sirguessalot

GSC,

Please forgive me if my notes are considered copious, but I like to write, and Mike enjoys the rigamorole. Besides, this is his thread. ;)--> But, as mentioned elsewhere recently, the GSC's doctrinal table seems a more suitable venue for this stuff anyway (unless you really want everyone see your headlines at the top of the paper). Oh well.

Mike,

Honest question for ya: Does persecution strengthen your faith?

If so, heerz a quote that might make ya chuckle (or weep): "Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiam." Winston Churchill.

OK,

Problem #1 - you seem to assume everyone else is more stupider than you.

Problem #2 - you seem to assume everyone else missed the EXACT same things you did in your own PFAL experience.

Problem #3 - you seem to assume that only those mysteries YOU have found in PFAL are worth the most.

Problem #4 - you seem to assume everyone else who wishes to be as smart as you about PFAL should be as willing as they are able to solve your riddles and find the cheese at the end of your maze.

Problem #5 - you seem to assume everyone else will marvel at the simplest of paradigms.

I can only suggest that THESE are the problems you should be trying to solve, my friend. And if you can, you may just meet more minds and hearts than that silent audience your faith is telling you is out there.

Otherwise,

Are you suggesting we hafta get into VP?s mind in order to understood what his words meant to him, in order to understand advanced/basic PFAL, in order to understand the bible, in order to understand/get into the Kingdom of Heaven? a.k.a - ?Light through a Wierwillian Window? or ?Wierwillian Mannerisms that Perplex the Greasespot Mind??

That would be quite a camel-load of apparatus you want us to squeeze through the eye of the needle, dude.

Also, are you suggesting that recognizing VPW's dichotomies in PFAL is a sign of spiritual maturity? Maybe even THE sign of spiritual maturity?

I can?t help but wince at your being confounded and awestruck by some rather universal concepts of heaven and earth.

Regardless, I'll play along. Although I will step outside the lines of your FORMula of duality for understanding da verd. Sorry - I know how you hate to step outside of cages and boxes, but some have been playing these kinds of word games since we were kids, long before we learned PFAL lingo.

Dichotomy: Division into two usually contradictory parts or opinions.

Alpha - - - Omega

First - - - - Last

Beginning - - End

Above - - - Below

In - - - - Out

Within - - - Without

Life - - - Death

Light - - - Dark

Eternal - - - Temporary

Immortal - - - Mortal

Love - - - Hate

Hope - - - Sorrow

Spirit - - - not-spirit

Heaven - - - not-heaven

Light - - - not-light

Good - - - not-good

Quickened - - - not-quickened

Holy - - - not-holy

The God - - - not-The God

ONE - - - NOTHING

That was fun.

Lets set it on its side:

Right - - - Left

Male - - - Female

Husband - - - Wife

Give - - - Take

Push - - - Pull

Lion - - - Lamb

Carnivore - - - Herbivore

Lets turn it some more:

Light - - - Dark

White - - - Black

Blue - - - Orange

Yellow - - - Purple

Red - - - Green

Ok, now I'm dizzy.

There also seems quite a few neutral bibilical concepts that seem to exist on BOTH sides of a spiritual/natural dichotomy:

king

thief

lion

rain

tree

fruit

spirit

god

woman

man

child

father

benign

malevolent

So, how bout a trichotomy? - just to keep from splitting the universe in two like those crazy naked kids did in paradise?

spirit - - soul - - - - body

positive - neutral - - negative

in - - - - middle - - - out

up - - - - middle - - - down

light - - form/color - shadow/reflection

life - - - knowledge - nourishment and pleasure

law - - - free - - - wild

Why not draw a dichotomy through a trichotomy to make a sextachotomy so we might try a more complex model of what it might be to be a human being?

right spirit/left spirit

right mind/left mind

right flesh/left flesh

or

inner spirit/outer spirit

inner mind/outer mind

inner flesh/outer flesh

or

masculine spirit/feminine spirit

masculine mind/feminine mind

masculine flesh/feminine flesh

or

carnivorous spirit/herbivorous spirit

carnivorous mind/herbivorous mind

carnivorous flesh/herbivorous flesh

Or maybe flip it on end for some sort of inverse:

1 - Inner spirit - eternal life

2 - Inner soul - - automatic life

3 - Inner flesh - internal systems

4 - Outer flesh - appearance

5 - Outer soul - - expression of self

6 - Outer spirit - spiritual manifestation

That would be a tough equilibrium to get on top of, let alone maintain all yer life?

