diazbro

Just catching up to this thread here.

Yah was indeed a very good man. Dedicated,

kind, with a great sense of humor. Very

supportive.

The class was a snore. Content issues

aside it could have easily been edited down

to a presentation of perhaps 7 sessions

maybe even less. But then we would have

been deprived of all the wonderful jokes

and anectodes that we all had to pretend

were funny.

As I recall there was one

session of PFAL (not counting Session 12)

that was shorter than the others which used

to mean that people got out earlier. But

then some leaders got wise to that and

started finding ways to fill up that time

-keeping you there.

Even in 75 the video look very dated to me -

it lacked currency and was not appealing

to me from a visual standpoint at all. I preferred the audio only setup - at least you

could look around and people wouldn't "reprove"

you for not looking at the TV screen.

Yes it can be confronted but is one willing to accept the consequences ? Though if a person is still "in" then expulsion from TWI is a distinct possibility. Unless one is prepared for that then its usually more convenient to keep quiet and maintain the act until a safe

departure can be made.

TWI implemented the concept of "likemindedness"

to rein in those who might be unruly or unwilling to accept the will of the leaders.

Furthermore it gave them a (faux) biblical basis upon which to justify the mark and avoid

tag applied to those uncomfortable or

unsatisfied with TWI's version of existence.

But one need not engage in outright confrontation to get M&Aed - just asking straight up questions about hot topics such as the distribution of abundant sharing could get you into deep,deep trouble. And if you persisted you were typically shown

the door without hesitation.

I expect that many of those still in sense

problems with the TWI's spin on the events

surrounding LCM's probation and departure.

But they are used to be fed half truths

and incomplete information so its easier to

take what they give you and suppress the instincts that are telling you that there is

more to the story than you are being told.

Each has to reach their own bulls***t threshold

before they've had enough. In my opinion

TWI is lying machine with no off switch. It will continue to pump out half truths, lies, twisted versions of reality, anything it has to in order to keep the few remaining members

from leaving

Oldiesman said:

I think this has always been key to Dr. John Juedes' unrelenting attack against TWI. We never believed the trinity, and because of that, we've always been illegitimate.

>>

How does this relate to the issue of plagiarism ? If ones doesn't like (JJ's) approach then fine but that is no reason to suspend investigation into VPW's literary practices. The question of VPW's liberal

borrowing of the works of others exsited

long before that site or this one existed

so its not permissible to drop the issue

altogehter just because JJ's site takes it on.

Lets see...

Fernando Valenzuela (former LA Dodgers

pitcher). They said he was "Seed" because his

eyes kind of rolled up before every pitch

so thats supposedly when the devils crept

in and made him throw the screw ball (the

pitch for which he was famous).

All religious leaders other than VPW and

his suck yes men. This included Billy Graham,

Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, et al. Its odd

though - they used to tell me that Billy Graham

and VPW knew each other and that BG had acknolwdged VPW as something of a holy spirit

master. But BG sold out to the world and became

seed to get his minstry rolling like it did.

Native Indians were said to have a predisposition towards devil spirits and being

seed boys since they were idol worshippers so

thats why their race dwindles in numbers.

Shriners (descend from Masons) were totally

seed.

Most all rich and famous people were said to be either possessed or seed. Most all famous rock musicians. Someone made reference to a particular devil spirit that infested rock stars but I don't recall hearing what they particular type was. Oh and Pat Boone was

a seed boy thorugh and through what with that

nice guy , clean cut christian act. He was luring people to their demise. Frankly I think

it was Debbie boone who was seed what with that

godawful "You Light Up My Life" song. I make

no apologies to any Debbine Boone fans out there. That was a horrible song

Anyone who had directly rejected taking PFAL.

Plenty of people faded before taking PFAL or

they sort of avoided the issue but I'm talking about those who were direct and open about not wanting to pay the going rate were torn down and backstabbed when they weren't around (his mind is full of devils and he might even be seed).

In general the term was usually applied to anyone whom a given Way leader did not like.

And of course it was all by revelation that

this would be revealed but of course only

to the spiritual heavies.

Garth said:

So would those groups that do 'cast out demons or rebuke you in the name of JC' then fit with

your definition of a 'cult'.... That's getting into the doctrinal side of defining 'cultness', wouldn't it? From the same 'experts'

that say that doctrine makes no difference in determining such?

>>

*laff* Well you asked a question and supplied

your own answer to it.. but I'll give it a

shot anyway.

One would have to experience and witness systematic and pathological behavior of the type described ("you'll be a greasespot if you don't do what I say") before its reasonable to consider that the organization might be a cult.

TWI leadership regularly employed such terminology to insure compliance. The distinguishing behavior is the qualifier here not the choice of words "you'll be a greasepot".

My original response in this thread was to point out that I don't think that the layman views the issue of JC is God as being the sole determinant for cult status. If they did then these web pages would be saying:

How to Tell if your church is a cult !

1) They claim JC is not god.

