all the best for the New Year.

I enjoyed this time growing up, the candle in the window, the walk in daylight and then hours being snug at home. I spent it with the family as often as I could during the TWI years when I lived far away from them and was always happy to get there and lose the stress of having to behave a certain way when eating with the TWIers.

This year we had hours on the couch to watch Leonard Cohen's 2013 concert and "Lover, lover, lover" is playing in my head now - what a song and performance:

'I asked my father,

I said, "Father change my name."

The one I'm using now it's covered up

with fear and filth and cowardice and shame".

Ah but lover, lover, lover, lover, lover, lover, lover come back to me,

yes and lover, lover, lover, lover, lover, lover, lover come back to me.

He said, "I locked you in this body,

I meant it as a kind of trial.

You can use it for a weapon,

or to make some woman smile."

..... '

and so on .... This is from an earlier year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14lKBKNS6LU

(Just wanted to share a little from a great gift)

Think about this.......what if there were no GreaseSpot Forums to comment?

What if.....there were just opposing articles of twi-doctrine?

What if, after leaving twi, you didn't have this wide-range source of opposition to twi?

Do others' comments, reflections, insights, and experiences aid your recover?

Or, do these discussions appear to be rude and bitter and hyperbole?

Just was wondering.......after reading this article Reader Comments

Others' comments and insights and experiences have definitely helped. The rude and bitter bits I skim through. I just had a quick look through your added article, and the difference is that I read here and find experiences that correspond to mine, insights that make me think about what I observed myself, and comments that I may or may not agree with but can understand. Thanks again to you all.

The "false pretences" are exactly right in this case. He was abusive before they were married (isolation from her family, monitoring of every call, email, and Facebook activity, constant accusations of cheating if she didn't answer her phone or left a text message unanswered for more than a minute. When she did get to a family gathering her phone would go off every five minutes with texts from this guy.). She was ready to leave him, but then he got involved with this church and suddenly did a 180. They got married a couple of months later in that church. When I got there and the ceremony started I started having flashbacks to twi. The sermon was about how wives needed to submit to their husbands... and an advertisement for the church. A church member tried to take my fidgety daughter out of the church without my permission (my kid was with her grandpa playing on the floor on an outer aisle of the church - not disturbing anyone. She was three at the time and the service had already lasted over an hour and a half.). At that point I decided to go outside with her and calm myself down - and the ushers tried to tell me I couldn't leave. I did anyway....

Anyways... I figured I would stay out of it unless asked to help. She is in a difficult situation. Now he is back to his controlling of her every move even with family since it has become evident that none of us are interested in converting. And now he has the sanctioning of the church and the Bible to help control her.

It makes me sad.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

Hey JJ, you've listed a lot of "red flags." This man sounds dangerous to me.

I first started reading because I googled TWI after hearing that someone had died. It was disturbing reading, but I had no trouble accepting people's stories as they brought up memories that fitted. I've had some really good laughs here, but I check back mostly for food for thought - have to say it's comforting to see so many kind survivors.

quote: I always find it ironic how you, johniam, come to wierwille's defense.

Jesus did yell at Peter. He called him satan for impact. There's plenty of scripture in which it plainly says there was a spirit present when Jesus confronted it. Not when he said to peter get thee behind me satan. Perhaps YOU are the one who is twisting scripture. Sometimes people say blasphemous things because there's a spirit present; other times people say things because they have bad thinking habits and there doesn't have to be a spirit present.

Personally, I don't like being yelled at and I don't like yelling at people.

Maybe he was just asking him to stop being an adversary or accuser (just checked my brilliant dictionary that gives word roots).?

Dear ex-c, sorry about whatever hell it is.

I remember them saying that you don't get to the top without spirit.

According to TWI thinking, anyone who publicly advocated peace and harmony had to be a "seed boy".

Oh, the horrors of it all!

Ohhhh! I've been wondering about complaints I'd heard about this man - the only explanation (without details) I was ever offered was the communist one, which to me did not automatically make him evil. Another of those times when I just didn't think it worth it to keep asking questions, when any "discussion" would end with "it is said (by some higher-up)."

I just went and browsed around at John Lynn's website. In the Statement of Beliefs, it reads in part, "It is possible to understand each verse by applying logic and the sound linguistic principles of biblical interpretation in conjunction with the spirit of God in us."

Naten00 wrote "I find it comical I clicked on the link and the first thing that comes up is the Anti- Santa Christmas Jargon same stuff we are discussing on another thread."

