sirguessalot

and too, it seems the shape of our "faith" can also be understood as the lense through which we interpret our experiences.

different people can have nearly identical experiences, yet interpret it based on our "faith"...or what we have come to trust...or perhaps even what we want to trust.

...

here is another loose range of examples...in no particular order

"Whenever I dream of Jesus...i am reminded of the stories i read as a child in church. Reminds me to help the poor and the sick."

"Jesus appeared in our pastor's dream last night. He said it was a miracle for the church. And it proves that our church is right."

"I had a dream of Jesus last night. It must have been something I ate. Or it was just that Jesus movie lingering in my brain."

"Jesus appeared for me in a dream last night. It was a miracle for me. And it proves he is my personal supernatural lord."

etc...

no test Roy...mostly for fun

and for the racing questions you mentioned

i was hoping it might help some people understand how wide the range of possiblities really are

and i was hoping more would participate in the poll

i guess i must be in the wrong forum

thanks though

feeling like the world is as crazy as its ever been...and likely more

so here is a light romp through a loose range of possibilities regarding "identification"

my intention is to find out if such a poll might help find our selves

even if we are somewhat "beside our selves"

please feel free to participate, not participate, comment, not comment...

...

note:

i intentionally left out "why," "when" and "how" because they seem like very different kinds of questions.

"Who," "what" and "where" seemed to point in too similar of a direction.

...and now that i've typed all the choices...i wish i would have started it in the open forum.

so it is

seems...

the majority of people today live in the first four "faiths"

and the majority of religion today happens in the first and second "faiths"

and all degrees of "faiths" have happened, do happen, and will happen in the context of most all religions

and the ancient wisdom traditions of the world were inspired by (and aspire to) life in the "highest" "faith"

it is people who have different degrees of faith...and interpret and apply text from different "faiths"...NOT the religions

...

the "original" role of religion since the dawn of time

is like what geo pointed out ...and more

"religion" is not only a response to the severe nature of existence

but is a "chain reaction" of responses to responses

all "religions" contain the full range of responses

just as do "non-religions"

but the histories of all the old world religions

are full of people whose "faith" was of the 5th kind and beyond

not only did they include an objective worldview in their doctrine and practice

they served where rational thought fails like everything else

...they were "the ones who died while living."

not irrational...simply one or more degrees of post-rational

but as with all stages of faith

each is somehow hellbent on obliterating the neighboring stages

...particularly the previous one

...

in general...

...our selfishness resists others "taking our power away"

and so resists membership and rationality...but finds a home in pluralism

...our mythicality resists people being selfish

but also resists evidence that debunks our myths

...our rationality resists cultures and subjectivity

but also resists the wilderness of contextual complexity

...our pluralism resists all previous for being hierarchies

but also resists most natural hierarchies and structures of life

each "faith," when held above all others, offers a "flattened" view

..a view that we may cling to as if our lives depended on them

but each "faith" is perhaps best understood as a temporary place, at best

...a place we are already always being pushed and/or pulled through anyway

quite against our will ...or anyone else's

so perhaps more valuable than any one stage of "faith"

is 1) the capacity to honestly examine one's own "faith"

and 2) the capacity to "leap" from one "faith" to another

of course...i may be describing the most difficult act of all

..like flying through the space between two different realities

another interpretation of tongues of angels...a range of possibilities

...a simple poetic game of how the logos of "the Word of God" seems to change from "faith" to "faith"...whether in a religious context or not

1) faith in some degree of subjectivity above all..."the word of God" is in supernatural forces...particularly those that "my me" finds most beautiful and miraculous...those that "are good to me." Forces that are "bad to me" are not to be trusted. "Its all about me." Interior individual view.

2) a reaction to the failure of subjectivity above all...as early as 3 or so:

...faith in some degree of inter-subjectivity above all..."the word of God" is in supernatural myths...where a culture shares their trust in a particular story of a supernatural universe. "We rely on this story" (as it is understand) above all to tell us what to trust. Members only. Group interior view.

3) a reaction to the failure of inter-subjectivity above all...as early as 7 or so:

...faith is some degree of objectivity above all..."the word of God" is in true reality...we only trust what can be proven to all people...what can be measured...what can be demonstrated...what can be explained...what can be controlled....what can be reduced. Proven experts only. Individual exterior view.