What about a nonachotomy to express an even more manifold model?

- - - - - RIGHT - - MIDDLE - - LEFT

IN - - - - spirit - - spirit - - spirit

MIDDLE - mind - - mind - - - mind

OUT - - - flesh - - flesh - - flesh

(Mike, the line of your dichotomy would fit horizontally through the row of minds in this model.)

Hey, maybe even a decadichotomy - a system of 6 oppositions (12 forces) to express that marriage at the end of the world where heaven and earth finally meets again in whatever "New Jerusalem" means? If I was more enthused about it, I might try to express it by whipping up a jpeg using concentric circles rather than straight 2-D lines and graphs, or even concentric spheres. But I'm not.

In cosmological models, it seems that the numbers of sub-axis at any given crosshairs can and do diversify the more you reason, based on how much space you want to give them (i.e. how much free-time/space you want to blow on it.). But that eventually leads to chasing the dragon across the face of the deep, I suppose.

Ultimately, it seems that we can express spiritual paradigms that can never be 100% accurate or ultimate. They have limited application, as well as limited shelf-life.

They can be quintessential in character, even sublime. But baptising snapshots of cosmological formulas and pushing them as THE key seems one of the oldest human rackets there is.

How deep is God?

How high is heaven?

How dark is that darkness?

How many rungs are there on Jacob's ladder?

Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher, all is vanity.

No problem for me.

;)-->

tng

[This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 01, 2003 at 4:36.]

[This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 01, 2003 at 4:39.]

Pat,

This past few days have been dark and wierd where I am. Everyone seems different. Even the weather seems nervous. I have even had trouble keeping my head on as straight as usual. I am out of step in many ways.

TNG

wyteduv58, oops.

I fixed my profile.

wyteduv58,

Sorry, no I don't. But I might find one before I visit Vegas this month. I actually hope to run into them. I'll post back or email when I get back. Email me private if there's something you'd like to me to tell them.

Todd

I last knew Stephanie and her boys in Vegas.

About 1997.

I miss them dearly.

Todd

I agree with this re: plagiarism:

Anyone in the various stages of going in or coming out of TWI has the right to know what came from where before they swap blood and spit with the house that Vic built.

Though sadly enough, some obviously care little about plagiarism until the wailing and chomping begins.

Personally, I think plagiarism is much less relevant regarding religious matters (though not unimportant) than it is regarding harder sciences like medicine and journalism. Around here, plagiarism often seems to be used against the bibleman like the Sabbath Law was used to stone whores.

Spirit, art, cult and myth REQUIRE plagiarism. And VPW was just a lousy thief. His farmboy academics limited his ability to "repaint" the car before he got it across the border. He was a hack and somewhat of a bully. TWI was just one trendy little fart bubble among a mudpuddle of wannabe spiritual Titans popping up elsewhere in the world. He could have learned a thing or two about starting religions from LR Hubbard.

Change the names, at least.

Todd

Good artists copy great artists.

Great artists steal from everyone.

Oldiesman,

The two ARE compatable. Because being a victim of something is not an absolute thing. If you get mugged in an alley, you are still everything you were before you got mugged. You just have the additional experience and affects a crime. You are still an empowered victim.

On the same token, I'll agree with you: TWI was not 100% evil from the beginning. Because nothing in the universe is 100% singular. Nothing. Everything has parts to it. No one dimension can define an entire event, except in poetry.

B: "Do you like sweet food?"

A: "Yes."

B: "It's your favorite?"

A: "No. It's not my favorite."

B: "Then you lied. You hate it?"

A: "No, I don't hate it."

B: "Do you like chocolate covered snails?"

A: "No, I don't like chocolate covered snails."

B: "You are a liar, then."

;)-->

Pat,

Heerz some thoughts that helped me.

Forgiveness was the last thing on TWI's priority list.

Yet, it was towards the top on Jesus's, being one of his last acts on the cross.

I'm not talking about forgiveness for specific crimes.

That is a different discussion.

But forgiving human nature, in general.

Forgiveness for all of us for being limited.

Forgiving yourself for not knowing that you know that you know.