What I thought was weird was the claim that Santa Claus is a caricature of God - I don't remember hearing that one before, though maybe I just didn't pick up the implications of the different grumblings I heard. Doesn't he know about Saint Nicholas? (Trying to add link to thread: ). Would he ever think of looking something up? I think that he must have watched Miracle on somethingth Street too much, where the Santa character is called Kris Kringle (a mangling of Christkindl, the Christ child) and then got confused. Or am I confused?

quote:

Instead of being thankful and enjoying your guaranteed eternal life and the down payment gift of holy spirit, you want to wallow in shame and bitterness for the rest of your days. Glad it's you and not me.

...

A sexual predator is a sexual predator PERIOD???? No. Interesting that a few years ago a woman who consentually had sex with VP multiple times was here. Didn't take long for venemous posters to run her off. Just like black democrats are with Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain. Just like feminists are with Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann. Like I said, glad it's you and not me.

I don't think I'm wallowing when I read your post and rejoice that I don't have to go around covered in a veil and subject to all those laws, that I've been just as liberated as a man has, that there is neither male nor female etc, that we have equal access to our Father and that we don't have to take that rubbish. "God doesn't have a problem with men being ..." - my breath leaves me just reading that sentence, picturing again those "opportunistic" randy old goats.

Feminists are against SP and MB because they're women? You make your arguments in such broad strokes that I'm not sure what you're saying, and as to your Joe Fair extrapolation, that makes no sense from any angle.

And as to that WC6 man, even if he'd been working 18-20 or more hours straight for a week, that still wouldn't be an excuse for falling asleep.

(Nor for more humane working hours.)

However, there is no condemnation to those who fall asleep and therefore fall out of windows and die. Those ones can be raised from the dead (Acts 20:9-12).

Twinky, that made me laugh.

This topic makes my blood boil. When I hear of people who take advantage of their age/strength/authority to force others, I think of them as the vilest cowards who should go off and pick on someone their own size and sickness. I suppose they don't want to look in that mirror.

... do chara.

(Trying to change my name but Rumpelstiltskin is not yet approved and I don't want to bug the administrators.)

WHAT a SHOCKER lol thanks penworks :)

--

what's this movie about the way?

As far as I remember from what I read, it's a movie with Martin Sheen, made (directed?) by his son Emilio, about a father whose son dies on the walk and who decides to finish it off himself on the son's behalf.

quote: Just a question, who are "those people"?

quote: I can't really figure it out but it seems to me that the authentic self is also included in our spiritual life, in how the spirit communicates with our minds, in whether our "gut feelings" are valid or it's more a cerebral awareness.

I think if it's a woman we call it 'intuition', but if it's a man we call it 'gut feelings'. Sometimes it's Christ's gut feelings/intuition behind our's. It can be either one (cerebral or spiritual). Remember when the rich guy (Matt.19:16) said to Jesus "good master, how do I get eternal life"? Jesus was contrary to him. He (Jesus) didn't need revelation to know the guy was being a phony. Being human, Jesus had a BS meter like everybody else. That was cerebral. Jesus DID need revelation to tell the guy to sell all he had and give to the poor. That would be word of wisdom. If the guy had done that he either would have been blessed enough to absorb the loss of his goods and/or he would have gotten more earthly riches back. Not Jesus' problem the guy made the wrong choice.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure that it's an either/or, think it might be a matter of where our reception is best, could be both - a certain feeling that might have come via a natural sense might lead me to check in mentally, I don't know but I'm not worrying about it. Maybe the fuzziness suits me whereas others need it more defined, think God can work with us all, it's a body after all, not an army, ha, ha. That's what I meant (I think, fuzzily) about the authentic selves, that we're allowed to be different and ourselves, and maybe when we are the reception works best. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not abandoned.

Oh, a picky ps, but to me it's a gut feeling and I'm one of those females - maybe I'm stomach-centered.

I called "the way" today and asked them if the movie that's out called "The Way" is about "the way". "Not that I'm aware of" was the answer. Think she would know if it was? I'm surprised "the way" doesn't have a lawsuit pending; or maybe they do!

I'm looking forward to seeing that movie (about el camino to Santiago de Compostela/Jakobsweg/St. James' way etc) , was recently talking to someone who walked from France on the pilgrim way west and said it changed his life. Think I'd like to do part myself. There's something about being outside and moving that lets conversation ebb and flow easily, and apparently there's lots of welcome and help along the way. People of diverse ages and beliefs do it. Think those ways have been around a loooong time.