2) They reject the trinity

But those pages are far more concerned

with patterned behavior than any single point

of theology. In fact I did a web search on "cult characteristics" and out of the top 10 pages I pulled up *none* mentioned points of theology at all or even specific churches. Try it out.

Furthermore its interesting that the behaviors described on these various websites are amazingly similar and so well model organizations like TWI that one wonders how these disparate sources of information could so easily converge on these charactersitics unless the phenomenon actually existed.

Now. I've seen some christian bookstores offer

publications by so called authors who

debate various points of theology offerred by , for example, the unification church

or the jehovah's witnessess. And its these

authors who I find using the biblical approach -

"well this organization holds that the trinity

was a man made construct conceived to preserve

the tradtitions of polytheism. Of course the

dedicated christian knows in the fiber of his being that the Trinity is the cornserstone of

our foundation in christ and without it

our victory over satan and sin would not be complete... Therefore it is logical , not to

mention spirtually sound, to conclude that this organization can not be led by god and is therefore a cult".

I've *seen* critiques like this and they are

completely absurd. Maybe thats what R-Girl

was getting at. But I just don't see this type

of approach reflected at large in society.

There are social workers who are aware of

the cult concept and have seen the impact it has made on the family. This isn't an artificial

construct.

RotteGirl said:

It seems like in the "expert on cults" circles, that according to them, The sure fire way of identifyng a cult, is If they don't beleive that Jesus is God.

>>

Well I'll suggest that there is more to it than just that. If you look at sites such as:

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

http://surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/cult.html

http://www.refocus.org/charcult.html

one notes that there are a constellation

of dynamics and behaviors which typify "closed" or "absolute" organizations such as "cults".

Of course some note that these dynamics

can be found in civic organizations or

rabid sales clubs like amyway though I don't

buy it (no pun intended). No one at an amway

meeting or the local lions club tried to cast demons out of me or rebuked me in the name of JC.

Nor was I told that if I did't seel Amway that

my life would nosedive and I would be "a greasepot".

I don't think that the word "cult" is as difficult to define as it once was. Sociologists, clergymen, and medical health professionals have all been working for a better understanding of this phenomenon.

I've talked to people who claim you cannot define

the word "cult" but everyone seems to know of one

perhaps not by personal experience necessarily.

No offense intended to anyone but I notice that

the more vocal critics of the cult concept are those with cult experience. I've got a couple of friends from my Way daze who will deny till death that TWI was a cult. C'est la vie mon ami.

I don't think Way workers were slaves - that would insult those who really were.

It is true that people were expected to put in long,long hours for no money and sleep was precious. But no one was forced to remain or was sold as property to TWI. If someone became

a "yes" man or woman then thats what happened. Maybe they thought it was the thing to do - but

they still could have walked at anytime.

I do recall some people complaining

to the local branch leader about his

practice of cramming supporting classes (Dealing With The Adversary, Renewed Mind, CFS, etc) into killer schedules like Thu nite, Fri nite , all day Sat and Sun. He claimed that

he had to do it to accomodate "out of town

guests" but when you looked around the room

you didn't see anyone from out of town. Later

I learned that they did that in every locale.

I don't recall learning much in any of those

classes because of the ridiculous pace they

set. I nodded off alot during all of them and

so did many others. Even the class leader was

caught napping. This is just part of the MO of TWI and other cults also. Keep people tired and

hungry. TWI lifestyle was not caculated to make you comfortable thats for sure.

Yes. Agreed. all cults - moonies, TWI, Scientology isolate people to keep them

firmly rooted in their practices and teachings.

They also introduce jargon and terms not necessarily because its needed. But it gives

them a metric whereby they can gauge your level

of commitment to the group.

Those who become fluent in the jargon are recognized as the faithful whereas those who do not use the buzz words and phrases are easily recognized as new comers or perhaps malcontents who need "personal attention".

When I took PFAL for the first time I was

made to believe that that was the end point

of searching. Since it claimed to do all

the things that it said on that green card

"harmony in the family, etc" I was surprised

to learn that there were other classes to be

taken. One leader explained it like:

"Well PFAL is truly a masterpiece though its really just a survey of all the wonderful things God wants to do for us. The other classes are where you REALLY learn HOW to

apply the keys to abundance mentioned in PFAL".

So you are off to some other classes and by

then you are going to fellowships at least

twice a week (3 times if you are going to

family nights) and perhaps are giving people

rides to and from Twig and maybe even spending

sunays over at the Twig leaders house who is

helping you organize your first public teachings. So over time your personal life , such as it was, is non-existent. Your former friends are wondering what's up - so are your parents.

After this cycle they start mentioning the WOW

program where "you REALLY learn HOW to put it

all together - its just you and likeminded believers putting it all out there for God

and WATCH OUT - he will blow your mind with

his blessings".

So if you take that bait then after that its

like. "well you have great potential you know

and its God's will for you to be your best

and the ONLY place to reach that potential

is in the Corps program. Its where you REALLY

learn HOW to reach the heart of God and his

people".