Forgiving others for not knowing the same.

Forgive the flesh and the actions and frailty of the flesh, so you can see what spirit may be growing there, be it a church, a stranger, an enemy, or most of all, yourself.

The more I try to be like this, the less stress I have.

The less fear of being wrong.

The less need to be right.

The more social I have become.

The more TWI seclusion I have shed.

I am now a successful art consultant for the most popular mainstream Christian artist in the country. Can you imagine being in TWI and trying that one?

If you've ever worked in retail sales (even mid-to-high end art), you have to deal with all kinds. Some, even real boneheads who don't think about much beyond the thrill of owning things with a Christian label on it. And they'll even drop 5 grand on it.

But, when I am driving home at night, I pray to God I can find out what bonehead things I do before someone else does. And if they do, I hope they trying to be as forgiving as I am trying to be about it.

Anyway...

I'm feeling less and less secluded these days - doctrinally, and practically, to use the 'ole vernacular.

I wish I could make it all the out to Plot's church at least once.

Todd

Met him in a park in 1993 in Las Vegas.

I was a W.O.W. doing my dooty ("the last wave").

The rest is, well...all-yalls know the rest.

Last I heard, he was in Atlanta.

And if you've ever heard him sing and play a 6-string, or saw him doing his best his Barney Fife impression, yood have never forgot the guy.

My email is there, JRR.

Todd...

Yeah, Gollum was the star of 2T - imo.

Zix, do you know if one person modelled the face? Or if it was all from raw CGI? Or a mix of different face models?

I doubt this is the case, but I thought he looked a bit like a characture (sp?) of William Defoe myself (with the nose removed and the eyes enlarged, of course).

Todd

Indeed. It seems that the story DOES change with the retelling of it, after all.

With pity and thanks to poor Smeagol,

Todd

I think some people have scratched the word "victim" right out of their dictionary. They still believe we are all subject to the "pure law of believing." Seems to me that the miserable comforters said the same thing to Job when he was down (whether it is a fable or not, the moral of the story is still there). "We are only victims of ourselves."

Others see a crime, and re-classify the entire species of the injured party from "human being" to "victim." As if their fates have been completely taken out of their hands, in flesh, mind and spirit. This too, seems an error of mere degrees. This victim then becomes a victim of both self and the one (if any) who sold them the idea.

Yet others have re-defined what you can become a victim of. "You can only be a victim in body (such as murder), not in mind (such as being lied to)." I guess they've never been ripped off by a false advertisment, or threatened with spiritual loss after you've already bought the promise of spiritual gain. Either that, or they forgot about it.

My point.

No one can be 100% victim, or 0% victim to anything.

But to deny the degree or dimension of victimization, is to spit in the face of the wounded.

Anyway,

Re: System of Seclusion.

It seems TWI was wrong (gasp).

Practical error does not always first lead to doctrinal error, cuz...

Mental seclusion seemed to cause the physical seclusion.

The doctrinal harm is what led to practical harm.

Todd

Steve!,

Actually, cats can and DO get depressed and destructive when they are alone for long periods of time.

Their eat, sleep, work and play cycles are about 4 times as fast as ours.

If you must leave them alone, they do better if their are other animals to interact with.

Also, if they are outdoor cats, the loneliness is not an issue at all, but then many other things will be.

Todd

Ditto on all that...

Mutts, rescues, and most of all...

...your dog is a companion, not a possession.

Good luck,

Todd

There is nothing like the look in the eyes of a pooch who just got sprung from a cage on doggie death row.

Red,

Congrats, congrats, congrats...

One for the engagement to a wonderful guy,

One for the disengagement from TWI,

And one for finding your true family again.

And I hope you and your mother can keep it real between each other, regardless of what happens next.

Keep writing it down, writing it out.

I hope you stay and post awhile.

Todd

Oh, I forgot to add...

Ex-wayfers will recognize the doctrine of "feeling-suppression" in this flik.

In fact, there are some similarities to TWI dogma in this flik that'll make your skin crawl and your mind go, "uh oh..."

If you like:

- The Matrix

- A Boy and His Dog

- Soylent Green

- Christian Bale

- Gun Fights

- Martial Arts

- Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon

- Harrison Bergeron

You might like Equilibrium.

You may even love it.

Limited release.