There are 3 references in Kris' book to an "original self". That everybody has an original self. Really? Where and when did we get this 'original self'? Conception? Birth? Puberty? Is it part of our DNA? How do we care for this 'original self'? Yoga? Therapy? Education? LSD? Different belief system, different "real you".

In the forward, Lorna Goldberg MSW/LCSW (whatever that is) says her "old original self" (later called her 'creative authentic self') was suppressed.Her belief system includes where she got her education. In the therapy notes immediately before chapter 12 she is asked "so you ignored yourself?" There's that self again. On the back of the book, a Kathryn Harrison says she "denied and betrayed" her self. Her belief system no doubt includes some form of education/therapy. The 2 povs are no different.

In TWI, believing that the real you is Christ in you caused some people to walk in love and caused other people to dangle a carrot in front of themself that would never be realized. In whatever education/therapy system Kris and her peers refer to, the real you is your old original creative authentic self, which causes some to think more spontaneously and dangles a carrot in front of others.

Personally, I don't believe in Christ in you OR old original self as a constant reality. I believe in the old man nature which includes death, the equalizer. Christ in you DELIBERATELY deals with the old man nature until death. So does education/therapy, howbeit unwittingly. But neither belief system is morally superior to the other.

The writers of the article are just as biased as any fundamentalist/evangelical they could name. They selectively reason and dismiss reason as they see fit just as much as the people they criticize. I call them the more intolerent.

About this "original self," I haven't read the book but am interested. Is it possible that this is equivalent to what VPW describes as "what makes you, you," ie the soul? I'm honestly interested, because something that used to bother me was the dismissal any time I brought it up of personality differences (which I admit turned out not to be very often), but I thought it a valid issue. How often was a problem between people due to differences in how they communicated or reacted rather than a doctinal difference that had to be dealt with sharply. Why would people gravitate towards certain kinds of verses or kinds of leaders/leadership? I could agree that the authentic self was suppressed as long as I tried to behave like the people I admired or made myself obey and do things that really, really seemed wrong to me. I can't really figure it out but it seems to me that the authentic self is also included in our spiritual life, in how the spirit communicates with our minds, in whether our "gut feelings" are valid or it's more a cerebral awareness. But I haven't read the book.

PS Hello to everybody. I'm still enjoying reading.

I see it as we do the work in the domain we're responsible for, God does His. His will will always reign, whether I like it or not so it's better to get used to it and the sooner I do, the better for me....

... A person might say "I looked at the tornado and rebuked it in the name of Jesus Christ and it went the opposite direction and did no damage".....I get that but what's happening there is much What God does, shows, reveals, gives, takes, moves, puts in our paths and brings to us and those around us - that's Him. Promises of the Word? Sure. Claim them? Go for it. Declare we produced the results because of our believing? That well's going to go dry real quick. Look at the Way - dust bowl.

Within that is what I call the "spiritually serendipitous" life lived. Good is all around us all the time, like a river of goodness.

Good swimmer or bad, it's always good to get wet....

"Spiritually serendipitous" - brilliant. Thank you very much for the great reply, socks. I suppose I was inventing a problem with words, saying that I think "limiting God" sounds like we're stronger than him and we should describe it some other way, when the reality of the phrase is understood perfectly well. Oh no, I was being like them, telling people to scratch out "if" and write in "since"!

So let me get this straight. VPW left Ohio on July 5th, a Monday and probably arrived at Pike's Peak on Wednesday the 7th. He got his doctorate degree on Wednesday the 28th, 15 working days later. And at the same time teaching "Radio Preaching Techniques" and "Peter the Preacher".

A truly rigorous course of study. It's almost as impressive as inventing the hook shot. Or maybe he could only stay as long as his money held out.

Maybe that was the viva voce part, the oral exam, those days there in person?

OB, "confidence" is another good word to use there.

Myself, I shy away from anything like the "believing/faith" type of argument, which isn't an argument really but another way of causing division in the Body by teaching something that ... isn't really there. More of "doctor's" superior knowledge.

What's left to teach? VPW was all about "gimme the money."

Compare and contrast with George Muller, who dismissed people for not having complete confidence that God would meet needs - without money. That same George Muller, whose legacy survives today, whose "children" are still living and thankful for his life.