4) a reaction to the failure of objectivity above all...as early as 12 or so:

...faith in some degree of interobjectivity above all..."the word of God" is in truths and realities...where truths are found in contexts within contexts within contexts...trusting complex interdisciplinary comparisons and wider systems above all. Everyone is allowed to add. Group exterior view.

5) a reaction to the failure of inter-objectivity above all...as early as 18 or so:

...faith in some degree of aperspectivity above all..."the word of God" is in all perspectives...where all perspectives are parts of a whole...each are valid and support each other...and each has its own path of development to a "fullest." Not only can human conflict can be understood, but one's own innate perspectives and unconscious programs and habits.

6) a reaction to the failure of apersectivity above all...as early as 25 or so:

...faith in some degree of non-perspectivity above all..."the word of God" is concealed in shadow...whenever all previous perspectives fail and life throws a radical curve that challenges everything we thought we trusted...we learn how much there is to trust about not-knowing...how "the unknown majority" of "the word of God" is outside of our experience.

7) a reaction to the failure of non-perspectivity above all...perhaps prior to becoming some sort of "elder human being":

...faith in some degree of nonduality above all..."the word of God" is simply already always all alls and everywhere. We trust all perspectives of life...but not in opposition to the even greater mysteries we will never know. All are together in one. God has no opposite.

i dunno

overall...scripturally and otherwise

i find that one's "faith" is the nature and/or form of whatever interior container we use

to somehow hold the ideas for what we simply cannot bring our selves to deny

or...what we have found our selves to come to trust

or..our inner picturebook on that which we have come to rely on thus far in life

for example...

if we wishes for some thing and get it

we may gain some "faith in the power of wishing for things"

and if and when we notice that the wishing does not always work

our conscience pressures us to question the validity of what was once trusted to be our most reliable worldview

when we find that our faith lacks integrity...or "wholeness"

which is like saying that it "no longer covers everything like we once thought"

then the container has some sort of leak or a crack

our boat is taking on water

and we need a new vessel

and so begins a lifelong journey of leaping from faith to faith

rethrowing the clay

when life calls for it

is a skill that pays off

in the longest run

because its not that we start by controlling

or otherwise choosing our faith

or "getting" faith

but that whatever faith we do have

it is something we initially find

...perhaps even something hidden from us

in the unlit corners of our very self

faith is a most direct reflection of our experiences

the deepest part of our faith

is more like a background noise of convictions that move us along

and only once we find out the nature of our faith

can we begin to examine and test the integrity

like cultivating and weeding

our gardens of assumptions

hm

if "rod and staff" have anything to do with the ideas behind the "caduceus,"

or have anything to do with using a full spectrum for any kind of spiritual discernment ...or diagnosis

or even anything to do with a music staff

... wow

what a quintessential song for when we find our selves walking in that valley

reminding us we can find comfort using "the king of king's instrument" on our journey

amazing too...to think of how that very psalm has been sung throughout history,

in countless languages, by counteless egyptians, jews, christians, muslims at least

specifically because they were in their very moments of dying

reminds me...even more practically...of the arts and histories of "music thanatology"

and how a bandwith of musical "moods" has been developed for many millenia now...used to diagnose and soothe inner, or spiritual, or perhaps even "existential" pain and suffering

like singing the blues when you got the blues

singing red when you are feeling red

etc...

imo, only highlights the connections between the histories of hospitals, hospices and religions and such

pointing more directly at the original practical context most holy scripture were created in ... and for

what can be seen

more and more...i cant help but find "the revelation of jesus christ" to be the clearest book in the bible

at it pertains to "what can be seen"

as if jesus christ

found a clever loving way

to give this very long future

an unforgettable copy

of his own map

of everything

quite the poet

...

what can be seen

i see how the mind of christ is portrayed in the opening scenes

how after declaring that he has "the keys of hell and death"

its as if he is saying...