Only a few hundred theaters in the country.

My heart raced through half of the movie, which, for a moment, made me look around the theater to make sure there were no ?Grammaton Clerics? watching.

Huh?

Just see it if you can. I had to drive an hour to find it.

Oh yeah, I also read that some big drug companies sued over the old title and won. They probably didn?t like what was being said about government sanctioned medication abuse either.

And oh, if you like puppies.

One scene will make you cry for pain.

Then another will make you cry for joy.

In the end scenes, the irony made me cheer outloud (and yeah, I was the only one in that theater who did ? go figure).

Sirguessalot?

It was autumn of 1996.

There were only 12 of us:

One couple.

2 females.

The rest--guys.

The 25th in-res with us--about 20 of them.

No surprise, but I heard that only a few made it all the way.

Mike,

I know yer busy. I'll send another email.

BTW, 27 years? That's it, and yer done? I would be impressed if...

Sorry, I promised to leave the thread.

Carry on.

Mike,

I have a feeling you believe your are only here at the GSC to call out the lost sheep of the house of Wierwille, of which, I am not (TWI 92-97) - but why don't you at least throw me a freakin' bone!

You inspired some questions from me, and I responded to some of your posts, and even sent you a few emails, yet you have completely avoided addressing any of them.

Am I at the bottom of your list of potential followers or sumthin?

Do I lack the TWI pedigree you seek for your new group, based on DR's last teaching?

Honestly, I'm not whining for attention. It just looks like what I thought I was seeing is just turning out to be you spiritually masturbating (now that the miserable comforters have failed).

I never sat at the feet of your master, but I spent many years of hours cracking open Vic's works and methods til the wee hours, while everyone else around me seemed busy parroting dogma. My results were often less than popular, because I refused to use Wayspeak when explaining them.

Anyway, respond to an e-mail if you like. But I'm becoming less and less interested in what you have to say as the clock ticks by. And I'm less interested in a public dialogue with you.

A few more weeks or days, and I'll be gone as usual for a year or so. If GSC is still here when I get back (and I'm willing to bet it will be), my hope is that you'll have met a simpler God.

One last thing...

Will you not at least concede for a moment and admit that it is possible that VPW was not the creator's latest greatest spokesperson to come along in 2000 years?

Is it possible, Mike?

I think you've said that you have answered this before, and I believe you. But will you not do it again for a new crowd, a new day, a new time? A renewal?

Really, you don't have to be so afraid to be wrong again. You have a net, remember?

I'll leave yer thread now.

Find me elswhere if yer interested.

[This message was edited by sirguessalot on January 06, 2003 at 14:05.]

OCD,

Shhhh. I'm trying to get into character.

I think my scene is coming up.

What's my line?

What's my motivation?

Where's my (bleep)ing agent?

I can't work under these (bleep)damn conditions!

snarf!

(end of derail)

I agree.

The GSC does have an element of taboo - its own dogma brewing, and it also has its factions, though these will never be as defined as TWI. They are there, nonetheless. All gatherings have them.

And I don't think Mike's head is much farther up his arse than any of the rest of us. Compared to some, maybe even less. His present logical obsession just happens to be the very antagonist of this site. Lucky him.

Mike, please stick around. I like reading your posts. They are inspiring. Like I may have mentioned before, I think your willingness to forgive is noble and rare. I appreciate it.

But here's another "classic" you might wanna revisit:

"Bear with me a little, and I will show that there are yet words to speak on God's behalf. I will fetch my knowledge from afar; I will ascribe righteousness to my Maker. For truly my words are not false; one who is perfect in knowledge is with you."

~ Elihu to the man who was down (You know the book and chapter).

...I'm still waiting.

And Mike, don't close yourself off from learning here (if you haven't already figured that out). And I don't mean in the "behold the ants" sense, but a gen-you-wine respect for the truths of the GSC. There are some giants here (whether they know it or not). Let them change your life.

Raphael 1969,

FYI,

2+2 does equal 5.

If...

...each one has a hidden quarter attached.

But only the enlightened know this two-bit secret.

(snarf)

In defense of the “gray”…

(caution – it has been a few hours since a customer walked in the gallery, so this’ll be kinda long. Oh well, I had fun writing it.)

Mike,

I hope my being in TWI-2 and never having made it to reverend or corps will keep you from reading or responding.