Muller's bold believing/confidence is something we could really learn from.

He did what the book said - not said what he said the book said.

And Socks wrote: Acceptance is a much more passive term but describes man's role better. And it gets closer to the true relationship that man has to have with Christ than "pistis" being believing and that being an effort. The Way focuses on a single english word. Trust and confidence in the thing believed in, is the core meaning. There's no push that comes from man's part in that, it's the relinquishing of pushing that forms real faith.

These posts and Opera Budff's remind me that every now and again i wonder about that phrase "are you limiting God?" I know what was meant, ie, in your own life not letting him help or telling Him how he should help, but still, it seems like the lingo mentioned about, a little arrogant - have any of you got words of wisdom on this one?

And the Advanced Class was mentioned above - this is off topic, I think, but one thing I remember from the video part of the class was VPW imitating the person who reminded him of a fox, and the spiritual significance. I'm still back in 2007 on the threads and on page 63, and when reading some of these stories re young girls I picture those old coots as a bunch of old billygoats, to mix my animal metaphors.

That's awful nice of you, Ex-c - and I'm just gathering info mostly, and enjoying the posters, not contributing much, just buying the odd coffee since I got that free rhubarb pie from Waysider. Very glad the place is still open. To all, "glad to be going your way":

With you and the HamWay boys and ... and ... all, it's a Party. Who couldn't say "I've got a madman of my own to contend with, cursing in the cave of my skull:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ourscJeIJbA

Funny how that happens, sir socks. You're funny ("the Coco Mind Meld lives") - siriusly. And today I cried at page 5 - up to page 5 (inc) is the essence of that thread, i think.

Incredibly quaint, unnecessary and out of place it was one of those efforts VPW made to try and bring the Way's status up to - I dunno, some level of importance he held in his mind I guess. To me, it kind of characterized that have a tea-party-ladies-that's-what-women-do 50's mentality that mixed into Wayfer culture and an effort to inform the activities with the same kind of hoo haw that the Big Boys do. Amongst a group of people who all basically knew each other it set a level of formality to events that seemed just - weird, to me, for want of a better word. Yet I suppose it had it's function and helped to up the game for all us neanderthals who could manage to get to things without a guide and just sit down and thought that was okay.

The Coco Chronicles thread was a hoot, agreed.

That's funny again, "maybe she got lost easy." Some husbands I've met acted like they had a double dose and the wives couldn't do anything on their own - maybe that came from this 50s' mentality.

This reference to protocol reminded me of how, in our first year of TWI association, when all the freedom from tradition that we heard about was exciting, a friend asked me why they had the ceremony and robing in an ordination that we'd seen - I was a whole month or two months older than her, class-wise, and I didn't know (hope I didn't get defensive) but thought I might find out some day. I can understand wanting to show respect, and I know a big deal was made of salt, but the overall aspect to newish people was an awful lot like a new version of traditions that were supposedly beneath our dignity - the explanation of the colors of the robes, the walk up the aisle while everyone stood, that's as much as I remember, but I'm amazed I remember that much.

Year 2027 advised me to enjoy reading. Today I was on page 64 of "about the way" and started reading the thread about "mrs. W**rwil**'s po0dle" and had to stop on page 3 with tears in my eyes. Sometimes after reading here I'm disturbed enough that the threat about catching a little "virus" crosses my mind, but then there are these posts that make me laugh and I could never explain to anyone around why they are funny. I should be keeping notes about where they are. Thanks again, everybody.

Waysider, i love her version, hadn't seen the pictures with it before. Thinking of her put emmylou singing "sweet old world" into my head (though a different kind of parting). Must stop or I'll be in bits. Thanks.

Interesting stuff, Roy....Hope ya got your flame-proof undies on.

Ha, ha. I've just been reading the WOW stories and now this - is everyone obsessed with their bits and pieces, and other people's?

Edited to say that by "everyone," I don't mean everyone.

Thanks for the kindness you bring into the world. You are a treasure.

Hope your birthday was happy and that your new year brings many wonderful things you will treasure forever.

PPPPPS Belated HB from me - hope you and little mac had a good time (your other post cheered me).

very clever..

If you haven't figured it out.. there is no yes or no answer here.

If the Barber does not shave himself, he must shave himself.

If He shaves himself, he cannot shave himself.

Or ... there are two Barbers, both called the Barber! (I can't see the first post at the moment - did it say "one Barber"? Maybe every male is a barber and they all shave each other.)