"start here" for more

initiates a process of our initial "illumination of our inward human"

can be seen as harmless, universal, beautiful and inviting as lighting a menora

one by one, the candles are lit

each new illumination brings a new message

until the full staff of messengers are flickering as one

the lessons come forth using an series of archetypes and riddles

7 gifts

7 warnings

7 rewards

brilliant, really

a puppet show for children of all ages

all languages

like learning numbers and alphabets

or how to play a harp

even older...becomes more like a checklist for taking off

or otherwise getting to know the cardinal points of your gear

while becoming outfitted for the climb of a life

then the throne room is like a reward...an initiation...like graduation day

...and signal to prepare for the next leg of this inward gauntlet

as if the original students of christ

actually purified themselves

tested themselves

against this series of seals

:blink:

funny too

reads like jesus was writing a video game script

or the sketch of the ultimate reality program

ha..yeah

reminds me of when the railroad reps came and called an assembly in my grade school

warned us of the dangers of playing on railroad tracks

by telling us a story of a kid who was flattening nickels on the rails

but one was lopsided and shot out and hit him in the neck like a bullet

:blink:

so the very kids they were trying to reach

were sitting in the auditorium

dreaming up ways to set the nickels lopsided

i think of the story of trying to cast a demon out

and how it merely snaps back with a spectrum of trouble

because that demon is also a fallen angel

and as such...is connected to every other vital part of us

seems to me that discernment worth being called biblical allows for some sort of full spectrum of consideration in all matters

so that when we find shadows in life...we see them not as something to be cast out, or somehow cut off

but as a part of the whole bandwidth of the self

we may simply need to comb some knots out

or trim a wick so that light shines there again

honestly...how can one evaluate why a hole in the flute is not in tune

if one is not considering its relationship to the other holes?

hi Dot...i appreciate you...im glad you are playing along...your offerings challenge me

i hope you dont mind me asking like this...

maybe it helps to consider that its really also written more to anyone reading

is it not possible that "eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" is such a perfect "bad idea"

because it meant nourishing one's self with a system that does not have a capacity to discern the causes and effects of the whole chromatic nature of life and creation?

in other words...as if "God said 'if you feed your mind with dualistic thoughts your little self will be dead asleep to your "real naked beautiful good true unshamed eternal self'"

perhaps mostly because God just created at least a seven-fold reality

which is also why the tree of life was perfectly good to eat

...because the tree of life represented the whole "chain of being"

and the tree of good and evil does not

rather, it seems to represent a sense of enmity without end

or least enmity until we fall back through the flames

as if Spirit lives in Mystery

Pure Witness of the endless ocean of the "unmanifest"

the vast clearing within which all that manifests arises

as if our very own "original face" is moving in this mystery

moving as the very formless form of this mystery unfolding

fundamentally fluid

fundamentally temporal

fundementally endless

not the self, or the Self, but our original SELF

the one that "was, is, and will be"

both oldest and youngest

reminds me…

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

as if predicting a direct experience of gen 1:1-2

...of Spirit moving across the face of the unknown

as it currently appears within

the divine matrix we must re-enter for a while

in order to die and be reborn

...in order to "get what direction jesus was coming from"

and give us a peek at the other side of our deep state of amnesia

so we can see for ourselves what direction we also are "coming from"

for them...this came after nine straight days of contemplative prayer and fasting, of course

and that only after already having spent a number of years practicing with the luckiest-unlucky jew on earth

to see what can be seen in such a life-altering way

can take anywhere from a twinkle of an eye ... to ten years or more for people like us

...with all our advantages and disadvantages and even more exaggerated varieties

thank God for grace and mercy

is it possible that the serpent was telling an important truth?

and that eve did nothing wrong, morally or otherwise?

and their shame for having done something wrong was/is the primary delusion that endures to this day?

as if "the wound of man" was/is not some sinful action...but an enduring state of shame for something we are already always both guilty and innocent of?

something like...