I've talked with people who had similar

levels of involvement in other cults and

except for the names of the classes mentione

above its EXACTLY the same dynamic. What

was supposed to be a one time thing turned

into a lifestyle and then into bondage. The

labels change but the methodology of all

cults are more or less the same.

Its amazing that there are former Way people

who do not see any of this and will not agree

that TWI was even a cult. I guess they had

a sweet setup and somehow escaped the grind

of the average believer. Good for them - Its

good that somebody got over on TWI. But the

larger share of former Way people readily

acknowledge the cult nature of TWI.

Well its not a devil spirit.....

If a person thinks these pics are sexist and degrading then such a person would have 12 cardiaques watching TeleMundo or some of the popular television shows in Mexico or South America where provocatively dressed women are the rule as opposed to the exception. But its seldom

interpreted as a challenge for all women to

converge on some standard of beauty.

That is - not every mexican lady considers

,for example, Salma Hayek as competition which is what happens in America where men and women alike tend to view movie stars and models as "real people" as opposed to entertainers or models selling a product. These people are well compensated to maintain a certain image which might involve plastic surgery. So what ? I don't

expect everyone to look like that nor would I like

those expectaions imposed upon me. I relaize that they are *models*. They are hired to promote

lingerie. Western civilaiztion will not cease to

exist if Victoria's Secret has a lingerie show.

I tend to value mutual culture over mutual religion though the first might imply the second.

However in a country as culturally diverse as the US its not necessarily the case.

I've often found that a shared sense of humor is an exellent indicator of compatibility. A sense of humor reflects culture, values, and ideals. Its more than just one aspect of the personality.

If you both genuinely find the same things to be

funny that suggests a deeper connection than

a simple shared appreciation for a certain movie or a particular type of food which could simply be a coincidence.

Relative to friends. Dating by committee is never fun. It is hard enough for two single people to get to know each other. A running commentary from well meaning friends and family can lead to hyper-analyzation of what should essentially be a personal process. Your friends want you to date a christian man ? Cool. let them date a christian man. You date whomever you want and feel good

about it.

I was first attracted to TWI because

they offerred an unconventional (for 1974) approach to the Bible that let me combine my

social and spiritual interests. I don't think

it would suprise anyone here were I to note that

many were smoking pot and ,*gasp*, sexual relations were occurring between twig members.

I attribute this to post 60s behavior. No one in TWI promoted any of this but since most were of the same generation we were simply reflecting the attitudes and general practices of the time which still supported these activities - or at least

silently condoned them.

A funny story - once at a family night with about 20 people in attendance I asked a WOW if premarital sex was acceptable for Way follwers. The whole group started laughing and someone muttered "It had better be else many of us are going to hell". So my initial Way expereinces were far from the legalism and ultra conservatism associated with TWI under LCM.

But just as some of the most vocal hippies transitioned into middle age becoming equally as conservative as anyone they ever criticized I think people in TWI followed suit. As people started families and needed to quit prologing their adolescence they latched onto qualties and

attributes generally associated with adulthood.

In the 80s, society was reacting to the recent two decades with a strong dose of conservatism and religions turned more towards fundamentalism - TWI

was no exception in this regard. Lots of churches

got into the gay bashing thing - Of course few made it their personal fetish/obsession like Craig.

So I'm just pointing out that as far as rules, well I left before TWI became obssessed with them.

so any influence to abide by the rules has come from other sources such as my upbringing and family. My strongest objections to TWI relate to how they treated people and how they changed doctrine to suit their agenda. I wasn't around for the micromanagement days and can only imagine that it was a nightmare on top of what was already a

bad time.

My speculation at work here. It is arrogant beyond all imagination for me to believe that we are the only form of life in the universe. In many ways I feel that we are somewhat incidental to the vast

enormnity which surrounds us. On the other hand I

certainly marvel at the order which exists and

am perfectly willing to believe that a so called

higher order of intellienge set in motion the existence which is the very source of our animation.

But I don't care to talk about n-dimensional space, crop circles, the freakin' Bermuda triangle, or Aztec calendars derived from alien timetables which will one day enable us to fold time so we can return to the "good ole days". Thats interesting to consider on occasion just likes it interesting to argue for or against the trinity (well not really for me but maybe for others).

Just as Way people become consumed with the minutae of verse interpretation and never really get anything accomplished in life, I know other people who have all but abandoned their daily obligations in hopes that there are aliens "out there" who will somehow change things. Both sets of individuals are equally lost in my opinion because they ignore the here and now (and sometimes even their families) which can be a source of tremendous peace. I accept my very,very,very,very small role in this large universe and I like it but I'm not insignificant and neither are you. If it turns out

that we are royalty (son of god with all power) then thats great but I've got things to do NOW in

THIS life, on EARTH which require my focus and attention. I would think that God would appreciate

me tending to the business at hand.