You wrote:

“Moderates and middle-of-the-roaders, people who think Dr’s material was in the gray area between good and evil, should be challenged by Dr’s extreme assertions to get off the fence and decide which extreme he is in. His claims prove that he was either extremely right or extremely right. His claims force us to either totally reject his writings or totally accept them (in quality not quantity). His claims make dwelling in the gray area illogical.”

Illogical? Really?

Heerz some heavy bible rhetoric, (for anyone reading, of course, not just Mike):

Last I checked a bible, The God was the only truly singular thing. The Christ was the only truly dual thing (the alpha and omega, having experienced the beginning and the end and back again). Us more complex folk exist in the great wide somewhere between God and nothing called creation, which seems quite a vast place to dismiss as irrelevant.

Is either a man’s ministries or his sins less complex than even his own personal self?

Can you really boil him down to two things?

All good? All evil? All right? All wrong?

And will one element define the entire mixture? Even the dominant or most potent one?

Whenever someone draws a line and defines two extremes, I hafta ask myself, “Who drew this particular line?” And so, logically, “whose definitions of extremes am I being offered?”

And even if a man was to discover a part of the line (that God drew) while digging in the evergrowing mountain of books and knowledge, how can he really know the full ends of it when the only ends he sees are those at each side of his own little hole?

How can we “logically” claim one man’s ministry as THE alpha and omega?

Is any one’s version of another’s version of “yes or no” really a question we must answer?

Did Vic’s ministry really become as simple and pure and complete as Christ’s, as to be reduced to two such pure dimensions?

Did not Paul express a manifold grace and a multi-dimensional ministry?

Heck, any crooked politician can define an alpha and omega to move and herd people?

And he may even believe it.

Also, why is gray deemed so unimportant by so many?

Isn’t the flesh of our brain gray?

Is gray maybe just the blur I see when I am breaking my neck to find two extremes of truth at the expense of all those infinite truths “in the midst” of us?

Besides, no matter how I try to separate gray, there are always THREE primary colors in it, NEVER just two.

Blue

Gold

Red

Same with brown (a primary and a secondary, which is a mix of two primaries).

So, why not a call it a “brown area?”

Your flesh and hair are degrees of brown.

The wood of "trees" are more or less brown.

Or, why not call it the “prismatic area” between pure light and not light?

Why neglect the full spectrum of creation? Is that not where truth is given?

So...

Is the fence really that narrow?

And if so, aren’t bible fans proud of the fact that Jesus’s path was narrow, too?

Does this narrow path draw a line BETWEEN God (life) and nothing (death)?

Or does it connect them?

Both?

Wasn’t it the tree of knowledge of (BOTH) good and evil that Adam and Eve were not to F with? The one in the MIDST of the garden? Cuz it was for knowledge, not fuel?

Is not the tree of life in the MIDST of the garden as well?

Does not the flaming sword turn EVERY WAY to guard the tree of life?

Are we to strive for BALANCE?

Or strive for PERFECTION?

Is not extreme balance also a perfection?

Finally, let me ask you this, PFAL fans,

If we eliminate the relevance of the middle mind, what are we really eliminating?

Alignment?

Harmony?

Would not the power of an INWARD man live in the center, or middle of us (where else would it be if it is an inner man? On the tip of our nose?).

Todd…

(How can I ask questions if all I already have the answers?)

I agree with EWB...

GSCers,

I'm glad most of you are lightening up on Mike a bit. You can get mostly petty and a even little vicious.

but...

Mike,

Try widening the lense on that telescope. Maybe find out how to swivel it to look at other bodies.

And as long your forgiving the sins of Victor to see underlying truths (truly noble, IMO), try forgiving a few sins of Catholics, Protestants, Atheists, Taoists, Mormens, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Dead Heads and Bohemians while yer at it. You might be surprised. Heck, you may find that someone has hit a few richer veins than ole' Vic ever could have.

And hey, answer an email sometime, will ya?

Todd...

He said "ran all 15 balls," didn't he?

I heard it clearly.

And I have never heard of a game where one wins by sinkin' all 15 balls. As soon as he missed, his opponent could sink one and neither would be able to win.

Therefore, such a game does not exist. ha!

;)-->

snooker? how do ya play? (another thread, maybe?)