a) they did not realize they were not going to die

b) they get a self that realizes it is going to die

c) they die (before or after their mortal death) and realize their original self never was going to die...and the shame and fear was a temporary stage

one word for the flaming sword that chases us out of the garden

and keeps us from even looking in the garden again...is mostly shame

as if the narrowest most direct path to seeing God (and his throneroom and his kingdom) is always already somewhere within

and so there is a natural sense of humiliation in discovering that our lifelong search for God was in vain all along...but quite necessary in order for us learn it for our selves

of course, we naturally want to avoid feeling such shame

so rather than going through the shame...we try and go around it

but that sword is always still there...no matter which way we try to get back home

our heart feels the heat whenever our attention moves towards our innermost garments

we naturally dont want to know what is in the dark under all the layers

and our underlying natures...our underlying callings...our underlying intentions

...the vast inward mysteries

yet a choir of saints and prophets and rabbis and monks and nuns seem to agree

that the inward path back to God is a gauntlet of humiliating discoveries (and re-discoveries)

but as always...this kind of language is insanity to most

we have not programmed the wisdom of folly and failure into our maps and models for so long

we cant bring our selves to look

what if the "fall of man"

is all of us simply waking up in an eternal free fall

and living a life of flinching madly in the dark

time after time...shattered into pieces ...becoming more each time

or did i just describe wave of light particles?

what can be seen

as it pertains to seeing from the perspective of "we"

as Roy wrote about

i find it helps to understand that the line that defines "we" from "them" is like the line that separates inside from outside

there are depths and degrees...like layers of a robe

one's "we" may only include their fingers and toes

another's may only include their family and friends and religion

another's may only include their nation or culture or society or race

another's may only include their species or only mammals

another's may only include the voices in their head

there is a "we" that is a prison

but i think the God's ultimate "we" leaves nothing and no one out

and that includes every enemy you or i have ever had

it seems God's ultimate perspective of who "we" are is more radically inclusive than we are ready for

if our firmament between "in" and "out" includes the notion that there are "good people" and "bad people"

or even perhaps that when we exclude someone and consider them to be "in darkness"

then it is we who are creating fellowship with darkness

and when we realize that the truth that hides in the darkness can be as beautiful as that which is in the light

then it is we who are fellowshipping with the light

when we (our egos) assume to seperate evil people from good people

it is we who created the notion of bad people

when we (our egos) do not make the same assumption

it is we who sees what God sees

i agree too

even that "the clothing of genesis" is vividly portrayed throughout not only the bible, but all the world's ancient scriptures

"the Great Chain of Being" of Christian history is one very vivid example of this

something universally discovered and uncovered ...rather than invented or created

where in what is found by all to be most common and most possible ... is found the meaning of sacred and divine

...

and yeah...darkness was first

this points to what many have found to mean

that darkness means ignorance, not evil

and darkness is where the truth is hiding

this is the fathomless mystery that outnumbers all that we might know

the fathomless uncovered possibility we often call God, or "the Whole Spirit"

as if "God found it wise to give himself amnesia"

and God separated light from darkness by simply peering into the mystery he created

and the part that he saw was beautiful

some sources say the word "good" is better understood as "beautiful"

because all of creation is beautiful

so that which is illuminated can be seen as beautiful

to add...there are so so many contradictions in scripture...hard to ignore and avoid them

seems we can only get into "God versus evil" if we ignore/avoid those many many scriptures that put BOTH good and evil in the hands of an omni-everything God

even the acts of Judas were considered necessary stage of the big story

and surely such radical inclusion is not limited to him

like adam and eve...everything that happened in the garden couldnt have happened any other way

...

to see "the holy one"...is to see the WHOLE ONE...not just the branch or two that happen to be in our immediate sight

the ego cannot do this...it is like judas...it serves to betray us so that we fulfill our destiny and wake up

life is a series of necessary births and deaths...so-called failures and deceptions

but so much of popular culture and psychology wants to somehow destroy the ego

or somehow remove the ego

this too is an egocentric chapter we must travel through

...an ego trying in vain to kill an ego

the ego has a role to play...like Roy said..the selfish part of me

also called the magical part of me

the willful, childish, fantastic part of me

that prefers possibility over reality

via "the law of attraction" and "the law of believing"

the profound danger of living exclusively in this part of the self seems obvious

just as the profound danger of excluding this part of the self

i like all that Roy

all the paradoxes of life (and the bible stories) are certainly challenging to navigate

helps a lot to be able to be so free to see in such a way as you described

...one and many

...inside and outside

...etc

not an "either-or" ... but a "both-and"

...God is All in All...and we are All already always in God

...

what can be seen

as ive mentioned before...there seems another common misunderstanding regarding the nature of "self"

...as it is expressed in the gospels

to love neighbor as self...is NOT about loving an "other," but about realizing that ultimately, there is NO other

the "other" IS both YOU and GOD in ONE

this is the classic pattern of being both clothed and naked at once

...in the "unity of the spirit" and "being one with God"

because God has no opposite

this way of thinking that there are "others" is the work of the ego

and at the root of all war, racism, violence, etc...

leaf versus leaf...in spite of being parts of the self same forest

...

what can be seen

if i may ask...does anyone have an idea why darkness is so often immediately associated with evil and sin and spiritual danger and such?

is not everything that is in the darkness full of the pure absolute truth of God that we simply have not seen yet?

if God is in all...and all is in God...how can anything be outside of God?

(except as way to describe OUR view when we think there is something outside of God)

are we not to be lights and enter darkness to illuminate the goodness truth and beauty that is there?

if we flee darkness...and avoid it for being such an evil...how can we ever BE lights?

how can there be territory in the universe that is outside of God's presence?

is this not a "heresy"...where we have picked and choosed some part over the whole holy whole?

never a stranger to me, either, cman

plz permit a stream...

...

what can be seen

i find it positively odd

how throughout the pages of the Bible, for example

we read story after story of a manifold nature of God, or Spirit, or One, or ultimate truth and reality, or whatever

vivid and timeless metaphors and enigmas speak of a manifold universe

...and a manifold interior human being

such as

...multicolored dreamcoats

...dreams of many-runged ladders

...faiths purified like gold 7 times

...serpents climbing poles as a symbol of medicine

...in-vested with a glorious array of gatherings and knots

...rainbows and angels around the mind of our king of kings on a throne of crystal

...living epistles and books with seven seals...slaughtered lambs with seven horns and seven eyes

...and on and on and on and on

i cant help but agree that awareness of such texture and detail

is certainly worth calling some sort of "original nakedness"

as we disrobe our selves with our attention

we become more and more naked with each skirt that is raised

perhaps it is when we run out layers

that we find that original naked unashamed state

where nothing needs to be added

its just that our eyelid has simply fallen

and we are partially asleep

no need to be ashamed of that

what we once thought was someone else through a glass darkly becomes clearer

i am is always already simply a riddle in a mirror

...

what can be seen

what does it really mean to "see?"

any child can ask...what does you see when you close your eyes?

what does my body feel?

what do i see when i sleep?

what do i see when i dream?

where is all this happening?

how many flavors?

textures?

details?

is anyone there?

etc...

that is what the people in the stories did

no...not for ten seconds before changing the channel back to whatever

for days

months

years

generations...

often while suffering

or dying

or imprisoned

what else you going to do at a time like that?

when such terrain is more vibrant and raw...and less avoidable

this profound history of interior discovery is "why religion?"

the profound danger of avoiding this terrain seems obvious

just as is the profound danger of avoiding the exterior

but the interior is always closest

a most direct and immediate path

certainly a narrow way

eye of a needle

in our hands

yada yada

a minimum requirement

of sorts

...

what can be seen

this firmament between heaven and earth

is the line drawn between subject and object

between me

and not me

this firmament moves with the simplist flicker of attention

this firmament then "becomes" the fig leaves...and aprons

...the armor...the army

this all seems blood red universal to all who have lived to see it

which is why xenophobia is a foul heresy...and an immediate disqualifier

the pot is cracked

its ok...one can start again

again

...

what can be seen

a simplification...

some are stuck mostly in the skull..and "see" from the skull

some are stuck mostly in the heart..and "see" from the heart

some are stuck mostly stuck in the gut...and "see" from the gut

etc...

every inch we find with our nakedest eye

is intimately connected to every inch of our original self

...

what can be seen

to add: i also feel that we most naturally and unconsciously react to our "nakedness" the same way adam and even did...with deep shame ...a profound ignorance and disbelief...

...so we fight or flee ... we do the craziest thing and actually try to save our sense of self from both our original and final pure spiritual condition of being "naked and unashamed"

...we get the opposite of the truth in our mind...where approaching this "nakedness" is like approaching "death"

...when ultimately...this original "nakedness" is the home we never left

...except in our mind

odd creatures

i dunno

seems the reaction varies wildly

to all the possible depths and degrees of nakedness

and depths and degrees of self-exposure, self-examination, self-experience

depends a lot on where one draws those lines of "self"

at any given moment

some may include their bodies

some may not

some may include their clothes

some may not

some may include their house and car

some may not

some may include family and ancestors

some may not

some may include the flora and fauna

some may not

some may include their dreams

some may not

some may include the air we breathe

some may not

some may include this or that feeling or thought

some may not

some may include everything

some may not

yada yada yada

can anyone say for sure where those lines are always supposed to be drawn?

or is any one side of any given line more or less real than the other?

while im no longer able to be some sort of translation nazi about this stuff

'naked' is perhaps one of my most favoritist words in the universe

i've also long found it interesting that the hebrew word for 'subtil'

as in "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field"

is the root for 'naked' throughout the rest of the garden story

of course i am not the ancient person who penned this

but i'll venture a guess that there is at least some overlooked point here

the whole story reminds me of stages of ego development

...or natural stages of becoming self-aware, if you will

aka "the riddle in the mirror"...or "revelation" and "enlightenment" and such

like all boys and girls...adam and eve start out unaware of who they are

or that there is a self worth "having"

of course...the most naked part of their self-sense speaks up and and gets their attention

naturally the girl is the first to learn what comes next

the boy typically must be told by someone else

...so she tells him, of course

together, they fall into the natural trap of believing that their self somehow begins and ends.

...creating an ego who is afraid to die.

drawing line after line after line between "self" and "other"

before graduating to drawing lines between "selfs" and "others"

munching on the tree of good and evil...which is to speak and define in dualistic terms

...yada yada yada

and so begins the human part of the bible story

thank God it has some sort of endless end

yeah...probably the best he can do

on a scale of 1 to 7...using a spectrum of faith development...i can't help but give the guy a 2.5

which seems around average for religious leaders today (i give vpw a 1.5)

i can only hope that perhaps our global collapse will stimulate some sort of development in our next generation of religious leaders

and maybe even lift the average to at least a 4 or 5...and get all the childlike adults out of positions of responsibility and authority

sad how it takes such desolation and loss to shake us out of such a rut

Uriel is often thought of as the archangel of death

it seems only recently in history that we reduced the number of judeo-christian archangels from 7 or more

to 3

odd

sad as this feels...i cant help but write

for what feels like the 100th time

cult or culture

if the twi system was/is/will be at the cutting edge of any wave of spirituallity

it was/is/will be in the spirituallity of avoiding and rejecting most all forms death and dying

as well as avoiding most any and all types and kinds of suffering or loss or grief

including all those other important little deaths we face in life

on our way from the womb to the tomb

"are the dead alive now?" seems the clearest doctrinal expression of this in TWI

but twi is not so special or unique in this regard

in spite of all our gifts to the world

for the past century much of our western world has already been boiling in a cultural and social flight from death

weve created an exotic array of magical myths and secrets of eternal fantastic health and wealth

and are often terrorized at the thought of the loss of our stuff and things ... especially our egos and mental jewelry

our interests are mostly clearly severely divorced from most any recorded history or lineage or language of practical experience in dying

particularly in ways that allow development of

presence

stillness

listening

trust

inquiry

freedom

respect

civility

dialogue

and such

which are at the root of all true good and beautiful

religions

sciences

spirituality

medicine

counsel

friendship

love

life

change

rebirth

art

and such

believe it or not...some good news ive found

is that not only the history of christianity richly laced with veins of evidence of such arts of dying

but so are pretty much all the other old and very old religious traditions

especially rich are times of great equalizing loss and change that great interfaith movements developed

...like there are now

perhaps from having recognized something bloody red mutual in the arts of dying

that is both beyond and includes everyone's more ethnocentered values

in the so-called dark ages, for example

prior to this distorted retarded backwards relationship we now have between so-called business and so-called medicine

and even prior to the great psychological split we call "the enlightenment"

jews, christians, muslims, celts and others planted the seeds of our modern hospital systems all over europe

leaving a legacy of womb to tomb service

not magical powers to control the universe and make it change

but the freedom to celebrate each and every change

as we are being pushed and pulled along

naked and unashamed